Saying that solo players don't "deserve" the same gear as raiders is a little arrogant, don't you think?
Okay, so maybe they don't need it. But some will actually give you the gear if you really need it and ask them nicely. Some don't, but that's a problem with the person as a person, not as a solo player.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only pull you down to their level, then beat you with experience." - Brad Slipiec
If we're comparing content, Soloers have way more content than Groupers, that's what I was trying to point out. (I use groupers because of lack for a better word)
im not trying to defend wow, because i dont play it anymore and dont particularly like it anymore either, but these days, a person with purple pvp gear will more often then not mop the floor with a character in equivalent pve raid gear. this is because of resilience. the second reason i dont think this is such an issue anymore is because i think that there is a big difference between raid and pvp gear. pvp gear looks like armour. pve gear looks like a christmas tree. In the days of T3 / T7, if you were a mage you could: 1-pvp and look like a wizard 2-raid and look like a rich thorium vein. and dont get me started on paladins. go kill some players, and laugh at the silliness of the raid gear.
T5 Mage set is the best look 1 imo. The rest are pretty ugly heh.
im not trying to defend wow, because i dont play it anymore and dont particularly like it anymore either, but these days, a person with purple pvp gear will more often then not mop the floor with a character in equivalent pve raid gear. this is because of resilience. the second reason i dont think this is such an issue anymore is because i think that there is a big difference between raid and pvp gear. pvp gear looks like armour. pve gear looks like a christmas tree. In the days of T3 / T7, if you were a mage you could: 1-pvp and look like a wizard 2-raid and look like a rich thorium vein. and dont get me started on paladins. go kill some players, and laugh at the silliness of the raid gear.
Lol paladins. Don't remind me. I quit after people QQ'd about retribution paladins being overpowered before the expansion came out, and when Blizzard actually listened and made paladins not at all worth playing. Period.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only pull you down to their level, then beat you with experience." - Brad Slipiec
If we're comparing content, Soloers have way more content than Groupers, that's what I was trying to point out. (I use groupers because of lack for a better word)
I understood what you were saying, the problem is end game solo content. Lets forget about raid level gear here for a minute. A soloer can do the party dungeons in a very short amount of time and get fully geared. Then what do they get to do? They generally add in a lot more raid content.
You can go level a new character, but that is just the same stuff over and over. Yes these are mmo's, and they want people to do things together. Expecting everyone to do things with 20+ people is another matter.
No, I don't think soloers should get the same gear as raiders, but I think they should should be able to upgrade their gear as much as a raider.
If we're comparing content, Soloers have way more content than Groupers, that's what I was trying to point out. (I use groupers because of lack for a better word)
I understood what you were saying, the problem is end game solo content. Lets forget about raid level gear here for a minute. A soloer can do the party dungeons in a very short amount of time and get fully geared. Then what do they get to do? They generally add in a lot more raid content.
You can go level a new character, but that is just the same stuff over and over. Yes these are mmo's, and they want people to do things together. Expecting everyone to do things with 20+ people is another matter.
No, I don't think soloers should get the same gear as raiders, but I think they should should be able to upgrade their gear as much as a raider.
It's strange though, what is a soloer going to do with better gear? Unless they add more content for him in the patches and expansions, such as a 1:1 ratio of raid dungeon to solo dungeon to group dungeon. That wouled be ideal. And scale the gear enough to say if a soloer wanted to start raiding, he would have to gear up in the group dungeons first, but people could jump right in to group dungeons with entry level gear from quest/drops/AH.
I will agree both soloers and small groups lack gear progression when compared to raids.
If we're comparing content, Soloers have way more content than Groupers, that's what I was trying to point out. (I use groupers because of lack for a better word)
I understood what you were saying, the problem is end game solo content. Lets forget about raid level gear here for a minute. A soloer can do the party dungeons in a very short amount of time and get fully geared. Then what do they get to do? They generally add in a lot more raid content.
You can go level a new character, but that is just the same stuff over and over. Yes these are mmo's, and they want people to do things together. Expecting everyone to do things with 20+ people is another matter.
No, I don't think soloers should get the same gear as raiders, but I think they should should be able to upgrade their gear as much as a raider.
It's strange though, what is a soloer going to do with better gear? Unless they add more content for him in the patches and expansions, such as a 1:1 ratio of raid dungeon to solo dungeon to group dungeon. That wouled be ideal. And scale the gear enough to say if a soloer wanted to start raiding, he would have to gear up in the group dungeons first, but people could jump right in to group dungeons with entry level gear from quest/drops/AH.
I will agree both soloers and small groups lack gear progression when compared to raids.
Right there is where I was going. I don't like your use of group dungeons, I don't think small groups, i.e. 5 mans are a problem for a soloer. I don't think there needs to be solo dungeons. I am more talking about the difference in groups and raids.
Op, get over yourself, you're talking about a computer game, not international business, politics or warring militaries; games, entertainment, not to be taken too seriously. It also happens to be the case that all gamers PAY THE SAME (unless it happens to be f2p or micro transaction); until mmo’s offer multi tiered subscription packages based on content played for raiders, casuals, and everone else between, have sex and travel, idiot.
My Colour Is Vomit green, I puke on the tards with stupid colour sigs. My symbol is ,,!, O ,!,, My enemies are any prat with a colour sig, a meaningless personality test, or a pointless list of games and classes.
Op, get over yourself, you're talking about a computer game, not international business, politics or warring militaries; games, entertainment, not to be taken too seriously. It also happens to be the case that all gamers PAY THE SAME (unless it happens to be f2p or micro transaction); until mmo’s offer multi tiered subscription packages based on content played for raiders, casuals, and everone else between, have sex and travel, idiot.
Calm down skippy. Seems you are the one taking it a little too seriously.
I'm all for the idea of using a "radiance" like system on Raid gear, just like WoW uses Resilience to distinguish PvP gear.
I'd be totally cool if the gear gained soloing and in small groups equalled Raid gear and PvP gear in terms of item level and numerical stats/values, but the raid stuff had an added "radiance" stat JUST for raiding just as PvP gear as Resilience stat JUST for PvP.
Would that make ya'll happy? Probably not, people would still bitch because their solo and small group gear didn't have radiance and resilience on it so they were "forced" into raiding and PvP to get the gear with radiance and resilience on it.
Ummm. Duh? You don't NEED resilience and radiance if you are not PvPing and Raiding you mook.
And as for the highlighted text... my girlfriend is coming back to the states from a month away in London on study abroad, you have absolutely no idea how much sex I will be having, you idiot. HINT: a lot
Can we please stop crying about raid gear as if it is something locked away in a vault being denied to casual players?
I raid twice a week for 2 hours each time. It isn't that hard and my group kills 8-9 bosses each week. If that isn't casual I don't know what is. Everything about group content is getting more and more casual with the exception of just handing the rewards to solo players for not engaging the content. Lets put this notion to rest that people are forced to raid or that it somehow takes 8 hours a day to accomplish.
Solo content is stupid easy and the rewards are comparable for the difficulty of the tasks. Sorry if the rubs people the wrong way, but that is just how things are. If you chose not to engage in group activities in a multiplayer game, then that is a choice. Games should not be rewritten to reward people for opting out of difficult content and reward them for completely easy solo content with items that are group level rewards.
It is funny how I never hear raiders complaining they don't have access to everything crafters can make or that pvp players get. It is always always always solo players wanting access to everything in the game as if they are entitled to it.
Really, this entire debate is off-base. The problem is that group/raid content has been implemented as a series of progressively more difficult/complex encounters, each requiring a correspondingly higher level of gear as provided as reward for completing the previous challenge. Conversely, solo content is traditionally less well developed and consists of a series of grinds; be it reputation, crafting components, cash, whatever. The vast majority of MMOs don't do solo content well, which denotes a considerably blinkered approach on the part of the developers in favour of group/raid content. This is slowly changing. As it currently stands in existing games, I would have to say that it is indeed the raiders that should get the better gear on the basis that the content designed for them is predicated on "gearing up"; they have to achieve a minimum level of upgrades from raid A before they can realistically tackle raid B. Solo gamers don't have that problem since the content tends to be focused on patience (i.e. completing grinds) rather than on beating a challenging encounter. But that's not to say I'm happy with this situation. In my view, what needs to happen is a focused effort by developers to provide both solo AND group/raid content that is progressively more challenging and complex. When that happens, gear should be equalised dependant on ones progress through the content that is geared towards their chosen playstyle. A group of people who have cleared "generic raid dungeon #4" (which takes x weeks for an average raid group to clear) and a soloer who has completed "generic solo challenge #4" (which takes x weeks for an average soloer to beat) should be at a comparable gear level.
There's no reason (epeens aside) why solo and group/raid players can't coexist.
This. If the solo content is just as difficult as the group content, then I completely agree. The gear shouldn't be exactly the same, but comparable? No doubt. My only problem with this whole debate is that, for the most part, solo content to this date in most MMOs isn't as difficult in comparison to group content, so it would have to be tuned up a notch.
Though, in a nutshell, I completely agree.
I think the solo content is often as difficult as the group content. If you actually solo it and do not get help from other players and you are using the inferior gear that you get from solo content it is challenging. In fact, group content is often easier for group players as the gear from group content makes the group encounter easy.
Solo content does have to be harder or easier than group content, what’s important in a MMO is that you should have to do some group content. At best group content should be at all levels of the MMO not just stuck on at the end. Two and three man groups are fine, as long as that’s not all it has.
The key is this is a multiplayer game, it not exactly stretching the boundary of our gaming experience to make sure there is strong grouping and solo content. In comparison solo content is easy, we get it all the time in solo games, I expect more from multiplayer.
There is a real danger the future MMO’s template is going to based on solo console games, it is already happening and we deserve more than that.
Personally I like the current system in modern MMOs where you have a progression of social interaction and thusly content.
You start out solo to learn your character and the game, you participate in small group tasks like dungeons or group quests in order to learn your role in a group.
You progress and the content becomes more challenging so the roles in a group matter more, you put to use all you have learned playing solo to help your team succeed.
Then once you've really mastered your toon through solo and small group play, you can do the more challenging large-group or raid content.
It's all about leading you to the social parts of a MMO.
IMO, you can't start and finish fully grouped and you can't start and finish fully solo.
One needs to lead to the other, and both need to be encouraged.
Solo needs to lead to group which leads to solo which leads to group ad nauseum.
Comments
Saying that solo players don't "deserve" the same gear as raiders is a little arrogant, don't you think?
Okay, so maybe they don't need it. But some will actually give you the gear if you really need it and ask them nicely. Some don't, but that's a problem with the person as a person, not as a solo player.
- Brad Slipiec
If we're comparing content, Soloers have way more content than Groupers, that's what I was trying to point out. (I use groupers because of lack for a better word)
Currently restarting World of Warcraft
T5 Mage set is the best look 1 imo. The rest are pretty ugly heh.
Lol paladins. Don't remind me. I quit after people QQ'd about retribution paladins being overpowered before the expansion came out, and when Blizzard actually listened and made paladins not at all worth playing. Period.
- Brad Slipiec
I understood what you were saying, the problem is end game solo content. Lets forget about raid level gear here for a minute. A soloer can do the party dungeons in a very short amount of time and get fully geared. Then what do they get to do? They generally add in a lot more raid content.
You can go level a new character, but that is just the same stuff over and over. Yes these are mmo's, and they want people to do things together. Expecting everyone to do things with 20+ people is another matter.
No, I don't think soloers should get the same gear as raiders, but I think they should should be able to upgrade their gear as much as a raider.
I understood what you were saying, the problem is end game solo content. Lets forget about raid level gear here for a minute. A soloer can do the party dungeons in a very short amount of time and get fully geared. Then what do they get to do? They generally add in a lot more raid content.
You can go level a new character, but that is just the same stuff over and over. Yes these are mmo's, and they want people to do things together. Expecting everyone to do things with 20+ people is another matter.
No, I don't think soloers should get the same gear as raiders, but I think they should should be able to upgrade their gear as much as a raider.
It's strange though, what is a soloer going to do with better gear? Unless they add more content for him in the patches and expansions, such as a 1:1 ratio of raid dungeon to solo dungeon to group dungeon. That wouled be ideal. And scale the gear enough to say if a soloer wanted to start raiding, he would have to gear up in the group dungeons first, but people could jump right in to group dungeons with entry level gear from quest/drops/AH.
I will agree both soloers and small groups lack gear progression when compared to raids.
Currently restarting World of Warcraft
Sounds reasonable..... so in essence raid gear should not be available for PvP outside of a raid dungeon environment. Sounds fair to me.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I understood what you were saying, the problem is end game solo content. Lets forget about raid level gear here for a minute. A soloer can do the party dungeons in a very short amount of time and get fully geared. Then what do they get to do? They generally add in a lot more raid content.
You can go level a new character, but that is just the same stuff over and over. Yes these are mmo's, and they want people to do things together. Expecting everyone to do things with 20+ people is another matter.
No, I don't think soloers should get the same gear as raiders, but I think they should should be able to upgrade their gear as much as a raider.
It's strange though, what is a soloer going to do with better gear? Unless they add more content for him in the patches and expansions, such as a 1:1 ratio of raid dungeon to solo dungeon to group dungeon. That wouled be ideal. And scale the gear enough to say if a soloer wanted to start raiding, he would have to gear up in the group dungeons first, but people could jump right in to group dungeons with entry level gear from quest/drops/AH.
I will agree both soloers and small groups lack gear progression when compared to raids.
Right there is where I was going. I don't like your use of group dungeons, I don't think small groups, i.e. 5 mans are a problem for a soloer. I don't think there needs to be solo dungeons. I am more talking about the difference in groups and raids.
Op, get over yourself, you're talking about a computer game, not international business, politics or warring militaries; games, entertainment, not to be taken too seriously. It also happens to be the case that all gamers PAY THE SAME (unless it happens to be f2p or micro transaction); until mmo’s offer multi tiered subscription packages based on content played for raiders, casuals, and everone else between, have sex and travel, idiot.
My Colour Is Vomit green, I puke on the tards with stupid colour sigs. My symbol is ,,!, O ,!,, My enemies are any prat with a colour sig, a meaningless personality test, or a pointless list of games and classes.
Regards Hexcaliber
Calm down skippy. Seems you are the one taking it a little too seriously.
I'm all for the idea of using a "radiance" like system on Raid gear, just like WoW uses Resilience to distinguish PvP gear.
I'd be totally cool if the gear gained soloing and in small groups equalled Raid gear and PvP gear in terms of item level and numerical stats/values, but the raid stuff had an added "radiance" stat JUST for raiding just as PvP gear as Resilience stat JUST for PvP.
Would that make ya'll happy? Probably not, people would still bitch because their solo and small group gear didn't have radiance and resilience on it so they were "forced" into raiding and PvP to get the gear with radiance and resilience on it.
HINT: a lot
Ummm. Duh? You don't NEED resilience and radiance if you are not PvPing and Raiding you mook.
And as for the highlighted text... my girlfriend is coming back to the states from a month away in London on study abroad, you have absolutely no idea how much sex I will be having, you idiot.
Can we please stop crying about raid gear as if it is something locked away in a vault being denied to casual players?
I raid twice a week for 2 hours each time. It isn't that hard and my group kills 8-9 bosses each week. If that isn't casual I don't know what is. Everything about group content is getting more and more casual with the exception of just handing the rewards to solo players for not engaging the content. Lets put this notion to rest that people are forced to raid or that it somehow takes 8 hours a day to accomplish.
Solo content is stupid easy and the rewards are comparable for the difficulty of the tasks. Sorry if the rubs people the wrong way, but that is just how things are. If you chose not to engage in group activities in a multiplayer game, then that is a choice. Games should not be rewritten to reward people for opting out of difficult content and reward them for completely easy solo content with items that are group level rewards.
It is funny how I never hear raiders complaining they don't have access to everything crafters can make or that pvp players get. It is always always always solo players wanting access to everything in the game as if they are entitled to it.
This. If the solo content is just as difficult as the group content, then I completely agree. The gear shouldn't be exactly the same, but comparable? No doubt. My only problem with this whole debate is that, for the most part, solo content to this date in most MMOs isn't as difficult in comparison to group content, so it would have to be tuned up a notch.
Though, in a nutshell, I completely agree.
I think the solo content is often as difficult as the group content. If you actually solo it and do not get help from other players and you are using the inferior gear that you get from solo content it is challenging. In fact, group content is often easier for group players as the gear from group content makes the group encounter easy.
Solo content does have to be harder or easier than group content, what’s important in a MMO is that you should have to do some group content. At best group content should be at all levels of the MMO not just stuck on at the end. Two and three man groups are fine, as long as that’s not all it has.
The key is this is a multiplayer game, it not exactly stretching the boundary of our gaming experience to make sure there is strong grouping and solo content. In comparison solo content is easy, we get it all the time in solo games, I expect more from multiplayer.
There is a real danger the future MMO’s template is going to based on solo console games, it is already happening and we deserve more than that.
Personally I like the current system in modern MMOs where you have a progression of social interaction and thusly content.
You start out solo to learn your character and the game, you participate in small group tasks like dungeons or group quests in order to learn your role in a group.
You progress and the content becomes more challenging so the roles in a group matter more, you put to use all you have learned playing solo to help your team succeed.
Then once you've really mastered your toon through solo and small group play, you can do the more challenging large-group or raid content.
It's all about leading you to the social parts of a MMO.
IMO, you can't start and finish fully grouped and you can't start and finish fully solo.
One needs to lead to the other, and both need to be encouraged.
Solo needs to lead to group which leads to solo which leads to group ad nauseum.
Your opinion is immaterial.