One of the attractive aspects of mmos (for me) is the server-moderated gameplay. I prefer single player games but I don't like the ability to hit the SAVE button (or AUTOSAVE progress). I prefer having the server record my progress, for some reason it feels more immersive, particularly as NPCs seem to spawn and behave a bit more randomly than games that live only on your harddrive. So, I would be interested in a single-player adventure game of this type. What would you call it? A massive SORPG? LOL.
But, going to the topic at hand. I play mmos as a single player 99% of the time. After I have solo'd to maximum template, I will often go into dungeons and solo what I can. I will group when I must to do a group instance as long as it has a needed quest reward. If it requires raiding with a dice roll to get boss loot, then I will not do the dungeon unless it is to help out a friend. Of course, this means I will miss a significant amount of content and it usually means, as in WoW, that I will miss out on the best armor and fighting gear. Sometimes, I extended the life of my solo character by dual-boxing.
Obviously, given my playstyle, I do not like doing repetitive dungeon runs. It was fun doing a dungeon instance once, but not over and over with the slim hope of winning a dice roll for boss loot (if it happened to drop your needed class item). I agree with previous posters who said that RAID PvE content was just a way for a game company to force you to extend your sub!
Personally, I most enjoyed instance grouping way back in the SWG preCU days when the main reward was an experience badge. Ha, ha, particularly with a group of jedi as everyone was a healer/tank/nuker all rolled into one!
Depends on the game i would think. How does a soloer affect a grouper any different than someone who doesn't even play mmorpgs would affect a grouper?
Community suffers & they're not as experienced in a group, so when the time comes when they have to/want to group they're messing things up because they haven't been taught the mechanics from the start. If they start learning them at the level cap, it's even worse.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
The reason they can't "balance" solo and group play is because players and developers are under the mistaken impression that they apply to the same thing and function in the same way.
Why can't they balance apples and oranges? Because they are different colors obviously ...
The reason they can't "balance" solo and group play is because players and developers are under the mistaken impression that they apply to the same thing and function in the same way.
Why can't they balance apples and oranges? Because they are different colors obviously ...
Once again, group and solo play can of course be balanced, as can casual and hardcore play. Giving one group exclusive rewards is, by definition, not balanced. What such a game cannot achieve is giving any specific playstyle group access to exclusively superior rewards, which is what the hardcore and groupers who argue against such a game actually want, even though they keep trying to dress it up as something else.
"The pro-groupers, however, are arguing that the ability of someone to do solo quests *AT ALL* harms their fun. That's what everyone is disagreeing with." If you exclude all the people on both sides having their obsessive endgame gear feuds there are some pro-groupers saying that due to (imo) not fully understanding the problem e.g EQ1 had lots of people grouping and lots of people soloing so it's perfectly possible to have both (except at endgame). However what i am saying is that it is self-evidently true that if a game has almost no people grouping (except max level raiding) then it means the game is easy because if a game is designed to be hard then lots of people will automatically start to group for safety in numbers because that is how people behave - they form groups when they feel threatened. They do it n real-life and they do it in games. In a well-populated RvR game people automatically group up because the threat level is high. In a combat orientated MMORPG if there are no groups it means the level of threat is too low to make people want to be in a group. It's self-evident and obviously true.
It's only self-evident if you define "hard" as "can only be accomplished as a group"; that is only a self-serving definition. There are other ways to make advancing aspects of the game "hard" without resorting to "larger and larger groups". Sequences of finely tuned solo-instances or lock-out common area fights can be made to be very difficult.
The only reason to equate "groups" with "difficulty" is to rationalize the desire for grouping to deliver exclusively superior rewards. In any event, there is no law that says that just because you did something "harder" than the next guy, you should be able to get the reward and he shouldn't; it could equally mean that you just get the reward a lot faster than he does.
Depends on the game i would think. How does a soloer affect a grouper any different than someone who doesn't even play mmorpgs would affect a grouper?
Community suffers & they're not as experienced in a group, so when the time comes when they have to/want to group they're messing things up because they haven't been taught the mechanics from the start. If they start learning them at the level cap, it's even worse.
I said different than when someone doesn't play at all. If community suffers (which i am not convinced of), it would suffer even more with someone who never played. A soloer can and probably would take part of the community, but not grouping. The demands are different.
Don't blame us or a game for your character faults.
Miss the point-day today it seems.
People would embrace it if they could. The thing is, it's up to the devs to make it more like RL is, and not some half-assed copy that's only a half of what it is.
Here's a point that I think you keep missing: a lot of soloers and casual don't group because it's a forced dynamic. There is a lot of pressure on being able to fulfill your "role" in a group, and to pay very close attention to what is going on. In most groups I've ever been in, there is virtually no "socializing" going on because the players are intent on maximizing their efficiency because you never know when someone is going to bail, or go afk for a stretch. Also, you may not really know anyone else, so you largely just want to shut up and focus on performing your task so you don't screw up whatever you're trying to accomplish.
If you're a casual player, you don't really like to inflict your casualness on groups because often you have to go afk or you don't really know exactly what to do in every situation. I remember getting into groups where everyone was supposed to "know" about how certain things were supposed to be done; I didn't have a clue wtf was going on, and asking would generally just get me dissed one way or another. To understand how to play your role in a group, you basically have to group a lot for a large portion of your career, to learn how the other classes play their roles and how your role changes with the situation.
My point is this: IF the importance of grouping as a means of obtaining exclusively superior content was removed, there's a lot of us who would group more because it isn't a pressurized, responsibility-laden situation for our characters. Grouping would be more like after-hours socializing, not the kind of forced socializing one must do because they're on a job.
The ironic thing is that is what many people here keep referring to when they try to justify forced grouping: a job. Well, most of us have jobs, where we are forced to group for our rewards. When we get off work and fire up a game, we'd still like to socialize, but for enjoyment and entertainment with people we like, not because we want a situation that is like a 2nd job, and especially not a 2nd job where some 15yr old is screaming at us because we went AFK to fix little Johnny's boo boo and the team broke up and they didn't get to get their exclusive Axe of Zits that time.
If I go bowling, I pay my money and I can still bowl a perfect game, whether or not I'm in a group. What's the point of grouping if you're going to bowl? Answer: it's fun.
Don't blame us or a game for your character faults.
Miss the point-day today it seems.
People would embrace it if they could. The thing is, it's up to the devs to make it more like RL is, and not some half-assed copy that's only a half of what it is.
Here's a point that I think you keep missing: a lot of soloers and casual don't group because it's a forced dynamic. There is a lot of pressure on being able to fulfill your "role" in a group, and to pay very close attention to what is going on.
The ironic thing is that is what many people here keep referring to when they try to justify forced grouping: a job. Well, most of us have jobs, where we are forced to group for our rewards. When we get off work and fire up a game, we'd still like to socialize, but for enjoyment and entertainment with people we like, not because we want a situation that is like a 2nd job, and especially not a 2nd job where some 15yr old is screaming at us because we went AFK to fix little Johnny's boo boo and the team broke up and they didn't get to get their exclusive Axe of Zits that time.
If I go bowling, I pay my money and I can still bowl a perfect game, whether or not I'm in a group. What's the point of grouping if you're going to bowl? Answer: it's fun.
Answer: it's for YOU because you like to solo. It's not fun for me if you are bowling on my alley where there are teams competing for a trophy, and you get to compete for the trophy solo. You just screwed up the entire game.
Here's the point you don't get. The part groupers like, is the part you don't like. When we change the game for you, it ruins it for us.
That part about having to play very close attention to what is going on and play your role? THAT'S THE ONLY PART OF THE GAME I LIKE!
If you take taht part out, and you do if I, me, myself, not you, can solo the game, then the game is ruined for me.
If you bowl and you don't compete for the same trophy, then you're right it would not affect me, and I would not care.
That would mean I'm playinjg DAoC, and you are playing WoW.
If I"m playing the same game as you, anbd you can solo, then so can I, and the group game is worthless. Don't act like your solo rules don't affect me, because they do.
Don't blame us or a game for your character faults.
Miss the point-day today it seems.
People would embrace it if they could. The thing is, it's up to the devs to make it more like RL is, and not some half-assed copy that's only a half of what it is.
Here's a point that I think you keep missing: a lot of soloers and casual don't group because it's a forced dynamic. There is a lot of pressure on being able to fulfill your "role" in a group, and to pay very close attention to what is going on.
The ironic thing is that is what many people here keep referring to when they try to justify forced grouping: a job. Well, most of us have jobs, where we are forced to group for our rewards. When we get off work and fire up a game, we'd still like to socialize, but for enjoyment and entertainment with people we like, not because we want a situation that is like a 2nd job, and especially not a 2nd job where some 15yr old is screaming at us because we went AFK to fix little Johnny's boo boo and the team broke up and they didn't get to get their exclusive Axe of Zits that time.
If I go bowling, I pay my money and I can still bowl a perfect game, whether or not I'm in a group. What's the point of grouping if you're going to bowl? Answer: it's fun.
Answer: it's for YOU because you like to solo. It's not fun for me if you are bowling on my alley where there are teams competing for a trophy, and you get to compete for the trophy solo. You just screwed up the entire game.
Here's the point you don't get. The part groupers like, is the part you don't like. When we change the game for you, it ruins it for us.
That part about having to play very close attention to what is going on and play your role? THAT'S THE ONLY PART OF THE GAME I LIKE!
If you take taht part out, and you do if I, me, myself, not you, can solo the game, then the game is ruined for me.
If you bowl and you don't compete for the same trophy, then you're right it would not affect me, and I would not care.
That would mean I'm playinjg DAoC, and you are playing WoW.
If I"m playing the same game as you, anbd you can solo, then so can I, and the group game is worthless. Don't act like your solo rules don't affect me, because they do.
I don't want to bowl in "your" alley. I don't want you playing the same game I'm playing. There is more than one MMOG in the world. You can have your game. Nobody is saying otherwise. I'm not going to come "crash" your group-style game. Do you really think we're going to convince all game developers to abandon the group-exclusivity model? Of course not. We're just trying to get a game or two created tha actually ***allow** casuals and soloers to **eventually** reach top content and gain top rewards.
As I said before, I promise not to take my character from that game and insert it into yours to spoil your fun.
What you don't get is that up until now soloers and casuals that want to be in MMOGs don't have a game to play that allows them to experience top content and rewards eventually, so **we** are the ones that **have to** come to your bowling alley if we want to play at all. You bowling alley tries to half-a$$ accomodate us by setting us up some lanes in the back and offering 1/10th the cash reward for our top games as you get. Who is this supposed to make happy?
Here's a clue: advocate WITH US for our own solo and casual-friendly bowling alley, and you won't have to put up with us in **YOUR** alley, complaining because all the top cash rewards only go to groups. We're not going away, we're just going to hang out in your alley bit**ing about it until someone builds our alley.
"The pro-groupers, however, are arguing that the ability of someone to do solo quests *AT ALL* harms their fun. That's what everyone is disagreeing with." If you exclude all the people on both sides having their obsessive endgame gear feuds there are some pro-groupers saying that due to (imo) not fully understanding the problem e.g EQ1 had lots of people grouping and lots of people soloing so it's perfectly possible to have both (except at endgame). However what i am saying is that it is self-evidently true that if a game has almost no people grouping (except max level raiding) then it means the game is easy because if a game is designed to be hard then lots of people will automatically start to group for safety in numbers because that is how people behave - they form groups when they feel threatened. They do it n real-life and they do it in games. In a well-populated RvR game people automatically group up because the threat level is high. In a combat orientated MMORPG if there are no groups it means the level of threat is too low to make people want to be in a group. It's self-evident and obviously true.
It's only self-evident if you define "hard" as "can only be accomplished as a group"; that is only a self-serving definition. There are other ways to make advancing aspects of the game "hard" without resorting to "larger and larger groups". Sequences of finely tuned solo-instances or lock-out common area fights can be made to be very difficult.
The only reason to equate "groups" with "difficulty" is to rationalize the desire for grouping to deliver exclusively superior rewards. In any event, there is no law that says that just because you did something "harder" than the next guy, you should be able to get the reward and he shouldn't; it could equally mean that you just get the reward a lot faster than he does.
"There are other ways to make advancing aspects of the game "hard" without resorting to "larger and larger groups". Sequences of finely tuned solo-instances or lock-out common area fights can be made to be very difficult."
Yes it's possible to have hard solo content and if the games had hard solo content then you'd see a bigger percentage of people grouping. There's maybe 10% of people who particularly like grouping and would prefer to group, 10% who would always want to solo no matter what and 80% who decide based on cost-benefit. It's self-evidently true that if those 80% are almost all soloing then it must be the easiest path. If soloing was harder then some of that 80% would be grouping.
WAR: 90% people soloing the PvE, then 2 minutes later when they enter an RvR battleground the same people immediately group up. It's human nature.
"The only reason to equate "groups" with "difficulty" is to rationalize the desire for grouping to deliver exclusively superior rewards."
Not the only reason. In all the games I've tried I've never been max level when it was max level, never raided, never will raid and never will get interested in a gear grinding game.
My reason is: EQ1 was a bit too much mob-grinding and games like WoW reacted in the opposite direction and made it too much solo quest grinding instead. I think a blend of the two would be better, something like 1/3 solo quest grinding and 2/3 mob grinding where the cost/benefit pushed players towards dangerous chaotic dungeons where it made sense to group but you could solo if you liked a challenge.
To make Group and Solo more balanced, the Solo player may be required to complete 10 missions to obtain the same reward the Group does once. This is random and it may even need to be 50 or somewhere in between. It would not be fair to allow a Solo player to do ONE mission and get the same reward for a group to do. The key is to allow the Solo player to have the option to get the same rewards as a group but with extended effort.
Well said.
I can either solo or group in a game; I honestly do not care which (unless I'm in a horrible mood and just want to engage in some pixellated slaughter for a little while as a stress reliever ;P ).
I also honestly could care less that there are those out there who would rather play in groups all the time, even to go fishing. If that is what a player enjoys, I say more power to them. We all pay the same $15 a month, so we should all be able to play the game in the manner we prefer (so long as it doesn't violate the TOS, the EULA and good taste).
By the same token, since all players do pay the same $15 a month, it is my opinion that all players should be eligible for the same rewards, no matter what their preferred playstyle. While it would certainly be crazy for soloers to expect to get that Sword of Fiery Deathstrikes in a single solo run through the Cavern of Unending Doom (the idea of a random number of runs somewhere between 10 and 50 does sound like a good idea to me personally, but then, I enjoy attempting to solo "group" instances just to see how far I will get), it should, in my opinion, still be possible for a solo player to eventually have a chance to obtain the Sword of Fiery Deathstrikes if the solo player is willing to put enough effort into the game to run the Cavern of Unending Doom ad nauseum until it drops. Currently, in many games, it is not possible and that is, I believe, a huge part of the problem: developers are, whether deliberately or not, creating a system of inherent inequality wherein only one choice of playstyle is considered acceptable even though all choices of playstyle are made available.
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
I still do not understand why groupers feel that their game is ruined if someone can get the same item soloing that they can get grouping.
If you want to group, because you ENJOY to group, then no one is stopping you. But the problem is that the so called Pro-groupers are not whining on this forum because their group content is being attacked. They are whining because they feel threatened that they wont be able to show off how "uber" they are in game and then they wont be able to degrade everyone else who doesnt get to do the group content and didnt receive the same rewards.
Thats all it comes down to, plain and simple, if those pro groupers would sit back and realize its just a game, and the real world does not care what weapon you are wielding then this post would have ended a long time ago.
So if you like to group to be with people in a more social gaming aspect, then I have no objections to you. They should definitely continue to give content designated as group content, and perhaps speed up the rewards process and xp/gold rewards. But by no means should they automatically cut non-groupers off from any possible chance of the end game rewards.
Thats why I personally always preferred games that rewards icons/points that you accumlated via various means in varying amounts depending on content completed, and could purchase your rewards that way. But also, I prefer that crafted items be just as powerful as dropped items but thats a different discussion.
I wonder what % of WoW players are "true" solo players as in they never group or do so rarely it doesn't even matter.
What would they really do?
Daily quests, finish all the non-elite/solo quest chains in every zone.
Seasonal event stuff.
Crafting (limited by raid drops or badges required for high level crafting)
It has to be less then 5%.
Maybe even less then 1%.
I'd say the "average" solo player does their dailies solo and does Battlegrounds, which are forced grouping. They may occassional get into a PUG for the daily instance or daily heroic. They may even join a PUG raid for content a few patches old like a 10 Naxx or something
Those players? Maybe 20-30% depending on the server. Maybe we'll call them "solo players who group."
Everyone else, anyone in any guild is not really a solo player. You can do some game stuff solo but as long as you are in a guild and do the occasional forced grouping activity like dungeons/BGs you are not a "true" solo player.
Those are probably a good 60-70% depending on server, with the final 10%-20% or so as more "hardcore" players that usually play every day and always do group activities like Arena, Battlegrounds, Dungeons, and raiding.
So...
Is World of Warcraft a solo game? Anything but.
The best part? Those 10-20% who play everyday and are always involved in group activities get the best gear and they get it the fastest.
Kind of.. makes... sense doesn't it?
The solo players who group and true solo players can still gear up through crafting and buying BoE epics of the AH, or with their occassional PUG or BG they can eventually purchase gear rewards.
I still do not understand why groupers feel that their game is ruined if someone can get the same item soloing that they can get grouping. If you want to group, because you ENJOY to group, then no one is stopping you.
Let's say there's a race. And the winner gets a trophy. And you really enjoy racing, maybe it's a bicycle race like Lance Armstrong. And the trophy would be things like xp, levels, and loot.
So there's a new race about to start. And Lance Armstrong is looking forward to a new challenge, and maybe he can win the trophy again! This is going to be really fun, and challenging!
And then you step in and change the rules. You say, you know, not everyone can bicycle as far as Lance Armstrong (has time to play in a group). So, I"m going to say the new rule is you can get the trophy, if you can bicyle around the block, and you can take as much time as you like.
BUT , if Lance Armstrong wants to bike 2,225 miles for the exact same Trophy, well guess what! he Should be really happy, because we're still going to LET him to that. Because it's fun!
YOu don't see how this changes the race, or changes the game at all? It still seems exactly the same to you?
No grouper is looking for a game that doesn't stop them from grouping dum dum. That's a solo game, Duh. Just like Lance Armstrong isn't looking to enter a race that will LET him bike 2,000 miles OR 1 mile for the same trophy.
Don't ya think that would be retarded?
I don't need to group to socialize. I can socialize without grouping. I want to group because I like challenging team based games, and if you change the rules, you take away the challenge, and the fun.
I still do not understand why groupers feel that their game is ruined if someone can get the same item soloing that they can get grouping. If you want to group, because you ENJOY to group, then no one is stopping you.
Let's say there's a race. And the winner gets a trophy. And you really enjoy racing, maybe it's a bicycle race like Lance Armstrong. And the trophy would be things like xp, levels, and loot.
So there's a new race about to start. And Lance Armstrong is looking forward to a new challenge, and maybe he can win the trophy again! This is going to be really fun, and challenging!
And then you step in and change the rules. You say, you know, not everyone can bicycle as far as Lance Armstrong (has time to play in a group). So, I"m going to say the new rule is you can get the trophy, if you can bicyle around the block, and you can take as much time as you like.
BUT , if Lance Armstrong wants to bike 2,225 miles for the exact same Trophy, well guess what! he Should be really happy, because we're still going to LET him to that. Because it's fun!
YOu don't see how this changes the race, or changes the game at all? It still seems exactly the same to you?
No grouper is looking for a game that doesn't stop them from grouping dum dum. That's a solo game, Duh. Just like Lance Armstrong isn't looking to enter a race that will LET him bike 2,000 miles OR 1 mile for the same trophy.
Don't ya think that would be retarded?
I don't need to group to socialize. I can socialize without grouping. I want to group because I like challenging team based games, and if you change the rules, you take away the challenge, and the fun.
You just ruined your own argument.
It's because you think of it as a race that solo and group play can never be balanced.
I still do not understand why groupers feel that their game is ruined if someone can get the same item soloing that they can get grouping. If you want to group, because you ENJOY to group, then no one is stopping you.
Let's say there's a race. And the winner gets a trophy. And you really enjoy racing, maybe it's a bicycle race like Lance Armstrong. And the trophy would be things like xp, levels, and loot.
So there's a new race about to start. And Lance Armstrong is looking forward to a new challenge, and maybe he can win the trophy again! This is going to be really fun, and challenging!
And then you step in and change the rules. You say, you know, not everyone can bicycle as far as Lance Armstrong (has time to play in a group). So, I"m going to say the new rule is you can get the trophy, if you can bicyle around the block, and you can take as much time as you like.
BUT , if Lance Armstrong wants to bike 2,225 miles for the exact same Trophy, well guess what! he Should be really happy, because we're still going to LET him to that. Because it's fun!
YOu don't see how this changes the race, or changes the game at all? It still seems exactly the same to you?
No grouper is looking for a game that doesn't stop them from grouping dum dum. That's a solo game, Duh. Just like Lance Armstrong isn't looking to enter a race that will LET him bike 2,000 miles OR 1 mile for the same trophy.
Don't ya think that would be retarded?
I don't need to group to socialize. I can socialize without grouping. I want to group because I like challenging team based games, and if you change the rules, you take away the challenge, and the fun.
You just ruined your own argument.
It's because you think of it as a race that solo and group play can never be balanced.
Use any analogy you like, in a game there is a reward.
Name a game where there is no reward, and you would have a point.
IN a game wiht no xp, and no loot, no levels, no increase in skillz, I would agree wiht you 100%.
However, your argument is defeated, because an MMORPG is a game with rewards. They are called Xp, loot, levels, and skillz.
Use any analogy you like, in a game there is a reward. Name a game where there is no reward, and you would have a point.
For some the reward is collecting things. For some the reward is a social environment. For some the reward is building their character. For some the reward is building or participating in a community. From what you have posted so far, for you the reward is getting xp and getting to the cap, but you still haven't explained how another person's path to that reward in any way affects your path to it.
Are you enjoying your path? If so, then what difference does it make if another person's path is shorter or longer?
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I still do not understand why groupers feel that their game is ruined if someone can get the same item soloing that they can get grouping. If you want to group, because you ENJOY to group, then no one is stopping you.
Let's say there's a race. And the winner gets a trophy. And you really enjoy racing, maybe it's a bicycle race like Lance Armstrong. And the trophy would be things like xp, levels, and loot.
So there's a new race about to start. And Lance Armstrong is looking forward to a new challenge, and maybe he can win the trophy again! This is going to be really fun, and challenging!
And then you step in and change the rules. You say, you know, not everyone can bicycle as far as Lance Armstrong (has time to play in a group). So, I"m going to say the new rule is you can get the trophy, if you can bicyle around the block, and you can take as much time as you like.
BUT , if Lance Armstrong wants to bike 2,225 miles for the exact same Trophy, well guess what! he Should be really happy, because we're still going to LET him to that. Because it's fun!
YOu don't see how this changes the race, or changes the game at all? It still seems exactly the same to you?
No grouper is looking for a game that doesn't stop them from grouping dum dum. That's a solo game, Duh. Just like Lance Armstrong isn't looking to enter a race that will LET him bike 2,000 miles OR 1 mile for the same trophy.
Don't ya think that would be retarded?
I don't need to group to socialize. I can socialize without grouping. I want to group because I like challenging team based games, and if you change the rules, you take away the challenge, and the fun.
First of all, that trophy idea is retarded. This is not a race, mmos are not a competition they are a game. But if you must use the race analogy, pretend its a charity race. Everyone goes and races however they want. Some people want to race 1mile, some 20miles. Some people sprint it, some walk it. At the end, everyone did it the way that made them feel happy , and EVERYONE gets a trophy cause its not about the race, its about the enjoyment of it all( and it a charity case its about helping others.)
So are you telling me that getting epic raid loot is a trophy for you? That thats what gets your jollies off? I feel sorry for you.
And you say you want to group for the challenge of it, but thats contradictory to your previous statement, as you said you group for the "trophy". So in reality you just want to try to be superior to others in a game, which is again sad, and you really do not care at all about the challenge. Cause if you did, you wouldnt take the easy path, you'd take the hard path, no matter what the reward was. As long as they provide the challenging group content, that should make the groupers happy, not what they give to someone else.
And its not like we are trying to say that groups should get crappy gear and solo'ers the best gear, we are saying that solo'ers should get the same quality gear, but it can take a little longer versus doing it in a group.
Everyone is pointing out that MMO means massively multiplayer, well lets not leave off the rest, RPG, which means role playing GAME. Its just a game, its not a measure of success, its not a ticket to eternal life, its a game, and its a shame you forgot that.
Use any analogy you like, in a game there is a reward. Name a game where there is no reward, and you would have a point.
For some the reward is collecting things. For some the reward is a social environment. For some the reward is building their character. For some the reward is building or participating in a community. From what you have posted so far, for you the reward is getting xp and getting to the cap, but you still haven't explained how another person's path to that reward in any way affects your path to it.
Are you enjoying your path? If so, then what difference does it make if another person's path is shorter or longer?
The difference is that if someone else gets what they get then they wont be able to belittle the other person and they won't be able to feel superior. These are the people that you just nod your head at and feel sorry for.
Use any analogy you like, in a game there is a reward. Name a game where there is no reward, and you would have a point.
For some the reward is collecting things. For some the reward is a social environment. For some the reward is building their character. For some the reward is building or participating in a community. From what you have posted so far, for you the reward is getting xp and getting to the cap, but you still haven't explained how another person's path to that reward in any way affects your path to it.
Are you enjoying your path? If so, then what difference does it make if another person's path is shorter or longer?
Because it will make MY path shorter or longer.
I'm not worried about YOUR path, I'm worried about mine.
I want the marathon race. It's a challenge for me. If you give me the trophy for going one mile, the challenge is gone.
Do you know any race where they say, ok, you get the trophy for going one mile. BUT we'll let you go 2 thousand miles like the Tour De France if you want o, and THEN give you the trophy! You think anyone is going to race 2K miles to the same trophy they can get in one mile? Really? Why do you think that?
I want the grouping game. If you let me get the xp, loot, levels, skills, solo, the challenge is gone. Just likew if you let me get the trophy in one mile, there's no need to go 2 thousand miles, and the challenge is gone.
You're saying, look, we want to change the Tour De France, and if you go one mile, you get the SAME trophy as Lance ARmstrong!
You think that would not change the race?> You think Lance would still pedal 2K miles for that trophy?
I still do not understand why groupers feel that their game is ruined if someone can get the same item soloing that they can get grouping. If you want to group, because you ENJOY to group, then no one is stopping you.
Let's say there's a race. And the winner gets a trophy. And you really enjoy racing, maybe it's a bicycle race like Lance Armstrong. And the trophy would be things like xp, levels, and loot.
So there's a new race about to start. And Lance Armstrong is looking forward to a new challenge, and maybe he can win the trophy again! This is going to be really fun, and challenging!
And then you step in and change the rules. You say, you know, not everyone can bicycle as far as Lance Armstrong (has time to play in a group). So, I"m going to say the new rule is you can get the trophy, if you can bicyle around the block, and you can take as much time as you like.
BUT , if Lance Armstrong wants to bike 2,225 miles for the exact same Trophy, well guess what! he Should be really happy, because we're still going to LET him to that. Because it's fun!
YOu don't see how this changes the race, or changes the game at all? It still seems exactly the same to you?
No grouper is looking for a game that doesn't stop them from grouping dum dum. That's a solo game, Duh. Just like Lance Armstrong isn't looking to enter a race that will LET him bike 2,000 miles OR 1 mile for the same trophy.
Don't ya think that would be retarded?
I don't need to group to socialize. I can socialize without grouping. I want to group because I like challenging team based games, and if you change the rules, you take away the challenge, and the fun.
First of all, that trophy idea is retarded. This is not a race, mmos are not a competition they are a game. But if you must use the race analogy, pretend its a charity race. Everyone goes and races however they want. Some people want to race 1mile, some 20miles. Some people sprint it, some walk it. At the end, everyone did it the way that made them feel happy , and EVERYONE gets a trophy cause its not about the race, its about the enjoyment of it all( and it a charity case its about helping others.)
So are you telling me that getting epic raid loot is a trophy for you? That thats what gets your jollies off? I feel sorry for you.
And you say you want to group for the challenge of it, but thats contradictory to your previous statement, as you said you group for the "trophy". So in reality you just want to try to be superior to others in a game, which is again sad, and you really do not care at all about the challenge. Cause if you did, you wouldnt take the easy path, you'd take the hard path, no matter what the reward was. As long as they provide the challenging group content, that should make the groupers happy, not what they give to someone else.
And its not like we are trying to say that groups should get crappy gear and solo'ers the best gear, we are saying that solo'ers should get the same quality gear, but it can take a little longer versus doing it in a group.
Everyone is pointing out that MMO means massively multiplayer, well lets not leave off the rest, RPG, which means role playing GAME. Its just a game, its not a measure of success, its not a ticket to eternal life, its a game, and its a shame you forgot that.
No, dum dum.
I want character progression.
I don't want to be superior to YOU, I want to be superior to the MOBs.
And I want that character progression by doing group play.
If I can gety the same progression solo, then why would I bother to group, since grouping is much harder than soloing? The challenge to group would be gone, so the fun would be gone.
Use any analogy you like, in a game there is a reward. Name a game where there is no reward, and you would have a point.
For some the reward is collecting things. For some the reward is a social environment. For some the reward is building their character. For some the reward is building or participating in a community. From what you have posted so far, for you the reward is getting xp and getting to the cap, but you still haven't explained how another person's path to that reward in any way affects your path to it.
Are you enjoying your path? If so, then what difference does it make if another person's path is shorter or longer?
The difference is that if someone else gets what they get then they wont be able to belittle the other person and they won't be able to feel superior. These are the people that you just nod your head at and feel sorry for.
Or maybe I just want to play a good grouping game?
You think people that play team sports like Basketball, Football, Soccer do it to belittle people that play solo sports like Golf and Tennis?
Because it will make MY path shorter or longer. I'm not worried about YOUR path, I'm worried about mine. I want the marathon race. It's a challenge for me. If you give me the trophy for going one mile, the challenge is gone. Do you know any race where they say, ok, you get the trophy for going one mile. BUT we'll let you go 2 thousand miles like the Tour De France if you want o, and THEN give you the trophy! You think anyone is going to race 2K miles to the same trophy they can get in one mile? Really? Why do you think that? I want the grouping game. If you let me get the xp, loot, levels, skills, solo, the challenge is gone. Just likew if you let me get the trophy in one mile, there's no need to go 2 thousand miles, and the challenge is gone. You're saying, look, we want to change the Tour De France, and if you go one mile, you get the SAME trophy as Lance ARmstrong! You think that would not change the race?> You think Lance would still pedal 2K miles for that trophy?
I still don't see the connection between a competitive race and leveling in an online game unless you are saying that you are racing against others to get to the cap. In an MMO, there is no trophy for being the first or fastest to the cap. You keep referring to the rules being changed but I don't know of many mainstream MMOs where the game was designed with the intent of creating a race to the cap for the players. It seems like most are designed to be quite the opposite - a journey to enjoy and experience, not race past.
Have you considered switching to browser-based MMOs? They usually have leaderboards and player rankings, and they are designed for players who enjoy competing to get to the top of the charts the fastest.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Comments
Because whether people group or not doesnt affect soloers -in any way-, unlike soloers affect grouping in a negative way.
Depends on the game i would think. How does a soloer affect a grouper any different than someone who doesn't even play mmorpgs would affect a grouper?
One of the attractive aspects of mmos (for me) is the server-moderated gameplay. I prefer single player games but I don't like the ability to hit the SAVE button (or AUTOSAVE progress). I prefer having the server record my progress, for some reason it feels more immersive, particularly as NPCs seem to spawn and behave a bit more randomly than games that live only on your harddrive. So, I would be interested in a single-player adventure game of this type. What would you call it? A massive SORPG? LOL.
But, going to the topic at hand. I play mmos as a single player 99% of the time. After I have solo'd to maximum template, I will often go into dungeons and solo what I can. I will group when I must to do a group instance as long as it has a needed quest reward. If it requires raiding with a dice roll to get boss loot, then I will not do the dungeon unless it is to help out a friend. Of course, this means I will miss a significant amount of content and it usually means, as in WoW, that I will miss out on the best armor and fighting gear. Sometimes, I extended the life of my solo character by dual-boxing.
Obviously, given my playstyle, I do not like doing repetitive dungeon runs. It was fun doing a dungeon instance once, but not over and over with the slim hope of winning a dice roll for boss loot (if it happened to drop your needed class item). I agree with previous posters who said that RAID PvE content was just a way for a game company to force you to extend your sub!
Personally, I most enjoyed instance grouping way back in the SWG preCU days when the main reward was an experience badge. Ha, ha, particularly with a group of jedi as everyone was a healer/tank/nuker all rolled into one!
Community suffers & they're not as experienced in a group, so when the time comes when they have to/want to group they're messing things up because they haven't been taught the mechanics from the start. If they start learning them at the level cap, it's even worse.
The reason they can't "balance" solo and group play is because players and developers are under the mistaken impression that they apply to the same thing and function in the same way.
Why can't they balance apples and oranges? Because they are different colors obviously ...
Once again, group and solo play can of course be balanced, as can casual and hardcore play. Giving one group exclusive rewards is, by definition, not balanced. What such a game cannot achieve is giving any specific playstyle group access to exclusively superior rewards, which is what the hardcore and groupers who argue against such a game actually want, even though they keep trying to dress it up as something else.
It's only self-evident if you define "hard" as "can only be accomplished as a group"; that is only a self-serving definition. There are other ways to make advancing aspects of the game "hard" without resorting to "larger and larger groups". Sequences of finely tuned solo-instances or lock-out common area fights can be made to be very difficult.
The only reason to equate "groups" with "difficulty" is to rationalize the desire for grouping to deliver exclusively superior rewards. In any event, there is no law that says that just because you did something "harder" than the next guy, you should be able to get the reward and he shouldn't; it could equally mean that you just get the reward a lot faster than he does.
Community suffers & they're not as experienced in a group, so when the time comes when they have to/want to group they're messing things up because they haven't been taught the mechanics from the start. If they start learning them at the level cap, it's even worse.
I said different than when someone doesn't play at all. If community suffers (which i am not convinced of), it would suffer even more with someone who never played. A soloer can and probably would take part of the community, but not grouping. The demands are different.
Miss the point-day today it seems.
People would embrace it if they could. The thing is, it's up to the devs to make it more like RL is, and not some half-assed copy that's only a half of what it is.
Here's a point that I think you keep missing: a lot of soloers and casual don't group because it's a forced dynamic. There is a lot of pressure on being able to fulfill your "role" in a group, and to pay very close attention to what is going on. In most groups I've ever been in, there is virtually no "socializing" going on because the players are intent on maximizing their efficiency because you never know when someone is going to bail, or go afk for a stretch. Also, you may not really know anyone else, so you largely just want to shut up and focus on performing your task so you don't screw up whatever you're trying to accomplish.
If you're a casual player, you don't really like to inflict your casualness on groups because often you have to go afk or you don't really know exactly what to do in every situation. I remember getting into groups where everyone was supposed to "know" about how certain things were supposed to be done; I didn't have a clue wtf was going on, and asking would generally just get me dissed one way or another. To understand how to play your role in a group, you basically have to group a lot for a large portion of your career, to learn how the other classes play their roles and how your role changes with the situation.
My point is this: IF the importance of grouping as a means of obtaining exclusively superior content was removed, there's a lot of us who would group more because it isn't a pressurized, responsibility-laden situation for our characters. Grouping would be more like after-hours socializing, not the kind of forced socializing one must do because they're on a job.
The ironic thing is that is what many people here keep referring to when they try to justify forced grouping: a job. Well, most of us have jobs, where we are forced to group for our rewards. When we get off work and fire up a game, we'd still like to socialize, but for enjoyment and entertainment with people we like, not because we want a situation that is like a 2nd job, and especially not a 2nd job where some 15yr old is screaming at us because we went AFK to fix little Johnny's boo boo and the team broke up and they didn't get to get their exclusive Axe of Zits that time.
If I go bowling, I pay my money and I can still bowl a perfect game, whether or not I'm in a group. What's the point of grouping if you're going to bowl? Answer: it's fun.
Miss the point-day today it seems.
People would embrace it if they could. The thing is, it's up to the devs to make it more like RL is, and not some half-assed copy that's only a half of what it is.
Here's a point that I think you keep missing: a lot of soloers and casual don't group because it's a forced dynamic. There is a lot of pressure on being able to fulfill your "role" in a group, and to pay very close attention to what is going on.
The ironic thing is that is what many people here keep referring to when they try to justify forced grouping: a job. Well, most of us have jobs, where we are forced to group for our rewards. When we get off work and fire up a game, we'd still like to socialize, but for enjoyment and entertainment with people we like, not because we want a situation that is like a 2nd job, and especially not a 2nd job where some 15yr old is screaming at us because we went AFK to fix little Johnny's boo boo and the team broke up and they didn't get to get their exclusive Axe of Zits that time.
If I go bowling, I pay my money and I can still bowl a perfect game, whether or not I'm in a group. What's the point of grouping if you're going to bowl? Answer: it's fun.
Answer: it's for YOU because you like to solo. It's not fun for me if you are bowling on my alley where there are teams competing for a trophy, and you get to compete for the trophy solo. You just screwed up the entire game.
Here's the point you don't get. The part groupers like, is the part you don't like. When we change the game for you, it ruins it for us.
That part about having to play very close attention to what is going on and play your role? THAT'S THE ONLY PART OF THE GAME I LIKE!
If you take taht part out, and you do if I, me, myself, not you, can solo the game, then the game is ruined for me.
If you bowl and you don't compete for the same trophy, then you're right it would not affect me, and I would not care.
That would mean I'm playinjg DAoC, and you are playing WoW.
If I"m playing the same game as you, anbd you can solo, then so can I, and the group game is worthless. Don't act like your solo rules don't affect me, because they do.
Miss the point-day today it seems.
People would embrace it if they could. The thing is, it's up to the devs to make it more like RL is, and not some half-assed copy that's only a half of what it is.
Here's a point that I think you keep missing: a lot of soloers and casual don't group because it's a forced dynamic. There is a lot of pressure on being able to fulfill your "role" in a group, and to pay very close attention to what is going on.
The ironic thing is that is what many people here keep referring to when they try to justify forced grouping: a job. Well, most of us have jobs, where we are forced to group for our rewards. When we get off work and fire up a game, we'd still like to socialize, but for enjoyment and entertainment with people we like, not because we want a situation that is like a 2nd job, and especially not a 2nd job where some 15yr old is screaming at us because we went AFK to fix little Johnny's boo boo and the team broke up and they didn't get to get their exclusive Axe of Zits that time.
If I go bowling, I pay my money and I can still bowl a perfect game, whether or not I'm in a group. What's the point of grouping if you're going to bowl? Answer: it's fun.
Answer: it's for YOU because you like to solo. It's not fun for me if you are bowling on my alley where there are teams competing for a trophy, and you get to compete for the trophy solo. You just screwed up the entire game.
Here's the point you don't get. The part groupers like, is the part you don't like. When we change the game for you, it ruins it for us.
That part about having to play very close attention to what is going on and play your role? THAT'S THE ONLY PART OF THE GAME I LIKE!
If you take taht part out, and you do if I, me, myself, not you, can solo the game, then the game is ruined for me.
If you bowl and you don't compete for the same trophy, then you're right it would not affect me, and I would not care.
That would mean I'm playinjg DAoC, and you are playing WoW.
If I"m playing the same game as you, anbd you can solo, then so can I, and the group game is worthless. Don't act like your solo rules don't affect me, because they do.
I don't want to bowl in "your" alley. I don't want you playing the same game I'm playing. There is more than one MMOG in the world. You can have your game. Nobody is saying otherwise. I'm not going to come "crash" your group-style game. Do you really think we're going to convince all game developers to abandon the group-exclusivity model? Of course not. We're just trying to get a game or two created tha actually ***allow** casuals and soloers to **eventually** reach top content and gain top rewards.
As I said before, I promise not to take my character from that game and insert it into yours to spoil your fun.
What you don't get is that up until now soloers and casuals that want to be in MMOGs don't have a game to play that allows them to experience top content and rewards eventually, so **we** are the ones that **have to** come to your bowling alley if we want to play at all. You bowling alley tries to half-a$$ accomodate us by setting us up some lanes in the back and offering 1/10th the cash reward for our top games as you get. Who is this supposed to make happy?
Here's a clue: advocate WITH US for our own solo and casual-friendly bowling alley, and you won't have to put up with us in **YOUR** alley, complaining because all the top cash rewards only go to groups. We're not going away, we're just going to hang out in your alley bit**ing about it until someone builds our alley.
It's only self-evident if you define "hard" as "can only be accomplished as a group"; that is only a self-serving definition. There are other ways to make advancing aspects of the game "hard" without resorting to "larger and larger groups". Sequences of finely tuned solo-instances or lock-out common area fights can be made to be very difficult.
The only reason to equate "groups" with "difficulty" is to rationalize the desire for grouping to deliver exclusively superior rewards. In any event, there is no law that says that just because you did something "harder" than the next guy, you should be able to get the reward and he shouldn't; it could equally mean that you just get the reward a lot faster than he does.
"There are other ways to make advancing aspects of the game "hard" without resorting to "larger and larger groups". Sequences of finely tuned solo-instances or lock-out common area fights can be made to be very difficult."
Yes it's possible to have hard solo content and if the games had hard solo content then you'd see a bigger percentage of people grouping. There's maybe 10% of people who particularly like grouping and would prefer to group, 10% who would always want to solo no matter what and 80% who decide based on cost-benefit. It's self-evidently true that if those 80% are almost all soloing then it must be the easiest path. If soloing was harder then some of that 80% would be grouping.
WAR: 90% people soloing the PvE, then 2 minutes later when they enter an RvR battleground the same people immediately group up. It's human nature.
"The only reason to equate "groups" with "difficulty" is to rationalize the desire for grouping to deliver exclusively superior rewards."
Not the only reason. In all the games I've tried I've never been max level when it was max level, never raided, never will raid and never will get interested in a gear grinding game.
My reason is: EQ1 was a bit too much mob-grinding and games like WoW reacted in the opposite direction and made it too much solo quest grinding instead. I think a blend of the two would be better, something like 1/3 solo quest grinding and 2/3 mob grinding where the cost/benefit pushed players towards dangerous chaotic dungeons where it made sense to group but you could solo if you liked a challenge.
Well said.
I can either solo or group in a game; I honestly do not care which (unless I'm in a horrible mood and just want to engage in some pixellated slaughter for a little while as a stress reliever ;P ).
I also honestly could care less that there are those out there who would rather play in groups all the time, even to go fishing. If that is what a player enjoys, I say more power to them. We all pay the same $15 a month, so we should all be able to play the game in the manner we prefer (so long as it doesn't violate the TOS, the EULA and good taste).
By the same token, since all players do pay the same $15 a month, it is my opinion that all players should be eligible for the same rewards, no matter what their preferred playstyle. While it would certainly be crazy for soloers to expect to get that Sword of Fiery Deathstrikes in a single solo run through the Cavern of Unending Doom (the idea of a random number of runs somewhere between 10 and 50 does sound like a good idea to me personally, but then, I enjoy attempting to solo "group" instances just to see how far I will get), it should, in my opinion, still be possible for a solo player to eventually have a chance to obtain the Sword of Fiery Deathstrikes if the solo player is willing to put enough effort into the game to run the Cavern of Unending Doom ad nauseum until it drops. Currently, in many games, it is not possible and that is, I believe, a huge part of the problem: developers are, whether deliberately or not, creating a system of inherent inequality wherein only one choice of playstyle is considered acceptable even though all choices of playstyle are made available.
Firebrand Art
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
I still do not understand why groupers feel that their game is ruined if someone can get the same item soloing that they can get grouping.
If you want to group, because you ENJOY to group, then no one is stopping you. But the problem is that the so called Pro-groupers are not whining on this forum because their group content is being attacked. They are whining because they feel threatened that they wont be able to show off how "uber" they are in game and then they wont be able to degrade everyone else who doesnt get to do the group content and didnt receive the same rewards.
Thats all it comes down to, plain and simple, if those pro groupers would sit back and realize its just a game, and the real world does not care what weapon you are wielding then this post would have ended a long time ago.
So if you like to group to be with people in a more social gaming aspect, then I have no objections to you. They should definitely continue to give content designated as group content, and perhaps speed up the rewards process and xp/gold rewards. But by no means should they automatically cut non-groupers off from any possible chance of the end game rewards.
Thats why I personally always preferred games that rewards icons/points that you accumlated via various means in varying amounts depending on content completed, and could purchase your rewards that way. But also, I prefer that crafted items be just as powerful as dropped items but thats a different discussion.
I wonder what % of WoW players are "true" solo players as in they never group or do so rarely it doesn't even matter.
What would they really do?
Daily quests, finish all the non-elite/solo quest chains in every zone.
Seasonal event stuff.
Crafting (limited by raid drops or badges required for high level crafting)
It has to be less then 5%.
Maybe even less then 1%.
I'd say the "average" solo player does their dailies solo and does Battlegrounds, which are forced grouping. They may occassional get into a PUG for the daily instance or daily heroic. They may even join a PUG raid for content a few patches old like a 10 Naxx or something
Those players? Maybe 20-30% depending on the server. Maybe we'll call them "solo players who group."
Everyone else, anyone in any guild is not really a solo player. You can do some game stuff solo but as long as you are in a guild and do the occasional forced grouping activity like dungeons/BGs you are not a "true" solo player.
Those are probably a good 60-70% depending on server, with the final 10%-20% or so as more "hardcore" players that usually play every day and always do group activities like Arena, Battlegrounds, Dungeons, and raiding.
So...
Is World of Warcraft a solo game? Anything but.
The best part? Those 10-20% who play everyday and are always involved in group activities get the best gear and they get it the fastest.
Kind of.. makes... sense doesn't it?
The solo players who group and true solo players can still gear up through crafting and buying BoE epics of the AH, or with their occassional PUG or BG they can eventually purchase gear rewards.
Seems fair and balanced to me.
Let's say there's a race. And the winner gets a trophy. And you really enjoy racing, maybe it's a bicycle race like Lance Armstrong. And the trophy would be things like xp, levels, and loot.
So there's a new race about to start. And Lance Armstrong is looking forward to a new challenge, and maybe he can win the trophy again! This is going to be really fun, and challenging!
And then you step in and change the rules. You say, you know, not everyone can bicycle as far as Lance Armstrong (has time to play in a group). So, I"m going to say the new rule is you can get the trophy, if you can bicyle around the block, and you can take as much time as you like.
BUT , if Lance Armstrong wants to bike 2,225 miles for the exact same Trophy, well guess what! he Should be really happy, because we're still going to LET him to that. Because it's fun!
YOu don't see how this changes the race, or changes the game at all? It still seems exactly the same to you?
No grouper is looking for a game that doesn't stop them from grouping dum dum. That's a solo game, Duh. Just like Lance Armstrong isn't looking to enter a race that will LET him bike 2,000 miles OR 1 mile for the same trophy.
Don't ya think that would be retarded?
I don't need to group to socialize. I can socialize without grouping. I want to group because I like challenging team based games, and if you change the rules, you take away the challenge, and the fun.
Let's say there's a race. And the winner gets a trophy. And you really enjoy racing, maybe it's a bicycle race like Lance Armstrong. And the trophy would be things like xp, levels, and loot.
So there's a new race about to start. And Lance Armstrong is looking forward to a new challenge, and maybe he can win the trophy again! This is going to be really fun, and challenging!
And then you step in and change the rules. You say, you know, not everyone can bicycle as far as Lance Armstrong (has time to play in a group). So, I"m going to say the new rule is you can get the trophy, if you can bicyle around the block, and you can take as much time as you like.
BUT , if Lance Armstrong wants to bike 2,225 miles for the exact same Trophy, well guess what! he Should be really happy, because we're still going to LET him to that. Because it's fun!
YOu don't see how this changes the race, or changes the game at all? It still seems exactly the same to you?
No grouper is looking for a game that doesn't stop them from grouping dum dum. That's a solo game, Duh. Just like Lance Armstrong isn't looking to enter a race that will LET him bike 2,000 miles OR 1 mile for the same trophy.
Don't ya think that would be retarded?
I don't need to group to socialize. I can socialize without grouping. I want to group because I like challenging team based games, and if you change the rules, you take away the challenge, and the fun.
You just ruined your own argument.
It's because you think of it as a race that solo and group play can never be balanced.
Let's say there's a race. And the winner gets a trophy. And you really enjoy racing, maybe it's a bicycle race like Lance Armstrong. And the trophy would be things like xp, levels, and loot.
So there's a new race about to start. And Lance Armstrong is looking forward to a new challenge, and maybe he can win the trophy again! This is going to be really fun, and challenging!
And then you step in and change the rules. You say, you know, not everyone can bicycle as far as Lance Armstrong (has time to play in a group). So, I"m going to say the new rule is you can get the trophy, if you can bicyle around the block, and you can take as much time as you like.
BUT , if Lance Armstrong wants to bike 2,225 miles for the exact same Trophy, well guess what! he Should be really happy, because we're still going to LET him to that. Because it's fun!
YOu don't see how this changes the race, or changes the game at all? It still seems exactly the same to you?
No grouper is looking for a game that doesn't stop them from grouping dum dum. That's a solo game, Duh. Just like Lance Armstrong isn't looking to enter a race that will LET him bike 2,000 miles OR 1 mile for the same trophy.
Don't ya think that would be retarded?
I don't need to group to socialize. I can socialize without grouping. I want to group because I like challenging team based games, and if you change the rules, you take away the challenge, and the fun.
You just ruined your own argument.
It's because you think of it as a race that solo and group play can never be balanced.
Use any analogy you like, in a game there is a reward.
Name a game where there is no reward, and you would have a point.
IN a game wiht no xp, and no loot, no levels, no increase in skillz, I would agree wiht you 100%.
However, your argument is defeated, because an MMORPG is a game with rewards. They are called Xp, loot, levels, and skillz.
For some the reward is collecting things. For some the reward is a social environment. For some the reward is building their character. For some the reward is building or participating in a community. From what you have posted so far, for you the reward is getting xp and getting to the cap, but you still haven't explained how another person's path to that reward in any way affects your path to it.
Are you enjoying your path? If so, then what difference does it make if another person's path is shorter or longer?
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Let's say there's a race. And the winner gets a trophy. And you really enjoy racing, maybe it's a bicycle race like Lance Armstrong. And the trophy would be things like xp, levels, and loot.
So there's a new race about to start. And Lance Armstrong is looking forward to a new challenge, and maybe he can win the trophy again! This is going to be really fun, and challenging!
And then you step in and change the rules. You say, you know, not everyone can bicycle as far as Lance Armstrong (has time to play in a group). So, I"m going to say the new rule is you can get the trophy, if you can bicyle around the block, and you can take as much time as you like.
BUT , if Lance Armstrong wants to bike 2,225 miles for the exact same Trophy, well guess what! he Should be really happy, because we're still going to LET him to that. Because it's fun!
YOu don't see how this changes the race, or changes the game at all? It still seems exactly the same to you?
No grouper is looking for a game that doesn't stop them from grouping dum dum. That's a solo game, Duh. Just like Lance Armstrong isn't looking to enter a race that will LET him bike 2,000 miles OR 1 mile for the same trophy.
Don't ya think that would be retarded?
I don't need to group to socialize. I can socialize without grouping. I want to group because I like challenging team based games, and if you change the rules, you take away the challenge, and the fun.
First of all, that trophy idea is retarded. This is not a race, mmos are not a competition they are a game. But if you must use the race analogy, pretend its a charity race. Everyone goes and races however they want. Some people want to race 1mile, some 20miles. Some people sprint it, some walk it. At the end, everyone did it the way that made them feel happy , and EVERYONE gets a trophy cause its not about the race, its about the enjoyment of it all( and it a charity case its about helping others.)
So are you telling me that getting epic raid loot is a trophy for you? That thats what gets your jollies off? I feel sorry for you.
And you say you want to group for the challenge of it, but thats contradictory to your previous statement, as you said you group for the "trophy". So in reality you just want to try to be superior to others in a game, which is again sad, and you really do not care at all about the challenge. Cause if you did, you wouldnt take the easy path, you'd take the hard path, no matter what the reward was. As long as they provide the challenging group content, that should make the groupers happy, not what they give to someone else.
And its not like we are trying to say that groups should get crappy gear and solo'ers the best gear, we are saying that solo'ers should get the same quality gear, but it can take a little longer versus doing it in a group.
Everyone is pointing out that MMO means massively multiplayer, well lets not leave off the rest, RPG, which means role playing GAME. Its just a game, its not a measure of success, its not a ticket to eternal life, its a game, and its a shame you forgot that.
For some the reward is collecting things. For some the reward is a social environment. For some the reward is building their character. For some the reward is building or participating in a community. From what you have posted so far, for you the reward is getting xp and getting to the cap, but you still haven't explained how another person's path to that reward in any way affects your path to it.
Are you enjoying your path? If so, then what difference does it make if another person's path is shorter or longer?
The difference is that if someone else gets what they get then they wont be able to belittle the other person and they won't be able to feel superior. These are the people that you just nod your head at and feel sorry for.
For some the reward is collecting things. For some the reward is a social environment. For some the reward is building their character. For some the reward is building or participating in a community. From what you have posted so far, for you the reward is getting xp and getting to the cap, but you still haven't explained how another person's path to that reward in any way affects your path to it.
Are you enjoying your path? If so, then what difference does it make if another person's path is shorter or longer?
Because it will make MY path shorter or longer.
I'm not worried about YOUR path, I'm worried about mine.
I want the marathon race. It's a challenge for me. If you give me the trophy for going one mile, the challenge is gone.
Do you know any race where they say, ok, you get the trophy for going one mile. BUT we'll let you go 2 thousand miles like the Tour De France if you want o, and THEN give you the trophy! You think anyone is going to race 2K miles to the same trophy they can get in one mile? Really? Why do you think that?
I want the grouping game. If you let me get the xp, loot, levels, skills, solo, the challenge is gone. Just likew if you let me get the trophy in one mile, there's no need to go 2 thousand miles, and the challenge is gone.
You're saying, look, we want to change the Tour De France, and if you go one mile, you get the SAME trophy as Lance ARmstrong!
You think that would not change the race?> You think Lance would still pedal 2K miles for that trophy?
Let's say there's a race. And the winner gets a trophy. And you really enjoy racing, maybe it's a bicycle race like Lance Armstrong. And the trophy would be things like xp, levels, and loot.
So there's a new race about to start. And Lance Armstrong is looking forward to a new challenge, and maybe he can win the trophy again! This is going to be really fun, and challenging!
And then you step in and change the rules. You say, you know, not everyone can bicycle as far as Lance Armstrong (has time to play in a group). So, I"m going to say the new rule is you can get the trophy, if you can bicyle around the block, and you can take as much time as you like.
BUT , if Lance Armstrong wants to bike 2,225 miles for the exact same Trophy, well guess what! he Should be really happy, because we're still going to LET him to that. Because it's fun!
YOu don't see how this changes the race, or changes the game at all? It still seems exactly the same to you?
No grouper is looking for a game that doesn't stop them from grouping dum dum. That's a solo game, Duh. Just like Lance Armstrong isn't looking to enter a race that will LET him bike 2,000 miles OR 1 mile for the same trophy.
Don't ya think that would be retarded?
I don't need to group to socialize. I can socialize without grouping. I want to group because I like challenging team based games, and if you change the rules, you take away the challenge, and the fun.
First of all, that trophy idea is retarded. This is not a race, mmos are not a competition they are a game. But if you must use the race analogy, pretend its a charity race. Everyone goes and races however they want. Some people want to race 1mile, some 20miles. Some people sprint it, some walk it. At the end, everyone did it the way that made them feel happy , and EVERYONE gets a trophy cause its not about the race, its about the enjoyment of it all( and it a charity case its about helping others.)
So are you telling me that getting epic raid loot is a trophy for you? That thats what gets your jollies off? I feel sorry for you.
And you say you want to group for the challenge of it, but thats contradictory to your previous statement, as you said you group for the "trophy". So in reality you just want to try to be superior to others in a game, which is again sad, and you really do not care at all about the challenge. Cause if you did, you wouldnt take the easy path, you'd take the hard path, no matter what the reward was. As long as they provide the challenging group content, that should make the groupers happy, not what they give to someone else.
And its not like we are trying to say that groups should get crappy gear and solo'ers the best gear, we are saying that solo'ers should get the same quality gear, but it can take a little longer versus doing it in a group.
Everyone is pointing out that MMO means massively multiplayer, well lets not leave off the rest, RPG, which means role playing GAME. Its just a game, its not a measure of success, its not a ticket to eternal life, its a game, and its a shame you forgot that.
No, dum dum.
I want character progression.
I don't want to be superior to YOU, I want to be superior to the MOBs.
And I want that character progression by doing group play.
If I can gety the same progression solo, then why would I bother to group, since grouping is much harder than soloing? The challenge to group would be gone, so the fun would be gone.
For some the reward is collecting things. For some the reward is a social environment. For some the reward is building their character. For some the reward is building or participating in a community. From what you have posted so far, for you the reward is getting xp and getting to the cap, but you still haven't explained how another person's path to that reward in any way affects your path to it.
Are you enjoying your path? If so, then what difference does it make if another person's path is shorter or longer?
The difference is that if someone else gets what they get then they wont be able to belittle the other person and they won't be able to feel superior. These are the people that you just nod your head at and feel sorry for.
Or maybe I just want to play a good grouping game?
You think people that play team sports like Basketball, Football, Soccer do it to belittle people that play solo sports like Golf and Tennis?
Why would you think that?
I still don't see the connection between a competitive race and leveling in an online game unless you are saying that you are racing against others to get to the cap. In an MMO, there is no trophy for being the first or fastest to the cap. You keep referring to the rules being changed but I don't know of many mainstream MMOs where the game was designed with the intent of creating a race to the cap for the players. It seems like most are designed to be quite the opposite - a journey to enjoy and experience, not race past.
Have you considered switching to browser-based MMOs? They usually have leaderboards and player rankings, and they are designed for players who enjoy competing to get to the top of the charts the fastest.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?