I can see the argument of groupers deserve better gear in a sense. It's much harder and it takes a lot more effort to plan and it's a group effort.
For me the solution to the problem will be that raiders/groupers whatever will have their rewards and soloers will have their rewards that depend on each other. For example, in raiding dungeons you find rare stuff that you put on the market for advanced solo content (crafting stuff, keys, what not). In solo content you find rare stuff for raiding and then you can put it on the market and make money that way.
My overall point is to show that solo content/raid content should have similar BUT DIFFERENT rewards. A solo person should not feel like they are missing out on end-content by not raiding they should see it more as a choice. Raiders should feel the same way but vice versa.
I guess the thing to avoid is the WoW feeling, that's why i can never re-sub in that game again, Raiding is not for me and there isn't even close to enough to do in the game to justify me playing it. For me and WoW, since i refuse to Raid, there's no point to play the game. A game should allow both i guess.
I'm essentially a solo player who likes to be in the MMO atmosphere. I like to go in a pub and do my thing but enjoy the atmosphere, at times (rarely) i like to talk to random people (i need my +23032422 confidence necklace first), and at times i go with friends and don't talk to anyone else.
For me when I played EVE i was in a corp/alliance in 0.0 but i essentially did my thing which consisted of buying/selling/production/and annoying the hell out of alliance leadership lol. I was good at alienating myself too. Just injecting some levity into this discussion.
Cryomatrix
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Originally posted by Greenie And that is your opinion, which seems to be the majority opinion which is why game companies changed the mechanics. It still is a dumbing down of the system just to make it easier. But to explain WHY it was like it was. It helped balance out damage at range and up close. If a caster could keep range, he could keep his damage output up. It made kiting necessary and good kiters were good casters. You might think that CC was a rat race but only the very good players excelled at utilitzing CC. All CC had immunitiy timers on them with the exception of interrupts. Casters were also able to use a quickcast skill (that was free) in order to cast a spell. That could either be a mez, root, or stun depending on the class you played. Via realm abilities there were counters to CC and melee damage for casters. Everyone had options to better their class but the end result always was : How good you were at your class. Warhammer's CC is insanely ridiculous and one of the many reasons DaoC'rs went back to daoC. Because after seeing what horrible CC reallly was, DaoC's Cc was pretty much the best system we have. The funny part is, you've already made a judgement based on a few sentences I stated, that barely touched on a CC mechanic. You haven't experienced it, you have no first hand knowledge of it and more than likely you've probably never even seen it in action for better or worse. It's no wonder I disagree with you so much, I will at least keep an open mind until I have experienced a gameplay mechanic before deeming it good or bad.
You are such an arrogant prick.
Just for example, WoW PvP at the real competitive level lives off of CC and diminishing returns, and I've always played melee classes trust me I know.
To me, CC is like being able to trap another player and prevent them from shooting back in a FPS game then just sitting there and mowing them down.
Only fun for the person doing the mowing down.
I'd much prefer a system of REAL skill where you opponent can fight back.
MMO PvP balance has always been a joke because you really can't fully balance melee and ranged. Ranged wins, hands down, every single time in the real world.
The expression "bringing a knife to a gun fight" holds true.
MMO's just come up with ass-backwards mechanics to try and balance it but all it really does is create paper/rock/scissors games that are more about your class and spec versus theirs anyway.
Hence, I play FPS games for PvP, all the fun, none of the bullshit.
There's something called PICK UP RAID groups for the casual gamer...Although the PURG isnt as organized as a guild that raids, it'll allow the casual gamer to choose if they really want that uber stuff...Honestly I dont know why solo players would complain, either join a guild or find a pickup group that is willing to raid. Its that simple. Solo players do it at a slower pace and isnt forced into raiding and thats what makes the game so much funner. Solo players DO "deserve" the same gear, its all up to them to decide whether to find groups to do it. Go at your own pace, and enjoy the freedom of not having to be forced into doing something you dont feel like every night.
You are such an arrogant prick. Just for example, WoW PvP at the real competitive level lives off of CC and diminishing returns, and I've always played melee classes trust me I know. To me, CC is like being able to trap another player and prevent them from shooting back in a FPS game then just sitting there and mowing them down. Only fun for the person doing the mowing down.
I'd much prefer a system of REAL skill where you opponent can fight back.
MMO PvP balance has always been a joke because you really can't fully balance melee and ranged. Ranged wins, hands down, every single time in the real world.
The expression "bringing a knife to a gun fight" holds true.
MMO's just come up with ass-backwards mechanics to try and balance it but all it really does is create paper/rock/scissors games that are more about your class and spec versus theirs anyway.
Hence, I play FPS games for PvP, all the fun, none of the bullshit.
Yes you might understand CC at WOW's competitive level, but you still did not have an interrupt code. And Range does not always win in the real world. You should probably study a little more military history if you don't think soldiers have ever closed the gap on range in mass warfare battles.
I prefer a system that is give or take. I can get locked down, I can escape, I can try to avoid lockdown. I can rely on my groupmates to stop me from getting locked down or help me once I have been. I guess I just want a more dynamic experience than you do. I want to utililize as many skills as I can, my groupmates, my intuition, and in as many different scenarios as I can.
I guess putting myself in a 100 ft x 100 ft box with other people just wasn't enough to keep my interest. And yes I can be an arrogant prick when assholes keep coming into threads telling them what they should expect from a game, what type of game they should be playing, and what is justified as a genre of a game and the mechanics that should or should not be allowed in it consistently as you have.
I may be a prick, but I believe in giving people the freedom to choose and having options to choose from, you live in your narrow view with the splinters in the windmill of your mind (had to do the carol burnett reference lol)
I never understood this elitism stuff in games, because somebody is a raider, they deserve gear better than somebody who prefers to play casually or just PVP? I mean yes, you may waste more of your life in front of the computer playing the game than the other person but because you choose to do so you earn the right to talk down and pretend to make a decisions for somebody else in the name of "Deserving"?
Honestly, I see your point, in some ways I agree, in some ways I don't. I was a "hardcore" raider in WoW back in the AQ40 days with DKP and all that jazz, I know the deal. But now I'm casual player, gaming maybe 1-2 hours max a night in various games (Mostly Planetside, EVE, or LOTRO whichever I'm subscribed to for the month). Maybe if I came back to a game that had "hardcore" raiding I wouldn't deserve it, ok. But that doesn't give a single player the right to tell me that they deserve it more than I, and tipically guild rights and raid rights state out front whether or not you will be eligible. But that's just me.
So according to your original post the only reason for 'raid' quality gear is to progress through the harder content of raiding. If that's the case then why does the end boss for a given teir drop any gear? If you've cleared the end boss then you don't need any better gear. So, the gear you get is just for greed. Which is exactly why they (the gaming companies) have you there every week. It keeps people playing their game and thus paying their morgages. People that bitch about some one soloing and getting good gear is silly. The majority of players are casual thus not hardcore raiders. Since a casual player pays exactly the same amount as a hardcore raider it would be so freaking stupid to ignore the majority of paying customers and giving the best loot to the 'hardcore' minority.
Here's a clue for you: IF YOU WANT THE GAME TO MAKE MONEY AND STAY AROUND IT HAS TO CATER TO CASUALS.
If you were truly upset about this then you should play a game that has an item mall. Then you can be leet but you'd have to pay for it.
In a video game, you "deserve" whatever is coded in a way that you can attain it. The point isn't that casuals/soloers want equal rewards in games that are already designed to exclusively reward hardcore players and raiders; we'd just like a game or two where casuals and soloers had eventual access to attaining the top content and rewards in the game. That way we can go play that game and know that eventually we, too, can enjoy the top content. Hardcore players and raiders can play other games, already in abundance, that are designed around their playstyle.
I think that's the way MMO's will eventually go, just like specialty cable channels now have eroded the networks market shares, specialty MMO's will do the same to large generic ones like WoW in the years ahead. The casual and solo player market is the largest subset of MMO players, so some dev will eventually look beyond their own personal bias towards raiding, and make a sound business decision to do just that.
I don't think we're gonna be seeing anymore games based around gear anytime in the next century. Diablo 3 in the other genre. And the clones that follow. No ones gonna do anything until Blizzard does. What ya have or is in dev is all your gonna get for a while. Unless your 12-15 with money to burn. thats My wild guess.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
The problem is that group/raid content has been implemented as a series of progressively more difficult/complex encounters, each requiring a correspondingly higher level of gear as provided as reward for completing the previous challenge.
Conversely, solo content is traditionally less well developed and consists of a series of grinds; be it reputation, crafting components, cash, whatever. The vast majority of MMOs don't do solo content well, which denotes a considerably blinkered approach on the part of the developers in favour of group/raid content. This is slowly changing.
As it currently stands in existing games, I would have to say that it is indeed the raiders that should get the better gear on the basis that the content designed for them is predicated on "gearing up"; they have to achieve a minimum level of upgrades from raid A before they can realistically tackle raid B.
Solo gamers don't have that problem since the content tends to be focused on patience (i.e. completing grinds) rather than on beating a challenging encounter.
But that's not to say I'm happy with this situation.
In my view, what needs to happen is a focused effort by developers to provide both solo AND group/raid content that is progressively more challenging and complex. When that happens, gear should be equalised dependant on ones progress through the content that is geared towards their chosen playstyle.
A group of people who have cleared "generic raid dungeon #4" (which takes x weeks for an average raid group to clear) and a soloer who has completed "generic solo challenge #4" (which takes x weeks for an average soloer to beat) should be at a comparable gear level.
There's no reason (epeens aside) why solo and group/raid players can't coexist.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
You realize you can argue the converse, that solo players should get better gear and group players get inferior gear, and you wind up with the same result since the content "separate".
That is generally a good indication that this whole thing is bullshit.
Really, this entire debate is off-base. The problem is that group/raid content has been implemented as a series of progressively more difficult/complex encounters, each requiring a correspondingly higher level of gear as provided as reward for completing the previous challenge. Conversely, solo content is traditionally less well developed and consists of a series of grinds; be it reputation, crafting components, cash, whatever. The vast majority of MMOs don't do solo content well, which denotes a considerably blinkered approach on the part of the developers in favour of group/raid content. This is slowly changing. As it currently stands in existing games, I would have to say that it is indeed the raiders that should get the better gear on the basis that the content designed for them is predicated on "gearing up"; they have to achieve a minimum level of upgrades from raid A before they can realistically tackle raid B. Solo gamers don't have that problem since the content tends to be focused on patience (i.e. completing grinds) rather than on beating a challenging encounter. But that's not to say I'm happy with this situation. In my view, what needs to happen is a focused effort by developers to provide both solo AND group/raid content that is progressively more challenging and complex. When that happens, gear should be equalised dependant on ones progress through the content that is geared towards their chosen playstyle. A group of people who have cleared "generic raid dungeon #4" (which takes x weeks for an average raid group to clear) and a soloer who has completed "generic solo challenge #4" (which takes x weeks for an average soloer to beat) should be at a comparable gear level.
There's no reason (epeens aside) why solo and group/raid players can't coexist.
This. If the solo content is just as difficult as the group content, then I completely agree. The gear shouldn't be exactly the same, but comparable? No doubt. My only problem with this whole debate is that, for the most part, solo content to this date in most MMOs isn't as difficult in comparison to group content, so it would have to be tuned up a notch.
Everyone is off base here. The problem is ACCESS to content, not this vs that. Hardcore vs casual is BS, Solo vs Raid vs PvP is crap.
The problem is that the hardcore playeers that devote 4+ hours 5+ nights a week have ACCESS to every bit of content in the game, while the casual player that can only play 2-3 nights a week for a couple of hours will NEVER have ACCESS to some content in the game even if they play for 100 years.
As a former Hardcore player, it really frustrated me that once I no longer had time to play 5+ nights a week, that I was never going to see certain parts of the game because the features of the game were designed to require that much time and were not built around the community helping each other, but around the Ego of each individual.
Not really, because then all the guys that devote their lives to raiding, who make very little or no RL income would not be able to get the uber items and feel superior to everyone.
I don't really like the idea of RMT since it pretty much forces you to pay out the ass to compete but maybe it will get some people off their asses and into the real world to feed their addiction.
You could also look at RMT as just a one time or occasional large payments as to frequent small payments though.
I'm all about casual gamers and casual gaming but honestly, you really expect to get the same reward as the hardcore players? Isn't that a bit unrealistic?
Blizzard doesn't seem to think it's unrealistic. That's why WoW is horrid.
Why should the "hardcore" gamers be rewarded with better gear then the average player? How is the average player with a life even supposed to see the end-game group content? Honestly, who cares who has better gear...this is one of the reasons I left WoW. The game has seriously turned into a loot fest on easy mode. You cant even do raids in WoW anymore unless a "uber raid leader" inspects you or you link your achievments before getting the invite.
I left to go to a game that focuses on player skill rather then gear and I'm having the best MMO experience I've ever had. Id much rather play a game that requires skill and thought to do well in PvP rather then hours of mindless instance farming.
This post basically re-assured me that leaving WoW was probly the smartest move I've ever made. :-)
Yes skill based games are awesome, but they are far and few between and they have yet to be perfected. Here is to hoping that DF and Mortal are footsteps in the right direction.
However, the moral of this entire argument is this...
Why does someone who spends less time deserve the same rewards as someone who spends more time and works twice as hard? That's like paying someone who does half the work as someone else who does twice as much the same amount at the end of the day.
You play 1-2hrs a day? Then you deserve 1-2hrs worth of rewards. You play 8hrs+ a day, then you deserve 8hrs+ of rewards.
There is no 'hardcore' in games right now...especially WoW...there is just DEDICATION. Whoever DEDICATES MORE TIME deserves the better spoils.
I'm all about casual gamers and casual gaming but honestly, you really expect to get the same reward as the hardcore players? Isn't that a bit unrealistic?
Blizzard doesn't seem to think it's unrealistic. That's why WoW is horrid.
Why should the "hardcore" gamers be rewarded with better gear then the average player? How is the average player with a life even supposed to see the end-game group content? Honestly, who cares who has better gear...this is one of the reasons I left WoW. The game has seriously turned into a loot fest on easy mode. You cant even do raids in WoW anymore unless a "uber raid leader" inspects you or you link your achievments before getting the invite.
I left to go to a game that focuses on player skill rather then gear and I'm having the best MMO experience I've ever had. Id much rather play a game that requires skill and thought to do well in PvP rather then hours of mindless instance farming.
This post basically re-assured me that leaving WoW was probly the smartest move I've ever made. :-)
Yes skill based games are awesome, but they are far and few between and they have yet to be perfected. Here is to hoping that DF and Mortal are footsteps in the right direction.
However, the moral of this entire argument is this...
Why does someone who spends less time deserve the same rewards as someone who spends more time and works twice as hard? That's like paying someone who does half the work as someone else who does twice as much the same amount at the end of the day.
You play 1-2hrs a day? Then you deserve 1-2hrs worth of rewards. You play 8hrs+ a day, then you deserve 8hrs+ of rewards.
There is no 'hardcore' in games right now...especially WoW...there is just DEDICATION. Whoever DEDICATES MORE TIME deserves the better spoils.
Here's the problem with this, just because one guy can't devote 8hrs of time all at once mean he doesn't deserve good rewards when he can eventually put in just as much time as the guy who can sit there for 1-??? hours at a time?
casuals aren't asking for equal rewards for less effort, they're asking for a WAY to put in just as much effort/time for equal rewards that doesn't require God knows how much time in one sitting. Currently, you have to raid or settle for table scraps.
Here's the problem with this, just because one guy can't devote 8hrs of time all at once mean he doesn't deserve good rewards when he can eventually put in just as much time as the guy who can sit there for 1-??? hours at a time? casuals aren't asking for equal rewards for less effort, they're asking for a WAY to put in just as much effort/time for equal rewards that doesn't require God knows how much time in one sitting. Currently, you have to raid or settle for table scraps.
Lets face it, it is harder to co ordinate a group than doing something by yourself. In a hard group or RAID instance, a simple mistake from one person will wipe the whole thing.
So therefor I think really hard group playing should be better rewarded than really hard solo playing.
As for the time, some games have both huge RAID instances (and group for that matter) and very small ones or even contested RAID mobs in the open world. EQ2 have this to mention one game and here can casual players jump in and get some good gear too. If your game don't have that support for casual players you might consider changing to one that has.
if you want the loot handed to you for no work then mmos arent the game type for you, try offline rpgs with cheats to access what you havent earned. kthxbai
It is not very difficult to be "hardcore" in games like WoW these days. If you get in a guild, and raid 3-4 nights a week for 3-4 hours, you can get all the best stuff, although probably slower than other guild members if the guilds raids like 5+ nights a week.
I use to raid a ton back in EQ days. When I started with WoW and was in a top guild, the amount of time put in wasn't that much. I even cut back and became more casual, moreso than a lot of the casual players these days and still got the higher end items. When I was raiding in WoW, I had friends who were casual and soloed a lot and they played 2-3x what I did. All I ever did was log on to raid for a few hours and chat with friends. They would be grinding something all day long, but were "casual"
It isn't really about the time, but the time spent with a lot of other people in a coordinated effort to achieve a goal. That is why people should get better rewards than someone who is soloing all the time.
I am very casual in MMOs these days, for a couple of reasons:
1. I have a busy life
2. no MMO has lit that fire in me I use to feel.
Even with a busy life, I can still put aside a few days a week to raid if I wanted to. Especially with this economy, staying home and playing a game is a lot cheaper than going out, hehe.
Time isn't really an issue, it is more one of effort. People don't want to put in the effort to play with a lot of other people to achieve something.
Casual =/ Solo...at least this is not my argument.
The way WoW works now is that everyone gets a trophy, and I mean everyone. Not just the top 10%, but 100% of the players will eventually get their trophy/purples.
That is my problem with WoW. It is too easy and does not have any kind of reward that rewards effort, skill, and time that gives any sense of accomplishment. The only thing that comes close are the proto-drake mounts which the only reason there are so few is because they cut off getting some of them, like the pale and blake proto-drakes, with the last patch. If they hadn't everyone would have eventually gotten one.
What I'm arguing is that there isn't a single boss or raid instance that only a select few of the player base can defeat without the rest eventually progressing to that point 1-2months after the 'elite' have. I put 'elite' in quotations because let's face it....there isn't really anything elite or hard about WoW.
Here's the problem with this, just because one guy can't devote 8hrs of time all at once mean he doesn't deserve good rewards when he can eventually put in just as much time as the guy who can sit there for 1-??? hours at a time? casuals aren't asking for equal rewards for less effort, they're asking for a WAY to put in just as much effort/time for equal rewards that doesn't require God knows how much time in one sitting. Currently, you have to raid or settle for table scraps.
Lets face it, it is harder to co ordinate a group than doing something by yourself. In a hard group or RAID instance, a simple mistake from one person will wipe the whole thing.
So therefor I think really hard group playing should be better rewarded than really hard solo playing.
As for the time, some games have both huge RAID instances (and group for that matter) and very small ones or even contested RAID mobs in the open world. EQ2 have this to mention one game and here can casual players jump in and get some good gear too. If your game don't have that support for casual players you might consider changing to one that has.
Ok, I see your point. But the one thing that bothers me more than anything else is that raiders affect my gameplay greatly, just because they choose to do something different. Lock raid gear exclusively to raids and they can raid 'til the cows come home and I won't give a damn. Although I know with next to 100% confidence they would cry up a storm if this happened.
I'm all about casual gamers and casual gaming but honestly, you really expect to get the same reward as the hardcore players? Isn't that a bit unrealistic? Here's a question for you: Hardcore raiders get the best gear because they do the most difficult and hardcore content: the raids. If you are a solo player who doesn't do raids, why do you need the same gear as someone who raids? You don't. Oh, I get it. You just FEEL inferior. Well, there is NOTHING in the game you can't solo that you are suppose to be able to solo with the best gear available from soloing. HINT: If you don't raid, you don't need raid gear to do anything. There is no group dungeon content you can't complete in a group while only having group dungeon-level gear.
There is no solo content you can't solo complete while only have solo-level gear. Leave the e-peen at home and open your eyes man. The only people who "need" the best, highest level, most uber epic gear are those who are doing the most difficult content.
In terms of PvP, well, I don't think PvP can ever be "balanced" completely in a level/gear based MMORPG.
This is just wrong on so many levels.
it is continuing the old paradigm that was around in the early days of Everquest that the only way to get the best gear is by raiding.
Raiding is not elite or hardcore. It is just player preference Solo, group and pvp are also player preferences.
While some games may be raid centric, there is no reason that every game should follow the same old formula.
raids are not necessarily more difficult. The level of difficulty of raid depends on the particular raid and game. Solo or group content can be more difficult.
if raid gear is useless outside of raids, why do players with raid gear have such a huge advantage when doing solo,group or pvp content? It is not because of skill. The raid gear is better than any that is available outside of raids and in almost all games the benefits of the raid gear carry over to solo, group and pvp play.
I'm all about casual gamers and casual gaming but honestly, you really expect to get the same reward as the hardcore players? Isn't that a bit unrealistic? Here's a question for you: Hardcore raiders get the best gear because they do the most difficult and hardcore content: the raids. If you are a solo player who doesn't do raids, why do you need the same gear as someone who raids? You don't. Oh, I get it. You just FEEL inferior. Well, there is NOTHING in the game you can't solo that you are suppose to be able to solo with the best gear available from soloing. HINT: If you don't raid, you don't need raid gear to do anything. There is no group dungeon content you can't complete in a group while only having group dungeon-level gear.
There is no solo content you can't solo complete while only have solo-level gear. Leave the e-peen at home and open your eyes man. The only people who "need" the best, highest level, most uber epic gear are those who are doing the most difficult content.
In terms of PvP, well, I don't think PvP can ever be "balanced" completely in a level/gear based MMORPG.
This is just wrong on so many levels.
it is continuing the old paradigm that was around in the early days of Everquest that the only way to get the best gear is by raiding.
Raiding is not elite or hardcore. It is just player preference Solo, group and pvp are also player preferences.
While some games may be raid centric, there is no reason that every game should follow the same old formula.
raids are not necessarily more difficult. The level of difficulty of raid depends on the particular raid and game. Solo or group content can be more difficult.
if raid gear is useless outside of raids, why do players with raid gear have such a huge advantage when doing solo,group or pvp content? It is not because of skill. The raid gear is better than any that is available outside of raids and in almost all games the benefits of the raid gear carry over to solo, group and pvp play.
Well said. The only point I would also like to add is that GEAR is not what makes an RPG, it's only part. This problem only arises in shells of an RPG that focus solely on gear-advancement nonsense and not more so on character development.
Originally posted by Retrad Casual =/ Solo...at least this is not my argument.
The way WoW works now is that everyone gets a trophy, and I mean everyone. Not just the top 10%, but 100% of the players will eventually get their trophy/purples. That is my problem with WoW. It is too easy and does not have any kind of reward that rewards effort, skill, and time that gives any sense of accomplishment. The only thing that comes close are the proto-drake mounts which the only reason there are so few is because they cut off getting some of them, like the pale and blake proto-drakes, with the last patch. If they hadn't everyone would have eventually gotten one. What I'm arguing is that there isn't a single boss or raid instance that only a select few of the player base can defeat without the rest eventually progressing to that point 1-2months after the 'elite' have. I put 'elite' in quotations because let's face it....there isn't really anything elite or hard about WoW.
I actually agree with you here but it is in reality a temporal issue. When a game first comes out the dedicated one will reach the elite threshold first and keep pushing the envelope. Also, to be honest, whenever something is so exclusive it won't remain that way for long in any game. However, In EVE I don't think many people can afford a titan BPO by themselves nor can many players actually afford a jump freighter for that matter. Too bad ebayers do with $$$$$. It's my prime reason for hating ebayers they make my accomplishments mean less. So if you want that elite feeling, go try EVE and level your skills for 2+ years and then buy a titan bpo (64 billion isk and an additional 36 billion in materials to craft it). I think there are very few titans in EVE and they are all clustered in huge alliances or savvy corps. By the way, a titan is primarily useful in warfare battles and is not really feasible for a single player.
I like what you say, but it's also semi not realistic and where does it end? Also being the head of a guild/alliance or whatever is a way to achieve that. I 100% agree with you on WoW being full of tier 1 purples for me had no appeal at all and I just straight out quit lol.
Cryomatrix
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Comments
I can see the argument of groupers deserve better gear in a sense. It's much harder and it takes a lot more effort to plan and it's a group effort.
For me the solution to the problem will be that raiders/groupers whatever will have their rewards and soloers will have their rewards that depend on each other. For example, in raiding dungeons you find rare stuff that you put on the market for advanced solo content (crafting stuff, keys, what not). In solo content you find rare stuff for raiding and then you can put it on the market and make money that way.
My overall point is to show that solo content/raid content should have similar BUT DIFFERENT rewards. A solo person should not feel like they are missing out on end-content by not raiding they should see it more as a choice. Raiders should feel the same way but vice versa.
I guess the thing to avoid is the WoW feeling, that's why i can never re-sub in that game again, Raiding is not for me and there isn't even close to enough to do in the game to justify me playing it. For me and WoW, since i refuse to Raid, there's no point to play the game. A game should allow both i guess.
I'm essentially a solo player who likes to be in the MMO atmosphere. I like to go in a pub and do my thing but enjoy the atmosphere, at times (rarely) i like to talk to random people (i need my +23032422 confidence necklace first), and at times i go with friends and don't talk to anyone else.
For me when I played EVE i was in a corp/alliance in 0.0 but i essentially did my thing which consisted of buying/selling/production/and annoying the hell out of alliance leadership lol. I was good at alienating myself too. Just injecting some levity into this discussion.
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
You are such an arrogant prick.
Just for example, WoW PvP at the real competitive level lives off of CC and diminishing returns, and I've always played melee classes trust me I know.
To me, CC is like being able to trap another player and prevent them from shooting back in a FPS game then just sitting there and mowing them down.
Only fun for the person doing the mowing down.
I'd much prefer a system of REAL skill where you opponent can fight back.
MMO PvP balance has always been a joke because you really can't fully balance melee and ranged. Ranged wins, hands down, every single time in the real world.
The expression "bringing a knife to a gun fight" holds true.
MMO's just come up with ass-backwards mechanics to try and balance it but all it really does is create paper/rock/scissors games that are more about your class and spec versus theirs anyway.
Hence, I play FPS games for PvP, all the fun, none of the bullshit.
There's something called PICK UP RAID groups for the casual gamer...Although the PURG isnt as organized as a guild that raids, it'll allow the casual gamer to choose if they really want that uber stuff...Honestly I dont know why solo players would complain, either join a guild or find a pickup group that is willing to raid. Its that simple. Solo players do it at a slower pace and isnt forced into raiding and thats what makes the game so much funner. Solo players DO "deserve" the same gear, its all up to them to decide whether to find groups to do it. Go at your own pace, and enjoy the freedom of not having to be forced into doing something you dont feel like every night.
Yes you might understand CC at WOW's competitive level, but you still did not have an interrupt code. And Range does not always win in the real world. You should probably study a little more military history if you don't think soldiers have ever closed the gap on range in mass warfare battles.
I prefer a system that is give or take. I can get locked down, I can escape, I can try to avoid lockdown. I can rely on my groupmates to stop me from getting locked down or help me once I have been. I guess I just want a more dynamic experience than you do. I want to utililize as many skills as I can, my groupmates, my intuition, and in as many different scenarios as I can.
I guess putting myself in a 100 ft x 100 ft box with other people just wasn't enough to keep my interest. And yes I can be an arrogant prick when assholes keep coming into threads telling them what they should expect from a game, what type of game they should be playing, and what is justified as a genre of a game and the mechanics that should or should not be allowed in it consistently as you have.
I may be a prick, but I believe in giving people the freedom to choose and having options to choose from, you live in your narrow view with the splinters in the windmill of your mind (had to do the carol burnett reference lol)
If I solo what takes you a group to beat, do I get double the gear?
Just asking...
I never understood this elitism stuff in games, because somebody is a raider, they deserve gear better than somebody who prefers to play casually or just PVP? I mean yes, you may waste more of your life in front of the computer playing the game than the other person but because you choose to do so you earn the right to talk down and pretend to make a decisions for somebody else in the name of "Deserving"?
Honestly, I see your point, in some ways I agree, in some ways I don't. I was a "hardcore" raider in WoW back in the AQ40 days with DKP and all that jazz, I know the deal. But now I'm casual player, gaming maybe 1-2 hours max a night in various games (Mostly Planetside, EVE, or LOTRO whichever I'm subscribed to for the month). Maybe if I came back to a game that had "hardcore" raiding I wouldn't deserve it, ok. But that doesn't give a single player the right to tell me that they deserve it more than I, and tipically guild rights and raid rights state out front whether or not you will be eligible. But that's just me.
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So according to your original post the only reason for 'raid' quality gear is to progress through the harder content of raiding. If that's the case then why does the end boss for a given teir drop any gear? If you've cleared the end boss then you don't need any better gear. So, the gear you get is just for greed. Which is exactly why they (the gaming companies) have you there every week. It keeps people playing their game and thus paying their morgages. People that bitch about some one soloing and getting good gear is silly. The majority of players are casual thus not hardcore raiders. Since a casual player pays exactly the same amount as a hardcore raider it would be so freaking stupid to ignore the majority of paying customers and giving the best loot to the 'hardcore' minority.
Here's a clue for you: IF YOU WANT THE GAME TO MAKE MONEY AND STAY AROUND IT HAS TO CATER TO CASUALS.
If you were truly upset about this then you should play a game that has an item mall. Then you can be leet but you'd have to pay for it.
I think that's the way MMO's will eventually go, just like specialty cable channels now have eroded the networks market shares, specialty MMO's will do the same to large generic ones like WoW in the years ahead. The casual and solo player market is the largest subset of MMO players, so some dev will eventually look beyond their own personal bias towards raiding, and make a sound business decision to do just that.
I don't think we're gonna be seeing anymore games based around gear anytime in the next century. Diablo 3 in the other genre. And the clones that follow. No ones gonna do anything until Blizzard does. What ya have or is in dev is all your gonna get for a while. Unless your 12-15 with money to burn. thats My wild guess.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Really, this entire debate is off-base.
The problem is that group/raid content has been implemented as a series of progressively more difficult/complex encounters, each requiring a correspondingly higher level of gear as provided as reward for completing the previous challenge.
Conversely, solo content is traditionally less well developed and consists of a series of grinds; be it reputation, crafting components, cash, whatever. The vast majority of MMOs don't do solo content well, which denotes a considerably blinkered approach on the part of the developers in favour of group/raid content. This is slowly changing.
As it currently stands in existing games, I would have to say that it is indeed the raiders that should get the better gear on the basis that the content designed for them is predicated on "gearing up"; they have to achieve a minimum level of upgrades from raid A before they can realistically tackle raid B.
Solo gamers don't have that problem since the content tends to be focused on patience (i.e. completing grinds) rather than on beating a challenging encounter.
But that's not to say I'm happy with this situation.
In my view, what needs to happen is a focused effort by developers to provide both solo AND group/raid content that is progressively more challenging and complex. When that happens, gear should be equalised dependant on ones progress through the content that is geared towards their chosen playstyle.
A group of people who have cleared "generic raid dungeon #4" (which takes x weeks for an average raid group to clear) and a soloer who has completed "generic solo challenge #4" (which takes x weeks for an average soloer to beat) should be at a comparable gear level.
There's no reason (epeens aside) why solo and group/raid players can't coexist.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
You realize you can argue the converse, that solo players should get better gear and group players get inferior gear, and you wind up with the same result since the content "separate".
That is generally a good indication that this whole thing is bullshit.
This. If the solo content is just as difficult as the group content, then I completely agree. The gear shouldn't be exactly the same, but comparable? No doubt. My only problem with this whole debate is that, for the most part, solo content to this date in most MMOs isn't as difficult in comparison to group content, so it would have to be tuned up a notch.
Though, in a nutshell, I completely agree.
Everyone is off base here. The problem is ACCESS to content, not this vs that. Hardcore vs casual is BS, Solo vs Raid vs PvP is crap.
The problem is that the hardcore playeers that devote 4+ hours 5+ nights a week have ACCESS to every bit of content in the game, while the casual player that can only play 2-3 nights a week for a couple of hours will NEVER have ACCESS to some content in the game even if they play for 100 years.
As a former Hardcore player, it really frustrated me that once I no longer had time to play 5+ nights a week, that I was never going to see certain parts of the game because the features of the game were designed to require that much time and were not built around the community helping each other, but around the Ego of each individual.
Would not insituting a RMT solve the problems
MAGA
Not really, because then all the guys that devote their lives to raiding, who make very little or no RL income would not be able to get the uber items and feel superior to everyone.
I don't really like the idea of RMT since it pretty much forces you to pay out the ass to compete but maybe it will get some people off their asses and into the real world to feed their addiction.
You could also look at RMT as just a one time or occasional large payments as to frequent small payments though.
Blizzard doesn't seem to think it's unrealistic. That's why WoW is horrid.
Why should the "hardcore" gamers be rewarded with better gear then the average player? How is the average player with a life even supposed to see the end-game group content? Honestly, who cares who has better gear...this is one of the reasons I left WoW. The game has seriously turned into a loot fest on easy mode. You cant even do raids in WoW anymore unless a "uber raid leader" inspects you or you link your achievments before getting the invite.
I left to go to a game that focuses on player skill rather then gear and I'm having the best MMO experience I've ever had. Id much rather play a game that requires skill and thought to do well in PvP rather then hours of mindless instance farming.
This post basically re-assured me that leaving WoW was probly the smartest move I've ever made. :-)
Yes skill based games are awesome, but they are far and few between and they have yet to be perfected. Here is to hoping that DF and Mortal are footsteps in the right direction.
However, the moral of this entire argument is this...
Why does someone who spends less time deserve the same rewards as someone who spends more time and works twice as hard? That's like paying someone who does half the work as someone else who does twice as much the same amount at the end of the day.
You play 1-2hrs a day? Then you deserve 1-2hrs worth of rewards. You play 8hrs+ a day, then you deserve 8hrs+ of rewards.
There is no 'hardcore' in games right now...especially WoW...there is just DEDICATION. Whoever DEDICATES MORE TIME deserves the better spoils.
Blizzard doesn't seem to think it's unrealistic. That's why WoW is horrid.
Why should the "hardcore" gamers be rewarded with better gear then the average player? How is the average player with a life even supposed to see the end-game group content? Honestly, who cares who has better gear...this is one of the reasons I left WoW. The game has seriously turned into a loot fest on easy mode. You cant even do raids in WoW anymore unless a "uber raid leader" inspects you or you link your achievments before getting the invite.
I left to go to a game that focuses on player skill rather then gear and I'm having the best MMO experience I've ever had. Id much rather play a game that requires skill and thought to do well in PvP rather then hours of mindless instance farming.
This post basically re-assured me that leaving WoW was probly the smartest move I've ever made. :-)
Yes skill based games are awesome, but they are far and few between and they have yet to be perfected. Here is to hoping that DF and Mortal are footsteps in the right direction.
However, the moral of this entire argument is this...
Why does someone who spends less time deserve the same rewards as someone who spends more time and works twice as hard? That's like paying someone who does half the work as someone else who does twice as much the same amount at the end of the day.
You play 1-2hrs a day? Then you deserve 1-2hrs worth of rewards. You play 8hrs+ a day, then you deserve 8hrs+ of rewards.
There is no 'hardcore' in games right now...especially WoW...there is just DEDICATION. Whoever DEDICATES MORE TIME deserves the better spoils.
Here's the problem with this, just because one guy can't devote 8hrs of time all at once mean he doesn't deserve good rewards when he can eventually put in just as much time as the guy who can sit there for 1-??? hours at a time?
casuals aren't asking for equal rewards for less effort, they're asking for a WAY to put in just as much effort/time for equal rewards that doesn't require God knows how much time in one sitting. Currently, you have to raid or settle for table scraps.
Lets face it, it is harder to co ordinate a group than doing something by yourself. In a hard group or RAID instance, a simple mistake from one person will wipe the whole thing.
So therefor I think really hard group playing should be better rewarded than really hard solo playing.
As for the time, some games have both huge RAID instances (and group for that matter) and very small ones or even contested RAID mobs in the open world. EQ2 have this to mention one game and here can casual players jump in and get some good gear too. If your game don't have that support for casual players you might consider changing to one that has.
if you want the loot handed to you for no work then mmos arent the game type for you, try offline rpgs with cheats to access what you havent earned. kthxbai
It is not very difficult to be "hardcore" in games like WoW these days. If you get in a guild, and raid 3-4 nights a week for 3-4 hours, you can get all the best stuff, although probably slower than other guild members if the guilds raids like 5+ nights a week.
I use to raid a ton back in EQ days. When I started with WoW and was in a top guild, the amount of time put in wasn't that much. I even cut back and became more casual, moreso than a lot of the casual players these days and still got the higher end items. When I was raiding in WoW, I had friends who were casual and soloed a lot and they played 2-3x what I did. All I ever did was log on to raid for a few hours and chat with friends. They would be grinding something all day long, but were "casual"
It isn't really about the time, but the time spent with a lot of other people in a coordinated effort to achieve a goal. That is why people should get better rewards than someone who is soloing all the time.
I am very casual in MMOs these days, for a couple of reasons:
1. I have a busy life
2. no MMO has lit that fire in me I use to feel.
Even with a busy life, I can still put aside a few days a week to raid if I wanted to. Especially with this economy, staying home and playing a game is a lot cheaper than going out, hehe.
Time isn't really an issue, it is more one of effort. People don't want to put in the effort to play with a lot of other people to achieve something.
Casual =/ Solo...at least this is not my argument.
The way WoW works now is that everyone gets a trophy, and I mean everyone. Not just the top 10%, but 100% of the players will eventually get their trophy/purples.
That is my problem with WoW. It is too easy and does not have any kind of reward that rewards effort, skill, and time that gives any sense of accomplishment. The only thing that comes close are the proto-drake mounts which the only reason there are so few is because they cut off getting some of them, like the pale and blake proto-drakes, with the last patch. If they hadn't everyone would have eventually gotten one.
What I'm arguing is that there isn't a single boss or raid instance that only a select few of the player base can defeat without the rest eventually progressing to that point 1-2months after the 'elite' have. I put 'elite' in quotations because let's face it....there isn't really anything elite or hard about WoW.
Lets face it, it is harder to co ordinate a group than doing something by yourself. In a hard group or RAID instance, a simple mistake from one person will wipe the whole thing.
So therefor I think really hard group playing should be better rewarded than really hard solo playing.
As for the time, some games have both huge RAID instances (and group for that matter) and very small ones or even contested RAID mobs in the open world. EQ2 have this to mention one game and here can casual players jump in and get some good gear too. If your game don't have that support for casual players you might consider changing to one that has.
Ok, I see your point. But the one thing that bothers me more than anything else is that raiders affect my gameplay greatly, just because they choose to do something different. Lock raid gear exclusively to raids and they can raid 'til the cows come home and I won't give a damn. Although I know with next to 100% confidence they would cry up a storm if this happened.
This is just wrong on so many levels.
This is just wrong on so many levels.
Well said. The only point I would also like to add is that GEAR is not what makes an RPG, it's only part. This problem only arises in shells of an RPG that focus solely on gear-advancement nonsense and not more so on character development.
I actually agree with you here but it is in reality a temporal issue. When a game first comes out the dedicated one will reach the elite threshold first and keep pushing the envelope. Also, to be honest, whenever something is so exclusive it won't remain that way for long in any game. However, In EVE I don't think many people can afford a titan BPO by themselves nor can many players actually afford a jump freighter for that matter. Too bad ebayers do with $$$$$. It's my prime reason for hating ebayers they make my accomplishments mean less. So if you want that elite feeling, go try EVE and level your skills for 2+ years and then buy a titan bpo (64 billion isk and an additional 36 billion in materials to craft it). I think there are very few titans in EVE and they are all clustered in huge alliances or savvy corps. By the way, a titan is primarily useful in warfare battles and is not really feasible for a single player.
I like what you say, but it's also semi not realistic and where does it end? Also being the head of a guild/alliance or whatever is a way to achieve that. I 100% agree with you on WoW being full of tier 1 purples for me had no appeal at all and I just straight out quit lol.
Cryomatrix
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