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General: Garrett Fuller: Do You PvP?
Dana
Member Posts: 2,415
In this week's column, Garrett looks at PvP. Why do people do it? What forms are out there? Do you do it? Check out his full PvP column:
The open war form of PvP is likely the most common in MMOs. EVE Online has giant space battles between massive corporations filled with total destruction. With groups like GoonSquad gearing up to wreak havoc on the galaxy and any opponent’s who get in their way. Where is the fun in open war PvP for the average player? For some being on the winning team is important. Others like the feel of an epic battle in space and watch in awe as the giant ships clash. The same holds true for large battles in fantasy worlds like the early days of Warcraft when Tarren Mill was filled with players fighting back and forth. There were no victory points or conditions; there was a street fight plain and simple. Some players like the mentality of being in the think of a fight. The action of an epic battle is what drives players to PvP.
Read more here.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Comments
I see you left out L2 open world PvP, but i do agree with most of what was discussed in that article.
I PvP only if it makes sense in the world/lore I'm playing in. I'm not a fan of "because I can" PvP, which makes up the majority of MMO implementations these days.
DAoC in the beginning gave a reason, my realm against yours.
WAR gave a reason (and having worked for GW for a year and played their TT games for over 11 I'm intimately familiar with it) but their implementation of how we were able to fight I found lacking.
I like to have a world lore based reason for engaging in PvP or else I just don't get into it. I use online FPS games when I just want to "prove" to the next guy I'm "better" than he/she is (as they rely on the hand/eye coordination of the player behind the keyboard and being quicker than the next person wins, just as it would in the real world scenario you open this article with).
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I PVP in MMOs for one simple reason: people make more interesting opponents than computers. People don't do the same thing twice (except the really stupid ones, of course). They don't run in a straight line. They retreat. They bring friends. They respec. They are always looking for an edge.
I occasionally read about a game (MMO or otherwise) that has a particularly good NPC 'AI', those brains that make NPCs play smarter and better. But this is a rarely a primary goal of game developers. (Afterall, who wants thier game to be 'harder' than the other choices out there?) Maybe it's a limit on the game engines, maybe it's a limit on the developer's imagination. Regardless, it it hard to argue that the actions of the Searing Gorge Fire Beetle (WoW) are much different than those of the Ekrund Nuglings (WAR).
But that's what I crave. A genuine challenge in the form of VARIETY. No, not 'more of them, with bigger guns, and more HP'. I crave opponents that mix it up. Real people are still the best way to simulate the play-style of real people!
I agree with most of what is put up there, however current MMORPG model offer no real consequences nor punishment for the reason and meanginless act of PK A.K.A ganking.
It is because this lack of consequence that the self proclaimed PvP fanatics simply attack other players one day, and once the deed is done they go back to being a good citizen after a slap on the wrist. This can vary however, since some games reward people for these acts while others impose punishments that are does not really do anything.
Don't get me wrong, I love PvP, however I dislike those lukewarm actions of PvP. If I decide to PK someone, I rather that I am given option of consequence. Someone might gather their friends to come after me or post a reward on my death. The idea here is that the current MMORPG doesn't allow the player to impose long lasting consequence or an easy accesss retribution. The fact is that in real life one cannot just simply log off when vengence comes knocking.
Most people who have lives leave out L2 open world PvP because it takes too long to actually level a toon up high enough to have fun in L2's open world PvP. I've heard its great though, too bad I'll never experience (nor will most of North America).
It is pathos we lack, and this lack of pathos makes the worlds we explore quite stale.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Antioche
Most important thing about PvP is definitely the goal, if nothing changes then PvP feels hollow and wasted. The example of Tarren Mill is an example of wasted PvP where almost nothing is achieved.
My first PvP experience occurred on a MUD (multi-user dungeon) called Lengeria. It was 1996, and the Godwars code had just gotten hijacked from Kavir and a rash of Godwars muds had begun popping up. My friend told me about it and I logged on using telnet on a 14.4Kbps modem. I spent an hour getting my hands chopped off and figuring out how to play the game and finally trained from mortal to avatar. Suddenly a monk named Ken appeared before me in a "blinding flash of light". Ken proceeded to beat me to a bloody pulp, mortally wound me, and then rip my head off. It was at this point in my life that I discovered the thrill and potential humiliation of RPG based pvp combat. Ken obviously was class, and had about 30 hours more play time on his toon than I did. He had a clear advantage over me, and yet the game allowed him to kill me because I put myself in a position to allow it.
Interestingly enough even back then there was a point to cutting another player's head off, aside from it being an exhilarating thing to chase someone down and kill them and watch them shout insults at you over ooc, or shout, or w/e. Killing another player provided status which in turned had benefits in the form of increased hp/mana/move caps, and being able to create better gear for yourself, etc.
For myself, and I imagine a majority of players, the best incentive for PvP is allowing character advancement/improvement in one way or another. If I get to have another 1k life by chopping that other guy's head off then you can bet that I'm gonna work hard at getting ready to kill the SoB and laugh while I'm wiping his blood off my claws. If I get some points that let me boost some character stats, which results in almost no improvement to my character's fighting ability then you can bet I'm gonna laugh at you and find a new game. This is Warhammer's greatest flaw. They think the realm abilities they currently offer are actually an incentive to play their end-game, but they're not. Neither is zerging about to take PvP objectives. In fact, the locking of zones and such is also really dumb. Trying to force large open field battles (zerg fights) is ridiculous for a variety of reasons, such as most people's computers can't handle it, most game servers can't handle it, the resulting lag makes the event obnoxious and frustrating to the players, and the respawn system that's in place creates a team deathmatch atmosphere where players just surge back and forth killing each other in lagging aoes. No one really wins, and most people walk away having sunk in large amounts of time with very little to show for it.
In DAoC I used to run in a full group of 8, which back in the day was called a gank group, or w/e. This was a lot of fun for a variety of reasons.
1. DAoC's realm rank system provided real incentives for players to continue playing the game because the realm abilities actually made a difference in PvP (i.e. having det 5 on a savage meant you were practically unccable, whereas no det = you're fuggered)
2. Playing in a group of 8 meant you could field a fairly balanced group of dps and support/cc which meant your group could fight other full groups and have a chance of beating them = 8v8.
3. As your group of 8 continued to play together, earning realm ranks, and developing strategies, it would naturally be able to win more fights, and even fight more than 8 players at a time and still win. For instance I recall multiple times fighting 2 or even 3 groups and winning the fights. This might sound ridiculous, but the difference between skilled players who were all paying attention, experienced with their class, openly communicating, and high realm rank with players who were not was vast. Sadly these days the crappy players have all been playing long enough that they are really high realm rank and are able to just blow all their rr abilties and such making them very difficult to kill for a single group of 8 skilled players.
Taking towers and keeps was only ever a tactic used to get enemy players to come out and defend their frontier. Unfortunately Mythic moved towards objective based PvP with New Frontiers, then proceeded to ignore the disappointment of their longtime players with NF and implemented a similar system in Warhammer. It's basically a sad joke, and I just can't imagine myself playing either of those games again anytime soon. Especially with Warhammer's roll system at keep takes being a complete PoS.
I'll take incentive-based pvp anyday.
It is pathos we lack, and this lack of pathos makes the worlds we explore quite stale.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Antioche
I agreed with most of that also. DaoC PvP was the best. Realm Pride, Relics, Keeps, Open field,, solo, duo, 8 man, zerg vs. zerg.
Three major problems with PvP nowadays.
1. Gear reliance. - PvE doesn't have to be all about gear. Just because you release an expansion *Cough ToA* doesn't mean you need to add in completely overpowered weapons/ gear. The look of them alone is worth getting sometimes. Think people won't chase a look or an item design? Check out CoH character creator,,, or WOW and their mounts.
2. Group PvP. Games today have not focused on pvp as a group. WoW characters are all able to solo, making the reliance on a group in a boxed in battleground or WAR's scenarios, less dynamic and less team oriented.
3. It's always two faction warfare. DaoC showed that 3 realm warfare worked very well in limiting population imbalances, because two smaller realm when needed could still gang up on the larger realm. It added to the immersion of it all. And who's heart didn't pound a little quicker when Sanaa Lathan told the predator,, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"
I hear that Aion is the closet thing to daoc rvr in a long time. I"m hoping so. If not, we'll see if Earthrise's resource and territory control is enough.
IF mythic would make a daoc 2 with Old Daoc concepts, the original classes only, with updated skins and a Old frontiers (larger, but not so focused on siege, different keep models that made sense and didnt' take 40 players and 2 hours to take,, they'd have a second masterpiece. Bring back fast-paced dynamic RvR and let go of this slowpaced stationary junk.
I agree with you on everything ESPECIALLY your last statement. One of the best parts about daoc pvp is how fast a group can move. Seriously, perm-sprint with the fastest speed in your realm was awesome. I hate hate hate how slow Warhammer is, it's like they want everyone to get stuck in a giant clusterf$&k. I hate giant clusterf$%ks, unless I'm hitting one when I want and from the angle I want. Mobility is such a huge part of pvp that is often forgotten in today's mmorpgs. AoC's mounts are awful, and while I like WoW's flying mounts, their pvp is all about gear, which I just don't care about, especially when I can get good gear in pve more easily. Anyway, I digress. Speed songs and such are great, especially when they affect entire groups. (But not more than a group, because then you're just a zerging pos.)
It is pathos we lack, and this lack of pathos makes the worlds we explore quite stale.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Antioche
I'm neutral on PVP's in MMO's. I tend to play on PvP servers (if it doesn't ruin the experience) because it adds a little bit of spice to the game. I also PvP if there is a reason for it, taking over a checkpoint or somehow else benefiting my character, my guild or my race. I sometimes tend to join the "PvP matches", if they are fun and rewarding that is. But overall PvP isn't the primary thing for me in MMO's, I trust FPS's to fill that niche for me.
To me, some type of player conflict beyond PvE is what adds to the extended life of a game. Adding something that allows players to compete against other players gets the adrenaline going. It is especially more so when there is a lot at stake. Like in Shadowbane or EQ where you either lost all your coin or possibly lost all your work in building a city or empire.
MMOs Played: I can no longer list them all in the 500 character limit.
PVP with a reason YES. Pointless dread style free for all PVP NO. DAOC has the closest to perfect PVP system ever designed. The model would work in any game. 3 realms in battle for territorial control where as that control had a direct impact on each individual realm. It's the only game i ever played where it felt like you were fighting for your side with an objective. Regretfully modern day PVP gaming culture will NEVER be what it once was simply because of the easy mode today's games have become.
I believe PvP is good when done with a meaning and purpose. Ganking without a purpose or principle is rather silly. However, if they find it fun, I suppose it is their way of playing the game.
Funny thing is, most PvP oriented players that are just out for blood are only half decent. Usually it is the gamer who master both PvE and PvP including all other aspect of the game are the ones who stand at the top.
I still am waiting for games that apply some sort of optional consequence system when it comes to ganking. Such as being able to have a system to post rewards to hunt down the said player with system guided tracking system for anyone that took the bounty. So far EVE online seem to do this pretty well, however, I would like to see more of this type of optional consequences when it comes to ganking. This will actually improve the game's community in general, whether it is for better or worse, at least people will be more immersed in the game knowing that their actions affect the community in a way.
I like to pvp for 2 reasons.
One it's more of a challenge going against other players because you don't know their gear or their play style so there is no single strategy that works every time against every class.
Two, raiding is boring to me. Doing the same dungeon 4 days a week to "maybe" get a piece of gear, where I can do a battleground and get gear almost as good is the better alternative for me. That way if I want to watch a movie, tv show, or play another video game or just do something else, I can and not have to feel obligated to a 'second job' of raiding.
Just to offer another point of view; I never pvp. Never. I played Wow for four years, turned down challenges from others dozens of levels below mine, refused duels even from guildmates, etc.
For me, I don't feel good about winning a fight with another player, and I certainly don't feel good about losing one. And, while I'm not trying to sway anyone's opinion, to me, open world pvp'ing is the equivalent of online bullying.
For those that enjoy pvp, have fun. Personally, I'd like to see at least one MMO where there was no form of PvP whatsoever.
I definitely agree with you. I prefer to play browser games while working..
hehe...seems very popular just jon woods said in previous discussion. here I found top 10 pvp fighting browser based games http://www.playbbg.com/features/top-pvp-fighting-browser-games.html
I am not sure if i broke the forum rules, anyway, i just want to say something, among them, i prefer to play disciplemmo on playbbg and I will make a review later for the guys.
I think this mentality is one of the problems with PVP and also a bit off topic but PVE as well. The large scale battles that break out between players is fun. Why does there have to be any kind of a reward other than enjoying a night of good PVP?
I think I'm a minority when I prefer to take away memories of a good night of PVP or even a long night of corpse runs (good old EQ1 days playing a cleric) after a raid wipe instead of "look at what I got last night". The memories I'll take with me but the digital items will be gone when the next expansion comes out or I move on to the next game.
Basically, I PVP for the increased difficulty of playing another player not the computer's AI and for the rare chance that some large scale battle may break out in the middle of nowhere just because it's fun.
Absolutely agree with what you say. Good post. Sums up my feelings about PVP exactly.
For me it hasd to be meaningful. Every guild I have ever been in, I have fought to defend the "kingdom", or "fight the good fight".
It makes up for the lack of ability to do so in real life against the real villians- Politicians, Financial institutions, Wal-Mart... ect...
Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.
Euripides (484 BC - 406 BC)
I PvP to piss people off, its fun.
http://www.facebook.com/DEATHREAT
PvP is the only fun feature of MMOs as far as I'm concerned.
Everything else is simply the addictive nature that keeps you pulled in. I can't imagine anyone actually preferring to fight MMO AI which is decades behind the times. Why do I PvE? To improve my character for PvP. On the extremely rare ocassion that I find an MMO with a good story, then I'll also enjoy that, but it is rare and since MMOs never have had good story-telling (progressing), that can only last for so long. They can make up for it like Blizzard with massive merchandising in comics, novels, movies and other properties, or they can just let 1980s text and speech bubbles solely progress the story.
The competitive aspect of games are my favorite. In fact, one my favorite times playing PvE was when I was in the 7th top guild in the world competiting for the first kills of bosses in Naxxramas 1.0 in WoW. That's why I spend most of my time playing games online. Competition. I have more fun shooting or hacking others in multi-player than I do in a single-player game. It's even more fun when you're coordinating with team mates. The field is ever changing. There's always opponents with a new strategy that you have to adjust yours to counter.
The only downside of PvP MMOs is the community. If you add the highly competitive nature of say an FPS where people get pumped up against live opponents and get angry over failing, then add the aspects of MMOs where people are intimately attached to their characters that they put so much time into and you have a recipe for unbridled anger and insult throwing for a game they take all too seriously.
Yeah because the average joe citizens who get "walked all over" by the elite aren't just as bad of people... Oh wait, they are, just without the power and we can be thankful for that.
Heh seems the author is well aware of what's going on. His wording is pretty mild though, compared to the harsh reality of why people PvP, I guess he didn't want to 'insult' too many players.
It seems life these days is all about achievements. MMO's are the pinnacle of our huge brain power to further stimulate our materialistic needs. I wonder how much all those accounts are worth if they could be called 'property', you propably can call them that already. Ever felt sad when your character got deleted from an old game that you haven't played for three years and you were never planning to play it again?
My point being: A lot of people say PvP is the most fun part of a MMO. Their political argument being that it gives the thrill that PvE lacks. Then why, do developers need to boost the 'fun' factor in PvP by giving out rewards for each kill? To feed our materialistic needs? Shouldn't they boost the fun of PvE instead? 'Murder others to get money' is a pretty wrong mentality. I guess that in the criminal world among others view other people as possible profit opportunities, now it's the case in MMO's too. I guess that's what a MMO is all about. 'The journey is the reward' is being busted left and right by MMO's, it's all about that shining armor that needs 10000 kills to buy. Oh well, better start killing players that barely steer better than a computer.
PvP should be there for thrills and plain fun. If I had to choose, I would choose the streetfights in Tarren Mill, although I've never been in WoW for longer than two game hours total. Plain old fun. Why do we fight? Because it's fun. At least I hope that it was their reasoning, not to humiliate other people when given the chance.
Mmorpgs at the very core are individual base driven games. You pick the class you want to play. The gear you want to receive. The enchantments are for the most part left up to the players own hands in the end. Everything about the class you are playing now a days are completely customizable.
Pvp offers what Pve raiding never will. The ability the "play when you want". With Pve raiding you always end up waiting for something. A friend to log on. The time when everyone agrees to show up for the Raid. The gear that the bosses never seem to want to drop that you want. Pve is a waiting game. The alternative to this and "Play Now" aspect to most mmorpgs is PVP. Where you don't have to wait for anything other then maybe a queue for a scenario (aka Battleground). Also with Pvp you have the power to choose what gear you want and when you want to get that gear.
Another thing to note is not long ago Mmorpgs where not really in the now and the hype for them was at a low so, people mostly played Rts and Fps games. These games are nothing but Pvp driven. Many games like these have community base driven leagues like Cyberathlete Amature League (Cal for short). What Cal brought to the gaming community was the ability to measure skilled players to next to one another and to see who is the best. Before Fps what a Rank system or a stats board these where controlled by community fan base and gained popularity. At the very highlight of these games those being Battlefield 2, Counter Strike source, Starcraft, Dota and Warcraft 3 Blizzard Entertainment did what no other company could do in the past. They attracted the mass based Rtser and Fpser with the mmorpg World of Warcraft. At about this moment in time most fps like myself where starting to get a bit tired of the whole spawn and die atmosphere of fps where you didn't receive anything for your time playing other then a weapon to unlock and a rank title next to it. The fame came from only your peers and co-players "This guy is amazing". Other then that it started to feel a bit empty to keep playing those games. Well for me this is what i started to view these games as.
Mmorpgs give you the power to improve your character. You always get stronger and stronger and the play style always ends up changing do to hungry crazed balanced driven developers. In a way this is a good thing. They keep the game fresh and new. However sometime they just do it way too much. Take the Paladin class in World of Warcraft. Retribution for the longest time was the worst spec to play in the game next to how bad Feral Cat is for Druids. Up till Wrath of the Lich King Retribution never did every well except in Battleground Pvp content and world Pvp. Not even after about 6 to 7 months after the next xpac was released Blizzard decide to take the spec and change the whole combat system that have never ever been changed since before the release of the game and remove the burst damage nature of the spec. As you can see sometimes changes things isn't always for the best.
However with World of Warcraft it still brought the Battlegroup pvp element and the esport nature of arena that still attracks most rtsers and Fpser alike. They also have a system to rate how skilled someone is with personal rating which in a way is good and many others in my opinion is very bad for the game. We all know there are balance problems in all mmorpgs when it comes to classes and when you attach how a player receive items with a rank system such as that you end up with more imbalance issues then you can wave a stick at.
At the very core why people love to pvp is do to our human nature. We are a war driven race. We love confrontation even if you don't like to admit. What Pvp does for us is to feed that craving for power, blood, honor, respect so on and so forth and no one actually really gets hurt but their pride in the mmorpg.
Personally why i enjoy pvp so much is it gives me all the reasons i listed above and improves my skill with the class i am playing and teaches me with other classes use as spells/abilities and why they use them without having to play the same class has them.