Soloers are not crying for an easy button, they are asking only for an alternate method to the same results. If you are a pro-grouper and resent another player from getting the same gear you did without grouping, even if it's a much longer way, ask yourself why.
Oh yes they are. Gouping by its very nature is a challenge all on its own. Putting up with jerks, bad players (usually the consistent soloers) , know-it-alls and pervs, etc etc. is a game all by its self. And this has been beaten to death but I'll repeat, if the SAME gear is attainable via soloing, no one would group. Tabula Rasa was like that. It's now defunct.
Soloers are not crying for an easy button, they are asking only for an alternate method to the same results. If you are a pro-grouper and resent another player from getting the same gear you did without grouping, even if it's a much longer way, ask yourself why.
Oh yes they are. Gouping by its very nature is a challenge all on its own. Putting up with jerks, bad players (usually the consistent soloers) , know-it-alls and pervs, etc etc. is a game all by its self. And this has been beaten to death but I'll repeat, if the SAME gear is attainable via soloing, no one would group. Tabula Rasa was like that. It's now defunct.
This.
I find it extremely ironic that the people who enjoy to solo more than group want to get the same rewards via solo play as you can by group play. This would, of course, make it so that soloing would be the obvious and easy route to go. Nobody would group, and thus you would be FORCING everybody to solo rather than group, because what is the use in grouping if you can get the same gear and exp in 1/3 the time by soloing?
And please, don't give me any of that "OH BUT IT WOULD TAKE THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME! MAYBE MORE!" Bullcrap. No. No it wouldn't. Take out the time of getting a group together, and all the things having to do with different schedules and delays, and you'll get gear MUCH faster, regardless of if it takes you longer to complete the actual content.
Again, the solo players in this thread demanding that they should get the same rewards for soloing are indirectly trying to making it so that grouping is no longer done at all. That means those of you claiming you're being forced, and then demanding that you should be able to solo the same content with the same rewards are stone-cold hypocrites.
Seeing as you can't discuss this without being rude... Ah yes, because I spend my days being told that if I ever solo, I should go away and play another game, the second I suggest the same sort of thing to a pro-grouper, I'm being rude. Cry me a river. You don't see it as an issue because you like these games to be easy. Easy? I'm soloing content that it takes you an entire group to complete! How is that easy? I've got to fulfill all of the functions of an entire group myself, I have to tank, I have to heal, I have to do it all. If anything, *YOU* are the one who is making it easy, not me. I don't play any of these games any more. The harder, older games got too old and the new games all got too easy to suit people like you. No doubt the people who want it to be easy are the majority and so it makes sense to design games for them. However there's probably "enough" people who'd want to play a more challenging game to make it profitable as long as the company involved wasn't aiming at a WoW level of success and only spent as much money as could be paid back by a level of subs lower than WoW numbers. Then if you're not playing, what do you care? I'm sorry that you equate solo with easy, it's just not so. It's much *HARDER* to solo than it is to drag along a whole team. Groupers are the ones who want the game to be risk free, that's why they've got an entire support team on their side!
Phew, okay. Let me see if I can get this right. The people who enjoy soloing want to be able to get the same kind of gear and accomplishments as the people who play with a group, right? Sorry guys, but if you take a second to step back, that doesn't make any sense at all. You wanna be able to take your one warrior and kill something it took five other people to kill successfully, then you wanna loot it all on your own? Eventually, sure. I don't think anyone's arguing that you ought to be able to do it at the same level as the team, but if that level 50 team killed the boss and you come back as a solo at level 80 and do it, what's the problem with that? And yes, if you do all the work, you deserve all the loot. But you didn't do all the work. You didn't work on creating the group. You didn't plan in advance coordinating many individuals to show up at the right time and place. You didn't do the work in holding the group together. You didn't use coordinated attack patterns with others of varying abilities. The truth is you don't want to do the work; you just want to get the loot. Of course you did all the work, you walked in, you fought the boss, you won. That's all the work there was to that encounter. The person on the team did all the extra work because they were unable to defeat the boss themselves, that's why they have to share the loot with all the people they took with them. Ok, so here's the problem with that. ATM, you can't walk in fight the boss and win. The mob is too difficult. Your entire point is that you want them to make the harder targets easier so you can kill them by yourself. Why should you get just as good an item from killing an easier version of the mob I needed to group to take down? So not only did you skip the work I mentioned above, you also want the mob to be dumbed down but you want the rewards to be the same. Face the simple fact that you want better stuff for doing less. No, you're right, ATM I can't. But there are plenty of places in the game that a team, no matter how good, can't walk in and fight high-level bosses and win either. A level 10 team, no matter how well twinked, is going to get slaughtered by an end-game boss. Do you complain about it? Should high-level toons be able to forever deny you from getting uber boss loot because you have to wait until the boss is easier? You're not even listening to your own arguments, everything you say about soloers is equally applicable to teams. Everyone has to wait until the target is close enough to beat. Teams can simply do it a few levels earlier than soloers, therefore they get the uber loot a few levels sooner. Besides, you're still not explaining why it matters to you what anyone else does. Why are your cyber feelings so hurt by people getting the same gear? It's just pixels. And think about your lvl 50 team vs. 80 soloer - you can do that now for god's sake and no one is preventing you. Or did you mean to imply the Uber Sword of Destruction should scale with your lvl? Because logically, everyone would just wait to get the lvl 80 solo version instead of doing, yes - I said it - ALL THE HARD WORK at lvl 50 for a sword that would become obsolete vs. the uber lvl 80 solo version. Maybe so, maybe not. The point is, the pro-grouping people want to exclude soloers from *EVER* getting the sword, regardless of level, because if someone can solo for the sword at any level, somehow that makes getting it as part of a team less of an accomplishment. That's complete crap. It isn't that I "want" to exclude soloers from the same loot as me; it's that it doesn't track with any since of reality. A difficult task that can only be accomplished by a team reaps better rewards than the same task dumbed down for a solo player. Again, you want to reap the same benefits for doing less; there is no way around it. You want devs to dumb down bosses so you can solo them and get the same loot as the version it took a coordinated team to take down. It is the entire premise of the post. And it is simply selfishness and unrealistic; and frankly a bit childish. That is what is complete crap. You want the fat loot? Get off your ass and learn to work with others. You don't want to work with others, stop playing team sports. Sorry, but that's what singleplayer games are for. Singleplayer games are *gasp* more geared towards soloing than games that obviously favor mutiplayer social interaction. Unplug the connection, get to Walmart, and get yourself some god-damn 1995 singleplayer game. Solo players pay the same subscription fee that team-players pay. Do try again, won't you? They can play however the hell they want to play and you have absolutely no say in it. That sort of explains why you're bitching about it on an MMO forum. And I could pay the same green fees at Pebble Beach as you, but I wouldn't use that as an excuse at the clubhouse when complaining that I brought my basketball so they owe me a team game instead of golf. You cannot enter a team game and complain that it isn't solo based. You can't bring your golf ball and clubs to the basketball court and expect it to be a solo game. You can pay the same green fees at Pebble Beach and play alone as the group of people who does it and plays as a team. It's your choice which way you play, the fact that I might play alone in no way affects your game with your team. That's the point. What difference does it make if someone decides to play alone, how does that demonstrably harm you? If it somehow hurts your feelings, then the problem is you, not the soloer. Apparently you don't understand golf at all. You play along side others; but you are playing a solo game. Your score is independent of those you are playing with; in a sense, you are playing 'against' those you are with if you are a gambler. Which is exactly what you want in an mmo. Problem is you want to play golf on the baseball field, while others are playing baseball. I'm starting to think you aren't very old. But you don't recognize that you're the one who is imposing these rules on MMOs that even the people who make them don't impose. You're pulling these rules out of thin air. Ask the devs of any game out there, they'll all tell you that their games are made specifically to be soloed or teamed, not one or the other. You're making up your own rules and then getting pissed off when others aren't playing by them. The problem isn't that you spend as much money, it's that you are spending your money on something you didn't want in the first place. That money excuse is so ridiculous. Did the publisher force you to open your wallet for a game you don't really want to play?.....I mean take some personal responsibility for your own choices.
Amazing how you think you can determine what people want and what they don't want. Didn't know you were so amazingly psychic. The publisher took my money and didn't bother to ask how I wanted to play, didn't care how I wanted to play. In fact, the only people who seem to care how soloers play are people for whom it's none of their goddamn business.
That would be you. Amazing how you think you can determine what people want and what they don't want. Didn't know you were so amazingly psychic. What if I were to tell you that I solo'd 90% of the time. What if I were to tell you I was primarily a soloer who actually understands that team work is more difficult to accomplish and more difficult to execute than soloing which is why, as a mature adult, I accept that my soloing will not reap the same rewards as team play. What if you knew that as a soloer, I am not so selfish and material driven to want more for less? You are right, I don't know you any more than you know me. But I do know, based on your own written words, that you want to get the same rewards without going to all the effort. I know because it is what you said. I also know that's selfish and childish and misguided. You may not be, but certainly that aspect of you is. And what do you know of me now? That I solo most of the time and still understand and accept that my solo rewards will logically be less than my team rewards. So what we are really learning is that you are the one without a clear grasp of what 'soloer's' want. Your last statement is ridiculous. If how you want to solo is none of my business, then how we team is none of yours. So stop trying to change my team based game to your solo version game; because under your own logic, it isn't any of your goddamn business. And as for the money; the publisher didn't TAKE your money. The publisher offered you a team game. You GAVE him your money for it. And now you complained that you were offered a TEAM game. Again, the moment you start taking the responsibility for your own choices the closer to adulthood you will get. My God I hope you are under 25 or else this is just pathetic. /thread No, they didn't offer a team game. They offered a game that could specifically be played team or solo. *YOU* are the one that doesn't like the fact that people can play solo, not the devs, not the manufacturer, *YOU*. Apparently, you think very highly of your own opinion. Good thing you're not in charge.
My biggest gripe with grouping - and what made me go SOLO to begin with - is that my past experience was with people who advertise for group members for a quest and then when we get to the quest they take all of the goodies and when they achieve their goals they just bail out and leave me in the midst of deep S**T.
Exactly. As I've pointed out before, the group dynamic in just about every MMO exists for using others for your own ends. Every member of the group is after their own XP, their own loot, their own uber-gear, they're just using the other group members to have a better chance at getting it faster and easier. There's no commitment to the group itself, only to your own wants and desires, when you stop getting what you want, what's the point of sticking around to help others?
It wasn't always like that though. I think the soloer mentality really brought that whole attitude you just described to the forefront. Players used to be fine having to group to get levels because that was the only way they could level. If you were a jerk or a loot whore, you didn't get groups and you didnt level, because attitude and reputation meant everything. In todays solo-infested games, the only thing that matters is gear, and you can be a complete idiot and asshole and still get in groups, because it seems like most players are the same way; selfish, ignorant assholes who would rather play by themselves, and only play an MMO so they can show off their gear.
There was a time when these games were made for a small audience of hardcore players who lived on their computers, there were always lots of people around (lots being a relative term) and they were after a hardcore challenge. That part is fine, as far as it goes, but that tiny group of people who populated those games is now a minuscule part of the marketplace. Games no longer can survive catering to that particular mindset, they have to cater to a larger, more diverse, more casual set of gamers who don't always have the time to find a group, don't always have the time to commit to a group, they want content that they can get on, play through and get off. That's the reality whether you like it or not.
There was a point in time, way back when, that computer users had to huddle together in user groups to have any hope of figuring out their computers because they were difficult to use and you needed to share information between people. Today, computers are almost idiot proof out of the box. Times change. Maybe it's time you did too.
There was a time when these games were made for a small audience of hardcore players who lived on their computers, there were always lots of people around (lots being a relative term) and they were after a hardcore challenge. That part is fine, as far as it goes, but that tiny group of people who populated those games is now a minuscule part of the marketplace. Games no longer can survive catering to that particular mindset, they have to cater to a larger, more diverse, more casual set of gamers who don't always have the time to find a group, don't always have the time to commit to a group, they want content that they can get on, play through and get off. That's the reality whether you like it or not. There was a point in time, way back when, that computer users had to huddle together in user groups to have any hope of figuring out their computers because they were difficult to use and you needed to share information between people. Today, computers are almost idiot proof out of the box. Times change. Maybe it's time you did too.
I dont think anyones disagreeing with the fact that times have changed and game devs need to develop methods and means for casual players. I think what people are saying is that it isnt feasible or wise to enable soloers/casuals to obtain the SAME gear as those that devote more time and effort in groups/raids. If everyone can get the top gear via soloing, EVERYONE would do it. The game would then lose the portion of players that prefer grouping/raiding.
Disregarding the seven pages before me: because they can't balance only solo play or only group play...
People in this thread don't care about balance (because it is being done is some games and they just don't want to hear).
This is just the old WoW pro-raid / anti-raid debate that has been going on in WoW forums for years.
Many MMOs don't even have this issue, as far as I'm concerned they should just move this thread and the other one just like to the WoW section.
And for the record I find WAR's public groups to be to perfect balance. Because I can still solo and get group rewards. Because one can play a very solo style in a public group.
There was a time when these games were made for a small audience of hardcore players who lived on their computers, there were always lots of people around (lots being a relative term) and they were after a hardcore challenge. That part is fine, as far as it goes, but that tiny group of people who populated those games is now a minuscule part of the marketplace. Games no longer can survive catering to that particular mindset, they have to cater to a larger, more diverse, more casual set of gamers who don't always have the time to find a group, don't always have the time to commit to a group, they want content that they can get on, play through and get off. That's the reality whether you like it or not. There was a point in time, way back when, that computer users had to huddle together in user groups to have any hope of figuring out their computers because they were difficult to use and you needed to share information between people. Today, computers are almost idiot proof out of the box. Times change. Maybe it's time you did too.
I dont think anyones disagreeing with the fact that times have changed and game devs need to develop methods and means for casual players. I think what people are saying is that it isnt feasible or wise to enable soloers/casuals to obtain the SAME gear as those that devote more time and effort in groups/raids. If everyone can get the top gear via soloing, EVERYONE would do it. The game would then lose the portion of players that prefer grouping/raiding.
You just contradicted yourself. You just said everyone would solo the content if they could. Why would they leave? I you gave them the option of soloing it, or grouping it, and they would rather solo it, why should they leave? They're doing what they would prefer doing to get the same content.
All you, and those like you, are doing is trying to justify the fact that you want people to be forced to group if they want to achieve exclusively superior rewards. It doesn't matter if it takes the soloer a longer time than the accumlated hours of everyone involved in a raid, or if their solo-tuned content is actually harder, or if it would take the casual player 2 years of real time to get an equal reward that you got in 2 months, you don't want them to **ever** get it. It's not about how easy or hard it is, nor is it about how much time it takes; it's actually about getting the EXCLUSIVITY of the superior reward. If you can't have something that **most** other players don't have and cannot get, you don't enjoy the game.
The sad, hypocritical part of this is that without that ocean of soloers and casual groupers and occasional groupers and non-raiders and non-powergamers, you don't have anyone to feel superior to, which is why you argue and rant against developers even MAKING a game that caters to casuals and solers - that ocean of players would abandon your self-serving caste-system MMOGs in droves and head over to where they aren't coded in as the scrubs and red-headed stepchildren.
You EXPECT them to play and play in huge numbers in your game, financing your self-serving expansions and "end-game" content, where if you had to switch positions with them and settle for 3rd rate common rewards you wouldn't even play, and you have the nerve to tell them that THEY are greedy loot-whores because they aren't satisfied being your peasants and commoners.
So you are saying there are not a lot of groupers who are jerks and do the group thing to get what they want and then leave the group?
They get to endgame by soloing and then do that..
If grouping is encouraged from the first levels, those kind of jerks will be kicked out of groups sooner or later and can't progress further. Still, some idiots will get through the sieve, but there will be much less of those players around than usually.
even jerks pay the sub and have a right to play, thus making yet more solo players. those who are jerks and no one groups with, and those who dislike groups because of all the jerks and prefer to do it their selves, and also me who likes the challenge of soloing. Forced grouping is pointless, balanced play is better. I am not saying that all gear/loot should be accesible to both styles - but if I can solo it(due to my skill at playing and my knowledge of my character's strengths and weaknesses) I should be able to. Note: I need a new keyboard, keys are sticking - please excuse my typos - the q key seems to show up when ever it pleases.
But that's not balance, you're just asking for a solo game.
You have a skewed idea of the definition of balance. Grouping and group based games are not about balance nor do they define it. Every MMO gives groupers the better deal, bar none. So screw you if we think we deserve to have at least one MMO that caters to us without making us second class gamers.
There is no point in arguing. Groupers have an agenda and soloers have an agenda. Groupers have always had the upper hand when it comes to a game's reward system and they can't stand the thought of sharing. The very definition of greed and entitlement. I can hear the school yard bully from my past......my play style is better than yours noob.........
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
There was a time when these games were made for a small audience of hardcore players who lived on their computers, there were always lots of people around (lots being a relative term) and they were after a hardcore challenge. That part is fine, as far as it goes, but that tiny group of people who populated those games is now a minuscule part of the marketplace. Games no longer can survive catering to that particular mindset, they have to cater to a larger, more diverse, more casual set of gamers who don't always have the time to find a group, don't always have the time to commit to a group, they want content that they can get on, play through and get off. That's the reality whether you like it or not. There was a point in time, way back when, that computer users had to huddle together in user groups to have any hope of figuring out their computers because they were difficult to use and you needed to share information between people. Today, computers are almost idiot proof out of the box. Times change. Maybe it's time you did too.
I dont think anyones disagreeing with the fact that times have changed and game devs need to develop methods and means for casual players. I think what people are saying is that it isnt feasible or wise to enable soloers/casuals to obtain the SAME gear as those that devote more time and effort in groups/raids. If everyone can get the top gear via soloing, EVERYONE would do it. The game would then lose the portion of players that prefer grouping/raiding.
Who gives a crap about them, they are the minoirty that have dominated the market for far too long. You are outnumbered and who exactly do you think companies should be trying to keep?
Effort invested into a game is relative to the player, Your arbitrary standard is the exact reason why mainstream looks down on this industry as a bunch of freakish nerds with no life.
It's time to move away from the hardcore, second job style MMOs and venture into main stream entertainment. You may not like it, but there are a LOT more people who would.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Soloers are not crying for an easy button, they are asking only for an alternate method to the same results. If you are a pro-grouper and resent another player from getting the same gear you did without grouping, even if it's a much longer way, ask yourself why.
Oh yes they are. Gouping by its very nature is a challenge all on its own. Putting up with jerks, bad players (usually the consistent soloers) , know-it-alls and pervs, etc etc. is a game all by its self. And this has been beaten to death but I'll repeat, if the SAME gear is attainable via soloing, no one would group. Tabula Rasa was like that. It's now defunct.
Show me proof that soloing was even in the top 10 reasons why Tabula Rasa failed. You people are grasping at straws with these unsubstantiated claims.
What we do know is that the genre has expanded exponentially since it became more casual and solo friendly. You do the frakking math.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
There was a time when these games were made for a small audience of hardcore players who lived on their computers, there were always lots of people around (lots being a relative term) and they were after a hardcore challenge. That part is fine, as far as it goes, but that tiny group of people who populated those games is now a minuscule part of the marketplace. Games no longer can survive catering to that particular mindset, they have to cater to a larger, more diverse, more casual set of gamers who don't always have the time to find a group, don't always have the time to commit to a group, they want content that they can get on, play through and get off. That's the reality whether you like it or not. There was a point in time, way back when, that computer users had to huddle together in user groups to have any hope of figuring out their computers because they were difficult to use and you needed to share information between people. Today, computers are almost idiot proof out of the box. Times change. Maybe it's time you did too.
I dont think anyones disagreeing with the fact that times have changed and game devs need to develop methods and means for casual players. I think what people are saying is that it isnt feasible or wise to enable soloers/casuals to obtain the SAME gear as those that devote more time and effort in groups/raids. If everyone can get the top gear via soloing, EVERYONE would do it. The game would then lose the portion of players that prefer grouping/raiding.
You just contradicted yourself. You just said everyone would solo the content if they could. Why would they leave? I you gave them the option of soloing it, or grouping it, and they would rather solo it, why should they leave? They're doing what they would prefer doing to get the same content.
All you, and those like you, are doing is trying to justify the fact that you want people to be forced to group if they want to achieve exclusively superior rewards. It doesn't matter if it takes the soloer a longer time than the accumlated hours of everyone involved in a raid, or if their solo-tuned content is actually harder, or if it would take the casual player 2 years of real time to get an equal reward that you got in 2 months, you don't want them to **ever** get it. It's not about how easy or hard it is, nor is it about how much time it takes; it's actually about getting the EXCLUSIVITY of the superior reward. If you can't have something that **most** other players don't have and cannot get, you don't enjoy the game.
The sad, hypocritical part of this is that without that ocean of soloers and casual groupers and occasional groupers and non-raiders and non-powergamers, you don't have anyone to feel superior to, which is why you argue and rant against developers even MAKING a game that caters to casuals and solers - that ocean of players would abandon your self-serving caste-system MMOGs in droves and head over to where they aren't coded in as the scrubs and red-headed stepchildren.
You EXPECT them to play and play in huge numbers in your game, financing your self-serving expansions and "end-game" content, where if you had to switch positions with them and settle for 3rd rate common rewards you wouldn't even play, and you have the nerve to tell them that THEY are greedy loot-whores because they aren't satisfied being your peasants and commoners.
Exactly.
The very same reason why PvP oriented games don't want casuals to be able to compete. You gotta have that fodder running around so you can vent your nerd rage.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Oh yes they are. Gouping by its very nature is a challenge all on its own. Putting up with jerks, bad players (usually the consistent soloers) , know-it-alls and pervs, etc etc. is a game all by its self. And this has been beaten to death but I'll repeat, if the SAME gear is attainable via soloing, no one would group. Tabula Rasa was like that. It's now defunct.
False as proven by CoH/CoV. A game that is solo-able, didn't even have gear, and yet most people grouped.
Which is why I play CoH/CoV for 5 years and I didn't play WoW.
So you are saying there are not a lot of groupers who are jerks and do the group thing to get what they want and then leave the group?
They get to endgame by soloing and then do that..
If grouping is encouraged from the first levels, those kind of jerks will be kicked out of groups sooner or later and can't progress further. Still, some idiots will get through the sieve, but there will be much less of those players around than usually.
even jerks pay the sub and have a right to play, thus making yet more solo players. those who are jerks and no one groups with, and those who dislike groups because of all the jerks and prefer to do it their selves, and also me who likes the challenge of soloing. Forced grouping is pointless, balanced play is better. I am not saying that all gear/loot should be accesible to both styles - but if I can solo it(due to my skill at playing and my knowledge of my character's strengths and weaknesses) I should be able to. Note: I need a new keyboard, keys are sticking - please excuse my typos - the q key seems to show up when ever it pleases.
But that's not balance, you're just asking for a solo game.
You read but do not comprehend, you wish some one to blame for you're not being able to find a group so those who solo come to hand. We are not the problem, nor is balanced game play.
the problem, I fear is that you will never be satisfied unless the game is exactly as You want it, and it will probably never be even if there is nothing that can be done by solo play.
Oh yes they are. Gouping by its very nature is a challenge all on its own. Putting up with jerks, bad players (usually the consistent soloers) , know-it-alls and pervs, etc etc. is a game all by its self. And this has been beaten to death but I'll repeat, if the SAME gear is attainable via soloing, no one would group. Tabula Rasa was like that. It's now defunct.
False as proven by CoH/CoV. A game that is solo-able, didn't even have gear, and yet most people grouped.
Which is why I play CoH/CoV for 5 years and I didn't play WoW.
I agree - in CoV I just solo'd a character to lvl 10. From my experience, though, it gets harder at this point to solo. One can, but to do so means doing quests at a low reputation and takes far longer. If you group you can set the rep high - more mobs, more xp and quicker leveling results.
There was a time when these games were made for a small audience of hardcore players who lived on their computers, there were always lots of people around (lots being a relative term) and they were after a hardcore challenge. That part is fine, as far as it goes, but that tiny group of people who populated those games is now a minuscule part of the marketplace. Games no longer can survive catering to that particular mindset, they have to cater to a larger, more diverse, more casual set of gamers who don't always have the time to find a group, don't always have the time to commit to a group, they want content that they can get on, play through and get off. That's the reality whether you like it or not. There was a point in time, way back when, that computer users had to huddle together in user groups to have any hope of figuring out their computers because they were difficult to use and you needed to share information between people. Today, computers are almost idiot proof out of the box. Times change. Maybe it's time you did too.
I dont think anyones disagreeing with the fact that times have changed and game devs need to develop methods and means for casual players. I think what people are saying is that it isnt feasible or wise to enable soloers/casuals to obtain the SAME gear as those that devote more time and effort in groups/raids. If everyone can get the top gear via soloing, EVERYONE would do it. The game would then lose the portion of players that prefer grouping/raiding.
You just contradicted yourself. You just said everyone would solo the content if they could. Why would they leave? I you gave them the option of soloing it, or grouping it, and they would rather solo it, why should they leave? They're doing what they would prefer doing to get the same content.
All you, and those like you, are doing is trying to justify the fact that you want people to be forced to group if they want to achieve exclusively superior rewards. It doesn't matter if it takes the soloer a longer time than the accumlated hours of everyone involved in a raid, or if their solo-tuned content is actually harder, or if it would take the casual player 2 years of real time to get an equal reward that you got in 2 months, you don't want them to **ever** get it. It's not about how easy or hard it is, nor is it about how much time it takes; it's actually about getting the EXCLUSIVITY of the superior reward. If you can't have something that **most** other players don't have and cannot get, you don't enjoy the game.
The sad, hypocritical part of this is that without that ocean of soloers and casual groupers and occasional groupers and non-raiders and non-powergamers, you don't have anyone to feel superior to, which is why you argue and rant against developers even MAKING a game that caters to casuals and solers - that ocean of players would abandon your self-serving caste-system MMOGs in droves and head over to where they aren't coded in as the scrubs and red-headed stepchildren.
You EXPECT them to play and play in huge numbers in your game, financing your self-serving expansions and "end-game" content, where if you had to switch positions with them and settle for 3rd rate common rewards you wouldn't even play, and you have the nerve to tell them that THEY are greedy loot-whores because they aren't satisfied being your peasants and commoners.
Exactly.
The very same reason why PvP oriented games don't want casuals to be able to compete. You gotta have that fodder running around so you can vent your nerd rage.
once again the linkage between casuals and solo. Many of us who solo play put in as many if not more hours on the game as groupers. Since things are easier to do in a group I think it is you groupers who are the "Casual" players.
There was a time when these games were made for a small audience of hardcore players who lived on their computers, there were always lots of people around (lots being a relative term) and they were after a hardcore challenge. That part is fine, as far as it goes, but that tiny group of people who populated those games is now a minuscule part of the marketplace. Games no longer can survive catering to that particular mindset, they have to cater to a larger, more diverse, more casual set of gamers who don't always have the time to find a group, don't always have the time to commit to a group, they want content that they can get on, play through and get off. That's the reality whether you like it or not. There was a point in time, way back when, that computer users had to huddle together in user groups to have any hope of figuring out their computers because they were difficult to use and you needed to share information between people. Today, computers are almost idiot proof out of the box. Times change. Maybe it's time you did too.
I dont think anyones disagreeing with the fact that times have changed and game devs need to develop methods and means for casual players. I think what people are saying is that it isnt feasible or wise to enable soloers/casuals to obtain the SAME gear as those that devote more time and effort in groups/raids. If everyone can get the top gear via soloing, EVERYONE would do it. The game would then lose the portion of players that prefer grouping/raiding.
You just contradicted yourself. You just said everyone would solo the content if they could. Why would they leave? I you gave them the option of soloing it, or grouping it, and they would rather solo it, why should they leave? They're doing what they would prefer doing to get the same content.
All you, and those like you, are doing is trying to justify the fact that you want people to be forced to group if they want to achieve exclusively superior rewards. It doesn't matter if it takes the soloer a longer time than the accumlated hours of everyone involved in a raid, or if their solo-tuned content is actually harder, or if it would take the casual player 2 years of real time to get an equal reward that you got in 2 months, you don't want them to **ever** get it. It's not about how easy or hard it is, nor is it about how much time it takes; it's actually about getting the EXCLUSIVITY of the superior reward. If you can't have something that **most** other players don't have and cannot get, you don't enjoy the game.
The sad, hypocritical part of this is that without that ocean of soloers and casual groupers and occasional groupers and non-raiders and non-powergamers, you don't have anyone to feel superior to, which is why you argue and rant against developers even MAKING a game that caters to casuals and solers - that ocean of players would abandon your self-serving caste-system MMOGs in droves and head over to where they aren't coded in as the scrubs and red-headed stepchildren.
You EXPECT them to play and play in huge numbers in your game, financing your self-serving expansions and "end-game" content, where if you had to switch positions with them and settle for 3rd rate common rewards you wouldn't even play, and you have the nerve to tell them that THEY are greedy loot-whores because they aren't satisfied being your peasants and commoners.
Wrong, I am not contradicting myself. If you preferrred grouping, and players in the game knew they could get something via soloing, who would you have to group with? Getting groups would be impossible. I played TR and saw EXACTLY that happen. After a while many people just gave up trying to get groups and left. The game was left with a bunch of soloers and the game FAILED. I dont give a frakk what anyone else has to say, that was one of the MAIN reasons TR failed. No need for groups or raids. Go read their forums, its all there. I played in beta through luanch and several months after.
On your second point your getting real personal. you dont know me from adam or what I want from a game. I acutally solo alot, and I COULD CARE LESS what uber raider has to where compared to me. And there is your obvious failure: LOOT ENVY. The fact is the ONLY HYPOCRITE here is you. You resent people that want superior gear and make fun of those that prefer it. AND at the SAME TIME YOU DEMAND THAT People like you, SOLOERS, have access to it. Pathetic. Make up your mind...you want superior gear dont you? I bet you do. And like most carebears you want it for free with no work and no effort. SOMETHING FOR NOTHING. How typical.
I wish developers woould make a game for people like you, and get them out of ours. You could just log in, hit the "I WIN" button and get your purple lootz! But Im sure you would find something else to cry about.
There was a time when these games were made for a small audience of hardcore players who lived on their computers, there were always lots of people around (lots being a relative term) and they were after a hardcore challenge. That part is fine, as far as it goes, but that tiny group of people who populated those games is now a minuscule part of the marketplace. Games no longer can survive catering to that particular mindset, they have to cater to a larger, more diverse, more casual set of gamers who don't always have the time to find a group, don't always have the time to commit to a group, they want content that they can get on, play through and get off. That's the reality whether you like it or not. There was a point in time, way back when, that computer users had to huddle together in user groups to have any hope of figuring out their computers because they were difficult to use and you needed to share information between people. Today, computers are almost idiot proof out of the box. Times change. Maybe it's time you did too.
I dont think anyones disagreeing with the fact that times have changed and game devs need to develop methods and means for casual players. I think what people are saying is that it isnt feasible or wise to enable soloers/casuals to obtain the SAME gear as those that devote more time and effort in groups/raids. If everyone can get the top gear via soloing, EVERYONE would do it. The game would then lose the portion of players that prefer grouping/raiding.
Who gives a crap about them, they are the minoirty that have dominated the market for far too long. You are outnumbered and who exactly do you think companies should be trying to keep?
Effort invested into a game is relative to the player, Your arbitrary standard is the exact reason why mainstream looks down on this industry as a bunch of freakish nerds with no life.
It's time to move away from the hardcore, second job style MMOs and venture into main stream entertainment. You may not like it, but there are a LOT more people who would.
Go play your fail game man, who cares? There are plenty of solo friendly games out there, go knock yourself out. And I am sure they will be developing games for people like you, still butthurt from the high school play yard. In fact I heartily endorse them making a solo friendly carebear fail game so that you people can find somewhere to hang your hats and hopefully stop your crying Mainstream of entertainment? I thought that was done with WOW? you want it to be easier than that? lmao~!
There was a time when these games were made for a small audience of hardcore players who lived on their computers, there were always lots of people around (lots being a relative term) and they were after a hardcore challenge. That part is fine, as far as it goes, but that tiny group of people who populated those games is now a minuscule part of the marketplace. Games no longer can survive catering to that particular mindset, they have to cater to a larger, more diverse, more casual set of gamers who don't always have the time to find a group, don't always have the time to commit to a group, they want content that they can get on, play through and get off. That's the reality whether you like it or not. There was a point in time, way back when, that computer users had to huddle together in user groups to have any hope of figuring out their computers because they were difficult to use and you needed to share information between people. Today, computers are almost idiot proof out of the box. Times change. Maybe it's time you did too.
I dont think anyones disagreeing with the fact that times have changed and game devs need to develop methods and means for casual players. I think what people are saying is that it isnt feasible or wise to enable soloers/casuals to obtain the SAME gear as those that devote more time and effort in groups/raids. If everyone can get the top gear via soloing, EVERYONE would do it. The game would then lose the portion of players that prefer grouping/raiding.
Who gives a crap about them, they are the minoirty that have dominated the market for far too long. You are outnumbered and who exactly do you think companies should be trying to keep?
Effort invested into a game is relative to the player, Your arbitrary standard is the exact reason why mainstream looks down on this industry as a bunch of freakish nerds with no life.
It's time to move away from the hardcore, second job style MMOs and venture into main stream entertainment. You may not like it, but there are a LOT more people who would.
Go play your fail game man, who cares? There are plenty of solo friendly games out there, go knock yourself out. And I am sure they will be developing games for people like you, still butthurt from the high school play yard. In fact I heartily endorse them making a solo friendly carebear fail game so that you people can find somewhere to hang your hats and hopefully stop your crying Mainstream of entertainment? I thought that was done with WOW? you want it to be easier than that? lmao~!
another person with the"grouper" blinders on. Who said solo'rs want easy content. I for one enjoy the challenge of doing the quests solo, keep them hard to solo - I love it. Grouping is for those who CAN'T solo, they want an easy way to do the game. Solo'rs, or those I know anyways, prefer the harder path.
Oh yes they are. Gouping by its very nature is a challenge all on its own. Putting up with jerks, bad players (usually the consistent soloers) , know-it-alls and pervs, etc etc. is a game all by its self. And this has been beaten to death but I'll repeat, if the SAME gear is attainable via soloing, no one would group. Tabula Rasa was like that. It's now defunct.
False as proven by CoH/CoV. A game that is solo-able, didn't even have gear, and yet most people grouped.
Which is why I play CoH/CoV for 5 years and I didn't play WoW.
Good for you.
I know several people that played COX, they said its fun for a bit then they left. Maybe thats the answer, make a bunch of solable COX like games for soloers where you can log in, solo a bit and get the best gear and be happy.
another person with the"grouper" blinders on. Who said solo'rs want easy content. I for one enjoy the challenge of doing the quests solo, keep them hard to solo - I love it. Grouping is for those who CAN'T solo, they want an easy way to do the game. Solo'rs, or those I know anyways, prefer the harder path.
Not at all, I solo alot and love accomplishing stuff on my own . I just dont need to have the best gear as a raider because I could give a frakk if they are leetist or act "superior" and obviously you people DO! LOOT ENVY, in a nutshell.
BTW the hands down worst players to ever invite into a group effort are the soloists. They have zero comprehension of group dynamics and only look after themselves. Lets hope they make a space where you can all convene and stop ruining gameplay for others:)
I know several people that played COX, they said its fun for a bit then they left. Maybe thats the answer, make a bunch of solable COX like games for soloers where you can log in, solo a bit and get the best gear and be happy.
You missed the point. COX managed to be fun for soloers and fun for groupers. You don't have to group, nor do you have to solo. You group if you want to, because you find it fun, not because you must. It doesn't have to be solo game or group game, its not either or.
People don't need fancy items to group, they just need it to be fun.
Oh yes they are. Gouping by its very nature is a challenge all on its own. Putting up with jerks, bad players (usually the consistent soloers) , know-it-alls and pervs, etc etc. is a game all by its self. And this has been beaten to death but I'll repeat, if the SAME gear is attainable via soloing, no one would group. Tabula Rasa was like that. It's now defunct.
False as proven by CoH/CoV. A game that is solo-able, didn't even have gear, and yet most people grouped.
Which is why I play CoH/CoV for 5 years and I didn't play WoW.
Good for you.
I know several people that played COX, they said its fun for a bit then they left. Maybe thats the answer, make a bunch of solable COX like games for soloers where you can log in, solo a bit and get the best gear and be happy.
the true answer is for you group only people to get over yourselves.
Comments
Oh yes they are. Gouping by its very nature is a challenge all on its own. Putting up with jerks, bad players (usually the consistent soloers) , know-it-alls and pervs, etc etc. is a game all by its self. And this has been beaten to death but I'll repeat, if the SAME gear is attainable via soloing, no one would group. Tabula Rasa was like that. It's now defunct.
Current Games: WOW, EVE Online
Oh yes they are. Gouping by its very nature is a challenge all on its own. Putting up with jerks, bad players (usually the consistent soloers) , know-it-alls and pervs, etc etc. is a game all by its self. And this has been beaten to death but I'll repeat, if the SAME gear is attainable via soloing, no one would group. Tabula Rasa was like that. It's now defunct.
This.
I find it extremely ironic that the people who enjoy to solo more than group want to get the same rewards via solo play as you can by group play. This would, of course, make it so that soloing would be the obvious and easy route to go. Nobody would group, and thus you would be FORCING everybody to solo rather than group, because what is the use in grouping if you can get the same gear and exp in 1/3 the time by soloing?
And please, don't give me any of that "OH BUT IT WOULD TAKE THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME! MAYBE MORE!" Bullcrap. No. No it wouldn't. Take out the time of getting a group together, and all the things having to do with different schedules and delays, and you'll get gear MUCH faster, regardless of if it takes you longer to complete the actual content.
Again, the solo players in this thread demanding that they should get the same rewards for soloing are indirectly trying to making it so that grouping is no longer done at all. That means those of you claiming you're being forced, and then demanding that you should be able to solo the same content with the same rewards are stone-cold hypocrites.
Oh, the undeniable irony. I'm drowning in it.
/thread
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Disregarding the seven pages before me: because they can't balance only solo play or only group play...
Exactly. As I've pointed out before, the group dynamic in just about every MMO exists for using others for your own ends. Every member of the group is after their own XP, their own loot, their own uber-gear, they're just using the other group members to have a better chance at getting it faster and easier. There's no commitment to the group itself, only to your own wants and desires, when you stop getting what you want, what's the point of sticking around to help others?
It wasn't always like that though. I think the soloer mentality really brought that whole attitude you just described to the forefront. Players used to be fine having to group to get levels because that was the only way they could level. If you were a jerk or a loot whore, you didn't get groups and you didnt level, because attitude and reputation meant everything. In todays solo-infested games, the only thing that matters is gear, and you can be a complete idiot and asshole and still get in groups, because it seems like most players are the same way; selfish, ignorant assholes who would rather play by themselves, and only play an MMO so they can show off their gear.
There was a time when these games were made for a small audience of hardcore players who lived on their computers, there were always lots of people around (lots being a relative term) and they were after a hardcore challenge. That part is fine, as far as it goes, but that tiny group of people who populated those games is now a minuscule part of the marketplace. Games no longer can survive catering to that particular mindset, they have to cater to a larger, more diverse, more casual set of gamers who don't always have the time to find a group, don't always have the time to commit to a group, they want content that they can get on, play through and get off. That's the reality whether you like it or not.
There was a point in time, way back when, that computer users had to huddle together in user groups to have any hope of figuring out their computers because they were difficult to use and you needed to share information between people. Today, computers are almost idiot proof out of the box. Times change. Maybe it's time you did too.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Yeah, and now we see how the MMO's have 'developed' in the recent years because of it....
Maybe it's time to take a step back and think for a second.
I dont think anyones disagreeing with the fact that times have changed and game devs need to develop methods and means for casual players. I think what people are saying is that it isnt feasible or wise to enable soloers/casuals to obtain the SAME gear as those that devote more time and effort in groups/raids. If everyone can get the top gear via soloing, EVERYONE would do it. The game would then lose the portion of players that prefer grouping/raiding.
Current Games: WOW, EVE Online
People in this thread don't care about balance (because it is being done is some games and they just don't want to hear).
This is just the old WoW pro-raid / anti-raid debate that has been going on in WoW forums for years.
Many MMOs don't even have this issue, as far as I'm concerned they should just move this thread and the other one just like to the WoW section.
And for the record I find WAR's public groups to be to perfect balance. Because I can still solo and get group rewards. Because one can play a very solo style in a public group.
I dont think anyones disagreeing with the fact that times have changed and game devs need to develop methods and means for casual players. I think what people are saying is that it isnt feasible or wise to enable soloers/casuals to obtain the SAME gear as those that devote more time and effort in groups/raids. If everyone can get the top gear via soloing, EVERYONE would do it. The game would then lose the portion of players that prefer grouping/raiding.
You just contradicted yourself. You just said everyone would solo the content if they could. Why would they leave? I you gave them the option of soloing it, or grouping it, and they would rather solo it, why should they leave? They're doing what they would prefer doing to get the same content.
All you, and those like you, are doing is trying to justify the fact that you want people to be forced to group if they want to achieve exclusively superior rewards. It doesn't matter if it takes the soloer a longer time than the accumlated hours of everyone involved in a raid, or if their solo-tuned content is actually harder, or if it would take the casual player 2 years of real time to get an equal reward that you got in 2 months, you don't want them to **ever** get it. It's not about how easy or hard it is, nor is it about how much time it takes; it's actually about getting the EXCLUSIVITY of the superior reward. If you can't have something that **most** other players don't have and cannot get, you don't enjoy the game.
The sad, hypocritical part of this is that without that ocean of soloers and casual groupers and occasional groupers and non-raiders and non-powergamers, you don't have anyone to feel superior to, which is why you argue and rant against developers even MAKING a game that caters to casuals and solers - that ocean of players would abandon your self-serving caste-system MMOGs in droves and head over to where they aren't coded in as the scrubs and red-headed stepchildren.
You EXPECT them to play and play in huge numbers in your game, financing your self-serving expansions and "end-game" content, where if you had to switch positions with them and settle for 3rd rate common rewards you wouldn't even play, and you have the nerve to tell them that THEY are greedy loot-whores because they aren't satisfied being your peasants and commoners.
They get to endgame by soloing and then do that..
If grouping is encouraged from the first levels, those kind of jerks will be kicked out of groups sooner or later and can't progress further. Still, some idiots will get through the sieve, but there will be much less of those players around than usually.
even jerks pay the sub and have a right to play, thus making yet more solo players. those who are jerks and no one groups with, and those who dislike groups because of all the jerks and prefer to do it their selves, and also me who likes the challenge of soloing. Forced grouping is pointless, balanced play is better. I am not saying that all gear/loot should be accesible to both styles - but if I can solo it(due to my skill at playing and my knowledge of my character's strengths and weaknesses) I should be able to. Note: I need a new keyboard, keys are sticking - please excuse my typos - the q key seems to show up when ever it pleases.
But that's not balance, you're just asking for a solo game.
You have a skewed idea of the definition of balance. Grouping and group based games are not about balance nor do they define it. Every MMO gives groupers the better deal, bar none. So screw you if we think we deserve to have at least one MMO that caters to us without making us second class gamers.
There is no point in arguing. Groupers have an agenda and soloers have an agenda. Groupers have always had the upper hand when it comes to a game's reward system and they can't stand the thought of sharing. The very definition of greed and entitlement. I can hear the school yard bully from my past......my play style is better than yours noob.........
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I dont think anyones disagreeing with the fact that times have changed and game devs need to develop methods and means for casual players. I think what people are saying is that it isnt feasible or wise to enable soloers/casuals to obtain the SAME gear as those that devote more time and effort in groups/raids. If everyone can get the top gear via soloing, EVERYONE would do it. The game would then lose the portion of players that prefer grouping/raiding.
Who gives a crap about them, they are the minoirty that have dominated the market for far too long. You are outnumbered and who exactly do you think companies should be trying to keep?
Effort invested into a game is relative to the player, Your arbitrary standard is the exact reason why mainstream looks down on this industry as a bunch of freakish nerds with no life.
It's time to move away from the hardcore, second job style MMOs and venture into main stream entertainment. You may not like it, but there are a LOT more people who would.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Oh yes they are. Gouping by its very nature is a challenge all on its own. Putting up with jerks, bad players (usually the consistent soloers) , know-it-alls and pervs, etc etc. is a game all by its self. And this has been beaten to death but I'll repeat, if the SAME gear is attainable via soloing, no one would group. Tabula Rasa was like that. It's now defunct.
Show me proof that soloing was even in the top 10 reasons why Tabula Rasa failed. You people are grasping at straws with these unsubstantiated claims.
What we do know is that the genre has expanded exponentially since it became more casual and solo friendly. You do the frakking math.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I dont think anyones disagreeing with the fact that times have changed and game devs need to develop methods and means for casual players. I think what people are saying is that it isnt feasible or wise to enable soloers/casuals to obtain the SAME gear as those that devote more time and effort in groups/raids. If everyone can get the top gear via soloing, EVERYONE would do it. The game would then lose the portion of players that prefer grouping/raiding.
You just contradicted yourself. You just said everyone would solo the content if they could. Why would they leave? I you gave them the option of soloing it, or grouping it, and they would rather solo it, why should they leave? They're doing what they would prefer doing to get the same content.
All you, and those like you, are doing is trying to justify the fact that you want people to be forced to group if they want to achieve exclusively superior rewards. It doesn't matter if it takes the soloer a longer time than the accumlated hours of everyone involved in a raid, or if their solo-tuned content is actually harder, or if it would take the casual player 2 years of real time to get an equal reward that you got in 2 months, you don't want them to **ever** get it. It's not about how easy or hard it is, nor is it about how much time it takes; it's actually about getting the EXCLUSIVITY of the superior reward. If you can't have something that **most** other players don't have and cannot get, you don't enjoy the game.
The sad, hypocritical part of this is that without that ocean of soloers and casual groupers and occasional groupers and non-raiders and non-powergamers, you don't have anyone to feel superior to, which is why you argue and rant against developers even MAKING a game that caters to casuals and solers - that ocean of players would abandon your self-serving caste-system MMOGs in droves and head over to where they aren't coded in as the scrubs and red-headed stepchildren.
You EXPECT them to play and play in huge numbers in your game, financing your self-serving expansions and "end-game" content, where if you had to switch positions with them and settle for 3rd rate common rewards you wouldn't even play, and you have the nerve to tell them that THEY are greedy loot-whores because they aren't satisfied being your peasants and commoners.
Exactly.
The very same reason why PvP oriented games don't want casuals to be able to compete. You gotta have that fodder running around so you can vent your nerd rage.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Oh yes they are. Gouping by its very nature is a challenge all on its own. Putting up with jerks, bad players (usually the consistent soloers) , know-it-alls and pervs, etc etc. is a game all by its self. And this has been beaten to death but I'll repeat, if the SAME gear is attainable via soloing, no one would group. Tabula Rasa was like that. It's now defunct.
False as proven by CoH/CoV. A game that is solo-able, didn't even have gear, and yet most people grouped.
Which is why I play CoH/CoV for 5 years and I didn't play WoW.
They get to endgame by soloing and then do that..
If grouping is encouraged from the first levels, those kind of jerks will be kicked out of groups sooner or later and can't progress further. Still, some idiots will get through the sieve, but there will be much less of those players around than usually.
even jerks pay the sub and have a right to play, thus making yet more solo players. those who are jerks and no one groups with, and those who dislike groups because of all the jerks and prefer to do it their selves, and also me who likes the challenge of soloing. Forced grouping is pointless, balanced play is better. I am not saying that all gear/loot should be accesible to both styles - but if I can solo it(due to my skill at playing and my knowledge of my character's strengths and weaknesses) I should be able to. Note: I need a new keyboard, keys are sticking - please excuse my typos - the q key seems to show up when ever it pleases.
But that's not balance, you're just asking for a solo game.
You read but do not comprehend, you wish some one to blame for you're not being able to find a group so those who solo come to hand. We are not the problem, nor is balanced game play.
the problem, I fear is that you will never be satisfied unless the game is exactly as You want it, and it will probably never be even if there is nothing that can be done by solo play.
Oh yes they are. Gouping by its very nature is a challenge all on its own. Putting up with jerks, bad players (usually the consistent soloers) , know-it-alls and pervs, etc etc. is a game all by its self. And this has been beaten to death but I'll repeat, if the SAME gear is attainable via soloing, no one would group. Tabula Rasa was like that. It's now defunct.
False as proven by CoH/CoV. A game that is solo-able, didn't even have gear, and yet most people grouped.
Which is why I play CoH/CoV for 5 years and I didn't play WoW.
I agree - in CoV I just solo'd a character to lvl 10. From my experience, though, it gets harder at this point to solo. One can, but to do so means doing quests at a low reputation and takes far longer. If you group you can set the rep high - more mobs, more xp and quicker leveling results.
I dont think anyones disagreeing with the fact that times have changed and game devs need to develop methods and means for casual players. I think what people are saying is that it isnt feasible or wise to enable soloers/casuals to obtain the SAME gear as those that devote more time and effort in groups/raids. If everyone can get the top gear via soloing, EVERYONE would do it. The game would then lose the portion of players that prefer grouping/raiding.
You just contradicted yourself. You just said everyone would solo the content if they could. Why would they leave? I you gave them the option of soloing it, or grouping it, and they would rather solo it, why should they leave? They're doing what they would prefer doing to get the same content.
All you, and those like you, are doing is trying to justify the fact that you want people to be forced to group if they want to achieve exclusively superior rewards. It doesn't matter if it takes the soloer a longer time than the accumlated hours of everyone involved in a raid, or if their solo-tuned content is actually harder, or if it would take the casual player 2 years of real time to get an equal reward that you got in 2 months, you don't want them to **ever** get it. It's not about how easy or hard it is, nor is it about how much time it takes; it's actually about getting the EXCLUSIVITY of the superior reward. If you can't have something that **most** other players don't have and cannot get, you don't enjoy the game.
The sad, hypocritical part of this is that without that ocean of soloers and casual groupers and occasional groupers and non-raiders and non-powergamers, you don't have anyone to feel superior to, which is why you argue and rant against developers even MAKING a game that caters to casuals and solers - that ocean of players would abandon your self-serving caste-system MMOGs in droves and head over to where they aren't coded in as the scrubs and red-headed stepchildren.
You EXPECT them to play and play in huge numbers in your game, financing your self-serving expansions and "end-game" content, where if you had to switch positions with them and settle for 3rd rate common rewards you wouldn't even play, and you have the nerve to tell them that THEY are greedy loot-whores because they aren't satisfied being your peasants and commoners.
Exactly.
The very same reason why PvP oriented games don't want casuals to be able to compete. You gotta have that fodder running around so you can vent your nerd rage.
once again the linkage between casuals and solo. Many of us who solo play put in as many if not more hours on the game as groupers. Since things are easier to do in a group I think it is you groupers who are the "Casual" players.
I dont think anyones disagreeing with the fact that times have changed and game devs need to develop methods and means for casual players. I think what people are saying is that it isnt feasible or wise to enable soloers/casuals to obtain the SAME gear as those that devote more time and effort in groups/raids. If everyone can get the top gear via soloing, EVERYONE would do it. The game would then lose the portion of players that prefer grouping/raiding.
You just contradicted yourself. You just said everyone would solo the content if they could. Why would they leave? I you gave them the option of soloing it, or grouping it, and they would rather solo it, why should they leave? They're doing what they would prefer doing to get the same content.
All you, and those like you, are doing is trying to justify the fact that you want people to be forced to group if they want to achieve exclusively superior rewards. It doesn't matter if it takes the soloer a longer time than the accumlated hours of everyone involved in a raid, or if their solo-tuned content is actually harder, or if it would take the casual player 2 years of real time to get an equal reward that you got in 2 months, you don't want them to **ever** get it. It's not about how easy or hard it is, nor is it about how much time it takes; it's actually about getting the EXCLUSIVITY of the superior reward. If you can't have something that **most** other players don't have and cannot get, you don't enjoy the game.
The sad, hypocritical part of this is that without that ocean of soloers and casual groupers and occasional groupers and non-raiders and non-powergamers, you don't have anyone to feel superior to, which is why you argue and rant against developers even MAKING a game that caters to casuals and solers - that ocean of players would abandon your self-serving caste-system MMOGs in droves and head over to where they aren't coded in as the scrubs and red-headed stepchildren.
You EXPECT them to play and play in huge numbers in your game, financing your self-serving expansions and "end-game" content, where if you had to switch positions with them and settle for 3rd rate common rewards you wouldn't even play, and you have the nerve to tell them that THEY are greedy loot-whores because they aren't satisfied being your peasants and commoners.
Wrong, I am not contradicting myself. If you preferrred grouping, and players in the game knew they could get something via soloing, who would you have to group with? Getting groups would be impossible. I played TR and saw EXACTLY that happen. After a while many people just gave up trying to get groups and left. The game was left with a bunch of soloers and the game FAILED. I dont give a frakk what anyone else has to say, that was one of the MAIN reasons TR failed. No need for groups or raids. Go read their forums, its all there. I played in beta through luanch and several months after.
On your second point your getting real personal. you dont know me from adam or what I want from a game. I acutally solo alot, and I COULD CARE LESS what uber raider has to where compared to me. And there is your obvious failure: LOOT ENVY. The fact is the ONLY HYPOCRITE here is you. You resent people that want superior gear and make fun of those that prefer it. AND at the SAME TIME YOU DEMAND THAT People like you, SOLOERS, have access to it. Pathetic. Make up your mind...you want superior gear dont you? I bet you do. And like most carebears you want it for free with no work and no effort. SOMETHING FOR NOTHING. How typical.
I wish developers woould make a game for people like you, and get them out of ours. You could just log in, hit the "I WIN" button and get your purple lootz! But Im sure you would find something else to cry about.
Current Games: WOW, EVE Online
I dont think anyones disagreeing with the fact that times have changed and game devs need to develop methods and means for casual players. I think what people are saying is that it isnt feasible or wise to enable soloers/casuals to obtain the SAME gear as those that devote more time and effort in groups/raids. If everyone can get the top gear via soloing, EVERYONE would do it. The game would then lose the portion of players that prefer grouping/raiding.
Who gives a crap about them, they are the minoirty that have dominated the market for far too long. You are outnumbered and who exactly do you think companies should be trying to keep?
Effort invested into a game is relative to the player, Your arbitrary standard is the exact reason why mainstream looks down on this industry as a bunch of freakish nerds with no life.
It's time to move away from the hardcore, second job style MMOs and venture into main stream entertainment. You may not like it, but there are a LOT more people who would.
Go play your fail game man, who cares? There are plenty of solo friendly games out there, go knock yourself out. And I am sure they will be developing games for people like you, still butthurt from the high school play yard. In fact I heartily endorse them making a solo friendly carebear fail game so that you people can find somewhere to hang your hats and hopefully stop your crying
Mainstream of entertainment? I thought that was done with WOW? you want it to be easier than that? lmao~!
Current Games: WOW, EVE Online
I dont think anyones disagreeing with the fact that times have changed and game devs need to develop methods and means for casual players. I think what people are saying is that it isnt feasible or wise to enable soloers/casuals to obtain the SAME gear as those that devote more time and effort in groups/raids. If everyone can get the top gear via soloing, EVERYONE would do it. The game would then lose the portion of players that prefer grouping/raiding.
Who gives a crap about them, they are the minoirty that have dominated the market for far too long. You are outnumbered and who exactly do you think companies should be trying to keep?
Effort invested into a game is relative to the player, Your arbitrary standard is the exact reason why mainstream looks down on this industry as a bunch of freakish nerds with no life.
It's time to move away from the hardcore, second job style MMOs and venture into main stream entertainment. You may not like it, but there are a LOT more people who would.
Go play your fail game man, who cares? There are plenty of solo friendly games out there, go knock yourself out. And I am sure they will be developing games for people like you, still butthurt from the high school play yard. In fact I heartily endorse them making a solo friendly carebear fail game so that you people can find somewhere to hang your hats and hopefully stop your crying
Mainstream of entertainment? I thought that was done with WOW? you want it to be easier than that? lmao~!
another person with the"grouper" blinders on. Who said solo'rs want easy content. I for one enjoy the challenge of doing the quests solo, keep them hard to solo - I love it. Grouping is for those who CAN'T solo, they want an easy way to do the game. Solo'rs, or those I know anyways, prefer the harder path.
Oh yes they are. Gouping by its very nature is a challenge all on its own. Putting up with jerks, bad players (usually the consistent soloers) , know-it-alls and pervs, etc etc. is a game all by its self. And this has been beaten to death but I'll repeat, if the SAME gear is attainable via soloing, no one would group. Tabula Rasa was like that. It's now defunct.
False as proven by CoH/CoV. A game that is solo-able, didn't even have gear, and yet most people grouped.
Which is why I play CoH/CoV for 5 years and I didn't play WoW.
Good for you.
I know several people that played COX, they said its fun for a bit then they left. Maybe thats the answer, make a bunch of solable COX like games for soloers where you can log in, solo a bit and get the best gear and be happy.
Current Games: WOW, EVE Online
Not at all, I solo alot and love accomplishing stuff on my own . I just dont need to have the best gear as a raider because I could give a frakk if they are leetist or act "superior" and obviously you people DO! LOOT ENVY, in a nutshell.
BTW the hands down worst players to ever invite into a group effort are the soloists. They have zero comprehension of group dynamics and only look after themselves. Lets hope they make a space where you can all convene and stop ruining gameplay for others:)
Current Games: WOW, EVE Online
Good for you.
I know several people that played COX, they said its fun for a bit then they left. Maybe thats the answer, make a bunch of solable COX like games for soloers where you can log in, solo a bit and get the best gear and be happy.
You missed the point. COX managed to be fun for soloers and fun for groupers. You don't have to group, nor do you have to solo. You group if you want to, because you find it fun, not because you must. It doesn't have to be solo game or group game, its not either or.
People don't need fancy items to group, they just need it to be fun.
Oh yes they are. Gouping by its very nature is a challenge all on its own. Putting up with jerks, bad players (usually the consistent soloers) , know-it-alls and pervs, etc etc. is a game all by its self. And this has been beaten to death but I'll repeat, if the SAME gear is attainable via soloing, no one would group. Tabula Rasa was like that. It's now defunct.
False as proven by CoH/CoV. A game that is solo-able, didn't even have gear, and yet most people grouped.
Which is why I play CoH/CoV for 5 years and I didn't play WoW.
Good for you.
I know several people that played COX, they said its fun for a bit then they left. Maybe thats the answer, make a bunch of solable COX like games for soloers where you can log in, solo a bit and get the best gear and be happy.
the true answer is for you group only people to get over yourselves.