Originally posted by Vrazule Hint: If you raid, you don't need raid gear for anything but raiding.
Exactly!
You get my point.
So why is it important that you, the non-raider get's raid-level gear then?
I don't think he was asking for raid level gear (maybe he did and I missed it). There is only so much gear in 5 mans for a solo player to get. They add in new raid dungeons a lot more then they add in 5 man instances. That is the problem. The solo player end-game content is just not there.
Originally posted by Vrazule Hint: If you raid, you don't need raid gear for anything but raiding.
Exactly!
You get my point.
So why is it important that you, the non-raider get's raid-level gear then?
You are purposefully obstuse and it's such an endearing trait. You know damn well that raiders don't need raid gear outside of raiding and yet they get to tromp around and make the rest of the game's content trivial just because of their gear.
No one NEEDS anything in a game. It's entertainment, not real life. Games embody everything that we WANT. Only people who try to use MMOs as a life replacement ever use the term, Need.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
You seriously have some issues or you're just flat out stupid. Yea , I won't pay or play for something I don't like. I'm not going to order meatloaf at a restaraunt, because I don't like it. I don't like WOW so I won't play it. I don't like baseball so I'm not ordering the MLB package. The fact that you have a problem with that is just laughable. I guess you conveniently overlooked the fact that FPS make me sick. PHSYICALLY SICK. I'm sorry you don't understand I don't want to throw up every time I play a game. Why don't you eat a gallon of icecream and spin around in circles for 30 minutes. Also, is it wrong to want games that cater to my needs? Isn't that the point of a company making a product? They make a product that meets a persons needs so they will pay them money? Not all games are going to provide me with what I want. DaoC did at one point in time. COH/COV did for a brief time. Maybe Aion or Earthrise will in the future. Who knows, I'll keep looking until I find a game that does.What I do know is WoW didn't. I guess what you really want is for me to apologize for insulting your baby. That aint' gonna happen.
Not at all I'm sorry you get sick playing FPS games.
But don't expect me or anyone else to treat you specially because you are different.
The 2nd to last paragraph I highlighted is the only smart thing you have said all day.
Oh jeeze, I get to sleep better at night now, that an arrogant selfrighteous poster said I made a smart comment.
You are the one adding things into conversations that are not there. I never said I expected to be treated different but YOU seem to add that in for no reason at all, other than pretty much every post you have made is to state that you are correct and everyone is wrong. People are wrong for having opinions, choices, playstyles, and desires. Instead they should all just bow to world of warcrap or go play a FPS.
1: Then don't, I was just using a few examples. You can also play third person shooters, or fighting games or any other competetive kind of game 2: Thats great, but that has nothing to do with fair pvp. I like RPG's as well and I like MMORPG PVP, but if I want to play a competetive game that's all about skill, i'd play a different kind of game.There are too many random elements in mmorpgs for it to be fair such as item drops, but also critical rate and even hit rate. 3: Well there are plenty of games that don't involve the military. 4: Thats fine, I like it too, but I think expecting fair pvp combat in a game that has items which influence your characters abilities which are obtained by chance is simply unrealistic.
What is it about you two that you cannot understand what I say? I know that it won't be completely fair ever. Even in your precious FPS you have ping, lag, computer issues that affect what is happening. Wallhacks, exploits,, just look at any counterstrike thread. So even there you have forces outside your skill affecting the outcome of the fight. Stop with the elitism that FPS is the end all be all of pvp.
What I want is the gap between haves and have nots to be lessened. I want to gear my character up with items I like and not have to search for ONE particular item per slot in order to compete. I don't want to be forced to raid for gear so I can compete. There are times I will win or lose, times I'll be better geared and I won't. I don't have a problem with that. But can you honestly say that IF all things were equal - Season 1 gear could compete with gear now? And further, GEAR affects crit rate and hit rate in many MMO's now.
DaoC 8 vs 8 was a prime example. Realm rank mattered, it made your toon more powerful, but you had to earn it by beating other players. If you geared everyone to max stats, and kept them at realm rank 0, and let them use identical setups , the good 8 man teams would still roll most of the players because they worked well in a team. Fights weren't always fair, but teamwork mattered and until TOA gear wasn't the defining factor like it is today.
Earthrise is going to be a 3rd person shooter, I am looking forward to that game.
I do understand what you say, I just don't agree with you.
Ofcourse FPS are never entirely fair either, but the reasons you mentioned are all technical. They have nothing to do with the actual game design.
I don't think the gap between haves and not haves to be lessened. Because if you lessen the gap, you'll also lessen the satisfaction you get from finding a rare item.
I do agree that there should be alternatives ways to obtain high end gear besides raiding, but I disagree that the effect should be lessened. if I spend a lot of time obtaining a high end item, i expect to beat somebody who spend far less time obtaining items.
Originally posted by Vrazule Hint: If you raid, you don't need raid gear for anything but raiding.
Exactly!
You get my point.
So why is it important that you, the non-raider get's raid-level gear then?
The game is designed to offer raiders instances where they get and require superior gear, which they get to wear everywhere in the game. The game could also be designed to offer solo encounters that offer and require similarly superior gear. The reason there are no such solo instances and gear offered is because those that create the game decided to exclusively reward raiders.
It's really quite simple: soloers would like a game where **they** have opportunities to get and need equitable superior reward. Why should we play a game where our playstyle has specifically been coded to be 2nd rate?
I do understand what you say, I just don't agree with you.
Ofcourse FPS are never entirely fair either, but the reasons you mentioned are all technical. They have nothing to do with the actual game design.
I don't think the gap between haves and not haves to be lessened. Because if you lessen the gap, you'll also lessen the satisfaction you get from finding a rare item.
I do agree that there should be alternatives ways to obtain high end gear besides raiding, but I disagree that the effect should be lessened. if I spend a lot of time obtaining a high end item, i expect to beat somebody who spend far less time obtaining items.
Fine you don't agree with me, but let's be real and not exclude some facts.
There are FPS out there that have better weapons. You think a sniper rifle isn't a different type of gear upgrade from an MP9 ?
When I played daoc, I used a one handed hammer from Galladoria. It wasn't the best weapon but it fit the role and style of play I liked with my champ. Because items were closer in stats back then, it didn't affect my overall performance that much. I felt rewarded that I had a usable and visually appealing item for myself.
How many times have you looked at weapons in a game and said.. "Shit, that sword is fugly, but it's got the best stats, I really wish this <insert weapon> had those stats." You can still make rarity an option and it doesn't need to be based solely on stats.
I'd rather beat someone based on better twitch mechanics and decision making. If gear helps or hurts me during the fight I'm fine with it. As long as we both aren' wielding two handed swords and I'm hitting him for 250 and he's hiting me for 1000. Those are the discrepancies that bother me.
Now say our damage is averaging 250 for me and 265-275 for him per hit/style? Not that big a deal to me, but I like to fight in groups anyways, I'm not a hardcore soloer.
I just can't understand why so many people are against options, choice, and a more level playing field on this site. Does close to equal competition scare them ?
I do understand what you say, I just don't agree with you.
Ofcourse FPS are never entirely fair either, but the reasons you mentioned are all technical. They have nothing to do with the actual game design.
I don't think the gap between haves and not haves to be lessened. Because if you lessen the gap, you'll also lessen the satisfaction you get from finding a rare item.
I do agree that there should be alternatives ways to obtain high end gear besides raiding, but I disagree that the effect should be lessened. if I spend a lot of time obtaining a high end item, i expect to beat somebody who spend far less time obtaining items.
Fine you don't agree with me, but let's be real and not exclude some facts.
There are FPS out there that have better weapons. You think a sniper rifle isn't a different type of gear upgrade from an MP9 ?
When I played daoc, I used a one handed hammer from Galladoria. It wasn't the best weapon but it fit the role and style of play I liked with my champ. Because items were closer in stats back then, it didn't affect my overall performance that much. I felt rewarded that I had a usable and visually appealing item for myself.
How many times have you looked at weapons in a game and said.. "Shit, that sword is fugly, but it's got the best stats, I really wish this <insert weapon> had those stats." You can still make rarity an option and it doesn't need to be based solely on stats.
I'd rather beat someone based on better twitch mechanics and decision making. If gear helps or hurts me during the fight I'm fine with it. As long as we both aren' wielding two handed swords and I'm hitting him for 250 and he's hiting me for 1000. Those are the discrepancies that bother me.
Now say our damage is averaging 250 for me and 265-275 for him per hit/style? Not that big a deal to me, but I like to fight in groups anyways, I'm not a hardcore soloer.
I just can't understand why so many people are against options, choice, and a more level playing field on this site. Does close to equal competition scare them ?
Well it depends what kind of FPS you are talking about. If you're talking about something like Halo, where the weapons are scattered around the map and players can pick them up, that's very different from how mmorpgs work.
Everybody can pick up the weapon, there is no drop rate involved and you don't have to spend weeks to obtain it.
If you want to beat someone based on better twitch mechanics and decision making, that's fine, but there are already plenty of genres which are like that.
the small difference in damage isn't a big deal for you, but it is a big deal for the other person who just spend weeks trying to obtain a particular item. If you spend significant more time than the other player, you should be able to expect to be significantly more powerful.
In other words, Blizzard has mastered the "bait & switch" scam; they lure you in with the casual-friendly, solo-friendly 1-79, and then switch the game at the end on you, hoping you're too invested in your character to pull the plug and quit. I appreciate you bringing that article to my attention - I was planning on getting Diablo III, but now that I know that everything Blizzard makes is designed specifically to lie to and trick players like me into becoming "hardcore fanatics", I guess I'll just take the blizzard home page out of my faves tab.
Seriously? Grow up.
If it's a good game, you'll play it and have fun.
Not buying a good, fun game that you will really enjoy for some BS political stance is really quite stupid.
But hey, it's your money and your decision.
I just feel sorry you'd let your bias keep you from playing great video games.
Generally, when you "grow up", you develop principles which are more important to you than enjoying a video game.
When you grow up, you develop principles that you stick to when you make important decisions in life, not deciding if you want to buy a video game or not.
The way I see it, World of Warcraft's endgame is there to give players who are truly dedicated to their character a way to keep playing that character while it gives Blizzard time to develop new content. You can't expect Blizzard to develop faster than players can play through.
If you don't want to play "hardcore" with your character once you reach the cap, then don't.
You're free to make a brand new character, there are 2 factions and enough areas,quests and classes to give you a different experience.
No, principles guide your life in every endeavor, not just the "important" ones, or else they are not principles at all, they're just contrivances to feel good about yourself.
I don't expect anything from Blizzard; as far as I'm concerned, they're sleazy used-car salesmen or drug dealers by their own statement of core design philosophy. The world is full of organizations, businesses and indviduals with poor ethics; I do what I can to avoid them. I certainly don't give them my hard-earned money.
Well it depends what kind of FPS you are talking about. If you're talking about something like Halo, where the weapons are scattered around the map and players can pick them up, that's very different from how mmorpgs work. Right but you and the idiot were telling me to play a FPS for balanced PVP. Getting the better weapon whether it is a pickup item on a map or not still shows the imbalance of weapons in a FPS. A sniper in a FPS has a better chance of seeing you before you see him while you are carrying your MP9. Does not gear there give him an advantage?
Everybody can pick up the weapon, there is no drop rate involved and you don't have to spend weeks to obtain it.If you want to beat someone based on better twitch mechanics and decision making, that's fine, but there are already plenty of genres which are like that. Yes and there are MMO's right now that rely on them. Even WOW does. Which is why I like MMO's with twitch based combat. DaoC, CoH, Aion (hopefully). If I didn't I would be playing a turnbased game such at Battleforge, Civilization which I have no desire to do. Not sure what your point is on this anyways. I've made if perfectly clear what I enjoy, are you arguing that MMO's do not provide this?
the small difference in damage isn't a big deal for you, but it is a big deal for the other person who just spend weeks trying to obtain a particular item. If you spend significant more time than the other player, you should be able to expect to be significantly more powerful. This is the telling statment for me. People want gear because they want to win at all costs despite gear being the ultimate decider each and every time. I guess that is the problem, I don't want my gear to define my success although I know it will affect it. Lesser players do not want companies to lessen the gap because then they will be exposed as lesser players. (not saying you in particular) This reminds me of P.E. classes that have their students jumping rope without a rope, so they never fail. People want the uber gear so theyre not put in a position where they will fail very often.
Well it depends what kind of FPS you are talking about. If you're talking about something like Halo, where the weapons are scattered around the map and players can pick them up, that's very different from how mmorpgs work. Right but you and the idiot were telling me to play a FPS for balanced PVP. Getting the better weapon whether it is a pickup item on a map or not still shows the imbalance of weapons in a FPS. A sniper in a FPS has a better chance of seeing you before you see him while you are carrying your MP9. Does not gear there give him an advantage?
It does, but there are no random elements or elements based on chance involved here. Everybody had the same chance to pick up the sniper and in many cases, a sniper is good in long distance where an MP9 would be better in CQB, so they are still balanced.
Everybody can pick up the weapon, there is no drop rate involved and you don't have to spend weeks to obtain it.If you want to beat someone based on better twitch mechanics and decision making, that's fine, but there are already plenty of genres which are like that. Yes and there are MMO's right now that rely on them. Even WOW does. Which is why I like MMO's with twitch based combat. DaoC, CoH, Aion (hopefully). If I didn't I would be playing a turnbased game such at Battleforge, Civilization which I have no desire to do. Not sure what your point is on this anyways. I've made if perfectly clear what I enjoy, are you arguing that MMO's do not provide this?
They may be there, but it's not a design philosophy I agree with. DAOC and CoH may have pvp where items have a smaller impact, the items obtained don't bring anywhere near the same amount of satisfaction as finding a rare item in a game like WoW. When I find something big in WoW, I know it's going to improve my characters abilities noticably.
the small difference in damage isn't a big deal for you, but it is a big deal for the other person who just spend weeks trying to obtain a particular item. If you spend significant more time than the other player, you should be able to expect to be significantly more powerful. This is the telling statment for me. People want gear because they want to win at all costs despite gear being the ultimate decider each and every time. I guess that is the problem, I don't want my gear to define my success although I know it will affect it. Lesser players do not want companies to lessen the gap because then they will be exposed as lesser players. (not saying you in particular) This reminds me of P.E. classes that have their students jumping rope without a rope, so they never fail. People want the uber gear so theyre not put in a position where they will fail very often.
They want it to be an important factor because they spend a lot of time obtaining it. They want to see the fruits of their labour. You want items to only have a small effect on pvp, and thats fine, thats your opinion. But I like to see a big improvement in power when I find a very rare item or an item i had to work hard for.
RPG's have traditionally involved gear and levels and dice rolls.
Online RPG's, and those on a massively multiplayer scale i.e. MMORPG's have generally speaking been no different.
Only recently, in the past few years have people tried to go beyond the bounds of these traditions, and nearly every single one of them has NOT been a raging success or even financial success, most all of them have failed.
Many that have tried to be traditional have also failed because they didn't understand what motivated differnent types of players.
The entire point of this thread and the linking of this article is to say that Blizzard made a very traditional MMORPG and they made one that really caters to their audience because they DO understand what motivates different types of players.
I like traditional MMORPGs. I think all these fpsMMO and twitch and rtsMMO hybrid crap is ruining the MMORPG genre.
Because they are not MMO-RPGs they are something different.
This website is suppose to be about MMORPG's and talking about MMORPG's and that implies that these games are Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games, and by being such I'd expect them to follow certain conventions.
If you want something outside of this box, then perhaps a traditional MMORPG is not for you, because levels and gear and desparity in PvP because of level and gear is part of the MMORPG formula, just like the solo-raid-group divide, it's an expected part and those of us who like traditional MMORPGs expect them.
We understand why they are the way they are and understand if we want to do things in these games there are certain rules and standards and expectations.
If anything, this was a good read. People can argue about whether Blizzard's game are hardcore or casual or w/e. But regardless, they make games that become popular, mostly because they are fun.
I don't think any reasonable person feels that Blizzard doesn't know how to make games, but its funny to hear those that really try to say that Blizzard doesn't know what they're doing.
I dunno, 79 levels as an intro is too much for my taste.
But Blizzard are good with making Blizzard fans happy, and I am one of the guys that liked Baldurs gate better than Diablo so I am not really in the group they are trying to get anyways.
The question is still if they can make another MMO as succesful or not, many of their best people have quited. Kaplan is good, I have to admit that even if I like Strain better (If he had continued as the head dev of Wow I would play it) but do they still have a good enough team and ideas to make another one? They dont even have the team that started making Wow anymore, Kaplan started a few years after the work begun.
One thing Blizzard is doing bad is creating new and fun IPs. 97 was the last time they made 2 original ones: Diablo and Starcraft. That is 12 years ago and after that they only used their old ones. And while the Starcraft world works well for a RTS it is not good enough for a MMO and I am not so sure that Diablo is either. Can they make a new world now?
I wouldn't be suprised if the next MMO gets a huge success but it is not like making Diablo 3, the fact that you did bestselling games in the past doesn't mean you will make a totally new game a bestseller too, particulary when few people who started the work on your last success still works for you.
And even creators of successful games messes up, EQ was the biggest game of its time but Vanguard have very few players.
They want it to be an important factor because they spend a lot of time obtaining it. They want to see the fruits of their labour. You want items to only have a small effect on pvp, and thats fine, thats your opinion. But I like to see a big improvement in power when I find a very rare item or an item i had to work hard for. Ok, well this brings up the question. If working hard in a pve environment netted you a rare item. Would you be opposed to pvp accomplishments netting players their own set of skills which made their character more powerful that you could not get through pve ?
Blizzard definitely knows how to make and market a game. Unfortunately, like Verant (and SOE after them), they have reprehensible ethics. Note how they are now being investigated in China and have had their operations there indefinitely suspended.
RPG's have traditionally involved gear and levels and dice rolls.Online RPG's, and those on a massively multiplayer scale i.e. MMORPG's have generally speaking been no different.Only recently, in the past few years have people tried to go beyond the bounds of these traditions, and nearly every single one of them has NOT been a raging success or even financial success, most all of them have failed. First off, define success. Is it turning a profit or meeting wow numbers? Also most restaraunts fail too, it's not necessarily because of their design or the menu, sometimes it's just bad timing, bad location, underfunded, and it's really f-kn hard to get a restaraunt off the ground. I would have to guess an MMO is infinitely harder. Many that have tried to be traditional have also failed because they didn't understand what motivated differnent types of players.The entire point of this thread and the linking of this article is to say that Blizzard made a very traditional MMORPG and they made one that really caters to their audience because they DO understand what motivates different types of players. Blizzard made a game in a market that did not have a lot of competition. They made a game that was casual friendly not only in playstyle but in computer specs to run it. Most players don't have top end systems and Blizzard was very smart in making the game accessible to low end machines. Blizzard also had a large fan base from numerous titles for the PC before wow came out. When WOW was released the average gamer couldn't tell you who Mythic, NCSoft, Cryptic, or other online companies were who were making MMO"s. Although Blizzard has done a masterful job at bringing MMO's to the forefront of gaming, they did have the advantage of name recognition and timing. That does not necessarily mean other companies have failed. I like traditional MMORPGs. I think all these fpsMMO and twitch and rtsMMO hybrid crap is ruining the MMORPG genre. WOW combat is twitch based combat as well. Getting CC off first, targetting correct players first, using the correct styles, spells, trinkets. At least that is what I define as twitch based. Any skills that require you to read,react, and click in a fraction of time to be successful. So by my definition you would be saying wow is ruining the mmorpg genre. Which I find funny personally because even in the pen and paper days, you needed to make a roll for first attacks, for agility, saving throws, and all that jazz. Because they are not MMO-RPGs they are something different. This website is suppose to be about MMORPG's and talking about MMORPG's and that implies that these games are Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games, and by being such I'd expect them to follow certain conventions. And that's the heart of the matter, you expect them to follow YOUR Idealogy on what they should be. If you want something outside of this box, then perhaps a traditional MMORPG is not for you, because levels and gear and desparity in PvP because of level and gear is part of the MMORPG formula, just like the solo-raid-group divide, it's an expected part for ME who likes traditional MMORPGs expects them. Fixed that for you. We understand why they are the way they are and understand if we want to do things in these games there are certain rules and standards and expectations. And the majority of us know that games like any busines will continue to evolve. We know that multiple styles of games will be created and companies will always try to either find their niche' or to cater to as many people as they can. Either way most of us understand not every game will be tailored to us, but it is not going to stop us from posting our views or opinions of things we'dlike in games. Regardless of the self-indulgent a-holes that try to shame us for doing so.
Blizzard definitely knows how to make and market a game. Unfortunately, like Verant (and SOE after them), they have reprehensible ethics. Note how they are now being investigated in China and have had their operations there indefinitely suspended.
Everyone of us would be investigated in China . Im as sick of WOW as anyone but no one can deny they take care of bussiness and know how to bait and set the hook.
WoW is the best Theme Park MMO ever made, and it is hardcore. Let me repeat that. It is hardcore. Or it can be if you go to raids.
I'm pretty dedicated and I'm still doing heroics and starting the 10 person raids.
I see the top raiders and they are more skilled than me, they know how to use the add-ons better and they anticipate situations, they are more aware of what is going on in a fight, they have more experience, and of course they have better gear.
My brother plays now and then, he never been higher than lvl 30 and have participated in a group a couple of times with me.
And all three.. the dedicated rider, the wanabe rider and the casual, enjoy the game.
This takes a lot of expertise and talent to accomplish.
Blizzard doesn't cater to the hardcore. They cater to the mainstream carebears who think they are now hardcore because they have the new purples first before Timmy, Timmy's Mom, and Timmy's Grandpa gets them. The raids in WoW are not hard. You want hard raids? Go play EQ PoT. Blizzard made a solid game that has swept through every household and gained a lot of popularity, however, just because it is popular does not mean it is great. Numbers are not everything people. Blizzard is short on content and short on producing meaningful endgame accomplishments. They give you an expansion, but not the whole thing at once, which to me seems a bit of a scam and trying to pull the wool over our eyes. What really happens when they release an expansion is they release 1/3 of it and release the other 2/3 in 4-6 month increments.They cater to the first time MMO player, they cater to the casuals, they cater to the carebears, and they cater to the 'hardcores' who have nothing else to play, but who will drop WoW once something more challenging yet solid. That's what no MMO has been able to do so far. They have yet to produce a SOLID game because they release too soon.
To simply put it Blizzard/WoW is a jack of all trades, but a master of none.
The term 'hardcore' doesn't belong in WoW. It needs to be replaces with 'dedicated', because in all honesty, what is hardcore about WoW? Raiding can be accomplished by everyone, not just the elite few. So I believe dedicated is the right word. Because you have to be dedicated in devoting your time in learning the strats and farming the gear. I've been doing 10/25 man Ulduar and I have raided in EQ and when comparing the two EQ was far more hardcore because only the elite could do the raids, and were very skilled with their class because in EQ you had to learn your class to actually play the game...not just mash buttons.
And despite their success, I don't agree with Blizzard's strategy, since hardcore is an ill defined term its hard to know what they mean by it. IMO, they mean hardcore PVE raiders, and those who enjoy arena style combat on a PVP side.
To me, hardcore means PVP that involves risk vs reward, real loss from losing, real impact on the game world and sometimes totally unfair combat situations. My definition isn't any better than theirs, just different.
Therefore their vision doesn't agree with mine, and of course, from where i stand, my viewpoint is the only one that matters.
So I'll probably stay away from future Blizzard games because they've defintiely found a pattern that they plan to stick with and its not a road I want to travel.
But they'll still continue to make a bunch o money. More power to them.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
actually thats exactly the reason why Blizzard and specially WoW are so huge
because they cater to the casuals and idiots, BUT first make them think they are actually smart and hardcore
kinda like apple
Don't make yourself out to be smart, after all it's a game. Grouping casuals and idiots together, and not starting your sentence with a capital letter, shows your worth Einstein.
Blizzard knows a lot about games. WoW is the best Theme Park MMO ever made, and it is hardcore. Let me repeat that. It is hardcore. Or it can be if you go to raids. I'm pretty dedicated and I'm still doing heroics and starting the 10 person raids. I see the top raiders and they are more skilled than me, they know how to use the add-ons better and they anticipate situations, they are more aware of what is going on in a fight, they have more experience, and of course they have better gear. My brother plays now and then, he never been higher than lvl 30 and have participated in a group a couple of times with me. And all three.. the dedicated rider, the wanabe rider and the casual, enjoy the game. This takes a lot of expertise and talent to accomplish.
Comments
Exactly!
You get my point.
So why is it important that you, the non-raider get's raid-level gear then?
I don't think he was asking for raid level gear (maybe he did and I missed it). There is only so much gear in 5 mans for a solo player to get. They add in new raid dungeons a lot more then they add in 5 man instances. That is the problem. The solo player end-game content is just not there.
Exactly!
You get my point.
So why is it important that you, the non-raider get's raid-level gear then?
You are purposefully obstuse and it's such an endearing trait. You know damn well that raiders don't need raid gear outside of raiding and yet they get to tromp around and make the rest of the game's content trivial just because of their gear.
No one NEEDS anything in a game. It's entertainment, not real life. Games embody everything that we WANT. Only people who try to use MMOs as a life replacement ever use the term, Need.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Not at all I'm sorry you get sick playing FPS games.
But don't expect me or anyone else to treat you specially because you are different.
The 2nd to last paragraph I highlighted is the only smart thing you have said all day.
Oh jeeze, I get to sleep better at night now, that an arrogant selfrighteous poster said I made a smart comment.
You are the one adding things into conversations that are not there. I never said I expected to be treated different but YOU seem to add that in for no reason at all, other than pretty much every post you have made is to state that you are correct and everyone is wrong. People are wrong for having opinions, choices, playstyles, and desires. Instead they should all just bow to world of warcrap or go play a FPS.
What is it about you two that you cannot understand what I say? I know that it won't be completely fair ever. Even in your precious FPS you have ping, lag, computer issues that affect what is happening. Wallhacks, exploits,, just look at any counterstrike thread. So even there you have forces outside your skill affecting the outcome of the fight. Stop with the elitism that FPS is the end all be all of pvp.
What I want is the gap between haves and have nots to be lessened. I want to gear my character up with items I like and not have to search for ONE particular item per slot in order to compete. I don't want to be forced to raid for gear so I can compete. There are times I will win or lose, times I'll be better geared and I won't. I don't have a problem with that. But can you honestly say that IF all things were equal - Season 1 gear could compete with gear now? And further, GEAR affects crit rate and hit rate in many MMO's now.
DaoC 8 vs 8 was a prime example. Realm rank mattered, it made your toon more powerful, but you had to earn it by beating other players. If you geared everyone to max stats, and kept them at realm rank 0, and let them use identical setups , the good 8 man teams would still roll most of the players because they worked well in a team. Fights weren't always fair, but teamwork mattered and until TOA gear wasn't the defining factor like it is today.
Earthrise is going to be a 3rd person shooter, I am looking forward to that game.
I do understand what you say, I just don't agree with you.
Ofcourse FPS are never entirely fair either, but the reasons you mentioned are all technical. They have nothing to do with the actual game design.
I don't think the gap between haves and not haves to be lessened. Because if you lessen the gap, you'll also lessen the satisfaction you get from finding a rare item.
I do agree that there should be alternatives ways to obtain high end gear besides raiding, but I disagree that the effect should be lessened. if I spend a lot of time obtaining a high end item, i expect to beat somebody who spend far less time obtaining items.
Exactly!
You get my point.
So why is it important that you, the non-raider get's raid-level gear then?
The game is designed to offer raiders instances where they get and require superior gear, which they get to wear everywhere in the game. The game could also be designed to offer solo encounters that offer and require similarly superior gear. The reason there are no such solo instances and gear offered is because those that create the game decided to exclusively reward raiders.
It's really quite simple: soloers would like a game where **they** have opportunities to get and need equitable superior reward. Why should we play a game where our playstyle has specifically been coded to be 2nd rate?
Fine you don't agree with me, but let's be real and not exclude some facts.
There are FPS out there that have better weapons. You think a sniper rifle isn't a different type of gear upgrade from an MP9 ?
When I played daoc, I used a one handed hammer from Galladoria. It wasn't the best weapon but it fit the role and style of play I liked with my champ. Because items were closer in stats back then, it didn't affect my overall performance that much. I felt rewarded that I had a usable and visually appealing item for myself.
How many times have you looked at weapons in a game and said.. "Shit, that sword is fugly, but it's got the best stats, I really wish this <insert weapon> had those stats." You can still make rarity an option and it doesn't need to be based solely on stats.
I'd rather beat someone based on better twitch mechanics and decision making. If gear helps or hurts me during the fight I'm fine with it. As long as we both aren' wielding two handed swords and I'm hitting him for 250 and he's hiting me for 1000. Those are the discrepancies that bother me.
Now say our damage is averaging 250 for me and 265-275 for him per hit/style? Not that big a deal to me, but I like to fight in groups anyways, I'm not a hardcore soloer.
I just can't understand why so many people are against options, choice, and a more level playing field on this site. Does close to equal competition scare them ?
Fine you don't agree with me, but let's be real and not exclude some facts.
There are FPS out there that have better weapons. You think a sniper rifle isn't a different type of gear upgrade from an MP9 ?
When I played daoc, I used a one handed hammer from Galladoria. It wasn't the best weapon but it fit the role and style of play I liked with my champ. Because items were closer in stats back then, it didn't affect my overall performance that much. I felt rewarded that I had a usable and visually appealing item for myself.
How many times have you looked at weapons in a game and said.. "Shit, that sword is fugly, but it's got the best stats, I really wish this <insert weapon> had those stats." You can still make rarity an option and it doesn't need to be based solely on stats.
I'd rather beat someone based on better twitch mechanics and decision making. If gear helps or hurts me during the fight I'm fine with it. As long as we both aren' wielding two handed swords and I'm hitting him for 250 and he's hiting me for 1000. Those are the discrepancies that bother me.
Now say our damage is averaging 250 for me and 265-275 for him per hit/style? Not that big a deal to me, but I like to fight in groups anyways, I'm not a hardcore soloer.
I just can't understand why so many people are against options, choice, and a more level playing field on this site. Does close to equal competition scare them ?
Well it depends what kind of FPS you are talking about. If you're talking about something like Halo, where the weapons are scattered around the map and players can pick them up, that's very different from how mmorpgs work.
Everybody can pick up the weapon, there is no drop rate involved and you don't have to spend weeks to obtain it.
If you want to beat someone based on better twitch mechanics and decision making, that's fine, but there are already plenty of genres which are like that.
the small difference in damage isn't a big deal for you, but it is a big deal for the other person who just spend weeks trying to obtain a particular item. If you spend significant more time than the other player, you should be able to expect to be significantly more powerful.
Seriously? Grow up.
If it's a good game, you'll play it and have fun.
Not buying a good, fun game that you will really enjoy for some BS political stance is really quite stupid.
But hey, it's your money and your decision.
I just feel sorry you'd let your bias keep you from playing great video games.
Generally, when you "grow up", you develop principles which are more important to you than enjoying a video game.
When you grow up, you develop principles that you stick to when you make important decisions in life, not deciding if you want to buy a video game or not.
The way I see it, World of Warcraft's endgame is there to give players who are truly dedicated to their character a way to keep playing that character while it gives Blizzard time to develop new content. You can't expect Blizzard to develop faster than players can play through.
If you don't want to play "hardcore" with your character once you reach the cap, then don't.
You're free to make a brand new character, there are 2 factions and enough areas,quests and classes to give you a different experience.
No, principles guide your life in every endeavor, not just the "important" ones, or else they are not principles at all, they're just contrivances to feel good about yourself.
I don't expect anything from Blizzard; as far as I'm concerned, they're sleazy used-car salesmen or drug dealers by their own statement of core design philosophy. The world is full of organizations, businesses and indviduals with poor ethics; I do what I can to avoid them. I certainly don't give them my hard-earned money.
RPG's have traditionally involved gear and levels and dice rolls.
Online RPG's, and those on a massively multiplayer scale i.e. MMORPG's have generally speaking been no different.
Only recently, in the past few years have people tried to go beyond the bounds of these traditions, and nearly every single one of them has NOT been a raging success or even financial success, most all of them have failed.
Many that have tried to be traditional have also failed because they didn't understand what motivated differnent types of players.
The entire point of this thread and the linking of this article is to say that Blizzard made a very traditional MMORPG and they made one that really caters to their audience because they DO understand what motivates different types of players.
I like traditional MMORPGs. I think all these fpsMMO and twitch and rtsMMO hybrid crap is ruining the MMORPG genre.
Because they are not MMO-RPGs they are something different.
This website is suppose to be about MMORPG's and talking about MMORPG's and that implies that these games are Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games, and by being such I'd expect them to follow certain conventions.
If you want something outside of this box, then perhaps a traditional MMORPG is not for you, because levels and gear and desparity in PvP because of level and gear is part of the MMORPG formula, just like the solo-raid-group divide, it's an expected part and those of us who like traditional MMORPGs expect them.
We understand why they are the way they are and understand if we want to do things in these games there are certain rules and standards and expectations.
If anything, this was a good read. People can argue about whether Blizzard's game are hardcore or casual or w/e. But regardless, they make games that become popular, mostly because they are fun.
I don't think any reasonable person feels that Blizzard doesn't know how to make games, but its funny to hear those that really try to say that Blizzard doesn't know what they're doing.
WoW doesn't suck, it's just not for every gamer.
This isn't news..
I dunno, 79 levels as an intro is too much for my taste.
But Blizzard are good with making Blizzard fans happy, and I am one of the guys that liked Baldurs gate better than Diablo so I am not really in the group they are trying to get anyways.
The question is still if they can make another MMO as succesful or not, many of their best people have quited. Kaplan is good, I have to admit that even if I like Strain better (If he had continued as the head dev of Wow I would play it) but do they still have a good enough team and ideas to make another one? They dont even have the team that started making Wow anymore, Kaplan started a few years after the work begun.
One thing Blizzard is doing bad is creating new and fun IPs. 97 was the last time they made 2 original ones: Diablo and Starcraft. That is 12 years ago and after that they only used their old ones. And while the Starcraft world works well for a RTS it is not good enough for a MMO and I am not so sure that Diablo is either. Can they make a new world now?
I wouldn't be suprised if the next MMO gets a huge success but it is not like making Diablo 3, the fact that you did bestselling games in the past doesn't mean you will make a totally new game a bestseller too, particulary when few people who started the work on your last success still works for you.
And even creators of successful games messes up, EQ was the biggest game of its time but Vanguard have very few players.
Blizzard definitely knows how to make and market a game. Unfortunately, like Verant (and SOE after them), they have reprehensible ethics. Note how they are now being investigated in China and have had their operations there indefinitely suspended.
Everyone of us would be investigated in China
. Im as sick of WOW as anyone but no one can deny they take care of bussiness and know how to bait and set the hook.
Blizzard knows a lot about games.
WoW is the best Theme Park MMO ever made, and it is hardcore. Let me repeat that. It is hardcore. Or it can be if you go to raids.
I'm pretty dedicated and I'm still doing heroics and starting the 10 person raids.
I see the top raiders and they are more skilled than me, they know how to use the add-ons better and they anticipate situations, they are more aware of what is going on in a fight, they have more experience, and of course they have better gear.
My brother plays now and then, he never been higher than lvl 30 and have participated in a group a couple of times with me.
And all three.. the dedicated rider, the wanabe rider and the casual, enjoy the game.
This takes a lot of expertise and talent to accomplish.
Blizzard doesn't cater to the hardcore. They cater to the mainstream carebears who think they are now hardcore because they have the new purples first before Timmy, Timmy's Mom, and Timmy's Grandpa gets them. The raids in WoW are not hard. You want hard raids? Go play EQ PoT. Blizzard made a solid game that has swept through every household and gained a lot of popularity, however, just because it is popular does not mean it is great. Numbers are not everything people. Blizzard is short on content and short on producing meaningful endgame accomplishments. They give you an expansion, but not the whole thing at once, which to me seems a bit of a scam and trying to pull the wool over our eyes. What really happens when they release an expansion is they release 1/3 of it and release the other 2/3 in 4-6 month increments.They cater to the first time MMO player, they cater to the casuals, they cater to the carebears, and they cater to the 'hardcores' who have nothing else to play, but who will drop WoW once something more challenging yet solid. That's what no MMO has been able to do so far. They have yet to produce a SOLID game because they release too soon.
To simply put it Blizzard/WoW is a jack of all trades, but a master of none.
The term 'hardcore' doesn't belong in WoW. It needs to be replaces with 'dedicated', because in all honesty, what is hardcore about WoW? Raiding can be accomplished by everyone, not just the elite few. So I believe dedicated is the right word. Because you have to be dedicated in devoting your time in learning the strats and farming the gear. I've been doing 10/25 man Ulduar and I have raided in EQ and when comparing the two EQ was far more hardcore because only the elite could do the raids, and were very skilled with their class because in EQ you had to learn your class to actually play the game...not just mash buttons.
WoW is void of 'hardcore' but full of dedication.
And despite their success, I don't agree with Blizzard's strategy, since hardcore is an ill defined term its hard to know what they mean by it. IMO, they mean hardcore PVE raiders, and those who enjoy arena style combat on a PVP side.
To me, hardcore means PVP that involves risk vs reward, real loss from losing, real impact on the game world and sometimes totally unfair combat situations. My definition isn't any better than theirs, just different.
Therefore their vision doesn't agree with mine, and of course, from where i stand, my viewpoint is the only one that matters.
So I'll probably stay away from future Blizzard games because they've defintiely found a pattern that they plan to stick with and its not a road I want to travel.
But they'll still continue to make a bunch o money. More power to them.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Don't make yourself out to be smart, after all it's a game. Grouping casuals and idiots together, and not starting your sentence with a capital letter, shows your worth Einstein.
/thread
Thanks