And what about all those fluff items I get for buying the expansion? I paid RL money for them, I can't earn them in game, they can't be undone. Unlike the sword of power it does not affect the game.
And some not so fluff items - EQ does offer really really good armor sets, and bags for it's expansion packs.
Venge Sunsoar
edit: I agree that between tradition RMT and traditional expansions there is a difference however the lines are being blurred
First there was a big expansion. Now there are mini expansions, now there are adventure packs. Now there is access to particular zones - very very blurry line.
First there was collectors edition items, now there was fluff items in expansions, now there are fluff items with adventure packs, now there are just fluff items - again a very very blurry line.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
To me fluff items I get with multiple adventure packs are exactly the same things as just buying a fluff item.
In DDO's case maybe it's time to establish a third term. RMT is buying items (Fluff or not, continued or not). Monthly sub is self-explanatory and a third is a pay for what you use - never going to that zone or adventure then I don't have to pay for it...
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Sure there are incentive items (fluff, vanity pets, etc) that sometimes accompany expansions, but those are not the intended product that are being sold. You are spending money on the expansion and the vanity items are like the free toy in a box of cereal . I don't think anyone would classify breakfast cereal as a non-food product that should be sold in toy stores and I think the same the same applies here with a few small exceptions.
As for the lines being blurred I fully agree. I can think of a few examples where companies used expansions as a vehicle for RMT, because the incentive item was so valuable it was worth more than the expansion was (even if the players already had the expansion it was the only way to get the non-vanity item). SWG comes to mind in this area, but soe has been trying hard to implement RMT in various form for years now and nothing seems off limits to them.
Overall I don't think RMT or breaking down expansions into smaller bits is a benefit to you and me as players. They are both just shameless attempts to get more money from us which is where things get blurry and people associate the two. I see where the similarities exsist in principle and understand why they are being associated, but it is a misconception.
MMORPGs are not products. MMORPGs are services. Still they didnt got enough attention on the court rooms and in the laws and juridic cases. We have no rights. Dont believe stupid things like the Champions Online "We will have only asthetic stuff".
Hey you developer. If 6 months later you decide to change anything, will you commit sepuku? Can I go and kill you because you broke your promisse? How do I get revenge? Can I sue your ass for big bugs because you made me spent over a hundred hours of my life pursuing virtual power that now, because of your change, is now worth just a fraction? My time and effort spent was shrinked, thrown out of the window, will you compensate me how I think you should?
I laugh at the faces of ignorant youngsters who doesnt know how things works. Im a lawyer and a player and let me tell you... "Players rights" will exist in the future, you will own your character and your time and effort spent on the game will be your propriety and significant game changes will be seen as a break in the contract, but not now, it is still on its infancy. There is a lot of theory to be written and analogies to consumerists rights start to apply and popularization/awakening of the people with real power so we get our "rights".
Good post mate, and i hope that day comes sooner rather than later.
This is my opinion: RMT and expansions are not necessarily the same (though depending on situations nowadays, sometimes they are, but not always).
I am guessing that RMT applies to one particular business model that I detest because it ruined my previous game, Silkroad Online (among other reasons, such as bot infestation and the GMs started becoming less trustworthy to the point where they even lie now). In this case, RMT can be good or bad. Good means that the item mall only provide fun items (as well as a few convenient items, such as a xp scroll or a pack of 100 potions). Bad means you buy the most powerful gear from it, thus weeding out the best from the worst.
Expansions are somewhat forced, but I'll say something. Who here has COD:WAW? Who here hates the expansions, which come with four levels each and cost $10? Expansions are somewhat forced, but since they add so much content , expansions aren't always necessarily bad (depending on what the expansion does).
- Real money trade / Microtransactions with the Developers of the mmorpg
I will never play mmo's with item shops, or where you can buy fluff or advancement from the developers.
- Illegal RMT with players, buying ingame currency, items and powerleveling services from hackers, scammers and farmers.
I expect companies to take a hard stance against this and do everything in their power to prevent it, of course one can never banish it completely.
The lesser evil
- Legal RMT between players only, where you can buy subcsription time and sell to other players for isk ( ingame currency )
The only game I know that does this is EVE Online, and while I don't like it, it is one of the tools to combat illegal isk sellers.
It is always isk ( ingame currency ) generated by players, CCP never magically create isk or items to sell to players. Thus there is no direct impact on the economy ( there are inderect consequences ).
I can live with this, I don't like it, and in a perfect world it would not exist, but let not kid ourselves, even Blizzard can't keep illegal RMT out of their game, and it is not because of a lack of effort or resources.
- Payed expansions, they devide the playerbase, they often ruin older content, they often focus on vertical progression exclusively, they need a reason to sell, often disturbing the long time vision and health of the game.
I can live with them, but I can certainly also live without them.
EVE Online shows that there is absolutely no need to have payed expansions, not having them creates a better synergy between old content and new content. You don't have to put a big carrot in a free expansions, you can balance focus on old content, old areas, new areas and vertical progression at the same time, and keep a healthy long term vision. Everyone automatically has all the free expansions ( they have to be mandatory of course ), so it works inclusive.
Lastly a nice side effect, as the expansions are free and there is no issue to be mandatory, there is less code to support, less variables to take into account, everyone is on the same page ( expansion ). Often the mmo's that use the expansion system, will eventually give parts of or complete expansions for free after they have been out for a certain period of time, so they have less code and variables to support.
Utopia
Illegal RMT is completely banished and there is no legal RMT or microtransactions in the game. You pay a subscription which covers everything, including free mandatory expansions.
So again, you pay to do content in expansions, and you pay to skip content with microtransactions, that is indeed the core difference.
I don't like any of it, but prefer one of the lesser evils if I must choose.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
RMT’s are a stealth tax pure and simple, the subscriptions will remain the same and the extra charges will all come through the back door. With an expansion you know roughly how much it is going to be and how often you are going to have to pay (about once every 6 months to two years).
RMT's make it difficult for the player to realise exactly how much he is paying in comparison to another MMO. Which is exactly how MMO companies like it.
Comments
And what about all those fluff items I get for buying the expansion? I paid RL money for them, I can't earn them in game, they can't be undone. Unlike the sword of power it does not affect the game.
And some not so fluff items - EQ does offer really really good armor sets, and bags for it's expansion packs.
Venge Sunsoar
edit: I agree that between tradition RMT and traditional expansions there is a difference however the lines are being blurred
First there was a big expansion. Now there are mini expansions, now there are adventure packs. Now there is access to particular zones - very very blurry line.
First there was collectors edition items, now there was fluff items in expansions, now there are fluff items with adventure packs, now there are just fluff items - again a very very blurry line.
Hardly blurry. The line looks pretty clear to me.
To me fluff items I get with multiple adventure packs are exactly the same things as just buying a fluff item.
In DDO's case maybe it's time to establish a third term. RMT is buying items (Fluff or not, continued or not). Monthly sub is self-explanatory and a third is a pay for what you use - never going to that zone or adventure then I don't have to pay for it...
Venge Sunsoar
Sure there are incentive items (fluff, vanity pets, etc) that sometimes accompany expansions, but those are not the intended product that are being sold. You are spending money on the expansion and the vanity items are like the free toy in a box of cereal . I don't think anyone would classify breakfast cereal as a non-food product that should be sold in toy stores and I think the same the same applies here with a few small exceptions.
As for the lines being blurred I fully agree. I can think of a few examples where companies used expansions as a vehicle for RMT, because the incentive item was so valuable it was worth more than the expansion was (even if the players already had the expansion it was the only way to get the non-vanity item). SWG comes to mind in this area, but soe has been trying hard to implement RMT in various form for years now and nothing seems off limits to them.
Overall I don't think RMT or breaking down expansions into smaller bits is a benefit to you and me as players. They are both just shameless attempts to get more money from us which is where things get blurry and people associate the two. I see where the similarities exsist in principle and understand why they are being associated, but it is a misconception.
Good post mate, and i hope that day comes sooner rather than later.
This is my opinion: RMT and expansions are not necessarily the same (though depending on situations nowadays, sometimes they are, but not always).
I am guessing that RMT applies to one particular business model that I detest because it ruined my previous game, Silkroad Online (among other reasons, such as bot infestation and the GMs started becoming less trustworthy to the point where they even lie now). In this case, RMT can be good or bad. Good means that the item mall only provide fun items (as well as a few convenient items, such as a xp scroll or a pack of 100 potions). Bad means you buy the most powerful gear from it, thus weeding out the best from the worst.
Expansions are somewhat forced, but I'll say something. Who here has COD:WAW? Who here hates the expansions, which come with four levels each and cost $10? Expansions are somewhat forced, but since they add so much content , expansions aren't always necessarily bad (depending on what the expansion does).
For me there are gradations of evil :
The evil
- Real money trade / Microtransactions with the Developers of the mmorpg
I will never play mmo's with item shops, or where you can buy fluff or advancement from the developers.
- Illegal RMT with players, buying ingame currency, items and powerleveling services from hackers, scammers and farmers.
I expect companies to take a hard stance against this and do everything in their power to prevent it, of course one can never banish it completely.
The lesser evil
- Legal RMT between players only, where you can buy subcsription time and sell to other players for isk ( ingame currency )
The only game I know that does this is EVE Online, and while I don't like it, it is one of the tools to combat illegal isk sellers.
It is always isk ( ingame currency ) generated by players, CCP never magically create isk or items to sell to players. Thus there is no direct impact on the economy ( there are inderect consequences ).
I can live with this, I don't like it, and in a perfect world it would not exist, but let not kid ourselves, even Blizzard can't keep illegal RMT out of their game, and it is not because of a lack of effort or resources.
- Payed expansions, they devide the playerbase, they often ruin older content, they often focus on vertical progression exclusively, they need a reason to sell, often disturbing the long time vision and health of the game.
I can live with them, but I can certainly also live without them.
EVE Online shows that there is absolutely no need to have payed expansions, not having them creates a better synergy between old content and new content. You don't have to put a big carrot in a free expansions, you can balance focus on old content, old areas, new areas and vertical progression at the same time, and keep a healthy long term vision. Everyone automatically has all the free expansions ( they have to be mandatory of course ), so it works inclusive.
Lastly a nice side effect, as the expansions are free and there is no issue to be mandatory, there is less code to support, less variables to take into account, everyone is on the same page ( expansion ). Often the mmo's that use the expansion system, will eventually give parts of or complete expansions for free after they have been out for a certain period of time, so they have less code and variables to support.
Utopia
Illegal RMT is completely banished and there is no legal RMT or microtransactions in the game. You pay a subscription which covers everything, including free mandatory expansions.
So again, you pay to do content in expansions, and you pay to skip content with microtransactions, that is indeed the core difference.
I don't like any of it, but prefer one of the lesser evils if I must choose.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
RMT’s are a stealth tax pure and simple, the subscriptions will remain the same and the extra charges will all come through the back door. With an expansion you know roughly how much it is going to be and how often you are going to have to pay (about once every 6 months to two years).
RMT's make it difficult for the player to realise exactly how much he is paying in comparison to another MMO. Which is exactly how MMO companies like it.
hooray for idiot taxes