Originally posted by Greenie I guess you missed the very first part of highlighted text in the OP that states: "We always cater to the hardcore" and make it more accessible.
Blizzard is known for making good, entertaining, working games.
So you agree?
I love taking things out of context to find the true meaning implied
I think sometimes you need to take a step back. Blizzard offers an entertainment service in WoW. When you break apart that service you see its a hodgepodge of various concepts from various other games through time. People hate the term 'clone' but each of these grinders that have come out since Eq/DAOC days are basically clones of some invisible standard that the genre has set for itself. WoW is no different.
You can judge the game all you want. I haven't played in like 2 years and I was actaully considering resubbing for a month just to see what its like now, but they obviously had a perfect -storm cliche mix because you don't get 5 million subs just because you are Vivendi.
Originally posted by Greenie I guess you missed the very first part of highlighted text in the OP that states: "We always cater to the hardcore" and make it more accessible.
Blizzard is known for making good, entertaining, working games.
So you agree?
I love taking things out of context to find the true meaning implied
haha , actually the only game from blizzard I've like was Diablo 1 and 2. The story was enough to keep me interested and I love cutscenes and voiceovers.
I think WoW is the biggest pile of poo I've seen in a while. Scratch that, Warhammer is, at least WoW worked. :P
The fact that you would have to google how to spec your hunter and what rotation to use to max your dps proves your an idiot, and that Teala is right.
Exactly.
And if you think that googling your toon is enough to be a good player, you have never raided or done any difficult content.
Or ever PvP'd other then battlegrounds.
The point of this wasn't to start another WoW debate, just saying that Blizzard, as a company, really understands what makes a game good and what makes it popular and more MMORPG developers need to pay attention, not to WHAT they do, but to HOW they do it more then anything.
Ah, if you want to be a good player in WoW it takes more than google. Here are the two steps needed:
1) roll the overpowered fotm class
2) get better gear than the other people
Voila!!! You will now be a better player than other people who have not followed steps 1 and 2.
The fact that you would have to google how to spec your hunter and what rotation to use to max your dps proves your an idiot, and that Teala is right.
Exactly.
And if you think that googling your toon is enough to be a good player, you have never raided or done any difficult content.
Or ever PvP'd other then battlegrounds.
The point of this wasn't to start another WoW debate, just saying that Blizzard, as a company, really understands what makes a game good and what makes it popular and more MMORPG developers need to pay attention, not to WHAT they do, but to HOW they do it more then anything.
Ah, if you want to be a good player in WoW it takes more than google. Here are the two steps needed:
1) roll the overpowered fotm class
2) get better gear than the other people
Voila!!! You will now be a better player than other people who have not followed steps 1 and 2.
Does it hurt? Like, physically it causes you pain to be that ignorant and completely incorrect? I mean, idiocy of that magnitude must hurt.
Blizzard on catering to the hardcore, making the game accessible and bringing eSports to the masses.
by Cam Shea, IGN AU
Australia, July 10, 2009 - Blizzard has an interesting challenge on its hands for the game design of StarCraft II. On one hand, the original has proven to be one of the most popular and long running multiplayer videogames of all time: not only is it still played today, but it's an institution in South Korea, where the game's popularity and its level of coverage essentially make it a national sport. On the other hand - and against this weight of expectation for a balanced, deep game that will thrive in the pro circuits - Blizzard is also looking for a blockbuster hit: a game that will go beyond the hardcore and enter the mainstream. Of course, the company has proven time and again that it has what it takes to do just that, and that making a game that will appeal to the hardcore, as well as be accessible for mainstream players is not a diametrically opposed challenge, but part of the same process. Indeed, strangely enough, mainstream appeal is born out of making a game for the hardcore. "This is sort of a Blizzard core design philosophy," Dustin Browder, StarCraft II's lead game designer told us. "We always cater to the hardcore community. Always. From minute one we focus on them, and then we try to make it more accessible after that... A lot of other companies say 'casual first because they're the biggest numbers… and then someday we'll deal with those hardcore guys if we get time to get to them...,' but we say 'look, at the end of the day, everybody has the chance to become a hardcore person if only you'll let them'."
Part of transitioning players from more casual fans to fanatics is about building the right learning curve; the classic 'easy to learn, hard to master' philosophy of Blizzard. "WoW has a real advantage over us in the sense that they have that 1-79 experience with questing, which is pretty easy to do and not too hardcore," Dustin says, "and then it gets pretty hardcore with raids and PVP arena, but at that point, how comfortable are you with this character?" The goal for StarCraft II, then, is to have stages for players to progress through. Dustin maps it out: "Try your campaign, cool. Okay, try your skirmish – you can get some achievements playing skirmish for a few games. How about these challenges that you can play? Each of these challenges is about five to ten minutes, and each one of them teaches you a core bit of RTS StarCraft II strategy. Why don't you try those out? We've got some achievements for you there too. Hey, you know what? You should go online. There's this casual league online – you should click on that and see what happens there. It's a casual league, there's no rush maps, the game speed is set a little bit slower, why don't you try that for a couple of weeks? Hey, you know what might be fun? Maybe you should play a 2v2, just one. So if we can sort of step it out for them it'll be great. If they just play the campaign then click on 'play [online] game', then, oh God, it's going to be horrible.""
""Making a game that can ease in newcomers and provide a fun experience for casual players, as well as sate the appetites of pro gamers, isn't the whole story though. There's also eSports. How to promote StarCraft II as a spectator sport outside South Korea? How to introduce people to the complexities and minor details of pro play? Can it even work as a spectator support in the West? Dustin isn't certain, but the team is committed to doing everything it can to try and make it happen. That's why the studio is producing the Battle Reports, to "give people a window," that isn't too hardcore – quite a different approach to the Shoutcast community where a high level of knowledge is assumed. "If we can put out stuff that says 'hey guys – competitive gaming – fun to watch! Check this shit out!'," Dustin says, "I think it might get more breadth.""
Now read those highlighted parts again, and then you'll know exactly why WoW is so huge and every major MMO released since then has not been able to retain any more then a few hundred thousands subs.
NO they don't get it there is nothing hardcore about anything Blizzard has done.
Standalone games they are ok at making but there are tons of other companys out there just as good.
MMO they really know how to make a game that can be boted and that can pull in goldsellers. You take away all the goldsellers and botters and you maybe have a 2mil sub which is good granted but there is nothing hardcore about it.
I am not dogging Blizzard or WoW just saying there is nothing HardCore about Blizzard.
Assassin's like to do it in the dark and from behind.
It really seemed like Blizzard is pointing at nearly every average joe and saying "You ARE hardcore!"
*Points a little Timmy*
"My main man, you too can be hardcore!"
*Points at mother Mildred*
"Sexy mama, you too are hardcore!"
Almost feels like a marketing ploy to get the average point-click-consumer/gamer to feel better about themselves and become willing to try a "hardcore" game.
Which wouldn't be too bad of a thing to do... depends on if SCII is really hardcore, and if the learning curve isn't too steep.
Still... I can't get the image of a Blizzard rep pointing at or grabbing people and shouting "You are hardcore!"
Blizzard on catering to the hardcore, making the game accessible and bringing eSports to the masses.
by Cam Shea, IGN AU
Australia, July 10, 2009 - Blizzard has an interesting challenge on its hands for the game design of StarCraft II. On one hand, the original has proven to be one of the most popular and long running multiplayer videogames of all time: not only is it still played today, but it's an institution in South Korea, where the game's popularity and its level of coverage essentially make it a national sport. On the other hand - and against this weight of expectation for a balanced, deep game that will thrive in the pro circuits - Blizzard is also looking for a blockbuster hit: a game that will go beyond the hardcore and enter the mainstream. Of course, the company has proven time and again that it has what it takes to do just that, and that making a game that will appeal to the hardcore, as well as be accessible for mainstream players is not a diametrically opposed challenge, but part of the same process. Indeed, strangely enough, mainstream appeal is born out of making a game for the hardcore. "This is sort of a Blizzard core design philosophy," Dustin Browder, StarCraft II's lead game designer told us. "We always cater to the hardcore community. Always. From minute one we focus on them, and then we try to make it more accessible after that... A lot of other companies say 'casual first because they're the biggest numbers… and then someday we'll deal with those hardcore guys if we get time to get to them...,' but we say 'look, at the end of the day, everybody has the chance to become a hardcore person if only you'll let them'."
Part of transitioning players from more casual fans to fanatics is about building the right learning curve; the classic 'easy to learn, hard to master' philosophy of Blizzard. "WoW has a real advantage over us in the sense that they have that 1-79 experience with questing, which is pretty easy to do and not too hardcore," Dustin says, "and then it gets pretty hardcore with raids and PVP arena, but at that point, how comfortable are you with this character?" The goal for StarCraft II, then, is to have stages for players to progress through. Dustin maps it out: "Try your campaign, cool. Okay, try your skirmish – you can get some achievements playing skirmish for a few games. How about these challenges that you can play? Each of these challenges is about five to ten minutes, and each one of them teaches you a core bit of RTS StarCraft II strategy. Why don't you try those out? We've got some achievements for you there too. Hey, you know what? You should go online. There's this casual league online – you should click on that and see what happens there. It's a casual league, there's no rush maps, the game speed is set a little bit slower, why don't you try that for a couple of weeks? Hey, you know what might be fun? Maybe you should play a 2v2, just one. So if we can sort of step it out for them it'll be great. If they just play the campaign then click on 'play [online] game', then, oh God, it's going to be horrible.""
""Making a game that can ease in newcomers and provide a fun experience for casual players, as well as sate the appetites of pro gamers, isn't the whole story though. There's also eSports. How to promote StarCraft II as a spectator sport outside South Korea? How to introduce people to the complexities and minor details of pro play? Can it even work as a spectator support in the West? Dustin isn't certain, but the team is committed to doing everything it can to try and make it happen. That's why the studio is producing the Battle Reports, to "give people a window," that isn't too hardcore – quite a different approach to the Shoutcast community where a high level of knowledge is assumed. "If we can put out stuff that says 'hey guys – competitive gaming – fun to watch! Check this shit out!'," Dustin says, "I think it might get more breadth.""
Now read those highlighted parts again, and then you'll know exactly why WoW is so huge and every major MMO released since then has not been able to retain any more then a few hundred thousands subs.
NO they don't get it there is nothing hardcore about anything Blizzard has done.
Standalone games they are ok at making but there are tons of other companys out there just as good.
MMO they really know how to make a game that can be boted and that can pull in goldsellers. You take away all the goldsellers and botters and you maybe have a 2mil sub which is good granted but there is nothing hardcore about it.
I am not dogging Blizzard or WoW just saying there is nothing HardCore about Blizzard.
I agree that blizz isn't hardcore but lefts face its take away the goldsellers in wow and that would at most be 100k subs dont kid yourself. However, blizzards games tend to attract elitist players. I think thats what the op was talking about
I agree that blizz isn't hardcore but lefts face its take away the goldsellers in wow and that would at most be 100k subs dont kid yourself. However, blizzards games tend to attract elitist players. I think thats what the op was talking about
No they make games that appeal to hardcore and casual players.
Hence, ridiculous success is almost garauntee for any game they ever make.
Originally posted by Greenie Ah, if you want to be a good player in WoW it takes more than google. Here are the two steps needed: 1) roll the overpowered fotm class 2) get better gear than the other people Voila!!! You will now be a better player than other people who have not followed steps 1 and 2.
Does it hurt? Like, physically it causes you pain to be that ignorant and completely incorrect? I mean, idiocy of that magnitude must hurt.
Are you denying the fact that gear matters more than anything in wow? Gear + fotm class will make any average player look like a good player in wow. That was my point. Blizzard hands the tools to be overrated to players on a silver platter.
Does following step 1 and 2 actually make you a good player? Hell no, but it will make you more successful.
If you don't agree with that, then you sir are the idiot and have probably learned about pvp solely through wow.
Originally posted by GreenChaosOriginally posted by DemonshankOriginally posted by GreenChaos What are you people smoking? Blizzard catering to casuals? This article is about SC2, not WoW. So I would love to see some of you complaining about how Blizzard caters to causals, play some SC2 against a pro Korean player. SC2 Casual my ass
"This is sort of a Blizzard core design philosophy," Dustin Browder, StarCraft II's lead game designer told us. Hello? My point is SC2 will not be for casuals. It is a game for pro gamers. This is just a marketing piece, to get normal folk to buy it. Marketing = talking smack = may not true.
Your point is crystal clear. Im sure anyone that is even slightly fimilliar with SC would agree. This article does lean towards the SC2 model, but it also makes a blanket inclusion regarding their core design frameworks. I think that is where many decided to call out the BS on blizzard regarding WoW.
SC2 will hopefully live up to its debut model and stay hardcore for pro gamers. I also hope those within the genre(rts) hold them to that standard. I believe the real mmorpg gamers have washed their hands of blizzards all talk, 0 substance output.
Although, blizzard does have one extremely hardcore zealot...Heerobya.
In other words, Blizzard has mastered the "bait & switch" scam; they lure you in with the casual-friendly, solo-friendly 1-79, and then switch the game at the end on you, hoping you're too invested in your character to pull the plug and quit. I appreciate you bringing that article to my attention - I was planning on getting Diablo III, but now that I know that everything Blizzard makes is designed specifically to lie to and trick players like me into becoming "hardcore fanatics", I guess I'll just take the blizzard home page out of my faves tab.
Seriously? Grow up.
If it's a good game, you'll play it and have fun.
Not buying a good, fun game that you will really enjoy for some BS political stance is really quite stupid.
But hey, it's your money and your decision.
I just feel sorry you'd let your bias keep you from playing great video games.
Generally, when you "grow up", you develop principles which are more important to you than enjoying a video game.
Good thing I don't care about either game heh, I was just surprised when I found out there will be no LAN. While I can probably figure out why, it's a bad move imo.
Yes Bliz makes games for the Masses, but Im not one of the masses and I never was and never will be. Now because of Blizz success I and many others gamers that don't like games made for the masses have to put up with other crap games that try and compete with WoW.
While there are a few games I have my eye on like FE and FFXIV I have no games that even remotely interest me that are already out. So while they may be bringing in people they are also pushing people away from the MMORPG genre. I love my old games that take forever to level and are grouped based, not none of this solo quests group up to get uber gear and once you get something everyone scatters like a bunch of cockroaches when a light gets turned on.
Originally posted by GreenChaos Originally posted by Demonshank Originally posted by GreenChaos What are you people smoking? Blizzard catering to casuals? This article is about SC2, not WoW. So I would love to see some of you complaining about how Blizzard caters to causals, play some SC2 against a pro Korean player. SC2 Casual my ass
"This is sort of a Blizzard core design philosophy," Dustin Browder, StarCraft II's lead game designer told us. Hello? My point is SC2 will not be for casuals. It is a game for pro gamers. This is just a marketing piece, to get normal folk to buy it. Marketing = talking smack = may not true.
Your point is crystal clear. Im sure anyone that is even slightly fimilliar with SC would agree. This article does lean towards the SC2 model, but it also makes a blanket inclusion regarding their core design frameworks. I think that is where many decided to call out the BS on blizzard regarding WoW.
SC2 will hopefully live up to its debut model and stay hardcore for pro gamers. I also hope those within the genre(rts) hold them to that standard. I believe the real mmorpg gamers have washed their hands of blizzards all talk, 0 substance output.
Although, blizzard does have one extremely hardcore zealot...Heerobya.
Actually, I think many "real" mmorpg gamers are playing and enjoying World of Warcraft.
0 substance? Lets look at the facts:
All of World of Warcraft's expansion packs + the original game have a metacritic score of over 90%.
There is actually plenty of substance in World of Warcraft.
Blizzard doesn't "get it" because there is no single "it".
They "get" the mass market, lowest common denominator easy MMORPG niche. That is a very good niche to "get" because it is a very big niche and makes a big pile of cash. WoW is a good game if you like that niche.
Eve "gets it" for a different niche.
Warhammer doesn't seem to have quite "got it" for the niche they were aiming at.
AoC doesn't seem to have quite "got it" for the niche they were aiming at.
I don't see any benefit to a game company trying to create a WoW clone unless it does everything WoW does but does it better in every way from day one. I think the only exception to that would be a WoW clone that was F2P.
All other new games should aim at being different from WoW in some specific way and catering to a particular niche whether it's PvP, grouping, visual style and quality or something.
EDIT: Also they need to expect to not get the same amount of subs as WoW and not borrow too much money to make the game otherwsie they could make a decent niche game but still go bankrupt.
In other words, Blizzard has mastered the "bait & switch" scam; they lure you in with the casual-friendly, solo-friendly 1-79, and then switch the game at the end on you, hoping you're too invested in your character to pull the plug and quit. I appreciate you bringing that article to my attention - I was planning on getting Diablo III, but now that I know that everything Blizzard makes is designed specifically to lie to and trick players like me into becoming "hardcore fanatics", I guess I'll just take the blizzard home page out of my faves tab.
Seriously? Grow up.
If it's a good game, you'll play it and have fun.
Not buying a good, fun game that you will really enjoy for some BS political stance is really quite stupid.
But hey, it's your money and your decision.
I just feel sorry you'd let your bias keep you from playing great video games.
Generally, when you "grow up", you develop principles which are more important to you than enjoying a video game.
When you grow up, you develop principles that you stick to when you make important decisions in life, not deciding if you want to buy a video game or not.
The way I see it, World of Warcraft's endgame is there to give players who are truly dedicated to their character a way to keep playing that character while it gives Blizzard time to develop new content. You can't expect Blizzard to develop faster than players can play through.
If you don't want to play "hardcore" with your character once you reach the cap, then don't.
You're free to make a brand new character, there are 2 factions and enough areas,quests and classes to give you a different experience.
In other words, Blizzard has mastered the "bait & switch" scam; they lure you in with the casual-friendly, solo-friendly 1-79, and then switch the game at the end on you, hoping you're too invested in your character to pull the plug and quit. I appreciate you bringing that article to my attention - I was planning on getting Diablo III, but now that I know that everything Blizzard makes is designed specifically to lie to and trick players like me into becoming "hardcore fanatics", I guess I'll just take the blizzard home page out of my faves tab.
Seriously? Grow up.
If it's a good game, you'll play it and have fun.
Not buying a good, fun game that you will really enjoy for some BS political stance is really quite stupid.
But hey, it's your money and your decision.
I just feel sorry you'd let your bias keep you from playing great video games.
I understand Meleagar's anger at the "bait and switch" design and he's right about it. However, it's not just Blizzard that does that it's most MMORPG developers.
I don't even want the same things that Meleagar wants in a game but he has every right to be pissed off about that type of design philosophy. And that type of design, in which a game starts out as one thing and switches to something else later on, is largely responsible for all the damn drama on message boards.
Developers should decide which demographic they are making their game for and then stick to that. If they are going to make a game for solo players they should cater to solo players ALL the way through the game. I don't want a game that is entirely designed for solo play but I can sure as hell understand why Meleagar would get pissed off if a game started out that way and then changed to something else after he had invested his time and money playing it. Sure, he got to enjoy it for a while but then when the rug is pulled out from under him can you blame him for being angry?
And what the hell does this have to do with politics? We're talking about games. So he knows what he likes and wants games that provide a consistant experience all the way through. That's not political and it's not childish it's just common sense.
These damn game developers need to stop trying to please everyone in the same game because when they try to do that they inevitably please one segment of mmorpg gamers and piss off all the others. And then we all sit around screaming at each other on message boards like this one.
Actually, I think many "real" mmorpg gamers are playing and enjoying World of Warcraft. 0 substance? Lets look at the facts:
All of World of Warcraft's expansion packs + the original game have a metacritic score of over 90%.
There is actually plenty of substance in World of Warcraft.
I have to applaud you for actually providing info other then how many subs they have. I am tired of that argument lol. I do not however consider this info very accurate. They took 57 peoples opinions of the game. Thats hardly enough to say the game deserves that rating.
I am willing to bet 10% of the subs in WoW are just playing for something to do, not because they actually enjoy the game.
Actually, I think many "real" mmorpg gamers are playing and enjoying World of Warcraft. 0 substance? Lets look at the facts:
All of World of Warcraft's expansion packs + the original game have a metacritic score of over 90%.
There is actually plenty of substance in World of Warcraft.
I have to applaud you for actually providing info other then how many subs they have. I am tired of that argument lol. I do not however consider this info very accurate. They took 57 peoples opinions of the game. Thats hardly enough to say the game deserves that rating.
I am willing to bet 10% of the subs in WoW are just playing for something to do, not because they actually enjoy the game.
Though you have to admit, they did enjoy the game at one time, or else they wouldn't still be playing it.
When you grow up, you develop principles that you stick to when you make important decisions in life, not deciding if you want to buy a video game or not. The way I see it, World of Warcraft's endgame is there to give players who are truly dedicated to their character a way to keep playing that character while it gives Blizzard time to develop new content. You can't expect Blizzard to develop faster than players can play through.
If you don't want to play "hardcore" with your character once you reach the cap, then don't. You're free to make a brand new character, there are 2 factions and enough areas,quests and classes to give you a different experience.
Finally, another old school MMO vet and veteran like myself who can bring some order and logic to these boards.
Thanks Gameloading, I've missed you.
I just love how people assume because I try and defend WoW that I'm some carebear noob whose first MMO was WoW. I just love it!
Let me talk plain-
I started MMOs with Ultima Online when the game was still in Beta, playing on a friends account. I didn't have my own account and play really seriously until the Trammel / Felucca split, and I spent about half my time on the Atlantic server mostly on the PvE side (Trammel) until the Factions PvP system came out.
The other half of my play time I spent on the Siege Perilous shard, which had NO Trammel and was quite "hardcore" in the FFA PvP only rule set, they even capped the number of skill/stat gains you could make in a day.
I absolutely hated Everquest. I thought it was a linear, gear oriented, level grind fest and compared to UO I thought it was total trash.
I played around a bit in Earth and Beyond, Final Fantasy XI, and ended up in Star Wars Galaxies at launch and loved that game up until the Holocron grind came out, which I thought was the absolute worst grind-heavy no-thought game system I have ever seen in any game, let along a MMORPG. It angered me so much and I thought it was so stupid i completely quit playing SWG and MMOs all together.
I wasn't even around for the Combat Upgrade or New Game Experience. I gave up on that piece of sh!t game long before that.
Then World of Warcraft came around.
Been playing off and on ever since.
So I'm about as "old school" and "hardcore" as you can get, but I'm also much older and wiser now then I was as a kid and teenager. I also have a lot more going on in my life.
And I still think World of Warcraft is the best MMORPG released to date and I could tell you exactly why.
Actually, I think many "real" mmorpg gamers are playing and enjoying World of Warcraft. 0 substance? Lets look at the facts:
All of World of Warcraft's expansion packs + the original game have a metacritic score of over 90%.
There is actually plenty of substance in World of Warcraft.
I have to applaud you for actually providing info other then how many subs they have. I am tired of that argument lol. I do not however consider this info very accurate. They took 57 peoples opinions of the game. Thats hardly enough to say the game deserves that rating.
I am willing to bet 10% of the subs in WoW are just playing for something to do, not because they actually enjoy the game.
Though you have to admit, they did enjoy the game at one time, or else they wouldn't still be playing it.
I never said they didn't. Hell I enjoyed WoW at the start, but now.... The game is just...
Maybe I over played it. Maybe I grew out of it. There could be a bunch of reasons why I don't like the game now. I think it is basically I hate Blizzard more then the game.
I don't consider the game hard though by any means. It all has to do with time spent in it.
Finally, another old school MMO vet and veteran like myself who can bring some order and logic to these boards. Thanks Gameloading, I've missed you.
I just love how people assume because I try and defend WoW that I'm some carebear noob whose first MMO was WoW. I just love it! Let me talk plain- I started MMOs with Ultima Online when the game was still in Beta, playing on a friends account. I didn't have my own account and play really seriously until the Trammel / Felucca split, and I spent about half my time on the Atlantic server mostly on the PvE side (Trammel) until the Factions PvP system came out.
The other half of my play time I spent on the Siege Perilous shard, which had NO Trammel and was quite "hardcore" in the FFA PvP only rule set, they even capped the number of skill/stat gains you could make in a day.
I absolutely hated Everquest. I thought it was a linear, gear oriented, level grind fest and compared to UO I thought it was total trash.
I played around a bit in Earth and Beyond, Final Fantasy XI, and ended up in Star Wars Galaxies at launch and loved that game up until the Holocron grind came out, which I thought was the absolute worst grind-heavy no-thought game system I have ever seen in any game, let along a MMORPG. It angered me so much and I thought it was so stupid i completely quit playing SWG and MMOs all together.
I wasn't even around for the Combat Upgrade or New Game Experience. I gave up on that piece of sh!t game long before that.
Then World of Warcraft came around.
Been playing off and on ever since.
So I'm about as "old school" and "hardcore" as you can get, but I'm also much older and wiser now then I was as a kid and teenager. I also have a lot more going on in my life.
And I still think World of Warcraft is the best MMORPG released to date and I could tell you exactly why.
But you're not denying that gear makes all the difference in the world are you? Or that there are overpowered classes that get cycled through consistently.
Both of which make an average player look better than their actual skills when competing against other less geared or optimal classes.
Comments
So you agree?
I love taking things out of context to find the true meaning implied
I think sometimes you need to take a step back. Blizzard offers an entertainment service in WoW. When you break apart that service you see its a hodgepodge of various concepts from various other games through time. People hate the term 'clone' but each of these grinders that have come out since Eq/DAOC days are basically clones of some invisible standard that the genre has set for itself. WoW is no different.
You can judge the game all you want. I haven't played in like 2 years and I was actaully considering resubbing for a month just to see what its like now, but they obviously had a perfect -storm cliche mix because you don't get 5 million subs just because you are Vivendi.
So you agree?
I love taking things out of context to find the true meaning implied
haha , actually the only game from blizzard I've like was Diablo 1 and 2. The story was enough to keep me interested and I love cutscenes and voiceovers.
I think WoW is the biggest pile of poo I've seen in a while. Scratch that, Warhammer is, at least WoW worked. :P
Exactly.
And if you think that googling your toon is enough to be a good player, you have never raided or done any difficult content.
Or ever PvP'd other then battlegrounds.
The point of this wasn't to start another WoW debate, just saying that Blizzard, as a company, really understands what makes a game good and what makes it popular and more MMORPG developers need to pay attention, not to WHAT they do, but to HOW they do it more then anything.
Ah, if you want to be a good player in WoW it takes more than google. Here are the two steps needed:
1) roll the overpowered fotm class
2) get better gear than the other people
Voila!!! You will now be a better player than other people who have not followed steps 1 and 2.
Exactly.
And if you think that googling your toon is enough to be a good player, you have never raided or done any difficult content.
Or ever PvP'd other then battlegrounds.
The point of this wasn't to start another WoW debate, just saying that Blizzard, as a company, really understands what makes a game good and what makes it popular and more MMORPG developers need to pay attention, not to WHAT they do, but to HOW they do it more then anything.
Ah, if you want to be a good player in WoW it takes more than google. Here are the two steps needed:
1) roll the overpowered fotm class
2) get better gear than the other people
Voila!!! You will now be a better player than other people who have not followed steps 1 and 2.
Does it hurt? Like, physically it causes you pain to be that ignorant and completely incorrect? I mean, idiocy of that magnitude must hurt.
NO they don't get it there is nothing hardcore about anything Blizzard has done.
Standalone games they are ok at making but there are tons of other companys out there just as good.
MMO they really know how to make a game that can be boted and that can pull in goldsellers. You take away all the goldsellers and botters and you maybe have a 2mil sub which is good granted but there is nothing hardcore about it.
I am not dogging Blizzard or WoW just saying there is nothing HardCore about Blizzard.
Assassin's like to do it in the dark and from behind.
Though I enjoyed the article a bit...
It really seemed like Blizzard is pointing at nearly every average joe and saying "You ARE hardcore!"
*Points a little Timmy*
"My main man, you too can be hardcore!"
*Points at mother Mildred*
"Sexy mama, you too are hardcore!"
Almost feels like a marketing ploy to get the average point-click-consumer/gamer to feel better about themselves and become willing to try a "hardcore" game.
Which wouldn't be too bad of a thing to do... depends on if SCII is really hardcore, and if the learning curve isn't too steep.
Still... I can't get the image of a Blizzard rep pointing at or grabbing people and shouting "You are hardcore!"
To get this thread back on topic..
No LAN. Discuss.
NO they don't get it there is nothing hardcore about anything Blizzard has done.
Standalone games they are ok at making but there are tons of other companys out there just as good.
MMO they really know how to make a game that can be boted and that can pull in goldsellers. You take away all the goldsellers and botters and you maybe have a 2mil sub which is good granted but there is nothing hardcore about it.
I am not dogging Blizzard or WoW just saying there is nothing HardCore about Blizzard.
I agree that blizz isn't hardcore but lefts face its take away the goldsellers in wow and that would at most be 100k subs dont kid yourself. However, blizzards games tend to attract elitist players. I think thats what the op was talking about
No they make games that appeal to hardcore and casual players.
Hence, ridiculous success is almost garauntee for any game they ever make.
Does it hurt? Like, physically it causes you pain to be that ignorant and completely incorrect? I mean, idiocy of that magnitude must hurt.
Are you denying the fact that gear matters more than anything in wow? Gear + fotm class will make any average player look like a good player in wow. That was my point. Blizzard hands the tools to be overrated to players on a silver platter.
Does following step 1 and 2 actually make you a good player? Hell no, but it will make you more successful.
If you don't agree with that, then you sir are the idiot and have probably learned about pvp solely through wow.
My point is SC2 will not be for casuals. It is a game for pro gamers. This is just a marketing piece, to get normal folk to buy it. Marketing = talking smack = may not true.
Your point is crystal clear. Im sure anyone that is even slightly fimilliar with SC would agree. This article does lean towards the SC2 model, but it also makes a blanket inclusion regarding their core design frameworks. I think that is where many decided to call out the BS on blizzard regarding WoW.
SC2 will hopefully live up to its debut model and stay hardcore for pro gamers. I also hope those within the genre(rts) hold them to that standard. I believe the real mmorpg gamers have washed their hands of blizzards all talk, 0 substance output.
Although, blizzard does have one extremely hardcore zealot...Heerobya.
Seriously? Grow up.
If it's a good game, you'll play it and have fun.
Not buying a good, fun game that you will really enjoy for some BS political stance is really quite stupid.
But hey, it's your money and your decision.
I just feel sorry you'd let your bias keep you from playing great video games.
Generally, when you "grow up", you develop principles which are more important to you than enjoying a video game.
no LAN for Diablo3 or SC2
no modding for D3
but at least SC2 will have Scumedit
starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Scumedit
EQ2 fan sites
no LAN for Diablo3 or SC2
no modding for D3
but at least SC2 will have Scumedit
starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Scumedit
Good thing I don't care about either game heh, I was just surprised when I found out there will be no LAN. While I can probably figure out why, it's a bad move imo.
Yes Bliz makes games for the Masses, but Im not one of the masses and I never was and never will be. Now because of Blizz success I and many others gamers that don't like games made for the masses have to put up with other crap games that try and compete with WoW.
While there are a few games I have my eye on like FE and FFXIV I have no games that even remotely interest me that are already out. So while they may be bringing in people they are also pushing people away from the MMORPG genre. I love my old games that take forever to level and are grouped based, not none of this solo quests group up to get uber gear and once you get something everyone scatters like a bunch of cockroaches when a light gets turned on.
My point is SC2 will not be for casuals. It is a game for pro gamers. This is just a marketing piece, to get normal folk to buy it. Marketing = talking smack = may not true.
Your point is crystal clear. Im sure anyone that is even slightly fimilliar with SC would agree. This article does lean towards the SC2 model, but it also makes a blanket inclusion regarding their core design frameworks. I think that is where many decided to call out the BS on blizzard regarding WoW.
SC2 will hopefully live up to its debut model and stay hardcore for pro gamers. I also hope those within the genre(rts) hold them to that standard. I believe the real mmorpg gamers have washed their hands of blizzards all talk, 0 substance output.
Although, blizzard does have one extremely hardcore zealot...Heerobya.
Actually, I think many "real" mmorpg gamers are playing and enjoying World of Warcraft.
0 substance? Lets look at the facts:
All of World of Warcraft's expansion packs + the original game have a metacritic score of over 90%.
There is actually plenty of substance in World of Warcraft.
Blizzard doesn't "get it" because there is no single "it".
They "get" the mass market, lowest common denominator easy MMORPG niche. That is a very good niche to "get" because it is a very big niche and makes a big pile of cash. WoW is a good game if you like that niche.
Eve "gets it" for a different niche.
Warhammer doesn't seem to have quite "got it" for the niche they were aiming at.
AoC doesn't seem to have quite "got it" for the niche they were aiming at.
I don't see any benefit to a game company trying to create a WoW clone unless it does everything WoW does but does it better in every way from day one. I think the only exception to that would be a WoW clone that was F2P.
All other new games should aim at being different from WoW in some specific way and catering to a particular niche whether it's PvP, grouping, visual style and quality or something.
EDIT: Also they need to expect to not get the same amount of subs as WoW and not borrow too much money to make the game otherwsie they could make a decent niche game but still go bankrupt.
Seriously? Grow up.
If it's a good game, you'll play it and have fun.
Not buying a good, fun game that you will really enjoy for some BS political stance is really quite stupid.
But hey, it's your money and your decision.
I just feel sorry you'd let your bias keep you from playing great video games.
Generally, when you "grow up", you develop principles which are more important to you than enjoying a video game.
When you grow up, you develop principles that you stick to when you make important decisions in life, not deciding if you want to buy a video game or not.
The way I see it, World of Warcraft's endgame is there to give players who are truly dedicated to their character a way to keep playing that character while it gives Blizzard time to develop new content. You can't expect Blizzard to develop faster than players can play through.
If you don't want to play "hardcore" with your character once you reach the cap, then don't.
You're free to make a brand new character, there are 2 factions and enough areas,quests and classes to give you a different experience.
Seriously? Grow up.
If it's a good game, you'll play it and have fun.
Not buying a good, fun game that you will really enjoy for some BS political stance is really quite stupid.
But hey, it's your money and your decision.
I just feel sorry you'd let your bias keep you from playing great video games.
I understand Meleagar's anger at the "bait and switch" design and he's right about it. However, it's not just Blizzard that does that it's most MMORPG developers.
I don't even want the same things that Meleagar wants in a game but he has every right to be pissed off about that type of design philosophy. And that type of design, in which a game starts out as one thing and switches to something else later on, is largely responsible for all the damn drama on message boards.
Developers should decide which demographic they are making their game for and then stick to that. If they are going to make a game for solo players they should cater to solo players ALL the way through the game. I don't want a game that is entirely designed for solo play but I can sure as hell understand why Meleagar would get pissed off if a game started out that way and then changed to something else after he had invested his time and money playing it. Sure, he got to enjoy it for a while but then when the rug is pulled out from under him can you blame him for being angry?
And what the hell does this have to do with politics? We're talking about games. So he knows what he likes and wants games that provide a consistant experience all the way through. That's not political and it's not childish it's just common sense.
These damn game developers need to stop trying to please everyone in the same game because when they try to do that they inevitably please one segment of mmorpg gamers and piss off all the others. And then we all sit around screaming at each other on message boards like this one.
I have to applaud you for actually providing info other then how many subs they have. I am tired of that argument lol. I do not however consider this info very accurate. They took 57 peoples opinions of the game. Thats hardly enough to say the game deserves that rating.
I am willing to bet 10% of the subs in WoW are just playing for something to do, not because they actually enjoy the game.
I have to applaud you for actually providing info other then how many subs they have. I am tired of that argument lol. I do not however consider this info very accurate. They took 57 peoples opinions of the game. Thats hardly enough to say the game deserves that rating.
I am willing to bet 10% of the subs in WoW are just playing for something to do, not because they actually enjoy the game.
Though you have to admit, they did enjoy the game at one time, or else they wouldn't still be playing it.
Currently restarting World of Warcraft
Finally, another old school MMO vet and veteran like myself who can bring some order and logic to these boards.
Thanks Gameloading, I've missed you.
I just love how people assume because I try and defend WoW that I'm some carebear noob whose first MMO was WoW. I just love it!
Let me talk plain-
I started MMOs with Ultima Online when the game was still in Beta, playing on a friends account. I didn't have my own account and play really seriously until the Trammel / Felucca split, and I spent about half my time on the Atlantic server mostly on the PvE side (Trammel) until the Factions PvP system came out.
The other half of my play time I spent on the Siege Perilous shard, which had NO Trammel and was quite "hardcore" in the FFA PvP only rule set, they even capped the number of skill/stat gains you could make in a day.
I absolutely hated Everquest. I thought it was a linear, gear oriented, level grind fest and compared to UO I thought it was total trash.
I played around a bit in Earth and Beyond, Final Fantasy XI, and ended up in Star Wars Galaxies at launch and loved that game up until the Holocron grind came out, which I thought was the absolute worst grind-heavy no-thought game system I have ever seen in any game, let along a MMORPG. It angered me so much and I thought it was so stupid i completely quit playing SWG and MMOs all together.
I wasn't even around for the Combat Upgrade or New Game Experience. I gave up on that piece of sh!t game long before that.
Then World of Warcraft came around.
Been playing off and on ever since.
So I'm about as "old school" and "hardcore" as you can get, but I'm also much older and wiser now then I was as a kid and teenager. I also have a lot more going on in my life.
And I still think World of Warcraft is the best MMORPG released to date and I could tell you exactly why.
I have to applaud you for actually providing info other then how many subs they have. I am tired of that argument lol. I do not however consider this info very accurate. They took 57 peoples opinions of the game. Thats hardly enough to say the game deserves that rating.
I am willing to bet 10% of the subs in WoW are just playing for something to do, not because they actually enjoy the game.
Though you have to admit, they did enjoy the game at one time, or else they wouldn't still be playing it.
I never said they didn't. Hell I enjoyed WoW at the start, but now.... The game is just...
Maybe I over played it. Maybe I grew out of it. There could be a bunch of reasons why I don't like the game now. I think it is basically I hate Blizzard more then the game.
I don't consider the game hard though by any means. It all has to do with time spent in it.
But you're not denying that gear makes all the difference in the world are you? Or that there are overpowered classes that get cycled through consistently.
Both of which make an average player look better than their actual skills when competing against other less geared or optimal classes.