Expansions become the game. Usually there is a "platinum" version or something along those lines that is released which includes the original game, and all the expansions for about the price of the original game.
I don't think expanions are costly, or anything like RMT.
RMT ruins the game for me, and I won'[t play games with RMT. If you like RMT games, that's fine, different people enjoy different games.
Expansions can be ok, until eventually they also ruin the game. Best example is TOA in DAoC.
The biggest problem with expansions is they tend to add on end game or high level content much more than low level content, which makes the game to top heavy. One or two expansions is usually ok, after that they tend to skew the game towards the end game, and to continue to ad higher and higher levels and gear, which at some point become ridiculous.
RMT just makes playing the game no fun because it doesn't really satisfy you to work for something if you can just buy it, or get double xp potions, etc. I've got enough money to buy what I want in an RMT game, or always play double xp, but it just feels like cheating and takes the fun out of the game for me.
People buy expansions to experience new content. People buy RMT items to go throught the game faster than people that can't or won't buy RMT items.
An expansion is a one time fixed price while there is no such thing as cheap RMT since RMT is limitless.
If an expansion cost $60, and gives you
1) One new island.
2) 5 More Levels
3) 1 New Race
4) 1 New Class
5) 3 New Features
6) One special item
Most expansions would have more than this
and RMT shop has these things for sale:
1) One new island. $20
2) 5 More Levels $20
3) 1 New Race $6
4) 1 New Class $6
5) 3 New Features $2 each
6) One special item $2
7) 2hours Double XP for $5
Surely not all the new content would cost money as the new island could be used to advertise the new race [new race starts on new island customers explore new island and meets fascinating new race - Catgirls?].
That makes RMT cheap. Only $2 for a feature, item, and only $6 for a new class/race? That's cheap. Cheap RMT.
$60 is not cheap. Also, if the things are the same- permanent unlocks- then there is absolutely no difference between buying 1-6 at the RMT shop or buying the Expansion (except that RMT is better, because you can save money by not buying what you dont want.) I'm sorry, but RMT's have fixed prices too. It's not like Monday the Warforged race is $5, while Friday it's $10.
But according to you, the RMT is not considered cheap because you can buy #7 limitless?
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't understand your logic at all.
I See now why you are supporting RMT now you like the idea of getting a certain item instantly by paying for it rather than grinding for a long time so you can have fun faster, id say this is the core of your argument and in principle i can sympathise with this idea.
However i feel that i must point out that not everyone wants to spend lots of money just to keep up with competing players who can afford to item shop. Now you provide a comparison list in your post i have quoted but i have to say that the prices are not very realistic as for example the special item i would expect to pay at least £15 for it just because it is special.
Personally my main problem i have with RMT's is where you get ones where some essential ingame items you must have at some time in order to compete and have fun in all possable ways can only be got from the item shop. Now while its true anyone can buy one at any time and it may not even cost too much but i have to point out that not everyone can afford to buy every must have item [some games i hear have over 30 such items], great for those that can afford it!!!
Also another thing ive seen in some RMT games is item decay. As in you decide to buy a one hit wonder sword for £30 [its a really good item so worth £30], But say after a week of extensive use it starts to degrade and eventually breaks [Its programmed to be unfixable] So you need to buy it again.
Im not saying all RMT games are like the above examples but i can easilly see how even the Moderate cosmetic only RMT games could slowly add more to the RMT package when the devs see the money making potential.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
Bill Roper, is that you? RMT + subscription cost is the absolute dumbest thing I have ever seen. It is a prime example of greed if I have ever seen one. It essentially boils down to the developers developing a game that they charge a subscription for, but then taking some items out and making you pay extra for them(CO said game changing items would be available through in game means, not all items). Now the developers make new items. Where are they going to go, to the game where they have little effect on the income? Or to the cash shop where they can make money directly off of them? We both know where. The real question is, why on earth do developers need to have a cash shop on top of a subscription cost? Subscription prices easily pay for running costs and then some. When it comes down to it, with RMT + Subscripition, you are paying more money for the same game. Developers should be trying to increase their profits by making better games, not by figuring out ways to make more money off of the same games.
I agree.
What seems to be lost in this debate is why do they have to charge extra for items they already coded? It isn't like it costs them anything. They have these artists and coders on staff whether they make an RMT item or not. One could argue that paying the artist's salary is a cost, but assuming that cost is paid by the sale of the RMT item, how do they justify selling the item then?There's no warehousing, no materials cost, and no overhead to justify why they need to sell these things per unit. Yet they do.
If the cost to produce a virtual item is negligable, economics dictates that the price of the item should be equally negligable. Certainly not the prices that are charged. The items sold in the item store bring in well over 10% profit (which is considered an excellent profit margin in legit businesses). Anything more than that, and chances are, we are partaking in a scam. Go to any Wall Street brokerage house and say that something is making more than a 10% profit, and chances are, they'll be wondering when the SEC will be coming in.
Something that is far more disturbing to me than item malls is the lack of outrage concerning the practice when it is put on top of a subscription-based game. What it shows me is that there's a certain segment of the MMO-playing population that is so immersed in the fantasy, they are willing to shovel out a lot of money to feed the beast that just never gets full. And if making money is that easy for MMO publishers, why would they even need to do the hard work of creating something good that's a good value?
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
If the cost to produce a virtual item is negligable, economics dictates that the price of the item should be equally negligable.
Economics says nothing of the sort. It doesn't remotely say that the cost of a product is related to the cost of production. Instead, economics relates to supply and demand. And this leads to the very heart of the argument.
In a computer game such as an MMO, it is ridiculously easy for a company to artificially restrict the supply of an item. Just lower the drop rate, or increase the grind or whatever. Doing so is so cheap for a company, that the operation is essentially free.
From the point of view of a subscription based company, it makes sense to have some content that is easy to obtain, some which is moderately difficult, some that is hard and some that is very hard. This (at least in theory) ensures that all the players enjoy the game by playing at their level - they all have something to strive for, something to achieve.
Now consider an RMT company. They want to produce a basic game to get people in through the doors. However, in order to make money, the RMT company has to make sure this basic game isn't too good. For a subscription company, having people enjoy the basic game for a long period is good - since they all pay a monthly fee. For an RMT company, having people enjoying the basic game for a long period is bad - since these people make the company no money. They have to make sure there is a strong incentive to spend cash - and they do that by artificially restring the supply of desirable items - whether those desirably items are cosmetic items, XP, teleports, or gold. They deliberately try to limit your fun, in order to make sure you pay extra for the "fun" they have artificially removed.
If a subscription company wants to generate more revenue from existing players, they need to keep the players happy by generating significant amounts of new content (expansions).
If an RMT company wants to make more money from existing players, they could generate more content, but that would cost them a lot of money. Instead, it's much cheaper for them to invent some highly restricted item and then charge for it.
---
So that to me is the essence of the difference between RMT and paid for expansions.
You shouldn't judge just in terms of where the game is, but instead in terms of where it's going, and where the incentives for developers exist.
Expansion = pay for more content to do. RMT = pay to skip content.
Absolutely agree. Charge me more per month, or hit me with an occasional expansion where I am rewarded for effort. Don't give me a dropdown menu that'll let me just get shit with a couple clicks and a valid cc.
The original topic rather exhausted, I thought I'd change the title to what is currently the hot topic in this thread.
Is there a difference? Aren't Expansions just expensive RMT's of the worst kind?
They cost a lot, often significantly more than the monthly fee. They are practically FORCED! You can't reach max level without them. Can't get the faster mount. Can't get the newest PvP gear. Can't get the new Ability System. Can't use the new Item Slot. You're gimped without it! You're limited without it! And the content? How many people actually reach max level? To all those with Alt-itus, those who slowly crawl to the next level, they never really reach max level. Yet to continue to PvP, or because the features are spread throughout levels, sometimes you are FORCED to buy an expansion which contents you will never see. Or perhaps you don't care about content... but you REALLY want to be that new class or race! Well that's $$$$ just to unlock a class/race. Is this not the exact same as RMT? You can only be level 60. You can't get any powerful, or go anywhere higher, until you pay $$$$$$$$$ to unlock the features. There is a new class ability, and you have to pay $$$$$ to get it.
If an expansion cost $40, and all you get is a level cap increase of 60 to 70, and content for those 10 levels, a new class, and a new race, isn't that the exact same as an RMT where you can buy a potion that gives you +10 levels worth of stats, for $20, $10 to unlock the new class, and $10 to unlock the new race?
So what's so bad about RMT, if they already have EXPANSIONS? Aesthetic RMT? Non-Aesthetic RMT? What gives?
Discuss.
First of all, (green highlight) from what I've seen quite a few ppl reach max level in mmos, if not all of them. Just because you can't do that don't throw everyone into that category. Besides, most mmos have tiered pvp so you won't be fighting against ppl that are much higher lvl than you.
Second, (yellow highlight) if it worked like that then there would be dozens of versions of the same game out there and that is not right.
Third, expansions are nothing like rmt. Expansions offer massive amounts of new content, new lvl cap, new classes/races, new items, and much, much more. They keep everyone on a even playing field. You forgot to include paying for the new content in your comparison that i've highlighted, so if things worked the way you described rmt would be more expensive than an expansion. Isn't leveling your character part of the fun of reaching the level cap? Why would you want to pay for that?
Anyways, I'd rather pay $40 every year or two than have to dump $5+ per month on rmt just to be competitive ina game.
So what some of you are saying is that they aren't able to sell zones, dungeons, races, or classes as microtransactions? How narrow minded of you. You don't need to look any farther than DDO to see all of those available in a MT store. Are those items things you buy so you can skip content?
Is there something about discussing MT's that automatically makes people more stupid?
So what some of you are saying is that they aren't able to sell zones, dungeons, races, or classes as microtransactions? How narrow minded of you. You don't need to look any farther than DDO to see all of those available in a MT store. Are those items things you buy so you can skip content?
Is there something about discussing MT's that automatically makes people more stupid?
That is not what people are saying.
Perhaps you should read a little more before you start calling people stupid and narrow minded.
yeah, far be it from me to stand in the way of your clever usage of the word stupid, BUT what it looks like most of us have an issue with is ability/effect/gear via payoff rather than achievement.
1) Full Expansions, Small Expansions (Cheaper, large packages of content like EQ2, basically Expansions in installments) 2) RMT Almost always, if you don't purchase #1, you are gimped. You can't reach max level, you can't get the best gear, you can't be the new overpowered class/race, you can't do this, can't do that. Almost ALWAYS- without the expansion, you can't compete with those who have it. These are EXPENSIVE too, sometimes 2-4 times the monthly fee. The difference is what? One is at EB GAMES and Direct2Drive, while the other is on a website in the In-Game Browser?
Are expansions not incredibly expensive, game unbalancing, competition destroying, RMT?
So what some of you are saying is that they aren't able to sell zones, dungeons, races, or classes as microtransactions? How narrow minded of you. You don't need to look any farther than DDO to see all of those available in a MT store. Are those items things you buy so you can skip content?
Is there something about discussing MT's that automatically makes people more stupid?
That is not what people are saying.
Perhaps you should read a little more before you start calling people stupid and narrow minded.
I just read two pages of people saying "RMT = pay to skip content."! If I buy a dungeon am I paying to skip content? Quite the opposite. The sad part is how many people were agreeing with that assessment.
1) Full Expansions, Small Expansions (Cheaper, large packages of content like EQ2, basically Expansions in installments) 2) RMT Almost always, if you don't purchase #1, you are gimped. You can't reach max level, you can't get the best gear, you can't be the new overpowered class/race, you can't do this, can't do that. Almost ALWAYS- without the expansion, you can't compete with those who have it. These are EXPENSIVE too, sometimes 2-4 times the monthly fee. The difference is what? One is at EB GAMES and Direct2Drive, while the other is on a website in the In-Game Browser?
Are expansions not incredibly expensive, game unbalancing, competition destroying, RMT?
All I have to say is LOL.
How do expansions unbalance a game?
If I refused to buy WoW WotLK do you think I would be able to remain competitive in open PvP? No. Of course not. The entire balance of the game would have changed.
So what some of you are saying is that they aren't able to sell zones, dungeons, races, or classes as microtransactions? How narrow minded of you. You don't need to look any farther than DDO to see all of those available in a MT store. Are those items things you buy so you can skip content?
Is there something about discussing MT's that automatically makes people more stupid?
That is not what people are saying.
Perhaps you should read a little more before you start calling people stupid and narrow minded.
I just read two pages of people saying "RMT = pay to skip content."! If I buy a dungeon am I paying to skip content? Quite the opposite. The sad part is how many people were agreeing with that assessment.
I saw two pages of people trying to twist expansions as being the same thing as RMT for ingame rewards, which they are not.
There is a lot of twisting of facts and realities in this thread by people trying very hard to associate dissimilar issues and items trying to make their viewpoint seem valid, because without that association there is very little ground to stand on.
After over 100 replies there has not been one reason why microtransaction item mall mechanics are a benefit to a subscription game or the players. There have been a lot of insults and deflection however.
So what some of you are saying is that they aren't able to sell zones, dungeons, races, or classes as microtransactions? How narrow minded of you. You don't need to look any farther than DDO to see all of those available in a MT store. Are those items things you buy so you can skip content?
Is there something about discussing MT's that automatically makes people more stupid?
That is not what people are saying.
Perhaps you should read a little more before you start calling people stupid and narrow minded.
I just read two pages of people saying "RMT = pay to skip content."! If I buy a dungeon am I paying to skip content? Quite the opposite. The sad part is how many people were agreeing with that assessment.
How bout taking what you are reading in context? I don't have a problem with paying for expanding content (read: dungeon etc). DDO's approach is pretty different than traditional rmt. I actually have no issue with their model. They give players an option to either pay full amount for ACCESS to content, or freedom to pick which content they want ACCESS to. DDO isn't selling gear to players, aside from a few expendables, which are available to folks who pay full price via their allowance of points each month.
If I cared for the game anymore, I'd likely still play it, because that model doesn't diminish ingame achievement in my opinion.
Traditionally, RMTs offer gear or other items with substantial ingame effects which are available without effort or achievement ingame. I play games for progression within the game environment, and enjoy an even playing field. That is why traditional rmt games don't appeal to me, and that's also why I am extremely wary of any game which tries to implement rmt with items with ingame effects. Please don't insult me because I don't agree with you. Doing so only diminishes anything intelligent you might add to the discussion.
For me, the difference is that expansions are well-planned and I can budget accordingly for the one that comes out every 6 months to 2 years. Plus, I have confidence that the mmo will continue to exist because the company is generating revenue on a reliable schedule. Something many investors favor.
If the cost to produce a virtual item is negligable, economics dictates that the price of the item should be equally negligable.
Economics says nothing of the sort. It doesn't remotely say that the cost of a product is related to the cost of production. Instead, economics relates to supply and demand. And this leads to the very heart of the argument.
Once they've stocked it in an item store, they have an unlimited supply.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Once they've stocked it in an item store, they have an unlimited supply.
Someone should make a rule about the internet - anything that can be misunderstood - will be misunderstood.
What I mean is that they restrict the supply of desirable goods outside the RMT system, in order to encourage people to use RMT. For example, if xp was plentiful, not many people would buy xp boosts - so they put in tough xp grinds (restricting the supply of xp) in order to increase demand for xp, hence forcing people so spend money.
The "difference" is that even your question is a "lie" that is because it is not a question you are trying to trick us into your personal opinion. Neither are EXPANSIONS costly nor are MICROTRANSACTIONS (RMT) cheap! This is the point. Recomendation: Talk to some of the guys here who spend more on "costly" RMT than every EXPANSION would be able to cost
.........the question is the entire source of this thread.
If I say the expansions in the question are costly, and the RMT is cheap, then the expansions are costly and RMT is cheap.
I am not asking "What is the difference between the average MMO expansion and the average MMO RMT shop?"
I specifically gave the example of what exactly the expansion and RMT shop has to offer, and exactly how much they cost.
=================================
If an expansion cost $60, and gives you
1) One new island.
2) 5 More Levels
3) 1 New Race
4) 1 New Class
5) 3 New Features
6) One special item
and RMT shop has these things for sale:
1) One new island. $20
2) 5 More Levels $20
3) 1 New Race $6
4) 1 New Class $6
5) 3 New Features $2 each
6) One special item $2
7) 2hours Double XP for $5
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?
===============================
The problem with people in this thread is their inability to read and comprehend basic english.
The question isn't "What is the difference between WoW's two expansions and HERO Online's RMT shop?"
The question isn't "What is the difference between the average Everquest expansion, and the average Korean RMT?"
The question is what is the difference between a $40 expansions and $5 + $5 + $5 + $5 + $5 + $5 + $5 + $5 RMT shops that provide the same thing?
And you're wrong. Expansions ARE costly compared to RMT shops. $40-60 is significantly more than $1-10. In fact, at LEAST they're 4-6x more expensive, and at MOST 40-60x, if expansions cost that much- and RMT the same.
Also, you CANNOT compare buying $100 worth of double experience potions and costume parts, and an expansion. You have to compare an expansion and RMT that provides the same things. Try comparing DDO's RMT shop, it has MT's which are the exact same thing expansions give: Dungeons, Content, New Races, New Classes, etc.
The thing I hate the most about the internet is its lack of ability to read and comprehend basic ideas and questions.
HERE: Let me answer this SIMPLE question for all of you. There is only one correct answer:
What is the difference between costly EXPANSIONS and cheap RMT?
In essence, NOTHING!
Expansions are things you pay for IN ADDITION TO MONTHLY FEES that unlock dungeons, races, classes, and level cap. This is the exact same thing RMT can provide. The only difference is that RMT can provide even MORE, can provide usables (aesthetic or not), expansions ALWAYS unbalance the game while RMT's don't always have to, expansions are more expensive, expansions force you to pay for content you might not want, expansions are far more expensive, and RMT would be a better way to release expansions for customers, but not the business.
Sometimes people buy $40 expansions solely to get ONE race, or just to compete with everyone else and continue to play the game. In DDO, buying a new race, class, increasing level cap, or getting more content (dungeons) is significantly cheaper than $40, and you can pick and choose which things you do and don't want.
Choice DDO's RMT > Forced Expansions
Regardless of whether or not you have to pay a monthly fee.
Just remember: DDO's RMT doesn't mean DDO + RMT. It means exactly as it reads: DDO's RMT.
In essence, the entire OP question is RHETORICAL. Only someone who twists and turns the far extremes of expansions (like thinking "The expansion could be free!" and the far extreme of RMT "It could be $50 for a hat!" would be able to mess up this question.
From a cost standpoint, sure. But there are by far more differences in application. Course if you weren't opening up the topic for discussion, why did you post in a forum?
In any event, I appreciate that you like your justification for your viewpoint. I just don't agree with it as applied in real scenarios in games that I am interested in. The actual money cost may be all that concerns you, but it is far from what concerns me.
You are, of course, welcome to continue to debate that I am overlooking the original question, however, I am just as welcome to point out what I see as holes in the comparrison when my gameplay is concerned. I cannot, after all, speak for anyone but me.
Comments
Expansions become the game. Usually there is a "platinum" version or something along those lines that is released which includes the original game, and all the expansions for about the price of the original game.
I don't think expanions are costly, or anything like RMT.
RMT ruins the game for me, and I won'[t play games with RMT. If you like RMT games, that's fine, different people enjoy different games.
Expansions can be ok, until eventually they also ruin the game. Best example is TOA in DAoC.
The biggest problem with expansions is they tend to add on end game or high level content much more than low level content, which makes the game to top heavy. One or two expansions is usually ok, after that they tend to skew the game towards the end game, and to continue to ad higher and higher levels and gear, which at some point become ridiculous.
RMT just makes playing the game no fun because it doesn't really satisfy you to work for something if you can just buy it, or get double xp potions, etc. I've got enough money to buy what I want in an RMT game, or always play double xp, but it just feels like cheating and takes the fun out of the game for me.
People buy expansions to experience new content. People buy RMT items to go throught the game faster than people that can't or won't buy RMT items.
The difference between costly expansions and cheap RMT:
Nothing.
They're both capitalist schemes to exploit you in order to make a profit.
/thread.
If an expansion cost $60, and gives you
1) One new island.
2) 5 More Levels
3) 1 New Race
4) 1 New Class
5) 3 New Features
6) One special item
Most expansions would have more than this
and RMT shop has these things for sale:
1) One new island. $20
2) 5 More Levels $20
3) 1 New Race $6
4) 1 New Class $6
5) 3 New Features $2 each
6) One special item $2
7) 2hours Double XP for $5
Surely not all the new content would cost money as the new island could be used to advertise the new race [new race starts on new island customers explore new island and meets fascinating new race - Catgirls?].
That makes RMT cheap. Only $2 for a feature, item, and only $6 for a new class/race? That's cheap. Cheap RMT.
$60 is not cheap. Also, if the things are the same- permanent unlocks- then there is absolutely no difference between buying 1-6 at the RMT shop or buying the Expansion (except that RMT is better, because you can save money by not buying what you dont want.) I'm sorry, but RMT's have fixed prices too. It's not like Monday the Warforged race is $5, while Friday it's $10.
But according to you, the RMT is not considered cheap because you can buy #7 limitless?
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't understand your logic at all.
I See now why you are supporting RMT now you like the idea of getting a certain item instantly by paying for it rather than grinding for a long time so you can have fun faster, id say this is the core of your argument and in principle i can sympathise with this idea.
However i feel that i must point out that not everyone wants to spend lots of money just to keep up with competing players who can afford to item shop. Now you provide a comparison list in your post i have quoted but i have to say that the prices are not very realistic as for example the special item i would expect to pay at least £15 for it just because it is special.
Personally my main problem i have with RMT's is where you get ones where some essential ingame items you must have at some time in order to compete and have fun in all possable ways can only be got from the item shop. Now while its true anyone can buy one at any time and it may not even cost too much but i have to point out that not everyone can afford to buy every must have item [some games i hear have over 30 such items], great for those that can afford it!!!
Also another thing ive seen in some RMT games is item decay. As in you decide to buy a one hit wonder sword for £30 [its a really good item so worth £30], But say after a week of extensive use it starts to degrade and eventually breaks [Its programmed to be unfixable] So you need to buy it again.
Im not saying all RMT games are like the above examples but i can easilly see how even the Moderate cosmetic only RMT games could slowly add more to the RMT package when the devs see the money making potential.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
I agree.
What seems to be lost in this debate is why do they have to charge extra for items they already coded? It isn't like it costs them anything. They have these artists and coders on staff whether they make an RMT item or not. One could argue that paying the artist's salary is a cost, but assuming that cost is paid by the sale of the RMT item, how do they justify selling the item then?There's no warehousing, no materials cost, and no overhead to justify why they need to sell these things per unit. Yet they do.
If the cost to produce a virtual item is negligable, economics dictates that the price of the item should be equally negligable. Certainly not the prices that are charged. The items sold in the item store bring in well over 10% profit (which is considered an excellent profit margin in legit businesses). Anything more than that, and chances are, we are partaking in a scam. Go to any Wall Street brokerage house and say that something is making more than a 10% profit, and chances are, they'll be wondering when the SEC will be coming in.
Something that is far more disturbing to me than item malls is the lack of outrage concerning the practice when it is put on top of a subscription-based game. What it shows me is that there's a certain segment of the MMO-playing population that is so immersed in the fantasy, they are willing to shovel out a lot of money to feed the beast that just never gets full. And if making money is that easy for MMO publishers, why would they even need to do the hard work of creating something good that's a good value?
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Economics says nothing of the sort. It doesn't remotely say that the cost of a product is related to the cost of production. Instead, economics relates to supply and demand. And this leads to the very heart of the argument.
In a computer game such as an MMO, it is ridiculously easy for a company to artificially restrict the supply of an item. Just lower the drop rate, or increase the grind or whatever. Doing so is so cheap for a company, that the operation is essentially free.
From the point of view of a subscription based company, it makes sense to have some content that is easy to obtain, some which is moderately difficult, some that is hard and some that is very hard. This (at least in theory) ensures that all the players enjoy the game by playing at their level - they all have something to strive for, something to achieve.
Now consider an RMT company. They want to produce a basic game to get people in through the doors. However, in order to make money, the RMT company has to make sure this basic game isn't too good. For a subscription company, having people enjoy the basic game for a long period is good - since they all pay a monthly fee. For an RMT company, having people enjoying the basic game for a long period is bad - since these people make the company no money. They have to make sure there is a strong incentive to spend cash - and they do that by artificially restring the supply of desirable items - whether those desirably items are cosmetic items, XP, teleports, or gold. They deliberately try to limit your fun, in order to make sure you pay extra for the "fun" they have artificially removed.
If a subscription company wants to generate more revenue from existing players, they need to keep the players happy by generating significant amounts of new content (expansions).
If an RMT company wants to make more money from existing players, they could generate more content, but that would cost them a lot of money. Instead, it's much cheaper for them to invent some highly restricted item and then charge for it.
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So that to me is the essence of the difference between RMT and paid for expansions.
You shouldn't judge just in terms of where the game is, but instead in terms of where it's going, and where the incentives for developers exist.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
Expansion = pay for more content to do.
RMT = pay to skip content.
lol nicely boiled down
One of the most accurate summarizations I've seen.
Poignant, my friend.
Sweet and to the point. This is the heart of the difference.
Absolutely agree. Charge me more per month, or hit me with an occasional expansion where I am rewarded for effort. Don't give me a dropdown menu that'll let me just get shit with a couple clicks and a valid cc.
First of all, (green highlight) from what I've seen quite a few ppl reach max level in mmos, if not all of them. Just because you can't do that don't throw everyone into that category. Besides, most mmos have tiered pvp so you won't be fighting against ppl that are much higher lvl than you.
Second, (yellow highlight) if it worked like that then there would be dozens of versions of the same game out there and that is not right.
Third, expansions are nothing like rmt. Expansions offer massive amounts of new content, new lvl cap, new classes/races, new items, and much, much more. They keep everyone on a even playing field. You forgot to include paying for the new content in your comparison that i've highlighted, so if things worked the way you described rmt would be more expensive than an expansion. Isn't leveling your character part of the fun of reaching the level cap? Why would you want to pay for that?
Anyways, I'd rather pay $40 every year or two than have to dump $5+ per month on rmt just to be competitive ina game.
Mr. Bagguns
So what some of you are saying is that they aren't able to sell zones, dungeons, races, or classes as microtransactions? How narrow minded of you. You don't need to look any farther than DDO to see all of those available in a MT store. Are those items things you buy so you can skip content?
Is there something about discussing MT's that automatically makes people more stupid?
That is not what people are saying.
Perhaps you should read a little more before you start calling people stupid and narrow minded.
yeah, far be it from me to stand in the way of your clever usage of the word stupid, BUT what it looks like most of us have an issue with is ability/effect/gear via payoff rather than achievement.
Hopefully that clears it up for you.
EDIT: typo strikes again!
All I have to say is LOL.
How do expansions unbalance a game?
Mr. Bagguns
That is not what people are saying.
Perhaps you should read a little more before you start calling people stupid and narrow minded.
I just read two pages of people saying "RMT = pay to skip content."! If I buy a dungeon am I paying to skip content? Quite the opposite. The sad part is how many people were agreeing with that assessment.
All I have to say is LOL.
How do expansions unbalance a game?
If I refused to buy WoW WotLK do you think I would be able to remain competitive in open PvP? No. Of course not. The entire balance of the game would have changed.
That is not what people are saying.
Perhaps you should read a little more before you start calling people stupid and narrow minded.
I just read two pages of people saying "RMT = pay to skip content."! If I buy a dungeon am I paying to skip content? Quite the opposite. The sad part is how many people were agreeing with that assessment.
I saw two pages of people trying to twist expansions as being the same thing as RMT for ingame rewards, which they are not.
There is a lot of twisting of facts and realities in this thread by people trying very hard to associate dissimilar issues and items trying to make their viewpoint seem valid, because without that association there is very little ground to stand on.
After over 100 replies there has not been one reason why microtransaction item mall mechanics are a benefit to a subscription game or the players. There have been a lot of insults and deflection however.
That is not what people are saying.
Perhaps you should read a little more before you start calling people stupid and narrow minded.
I just read two pages of people saying "RMT = pay to skip content."! If I buy a dungeon am I paying to skip content? Quite the opposite. The sad part is how many people were agreeing with that assessment.
How bout taking what you are reading in context? I don't have a problem with paying for expanding content (read: dungeon etc). DDO's approach is pretty different than traditional rmt. I actually have no issue with their model. They give players an option to either pay full amount for ACCESS to content, or freedom to pick which content they want ACCESS to. DDO isn't selling gear to players, aside from a few expendables, which are available to folks who pay full price via their allowance of points each month.
If I cared for the game anymore, I'd likely still play it, because that model doesn't diminish ingame achievement in my opinion.
Traditionally, RMTs offer gear or other items with substantial ingame effects which are available without effort or achievement ingame. I play games for progression within the game environment, and enjoy an even playing field. That is why traditional rmt games don't appeal to me, and that's also why I am extremely wary of any game which tries to implement rmt with items with ingame effects. Please don't insult me because I don't agree with you. Doing so only diminishes anything intelligent you might add to the discussion.
Thanks
For me, the difference is that expansions are well-planned and I can budget accordingly for the one that comes out every 6 months to 2 years. Plus, I have confidence that the mmo will continue to exist because the company is generating revenue on a reliable schedule. Something many investors favor.
The "difference" is that even your question is a "lie"
that is because it is not a question you are trying to trick us into your personal opinion.
Neither are EXPANSIONS costly nor are MICROTRANSACTIONS (RMT) cheap!
This is the point.
Recomendation:
Talk to some of the guys here who spend more on "costly" RMT than every EXPANSION would be able to cost
Economics says nothing of the sort. It doesn't remotely say that the cost of a product is related to the cost of production. Instead, economics relates to supply and demand. And this leads to the very heart of the argument.
Once they've stocked it in an item store, they have an unlimited supply.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Someone should make a rule about the internet - anything that can be misunderstood - will be misunderstood.
What I mean is that they restrict the supply of desirable goods outside the RMT system, in order to encourage people to use RMT. For example, if xp was plentiful, not many people would buy xp boosts - so they put in tough xp grinds (restricting the supply of xp) in order to increase demand for xp, hence forcing people so spend money.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
.........the question is the entire source of this thread.
If I say the expansions in the question are costly, and the RMT is cheap, then the expansions are costly and RMT is cheap.
I am not asking "What is the difference between the average MMO expansion and the average MMO RMT shop?"
I specifically gave the example of what exactly the expansion and RMT shop has to offer, and exactly how much they cost.
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If an expansion cost $60, and gives you
1) One new island.
2) 5 More Levels
3) 1 New Race
4) 1 New Class
5) 3 New Features
6) One special item
and RMT shop has these things for sale:
1) One new island. $20
2) 5 More Levels $20
3) 1 New Race $6
4) 1 New Class $6
5) 3 New Features $2 each
6) One special item $2
7) 2hours Double XP for $5
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?
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The problem with people in this thread is their inability to read and comprehend basic english.
The question isn't "What is the difference between WoW's two expansions and HERO Online's RMT shop?"
The question isn't "What is the difference between the average Everquest expansion, and the average Korean RMT?"
The question is what is the difference between a $40 expansions and $5 + $5 + $5 + $5 + $5 + $5 + $5 + $5 RMT shops that provide the same thing?
And you're wrong. Expansions ARE costly compared to RMT shops. $40-60 is significantly more than $1-10. In fact, at LEAST they're 4-6x more expensive, and at MOST 40-60x, if expansions cost that much- and RMT the same.
Also, you CANNOT compare buying $100 worth of double experience potions and costume parts, and an expansion. You have to compare an expansion and RMT that provides the same things. Try comparing DDO's RMT shop, it has MT's which are the exact same thing expansions give: Dungeons, Content, New Races, New Classes, etc.
The thing I hate the most about the internet is its lack of ability to read and comprehend basic ideas and questions.
HERE: Let me answer this SIMPLE question for all of you. There is only one correct answer:
What is the difference between costly EXPANSIONS and cheap RMT?
In essence, NOTHING!
Expansions are things you pay for IN ADDITION TO MONTHLY FEES that unlock dungeons, races, classes, and level cap. This is the exact same thing RMT can provide. The only difference is that RMT can provide even MORE, can provide usables (aesthetic or not), expansions ALWAYS unbalance the game while RMT's don't always have to, expansions are more expensive, expansions force you to pay for content you might not want, expansions are far more expensive, and RMT would be a better way to release expansions for customers, but not the business.
Sometimes people buy $40 expansions solely to get ONE race, or just to compete with everyone else and continue to play the game. In DDO, buying a new race, class, increasing level cap, or getting more content (dungeons) is significantly cheaper than $40, and you can pick and choose which things you do and don't want.
Choice DDO's RMT > Forced Expansions
Regardless of whether or not you have to pay a monthly fee.
Just remember: DDO's RMT doesn't mean DDO + RMT. It means exactly as it reads: DDO's RMT.
In essence, the entire OP question is RHETORICAL. Only someone who twists and turns the far extremes of expansions (like thinking "The expansion could be free!" and the far extreme of RMT "It could be $50 for a hat!" would be able to mess up this question.
From a cost standpoint, sure. But there are by far more differences in application. Course if you weren't opening up the topic for discussion, why did you post in a forum?
In any event, I appreciate that you like your justification for your viewpoint. I just don't agree with it as applied in real scenarios in games that I am interested in. The actual money cost may be all that concerns you, but it is far from what concerns me.
You are, of course, welcome to continue to debate that I am overlooking the original question, however, I am just as welcome to point out what I see as holes in the comparrison when my gameplay is concerned. I cannot, after all, speak for anyone but me.