I don't PVP at all. I used to in all kinds of different genres (including online chess) but I soon found that most PVP is nothing more than fancy "rock, paper, scissors" and is usually rife with cheaters. No thanks.
I now play games exclusively for story and immersion. I prefer the cooperative aspect of online games than pure PVP.
DAoC "open field" was nothing more than one group running around all stuck together until they accidently ran into another group of players all stuck to one guy running them around. NF brought way more to that game, and I hope devs will make more games with objectives like keep and relic takes and realm pride. running around aimlessly what not what you said in your article (realm pride) it was unorganized choas.
When I said i had "time", i meant virtual time, i got no RL "time" for you.
I see you left out L2 open world PvP, but i do agree with most of what was discussed in that article.
And left out Darkfall which is all about the PVP happening anywhere for no reason and reasons created by the players. Like EVE online when it released Darkfall has still got some way to go to refine it and polish it and expand it.
DAoC "open field" was nothing more than one group running around all stuck together until they accidently ran into another group of players all stuck to one guy running them around. NF brought way more to that game, and I hope devs will make more games with objectives like keep and relic takes and realm pride. running around aimlessly what not what you said in your article (realm pride) it was unorganized choas.
If you never ran in a good group yea it could have been that. Me and others would find places to hide and ambush. There wasn't any accident about it. We'd bait with keep takes and bait people with kills in DF or the frontier. Sorry you ran in bad stupid groups, that just ran down the road or along the zone wall from PK to PK.
NF brought roaming RvR to a keep where you sat still plucking away with trebs and ranged spells until a door fell. Generally the groups with most healers and ranged players won.
The Maps turned RvR into easyport mode so you knew where the fights were. There was no more guerilla warfare tactics because as soon as you killed someone your ass lit up like a big beacon. It even let people know if you were a small force or a big force by the size of icon.
In the old days you had reports that went only to the guild who owned the keep. It would tell you numbers of attackers, but you could also fool that report by keeping the main force backed away if you wanted. Strategy not just numbers in OF.
Was their a lot of unorganized chaos in OF ? Sure , but that didn't change with NF it got worse,, because all people did was head to the keep with the big ass icon and zerg each other down. Tell them to run past the bananachs and you'd get a WHERE??? in chat because people no longer needed to know the location of anything. It dumbed down the whole realm warfare experience which is why so many people quit and only the hardcores stayed for so long. The population now is rising because WAR was such an utter failure.
But yea, somebody needs to capitalize on the RvR experience again.
I've been an MMORPG.com reader for a long time. I actually had an account that I hadn't logged into for a long time because, quite frankly, I've given up on the idea of internet debates, and am happy to read both sides of the arguement from others' points of view.
However, I felt compelled to create a new account (since I've lost the old one and don't have my old e-mail anymore) to write this post.
Firstly, let me just register my shock at such a horrible article written by a supposed MMO vet. who has years of experience as a professional MMORPG correspondent. This has to be the most biased, ignorant and one-sided (I guess biased covers that already) article I've read on this or any subject pertaining to MMORPG's, and shows a complete lack of, not only nuance, but also journalistic professionalism on the part of the writer.
Looks like you picked someone who hates PvP and wouldn't care two hoots if PvP was removed forever from every MMO out there, to write an article about why people might like PvP, which is why it is full of the same, tired cliche's regularly parroted by those who have never PvP'd, don't enjoy it and don't see the point in it or of it. Although based on a lot of the posts I've read on these forums, this attitude is reflective of the growing ignorance that people have towards and about PvP, so I'm sure it will go down a treat with many of your readers.
The writer begins by comparing PvP to a street fight, complete with blood, viciousness and the desire to hurt another human being. Sensationalistic? Perhaps. But this opening paragraph, a clear display of the writer's attitude towards PvP, sets the tone of sheer ignorance displayed throughout the rest of the article. From a hackneyed and limited eye cast open open warfare, to a denigration of the characters of people who enjoy PvP as simply out to grief others, and a similarly sweeping generalisation about how PvP servers and games are designed to foster this attitude. This is followed by a pathetic overview of objective-based PvP that looks at nothing more than the shallowest aspects of the same. The closing paragraph too has little to say beyond sprouting more generic nonsense about subjectivity and how devlopers aren't paying attention to why people PvP when they implement this in a game.
I'm frankly DISGUSTED by this ridiculous excuse for journalism. It seems to me that Mr. Fuller had a deadline to meet to submit an article, couldn't think of anything intelligent or meaningful to say and mashed together this article at the last minute. How much research, if any, did you do Mr. Fuller? If you had called this article "the ugly side of PvP" and claimed from the outset that you were focussing on griefers (who I'm not denying exist) then perhaps I could considered this article to have a hint of legitimacy, though even as an article on that subject, it is pretty bare bones.
I don't PvP to grief, or to dance on someone's corpse, or to call people carebears. I PvP because I like the challenge. I like the idea of testing my skills and intelligent against another person who doing their best to beat me. I enjoy the exhiliration of winning a PvP fight and knowing that I didn't just figure after 1000 attempts the way some pre-programmed AI is going to react everytime. If I wanted that I would play single player games, which put the emphasis on that experience. (and I do play and ENJOY single player games also). I also appreciate when a skilled opponent beats me, and does something I didn't anticipate. I like going, wow, that guy is good. I like the challange of improving my own play so that I can maybe beat them the next time I encounter that player. I like knowing that each time I go up against the same opponent, they are thinking about my style of play, my strenghts and weaknesses and adapting their own play to counter it.
In Warfare based PvP, I enjoy the feeling of being part of a massive battle. Of just being ONE soldier among a thousand. I like the idea that this ONE soldier can make a difference if they try hard enough. I'm sorry, but for ME, this experience is just not the same when it's 1000 players against some ridiculously overpowered monster, that is challenging, not because of their intelligence, but because of some pre-programmed sequence that the players need to discover to meet it. Sure, solving puzzles is fun too, but it's a different kind of fun, a different kind of challenge.
I like the idea, of being a general or commander in an army. Of having a group of players who want to win and are willing to coordinate and take orders to do it. I like the idea of coming up with a strategy, of studying the terrain and figuring out the best ambush points. I like the logistics of a running a 200 player keep siege. Of organising all those players to work together against others who are doing the same. Of constantly striving for perfection. I like being part of a group that is dominating and rolling all opposition in it's path, I equally like the idea of being the underdog, of being the race or team that is heavily out numbered, and fighting 300 style in a lost cause, only to make the enemy pay a heavy price for every inch of ground gained.
I also like the competition aspect, the idea of creating a legend. I want people to know who I am on a server. "Hey that Klazart dude is pretty good, I'd like to be on his team." I like the idea of the opposition trembling when my team and I enter the battlefield, cause they know it's going to be a tough fight. If you have a situation when a side is getting to numerous, as in your goon squad example, then it's up the game's dev's to ensure that there are countermeasures that keep the game balanced and fun for all. And while this might require innovation, it doesn't mean that we should simply not bother for the possibility of such a situation.
When was the last time Mr. Fuller, that you paid to go to a sporting even where a team of players played against dummies? Take ANY competitive sport, and it's PvP, do all the players who then play sport do so in order to emulate some monolithic street fight? No. It's for the challenge, for testing oneself against the best and knowing how we stand, for that human urge to constantly strive to better ourselves and stand on top of the pinnacle and shout "I DID IT."
I plead to the MMORPG.com editors. Next time, get someone with a clue to write these articles, or at least expect the so called journalist to make a frigging effort to do some research before the regurgitate the first thing that comes into their head. Or better yet, get Mr. Fuller to write another article about how anyone who hates PvP does so because they are a whiny kid who can't stand to lose and has to have everything when he wants it, because it would be just as balanced.
As an MMO player of 10 years, and someone who loves PvP, I found this article degrading, demeaning and ignorant.
I've been an MMORPG.com reader for a long time. I actually had an account that I hadn't logged into for a long time because, quite frankly, I've given up on the idea of internet debates, and am happy to read both sides of the arguement from others' points of view. However, I felt compelled to create a new account (since I've lost the old one and don't have my old e-mail anymore) to write this post. Firstly, let me just register my shock at such a horrible article written by a supposed MMO vet. who has years of experience as a professional MMORPG correspondent. This has to be the most biased, ignorant and one-sided (I guess biased covers that already) article I've read on this or any subject pertaining to MMORPG's, and shows a complete lack of, not only nuance, but also journalistic professionalism on the part of the writer. Looks like you picked someone who hates PvP and wouldn't care two hoots if PvP was removed forever from every MMO out there, to write an article about why people might like PvP, which is why it is full of the same, tired cliche's regularly parroted by those who have never PvP'd, don't enjoy it and don't see the point in it or of it. Although based on a lot of the posts I've read on these forums, this attitude is reflective of the growing ignorance that people have towards and about PvP, so I'm sure it will go down a treat with many of your readers. The writer begins by comparing PvP to a street fight, complete with blood, viciousness and the desire to hurt another human being. Sensationalistic? Perhaps. But this opening paragraph, a clear display of the writer's attitude towards PvP, sets the tone of sheer ignorance displayed throughout the rest of the article. From a hackneyed and limited eye cast open open warfare, to a denigration of the characters of people who enjoy PvP as simply out to grief others, and a similarly sweeping generalisation about how PvP servers and games are designed to foster this attitude. This is followed by a pathetic overview of objective-based PvP that looks at nothing more than the shallowest aspects of the same. The closing paragraph too has little to say beyond sprouting more generic nonsense about subjectivity and how devlopers aren't paying attention to why people PvP when they implement this in a game. I'm frankly DISGUSTED by this ridiculous excuse for journalism. It seems to me that Mr. Fuller had a deadline to meet to submit an article, couldn't think of anything intelligent or meaningful to say and mashed together this article at the last minute. How much research, if any, did you do Mr. Fuller? If you had called this article "the ugly side of PvP" and claimed from the outset that you were focussing on griefers (who I'm not denying exist) then perhaps I could considered this article to have a hint of legitimacy, though even as an article on that subject, it is pretty bare bones. I don't PvP to grief, or to dance on someone's corpse, or to call people carebears. I PvP because I like the challenge. I like the idea of testing my skills and intelligent against another person who doing their best to beat me. I enjoy the exhiliration of winning a PvP fight and knowing that I didn't just figure after 1000 attempts the way some pre-programmed AI is going to react everytime. If I wanted that I would play single player games, which put the emphasis on that experience. (and I do play and ENJOY single player games also). I also appreciate when a skilled opponent beats me, and does something I didn't anticipate. I like going, wow, that guy is good. I like the challange of improving my own play so that I can maybe beat them the next time I encounter that player. I like knowing that each time I go up against the same opponent, they are thinking about my style of play, my strenghts and weaknesses and adapting their own play to counter it. In Warfare based PvP, I enjoy the feeling of being part of a massive battle. Of just being ONE soldier among a thousand. I like the idea that this ONE soldier can make a difference if they try hard enough. I'm sorry, but for ME, this experience is just not the same when it's 1000 players against some ridiculously overpowered monster, that is challenging, not because of their intelligence, but because of some pre-programmed sequence that the players need to discover to meet it. Sure, solving puzzles is fun too, but it's a different kind of fun, a different kind of challenge. I like the idea, of being a general or commander in an army. Of having a group of players who want to win and are willing to coordinate and take orders to do it. I like the idea of coming up with a strategy, of studying the terrain and figuring out the best ambush points. I like the logistics of a running a 200 player keep siege. Of organising all those players to work together against others who are doing the same. Of constantly striving for perfection. I like being part of a group that is dominating and rolling all opposition in it's path, I equally like the idea of being the underdog, of being the race or team that is heavily out numbered, and fighting 300 style in a lost cause, only to make the enemy pay a heavy price for every inch of ground gained. I also like the competition aspect, the idea of creating a legend. I want people to know who I am on a server. "Hey that Klazart dude is pretty good, I'd like to be on his team." I like the idea of the opposition trembling when my team and I enter the battlefield, cause they know it's going to be a tough fight. If you have a situation when a side is getting to numerous, as in your goon squad example, then it's up the game's dev's to ensure that there are countermeasures that keep the game balanced and fun for all. And while this might require innovation, it doesn't mean that we should simply not bother for the possibility of such a situation. When was the last time Mr. Fuller, that you paid to go to a sporting even where a team of players played against dummies? Take ANY competitive sport, and it's PvP, do all the players who then play sport do so in order to emulate some monolithic street fight? No. It's for the challenge, for testing oneself against the best and knowing how we stand, for that human urge to constantly strive to better ourselves and stand on top of the pinnacle and shout "I DID IT." I plead to the MMORPG.com editors. Next time, get someone with a clue to write these articles, or at least expect the so called journalist to make a frigging effort to do some research before the regurgitate the first thing that comes into their head. Or better yet, get Mr. Fuller to write another article about how anyone who hates PvP does so because they are a whiny kid who can't stand to lose and has to have everything when he wants it, because it would be just as balanced. As an MMO player of 10 years, and someone who loves PvP, I found this article degrading, demeaning and ignorant.
QFT
I just meant to write something along these lines but KlazartSC expressed my views admirably.
The only useful info the original article provides is an insight into the most common prejudices hollier-than-thou PvE-ers have against PvP... and the sad state mmo PvP is in these days is mostly due to devs listening to these prejudices and creating PvP environments that actually cater to what the OP terms the "dark side of PvP" without seeing where the REAL appeal lies.
I'm a "carebear PvP" and in fact I admire my opponents on the "other side" - they are here to provide me with entertainment and I do the same to them. My server in WAR has a very lively forum activity where orders and destros share stories and congratulate each other on good plays. Almost like a caffe in a tennis club or a bowling place. In fact I tend to get angry more often at my own faction and my allies than at the "enemies".
The idea that PvP pleasure is somehow inherently based on some kind of sadism, which is implied throughout the article, is deeply insulting, patently false and ignorant. I do not play basketball or board games out of sadism or a wish to "hurt" another guy or even prove I'm somehow "better". I do it because it is much much more interesting and stimulationg for the old grey cells to play against a human, unpredictable and equal opponent rather than some pre-scripted encounter that is carefully designed to eventually let me win so I can feel uber.
Why do we PvP? The number one reason why I think most people PvP is because the AI of any game is lightyears behind when it comes to skill of a real player.
Even in a structured game of chess it takes a super computer to just rival the best chess player. In an RPG, where the battles has alot more parameters, and on a normal computer the AI cant hold a candle against a real, skilled player.
So why do people PvP is almost like asking why do people chat with other people rather than chat with a scripted AI. Humans are, so far, much more sophisticated than any AI. And for me it just seems stupid to be interconnected with millions of people over the net and yet decide to compete against an AI when you can compete against a real person.
I agree with the fact that fighting players are more fun. However, judging from my experience on the forum, most PvP player will not understand anything but violence. I cannot beat them up in real life since it is the internet, I suppose I'll have to beat them up in game. I suppose it could always just be this forum, other forums have alot of mature PvP players with good ideology about PvP and how to have fun in a MMORPG.
no pvpv here. i dont like the idea to harm another people in any kind.
but were all sheeps or wolfs. some just like to eat and be happy, other wanna hunt and kill.
PvP is not about harming anyone else. Though that is the ignorant assumption the writer of this article has based it on. You need to open your mind and learn a little more about what PvP actually is and why people who like it do so. Read my post above if your interested in exploring a different point of view and not just boxing yourself into some prejudiced view of something you haven't experienced or understand.
no pvpv here. i dont like the idea to harm another people in any kind.
but were all sheeps or wolfs. some just like to eat and be happy, other wanna hunt and kill.
PvP is not about harming anyone else. Though that is the ignorant assumption the writer of this article has based it on. You need to open your mind and learn a little more about what PvP actually is and why people who like it do so. Read my post above if your interested in exploring a different point of view and not just boxing yourself into some prejudiced view of something you haven't experienced or understand.
You try to explain to him that people who don't play PvP are not what everyone suspects them to be. Then you go on to verbally insult him???
I miss that game so much. I felt like I belonged to the realm I played in. Like all the folks in my realm and I all grew up together or something. And when you stepped out into that frontier you were defending your realms honor.
Then it turned into something bad. As with all expansions the world just kept getting bigger and more spread out. And you saw less and less folks on the PvE side due to the dispersion of players. And eventually it got lonelier and lonelier.
But the original DAoC experience has never been repeated for me. And I've tried so hard to get it back.
no pvpv here. i dont like the idea to harm another people in any kind.
but were all sheeps or wolfs. some just like to eat and be happy, other wanna hunt and kill.
Have you ever played a game of Chess? Or Monopoly? Or tic-tac-toe?
In every game there are sociopaths that ruin it for others - the people who for some reason play Monopoly to show you they're uber and to "hurt" you as a "looser". I hate those people and I'd never invite them to my kitchen gaming table. However the sad thing is that in mmos there is that general perception already formed that PvP is only for sociopaths which is quite simply not true.. and this notion is destroying the possibility of a good PvP mmo.
Instead of concentrating on the 4% of the population that has genetical sociopathic tendencies the mmo devs should pay attention to the other 96% who play games for fun. Generally the PvP in mmos looks like it does right now because the majority of devs feel the need to cater to those 4% rather than the 96%... and that is due to simple prejudice (which is fostered by the vocal minorities of sociopathic PK-ers screaming for "real consequences for dying"(*1) and devs who, it seems, never experienced real competetive but friendly gaming since they've all grown up on single-player nintendos or whatever).
I'm an old board-gamer and I've been playing "PvP" at my gaming table for decades. And I never ever play those games to "harm" my friends who come over for a drink, a laugh and some dice-rolling. Yeah, I'm a real "wolf" out to get those "sheep" for my nefarious ends.
(*1) I'm not dismissing harsh death penalties as inherently sociopathic here. There are a legitimate tool in a game designer's toolbox. However their justification has to be based on the game model rather than a thinly veiled sadistic impulse to "make the other guy feel the hurt."
no pvpv here. i dont like the idea to harm another people in any kind.
but were all sheeps or wolfs. some just like to eat and be happy, other wanna hunt and kill.
PvP is not about harming anyone else. Though that is the ignorant assumption the writer of this article has based it on. You need to open your mind and learn a little more about what PvP actually is and why people who like it do so. Read my post above if your interested in exploring a different point of view and not just boxing yourself into some prejudiced view of something you haven't experienced or understand.
You try to explain to him that people who don't play PvP are not what everyone suspects them to be. Then you go on to verbally insult him???
Way to make your point.
Ya, my frustration got the better of me. There is only so much ignorance one can handle.
no pvpv here. i dont like the idea to harm another people in any kind.
but were all sheeps or wolfs. some just like to eat and be happy, other wanna hunt and kill.
PvP is not about harming anyone else. Though that is the ignorant assumption the writer of this article has based it on. You need to open your mind and learn a little more about what PvP actually is and why people who like it do so. Read my post above if your interested in exploring a different point of view and not just boxing yourself into some prejudiced view of something you haven't experienced or understand.
Actually it is, it harms someone mentally and cause mental stress. I acknowledge that fact when I PK. We should not ignore that fact just because it suits our needs, however, it will only make me act in moderation when PKing.
P.S. Wolves also want to eat and be happy, that is why they hunt. However, gankers don't kill for food, gankers kill for fun. Just to correct the technicality issue there.
no pvpv here. i dont like the idea to harm another people in any kind.
but were all sheeps or wolfs. some just like to eat and be happy, other wanna hunt and kill.
PvP is not about harming anyone else. Though that is the ignorant assumption the writer of this article has based it on. You need to open your mind and learn a little more about what PvP actually is and why people who like it do so. Read my post above if your interested in exploring a different point of view and not just boxing yourself into some prejudiced view of something you haven't experienced or understand.
Actually it is, it harms someone mentally and cause mental stress. I acknowledge that fact when I PK. We should not ignore that fact just because it suits our needs, however, it will only make me act in moderation when PKing.
P.S. Wolves also want to eat and be happy, that is why they hunt. However, gankers don't kill for food, gankers kill for fun. Just to correct the technicality issue there.
In a good PvP game it shouldn't "harm someone mentally or cause mental stress.". I don't feel harmed or mentally violated when I loose a game of chess or get killed in an enjoyable PvP match. When the destros outwit us in the WAR campaign I don't feel stressed - I feel entertained and I say "Oh you son of a gun you got me there!" and laugh with appreciation and respect at my oponents' play.
When I realize that I get "mental harm or stress" from loosing in a game (be it PvP or PvE) I just leave and never play that game again. Loosing is an integral part of life and you can't ever win if you don't loose ocassionally. In fact in PvP you generally win/loose 50-50% and I'm not paying good money to be aggravated by anyone or anything, especially not for 50% of my time. A good game is the one where even loosing is enjoyable - like when you play Chess, loose and yet still feel enjoyment with the game ITSELF because you had good time playing it and you respect and love (yes LOVE) your opponent because he provided you with that good time.
It is precisely this PK attitude you got there that gives mmo PvP such tarnish.
Good use of PvP dynamics can make a MMO many games in one. That makes for more long term playability. But you can have all times in one game if you set it our right.
A bar room brawl scenario would suit the ‘last man standing’ type of player versus player. Team based PvP mini scenarios as in WAR keep the team player happy. Realm versus realm keeps the player happy who wants to ‘fight for something.’
But they have to flawlessly meshed, you can’t have one being favoured over the other to such an extent it skews the game. The mini fight scenarios in WAR were like that, people did them just to level and it distorted the game. When that happens the number of times a player can do something like a mini scenario needs to be limited.
well thers always the "forced" pvp and the "do want" pvp. sometimes it really is fun, to play against other "willing" players.
but brainless ganking and forcing his own will to other players ( NO QUESTING FOR YOU HERE! ) is no fun at all ! its just retarded...
I agree completely here. I detest griefers of any kind just like you do. In fact you can grief people as well in PvE as in PvP (ninjaing, kill-stealing anyone)? However it seems that there is this knee-jerk psychological reaction that automatically equates PvP with griefing.. which of course does not have to be the case. My own experience is even such that I felt more griefed and generally aggroed in a PvE raiding game (WoW) than I ever did in a PvP-centered one (WAR).
And you can even mix PvE questing with PvP if it is done well and this PvP component fully taken into account. WoW suffered from gankers because they basically enabled open PvP in a game which is not designed for it. Aion has PvP in PvE areas and I never heard PvE people complaining because of it - because PvP is factored in the very game design from day 1 (you get quests for PvP "infiltration" - so the guy attacking you is not doing it just to make you miserable, death is not that painful (no corpse running), PvP is time-limited due to rifts opening and closing so you can always move to alternative area untill it passes etc etc etc.)
I love team sports, and have often played football, at the start of a game we often pick players with the aim to make things EVEN.
I get no thrill out of taking a group of mates and taking over where some kids are playing and challenging them.
The problem with PvP is that it is so rarely even and most PKers have the option for some form of stealth class. It's not at all difficult to kill a player if you fully buff yourself then surprise attack someone who has just finished with a mob. Furthermore MMOs are backwards in their handicap system since the player with more experience (and better) is given better weapons and more damage.
I enjoy open world PvP when it fits into the Lore and isn't just same race/faction killing without consequences. It kinda makes sense to be running from 5 Orcs if you're a Elf that strayed tooclose.
I think that apart from this PvP would be better if it was held in game as mini gladiator style tournaments. You could have solo battles, pair battles and team battles with 5 and 10. Have some form of ladder system. This way the true PvPer could actually find battles that test their skills. Kudos gear (with no real benefit) could be awarded to winners.
The other problem is when the game system makes things too easy for griefers and I'm put off games where most of the PvP is just this.
Edit:
I fully agree with Markaraos in all his posts above:
The sad thing with some PKers is they think they're the online equivalent of Genghis Khan, as they set out to grief other players. I admit that they can achieve their goal, but it doesn't cause me to wallow in the pity of unending turmoil as they had hoped. I can always log off, and I can always play something else. It really is that easy.
I never really got into PvP in the 'open-world' sense, usually I just like to be left alone while I do all my PvE stuff. Just like to relax while I am playing. I have tried it though.
However, I do enjoy PvP in a controlled environment.
The sad thing with some PKers is they think they're the online equivalent of Genghis Khan, as they set out to grief other players. I admit that they can achieve their goal, but it doesn't cause me to wallow in the pity of unending turmoil as they had hoped. I can always log off, and I can always play something else. It really is that easy.
Thing is while it doesnt both you, it does both a lot of people it really does. The amount of death threats I have had over Pking someone is crazy. Beleive me I get crazy amount of abuse PKing its great. I love it and is one of the reasons I play. If I kill 200 players a day, I guarentee at least 20 will give me abuse.
Comments
I don't PVP at all. I used to in all kinds of different genres (including online chess) but I soon found that most PVP is nothing more than fancy "rock, paper, scissors" and is usually rife with cheaters. No thanks.
I now play games exclusively for story and immersion. I prefer the cooperative aspect of online games than pure PVP.
YMMV.
DAoC "open field" was nothing more than one group running around all stuck together until they accidently ran into another group of players all stuck to one guy running them around. NF brought way more to that game, and I hope devs will make more games with objectives like keep and relic takes and realm pride. running around aimlessly what not what you said in your article (realm pride) it was unorganized choas.
When I said i had "time", i meant virtual time, i got no RL "time" for you.
And left out Darkfall which is all about the PVP happening anywhere for no reason and reasons created by the players. Like EVE online when it released Darkfall has still got some way to go to refine it and polish it and expand it.
If you never ran in a good group yea it could have been that. Me and others would find places to hide and ambush. There wasn't any accident about it. We'd bait with keep takes and bait people with kills in DF or the frontier. Sorry you ran in bad stupid groups, that just ran down the road or along the zone wall from PK to PK.
NF brought roaming RvR to a keep where you sat still plucking away with trebs and ranged spells until a door fell. Generally the groups with most healers and ranged players won.
The Maps turned RvR into easyport mode so you knew where the fights were. There was no more guerilla warfare tactics because as soon as you killed someone your ass lit up like a big beacon. It even let people know if you were a small force or a big force by the size of icon.
In the old days you had reports that went only to the guild who owned the keep. It would tell you numbers of attackers, but you could also fool that report by keeping the main force backed away if you wanted. Strategy not just numbers in OF.
Was their a lot of unorganized chaos in OF ? Sure , but that didn't change with NF it got worse,, because all people did was head to the keep with the big ass icon and zerg each other down. Tell them to run past the bananachs and you'd get a WHERE??? in chat because people no longer needed to know the location of anything. It dumbed down the whole realm warfare experience which is why so many people quit and only the hardcores stayed for so long. The population now is rising because WAR was such an utter failure.
But yea, somebody needs to capitalize on the RvR experience again.
I've been an MMORPG.com reader for a long time. I actually had an account that I hadn't logged into for a long time because, quite frankly, I've given up on the idea of internet debates, and am happy to read both sides of the arguement from others' points of view.
However, I felt compelled to create a new account (since I've lost the old one and don't have my old e-mail anymore) to write this post.
Firstly, let me just register my shock at such a horrible article written by a supposed MMO vet. who has years of experience as a professional MMORPG correspondent. This has to be the most biased, ignorant and one-sided (I guess biased covers that already) article I've read on this or any subject pertaining to MMORPG's, and shows a complete lack of, not only nuance, but also journalistic professionalism on the part of the writer.
Looks like you picked someone who hates PvP and wouldn't care two hoots if PvP was removed forever from every MMO out there, to write an article about why people might like PvP, which is why it is full of the same, tired cliche's regularly parroted by those who have never PvP'd, don't enjoy it and don't see the point in it or of it. Although based on a lot of the posts I've read on these forums, this attitude is reflective of the growing ignorance that people have towards and about PvP, so I'm sure it will go down a treat with many of your readers.
The writer begins by comparing PvP to a street fight, complete with blood, viciousness and the desire to hurt another human being. Sensationalistic? Perhaps. But this opening paragraph, a clear display of the writer's attitude towards PvP, sets the tone of sheer ignorance displayed throughout the rest of the article. From a hackneyed and limited eye cast open open warfare, to a denigration of the characters of people who enjoy PvP as simply out to grief others, and a similarly sweeping generalisation about how PvP servers and games are designed to foster this attitude. This is followed by a pathetic overview of objective-based PvP that looks at nothing more than the shallowest aspects of the same. The closing paragraph too has little to say beyond sprouting more generic nonsense about subjectivity and how devlopers aren't paying attention to why people PvP when they implement this in a game.
I'm frankly DISGUSTED by this ridiculous excuse for journalism. It seems to me that Mr. Fuller had a deadline to meet to submit an article, couldn't think of anything intelligent or meaningful to say and mashed together this article at the last minute. How much research, if any, did you do Mr. Fuller? If you had called this article "the ugly side of PvP" and claimed from the outset that you were focussing on griefers (who I'm not denying exist) then perhaps I could considered this article to have a hint of legitimacy, though even as an article on that subject, it is pretty bare bones.
I don't PvP to grief, or to dance on someone's corpse, or to call people carebears. I PvP because I like the challenge. I like the idea of testing my skills and intelligent against another person who doing their best to beat me. I enjoy the exhiliration of winning a PvP fight and knowing that I didn't just figure after 1000 attempts the way some pre-programmed AI is going to react everytime. If I wanted that I would play single player games, which put the emphasis on that experience. (and I do play and ENJOY single player games also). I also appreciate when a skilled opponent beats me, and does something I didn't anticipate. I like going, wow, that guy is good. I like the challange of improving my own play so that I can maybe beat them the next time I encounter that player. I like knowing that each time I go up against the same opponent, they are thinking about my style of play, my strenghts and weaknesses and adapting their own play to counter it.
In Warfare based PvP, I enjoy the feeling of being part of a massive battle. Of just being ONE soldier among a thousand. I like the idea that this ONE soldier can make a difference if they try hard enough. I'm sorry, but for ME, this experience is just not the same when it's 1000 players against some ridiculously overpowered monster, that is challenging, not because of their intelligence, but because of some pre-programmed sequence that the players need to discover to meet it. Sure, solving puzzles is fun too, but it's a different kind of fun, a different kind of challenge.
I like the idea, of being a general or commander in an army. Of having a group of players who want to win and are willing to coordinate and take orders to do it. I like the idea of coming up with a strategy, of studying the terrain and figuring out the best ambush points. I like the logistics of a running a 200 player keep siege. Of organising all those players to work together against others who are doing the same. Of constantly striving for perfection. I like being part of a group that is dominating and rolling all opposition in it's path, I equally like the idea of being the underdog, of being the race or team that is heavily out numbered, and fighting 300 style in a lost cause, only to make the enemy pay a heavy price for every inch of ground gained.
I also like the competition aspect, the idea of creating a legend. I want people to know who I am on a server. "Hey that Klazart dude is pretty good, I'd like to be on his team." I like the idea of the opposition trembling when my team and I enter the battlefield, cause they know it's going to be a tough fight. If you have a situation when a side is getting to numerous, as in your goon squad example, then it's up the game's dev's to ensure that there are countermeasures that keep the game balanced and fun for all. And while this might require innovation, it doesn't mean that we should simply not bother for the possibility of such a situation.
When was the last time Mr. Fuller, that you paid to go to a sporting even where a team of players played against dummies? Take ANY competitive sport, and it's PvP, do all the players who then play sport do so in order to emulate some monolithic street fight? No. It's for the challenge, for testing oneself against the best and knowing how we stand, for that human urge to constantly strive to better ourselves and stand on top of the pinnacle and shout "I DID IT."
I plead to the MMORPG.com editors. Next time, get someone with a clue to write these articles, or at least expect the so called journalist to make a frigging effort to do some research before the regurgitate the first thing that comes into their head. Or better yet, get Mr. Fuller to write another article about how anyone who hates PvP does so because they are a whiny kid who can't stand to lose and has to have everything when he wants it, because it would be just as balanced.
As an MMO player of 10 years, and someone who loves PvP, I found this article degrading, demeaning and ignorant.
QFT
I just meant to write something along these lines but KlazartSC expressed my views admirably.
The only useful info the original article provides is an insight into the most common prejudices hollier-than-thou PvE-ers have against PvP... and the sad state mmo PvP is in these days is mostly due to devs listening to these prejudices and creating PvP environments that actually cater to what the OP terms the "dark side of PvP" without seeing where the REAL appeal lies.
I'm a "carebear PvP" and in fact I admire my opponents on the "other side" - they are here to provide me with entertainment and I do the same to them. My server in WAR has a very lively forum activity where orders and destros share stories and congratulate each other on good plays. Almost like a caffe in a tennis club or a bowling place. In fact I tend to get angry more often at my own faction and my allies than at the "enemies".
The idea that PvP pleasure is somehow inherently based on some kind of sadism, which is implied throughout the article, is deeply insulting, patently false and ignorant. I do not play basketball or board games out of sadism or a wish to "hurt" another guy or even prove I'm somehow "better". I do it because it is much much more interesting and stimulationg for the old grey cells to play against a human, unpredictable and equal opponent rather than some pre-scripted encounter that is carefully designed to eventually let me win so I can feel uber.
Why do we PvP? The number one reason why I think most people PvP is because the AI of any game is lightyears behind when it comes to skill of a real player.
Even in a structured game of chess it takes a super computer to just rival the best chess player. In an RPG, where the battles has alot more parameters, and on a normal computer the AI cant hold a candle against a real, skilled player.
So why do people PvP is almost like asking why do people chat with other people rather than chat with a scripted AI. Humans are, so far, much more sophisticated than any AI. And for me it just seems stupid to be interconnected with millions of people over the net and yet decide to compete against an AI when you can compete against a real person.
My gaming blog
I agree with the fact that fighting players are more fun. However, judging from my experience on the forum, most PvP player will not understand anything but violence. I cannot beat them up in real life since it is the internet, I suppose I'll have to beat them up in game. I suppose it could always just be this forum, other forums have alot of mature PvP players with good ideology about PvP and how to have fun in a MMORPG.
no pvpv here.
i dont like the idea to harm another people in any kind.
but were all sheeps or wolfs.
some just like to eat and be happy, other wanna hunt and kill.
I agreed with most of that also. DaoC PvP was the best. Realm Pride, Relics, Keeps, Open field,, solo, duo, 8 man, zerg vs. zerg.
Three major problems with PvP nowadays
PvP is not about harming anyone else. Though that is the ignorant assumption the writer of this article has based it on. You need to open your mind and learn a little more about what PvP actually is and why people who like it do so. Read my post above if your interested in exploring a different point of view and not just boxing yourself into some prejudiced view of something you haven't experienced or understand.
PvP is not about harming anyone else. Though that is the ignorant assumption the writer of this article has based it on. You need to open your mind and learn a little more about what PvP actually is and why people who like it do so. Read my post above if your interested in exploring a different point of view and not just boxing yourself into some prejudiced view of something you haven't experienced or understand.
You try to explain to him that people who don't play PvP are not what everyone suspects them to be. Then you go on to verbally insult him???
Way to make your point.
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The only PvP I've ever enjoyed was with DAoC.
I miss that game so much. I felt like I belonged to the realm I played in. Like all the folks in my realm and I all grew up together or something. And when you stepped out into that frontier you were defending your realms honor.
Then it turned into something bad. As with all expansions the world just kept getting bigger and more spread out. And you saw less and less folks on the PvE side due to the dispersion of players. And eventually it got lonelier and lonelier.
But the original DAoC experience has never been repeated for me. And I've tried so hard to get it back.
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Have you ever played a game of Chess? Or Monopoly? Or tic-tac-toe?
In every game there are sociopaths that ruin it for others - the people who for some reason play Monopoly to show you they're uber and to "hurt" you as a "looser". I hate those people and I'd never invite them to my kitchen gaming table. However the sad thing is that in mmos there is that general perception already formed that PvP is only for sociopaths which is quite simply not true.. and this notion is destroying the possibility of a good PvP mmo.
Instead of concentrating on the 4% of the population that has genetical sociopathic tendencies the mmo devs should pay attention to the other 96% who play games for fun. Generally the PvP in mmos looks like it does right now because the majority of devs feel the need to cater to those 4% rather than the 96%... and that is due to simple prejudice (which is fostered by the vocal minorities of sociopathic PK-ers screaming for "real consequences for dying"(*1) and devs who, it seems, never experienced real competetive but friendly gaming since they've all grown up on single-player nintendos or whatever).
I'm an old board-gamer and I've been playing "PvP" at my gaming table for decades. And I never ever play those games to "harm" my friends who come over for a drink, a laugh and some dice-rolling. Yeah, I'm a real "wolf" out to get those "sheep" for my nefarious ends.
(*1) I'm not dismissing harsh death penalties as inherently sociopathic here. There are a legitimate tool in a game designer's toolbox. However their justification has to be based on the game model rather than a thinly veiled sadistic impulse to "make the other guy feel the hurt."
PvP is not about harming anyone else. Though that is the ignorant assumption the writer of this article has based it on. You need to open your mind and learn a little more about what PvP actually is and why people who like it do so. Read my post above if your interested in exploring a different point of view and not just boxing yourself into some prejudiced view of something you haven't experienced or understand.
You try to explain to him that people who don't play PvP are not what everyone suspects them to be. Then you go on to verbally insult him???
Way to make your point.
Ya, my frustration got the better of me. There is only so much ignorance one can handle.
PvP is not about harming anyone else. Though that is the ignorant assumption the writer of this article has based it on. You need to open your mind and learn a little more about what PvP actually is and why people who like it do so. Read my post above if your interested in exploring a different point of view and not just boxing yourself into some prejudiced view of something you haven't experienced or understand.
Actually it is, it harms someone mentally and cause mental stress. I acknowledge that fact when I PK. We should not ignore that fact just because it suits our needs, however, it will only make me act in moderation when PKing.
P.S. Wolves also want to eat and be happy, that is why they hunt. However, gankers don't kill for food, gankers kill for fun. Just to correct the technicality issue there.
PvP is not about harming anyone else. Though that is the ignorant assumption the writer of this article has based it on. You need to open your mind and learn a little more about what PvP actually is and why people who like it do so. Read my post above if your interested in exploring a different point of view and not just boxing yourself into some prejudiced view of something you haven't experienced or understand.
Actually it is, it harms someone mentally and cause mental stress. I acknowledge that fact when I PK. We should not ignore that fact just because it suits our needs, however, it will only make me act in moderation when PKing.
P.S. Wolves also want to eat and be happy, that is why they hunt. However, gankers don't kill for food, gankers kill for fun. Just to correct the technicality issue there.
In a good PvP game it shouldn't "harm someone mentally or cause mental stress.". I don't feel harmed or mentally violated when I loose a game of chess or get killed in an enjoyable PvP match. When the destros outwit us in the WAR campaign I don't feel stressed - I feel entertained and I say "Oh you son of a gun you got me there!" and laugh with appreciation and respect at my oponents' play.
When I realize that I get "mental harm or stress" from loosing in a game (be it PvP or PvE) I just leave and never play that game again. Loosing is an integral part of life and you can't ever win if you don't loose ocassionally. In fact in PvP you generally win/loose 50-50% and I'm not paying good money to be aggravated by anyone or anything, especially not for 50% of my time. A good game is the one where even loosing is enjoyable - like when you play Chess, loose and yet still feel enjoyment with the game ITSELF because you had good time playing it and you respect and love (yes LOVE) your opponent because he provided you with that good time.
It is precisely this PK attitude you got there that gives mmo PvP such tarnish.
Good use of PvP dynamics can make a MMO many games in one. That makes for more long term playability. But you can have all times in one game if you set it our right.
A bar room brawl scenario would suit the ‘last man standing’ type of player versus player. Team based PvP mini scenarios as in WAR keep the team player happy. Realm versus realm keeps the player happy who wants to ‘fight for something.’
But they have to flawlessly meshed, you can’t have one being favoured over the other to such an extent it skews the game. The mini fight scenarios in WAR were like that, people did them just to level and it distorted the game. When that happens the number of times a player can do something like a mini scenario needs to be limited.
I love fighting in real life.
I love fighting in game, I love making peoples games hell and grief them. I don't PvP I PK.
well thers always the "forced" pvp and the "do want" pvp.
sometimes it really is fun, to play against other "willing" players.
but brainless ganking and forcing his own will to other players ( NO QUESTING FOR YOU HERE! ) is no fun at all !
its just retarded...
I fail to see how this is retarded. If you do not wish to risk being PKed then please play a game/server that does not allow PKing or PvP.
I agree completely here. I detest griefers of any kind just like you do. In fact you can grief people as well in PvE as in PvP (ninjaing, kill-stealing anyone)? However it seems that there is this knee-jerk psychological reaction that automatically equates PvP with griefing.. which of course does not have to be the case. My own experience is even such that I felt more griefed and generally aggroed in a PvE raiding game (WoW) than I ever did in a PvP-centered one (WAR).
And you can even mix PvE questing with PvP if it is done well and this PvP component fully taken into account. WoW suffered from gankers because they basically enabled open PvP in a game which is not designed for it. Aion has PvP in PvE areas and I never heard PvE people complaining because of it - because PvP is factored in the very game design from day 1 (you get quests for PvP "infiltration" - so the guy attacking you is not doing it just to make you miserable, death is not that painful (no corpse running), PvP is time-limited due to rifts opening and closing so you can always move to alternative area untill it passes etc etc etc.)
I love team sports, and have often played football, at the start of a game we often pick players with the aim to make things EVEN.
I get no thrill out of taking a group of mates and taking over where some kids are playing and challenging them.
The problem with PvP is that it is so rarely even and most PKers have the option for some form of stealth class. It's not at all difficult to kill a player if you fully buff yourself then surprise attack someone who has just finished with a mob. Furthermore MMOs are backwards in their handicap system since the player with more experience (and better) is given better weapons and more damage.
I enjoy open world PvP when it fits into the Lore and isn't just same race/faction killing without consequences. It kinda makes sense to be running from 5 Orcs if you're a Elf that strayed tooclose.
I think that apart from this PvP would be better if it was held in game as mini gladiator style tournaments. You could have solo battles, pair battles and team battles with 5 and 10. Have some form of ladder system. This way the true PvPer could actually find battles that test their skills. Kudos gear (with no real benefit) could be awarded to winners.
The other problem is when the game system makes things too easy for griefers and I'm put off games where most of the PvP is just this.
Edit:
I fully agree with Markaraos in all his posts above:
The sad thing with some PKers is they think they're the online equivalent of Genghis Khan, as they set out to grief other players. I admit that they can achieve their goal, but it doesn't cause me to wallow in the pity of unending turmoil as they had hoped. I can always log off, and I can always play something else. It really is that easy.
I never really got into PvP in the 'open-world' sense, usually I just like to be left alone while I do all my PvE stuff. Just like to relax while I am playing. I have tried it though.
However, I do enjoy PvP in a controlled environment.
Thing is while it doesnt both you, it does both a lot of people it really does. The amount of death threats I have had over Pking someone is crazy. Beleive me I get crazy amount of abuse PKing its great. I love it and is one of the reasons I play. If I kill 200 players a day, I guarentee at least 20 will give me abuse.