Decent article. I enjoy PvP in both purpose and kill forms, though only when done maturely in the latter scenario. When I win, no matter how easily I did so, I always treat that person with respect, and I certainly don't camp his respawn to kill him/her over and over again. I might even /bow. Opposite, when I lose, I don't /shout what a cheap skill-less bastard he is, or that he haxx, or that "I lagged lol."
I think if people were more mature in the gaming environment, more would enjoy PvP in all its forms. My favorite is still purpose-driven PvP though; I admit, having some trophy to show off is nice.
Never said ego wasn't allowed, just stupidity ;D
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
I am actually currently playing Darkfall myself, I am really enjoying PvP in this game as it is not a feature in Darkfall.. The feature was freedom from gameplay that didn't make sense, this makes the PvP much more imserive. The naval combat, the wars, the 100 vs 100 man raids to try and take each others towns, the full loot, the penalties for killing other players which prevents griefing in the beginning.. The only other games where I truly enjoyed PvP like it was EVE and UO(back in the day) I never played DaOC. But games where it is basically a spamfest, click and watch, is kinda annoying. Darkfall PvP somewhat takes skill, you manually block, dodge and there is no targetting, you have to aim.. The game itself though lacks much content, lacks PvE, the world is very, very empty, towns are very, very barren, and you literally have no social life in Darkfall, but the PVP gets 10.0 from me. Everything else is meh... More games should follows this kind of path though, it seems a few un-released games like Earthrise, Mortal Online, Face of Mankind, Afterworld, are probably going to follow this path, and Fallen Earth will have specific PvP zones.. Champions PvP should also be fun if there is any, I expect mini-games from Champions. But it is the game mechanics which makes combat fun.. Do you want some spamfest where whoever is able to spam their keys the fastest, wins? Like in WoW, you just spam your abilities on one target, and you watch your character perform his attacks.. Or do you want something real, something where you feel that heat of battle? Darkfall and EVE are those games in my opinion. WAR PvP was okay, but if they had real time combat, it would have been freakin awesome...
Real Time Combat and FPS Combat are the future of MMO combat.. Single player MMO's use real time combat, they pretty much all do.. It's time to head into the future when it comes to MMO's.. The horrible graphics and gameplay really need to stop, and advance into where modern console games are going.
Sometimes I like to test myself against other players in games is why I pvp. I dont do it all the time as some games havent balanced the pvp aspect of thier games. They keep trying to tweek things and it still never seems to work out.
Played : WOW, LOTRO, COH/COV, EQ2, SWG, and WAR. Playing EVE Online and AOC. Wtg for SW:TOR and WOD
I am actually currently playing Darkfall myself, I am really enjoying PvP in this game as it is not a feature in Darkfall.. The feature was freedom from gameplay that didn't make sense, this makes the PvP much more imserive. The naval combat, the wars, the 100 vs 100 man raids to try and take each others towns, the full loot, the penalties for killing other players which prevents griefing in the beginning.. The only other games where I truly enjoyed PvP like it was EVE and UO(back in the day) I never played DaOC. But games where it is basically a spamfest, click and watch, is kinda annoying. Darkfall PvP somewhat takes skill, you manually block, dodge and there is no targetting, you have to aim.. The game itself though lacks much content, lacks PvE, the world is very, very empty, towns are very, very barren, and you literally have no social life in Darkfall, but the PVP gets 10.0 from me. Everything else is meh... More games should follows this kind of path though, it seems a few un-released games like Earthrise, Mortal Online, Face of Mankind, Afterworld, are probably going to follow this path, and Fallen Earth will have specific PvP zones.. Champions PvP should also be fun if there is any, I expect mini-games from Champions. But it is the game mechanics which makes combat fun.. Do you want some spamfest where whoever is able to spam their keys the fastest, wins? Like in WoW, you just spam your abilities on one target, and you watch your character perform his attacks.. Or do you want something real, something where you feel that heat of battle? Darkfall and EVE are those games in my opinion. WAR PvP was okay, but if they had real time combat, it would have been freakin awesome...
Real Time Combat and FPS Combat are the future of MMO combat.. Single player MMO's use real time combat, they pretty much all do.. It's time to head into the future when it comes to MMO's.. The horrible graphics and gameplay really need to stop, and advance into where modern console games are going.
In Eve don't you basically hit a button that sets off a series of commands and targetting abilites? Don't in fact many players use macro's to make this easier? Switch your rail gun for a bow and you've basically got the same things going on.
WoW is shitty pvp. Again I repeat WoW is shitty pvp. DaoC had great pvp because you didn't just spam abilities if you wanted to be good. Did a lot of people spam keys? Yep, and they were shitty players. What made daoc pvp good were reactionaries, positionals, kiting and the interrupt code, group mechanics and reliance on others.
The idea that any video game does not involve button mashing or spamming on the keyboard is a moot argument. They all to some degree have their version of button mashing. Even darkfall has people just jumping around and left clicking the moust swinging a sword wildly, but their stamina usage will go through the roof, which helps distance thegood players who regulate stamina usage against those who don't.
I hate forced PvP hate it with a frothing blinding fury. If a game has forced PvP like UO did (where you can be ganked for just lumberjacking a few feet outside town) they loose a costomer. If i'm going to PVP i want it to be option not "oh well your playing so that means your pvpin"
It's only forced if someone is at the game store and makes you purchase the game.
Basically you prefer consensual pvp or pve and pvp zones separated.
funny i dont recall ever reading on the box "we hat nubies, you will be slaughter within 5 seconds i leaving any town by a lvl 50 uber leet...repedely"
Well, I only got to page 7 but here are my thougths;
First off, I thought the article was a bit bland. Sorry Garret.
Secondly, One person's pvp greatness is another's boredom or frustration.
Part of the problem with any pvp game is that you need all people involved to be on board with the scenario.
One part of the article that was a bit terrible was the statement that he couldn't understand why more games didn't include it. What's not to understand? There are people who hate it. Depending on the demographic the game devs are going for they very well might be trying for a broader demographic. Which seems a bit interesting as....
Most people in games DO pvp.
As a previous poster stated, chess, monopoly, card games, all these are pvp games. Quite a broad group of people meet to play these games all the time. Yet, when it comes to pvp in a vidoe game, especially an mmo, people balk.
And I think that's because in mmo's it tends to cross the line from simple objective to the realm of personal. I've noticed the general atmosphere in a game such as guild wars or a Warhammer scenario is different than the whole ganking or pk'ing scenario.
That is because all attendents are on board with what is going to happen. They are, for the most part, fine with winning or losing as that is what they showed up to do. But when one brings in the larger ideas of holding a dungeon only for one alliance or pk'ing someone out xp'ing or gathering then suddenly there are issues.
I think that's because people forget the key idea that whenever they log into such a game they are essentially pulling up their chair at a chess board or logging into their favorite fps to do battle.
Part of the problem is that mmo's are interesting for many other reasons, part of that is the living world with so many different people and part of that is that offer such various types of gameplay. So they are attractive to different types of people.
There is a vast difference between a previous poster who said (paraphrased) "I pvp to piss people off" and another person who pvp's becasue he/she sees it as the same as getting out a deck of cards or brining out the monopoly game.
The first scenario is about something completely different than the second scenario as the first one has the tendency for all invovled to forget that it's a game where the second scenario is that it's all about being a game.
This is not to say that people don't hate losing at monopoly. But that for the most part all are, on the surface willing participants.
Technically, in a pvp game everyone should be a wiliing participant but that is not the case since these games attract people for different reasons.
It is only when all involved are on board with what is about to happen that things tend to run smoothly.
However, in the case of Mr. "I like to piss people off", I've met similar people who when givng it are very happy but can be outright miserable when they are pk'ed. I am not saying that all people who like to pk are like this but I do find it rather amusing when they get as good as they give and they cry for hours about it.
At this point then where is the game part?
This comes to the crux of pvp in games. When does it cease becoming a game? For some it never does. for some they don't want anything to do with the pvp portion of the game. And for some, their pvp involvement really is about something else in their lives.
pvp ONLY works when all involved are on board and when all involved know where the lines are. Or can recognize and accept that there are no lines.
Oh, for the record, I prefer huge group pvp battles.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I mostly prefer FPS (like Battlefield series) or Strategy Games (Combat Command, MOO, Advanced Tactics WWII) to do PvP with..... MMO's (with few exceptions - WWII Online) typicaly aren't well designed or well suited for PvP.
I've done it occasionaly in MMO's that have offered it..... and it can sometimes be fun...but mostly I avoid it...as FPS and Strategy games offer a much richer experience in that regard.
Unfortunately in MMO's PvP seems far too often to devolve into "ganking" ...... and even where it's not it often delvolves into a measure of who's CPU is sputtering less, who can spam key clicks faster or who's spent more hours grinding levels/gear.
The reason why people tend to equate PvPers with "gankers" or griefers in MMO's is simple........ "Gankers" and griefers tend to gravitate toward PvP (even in games where PvP isn't part of the design intention of the game). It's probably true that the vast majority of PvPers are generaly nice folks who don't "gank" or grief at all. However, it's also unfortunately true that almost all "gankers" or greifers are PvPers (and tend to be vocal ones at that). Thus people tend to (rightly or wrongly) form that association between the two.
I'm kind of player that in PvE world like to help others in trouble ... not making their problems even worse. I hate gankers and ganking ... etc. Only two times I enjoyed PvP was actually revenge, when in daily quest in WoW one player killed my mage, not knowing that in same area I have also my druid. I got him two times in a row with my alt. My hart was pumping really hard at that time and at the end I was really satisfied. :-)) But except for revenge in this case I never felt any pleasure jumping on throat of other players. This is something completely dfiferent like i.e. winning in tennis match, or box, ... or ....
Actually the only exception is Warhammer, where I partecipated pretty regularly in various events ... I liked it, for the first time, ... but again ... I'm kind of player that belongs to PvE world.
I like to pvp for 2 reasons. One it's more of a challenge going against other players because you don't know their gear or their play style so there is no single strategy that works every time against every class. Two, raiding is boring to me. Doing the same dungeon 4 days a week to "maybe" get a piece of gear, where I can do a battleground and get gear almost as good is the better alternative for me. That way if I want to watch a movie, tv show, or play another video game or just do something else, I can and not have to feel obligated to a 'second job' of raiding.
My exact thoughts. I also really the intensity and unpredictablity of pvp. :-)
There really needs to be a server of another type. As WoW has Normal (or PvE), RP, and PvP servers, there really needs to be a fourth type. A DB server. Pretend it stands for "Death Blow" or something else designed to get wankers up in arms, but the real definition is "Douche Bag". Create these DB servers and just open them up. No moderation of any kind, not of names, chat channels, language, actions - true open-world PvP. Let's just see the depths of human depravity when shielded by mouse and keyboard.
In games like DAoC, where PvP has a reason, it can be fun. And it makes perfect sense that people would want to test themselves against real people rather than an AI. But if people are really "killers" as you suggest, Garrett, then they should be salivating like dogs over an unregulated opportunity to go back to their "roots". I'd argue Schadenfraude is more a part of your typical PvPer's mindset than any "personal pride" or "bloodlust" bullshit. Most people who engage in it want to make someone else's day bad, and have no other outlet than online games. And it has nothing to do with the individual's personal circumstances. Some people just find MMOs a grand chance to release their inner dickhead.
no pvpv here. i dont like the idea to harm another people in any kind.
but were all sheeps or wolfs. some just like to eat and be happy, other wanna hunt and kill.
PvP is not about harming anyone else. Though that is the ignorant assumption the writer of this article has based it on. You need to open your mind and learn a little more about what PvP actually is and why people who like it do so. Read my post above if your interested in exploring a different point of view and not just boxing yourself into some prejudiced view of something you haven't experienced or understand.
You try to explain to him that people who don't play PvP are not what everyone suspects them to be. Then you go on to verbally insult him???
Way to make your point.
Ya, my frustration got the better of me. There is only so much ignorance one can handle.
I hate forced PvP hate it with a frothing blinding fury. If a game has forced PvP like UO did (where you can be ganked for just lumberjacking a few feet outside town) they loose a costomer. If i'm going to PVP i want it to be option not "oh well your playing so that means your pvpin"
It's only forced if someone is at the game store and makes you purchase the game.
Basically you prefer consensual pvp or pve and pvp zones separated.
funny i dont recall ever reading on the box "we hat nubies, you will be slaughter within 5 seconds i leaving any town by a lvl 50 uber leet...repedely"
Aside from the actual box, you have magazines, books, websites, forums, and the desk clerk at any store that can provide you more than enough information to get an idea of what type of game it is before you buy it. If you just bought the game without learning what it is you actuall purchased, that is your fault.
but brainless ganking and forcing his own will to other players ( NO QUESTING FOR YOU HERE! ) is no fun at all ! its just retarded...
I fail to see how this is retarded. If you do not wish to risk being PKed then please play a game/server that does not allow PKing or PvP.
You fail to see how it is retarded because you have some mental issues where you get satisfaction from hurting other people, believe it is called sadism, but for normal, non sadistic people, it is retarded.
PKing is not the same as PvP but rather a subset of it.
Most (and I mean a huge most) people have at least a small degree of empathy for other people. We want to not only improve our own lives, but we would like to use some of our energy in life to improve others as well. Even people we may not be directly familiar with.
Yes, I play games to entertain myself. But I do not want to ruin someone else's experience to gain my own satisfaction. What I would rather play is a game that sets the players up on as level as possible of a playing field. That way when you do lose from time to time you can at least acknowledge the other players skill, and that makes it actually a lot more enjoyable that losing with no chance of defense. I also would not put down a player who lost to me. I would instead get more satisfaction out of perhaps respectfully pointing out things I might of noticed that caused them to lose so they can improve themselves.
I can't help but think your behavior is a symptom of something else deep seated in your psyche. I admit, this could be just one aspect of your life where you behave this way, but I'm betting it manifests itself in other places as well.
I hate forced PvP hate it with a frothing blinding fury. If a game has forced PvP like UO did (where you can be ganked for just lumberjacking a few feet outside town) they loose a costomer. If i'm going to PVP i want it to be option not "oh well your playing so that means your pvpin"
It's only forced if someone is at the game store and makes you purchase the game.
Basically you prefer consensual pvp or pve and pvp zones separated.
funny i dont recall ever reading on the box "we hat nubies, you will be slaughter within 5 seconds i leaving any town by a lvl 50 uber leet...repedely"
Aside from the actual box, you have magazines, books, websites, forums, and the desk clerk at any store that can provide you more than enough information to get an idea of what type of game it is before you buy it. If you just bought the game without learning what it is you actuall purchased, that is your fault.
um this was back in the late/mid 90s doof, not 2007
Unfortunitly this applies to most Pvper's I've seen. They don't want the challenge, the testing against a human opponet. They just want the unloseable battle they can crow about. Offer them a fair fight or even one where there's a chance they'll lose and then it's no thank you time for them.
Probably the best & worst game I've seen was PotBS. Concept wise the reason for having Pvp was excellent, you were attacking a port, other guy was trying to protect it. Execution wise sucked. Ports put into Pvp for no other reason than to piss people off be they the owners or lowbies trying to quest in them. Once in a port, no real way to get out, heavy frustration factor.
Most 'battles' were just 6 vs 1 ganks. Sometimes you could get lucky in the more out of the way spots and get actual fights going.
The most fun I ever had was a 3 (them) vs 2 (us - The Spanish Armada) and we chased them off with heavy damage using tactics.
Unfortunitly this applies to most Pvper's I've seen. They don't want the challenge, the testing against a human opponet. They just want the unloseable battle they can crow about. Offer them a fair fight or even one where there's a chance they'll lose and then it's no thank you time for them.
Probably the best & worst game I've seen was PotBS. Concept wise the reason for having Pvp was excellent, you were attacking a port, other guy was trying to protect it. Execution wise sucked. Ports put into Pvp for no other reason than to piss people off be they the owners or lowbies trying to quest in them. Once in a port, no real way to get out, heavy frustration factor.
Most 'battles' were just 6 vs 1 ganks. Sometimes you could get lucky in the more out of the way spots and get actual fights going.
The most fun I ever had was a 3 (them) vs 2 (us - The Spanish Armada) and we chased them off with heavy damage using tactics.
amen, i wonder how many of these PvPers would like it if i started a systematic live action hunt for them "its fun killing people with my high powered scoped sniper rifle for realz, lol...gamer newbs"
Unfortunitly this applies to most Pvper's I've seen. They don't want the challenge, the testing against a human opponet. They just want the unloseable battle they can crow about. Offer them a fair fight or even one where there's a chance they'll lose and then it's no thank you time for them.
Probably the best & worst game I've seen was PotBS. Concept wise the reason for having Pvp was excellent, you were attacking a port, other guy was trying to protect it. Execution wise sucked. Ports put into Pvp for no other reason than to piss people off be they the owners or lowbies trying to quest in them. Once in a port, no real way to get out, heavy frustration factor.
Most 'battles' were just 6 vs 1 ganks. Sometimes you could get lucky in the more out of the way spots and get actual fights going.
The most fun I ever had was a 3 (them) vs 2 (us - The Spanish Armada) and we chased them off with heavy damage using tactics.
amen, i wonder how many of these PvPers would like it if i started a systematic live action hunt for them "its fun killing people with my high powered scoped sniper rifle for realz, lol...gamer newbs"
Guys, guys, guys...
We just managed to differentiate between a "PK" and a "PvP" a few pages back so please don't insult the good folks with using a bad identifier on them. You're probably talking about PK's rather than PvP-ers.
PvP = Player versus player which implies a certain equality, fairness and sportsmanship. When you PvP you compete with other player(s) directly, in a way that is friendly and amiable. Just like you dont hate and want to "grief" the guys you invited over for a game of monopoly or risk.
PK = Player Killer, which implies unfairness and even sadism. These are the guys out to grief other people through PvP, especially in game situations where PvP is not really a part of the game. They are not in it to share fun with their game opponents but get their kicks through real or perceived hurt they mete out to those unfortunate enough to play the same game as them. That's your basic ganker right there.
.. so please don't start another flame war with throwing careless identifiers around. I agree with all you said, just substitute PvP with PK - there are good folks out there who like to PvP but wouldn't want to be equated with gankers and such.
Just to offer another point of view; I never pvp. Never. I played Wow for four years, turned down challenges from others dozens of levels below mine, refused duels even from guildmates, etc. For me, I don't feel good about winning a fight with another player, and I certainly don't feel good about losing one. And, while I'm not trying to sway anyone's opinion, to me, open world pvp'ing is the equivalent of online bullying. For those that enjoy pvp, have fun. Personally, I'd like to see at least one MMO where there was no form of PvP whatsoever.
In many ways I agree with you. I too do not appreciate PvP in it's current forms and think that your turn "bullying" is an exact fit. I have played some PvP over the years and generally find it more annoying, than entertaining.
So many games are geared towards PK and gankfests. These types of PvP are simply NOT fun. The people at the top of the heap are generally the only ones that have "fun" and in order to get to the top, you have to fight through the sludge for weeks getting pissed off and tossing things around the room in real life. Then you have to focus so hard to stay at the top, that you have no time to do anything else.
What I hate about PvP is, losing gear...period. Losing gear that took ages to get or craft or whatever, is a serious turn off to me. (read more below on my suggestion to fix this)
What I don't mind about PvP is, capture the flag type of scenarios. However, many of them are no longer fun as they are more like a herd of cattle running from one end to the other rather than any strategy.
What I like about PvP is, gaining titles and gear for accomplishments. NOT simply kills, but TYPES of kills that involve strategy to accomplish. Can you imagine getting a piece of gear for being the top rated fireball tosser? Or maybe the best DoT healer?
I will not play a game that only has PvP. This is a gankfest waiting to happen. I will consider a game that has an "option" for PvP or arena type challenges. I will choose a game with PvP if my entertainment is in my control and I can decide what style of PvP I want to be involved with (if any).
Honestly, I don't care how many "kills" someone has against my realm. Even though the person may have truly worked hard, used strategy and been honorable...I don't see that. What I see is this person is likely a PK jerk. This is not the players fault, it's the developer for building games over the years that made us feel this way.
I would prefer to see what isnt so obvious, like...how many times they used a particular skill. That gives me the chance to use some strategy when I face off with him/her (useful for arena styles). Lets see, they tend to use fireball alot, ok...what is something I can use to defend myself etc.
Maybe PvP should be different each time you play, maybe only a random set of skills will be useable. Thereby giving everyone a handicap, forcing them to use their minds instead of just their guns/swords/fists. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying take away important skills, but rather, have skill pools. Each player can select which skills they want in the pools, those are the skills that may, or may not come up when involving themselves in PvP. It will be random. Can you imagine if you are a Mage and suddenly you only have direct damage spells to use and no DoT's? That would surely make life more interesting.
Don't take my gear. Not my PvE gear at least. If you want to have players drop gear, then give them PvP gear they switch to, that they earn and that...and ONLY that, can be taken from them.
In general, this is my play time, my entertainment. Choices belong there and I should never feel forced to do anything. PvP is a different mindset and in order to make it fun, changes need to be made. Yes, some of you like it the way it is. That's great, but... in order for the developers to gain the market of us out here, that DONT feel the same way, they need to make changes.
We just managed to differentiate between a "PK" and a "PvP" a few pages back so please don't insult the good folks with using a bad identifier on them. You're probably talking about PK's rather than PvP-ers.
PvP = Player versus player which implies a certain equality, fairness and sportsmanship. When you PvP you compete with other player(s) directly, in a way that is friendly and amiable. Just like you dont hate and want to "grief" the guys you invited over for a game of monopoly or risk.
PK = Player Killer, which implies unfairness and even sadism. These are the guys out to grief other people through PvP, especially in game situations where PvP is not really a part of the game. They are not in it to share fun with their game opponents but get their kicks through real or perceived hurt they mete out to those unfortunate enough to play the same game as them. That's your basic ganker right there.
.. so please don't start another flame war with throwing careless identifiers around. I agree with all you said, just substitute PvP with PK - there are good folks out there who like to PvP but wouldn't want to be equated with gankers and such.
Sorry if I missed that and came to the party late.
The problem I see is those that DO PK don't, won't identify themselves as such but will carry on the tired refrain 'but I'm just Pvp'ing' or 'the game supports such actions'. Either way it's wrong.
You may call them gankers and some of them will even have the balls to own up to it, but most won't and will just say they're Pvp'er's and as someone previously pointed out it IS a form (just a bad one) of Pvp.
I'd kill greys, I'd kill anyone leveling in my frontier, any level. Because you didn't level in my frontier.
If I was in your frontier or DF I'd kill you. Because I wanted your corpse to serve as bait for the bigboys and girls to come out and play. That being said, I wouldn't kill the same greys over and over in their frontier. Once or twice just to pick a fight.
Today's pvp now, is a joke in most games. It's put in as an afterthought like running around one small zone, bg, scenario is going to satisfy that true pvp thrill.
Open world pvp is sucks too because it's just high levels camping lowlevels. They aren't picking a fight so more players will come to fight, they're just taking advantage of an opportunity to kill someone.I don't blame the player for this. I blame the companies that cannot understand what pvp'rs are really looking for and why people who don't pvp won't ever enjoy it with the current systems.
It's a very sad state of affairs because I really feel that many anti-pvp'rs given the right setting, mechanics, and reason for it, would see pvp and find at least a little bit of the excitement I, and others like me, find in it.
Comments
Decent article. I enjoy PvP in both purpose and kill forms, though only when done maturely in the latter scenario. When I win, no matter how easily I did so, I always treat that person with respect, and I certainly don't camp his respawn to kill him/her over and over again. I might even /bow. Opposite, when I lose, I don't /shout what a cheap skill-less bastard he is, or that he haxx, or that "I lagged lol."
I think if people were more mature in the gaming environment, more would enjoy PvP in all its forms. My favorite is still purpose-driven PvP though; I admit, having some trophy to show off is nice.
Never said ego wasn't allowed, just stupidity ;D
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
The world we live in today leaves very little room for the wide open beat down of an opponent outside of hockey. - Garrett Fuller
Best quote ever!
Shiyan
I am actually currently playing Darkfall myself, I am really enjoying PvP in this game as it is not a feature in Darkfall.. The feature was freedom from gameplay that didn't make sense, this makes the PvP much more imserive. The naval combat, the wars, the 100 vs 100 man raids to try and take each others towns, the full loot, the penalties for killing other players which prevents griefing in the beginning.. The only other games where I truly enjoyed PvP like it was EVE and UO(back in the day) I never played DaOC. But games where it is basically a spamfest, click and watch, is kinda annoying. Darkfall PvP somewhat takes skill, you manually block, dodge and there is no targetting, you have to aim.. The game itself though lacks much content, lacks PvE, the world is very, very empty, towns are very, very barren, and you literally have no social life in Darkfall, but the PVP gets 10.0 from me. Everything else is meh... More games should follows this kind of path though, it seems a few un-released games like Earthrise, Mortal Online, Face of Mankind, Afterworld, are probably going to follow this path, and Fallen Earth will have specific PvP zones.. Champions PvP should also be fun if there is any, I expect mini-games from Champions. But it is the game mechanics which makes combat fun.. Do you want some spamfest where whoever is able to spam their keys the fastest, wins? Like in WoW, you just spam your abilities on one target, and you watch your character perform his attacks.. Or do you want something real, something where you feel that heat of battle? Darkfall and EVE are those games in my opinion. WAR PvP was okay, but if they had real time combat, it would have been freakin awesome...
Real Time Combat and FPS Combat are the future of MMO combat.. Single player MMO's use real time combat, they pretty much all do.. It's time to head into the future when it comes to MMO's.. The horrible graphics and gameplay really need to stop, and advance into where modern console games are going.
Sometimes I like to test myself against other players in games is why I pvp. I dont do it all the time as some games havent balanced the pvp aspect of thier games. They keep trying to tweek things and it still never seems to work out.
Played : WOW, LOTRO, COH/COV, EQ2, SWG, and WAR.
Playing EVE Online and AOC.
Wtg for SW:TOR and WOD
In Eve don't you basically hit a button that sets off a series of commands and targetting abilites? Don't in fact many players use macro's to make this easier? Switch your rail gun for a bow and you've basically got the same things going on.
WoW is shitty pvp. Again I repeat WoW is shitty pvp. DaoC had great pvp because you didn't just spam abilities if you wanted to be good. Did a lot of people spam keys? Yep, and they were shitty players. What made daoc pvp good were reactionaries, positionals, kiting and the interrupt code, group mechanics and reliance on others.
The idea that any video game does not involve button mashing or spamming on the keyboard is a moot argument. They all to some degree have their version of button mashing. Even darkfall has people just jumping around and left clicking the moust swinging a sword wildly, but their stamina usage will go through the roof, which helps distance thegood players who regulate stamina usage against those who don't.
It's only forced if someone is at the game store and makes you purchase the game.
Basically you prefer consensual pvp or pve and pvp zones separated.
funny i dont recall ever reading on the box "we hat nubies, you will be slaughter within 5 seconds i leaving any town by a lvl 50 uber leet...repedely"
I like PVP but it can (and does) get just as boring as PVE (especially zerg based pvp)
Well, I only got to page 7 but here are my thougths;
First off, I thought the article was a bit bland. Sorry Garret.
Secondly, One person's pvp greatness is another's boredom or frustration.
Part of the problem with any pvp game is that you need all people involved to be on board with the scenario.
One part of the article that was a bit terrible was the statement that he couldn't understand why more games didn't include it. What's not to understand? There are people who hate it. Depending on the demographic the game devs are going for they very well might be trying for a broader demographic. Which seems a bit interesting as....
Most people in games DO pvp.
As a previous poster stated, chess, monopoly, card games, all these are pvp games. Quite a broad group of people meet to play these games all the time. Yet, when it comes to pvp in a vidoe game, especially an mmo, people balk.
And I think that's because in mmo's it tends to cross the line from simple objective to the realm of personal. I've noticed the general atmosphere in a game such as guild wars or a Warhammer scenario is different than the whole ganking or pk'ing scenario.
That is because all attendents are on board with what is going to happen. They are, for the most part, fine with winning or losing as that is what they showed up to do. But when one brings in the larger ideas of holding a dungeon only for one alliance or pk'ing someone out xp'ing or gathering then suddenly there are issues.
I think that's because people forget the key idea that whenever they log into such a game they are essentially pulling up their chair at a chess board or logging into their favorite fps to do battle.
Part of the problem is that mmo's are interesting for many other reasons, part of that is the living world with so many different people and part of that is that offer such various types of gameplay. So they are attractive to different types of people.
There is a vast difference between a previous poster who said (paraphrased) "I pvp to piss people off" and another person who pvp's becasue he/she sees it as the same as getting out a deck of cards or brining out the monopoly game.
The first scenario is about something completely different than the second scenario as the first one has the tendency for all invovled to forget that it's a game where the second scenario is that it's all about being a game.
This is not to say that people don't hate losing at monopoly. But that for the most part all are, on the surface willing participants.
Technically, in a pvp game everyone should be a wiliing participant but that is not the case since these games attract people for different reasons.
It is only when all involved are on board with what is about to happen that things tend to run smoothly.
However, in the case of Mr. "I like to piss people off", I've met similar people who when givng it are very happy but can be outright miserable when they are pk'ed. I am not saying that all people who like to pk are like this but I do find it rather amusing when they get as good as they give and they cry for hours about it.
At this point then where is the game part?
This comes to the crux of pvp in games. When does it cease becoming a game? For some it never does. for some they don't want anything to do with the pvp portion of the game. And for some, their pvp involvement really is about something else in their lives.
pvp ONLY works when all involved are on board and when all involved know where the lines are. Or can recognize and accept that there are no lines.
Oh, for the record, I prefer huge group pvp battles.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I mostly prefer FPS (like Battlefield series) or Strategy Games (Combat Command, MOO, Advanced Tactics WWII) to do PvP with..... MMO's (with few exceptions - WWII Online) typicaly aren't well designed or well suited for PvP.
I've done it occasionaly in MMO's that have offered it..... and it can sometimes be fun...but mostly I avoid it...as FPS and Strategy games offer a much richer experience in that regard.
Unfortunately in MMO's PvP seems far too often to devolve into "ganking" ...... and even where it's not it often delvolves into a measure of who's CPU is sputtering less, who can spam key clicks faster or who's spent more hours grinding levels/gear.
The reason why people tend to equate PvPers with "gankers" or griefers in MMO's is simple........ "Gankers" and griefers tend to gravitate toward PvP (even in games where PvP isn't part of the design intention of the game). It's probably true that the vast majority of PvPers are generaly nice folks who don't "gank" or grief at all. However, it's also unfortunately true that almost all "gankers" or greifers are PvPers (and tend to be vocal ones at that). Thus people tend to (rightly or wrongly) form that association between the two.
I'm kind of player that in PvE world like to help others in trouble ... not making their problems even worse. I hate gankers and ganking ... etc. Only two times I enjoyed PvP was actually revenge, when in daily quest in WoW one player killed my mage, not knowing that in same area I have also my druid. I got him two times in a row with my alt. My hart was pumping really hard at that time and at the end I was really satisfied. :-)) But except for revenge in this case I never felt any pleasure jumping on throat of other players. This is something completely dfiferent like i.e. winning in tennis match, or box, ... or ....
Actually the only exception is Warhammer, where I partecipated pretty regularly in various events ... I liked it, for the first time, ... but again ... I'm kind of player that belongs to PvE world.
My exact thoughts. I also really the intensity and unpredictablity of pvp. :-)
"I play Tera for the gameplay"
There really needs to be a server of another type. As WoW has Normal (or PvE), RP, and PvP servers, there really needs to be a fourth type. A DB server. Pretend it stands for "Death Blow" or something else designed to get wankers up in arms, but the real definition is "Douche Bag". Create these DB servers and just open them up. No moderation of any kind, not of names, chat channels, language, actions - true open-world PvP. Let's just see the depths of human depravity when shielded by mouse and keyboard.
In games like DAoC, where PvP has a reason, it can be fun. And it makes perfect sense that people would want to test themselves against real people rather than an AI. But if people are really "killers" as you suggest, Garrett, then they should be salivating like dogs over an unregulated opportunity to go back to their "roots". I'd argue Schadenfraude is more a part of your typical PvPer's mindset than any "personal pride" or "bloodlust" bullshit. Most people who engage in it want to make someone else's day bad, and have no other outlet than online games. And it has nothing to do with the individual's personal circumstances. Some people just find MMOs a grand chance to release their inner dickhead.
There's a sucker born every minute. - P.T. Barnum
PvP is not about harming anyone else. Though that is the ignorant assumption the writer of this article has based it on. You need to open your mind and learn a little more about what PvP actually is and why people who like it do so. Read my post above if your interested in exploring a different point of view and not just boxing yourself into some prejudiced view of something you haven't experienced or understand.
You try to explain to him that people who don't play PvP are not what everyone suspects them to be. Then you go on to verbally insult him???
Way to make your point.
Ya, my frustration got the better of me. There is only so much ignorance one can handle.
You did it again!!!
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Psychiatrist
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Psychiatrist
i wonder, if i sneak into his house, holda gun to his head then kick his puppy would he find that fun?
That what it like when a PvPer greivs a guy -10 or more levels under him.
It's only forced if someone is at the game store and makes you purchase the game.
Basically you prefer consensual pvp or pve and pvp zones separated.
funny i dont recall ever reading on the box "we hat nubies, you will be slaughter within 5 seconds i leaving any town by a lvl 50 uber leet...repedely"
Aside from the actual box, you have magazines, books, websites, forums, and the desk clerk at any store that can provide you more than enough information to get an idea of what type of game it is before you buy it. If you just bought the game without learning what it is you actuall purchased, that is your fault.
I fail to see how this is retarded. If you do not wish to risk being PKed then please play a game/server that does not allow PKing or PvP.
You fail to see how it is retarded because you have some mental issues where you get satisfaction from hurting other people, believe it is called sadism, but for normal, non sadistic people, it is retarded.
PKing is not the same as PvP but rather a subset of it.
Most (and I mean a huge most) people have at least a small degree of empathy for other people. We want to not only improve our own lives, but we would like to use some of our energy in life to improve others as well. Even people we may not be directly familiar with.
Yes, I play games to entertain myself. But I do not want to ruin someone else's experience to gain my own satisfaction. What I would rather play is a game that sets the players up on as level as possible of a playing field. That way when you do lose from time to time you can at least acknowledge the other players skill, and that makes it actually a lot more enjoyable that losing with no chance of defense. I also would not put down a player who lost to me. I would instead get more satisfaction out of perhaps respectfully pointing out things I might of noticed that caused them to lose so they can improve themselves.
I can't help but think your behavior is a symptom of something else deep seated in your psyche. I admit, this could be just one aspect of your life where you behave this way, but I'm betting it manifests itself in other places as well.
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It's only forced if someone is at the game store and makes you purchase the game.
Basically you prefer consensual pvp or pve and pvp zones separated.
funny i dont recall ever reading on the box "we hat nubies, you will be slaughter within 5 seconds i leaving any town by a lvl 50 uber leet...repedely"
Aside from the actual box, you have magazines, books, websites, forums, and the desk clerk at any store that can provide you more than enough information to get an idea of what type of game it is before you buy it. If you just bought the game without learning what it is you actuall purchased, that is your fault.
um this was back in the late/mid 90s doof, not 2007
Things were different back then.
Do you rember the late 90s?
Unfortunitly this applies to most Pvper's I've seen. They don't want the challenge, the testing against a human opponet. They just want the unloseable battle they can crow about. Offer them a fair fight or even one where there's a chance they'll lose and then it's no thank you time for them.
Probably the best & worst game I've seen was PotBS. Concept wise the reason for having Pvp was excellent, you were attacking a port, other guy was trying to protect it. Execution wise sucked. Ports put into Pvp for no other reason than to piss people off be they the owners or lowbies trying to quest in them. Once in a port, no real way to get out, heavy frustration factor.
Most 'battles' were just 6 vs 1 ganks. Sometimes you could get lucky in the more out of the way spots and get actual fights going.
The most fun I ever had was a 3 (them) vs 2 (us - The Spanish Armada) and we chased them off with heavy damage using tactics.
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter
Unfortunitly this applies to most Pvper's I've seen. They don't want the challenge, the testing against a human opponet. They just want the unloseable battle they can crow about. Offer them a fair fight or even one where there's a chance they'll lose and then it's no thank you time for them.
Probably the best & worst game I've seen was PotBS. Concept wise the reason for having Pvp was excellent, you were attacking a port, other guy was trying to protect it. Execution wise sucked. Ports put into Pvp for no other reason than to piss people off be they the owners or lowbies trying to quest in them. Once in a port, no real way to get out, heavy frustration factor.
Most 'battles' were just 6 vs 1 ganks. Sometimes you could get lucky in the more out of the way spots and get actual fights going.
The most fun I ever had was a 3 (them) vs 2 (us - The Spanish Armada) and we chased them off with heavy damage using tactics.
amen, i wonder how many of these PvPers would like it if i started a systematic live action hunt for them "its fun killing people with my high powered scoped sniper rifle for realz, lol...gamer newbs"
Unfortunitly this applies to most Pvper's I've seen. They don't want the challenge, the testing against a human opponet. They just want the unloseable battle they can crow about. Offer them a fair fight or even one where there's a chance they'll lose and then it's no thank you time for them.
Probably the best & worst game I've seen was PotBS. Concept wise the reason for having Pvp was excellent, you were attacking a port, other guy was trying to protect it. Execution wise sucked. Ports put into Pvp for no other reason than to piss people off be they the owners or lowbies trying to quest in them. Once in a port, no real way to get out, heavy frustration factor.
Most 'battles' were just 6 vs 1 ganks. Sometimes you could get lucky in the more out of the way spots and get actual fights going.
The most fun I ever had was a 3 (them) vs 2 (us - The Spanish Armada) and we chased them off with heavy damage using tactics.
amen, i wonder how many of these PvPers would like it if i started a systematic live action hunt for them "its fun killing people with my high powered scoped sniper rifle for realz, lol...gamer newbs"
Guys, guys, guys...
We just managed to differentiate between a "PK" and a "PvP" a few pages back so please don't insult the good folks with using a bad identifier on them. You're probably talking about PK's rather than PvP-ers.
PvP = Player versus player which implies a certain equality, fairness and sportsmanship. When you PvP you compete with other player(s) directly, in a way that is friendly and amiable. Just like you dont hate and want to "grief" the guys you invited over for a game of monopoly or risk.
PK = Player Killer, which implies unfairness and even sadism. These are the guys out to grief other people through PvP, especially in game situations where PvP is not really a part of the game. They are not in it to share fun with their game opponents but get their kicks through real or perceived hurt they mete out to those unfortunate enough to play the same game as them. That's your basic ganker right there.
.. so please don't start another flame war with throwing careless identifiers around. I agree with all you said, just substitute PvP with PK - there are good folks out there who like to PvP but wouldn't want to be equated with gankers and such.
In many ways I agree with you. I too do not appreciate PvP in it's current forms and think that your turn "bullying" is an exact fit. I have played some PvP over the years and generally find it more annoying, than entertaining.
So many games are geared towards PK and gankfests. These types of PvP are simply NOT fun. The people at the top of the heap are generally the only ones that have "fun" and in order to get to the top, you have to fight through the sludge for weeks getting pissed off and tossing things around the room in real life. Then you have to focus so hard to stay at the top, that you have no time to do anything else.
I will not play a game that only has PvP. This is a gankfest waiting to happen. I will consider a game that has an "option" for PvP or arena type challenges. I will choose a game with PvP if my entertainment is in my control and I can decide what style of PvP I want to be involved with (if any).
Honestly, I don't care how many "kills" someone has against my realm. Even though the person may have truly worked hard, used strategy and been honorable...I don't see that. What I see is this person is likely a PK jerk. This is not the players fault, it's the developer for building games over the years that made us feel this way.
I would prefer to see what isnt so obvious, like...how many times they used a particular skill. That gives me the chance to use some strategy when I face off with him/her (useful for arena styles). Lets see, they tend to use fireball alot, ok...what is something I can use to defend myself etc.
Maybe PvP should be different each time you play, maybe only a random set of skills will be useable. Thereby giving everyone a handicap, forcing them to use their minds instead of just their guns/swords/fists. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying take away important skills, but rather, have skill pools. Each player can select which skills they want in the pools, those are the skills that may, or may not come up when involving themselves in PvP. It will be random. Can you imagine if you are a Mage and suddenly you only have direct damage spells to use and no DoT's? That would surely make life more interesting.
Don't take my gear. Not my PvE gear at least. If you want to have players drop gear, then give them PvP gear they switch to, that they earn and that...and ONLY that, can be taken from them.
In general, this is my play time, my entertainment. Choices belong there and I should never feel forced to do anything. PvP is a different mindset and in order to make it fun, changes need to be made. Yes, some of you like it the way it is. That's great, but... in order for the developers to gain the market of us out here, that DONT feel the same way, they need to make changes.
Why yes, yes I do. Books and the internet existed back then. Apparently you didn't learn to read until after the year 2000.
We just managed to differentiate between a "PK" and a "PvP" a few pages back so please don't insult the good folks with using a bad identifier on them. You're probably talking about PK's rather than PvP-ers.
PvP = Player versus player which implies a certain equality, fairness and sportsmanship. When you PvP you compete with other player(s) directly, in a way that is friendly and amiable. Just like you dont hate and want to "grief" the guys you invited over for a game of monopoly or risk.
PK = Player Killer, which implies unfairness and even sadism. These are the guys out to grief other people through PvP, especially in game situations where PvP is not really a part of the game. They are not in it to share fun with their game opponents but get their kicks through real or perceived hurt they mete out to those unfortunate enough to play the same game as them. That's your basic ganker right there.
.. so please don't start another flame war with throwing careless identifiers around. I agree with all you said, just substitute PvP with PK - there are good folks out there who like to PvP but wouldn't want to be equated with gankers and such.
Sorry if I missed that and came to the party late.
The problem I see is those that DO PK don't, won't identify themselves as such but will carry on the tired refrain 'but I'm just Pvp'ing' or 'the game supports such actions'. Either way it's wrong.
You may call them gankers and some of them will even have the balls to own up to it, but most won't and will just say they're Pvp'er's and as someone previously pointed out it IS a form (just a bad one) of Pvp.
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter
I was a PK'r in daoc.
I'd kill greys, I'd kill anyone leveling in my frontier, any level. Because you didn't level in my frontier.
If I was in your frontier or DF I'd kill you. Because I wanted your corpse to serve as bait for the bigboys and girls to come out and play. That being said, I wouldn't kill the same greys over and over in their frontier. Once or twice just to pick a fight.
Today's pvp now, is a joke in most games. It's put in as an afterthought like running around one small zone, bg, scenario is going to satisfy that true pvp thrill.
Open world pvp is sucks too because it's just high levels camping lowlevels. They aren't picking a fight so more players will come to fight, they're just taking advantage of an opportunity to kill someone.I don't blame the player for this. I blame the companies that cannot understand what pvp'rs are really looking for and why people who don't pvp won't ever enjoy it with the current systems.
It's a very sad state of affairs because I really feel that many anti-pvp'rs given the right setting, mechanics, and reason for it, would see pvp and find at least a little bit of the excitement I, and others like me, find in it.