Only thing I have a problem is consumables, I think thats utterly ridiculous to have in a pvp situation. The group racing around full of buffed up pieces of paper has an unfair advantage, sure I can go get the same pieces of paper but it starts to make u feel like you need it (if everyone else is doing it). You dont wanna have to even think about that when u wanna jump on for 30 mins to kill some of the other faction. But I guess, MMO's are always gunna reward the people that play more. Whatever gets u more/longer subs i spose
You can only use one at a time. And yeah jflanden, you're on a crusade.
You can only use one 5minute scroll at a time? Then that means it''s worse because you will have to be sawpping between 5minute scrolls constantly.
I feel you're gonna take anything I say and turn it against Aion. In your first post you complained about people using tons of consumables per battle, now you complain because you swap them every 5 minutes? Which isn't true, throught rifts, you use movement speed, in the abyss, you use flight speed, and if you don't, nothing happens, because this game isn't about 1v1, and movement speed is useless when they focus fire on 1 target at a time. That's about it.
Remember that if you don't make the effort of reading fully or watching a little of each video example, I won't make the effort of typing a response towards you
/chuckle
TLDR
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
How much of Aion's "end game PvP" did you experience? I ask this question because no amount of theorycraft can really justify an argument. All you're doing is speculating by comparing it to WoW. And yes, you are able to see videos and provide some information like the RNG effect. But like you have posted in aionsource, the argument fails when you post a good video of Aion and a bad video of WoW. So why the hypocrisy now? So let's judge a mac against a PC using a mac that came out 10 years ago against a PC that is hot in the market right now. That's basically what you're doing; showcasing the bad of one product and the good of another to make the latter look good. Let's stamp out hypocrisy in comparisons please.
Now I know what you're going to say: I don't need to experience it to know if something is bad or not. If you're going to say this (you've said it on aionsource), then I will have to say no, experience matters. How do you judge "simplicity" if you haven't even played the damn game at endgame? How do you know if something's simple simply by looking at a video with limited knowledge of what's going on? How do you know if RNG is bad or not in the context of the game system? RNG may have been bad in WoW but how do you know for certain that RNG plays a huge role in making PvP bad in Aion? Labeling RNG as being a bad system is purely your own opinion, as proven by some others who have posted here thinking it's better to have RNG to make PvP interesting. Oh, and it's interesting to point out you attacked steb on aionsource for his "judgement" on WoW based on his limited experience in WoW. That's funny, because the last I heard, you haven't even experienced Aion end game PvP yet. Hypocrisy much?
Anyone with a brain would realize you're a WoW fanboy. There's no denying that so please stop denying it to yourself. You have fought with steb on aionsource for a whopping 45 pages. Steb is an Aion fanboy, you're a WoW fanboy. Both of you are fanboys duking it out pointlessly when it's obvious what both of your agendas are.
If you like WoW that much and Aion is a failed game in your eyes, then by all means, BYE. No one is holding you back. No one is telling you "you have to show me why Aion is bad in order to leave the game." You have the right to your opinion, just like everyone else has a right to their opinion. Of course, you have the right to post whatever you want as long as it follows the rules, but I am not telling you this to stop you from posting. I am telling you this so that you don't have to waste any more of your time on a game that you obviously think is bad.
If you truly want to help new people judge the game, then please do it without hypocrisy and bias. There are better reviews out there that people can read in order to pre-judge Aion. We don't need your hypocrisy, bias, and WoW fanboyism in order to judge if Aion is good or bad. So on that note, tata.
A lot of hyperbole being used in the op's post. Do you think perhaps we should experience max level pvp before puting ultimate judgements on the game? The only point that I sort of agree with is that there is too much RNG factor. I much prefer a system like Guild Wars where there is little luck involved, it's all move and counter move. However, it's a different game, different mechanics, different system, I'm not sure how well it would work (for example there are no stuns or fear in GW, mostly snares, interrupts, and knockdowns). Same thing applies with the game you are comparing WoW to. You also have to consider there is no pvp in a box in Aion, at least not yet.
It's obvious that this game isn't breaking any new boundaries, but you should realize it's just a game. If it's fun to certain people, they will play it. If not, then they won't. I doubt anyone will read the post and ponder not playing the game because of the snake arrow radius...etc...
In order for a game to get better, you need to point out/discuss it's flaws and not be blind to them. This will ONLY be about Aion's END-GAME PVP. NOTE:If you can provide any accurate/factual information pertaining to this thread OR BETTER Aion Videos, I WILL change my main post with them as long as they are revelant. I will break this down into 3 categories to make this easy to read
1.RNG(Random Number Generator)
2.Simplicity
3.Broken
Well, I remember a while back, people in Lineage 2 werre wondering why there was such a heavy emphasis on chance. There are chances to break one's gear while enchanting, chances that adding certain stones would fail, there was a lottery and a "monster" race which was also chanced based. There are even in game dice that one can roll.
Chance was all over the game.
Then someone came on the forum who lived in korea and said that koreans (other asians as well?) loved games of chance and gambling.
If this is indeed true then it not only explains the plethora of chance in L2 but also in Aion. Which then means that this is a design choice based after preference.
Which then means that it's not broken, it's how they want it.
so essentially you don't like their preferences. That's ok. But it doesn't mean that they don't like it probably means that there will be more instances of chance based gameplay.
We can already see it in adding the mana stones or enchanting items like L2.
If this is indeed
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Pretty much spot-on on all points you make, original poster...
Still, comparing wow to aion is pointless, because wow, when it stands on its own is also boring (once you reach the "endgame", and understand what it's about, quintessentially), and pvp is in a terrible state, regardless of whether it is better or worse than that of other games; arena is no more than a race to blow things up, bgs are only intended for farming, and world pvp is no more than (in the instance of wintergrasp) a way to farm pvp currency to get more passable gear, to get into a league, to get more passable gear, to ultimately... gain a title, and a mount, and in other types of world pvp, no more than ganking.
All this really amounts to and says about mmorpgs and their communities is that the games they play do not advance quickly enough to satiate their puerile impetus for constant progression and mindless violence and what they really desire is something which they can keep taking from, and complaining about, while having no explicit stake in or connection to... the capitalist mentality really! And, as seen on forums such as these, constant begging and searching for something that will.
The funny thing is that, as far as i can discern, what people did enjoy about their play time, was the journey to reach some vague goal, before becoming disillusioned with it, once having done so. They acquire a lot of precious little memories, of small comedy and jovial comraderie, but, become nostalgic for something which they don't quite understand, and thus chase after things in a similar environment, hoping that that will -tick their gigglebit- in the same way.
The thing is, once you've understood a game, any game, thouroughly, it's no longer much fun, unless you have people to play it with, who are also fun to be around. That's something technology oriented people just never seem to able to grasp, that you can play mario kart, and not worry about the graphics, because it will still be fun, if you play it at a party, as the dynamics of games laregely stay the same anyway (and each time the dynamics shift slightly it's a "REVOLUSHUN"). In summary, it is not really the search for a new product, but a passtime, with friends, an outlet, and an environment in which to test things, taken to the extreme, a private hell, one willfully confines oneself to.
So, those few should be so lucky, who, with a bad memory, can carry the rock up the hill like sisyphus, throughout eternity, and enjoy it, may well find mmorpgs to be their cup of tea. For the rest, who can make even a little use of their intellect, it will reveal itself to be a hollow search after the powerful illusion of progress, which, when it comes down to it, is no more than the representation of power to smite (or help smite by other means) scripted "enemies" and other "enemy-players" in a private universe and attain, teh phat l3wts... ...enemies who are simply fulfilling their objectives, in very linear way (be it code for the "npcs" or very similar objectives to those of yours, on the "other side" of the player base). And by means of "art" and mathematical statistics this progress is ubiquitous, all orchestrated/ constructed to set the player on an eternal mission, of which any part in itself is simple enough to accomplish, but designed to never be accomplished in its entirety. There is no point to it, and people pay money for this illusion, and even more money to be "good" at it, and even more to have "money in it", a variant in some arbitrary line of code, which happens to be "money", and before you say, there is little point to doing this in the "real world", there is infinitely more point to doing it, because in the virtual world, you are dealing with representations of objects, instead of actual objects (magic money, magic food, magic magic).
All in all it's as when a person analyzes a joke, picks it apart, tells you why it's not funny, and doesn't realize, after all, the joke is on them, for not being able to understand it, because their blind pedantry and over-analysis obscure it to them.
And what are the alternatives to these people? Single-player games are too short, and real life is boring and too hard for most of the carebears that play it, because they simply refuse to take some role in it and put any real effort into it, thus they are given roles to fulfill, and whinge about, because they cannot imagine their own.
If anyone were truly searching for a game in which skill and tactical prowess were measured, chess would surely jump right out at them. And if they wanted to be stimulated in audio-visual ways, what's wrong with film? At least it is about something. It's this accursed middle ground, between thinking and watching, which is neither in the end that is, what we call, a computer game.
...People are forever waiting for things to happen to them, instead of actually making things happen...
How about, you, who have read and understood this, become someone who actually makes something happen, eh?
That is a lot of effort in point out that this game showed be a WOW clone. Not that it is a bad thing if thats what you want . But if they made the changes that you said need to be made I would stop playing Aion just like I stopped playing WOW. I stll believe WOW is the simplist MMORPG that I every played and a good percentage of our ( I need instant gratification) society likes that. but one WOW is more than enough
In order for a game to get better, you need to point out/discuss it's flaws and not be blind to them. This will ONLY be about Aion's END-GAME PVP. NOTE:If you can provide any accurate/factual information pertaining to this thread OR BETTER Aion Videos, I WILL change my main post with them as long as they are revelant. I will break this down into 3 categories to make this easy to read
1.RNG(Random Number Generator)
2.Simplicity
3.Broken
Well, I remember a while back, people in Lineage 2 werre wondering why there was such a heavy emphasis on chance. There are chances to break one's gear while enchanting, chances that adding certain stones would fail, there was a lottery and a "monster" race which was also chanced based. There are even in game dice that one can roll.
Chance was all over the game.
Then someone came on the forum who lived in korea and said that koreans (other asians as well?) loved games of chance and gambling.
If this is indeed true then it not only explains the plethora of chance in L2 but also in Aion. Which then means that this is a design choice based after preference.
Which then means that it's not broken, it's how they want it.
so essentially you don't like their preferences. That's ok. But it doesn't mean that they don't like it probably means that there will be more instances of chance based gameplay.
We can already see it in adding the mana stones or enchanting items like L2.
If this is indeed
Not only the koreans like chance, we do too. We just have more ways of expressing it and don't rely on MMORPG's to fullfill that need. Poker anyone, all based on chance and probability, thinking you have the best hand but never sure. Same applies in Aion, chance does take skill too! You need to go into the fight with the probability you will win. Over time, the probability is you will get stronger.
If they made this game so you could accomplish everything in PvP in a month then this game wouldn't last very long would it? Playing more should mean more benefits, it's your reward for spending more time in game. It's a step up from Lineage 2 where you could practically buy a 80+ toon, boss jewels and an enchanted set of armor and weapons if money isn't an issue. True there are still items in Aion worth $500+ but again it's better than L2 was.
This guy puts a lot of efforts, he works for Blizzard Entertainment
Maybe but i dont see Blizz needing any help. Aion will take subs from WOW for sure. It will take subs from WAR, LOTRO and many other games as well. The question is how many will return to WOW, WAR and LOTRO after the honeymoon and Aion becomes just another pretty face. I remember a friend telling me when AOC launched his WOW guild was destroyed because of people leaving. Well a month or three later and his guild was back. Im sure Blizz is watching to see how this or that implementation is accepted by fans but i truly doubt that they are paying for folks to come to the boards and talk trash about Aion.
you know why RNG is great? because you have to think on your feet. this is how I PvP on my rogue in WoW.
(clothie) Ambush, mutilate, evisc. restealth and find a new clothie to kill
(non clothie) Cheapshot, Mutilate, KS, Mutilate, mutilate, gouge, Evisc. restealth and find a clothie so my next kill only takes 4.5 seconds.
and WoW still has plenty of RNG reliant classes. ask any moonkin who raids and their entire rotation is built around RNG.
I'll take Aions chance to stun skills over stunlocking Rogues/pallys, because I have fun in Aion, and I'm having problems just getting myself to log into WoW. I disagree with pretty much all your points because the things you list don't need to be fixed, they are fine, fun. Aion's combat isn't any more simple than other MMOs i've played. hell, Planetside had some of the most simple combat i've ever seen and it was still incredibly fun, simple isn't bad. If simple was bad, WoW would be dead, but its not, he has shown that simple is a success. and nothing in Aion is terribly broken. the long cooldown you pointed to as 1shotting people deals 1.8k damage, not going to 1shot anyone. and the transformations really make the game exciting, but maybe thats because I enjoy teamwork, and seeing the PvP version of a raid boss looks like a challange to me, not a problem.
your post reeks of "wow is great" and simply points out things that Aion does differently, not wrong.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
Remember that if you don't make the effort of reading fully or watching a little of each video example, I won't make the effort of typing a response towards you
/chuckle
TLDR
Agreed. If you have to use video's to make your point its a fail in my book regardless.
I read some of it... dismissed the rest as whining, I'll give it a go and see for myself.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Only thing I have a problem is consumables, I think thats utterly ridiculous to have in a pvp situation. The group racing around full of buffed up pieces of paper has an unfair advantage, sure I can go get the same pieces of paper but it starts to make u feel like you need it (if everyone else is doing it). You dont wanna have to even think about that when u wanna jump on for 30 mins to kill some of the other faction. But I guess, MMO's are always gunna reward the people that play more. Whatever gets u more/longer subs i spose
You can only use one at a time. And yeah jflanden, you're on a crusade.
You can only use one 5minute scroll at a time? Then that means it''s worse because you will have to be sawpping between 5minute scrolls constantly.
I feel you're gonna take anything I say and turn it against Aion. In your first post you complained about people using tons of consumables per battle, now you complain because you swap them every 5 minutes? Which isn't true, throught rifts, you use movement speed, in the abyss, you use flight speed, and if you don't, nothing happens, because this game isn't about 1v1, and movement speed is useless when they focus fire on 1 target at a time. That's about it.
The complaint never changed, there are too many MANDATORY consumables to stock up on. How is it fun to keep swapping between 5minute scrolls everytime you are on ground, attacking someone, or flying? Just having to refresh a scroll every 5minutes is ridiculous. That isn't counting having to carry around a lot of CC removing potions.
You can think they aren't mandatory but they are for anyone who wants to be competitive at all. 20% speed increase/6% attack speed(speeds up combos)/CC removing is very overpowered that everyone will need to farm before enjoying PvP. Stat boosters like food/drink are okay, but the scrolls/CC-removing potion need to be fixed/nerfed/removed.
Originally posted by templarga I love how someone makes a huge, long, thought-out post and all the fanbois come along and take one or two comments out of it and use those comments to attack the poster and their credibility....all the while ignoring all of the relevant information provided. I am sorry but this reminds me of the Age of Conan forums. Someone posts information with valid points criticizing the game and the fans ignore it and just make rude, insulting comments against the poster and ignore what was said. I don't agree or disagree with the OP simple because its pointless to at this point but I think its just sad that people rather insult the poster than try and refute his points. The community really needs to wake up and realize that many (not all) are becoming a major distraction for this game and is quickly becoming its biggest issue and will cause many not to play. Some people ask for basic information and the replies and comments are usually insults against the person asking the question than anyone trying to provide helpful info. Not everyone who hates Aion plays WOW, not everyone who hates Aion likes WOW, and for many of us who did play DAOC, Aion is FAR AND AWAY anything like DAOC. Its an insult to DAOC to even compare the two in my opinion.
But if we disagree with the OP we're clearly fanboys, right? That's what you're getting to I'm sure.
Yes, there were a few fanboys here who just dismissed the OP as a troll. The rest of us gave our reasons why we think he is wrong. I don't see how hard that is to really believe after all, but obviously if you are in favor of a game you're a fanboy, and if you dislike a game you're a hater.
I love how someone makes a huge, long, thought-out post and all the fanbois come along and take one or two comments out of it and use those comments to attack the poster and their credibility....all the while ignoring all of the relevant information provided.
I am sorry but this reminds me of the Age of Conan forums. Someone posts information with valid points criticizing the game and the fans ignore it and just make rude, insulting comments against the poster and ignore what was said.
I don't agree or disagree with the OP simple because its pointless to at this point but I think its just sad that people rather insult the poster than try and refute his points.
The community really needs to wake up and realize that many (not all) are becoming a major distraction for this game and is quickly becoming its biggest issue and will cause many not to play. Some people ask for basic information and the replies and comments are usually insults against the person asking the question than anyone trying to provide helpful info.
Not everyone who hates Aion plays WOW, not everyone who hates Aion likes WOW, and for many of us who did play DAOC, Aion is FAR AND AWAY anything like DAOC. Its an insult to DAOC to even compare the two in my opinion.
But if we disagree with the OP we're clearly fanboys, right? That's what you're getting to I'm sure.
Yes, there were a few fanboys here who just dismissed the OP as a troll. The rest of us gave our reasons why we think he is wrong. I don't see how hard that is to really believe after all, but obviously if you are in favor of a game you're a fanboy, and if you dislike a game you're a hater.
I'll play it more when it releases out here and find out if I like it or hate it for myself.
exactly. If I think I might like a game, no review, or player rant will change my mind. I buy it and decide on my own. L2 got horrible reviews and lots of hate from the gaming community. It is one of my fav MMOs of all time and I just resubbed after a long break.
I kind of think you're putting too much emphasis on 1v1, where as Aion seems to be much more about larger fights. In that case a lot of skill comes from dealing with a bit of RNG. For one it kind of conflicts with your second point about fights all being the same, because the very definition of RNG means that there are going to be some "random" things happening in fights that players will have to react to. Unlike WoW Aion isn't build with something like small scale arena in mind. Obviously in WoW it makes much more sense to get rid of RNG, but part of the problem of that is it also starts to make fights more of math calculations then skill. If you know what is going to happen all the time it is much easier to think of a chain of events to use. Case in point players in WoW are very calculated in the arena, it is easy to get a very strong idea of what a player will do based on their class and spec choice (usually you can tell that by what gear they use). I know what a mutilate rogue is going to do, I know the rotation that a ret paladin is going to do, and I know the various things a disc priest are going to do.
The fights themselves aren't the same, the strategy and ability rotation is the same with RNG deciding the winner. Assassin vs Assassin video is perfect for showing this because it is mirrored matches, everyone uses the same skill rotation and who ever is the luckiest wins. Watch the first fight in the video, he lands every ability and kills him within less than 5seconds because of RNG.
Alright, I think I'll probably be one of the only people agreeing with you to some extent.
However, WoW is still at it's core RNG: Kidney shot can be dodge/parried (unless combat spec, which most arena rogues aren't), critical hits often determine outcomes i.e. frostrike and they are entirely RNG dependent with resilience making crit nothing close to 90%, spells can be resisted and most importantly in the videos you had shown stealth detection is also random.
The problem with your information is that you DON'T have the rates: If the assassin stun has a 90% chance of landing, then that isn't so bad as say 60%; most of the time you will land the stun. It's also important to point out that NOTHING is truly RANDOM : They use deterministic functions. Blizzard's random function is dependent on server parameters (not clientside, since that could be manipulated easily) , which is why it's not uncommon to see large strings of crits/misses/parries over short intervals.
I have to agree that Aion's combat does seem a bit simplistic: There are few CC's spread among the classes, few interrupts and really not much else going on other than combo sequences sans the complex hit detection you'd find in AoC (although AoC's combat has been butchered beyond repair.. ). Spirit masters are the analogues of warlocks, assassins rogues etc. and none of them really have the same breadth of skills that they do in WoW. If you don't believe me, then go google aion skills and read them from aion-welten, the German site, or on Aion source with English translation.
That having been said, I have preordered aion and will base my decision of purchase on the upcoming beta weekend. Even if the skills and PvP lack the depth that WoW has, there will most likely be improvement as the game is still young. I think most people share the same sentiment, since any game after 5 years or so will start to bore you out of your mind.
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
The fights themselves aren't the same, the strategy and ability rotation is the same with RNG deciding the winner. Assassin vs Assassin video is perfect for showing this because it is mirrored matches, everyone uses the same skill rotation and who ever is the luckiest wins. Watch the first fight in the video, he lands every ability and kills him within less than 5seconds because of RNG.
I can go find a number of videos with people doing the exact same things against each other in WoW right now. Hell, I remember when I played my duals as an Arms warrior against another one would often be a mirror match for a while.
Originally posted by //\//\oo Alright, I think I'll probably be one of the only people agreeing with you to some extent. However, WoW is still at it's core RNG: Kidney shot can be dodge/parried (unless combat spec, which most arena rogues aren't), critical hits often determine outcomes i.e. frostrike and they are entirely RNG dependent with resilience making crit nothing close to 90%, spells can be resisted and most importantly in the videos you had shown stealth detection is also random. The problem with your information is that you DON'T have the rates: If the assassin stun has a 90% chance of landing, then that isn't so bad as say 60%; most of the time you will land the stun. It's also important to point out that NOTHING is truly RANDOM : They use deterministic functions. Blizzard's random function is dependent on server parameters (not clientside, since that could be manipulated easily) , which is why it's not uncommon to see large strings of crits/misses/parries over short intervals. I have to agree that Aion's combat does seem a bit simplistic: There are few CC's spread among the classes, few interrupts and really not much else going on other than combo sequences sans the complex hit detection you'd find in AoC (although AoC's combat has been butchered beyond repair.. ). Spirit masters are the analogues of warlocks, assassins rogues etc. and none of them really have the same breadth of skills that they do in WoW. If you don't believe me, then go google aion skills and read them from aion-welten, the German site, or on Aion source with English translation. That having been said, I have preordered aion and will base my decision of purchase on the upcoming beta weekend. Even if the skills and PvP lack the depth that WoW has, there will most likely be improvement as the game is still young. I think most people share the same sentiment, since any game after 5 years or so will start to bore you out of your mind.
I do think that stigma stones are going to help. I took it upon myself to look at some of the various skills and such some of the classes had, and it seems like each class has a number of combos which then can also go into two different directions. (I.E the starter move has 2 possible chains).
As far as the RNG comes into play it looks like a lot of classes have ways to kind of take advantage of that. Some classes have combos that start when an enemy is knocked down, for example.
Either way you are certainly right about RNG still being in WoW very much. I've seen matches won where the player got a string of lucky crits, and that certainly is all about the RNG. I'm not sure how RNG will really work with Aion, especially considering that Korean random is never really random =P (Memories from L2 here), but I don't think it's as big of an issue as the OP makes it out to be.
I do think that if you're going to pay attention a lot to 1v1 encounters you might be a little disappointed with RNG from some classes. The skill does seem to come from how you deal with the RNG as a group, as a good group will be able to use defensive buffs and such during times where RNG is against them and they will know when to go after that kill when RNG hits good.
If Aion was going for an Arena, "e-sport", model like WoW than I would agree that RNG would want to be delt with. For a large scale game like it is though I don't really see it as a problem, even though I will say that I haven't had the chance to play a lot in regards to PvP. Still Lineage II had a lot of RNG in PvP, especially with lethal shots, abilities with low land rates and such and it is my favorite PvP MMO, and I also think it is (or at least was, idk) a quite balanced MMO.
I love how someone makes a huge, long, thought-out post and all the fanbois come along and take one or two comments out of it and use those comments to attack the poster and their credibility....all the while ignoring all of the relevant information provided. I am sorry but this reminds me of the Age of Conan forums. Someone posts information with valid points criticizing the game and the fans ignore it and just make rude, insulting comments against the poster and ignore what was said. I don't agree or disagree with the OP simple because its pointless to at this point but I think its just sad that people rather insult the poster than try and refute his points. The community really needs to wake up and realize that many (not all) are becoming a major distraction for this game and is quickly becoming its biggest issue and will cause many not to play. Some people ask for basic information and the replies and comments are usually insults against the person asking the question than anyone trying to provide helpful info. Not everyone who hates Aion plays WOW, not everyone who hates Aion likes WOW, and for many of us who did play DAOC, Aion is FAR AND AWAY anything like DAOC. Its an insult to DAOC to even compare the two in my opinion.
This is nice and all, but I don't think it occured to you that his posting history and reputation on another forum precedes him.
He's someone who is a known hater/basher/troll call him what you will, and always brings up WoW and how Aion should be "WoWified" even more. This OP is not credible at all. You have no idea.
When someone makes a huge and detailed post like that, it doesn't mean that he's seriously considering improving the game. There are multiple possibilities. Some of them are:
He might have no life and likes to bash the game, so he makes a detailed post so that people such as yourself believe him and rally around him.
He's being payed to write this stuff.
He scoured the internet and found such a post, changed some stuff and BAM, posted it.
He's serious and wants to improve Aion through such a dedicated and detailed thread.
There are other possibilities as well, however let's stop here. You think it's the 4th possibility? wrong, which you thought was right.
A lot of people have accounts on Aionsource, so it's really no surprise at all when they all discarded him, even though at first sight, it does look like he has some valid points.
"Not everyone who hates Aion plays WOW, not everyone who hates Aion likes WOW, and for many of us who did play DAOC, Aion is FAR AND AWAY anything like DAOC. Its an insult to DAOC to even compare the two in my opinion."
Your opinion is your own, however I doubt you even played a character to level25+. It's well known that the first 20levels are all PvE (which I hate and seriously think it's a bad design decision), so there is no way you could have seen any form of PvP whatsoever, thus you're just having a dig at other "Fanbois". It's kinda sad, but there are a lot of such sentences so it doesn't really stand out in these forums.
Comments
You can only use one at a time. And yeah jflanden, you're on a crusade.
You can only use one 5minute scroll at a time? Then that means it''s worse because you will have to be sawpping between 5minute scrolls constantly.
I feel you're gonna take anything I say and turn it against Aion. In your first post you complained about people using tons of consumables per battle, now you complain because you swap them every 5 minutes? Which isn't true, throught rifts, you use movement speed, in the abyss, you use flight speed, and if you don't, nothing happens, because this game isn't about 1v1, and movement speed is useless when they focus fire on 1 target at a time. That's about it.
/chuckle
TLDR
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I think "teh internets" brought us to many wannabe analytics.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
Just don't play it then. Bye bye...
How much of Aion's "end game PvP" did you experience? I ask this question because no amount of theorycraft can really justify an argument. All you're doing is speculating by comparing it to WoW. And yes, you are able to see videos and provide some information like the RNG effect. But like you have posted in aionsource, the argument fails when you post a good video of Aion and a bad video of WoW. So why the hypocrisy now? So let's judge a mac against a PC using a mac that came out 10 years ago against a PC that is hot in the market right now. That's basically what you're doing; showcasing the bad of one product and the good of another to make the latter look good. Let's stamp out hypocrisy in comparisons please.
Now I know what you're going to say: I don't need to experience it to know if something is bad or not. If you're going to say this (you've said it on aionsource), then I will have to say no, experience matters. How do you judge "simplicity" if you haven't even played the damn game at endgame? How do you know if something's simple simply by looking at a video with limited knowledge of what's going on? How do you know if RNG is bad or not in the context of the game system? RNG may have been bad in WoW but how do you know for certain that RNG plays a huge role in making PvP bad in Aion? Labeling RNG as being a bad system is purely your own opinion, as proven by some others who have posted here thinking it's better to have RNG to make PvP interesting. Oh, and it's interesting to point out you attacked steb on aionsource for his "judgement" on WoW based on his limited experience in WoW. That's funny, because the last I heard, you haven't even experienced Aion end game PvP yet. Hypocrisy much?
Anyone with a brain would realize you're a WoW fanboy. There's no denying that so please stop denying it to yourself. You have fought with steb on aionsource for a whopping 45 pages. Steb is an Aion fanboy, you're a WoW fanboy. Both of you are fanboys duking it out pointlessly when it's obvious what both of your agendas are.
If you like WoW that much and Aion is a failed game in your eyes, then by all means, BYE. No one is holding you back. No one is telling you "you have to show me why Aion is bad in order to leave the game." You have the right to your opinion, just like everyone else has a right to their opinion. Of course, you have the right to post whatever you want as long as it follows the rules, but I am not telling you this to stop you from posting. I am telling you this so that you don't have to waste any more of your time on a game that you obviously think is bad.
If you truly want to help new people judge the game, then please do it without hypocrisy and bias. There are better reviews out there that people can read in order to pre-judge Aion. We don't need your hypocrisy, bias, and WoW fanboyism in order to judge if Aion is good or bad. So on that note, tata.
A lot of hyperbole being used in the op's post. Do you think perhaps we should experience max level pvp before puting ultimate judgements on the game? The only point that I sort of agree with is that there is too much RNG factor. I much prefer a system like Guild Wars where there is little luck involved, it's all move and counter move. However, it's a different game, different mechanics, different system, I'm not sure how well it would work (for example there are no stuns or fear in GW, mostly snares, interrupts, and knockdowns). Same thing applies with the game you are comparing WoW to. You also have to consider there is no pvp in a box in Aion, at least not yet.
It's obvious that this game isn't breaking any new boundaries, but you should realize it's just a game. If it's fun to certain people, they will play it. If not, then they won't. I doubt anyone will read the post and ponder not playing the game because of the snake arrow radius...etc...
Just a thought.
Well, I remember a while back, people in Lineage 2 werre wondering why there was such a heavy emphasis on chance. There are chances to break one's gear while enchanting, chances that adding certain stones would fail, there was a lottery and a "monster" race which was also chanced based. There are even in game dice that one can roll.
Chance was all over the game.
Then someone came on the forum who lived in korea and said that koreans (other asians as well?) loved games of chance and gambling.
If this is indeed true then it not only explains the plethora of chance in L2 but also in Aion. Which then means that this is a design choice based after preference.
Which then means that it's not broken, it's how they want it.
so essentially you don't like their preferences. That's ok. But it doesn't mean that they don't like it probably means that there will be more instances of chance based gameplay.
We can already see it in adding the mana stones or enchanting items like L2.
If this is indeed
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Pretty much spot-on on all points you make, original poster...
Still, comparing wow to aion is pointless, because wow, when it stands on its own is also boring (once you reach the "endgame", and understand what it's about, quintessentially), and pvp is in a terrible state, regardless of whether it is better or worse than that of other games; arena is no more than a race to blow things up, bgs are only intended for farming, and world pvp is no more than (in the instance of wintergrasp) a way to farm pvp currency to get more passable gear, to get into a league, to get more passable gear, to ultimately... gain a title, and a mount, and in other types of world pvp, no more than ganking.
All this really amounts to and says about mmorpgs and their communities is that the games they play do not advance quickly enough to satiate their puerile impetus for constant progression and mindless violence and what they really desire is something which they can keep taking from, and complaining about, while having no explicit stake in or connection to... the capitalist mentality really! And, as seen on forums such as these, constant begging and searching for something that will.
The funny thing is that, as far as i can discern, what people did enjoy about their play time, was the journey to reach some vague goal, before becoming disillusioned with it, once having done so. They acquire a lot of precious little memories, of small comedy and jovial comraderie, but, become nostalgic for something which they don't quite understand, and thus chase after things in a similar environment, hoping that that will -tick their gigglebit- in the same way.
The thing is, once you've understood a game, any game, thouroughly, it's no longer much fun, unless you have people to play it with, who are also fun to be around. That's something technology oriented people just never seem to able to grasp, that you can play mario kart, and not worry about the graphics, because it will still be fun, if you play it at a party, as the dynamics of games laregely stay the same anyway (and each time the dynamics shift slightly it's a "REVOLUSHUN"). In summary, it is not really the search for a new product, but a passtime, with friends, an outlet, and an environment in which to test things, taken to the extreme, a private hell, one willfully confines oneself to.
So, those few should be so lucky, who, with a bad memory, can carry the rock up the hill like sisyphus, throughout eternity, and enjoy it, may well find mmorpgs to be their cup of tea. For the rest, who can make even a little use of their intellect, it will reveal itself to be a hollow search after the powerful illusion of progress, which, when it comes down to it, is no more than the representation of power to smite (or help smite by other means) scripted "enemies" and other "enemy-players" in a private universe and attain, teh phat l3wts... ...enemies who are simply fulfilling their objectives, in very linear way (be it code for the "npcs" or very similar objectives to those of yours, on the "other side" of the player base). And by means of "art" and mathematical statistics this progress is ubiquitous, all orchestrated/ constructed to set the player on an eternal mission, of which any part in itself is simple enough to accomplish, but designed to never be accomplished in its entirety. There is no point to it, and people pay money for this illusion, and even more money to be "good" at it, and even more to have "money in it", a variant in some arbitrary line of code, which happens to be "money", and before you say, there is little point to doing this in the "real world", there is infinitely more point to doing it, because in the virtual world, you are dealing with representations of objects, instead of actual objects (magic money, magic food, magic magic).
All in all it's as when a person analyzes a joke, picks it apart, tells you why it's not funny, and doesn't realize, after all, the joke is on them, for not being able to understand it, because their blind pedantry and over-analysis obscure it to them.
And what are the alternatives to these people? Single-player games are too short, and real life is boring and too hard for most of the carebears that play it, because they simply refuse to take some role in it and put any real effort into it, thus they are given roles to fulfill, and whinge about, because they cannot imagine their own.
If anyone were truly searching for a game in which skill and tactical prowess were measured, chess would surely jump right out at them. And if they wanted to be stimulated in audio-visual ways, what's wrong with film? At least it is about something. It's this accursed middle ground, between thinking and watching, which is neither in the end that is, what we call, a computer game.
...People are forever waiting for things to happen to them, instead of actually making things happen...
How about, you, who have read and understood this, become someone who actually makes something happen, eh?
That is a lot of effort in point out that this game showed be a WOW clone. Not that it is a bad thing if thats what you want . But if they made the changes that you said need to be made I would stop playing Aion just like I stopped playing WOW. I stll believe WOW is the simplist MMORPG that I every played and a good percentage of our ( I need instant gratification) society likes that. but one WOW is more than enough
Well, I remember a while back, people in Lineage 2 werre wondering why there was such a heavy emphasis on chance. There are chances to break one's gear while enchanting, chances that adding certain stones would fail, there was a lottery and a "monster" race which was also chanced based. There are even in game dice that one can roll.
Chance was all over the game.
Then someone came on the forum who lived in korea and said that koreans (other asians as well?) loved games of chance and gambling.
If this is indeed true then it not only explains the plethora of chance in L2 but also in Aion. Which then means that this is a design choice based after preference.
Which then means that it's not broken, it's how they want it.
so essentially you don't like their preferences. That's ok. But it doesn't mean that they don't like it probably means that there will be more instances of chance based gameplay.
We can already see it in adding the mana stones or enchanting items like L2.
If this is indeed
Not only the koreans like chance, we do too. We just have more ways of expressing it and don't rely on MMORPG's to fullfill that need. Poker anyone, all based on chance and probability, thinking you have the best hand but never sure. Same applies in Aion, chance does take skill too! You need to go into the fight with the probability you will win. Over time, the probability is you will get stronger.
If they made this game so you could accomplish everything in PvP in a month then this game wouldn't last very long would it? Playing more should mean more benefits, it's your reward for spending more time in game. It's a step up from Lineage 2 where you could practically buy a 80+ toon, boss jewels and an enchanted set of armor and weapons if money isn't an issue. True there are still items in Aion worth $500+ but again it's better than L2 was.
Maybe but i dont see Blizz needing any help. Aion will take subs from WOW for sure. It will take subs from WAR, LOTRO and many other games as well. The question is how many will return to WOW, WAR and LOTRO after the honeymoon and Aion becomes just another pretty face. I remember a friend telling me when AOC launched his WOW guild was destroyed because of people leaving. Well a month or three later and his guild was back. Im sure Blizz is watching to see how this or that implementation is accepted by fans but i truly doubt that they are paying for folks to come to the boards and talk trash about Aion.
you know why RNG is great? because you have to think on your feet. this is how I PvP on my rogue in WoW.
(clothie) Ambush, mutilate, evisc. restealth and find a new clothie to kill
(non clothie) Cheapshot, Mutilate, KS, Mutilate, mutilate, gouge, Evisc. restealth and find a clothie so my next kill only takes 4.5 seconds.
and WoW still has plenty of RNG reliant classes. ask any moonkin who raids and their entire rotation is built around RNG.
I'll take Aions chance to stun skills over stunlocking Rogues/pallys, because I have fun in Aion, and I'm having problems just getting myself to log into WoW. I disagree with pretty much all your points because the things you list don't need to be fixed, they are fine, fun. Aion's combat isn't any more simple than other MMOs i've played. hell, Planetside had some of the most simple combat i've ever seen and it was still incredibly fun, simple isn't bad. If simple was bad, WoW would be dead, but its not, he has shown that simple is a success. and nothing in Aion is terribly broken. the long cooldown you pointed to as 1shotting people deals 1.8k damage, not going to 1shot anyone. and the transformations really make the game exciting, but maybe thats because I enjoy teamwork, and seeing the PvP version of a raid boss looks like a challange to me, not a problem.
your post reeks of "wow is great" and simply points out things that Aion does differently, not wrong.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
/chuckle
TLDR
Agreed. If you have to use video's to make your point its a fail in my book regardless.
I read some of it... dismissed the rest as whining, I'll give it a go and see for myself.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You can only use one at a time. And yeah jflanden, you're on a crusade.
You can only use one 5minute scroll at a time? Then that means it''s worse because you will have to be sawpping between 5minute scrolls constantly.
I feel you're gonna take anything I say and turn it against Aion. In your first post you complained about people using tons of consumables per battle, now you complain because you swap them every 5 minutes? Which isn't true, throught rifts, you use movement speed, in the abyss, you use flight speed, and if you don't, nothing happens, because this game isn't about 1v1, and movement speed is useless when they focus fire on 1 target at a time. That's about it.
The complaint never changed, there are too many MANDATORY consumables to stock up on. How is it fun to keep swapping between 5minute scrolls everytime you are on ground, attacking someone, or flying? Just having to refresh a scroll every 5minutes is ridiculous. That isn't counting having to carry around a lot of CC removing potions.
You can think they aren't mandatory but they are for anyone who wants to be competitive at all. 20% speed increase/6% attack speed(speeds up combos)/CC removing is very overpowered that everyone will need to farm before enjoying PvP. Stat boosters like food/drink are okay, but the scrolls/CC-removing potion need to be fixed/nerfed/removed.
But if we disagree with the OP we're clearly fanboys, right? That's what you're getting to I'm sure.
Yes, there were a few fanboys here who just dismissed the OP as a troll. The rest of us gave our reasons why we think he is wrong. I don't see how hard that is to really believe after all, but obviously if you are in favor of a game you're a fanboy, and if you dislike a game you're a hater.
But if we disagree with the OP we're clearly fanboys, right? That's what you're getting to I'm sure.
Yes, there were a few fanboys here who just dismissed the OP as a troll. The rest of us gave our reasons why we think he is wrong. I don't see how hard that is to really believe after all, but obviously if you are in favor of a game you're a fanboy, and if you dislike a game you're a hater.
QFT
exactly. If I think I might like a game, no review, or player rant will change my mind. I buy it and decide on my own. L2 got horrible reviews and lots of hate from the gaming community. It is one of my fav MMOs of all time and I just resubbed after a long break.
The fights themselves aren't the same, the strategy and ability rotation is the same with RNG deciding the winner. Assassin vs Assassin video is perfect for showing this because it is mirrored matches, everyone uses the same skill rotation and who ever is the luckiest wins. Watch the first fight in the video, he lands every ability and kills him within less than 5seconds because of RNG.
Alright, I think I'll probably be one of the only people agreeing with you to some extent.
However, WoW is still at it's core RNG: Kidney shot can be dodge/parried (unless combat spec, which most arena rogues aren't), critical hits often determine outcomes i.e. frostrike and they are entirely RNG dependent with resilience making crit nothing close to 90%, spells can be resisted and most importantly in the videos you had shown stealth detection is also random.
The problem with your information is that you DON'T have the rates: If the assassin stun has a 90% chance of landing, then that isn't so bad as say 60%; most of the time you will land the stun. It's also important to point out that NOTHING is truly RANDOM : They use deterministic functions. Blizzard's random function is dependent on server parameters (not clientside, since that could be manipulated easily) , which is why it's not uncommon to see large strings of crits/misses/parries over short intervals.
I have to agree that Aion's combat does seem a bit simplistic: There are few CC's spread among the classes, few interrupts and really not much else going on other than combo sequences sans the complex hit detection you'd find in AoC (although AoC's combat has been butchered beyond repair.. ). Spirit masters are the analogues of warlocks, assassins rogues etc. and none of them really have the same breadth of skills that they do in WoW. If you don't believe me, then go google aion skills and read them from aion-welten, the German site, or on Aion source with English translation.
That having been said, I have preordered aion and will base my decision of purchase on the upcoming beta weekend. Even if the skills and PvP lack the depth that WoW has, there will most likely be improvement as the game is still young. I think most people share the same sentiment, since any game after 5 years or so will start to bore you out of your mind.
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
I can go find a number of videos with people doing the exact same things against each other in WoW right now. Hell, I remember when I played my duals as an Arms warrior against another one would often be a mirror match for a while.
I do think that stigma stones are going to help. I took it upon myself to look at some of the various skills and such some of the classes had, and it seems like each class has a number of combos which then can also go into two different directions. (I.E the starter move has 2 possible chains).
As far as the RNG comes into play it looks like a lot of classes have ways to kind of take advantage of that. Some classes have combos that start when an enemy is knocked down, for example.
Either way you are certainly right about RNG still being in WoW very much. I've seen matches won where the player got a string of lucky crits, and that certainly is all about the RNG. I'm not sure how RNG will really work with Aion, especially considering that Korean random is never really random =P (Memories from L2 here), but I don't think it's as big of an issue as the OP makes it out to be.
I do think that if you're going to pay attention a lot to 1v1 encounters you might be a little disappointed with RNG from some classes. The skill does seem to come from how you deal with the RNG as a group, as a good group will be able to use defensive buffs and such during times where RNG is against them and they will know when to go after that kill when RNG hits good.
If Aion was going for an Arena, "e-sport", model like WoW than I would agree that RNG would want to be delt with. For a large scale game like it is though I don't really see it as a problem, even though I will say that I haven't had the chance to play a lot in regards to PvP. Still Lineage II had a lot of RNG in PvP, especially with lethal shots, abilities with low land rates and such and it is my favorite PvP MMO, and I also think it is (or at least was, idk) a quite balanced MMO.
I have seen coordinated groups of six people hold off zergs of 24 or more in Aion, on multiple occasions.
Any claim that the combat is not skill based is essentially void for me because of this. The OP is 100% speculation and 0% actual play experience.
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This is nice and all, but I don't think it occured to you that his posting history and reputation on another forum precedes him.
He's someone who is a known hater/basher/troll call him what you will, and always brings up WoW and how Aion should be "WoWified" even more. This OP is not credible at all. You have no idea.
When someone makes a huge and detailed post like that, it doesn't mean that he's seriously considering improving the game. There are multiple possibilities. Some of them are:
There are other possibilities as well, however let's stop here. You think it's the 4th possibility? wrong, which you thought was right.
A lot of people have accounts on Aionsource, so it's really no surprise at all when they all discarded him, even though at first sight, it does look like he has some valid points.
"Not everyone who hates Aion plays WOW, not everyone who hates Aion likes WOW, and for many of us who did play DAOC, Aion is FAR AND AWAY anything like DAOC. Its an insult to DAOC to even compare the two in my opinion."
Your opinion is your own, however I doubt you even played a character to level25+. It's well known that the first 20levels are all PvE (which I hate and seriously think it's a bad design decision), so there is no way you could have seen any form of PvP whatsoever, thus you're just having a dig at other "Fanbois". It's kinda sad, but there are a lot of such sentences so it doesn't really stand out in these forums.