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Aion's Downfall: Too much RNG, Simplicity, and Broken?
In order for a game to get better, you need to point out/discuss it's flaws and not be blind to them. This will ONLY be about Aion's END-GAME PVP.
NOTE: If you can provide any accurate/factual information pertaining to this thread OR BETTER Aion Videos, I WILL change my main post with them as long as they are revelant.
I will break this down into 3 categories to make this easy to read
1.RNG(Random Number Generator)
2.Simplicity
3.Broken
1.RNG:
The game should not rely on how lucky you are but instead rely on how good of a player you are.
-You have RNG CC/Snares durations and RNG even decides if the CC/Snare lands in the first place.
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Don't believe me?
Counterslash IV
Upon success of Evasion, inflicts 210~214 physical damage on the target and stuns it temporarily at a certain rate(This refers to the stun successfully landing or not.).
Ambush V
Moves to the back of a target within a 20m radius to inflict 168~172 physical damage, and stuns it at a [B]certain rate[/B].
Pattern Explosion IV
Erases the Pattern engraved on a target within a 10m radius up to the level of 1 and sets it to burst, damaging and stunning the target.
Damage level and stunning probability vary depending on the Pattern level.
Snare Arrow IV
Attacks the legs of a target within a 0m radius to inflict 177~181 physical damage on it. The target's movement speed is reduced for 4~16 sec.(WTF? That's a pretty big gap to leave up to the dice roll.)
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This makes fights VERY random. The game should not rely on how lucky you are but instead rely on how good of a player you are. If the game was designed without RNG on CC, it would be much more skill-based.
Good example of a game that fixed a problem like this: WoW used to have random stuns, the way they fixed this was make stuns are 100% chance to land, NOTHING does random stuns, give them diminishing returns(more than one stun used within a short time gets halved, quartered, then immune.) , and instead of giving players resistance against stuns, they gave players ways to reduce the DURATION of the stuns.
-Melee attacks RANDOMLY interrupt spell casts.
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Don't believe me?
Go attack an enemy casting a spell, there is a random chance that they will stop and it will say "You have interrupted a spell cast".
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This is just another way to let the RNG gods decide the outcome of fights. Very bad decision to let this go through. Having to stack a specific stat to counter RNG isn't a viable solution, it needs to be removed from the game.
Good example of a game that fixed a problem like this: WoW has a thing called Spell Pushback:
When casting a spell: The first and second hit will add .5 secs each to the cast time.
All hits after the second will have no effect.
When channelling a spell: The first and second hit reduce current duration by 25% of total duration each.
All hits after the second will have no effect.
WoW also gives players spell interrupts that you actually need to TIME yourself. Let's look at one:
Kick
Interrupts spellcasting and prevents any spell in that school from being cast for 5 sec.
Not only interrupts a spell, but rewards you with silencing your enemy. Because of this, Casters have a tactic called "Spell Juking", where you can cast a spell then move and cancel your spell in an attempt to BAIT your enemy's spell interrupt, out-smarting your enemy.
-Combos get interrupted by earlier combo steps RANDOMLY missing.
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Don't believe me?
Try using a combo after part of the combo misses, it doesn't work.
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Everyone has heard of parry/dodging abilities, right? Well this is COMPLETELY out of your control in Aion. This type of RNG gives luckier players a MAJOR advantage. It's enough that your attack missed randomly but it completely screws your ENTIRE combo chain??? This is RNG affecting fights to a new extreme since combos are very important.
Good example of a game that fixed a problem like this: In WoW, you cannot parry/dodge unless attacked from the FRONT. In Aion, you have a nifty little feature called AUTO-FACE! Spells also don't randomly resist in WoW, unless you aren't hitcapped or offensive dispelling.
2.Simplicity:
The more simplistic the game is the faster it gets boring. There is a difference between being accessible and the game overall being too easy.
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Don't believe me?
Watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf9qmnee8l4 What do you see? EVERY Assassin uses the SAME combo of abilities standing STILL:
1. Stun your enemy. 2. PRAY your stuns don't MISS
3. Lift your enemy in the air. 4. PRAY your lift doesn't MISS
5. Finish off your enemy with your attack combos. 6. PRAY your combos don't MISS
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This game basically RELIES on RNG to make the game ANY interesting. Everyone in the video that loses either had their stuns/lift get resisted or didn't click it as fast as their opponent. It doesn't get any more simplistic than that where who ever spams their stuns/lift the fastest wins, goodluck on them not being resisted!
Good example of a game that fixed a problem like this: This is a Rogue vs Rogue duel video so it can be more easily compared to the Assassin duel video.
Watch this:(sound was sadly removed due to WMG)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m2Kd2Ig_-g
What you will see is
-They won't be standing still, movement is extremely important(Not made important through gimmicky buffs.) as you can see they are all over the place.
-You will see amazing twitch reaction/timing of abilities.
-Fights are different, they aren't winning the same way in every fight.
-Controlled CC, stuns/CC don't RANDOMLY resist, if you use a stun, they get stunned.
-Amazing use of COUNTERS. They have vanish that can be used to escape(Can be countered by putting a bleed on the rogue at the cost of losing burst damage and breaking some CCs you can put on them like blind/gouge.) or if timed correctly it can completely NEGATE an ability. Also have PvP trinket, 2min cooldown, to REMOVE CCs on yourself which must be used smartly.
I could not find any other good recent Rogue vs Rogue videos, so if you want something newer than that, here:
Arena/Duels Rogue PvP:
http://roguerogue.com/2009/06/18/eviscerate-arenas-volume-vi/
Want to compare caster simplicity? Watch as this caster uses the SAME spells rotation/Tactics in EVERY fight. Where is the strategy/twitch reaction/good timing of spells?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAAxr8F30xY
Now in comparison watch
Warlock PvP:
http://www.wegame.com/watch/Mysteries_5_This_is_now/ / http://warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=116479 (Both links are same video, different stream sites though for whatever you prefer.)
Great twitch reaction, precision, and use of abilities at the right time in order to come out on top. Your average MMO player CANNOT play at this level.
Or you can watch
Mage PvP:
http://www.wegame.com/watch/Decus_II_Nukem_Frost_Fire_World_BG_PvP/ / http://warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=116541 (Both links are same video, different stream sites though for whatever you prefer.)
3.Broken:
Not talking about your typical class unbalances here because all MMOs suffer from that though some games are more balanced than others so I will not be talking about Class imbalances but instead talk about the game overall.
-Abilties on MAJORLY long cooldowns ranging up all the way to 1hour.
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Don't believe me?
http://www.aionarmory.com/spell.aspx?id=937 team getting wrecked? just use this every 30MINUTES.
Someone owning you? That's okay, you can nearly one-shot them when your 1HOUR abilities are off cooldown, http://www.aionarmory.com/spell.aspx?id=943 and http://www.aionarmory.com/spell.aspx?id=1453 for example
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Having cooldowns is a good thing, it's a way to balance abilities better than others and forces you to use/time them wisely. Cooldowns only become a problem once these become so insanely long that instead of being a part of your character's playstyle, they are more for the overpoweredness of the ability you only use to gain an immediate advantage/change the tide of the battle.
Good example of a game that fixed a problem like this: WoW lowered the cooldowns of overpowered abilities and balanced them so they can actually be a part of your playstyle.
Example:
Recklessness
Special ability attacks have an additional 100% chance to critically hit but all damage taken is increased by 20%. Lasts 12 sec.
30 MINUTE COOLDOWN
turns into
Recklessness
Your next 3 special ability attacks have an additional 100% to critically hit but all damage taken is increased by 20%. Lasts 12 sec.
5 MINUTE COOLDOWN
-Consumables, consumables, and more consumables!
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Don't believe me?
http://www.aionarmory.com/item.aspx?id=169000002 stack these and you can completely destroy someone in a fight. This should ONLY be allowed in PvE, what are they thinking?
http://www.aionarmory.com/item.aspx?id=164000076 This is a must have. 20% speed for 5minutes, WTF? Don't forget http://www.aionarmory.com/item.aspx?id=164000079 for Flight Speed!
http://www.aionarmory.com/item.aspx?id=164000073 What DPSer wouldn't be using this all the time?
Can't wait to be rebuffing myself every 5minutes with 3 scrolls in PvP, super fun.
http://www.aionarmory.com/item.aspx?id=162000023 You cannot be serious... A potion which removes CC???
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This is absolutely terrible, I should not make sure that I FARM consumables before I want to PvP. Nerf or completely remove consumables like these, that is just ridiculous. If you want to better balance overpowered items like them, make them non-limited items that you don't lose after using, put cooldowns on them, and lower the duration to be MUCH lower because 5 minutes is crazy.
Good example of a game that fixed a problem like this: WoW has
1. Disallowed the use of consumables in the Arena, the place you gain the best rewards.
2. Puts a debuff on your character that doesn't allow you to use another consumable until you leave combat.
3. Any buffs outside of boosting damage, health, or healing is reduced to at most a 30second buff.
5. Removed overpowered consumables
6. Buffs of the same type do NOT stack.
-Gaining the best rewards in the Abyss requires nearly giving up your life.
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Don't believe me?
Read some interviews of top Abyss Players on http://www.elliotinaion.wordpress.com
Q. How much do you play in Abyss?
A. I basically live there. I can?t sleep until I?ve gotten 20k points. (laughs)
I spend most of the day pvping in Abyss.
Over 12 hours.
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MMOs should be a break from real life, not a SUBSTITUTE. The game should reward successful players, not ones who can play the game more.
Good example of a game that fixed a problem like this:In WoW, 3 years ago, they used to have a nasty grind like this called the "High Warlord/Grand Marshal Grind", just like in Aion, the player who plays the most gains the highest rank and the better rewards.
They fixed this by removing the ranking system and added an honor price to SOME of the best gear. You get honor from doing battlegrounds/world pvp.
To get the REST(MOST) of the gear, you must do it through being successful in Arena. No, it isn't about gaining ranks or grinding Arena Points, it is all about competing directly with other teams and every time you won a game, you gained Arena rating and everytime you lost a game, you lost Arena rating. The raitings scale depending what rating your enemy's. Gear/Weps have a Rating requirement and you gain Arena points to buy them at the end of the week. This way good players can play WoW Arena for only 1-2hours a week if they wanted to, as long as they were successful, they could gain the best rewards(which only a SMALL % have.). Good players got the best gear/weps, bad players with no life can't endlessly play to get the best rewards.
-Guardian transformations. Is this real or a Joke?
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Don't believe me?
Video: http://www.inven.co.kr/board/powerbbs.php?come_idx=1587&query=view&l=380 soloing countless people.
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Abyss ranking system is flawed enough to give the best rewards to players who have no life. Allowing these players to turn into MEGATRON and soloing countless players effortlessly? What were the Aion devs thinking!?
Have no life? Aion is your dream game because it will reward you by allowing you to destroy EVERYONE in game.
They need to make this more of some kind of group effort of some kind where randomly a few players can gain this transformation from each faction by completing some sort of big objective, SOMETHING to allow players that actually have a life to be able to transform if they are going to have this in the game. Am I saying to just be easy mode and give to whoever to make everyone happy? No, you can make it actually based on player SKILL, not how long they play the game.
Good example of a game that fixed a problem like this: No game has had something as messed up as this,that I know of, ESPECIALLY in a reward system that rewards players for having no life.
I repeat,
NOTE:If you can provide any accurate/factual information pertaining to this thread OR BETTER Aion Videos, I WILL change my main post with them as long as they are RELEVANT.
Comments
Remember that if you don't make the effort of reading fully or watching a little of each video example, I won't make the effort of typing a response towards you
Obviously from all of your comparisons WoW is the perfect PvP game for you and Aion is just not to your taste. I honestly do not mind the RNG because I'm a avid D&D player and a lot of time the outcome of a fight can be decided by dumb luck and no skill. Of course that is in a turn based environment but I'm rather used to my RPG's being random in that sense.
Stat stacking in many RPG's is usually the way you can lessen the chance of random occurances hindering you.
Now I'm not telling you to GTFO or anything, but Aion just isn't your cup of tea so stick with WoW. I only assume you are playing WoW because you are referencing the hell out of it in this post.
At least one thing you have definitely proven is that Aion isn't a WoW clone in terms of hit mechanics.
Oh and I did read the whole thing I just have no comments at all for the Guardian transformation at the moment
I'll play it more when it releases out here and find out if I like it or hate it for myself.
I kind of think you're putting too much emphasis on 1v1, where as Aion seems to be much more about larger fights. In that case a lot of skill comes from dealing with a bit of RNG. For one it kind of conflicts with your second point about fights all being the same, because the very definition of RNG means that there are going to be some "random" things happening in fights that players will have to react to.
Unlike WoW Aion isn't build with something like small scale arena in mind. Obviously in WoW it makes much more sense to get rid of RNG, but part of the problem of that is it also starts to make fights more of math calculations then skill. If you know what is going to happen all the time it is much easier to think of a chain of events to use. Case in point players in WoW are very calculated in the arena, it is easy to get a very strong idea of what a player will do based on their class and spec choice (usually you can tell that by what gear they use). I know what a mutilate rogue is going to do, I know the rotation that a ret paladin is going to do, and I know the various things a disc priest are going to do.
Why you want to spoil this game for me? This crap happens on every forum. Some asshat come and start posting walls of text how game x suck and will fail. Aionsource wasn't enough? You must spread your cancer everywhere?
I read your post but didn watch a video at all still.. , im kinda not into PVP as well .. but your post makes sense to me ... if i would make a pvp game i would change about the same things as well cause it otherwise wouldn make much fun to me. If it isnt possible to include a reasonable ammount of player skill involved it doesnt make sense to me as well ..it kinda has to exclude ping times to a certain degree but i want a individuals skill in a fight.
I prolly will never even bother with Aion (heck maybe i gonna test it) just cause i think that no Asia game will please my taste ever .. just another mentality over there
. Asia games have nice graphics super cool looking moves nice animations but lack depth to me or a reason to play it online. But you could say the same of most of the new Games out there.
Only thing I have a problem is consumables, I think thats utterly ridiculous to have in a pvp situation. The group racing around full of buffed up pieces of paper has an unfair advantage, sure I can go get the same pieces of paper but it starts to make u feel like you need it (if everyone else is doing it). You dont wanna have to even think about that when u wanna jump on for 30 mins to kill some of the other faction.
But I guess, MMO's are always gunna reward the people that play more. Whatever gets u more/longer subs i spose
He's known at Aionsource as an Aion hater and nb1 WoW fanboi, so it was no surprise it didn't work out over there. Over here it might work a bit more. Gota love trolls, they get rebutted a hundred times over and still find the energy to post the same EXACT stuff.
Good luck in your next forums, OP.
Nobody gave damn about it on Aionsource and no one cares on MMORPG.COM.
You need to try hard dude.
Was actually giving your post the time of day until you mentioned WoW as the holy grail about 3 times, then I just quit.
And just for fun, WoW sucks and you can't prove me wrong.
All RPG games work with RNG, WoW included.
PvE ers are buffed to max in each raid, why not in PvP?
I dont see why long cooldown in a game is game breaking.
i cant call group in Basic hide mode, which a ranger can easely detect is overpowered or broken, not to mention that the group hiding cant move or anything.
So JFladen with 6 posts made before, guess we will not be seeing you in Aion when it goes live then? Since they game is in beta atm. Good Luck!
To be honets i see where the OP is coming from, i have never really played WoW but i have played DAoC for years and years and this is the game most people are comparing the PvP to. In DAoC it will tell you how long you till stun another for and that will not change 90% of the time. Take for example Shadowblades/Infils/Night Shades on DAoC they rely on their stuns such as stunning stab etc and it will last for x amount of seconds. With a game that has a stun range of slow down range of 4-16 seconds it can ruin your chance of survival.
IMO the game should have set stuns that land every time you use that move, RNG is to well random to be used by proper players who will rely on all those types of cc to get he edge in a fight, it will severely reduce player skill and down to pure luck.
Currently playing : Darkfall
Character name : Aeola Anara
Played: Almost every P2P MMO you can get your hands on, notably:
Daoc, SWG, LOTRO, WAR, AoC + Dozens more
I usually play games for PVP. Back in the day I used to play a lot RTS like Age of Empires 2 and Starcraft. These days I get my adrenaline rushes from games such as EVE.
All that said, I have played WoW quite a bit. In WoW, I do not like PvP at all. Why? Because most of it is desinged to be pointless zergs with loot rewards at the end whether you win or lose. There is no downside. You lose nothing, only gain. Only somewhat competitive thing in WoW is the Arenas, but since most of my friends prefer PvE, I did not play Arenas as much as I wanted to. Even with arenas, you really do not have to win that much and getting a reasonable rating is not hard unless you seriously lack something in your brain department. Every other aspect of PvP in WoW is badly designed. Originally I did enjoy AVs. When you could join as a group, and they took few hours to win. It was all about strategy with each classes given specific role...until they changed it to a mindless zerg. Truly amazing 40v40 battles ensued in those days. Gone now.
I think OP is simply too focused on 1v1 aspect of PvP in Aion when it is clear that some classes in this game have clear advantage in 1v1. It is ment to played at small group or raid level. The best rewards come from that type of PvP, like access to powerful PvE bosses that drop nice loot or give bonuses to your legion. WoW unfortunately does not understand class roles, they used to have them, but due to constant whining they decided that every class should versatile when it comes to PvE or PvP.
Also about consumables, most of them are available for everyone in the game. They give a tactical advantage or often give away out from a battle instead of dying. In this game you actually have to think before using them a lot more than in your casual-friendly-no-consumables-needed-wow. You just have to wrap your mind around the idea that they are one aspect of the game that needs to be considered.
I do not know how much fun Aion PvP will be, but I am willing to give it a shot and hope it is nothing like in WoW. If it ends up being a bore, then I just look for some other game.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Cool story bro...
Someone talking about WoW PvP? Dont talk me anything about wow pvp man, i just dont want to do a pvp who can kill each other less than 3sec in stun. Like paladins... PvP was good in wow before Wotlk but anymore, i cant see any skill, experience required in wow pvp anymore, this is just bullshit you talking about WoW pvp.
By the way i didnt play Aion beta yet but i just know WoW dont have PvP system required skill or anything.Looking forward to play Aion when released in Europe and I believe it doesnt have worse pvp system than WoW
That was a lot of yammering, you don't like the mechanics. Every game has them is some way, nothing is ever going to suit your taste if you get nit-picky. Just play it and don't worry about that crap like random dice rolls, you can't do anything about it but move on if you don't like it. You sound like those SWG nut-jobs who are still dissecting the game 4 years after the change.
Do you know why Aion isn't going to do very well in the long haul?
It's the same basic game as everything else that has launched in the last decade. I've played it to level 10 (that was the cap at the time) I could probably log on this weekend if I had the will to grind but it's a souped up Lineage 2. I speak that fairly as an ex-L2 player and fanboi (I've played several classes to the level 60 range and I have an outdated "how to make adena" guide on this site and wrote a few articles on IGN a few years back). To me the game, right down to the menues is an improved L2.
It looks great, it runs fantastic but I've been there done that, have the t-shirt. I might be wrong but based on what I've seen, I'm fairly confident that I'm not.
At least it will run at launch which more then I can say for most western made game that has launched in the last 5 years. That that will be a refreshing change. (dunno if the US market to handle a game that works at launch, what will we scream about???)
I'll probably play it at launch because I'm getting a free copy and that means a free 30 days. Other then that, ho- hum.
well he has some good points. 1v1 should not be based on luck. it should be based on PURE skill. he has some good evidence favoring him. personally i do not like random timers and abilities and whatnot. i like to know exactly with what i can work with. praying to land a hit is not one of those things. wow is far from perfect game but atleast his developers fix stuff. sure aion is a new game and there is still plenty of time to fix those things but the sooner the better.
Seems like a guy with a point wanting to discuss game's mechanics. Now, some of the replies were an interesting read, sure, but I don't get this "troll,wow fanboi, canser" part.
You can only use one at a time. And yeah jflanden, you're on a crusade.
You can only use one at a time. And yeah jflanden, you're on a crusade.
You can only use one 5minute scroll at a time? Then that means it''s worse because you will have to be sawpping between 5minute scrolls constantly.
WoW isn't the holy grail, it''s just the game I am most familiar with and already has dealt with many of the issues that Aion has at the moment so I am using WoW as an example. Most people have played WoW, so using examples from that game will help people better understand the issues plaguing Aion.
i roflmao...
anyway as much as i want to agree with the thread starter's opinions... i became highly reluctant as soon as he mentioned WoW... a couple of stuff he mentioned, i do agree with but the WoW comparison... instantly labels him as the common WoW fanatic bashing aion... i have nothing againt WoW and Aion... its just 2 different games with a couple of similarities and differences... everytime when someone compares to WoW, its like they saying every god damn game should be like WoW... so like what? we'll just see WoW ish games with different skins?
in any case, Aion is a pretty new game... much like how WoW came up with updates to fix the same issues it had with aion, i believe same goes with aion, hopefully a more creative fix if not a WoW fix to appease the many bashing WoWers...
He's known at Aionsource as an Aion hater and nb1 WoW fanboi, so it was no surprise it didn't work out over there. Over here it might work a bit more. Gota love trolls, they get rebutted a hundred times over and still find the energy to post the same EXACT stuff.
Good luck in your next forums, OP.
Too bad I didn't get rebutted on the AionSource forums, maybe you should copy paste that here.
Thanks, much appreciated, just spreading the word of Aion to those tired of being spoon-fed the same ignorant bias from only one view of Aion.
Any good fight should not be something which you can calculate and know the exact outcome of every move. This leads to a very boring situation where you could create a macro with the built in timers to play for you. For all these actions which have a chance to occur you will have to watch react accordingly; a true measure of skill.
Opinion of skilled play aside, many of these items need to have a random factor because their chance of success will vary based upon buffs on you and your target. If it a stun was guaranteed to hit, then stun resistance would be worthless. If spells were guaranteed to be interrupted then concentration would be worthless. The random factor gives both a chance on equal footing, but will favor someone who has focused on that specific type of action (defensive or offensively).
This does not mean that everything is based on chance. There are some abilities which are designed to work regardless of the defenders resistance, but even they have a few counters to nullify the effects. All this talk of it is not longer skill based don't make a lot of sense, when it takes even more skill to be able to alter your strategy on the fly because of the increased number of variables.
On the point of consumables. From my experience, once you start getting into any PvP you will always want to have a number of items to use during your battle. Heath Potions, Mana Potions, Healing Potions (Remove DeBuffs), Flight Duration Potions, Flight Speed Scrolls and Run Speed Scrolls are all carried and used as part of PvP. They reuse timer on the potions is shared with Health/Mana and all potions have a high enough cool down, most are only used once during a small encounter.
The Healing and Mana Potions are often used during PvE as well for the more difficult encounters or to extend how long you can fight, so they should be on hand anyways.
Never underestimate the gank factor for some folks its a religon.
MAGA