The original topic rather exhausted, I thought I'd change the title to what is currently the hot topic in this thread.
Is there a difference? Aren't Expansions just expensive RMT's of the worst kind?
They cost a lot, often significantly more than the monthly fee. They are practically FORCED! You can't reach max level without them. Can't get the faster mount. Can't get the newest PvP gear. Can't get the new Ability System. Can't use the new Item Slot. You're gimped without it! You're limited without it! And the content? How many people actually reach max level? To all those with Alt-itus, those who slowly crawl to the next level, they never really reach max level. Yet to continue to PvP, or because the features are spread throughout levels, sometimes you are FORCED to buy an expansion which contents you will never see. Or perhaps you don't care about content... but you REALLY want to be that new class or race! Well that's $$$$ just to unlock a class/race. Is this not the exact same as RMT? You can only be level 60. You can't get any powerful, or go anywhere higher, until you pay $$$$$$$$$ to unlock the features. There is a new class ability, and you have to pay $$$$$ to get it.
If an expansion cost $40, and all you get is a level cap increase of 60 to 70, and content for those 10 levels, a new class, and a new race, isn't that the exact same as an RMT where you can buy a potion that gives you +10 levels worth of stats, for $20, $10 to unlock the new class, and $10 to unlock the new race?
================================ If an expansion cost $60, and gives you 1) One new island.
2) 5 More Levels
3) 1 New Race
4) 1 New Class
5) 3 New Features
6) One special item
and RMT shop has these things for sale: 1) One new island. $20
2) 5 More Levels $20
3) 1 New Race $6
4) 1 New Class $6
5) 3 New Features $2 each
6) One special item $2
7) 2hours Double XP for $5
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE? =============================== So what's so bad about RMT, if they already have EXPANSIONS? Aesthetic RMT? Non-Aesthetic RMT? What gives?
Discuss.
Lets get back on subject and cut out the BIG LETTERS, because BIG LETTERS don't make points any more valid or sensible.
The core point that so many have made here is that MT sucks in a game when it destroys achievement. This has been said again again. Achievement is the key word.
If DDO is selling content that expects you to learn it and 'beat' it, then thats obviously fine. No argument. I personally put that into the meta game optional service bracket and nothing to do with the ruiniation of achievement based gaming. It has nothing to do with the vast majority of points being made here.
DDO's consumables are another point. Lets please stop pretending right now that the DDO shop, beyond offering content 'modules', is 'doing things right', when it is as bad as anything out there.
You cannot introduce healing pots, resist pots, buffs, hirelings, loot modifiers, spell pots, and rez cakes into a game as MT items and not expect it to change core play dynamics. I mean, look at this list;
So much for sale in DDO's shop is obviously aimed at the soloer which, in turn, of course leads to the classic cycle of less people forming groups, making it harder to get a group, so more people solo, which means less people form groups, making it harder to get a... and so on until you are looking at having to buy shop consumables to just even play the game. Alone. This is obviously not happened by accident.
So much for 'free'.
Back on track though, just to clarify, this is my perspective;
Meta game services (transfers, extra slots, etc) are fine. They do not effect achievement in game or upset any kind of balance.
Additional ingame zones that simply are new adventures to be played and 'beaten' are fine, in theory. I remember quite enjoying the early 'adventure packs' that SOE put out for EQ2 as additional content. They were fun (imo), challenging, and not overpowered items wise. As long as all the best items arnt stacked in these 'optional' MT zones and they arnt made super easy, then I have no issues with them.
Buying in game rewards, fluff or otherwise, is just weak as a gamer imo. It takes no knowledge, no skill, and no investment. I see you with a $10 cape on your character and I just think you are a fool, nothing else, even if I am wearing rags.
From the dev POV, it is a dishonest and insidious revenue model that exploits your addiction, epeen envy, laziness, and greed (from behind the scenes via game design without you being aware of it) to ensure that you spend more on the game then you would have via a sub. There is no other reason for the item mall model to even exist then to drip bleed more cash from you. This is why the 'F2P' companies love it so much- they simply get more money out of you for the same (or less) work on their part.
The people actually defending mall selling in game items are really just defending the gradual transformation of real games into dumb virtual market spaces, with just the thin veneer of a ez mode game laid over the top to hook the gullible in. They have fallen for the sellers propaganda and hype, and that makes me more then a little sad.
On a related note, why it is that every game that isnt good enough to support a sub revenue model goes Item Mall these days? Is it just because the minority who do like the failed sub games will spend more in a mall then they would on a sub, making the game more profitable off a smaller player base? If so, by definition, MT must cost the individual more then a sub would right? Otherwise why bother changing from a sub model to a MT one?
Oh and btw Arch, your pricing of $60 for an expansion is blatantly ridiculous. If your gonna attempt to prove a point, at least base it on some kind of reality. Like I said before, looking at the real price of an expansion, your list of equivalent MT features starts to look really really expensive, even if the prices are just made up (and more then a little 'optimistic').
and before I go, telling people to 'discuss' your points in your first post, and then then claiming the question was 'rhetorical' in your last dosent make any sense at all.
I call it "virtual power". Whatever we call it, its the same.
If people can buy it using real money legally from the game item mall, its wrong, globally, no exceptions.
Noone can make an argument against virtual power being bought with real money being acceptable. Thats imoral and in the future it will be against the law.
Any item that affects XP gain is not aesthetical. It doesnt matter if there is a level cap and bought eventually will reach it. Its a falacy. What matters is that there is a frame of time in wich there is a difference in virtual power caused by real money used in the cash shop.
I offen hear people saying "they dont have time", therefore "they cant compete". They try to justify buying virtual power with real money. Its a falacy as well. Its a losing excuse like any other, and no excuses justify real money as a solution.
Another falacy, "Buying virtual power with real money through RMT is ok, because people can buy in the blackmarket as well".
In one, if people get caught, they are banned. In the other, nothing happens. in fact, in games where people can buy virtual power in cash shops, you notice wide game changes with the objective of forcing people to spend more money.
Falacy from the Developers after adding virtual power to the item malls/cash shops: "We have to pay the server costs".
Nothing justify such a change. Or they do it from the get go, informing everyone and people who play do it knowing how it works: "to compete I will have to spend real money, ok, I understand and accept it". Or they are breaking the goodwill of the contract, causing damage to the consumer, wich is not acceptable. If they do that, they have to indemnize, wich will hinder the ability to pay server costs even more.
Its part of the risk of the business principle that companies known from the start what are their servers costs and if they will be able to pay it under the rules of the contract. In this case, the contract say: WE WILL NOT HAVE IN OUR CASH SHOP ANY ITEM THAT AFFECTS DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY THE VIRTUAL POWER OF CHARACTERS SINCE WE ARE ONLY OFFERING AESTHETIC/COSMETHICAL ITEMS.
Once defined, it cant be changed, neither justified. And if changed, they can be sued for it.
Stating your Prejudice against "Pay to win" RMT models is one of the ways to educate and evolve the communitys of mmo player, it is one of the ways to force changes.
If we started labeling such rmt models and filtering them on the big communities along with all the following prejudice, soon enough game companies would stop this ridiculous way of forcing people into giving them money.
I propose this:
Subscription, pay per month
Free to play, pay to win
Free to play, aesthetical items
Add "pay to win" to all MMOs that have any item that affects virtual power, directly or indirectly. And soon companies would start making changes just so they would be one of the "aestheticla items" free to play games, just so they can enjoy the fairness reputation it comes with and the popularity, because people would certainly start considering if they want to play "pay to win" or "aesthetical items" free to play games.
1) Full Expansions, Small Expansions (Cheaper, large packages of content like EQ2, basically Expansions in installments) 2) RMT Almost always, if you don't purchase #1, you are gimped. You can't reach max level, you can't get the best gear, you can't be the new overpowered class/race, you can't do this, can't do that. Almost ALWAYS- without the expansion, you can't compete with those who have it. These are EXPENSIVE too, sometimes 2-4 times the monthly fee. The difference is what? One is at EB GAMES and Direct2Drive, while the other is on a website in the In-Game Browser?
Are expansions not incredibly expensive, game unbalancing, competition destroying, RMT?
All I have to say is LOL.
How do expansions unbalance a game?
If I refused to buy WoW WotLK do you think I would be able to remain competitive in open PvP? No. Of course not. The entire balance of the game would have changed.
If you refused to buy the expansion, then you probably don't like the game (meaning you shouldn't play it).
If you enjoy playing the game then you would have no problem buying the expansion.
The original topic rather exhausted, I thought I'd change the title to what is currently the hot topic in this thread.
Is there a difference? Aren't Expansions just expensive RMT's of the worst kind?
They cost a lot, often significantly more than the monthly fee. They are practically FORCED! You can't reach max level without them. Can't get the faster mount. Can't get the newest PvP gear. Can't get the new Ability System. Can't use the new Item Slot. You're gimped without it! You're limited without it! And the content? How many people actually reach max level? To all those with Alt-itus, those who slowly crawl to the next level, they never really reach max level. Yet to continue to PvP, or because the features are spread throughout levels, sometimes you are FORCED to buy an expansion which contents you will never see. Or perhaps you don't care about content... but you REALLY want to be that new class or race! Well that's $$$$ just to unlock a class/race. Is this not the exact same as RMT? You can only be level 60. You can't get any powerful, or go anywhere higher, until you pay $$$$$$$$$ to unlock the features. There is a new class ability, and you have to pay $$$$$ to get it.
If an expansion cost $40, and all you get is a level cap increase of 60 to 70, and content for those 10 levels, a new class, and a new race, isn't that the exact same as an RMT where you can buy a potion that gives you +10 levels worth of stats, for $20, $10 to unlock the new class, and $10 to unlock the new race?
================================ If an expansion cost $60, and gives you 1) One new island.
2) 5 More Levels
3) 1 New Race
4) 1 New Class
5) 3 New Features
6) One special item
and RMT shop has these things for sale: 1) One new island. $20
2) 5 More Levels $20
3) 1 New Race $6
4) 1 New Class $6
5) 3 New Features $2 each
6) One special item $2
7) 2hours Double XP for $5
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE? =============================== So what's so bad about RMT, if they already have EXPANSIONS? Aesthetic RMT? Non-Aesthetic RMT? What gives?
Discuss.
Lets get back on subject and cut out the BIG LETTERS, because BIG LETTERS don't make points any more valid or sensible.
The core point that so many have made here is that MT sucks in a game when it destroys achievement. This has been said again again. Achievement is the key word.
If DDO is selling content that expects you to learn it and 'beat' it, then thats obviously fine. No argument. I personally put that into the meta game optional service bracket and nothing to do with the ruiniation of achievement based gaming. It has nothing to do with the vast majority of points being made here.
DDO's consumables are another point. Lets please stop pretending right now that the DDO shop, beyond offering content 'modules', is 'doing things right', when it is as bad as anything out there.
You cannot introduce healing pots, resist pots, buffs, hirelings, loot modifiers, spell pots, and rez cakes into a game as MT items and not expect it to change core play dynamics. I mean, look at this list;
So much for sale in DDO's shop is obviously aimed at the soloer which, in turn, of course leads to the classic cycle of less people forming groups, making it harder to get a group, so more people solo, which means less people form groups, making it harder to get a... and so on until you are looking at having to buy shop consumables to just even play the game. Alone. This is obviously not happened by accident.
So much for 'free'.
Back on track though, just to clarify, this is my perspective;
Meta game services (transfers, extra slots, etc) are fine. They do not effect achievement in game or upset any kind of balance.
Additional ingame zones that simply are new adventures to be played and 'beaten' are fine, in theory. I remember quite enjoying the early 'adventure packs' that SOE put out for EQ2 as additional content. They were fun (imo), challenging, and not overpowered items wise. As long as all the best items arnt stacked in these 'optional' MT zones and they arnt made super easy, then I have no issues with them.
Buying in game rewards, fluff or otherwise, is just weak as a gamer imo. It takes no knowledge, no skill, and no investment. I see you with a $10 cape on your character and I just think you are a fool, nothing else, even if I am wearing rags.
From the dev POV, it is a dishonest and insidious revenue model that exploits your addiction, epeen envy, laziness, and greed (from behind the scenes via game design without you being aware of it) to ensure that you spend more on the game then you would have via a sub. There is no other reason for the item mall model to even exist then to drip bleed more cash from you. This is why the 'F2P' companies love it so much- they simply get more money out of you for the same (or less) work on their part.
The people actually defending mall selling in game items are really just defending the gradual transformation of real games into dumb virtual market spaces, with just the thin veneer of a ez mode game laid over the top to hook the gullible in. They have fallen for the sellers propaganda and hype, and that makes me more then a little sad.
On a related note, why it is that every game that isnt good enough to support a sub revenue model goes Item Mall these days? Is it just because the minority who do like the failed sub games will spend more in a mall then they would on a sub, making the game more profitable off a smaller player base? If so, by definition, MT must cost the individual more then a sub would right? Otherwise why bother changing from a sub model to a MT one?
Oh and btw Arch, your pricing of $60 for an expansion is blatantly ridiculous. If your gonna attempt to prove a point, at least base it on some kind of reality. Like I said before, looking at the real price of an expansion, your list of equivalent MT features starts to look really really expensive, even if the prices are just made up (and more then a little 'optimistic').
Btw Arch, telling people to 'discuss' your points in your first post, and then then claiming the question was 'rhetorical' in your last dosent make any sense at all.
That is a slap in the face right there.
I agree with vesavius, don't change what your saying Arch.
Only in a MMO could a gaming company expect players to pay micro transactions for what is effectively a cheat code. In solo games you can get health boosts, extra armour and the like as a cheat code (which are built in by the programmers). In MMO’s they expect you to pay for this.
If we were expected to pay more to unlock cheat codes in solo games there would be uproar. It is happening in MMO’s and player’s line up to defend it, do MMO’s breed naivete or something?
Only in a MMO could a gaming company expect players to pay micro transactions for what is effectively a cheat code. In solo games you can get health boosts, extra armour and the like as a cheat code (which are built in by the programmers). In MMO’s they expect you to pay for this. If we were expected to pay more to unlock cheat codes in solo games there would be uproar. It is happening in MMO’s and player’s line up to defend it, do MMO’s breed naivete or something?
Very true! And from my experience, as soon as I start messin with cheats in single player games, they lose all appeal to me, because they throw the sense of accomplishment right out the window.
Only in a MMO could a gaming company expect players to pay micro transactions for what is effectively a cheat code. In solo games you can get health boosts, extra armour and the like as a cheat code (which are built in by the programmers). In MMO’s they expect you to pay for this. If we were expected to pay more to unlock cheat codes in solo games there would be uproar. It is happening in MMO’s and player’s line up to defend it, do MMO’s breed naivete or something?
Very true! And from my experience, as soon as I start messin with cheats in single player games, they lose all appeal to me, because they throw the sense of accomplishment right out the window.
A little off topic here, from me. I can't remember which game it was but it was an FPS war game. I wanted to use a cheat code because I pretty much suck at FPS games. Well, this game didn't have any and I was like "Fuck that, I'm not playing this damn game." Well after sometime had gone by I decided "What the hell I'll give it a try." It was probably the most fun I had in an FPS and it was all because I couldn't cheat. I didn't realize how much I had ruined the other FPS games I had played because I had used cheat codes to get through. When I got to the end of that war campaign I felt like I had actually lived through it and felt glad to have done it with no cheats. What an awesome feeling that was.
On topic, that's what RMT does. It takes away from the feeling of accomplishment for that certain item you wanted. When you finally get it, what a great feeling. If you can just buy it, why play for it?
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
The original topic rather exhausted, I thought I'd change the title to what is currently the hot topic in this thread. Is there a difference? Aren't Expansions just expensive RMT's of the worst kind? They cost a lot, often significantly more than the monthly fee. They are practically FORCED! You can't reach max level without them. Can't get the faster mount. Can't get the newest PvP gear. Can't get the new Ability System. Can't use the new Item Slot. You're gimped without it! You're limited without it! And the content? How many people actually reach max level? To all those with Alt-itus, those who slowly crawl to the next level, they never really reach max level. Yet to continue to PvP, or because the features are spread throughout levels, sometimes you are FORCED to buy an expansion which contents you will never see. Or perhaps you don't care about content... but you REALLY want to be that new class or race! Well that's $$$$ just to unlock a class/race. Is this not the exact same as RMT? You can only be level 60. You can't get any powerful, or go anywhere higher, until you pay $$$$$$$$$ to unlock the features. There is a new class ability, and you have to pay $$$$$ to get it. If an expansion cost $40, and all you get is a level cap increase of 60 to 70, and content for those 10 levels, a new class, and a new race, isn't that the exact same as an RMT where you can buy a potion that gives you +10 levels worth of stats, for $20, $10 to unlock the new class, and $10 to unlock the new race?
As a Guildwars player I can answer that.
First in GW you don't need any expansion. It is some small advantages with owning them all since there is some gear, heroes and skills you get from the expansions. However can you both PvE and PvP well without them
You don't have to have the expansion, I just bought mines because I kinda had run out of things to do and wanted to support a great game. I have totally payed something like $90 for GW.
In a RMT game you need to buy equipment or spend ages farming it, otherwise your PvP will suck and your endgame gear wont be good enough. Someone conted 200-300 bucks for the gear in ROM, a lot more cash which you get a lot less for.
The +10 levels expansion however doesn't exist in GW and that is good, those things are slowly killing the game in the long run. After a while only the 10 last levels matter, the rest is just a tutorial which take a long time to complete.
Having both monthly fees and paid for expansions however is kinda high way robbery. You would have thought that 10 or 15 bucks a month should be enough to pay for extra content also, if it can't they should raise the fee a buck or 2 instead. Same things go for monthly fees and RMT.
The "difference" is that even your question is a "lie" that is because it is not a question you are trying to trick us into your personal opinion. Neither are EXPANSIONS costly nor are MICROTRANSACTIONS (RMT) cheap! This is the point. Recomendation: Talk to some of the guys here who spend more on "costly" RMT than every EXPANSION would be able to cost
.........the question is the entire source of this thread.
If I say the expansions in the question are costly, and the RMT is cheap, then the expansions are costly and RMT is cheap.
I am not asking "What is the difference between the average MMO expansion and the average MMO RMT shop?"
I specifically gave the example of what exactly the expansion and RMT shop has to offer, and exactly how much they cost.
=================================
If an expansion cost $60, and gives you
1) One new island.
2) 5 More Levels
3) 1 New Race
4) 1 New Class
5) 3 New Features
6) One special item
and RMT shop has these things for sale:
1) One new island. $20
2) 5 More Levels $20
3) 1 New Race $6
4) 1 New Class $6
5) 3 New Features $2 each
6) One special item $2
7) 2hours Double XP for $5
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?
===============================
The problem with people in this thread is their inability to read and comprehend basic english.
You are purposefully trying to confuse RMT with expansions and they are not the same thing.
In your "RMT" examples I have highlighted in orange the items that are typically associated with RMT. The other items are what is typically called a digital download.
You are comparing a company selling and expansion as a whole product versus them selling it in pieces and trying to tuck a few RMT examples in there in a weak attempt to justify your stance. Honestly according to your twisting of the meanings anyone who buys the original game box is engaging in microtransactions right? They are spending money on content and that is what you are trying to twist into RMT for sake of your flawed theory.
In case you missed what was said above. Please read and comprehend the following.
**Originally posted by Ihmotepp**
Expansion = pay for more content to do.
RMT = pay to skip content.
Can you see the difference now? Don't get angry when no one is agreeing with you. The question that is the source of this thread you actually ninja edited after people tore you up. Perhaps you should go back and actually read the thread to see what it discusses instead of working so hard to be right. You might just learn something.
How come it works so well for World Of Warcraft? Monthly Sub, and than a "Shop" To change how you look, your name, your server, soon your faction. And you think blizzard, being smart and sly enough to do as they do, are not going to do even more things. Remember, faction changing was never allowed. Nor was having opposite faction on the same pvp server. Oh, both changed.
Soon, they will offer race changes, and after that, class changes.
But no no, this is WoW, it does not have a store. Obviously since the game is so hated, and has so few people playing, it proves a MT/Monthly thing does not work one bit. It also proves that games will never move in that direction either.
They way they handle it, similar to Guild Wars, is a store. It's just funny how people yell, scream, nerdrage, or what have you whenever MT/RMT/IM/IGM or any other name you could give it is mentioned. It is not EXACTLY the same for different games, but it is still the same theme. Just it's okay for wow to do it, and that game is okay, but any other game /bad game!
How come it works so well for World Of Warcraft? Monthly Sub, and than a "Shop" To change how you look, your name, your server, soon your faction. And you think blizzard, being smart and sly enough to do as they do, are not going to do even more things. Remember, faction changing was never allowed. Nor was having opposite faction on the same pvp server. Oh, both changed. Soon, they will offer race changes, and after that, class changes.
But no no, this is WoW, it does not have a store. Obviously since the game is so hated, and has so few people playing, it proves a MT/Monthly thing does not work one bit. It also proves that games will never move in that direction either. They way they handle it, similar to Guild Wars, is a store. It's just funny how people yell, scream, nerdrage, or what have you whenever MT/RMT/IM/IGM or any other name you could give it is mentioned. It is not EXACTLY the same for different games, but it is still the same theme. Just it's okay for wow to do it, and that game is okay, but any other game /bad game!
Bit of a difference IMO in offering in game items and offering an apearance change, server change or class change. The only similarity is the additional income that a company makes off either service. Offering a convienent service for people who do not like their initial apearance choice or would like to change faction/server to play with friends is a HUGE difference IMO from offering in game items or content for those too lazy or too time strapped to attain it in game. Money should never be a factor for someone to attain the exact same things other players have in game (asthetic or non asthetic items).
All that said, I am not one to go off and complain about it, If that is there model, I just won't play, If a game I currently play tries to adapt that payment scheme, I will also quit. I realize that different payment models apeal to different people, so no biggie. Ill just stick to pay per month games.
How come it works so well for World Of Warcraft? Monthly Sub, and than a "Shop" To change how you look, your name, your server, soon your faction. And you think blizzard, being smart and sly enough to do as they do, are not going to do even more things. Remember, faction changing was never allowed. Nor was having opposite faction on the same pvp server. Oh, both changed. Soon, they will offer race changes, and after that, class changes.
But no no, this is WoW, it does not have a store. Obviously since the game is so hated, and has so few people playing, it proves a MT/Monthly thing does not work one bit. It also proves that games will never move in that direction either. They way they handle it, similar to Guild Wars, is a store. It's just funny how people yell, scream, nerdrage, or what have you whenever MT/RMT/IM/IGM or any other name you could give it is mentioned. It is not EXACTLY the same for different games, but it is still the same theme. Just it's okay for wow to do it, and that game is okay, but any other game /bad game!
I disagree with you.
What WoW does is not the same as rmt in other games. You can pay to change your server or recustomize your character (you get the same options as everyone has when creating there character). Or you can change your name. You can not pay for anything that makes your character any more unique than eveyone else.
And I will quit playing WoW if they ever offer class changes.
You can not pay for anything that makes your character any more unique than eveyone else.
Bull. I spent about $100 on the TCG, got all my UDE points, and spent them on a tabbard that made me quite unique. In fact I only ever saw one other player wearing one during all the years I played the game. There wasn't even any luck in it because the UDE points have a fixed value per booster. It was a direct "Cash Dollar" to "Unique Game Item" relationship.
There is no legitimate reason for people to hate Microtransactions, as long as they aren't forced, don't unbalance competition (which in Champions Online is PvP, as there is no challenge in PvE). I believe the majority are under some delusion that Microtransactions will steal their money, cause their opponents to have unfair advantages, etc.. If the MT's are just costume pieces, easier traveling, and XP boosts, there is absolutely no reason to get upset. You can simply never spend a dime over the monthly fee, and that guy you fight in PvP who leveled to your level in 1/2 the time or who has a shinier cape will have no more advantage over you than anyone else. Level bracket PvP doesn't work that way, you're not in direct competition with people in PvE, and costumes don't give damage boosts. No reason to whine.
No reason to hate.
And absolutely NO REASON to abandon a game because of it. In fact... you might just BENEFIT from MT's, having more and better updates. All hate for something that doesn't change the balance of PvP is completely illogical and without valid reason. It's as ignorant and unreasonable as the hate mobs that drive to other states to boycott Health Care Reform Town Halls. Those that hate aesthetic MT's are the rednecks of the internet.
The rude tone of your OP aside, Pay to Achieve gaming is just weak, no matter if the the purchased rewards have stats or not.
My personal views on how ingame MT of any kind destroys the very fabric of what makes a game a game (turning it into just another virtual environment to spend money in) aside, I have no idea why people gain any satisfaction at all from buying virtual baubles in a virtual environment with RL money... It's just really confusing to me. Why do you WANT to spend money on content in a game when the game really should be fun enough to make you want to play through it in order to earn it?
I simply don't get the thrill of spending cash on a new cloak (or whatever) in CO knowing that I could have actually enjoyed playing the game to win it.
I'm sorry, I apologize for the rude tone.
It's kindof hard not to be rude on the internet. I know it's counter-productive to conversation to start out rude, but it does filter out the people who are so insecure or sensitive that they can't handle a debate without emotions being involved or thinking every negative word is directed straight at them.
Statement Reads: Hatred as an emotion is Childish.
They Read: Disliking MT's makes YOU a child.
"OMG, I DISLIKE MT'S, SO I'm A CHILD!?!? GRRRRGHRR!!!"
Always failing to realize it's not MT's, but the bad attitude, and it's not you, but the extremists, who are CHILDISH, not a child.
Maybe I should write in a foreign language.
Hatred for = "If you disagree,"
Aethetic MT's = YOU!
"is Childish" = "are a CHILD!"
But expecting people to read on the INTERNET is the first sign of Insanity.
How about expecting people to actually answer the question I asked them?
edit to highlight the question for clarity :P
Sry, Ididn't even read all of that. I must've got distracted IRL at the very end, and thought I finished. Common mistake, didn't mean the disrespect.
It's cool, no offense taken.
...That is only one small explanation of why I'd rather spend $1 IRL cash instead of 4 hours of boring grinding.
I get what you are saying, but my advice would be to probably find a game that you don't find boring, rather then let these people drip bleed revenue out of your dislike of the game mechanics they have put into the game that they have sold you.
By supporting MT in the way that you see it you open the door for them to make fluff items deliberatly labourious to get in order to encourage you to spend extra RL money in their shop. This already happens in many F2P games and has a huge impact right across the game, making it extra boring for those that choose to NOT buy into the mall.
of course, these people either crack in the end and buy from the mall or quit. Usually the game is designed that you are very invested in it before they hit you like this, so the mall is often to forced choice.
I never understand people who grind what they find boring and "hard work" for 8 hours in an MMO to get that "new loot"
because we find the actual playing of the game fun. We enjoy hanging out with friends, experiencing new stories, and beating the challenge. Winning loot at the end is the final joy. The journey is the point, not the loot at the end.
I have never found an mmo hard work, ever, and I'm an original EQer. If I did I would just log off.
Well that is a very good reason why to boycott MT's in many games.
But I don't believe some games like Champions Online, CoX, or EQ2's mini-expansions (i dont know about its RMT, thats new) or UO's "Advanced Character" are going to change the market to that extreme, so I wouldn't boycott it.
I guess it really depends on the company. If I don't trust them because they are OBVIOUSLY exploitatuve, shady, and greedy, I will boycott ANY form of MT. If I trust them, I dont see the problem. Not every company wants to screw the consumers. Some see that as bad for business.
Also, I'd NEVER buy from Korean RMT games. Their prices and items are ridiculous. $10 for a ninja mask, or $5 for a hat that only lasts for 2 weeks? No thanks!
But the North American RMT's seem perfectly fine for me, except expansions. I will never spent any money on a game that I already pay $15 for, but I dont care if the RMT's exist for people who want to. And if something is REALLY cool, I'd buy it. Maybe. I actually dislike the expensive cost of most expansions, and the fact I am FORCED into buying them. Large amounts of money is different from $1 here or there.
As a player who rarely reaches max level, expansions are awful. Often they have VERY needed features for all levels, but the majority of the content is something I will never experience, so I am essentially paying $20-60 for just one or two minor, but important features to unlock. It can cost as much as $20 just to be able to play as a Blood Elf, and nothing else.
Asian RMTs didn't start off like that, it used to be just aesthetics then, it moved onto power items(xp boost, +dmg , +movespeed)
And it slowly progressed to what you see now, the 2week- 1 month prem items. I would have to agree with everyone on the whole slippery slope idea. Western MMOs are seeing that its more lucrative to go with this payment option and are slowly inching us in to that plan.
You can not pay for anything that makes your character any more unique than eveyone else.
Bull. I spent about $100 on the TCG, got all my UDE points, and spent them on a tabbard that made me quite unique. In fact I only ever saw one other player wearing one during all the years I played the game. There wasn't even any luck in it because the UDE points have a fixed value per booster. It was a direct "Cash Dollar" to "Unique Game Item" relationship.
That kinda stuff doesn't bug me. When I played WoW I didn't care about vanity pets or tabbards. Why? Because they didn't make it easier for anyone with them to tackle content or pvp. Not to mention they weren't earned through ingame achievement. Really its comparing apples to oranges. All RMT aren't the same. Account services that provide no ingame advantage are fine by me, and even welcomed to a degree. To split hairs when the majority of us here have clarified again and again that it's game changing rmts we are against is just...well...trolling.
In any event, I think this particular thread has run it's course, so I'll leave ya'll to it.
All hate for something that doesn't change the balance of PvP is completely illogical and without valid reason. It's as ignorant and unreasonable as the hate mobs that drive to other states to boycott Health Care Reform Town Halls. Those that hate aesthetic MT's are the rednecks of the internet.
Telling other people what to think is childish.
Drawing a weak analogy between a distaste for a game industry payment model and a political debate that will have dire ramifications for future generations of this country is unreasonable.
Making blanket statements with stereotypical racial overtones is ignorant.
Honestly I'm not even going to debate MTs with you, as you've got more serious issues comprehending the realities of everyday life. I'd suggest you spend a little less time trolling game forums and regaling us with your naivety, and a little more time getting an education. At the very least, think twice about dragging your spoon-fed political views into places they don't belong.
/salute
It's not a weak analogy at all.
Ignorance + Hatred + Mob Mentality + Topic = Rednecks spewing hatred at town halls over health care reform.
Ignorance + Hatred + Mob Mentality + Topic = Internet Rednecks spewing hatred at forums over MT reform.
It's the same thing: Ignorance, Hatred, Mob Mentality "Everyone else hates it, so it must be stupid! GRR!" + a topic.
OWNED.
Owned?
Lol, only in your mind my young apprentice.
Look, I know you're feeling your oats a bit here, but get back to me when you can think for yourself instead of simply regurgitating generalizations that you've heard in the media.
Also, I see you changed the original title of the thread a while back, I wonder if that's because you actually learned something or because your ignorance was flamed into oblivion. In any event, you've got a long way to go kiddo.
Expansions add content to the original game. Cash shops deny content or reasonable progression unless you're willing to fork out extra money. In other words, the game is purposefully designed to be tedious and unrewarding in order to incentivise the cash shop. What's really galling is that the industry is pushing for MT / RMT on top of Subscriptions, in essence, double charging, but not producing more content than before.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
You must not play any f2p games. I can buy one item in an item shop and spend more than an entire expansion costs, so you got it backward, cheap expansions and costly RMT.
How come it works so well for World Of Warcraft? Monthly Sub, and than a "Shop" To change how you look, your name, your server, soon your faction. And you think blizzard, being smart and sly enough to do as they do, are not going to do even more things. Remember, faction changing was never allowed. Nor was having opposite faction on the same pvp server. Oh, both changed. Soon, they will offer race changes, and after that, class changes.
But no no, this is WoW, it does not have a store. Obviously since the game is so hated, and has so few people playing, it proves a MT/Monthly thing does not work one bit. It also proves that games will never move in that direction either. They way they handle it, similar to Guild Wars, is a store. It's just funny how people yell, scream, nerdrage, or what have you whenever MT/RMT/IM/IGM or any other name you could give it is mentioned. It is not EXACTLY the same for different games, but it is still the same theme. Just it's okay for wow to do it, and that game is okay, but any other game /bad game!
I disagree with you.
What WoW does is not the same as rmt in other games. You can pay to change your server or recustomize your character (you get the same options as everyone has when creating there character). Or you can change your name. You can not pay for anything that makes your character any more unique than eveyone else.
And I will quit playing WoW if they ever offer class changes.
Then you did not fully read my post. You're still buying from the shop. You may not be able to look unique, but you are still paying money, outside of the monthly subscription for something in game are you not? That is still the shop, just in a different sort of way.
Again, people are perfectly okay with wow offering services, that WILL expand to include more things, especially as subs dwindle in light of D3/New MMO/Other games. Class changes, race changes, among other things are not all that far away.
Yet there is no fuss from people about that, yet "OH GOD, SHE HAS PINK HAIR, I CAN'T GET THAT EXACT PINK HAIR, THIS GAME BLOWS AND I HAVEN'T PLAYED IT". That's about what I hear people screaming about RMT. Before they know what type of shop it is, the game is bad, it sucks, etc, etc, etc, etc.
I hear crimecraft is going to be monthly with a shop. From playing the game though, I would not be suprised if it is the BAD type of shop.
There is no comparison between expansions and RMT’s. With an expansion we buy as a player base, with RMT’s we unfairly advantage ourselves over other players.
Fluff is fluff, having pink hair is not a big issue for me, but once that’s been accepted it can lead to a pink health boost.
Changing servers should be charged for, that stops server hopping disrupting the player base. Class, gender and name changes just should not be allowed, it is not the issue of paying for them which just makes it worse. Class hopping could potential destroy the class balance in a MMO. Gender and name changes make a mockery of immersion and social interaction on the server. If someone can change their name, would you trust anyone not in your guild?
Expansion = pay for more content to do. RMT = pay to skip content.
Absolutely agree. Charge me more per month, or hit me with an occasional expansion where I am rewarded for effort. Don't give me a dropdown menu that'll let me just get shit with a couple clicks and a valid cc.
I agree as well, and prefer payed expansions as one of the lesser evils.
But I stick with my point that payed expansions are not good for the mmorpg genre either.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
9 pages of people's opinions and now I'll offer mine.
No one here can definitively say that RMT and expansion are different or the same because RMT is too broad. There are too many ways RMT can be implemented. Some are exactly the same as an expansion (DDO's supplying zones, or fluff items available through RMT or expansion), some are very very different (significant XP boosts and advantageous items through RMT not available through expansions).
The only thing we can definitively say is that RMT can be similiar or dissimiliar to expansions depending on how the RMT and expansions are done.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
9 pages of people's opinions and now I'll offer mine. No one here can definitively say that RMT and expansion are different or the same because RMT is too broad. There are too many ways RMT can be implemented. Some are exactly the same as an expansion (DDO's supplying zones, or fluff items available through RMT or expansion), some are very very different (significant XP boosts and advantageous items through RMT not available through expansions). The only thing we can definitively say is that RMT can be similiar or dissimiliar to expansions depending on how the RMT and expansions are done. Venge Sunsoar
RMT [Real Money Transactions] have always been defined as paying real money for virtual items. It is not the same as paying real money for content expansions. RMT by its very nature is the act of paying money to avoid gameplay and still receive the virtual item.
The original of RMT comes from people replacing in game currency with Real Money for ingame Transactions. Thus, where you get RMT from.
People are intentionally trying to blur the lines between content expansions and RMT issues which are only related to buying ingame rewards. Using this slippery revisionist definition would mean that simply buying the original game off the shelves of best buy is considered RMT. I think anyone can see just how absurd that is.
9 pages of people's opinions and now I'll offer mine. No one here can definitively say that RMT and expansion are different or the same because RMT is too broad. There are too many ways RMT can be implemented. Some are exactly the same as an expansion (DDO's supplying zones, or fluff items available through RMT or expansion), some are very very different (significant XP boosts and advantageous items through RMT not available through expansions). The only thing we can definitively say is that RMT can be similiar or dissimiliar to expansions depending on how the RMT and expansions are done. Venge Sunsoar
RMT [Real Money Transactions] have always been defined as paying real money for virtual items. It is not the same as paying real money for content expansions. RMT by its very nature is the act of paying money to avoid gameplay and still receive the virtual item.
The original of RMT comes from people replacing in game currency with Real Money for ingame Transactions. Thus, where you get RMT from.
People are intentionally trying to blur the lines between content expansions and RMT issues which are only related to buying ingame rewards. Using this slippery revisionist definition would mean that simply buying the original game off the shelves of best buy is considered RMT. I think anyone can see just how absurd that is.
No it is not just paying real money for items. Nor is it paying money to avoid gameplay. That may be how it was in the past, or it may be how it is with most games but it is not the only definition, possibly not even the most prevalent definition (although it probably still is) and times are changing, and definitions change as well.
The only thing RMT stands for is paying Real Money for anything that is not the monthly sub or box price. People in this thread are not intentionally blurring the lines. The lines are being allready blurred by game devolopers themselves experimenting with the cost model and offering things that are outside of the subscription model.
Once again just because something was done a certain way in the past doesn't mean it was always like that, nor does it mean that is the only way to do it. It has changed before and it is changing now again.
I do consider DDO's model of paying for various areas to be RMT and I am not the only one. You may not. It doesn't mean that I am wrong, it doesn't mean that you are wrong. It does mean we have different opinion on what constitutes RMT.
Fluff items are RMT and there is nothing about fluff items that mean avoided gameplay. We are not even talking about repeated RMT because these are one time things that are never needed to be purchased again.
Buying the game off the shelf could be a form of RMT because often the game off the shelf comes with something extra that cannot be gotten in game, and often the box on the shelf is offered repeatedly with various different things. So someone can buy multiple copies, and have the extra peice applied to their account. To me there is no difference between that and traditional RMT.
Example in EQ (without using the "traditional" RMT model") I can pick up what 11 different expansions with the box, each one offering something unique. But becuase I still have my sub and because the original expansion didn't have that particular item (there was something different) I don't have those items. So I can just go to my local EB or digital download, redownload the expansions again and get the cool items. This is above and beyond the sub, and the expansion because I allready hav them. So it is the same.
In essence the definitions are changing because the cost models are changing.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I still think people are blurring the line of RMT to suit an opinion rather than what it actually is.
Selling zones individually are just different means of selling expansion content in various different packages. When you cut through all the obfuscating of the subject, that is all they are: different sized expansion packs. Different methods to sell and buy expansions which add content for a game. Just because some people want to think of them as rmt, doesn't make it so.
RMT has always been using real life money as a replacement for ingame currency to achieve ingame rewards. It is not and has never been about buying expansions, regardless of their size, nor limited to the original box sale or subscription fee.
Paying for fluff items is rmt, because you don't do anything in game to achieve those items. It is no different than spending money to buy a sword of power. The concept is that same.
Paying for a content expansion (1 zone or the entire continent) doesn't grant your character any of the rewards of that zone. They must go out to achieve them. There is no money transaction that grants 10 character levels, a sword of power or any fluff items as soon as someone logs in. The money is being spent for players to have new potential to PLAY the game and achieve rewards.
After buying a content expansion (no matter how big or small) and logging in, your character is exactly the same as it was prior to the purchase. If you never do anything with that character in the new content, then effectively the character has gained nothing.
Which is in direct contrast to RMT item purchases. Once a purchase for a fluff item or sword of power is made, it cannot be undone. If you log that character in and never even hit a single keystroke, that character still benefits from the purchase. The transaction of real money for ingame reward has occured and rewards are set.
I understand definitions change, but this ins't one of those cases. You can't simply label anything that has a price tag as rmt. Even if you try to put in some unseen asterisk that exlcudes the original purchase and sub fee or somehow to encompass content expansions, it is not the same.
Comments
Lets get back on subject and cut out the BIG LETTERS, because BIG LETTERS don't make points any more valid or sensible.
The core point that so many have made here is that MT sucks in a game when it destroys achievement. This has been said again again. Achievement is the key word.
If DDO is selling content that expects you to learn it and 'beat' it, then thats obviously fine. No argument. I personally put that into the meta game optional service bracket and nothing to do with the ruiniation of achievement based gaming. It has nothing to do with the vast majority of points being made here.
DDO's consumables are another point. Lets please stop pretending right now that the DDO shop, beyond offering content 'modules', is 'doing things right', when it is as bad as anything out there.
You cannot introduce healing pots, resist pots, buffs, hirelings, loot modifiers, spell pots, and rez cakes into a game as MT items and not expect it to change core play dynamics. I mean, look at this list;
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=185996
Also, check out this guys post about what he got for 3300 points ($38.99), it was pretty shocking to me personally;
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=191595
So much for sale in DDO's shop is obviously aimed at the soloer which, in turn, of course leads to the classic cycle of less people forming groups, making it harder to get a group, so more people solo, which means less people form groups, making it harder to get a... and so on until you are looking at having to buy shop consumables to just even play the game. Alone. This is obviously not happened by accident.
So much for 'free'.
Back on track though, just to clarify, this is my perspective;
Meta game services (transfers, extra slots, etc) are fine. They do not effect achievement in game or upset any kind of balance.
Additional ingame zones that simply are new adventures to be played and 'beaten' are fine, in theory. I remember quite enjoying the early 'adventure packs' that SOE put out for EQ2 as additional content. They were fun (imo), challenging, and not overpowered items wise. As long as all the best items arnt stacked in these 'optional' MT zones and they arnt made super easy, then I have no issues with them.
Buying in game rewards, fluff or otherwise, is just weak as a gamer imo. It takes no knowledge, no skill, and no investment. I see you with a $10 cape on your character and I just think you are a fool, nothing else, even if I am wearing rags.
From the dev POV, it is a dishonest and insidious revenue model that exploits your addiction, epeen envy, laziness, and greed (from behind the scenes via game design without you being aware of it) to ensure that you spend more on the game then you would have via a sub. There is no other reason for the item mall model to even exist then to drip bleed more cash from you. This is why the 'F2P' companies love it so much- they simply get more money out of you for the same (or less) work on their part.
The people actually defending mall selling in game items are really just defending the gradual transformation of real games into dumb virtual market spaces, with just the thin veneer of a ez mode game laid over the top to hook the gullible in. They have fallen for the sellers propaganda and hype, and that makes me more then a little sad.
On a related note, why it is that every game that isnt good enough to support a sub revenue model goes Item Mall these days? Is it just because the minority who do like the failed sub games will spend more in a mall then they would on a sub, making the game more profitable off a smaller player base? If so, by definition, MT must cost the individual more then a sub would right? Otherwise why bother changing from a sub model to a MT one?
Oh and btw Arch, your pricing of $60 for an expansion is blatantly ridiculous. If your gonna attempt to prove a point, at least base it on some kind of reality. Like I said before, looking at the real price of an expansion, your list of equivalent MT features starts to look really really expensive, even if the prices are just made up (and more then a little 'optimistic').
and before I go, telling people to 'discuss' your points in your first post, and then then claiming the question was 'rhetorical' in your last dosent make any sense at all.
Achivevements.
I call it "virtual power". Whatever we call it, its the same.
If people can buy it using real money legally from the game item mall, its wrong, globally, no exceptions.
Noone can make an argument against virtual power being bought with real money being acceptable. Thats imoral and in the future it will be against the law.
Any item that affects XP gain is not aesthetical. It doesnt matter if there is a level cap and bought eventually will reach it. Its a falacy. What matters is that there is a frame of time in wich there is a difference in virtual power caused by real money used in the cash shop.
I offen hear people saying "they dont have time", therefore "they cant compete". They try to justify buying virtual power with real money. Its a falacy as well. Its a losing excuse like any other, and no excuses justify real money as a solution.
Another falacy, "Buying virtual power with real money through RMT is ok, because people can buy in the blackmarket as well".
In one, if people get caught, they are banned. In the other, nothing happens. in fact, in games where people can buy virtual power in cash shops, you notice wide game changes with the objective of forcing people to spend more money.
Falacy from the Developers after adding virtual power to the item malls/cash shops: "We have to pay the server costs".
Nothing justify such a change. Or they do it from the get go, informing everyone and people who play do it knowing how it works: "to compete I will have to spend real money, ok, I understand and accept it". Or they are breaking the goodwill of the contract, causing damage to the consumer, wich is not acceptable. If they do that, they have to indemnize, wich will hinder the ability to pay server costs even more.
Its part of the risk of the business principle that companies known from the start what are their servers costs and if they will be able to pay it under the rules of the contract. In this case, the contract say: WE WILL NOT HAVE IN OUR CASH SHOP ANY ITEM THAT AFFECTS DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY THE VIRTUAL POWER OF CHARACTERS SINCE WE ARE ONLY OFFERING AESTHETIC/COSMETHICAL ITEMS.
Once defined, it cant be changed, neither justified. And if changed, they can be sued for it.
Stating your Prejudice against "Pay to win" RMT models is one of the ways to educate and evolve the communitys of mmo player, it is one of the ways to force changes.
If we started labeling such rmt models and filtering them on the big communities along with all the following prejudice, soon enough game companies would stop this ridiculous way of forcing people into giving them money.
I propose this:
Subscription, pay per month
Free to play, pay to win
Free to play, aesthetical items
Add "pay to win" to all MMOs that have any item that affects virtual power, directly or indirectly. And soon companies would start making changes just so they would be one of the "aestheticla items" free to play games, just so they can enjoy the fairness reputation it comes with and the popularity, because people would certainly start considering if they want to play "pay to win" or "aesthetical items" free to play games.
All I have to say is LOL.
How do expansions unbalance a game?
If I refused to buy WoW WotLK do you think I would be able to remain competitive in open PvP? No. Of course not. The entire balance of the game would have changed.
If you refused to buy the expansion, then you probably don't like the game (meaning you shouldn't play it).
If you enjoy playing the game then you would have no problem buying the expansion.
Mr. Bagguns
Lets get back on subject and cut out the BIG LETTERS, because BIG LETTERS don't make points any more valid or sensible.
The core point that so many have made here is that MT sucks in a game when it destroys achievement. This has been said again again. Achievement is the key word.
If DDO is selling content that expects you to learn it and 'beat' it, then thats obviously fine. No argument. I personally put that into the meta game optional service bracket and nothing to do with the ruiniation of achievement based gaming. It has nothing to do with the vast majority of points being made here.
DDO's consumables are another point. Lets please stop pretending right now that the DDO shop, beyond offering content 'modules', is 'doing things right', when it is as bad as anything out there.
You cannot introduce healing pots, resist pots, buffs, hirelings, loot modifiers, spell pots, and rez cakes into a game as MT items and not expect it to change core play dynamics. I mean, look at this list;
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=185996
Also, check out this guys post about what he got for 3300 points ($38.99), it was pretty shocking to me personally;
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=191595
So much for sale in DDO's shop is obviously aimed at the soloer which, in turn, of course leads to the classic cycle of less people forming groups, making it harder to get a group, so more people solo, which means less people form groups, making it harder to get a... and so on until you are looking at having to buy shop consumables to just even play the game. Alone. This is obviously not happened by accident.
So much for 'free'.
Back on track though, just to clarify, this is my perspective;
Meta game services (transfers, extra slots, etc) are fine. They do not effect achievement in game or upset any kind of balance.
Additional ingame zones that simply are new adventures to be played and 'beaten' are fine, in theory. I remember quite enjoying the early 'adventure packs' that SOE put out for EQ2 as additional content. They were fun (imo), challenging, and not overpowered items wise. As long as all the best items arnt stacked in these 'optional' MT zones and they arnt made super easy, then I have no issues with them.
Buying in game rewards, fluff or otherwise, is just weak as a gamer imo. It takes no knowledge, no skill, and no investment. I see you with a $10 cape on your character and I just think you are a fool, nothing else, even if I am wearing rags.
From the dev POV, it is a dishonest and insidious revenue model that exploits your addiction, epeen envy, laziness, and greed (from behind the scenes via game design without you being aware of it) to ensure that you spend more on the game then you would have via a sub. There is no other reason for the item mall model to even exist then to drip bleed more cash from you. This is why the 'F2P' companies love it so much- they simply get more money out of you for the same (or less) work on their part.
The people actually defending mall selling in game items are really just defending the gradual transformation of real games into dumb virtual market spaces, with just the thin veneer of a ez mode game laid over the top to hook the gullible in. They have fallen for the sellers propaganda and hype, and that makes me more then a little sad.
On a related note, why it is that every game that isnt good enough to support a sub revenue model goes Item Mall these days? Is it just because the minority who do like the failed sub games will spend more in a mall then they would on a sub, making the game more profitable off a smaller player base? If so, by definition, MT must cost the individual more then a sub would right? Otherwise why bother changing from a sub model to a MT one?
Oh and btw Arch, your pricing of $60 for an expansion is blatantly ridiculous. If your gonna attempt to prove a point, at least base it on some kind of reality. Like I said before, looking at the real price of an expansion, your list of equivalent MT features starts to look really really expensive, even if the prices are just made up (and more then a little 'optimistic').
Btw Arch, telling people to 'discuss' your points in your first post, and then then claiming the question was 'rhetorical' in your last dosent make any sense at all.
That is a slap in the face right there.
I agree with vesavius, don't change what your saying Arch.
Mr. Bagguns
Only in a MMO could a gaming company expect players to pay micro transactions for what is effectively a cheat code. In solo games you can get health boosts, extra armour and the like as a cheat code (which are built in by the programmers). In MMO’s they expect you to pay for this.
If we were expected to pay more to unlock cheat codes in solo games there would be uproar. It is happening in MMO’s and player’s line up to defend it, do MMO’s breed naivete or something?
Very true! And from my experience, as soon as I start messin with cheats in single player games, they lose all appeal to me, because they throw the sense of accomplishment right out the window.
Very true! And from my experience, as soon as I start messin with cheats in single player games, they lose all appeal to me, because they throw the sense of accomplishment right out the window.
A little off topic here, from me. I can't remember which game it was but it was an FPS war game. I wanted to use a cheat code because I pretty much suck at FPS games. Well, this game didn't have any and I was like "Fuck that, I'm not playing this damn game." Well after sometime had gone by I decided "What the hell I'll give it a try." It was probably the most fun I had in an FPS and it was all because I couldn't cheat. I didn't realize how much I had ruined the other FPS games I had played because I had used cheat codes to get through. When I got to the end of that war campaign I felt like I had actually lived through it and felt glad to have done it with no cheats. What an awesome feeling that was.
On topic, that's what RMT does. It takes away from the feeling of accomplishment for that certain item you wanted. When you finally get it, what a great feeling. If you can just buy it, why play for it?
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
As a Guildwars player I can answer that.
First in GW you don't need any expansion. It is some small advantages with owning them all since there is some gear, heroes and skills you get from the expansions. However can you both PvE and PvP well without them
You don't have to have the expansion, I just bought mines because I kinda had run out of things to do and wanted to support a great game. I have totally payed something like $90 for GW.
In a RMT game you need to buy equipment or spend ages farming it, otherwise your PvP will suck and your endgame gear wont be good enough. Someone conted 200-300 bucks for the gear in ROM, a lot more cash which you get a lot less for.
The +10 levels expansion however doesn't exist in GW and that is good, those things are slowly killing the game in the long run. After a while only the 10 last levels matter, the rest is just a tutorial which take a long time to complete.
Having both monthly fees and paid for expansions however is kinda high way robbery. You would have thought that 10 or 15 bucks a month should be enough to pay for extra content also, if it can't they should raise the fee a buck or 2 instead. Same things go for monthly fees and RMT.
.........the question is the entire source of this thread.
If I say the expansions in the question are costly, and the RMT is cheap, then the expansions are costly and RMT is cheap.
I am not asking "What is the difference between the average MMO expansion and the average MMO RMT shop?"
I specifically gave the example of what exactly the expansion and RMT shop has to offer, and exactly how much they cost.
=================================
If an expansion cost $60, and gives you
1) One new island.
2) 5 More Levels
3) 1 New Race
4) 1 New Class
5) 3 New Features
6) One special item
and RMT shop has these things for sale:
1) One new island. $20
2) 5 More Levels $20
3) 1 New Race $6
4) 1 New Class $6
5) 3 New Features $2 each
6) One special item $2
7) 2hours Double XP for $5
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?
===============================
The problem with people in this thread is their inability to read and comprehend basic english.
You are purposefully trying to confuse RMT with expansions and they are not the same thing.
In your "RMT" examples I have highlighted in orange the items that are typically associated with RMT. The other items are what is typically called a digital download.
You are comparing a company selling and expansion as a whole product versus them selling it in pieces and trying to tuck a few RMT examples in there in a weak attempt to justify your stance. Honestly according to your twisting of the meanings anyone who buys the original game box is engaging in microtransactions right? They are spending money on content and that is what you are trying to twist into RMT for sake of your flawed theory.
In case you missed what was said above. Please read and comprehend the following.
**Originally posted by Ihmotepp**
Expansion = pay for more content to do.
RMT = pay to skip content.
Can you see the difference now? Don't get angry when no one is agreeing with you. The question that is the source of this thread you actually ninja edited after people tore you up. Perhaps you should go back and actually read the thread to see what it discusses instead of working so hard to be right. You might just learn something.
How come it works so well for World Of Warcraft? Monthly Sub, and than a "Shop" To change how you look, your name, your server, soon your faction. And you think blizzard, being smart and sly enough to do as they do, are not going to do even more things. Remember, faction changing was never allowed. Nor was having opposite faction on the same pvp server. Oh, both changed.
Soon, they will offer race changes, and after that, class changes.
But no no, this is WoW, it does not have a store. Obviously since the game is so hated, and has so few people playing, it proves a MT/Monthly thing does not work one bit. It also proves that games will never move in that direction either.
They way they handle it, similar to Guild Wars, is a store. It's just funny how people yell, scream, nerdrage, or what have you whenever MT/RMT/IM/IGM or any other name you could give it is mentioned. It is not EXACTLY the same for different games, but it is still the same theme. Just it's okay for wow to do it, and that game is okay, but any other game /bad game!
Bit of a difference IMO in offering in game items and offering an apearance change, server change or class change. The only similarity is the additional income that a company makes off either service. Offering a convienent service for people who do not like their initial apearance choice or would like to change faction/server to play with friends is a HUGE difference IMO from offering in game items or content for those too lazy or too time strapped to attain it in game. Money should never be a factor for someone to attain the exact same things other players have in game (asthetic or non asthetic items).
All that said, I am not one to go off and complain about it, If that is there model, I just won't play, If a game I currently play tries to adapt that payment scheme, I will also quit. I realize that different payment models apeal to different people, so no biggie. Ill just stick to pay per month games.
I disagree with you.
What WoW does is not the same as rmt in other games. You can pay to change your server or recustomize your character (you get the same options as everyone has when creating there character). Or you can change your name. You can not pay for anything that makes your character any more unique than eveyone else.
And I will quit playing WoW if they ever offer class changes.
Mr. Bagguns
Bull. I spent about $100 on the TCG, got all my UDE points, and spent them on a tabbard that made me quite unique. In fact I only ever saw one other player wearing one during all the years I played the game. There wasn't even any luck in it because the UDE points have a fixed value per booster. It was a direct "Cash Dollar" to "Unique Game Item" relationship.
The rude tone of your OP aside, Pay to Achieve gaming is just weak, no matter if the the purchased rewards have stats or not.
My personal views on how ingame MT of any kind destroys the very fabric of what makes a game a game (turning it into just another virtual environment to spend money in) aside, I have no idea why people gain any satisfaction at all from buying virtual baubles in a virtual environment with RL money... It's just really confusing to me. Why do you WANT to spend money on content in a game when the game really should be fun enough to make you want to play through it in order to earn it?
I simply don't get the thrill of spending cash on a new cloak (or whatever) in CO knowing that I could have actually enjoyed playing the game to win it.
I'm sorry, I apologize for the rude tone.
It's kindof hard not to be rude on the internet. I know it's counter-productive to conversation to start out rude, but it does filter out the people who are so insecure or sensitive that they can't handle a debate without emotions being involved or thinking every negative word is directed straight at them.
Statement Reads: Hatred as an emotion is Childish.
They Read: Disliking MT's makes YOU a child.
"OMG, I DISLIKE MT'S, SO I'm A CHILD!?!? GRRRRGHRR!!!"
Always failing to realize it's not MT's, but the bad attitude, and it's not you, but the extremists, who are CHILDISH, not a child.
Maybe I should write in a foreign language.
Hatred for = "If you disagree,"
Aethetic MT's = YOU!
"is Childish" = "are a CHILD!"
But expecting people to read on the INTERNET is the first sign of Insanity.
How about expecting people to actually answer the question I asked them?
edit to highlight the question for clarity :P
Sry, Ididn't even read all of that. I must've got distracted IRL at the very end, and thought I finished. Common mistake, didn't mean the disrespect.
It's cool, no offense taken.
...That is only one small explanation of why I'd rather spend $1 IRL cash instead of 4 hours of boring grinding.
I get what you are saying, but my advice would be to probably find a game that you don't find boring, rather then let these people drip bleed revenue out of your dislike of the game mechanics they have put into the game that they have sold you.
By supporting MT in the way that you see it you open the door for them to make fluff items deliberatly labourious to get in order to encourage you to spend extra RL money in their shop. This already happens in many F2P games and has a huge impact right across the game, making it extra boring for those that choose to NOT buy into the mall.
of course, these people either crack in the end and buy from the mall or quit. Usually the game is designed that you are very invested in it before they hit you like this, so the mall is often to forced choice.
I never understand people who grind what they find boring and "hard work" for 8 hours in an MMO to get that "new loot"
because we find the actual playing of the game fun. We enjoy hanging out with friends, experiencing new stories, and beating the challenge. Winning loot at the end is the final joy. The journey is the point, not the loot at the end.
I have never found an mmo hard work, ever, and I'm an original EQer. If I did I would just log off.
Well that is a very good reason why to boycott MT's in many games.
But I don't believe some games like Champions Online, CoX, or EQ2's mini-expansions (i dont know about its RMT, thats new) or UO's "Advanced Character" are going to change the market to that extreme, so I wouldn't boycott it.
I guess it really depends on the company. If I don't trust them because they are OBVIOUSLY exploitatuve, shady, and greedy, I will boycott ANY form of MT. If I trust them, I dont see the problem. Not every company wants to screw the consumers. Some see that as bad for business.
Also, I'd NEVER buy from Korean RMT games. Their prices and items are ridiculous. $10 for a ninja mask, or $5 for a hat that only lasts for 2 weeks? No thanks!
But the North American RMT's seem perfectly fine for me, except expansions. I will never spent any money on a game that I already pay $15 for, but I dont care if the RMT's exist for people who want to. And if something is REALLY cool, I'd buy it. Maybe. I actually dislike the expensive cost of most expansions, and the fact I am FORCED into buying them. Large amounts of money is different from $1 here or there.
As a player who rarely reaches max level, expansions are awful. Often they have VERY needed features for all levels, but the majority of the content is something I will never experience, so I am essentially paying $20-60 for just one or two minor, but important features to unlock. It can cost as much as $20 just to be able to play as a Blood Elf, and nothing else.
Asian RMTs didn't start off like that, it used to be just aesthetics then, it moved onto power items(xp boost, +dmg , +movespeed)
And it slowly progressed to what you see now, the 2week- 1 month prem items. I would have to agree with everyone on the whole slippery slope idea. Western MMOs are seeing that its more lucrative to go with this payment option and are slowly inching us in to that plan.
Bull. I spent about $100 on the TCG, got all my UDE points, and spent them on a tabbard that made me quite unique. In fact I only ever saw one other player wearing one during all the years I played the game. There wasn't even any luck in it because the UDE points have a fixed value per booster. It was a direct "Cash Dollar" to "Unique Game Item" relationship.
That kinda stuff doesn't bug me. When I played WoW I didn't care about vanity pets or tabbards. Why? Because they didn't make it easier for anyone with them to tackle content or pvp. Not to mention they weren't earned through ingame achievement. Really its comparing apples to oranges. All RMT aren't the same. Account services that provide no ingame advantage are fine by me, and even welcomed to a degree. To split hairs when the majority of us here have clarified again and again that it's game changing rmts we are against is just...well...trolling.
In any event, I think this particular thread has run it's course, so I'll leave ya'll to it.
Telling other people what to think is childish.
Drawing a weak analogy between a distaste for a game industry payment model and a political debate that will have dire ramifications for future generations of this country is unreasonable.
Making blanket statements with stereotypical racial overtones is ignorant.
Honestly I'm not even going to debate MTs with you, as you've got more serious issues comprehending the realities of everyday life. I'd suggest you spend a little less time trolling game forums and regaling us with your naivety, and a little more time getting an education. At the very least, think twice about dragging your spoon-fed political views into places they don't belong.
/salute
It's not a weak analogy at all.
Ignorance + Hatred + Mob Mentality + Topic = Rednecks spewing hatred at town halls over health care reform.
Ignorance + Hatred + Mob Mentality + Topic = Internet Rednecks spewing hatred at forums over MT reform.
It's the same thing: Ignorance, Hatred, Mob Mentality "Everyone else hates it, so it must be stupid! GRR!" + a topic.
OWNED.
Owned?
Lol, only in your mind my young apprentice.
Look, I know you're feeling your oats a bit here, but get back to me when you can think for yourself instead of simply regurgitating generalizations that you've heard in the media.
Also, I see you changed the original title of the thread a while back, I wonder if that's because you actually learned something or because your ignorance was flamed into oblivion. In any event, you've got a long way to go kiddo.
Expansions add content to the original game. Cash shops deny content or reasonable progression unless you're willing to fork out extra money. In other words, the game is purposefully designed to be tedious and unrewarding in order to incentivise the cash shop. What's really galling is that the industry is pushing for MT / RMT on top of Subscriptions, in essence, double charging, but not producing more content than before.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
You must not play any f2p games. I can buy one item in an item shop and spend more than an entire expansion costs, so you got it backward, cheap expansions and costly RMT.
I disagree with you.
What WoW does is not the same as rmt in other games. You can pay to change your server or recustomize your character (you get the same options as everyone has when creating there character). Or you can change your name. You can not pay for anything that makes your character any more unique than eveyone else.
And I will quit playing WoW if they ever offer class changes.
Then you did not fully read my post. You're still buying from the shop. You may not be able to look unique, but you are still paying money, outside of the monthly subscription for something in game are you not? That is still the shop, just in a different sort of way.
Again, people are perfectly okay with wow offering services, that WILL expand to include more things, especially as subs dwindle in light of D3/New MMO/Other games. Class changes, race changes, among other things are not all that far away.
Yet there is no fuss from people about that, yet "OH GOD, SHE HAS PINK HAIR, I CAN'T GET THAT EXACT PINK HAIR, THIS GAME BLOWS AND I HAVEN'T PLAYED IT". That's about what I hear people screaming about RMT. Before they know what type of shop it is, the game is bad, it sucks, etc, etc, etc, etc.
I hear crimecraft is going to be monthly with a shop. From playing the game though, I would not be suprised if it is the BAD type of shop.
There is no comparison between expansions and RMT’s. With an expansion we buy as a player base, with RMT’s we unfairly advantage ourselves over other players.
Fluff is fluff, having pink hair is not a big issue for me, but once that’s been accepted it can lead to a pink health boost.
Changing servers should be charged for, that stops server hopping disrupting the player base. Class, gender and name changes just should not be allowed, it is not the issue of paying for them which just makes it worse. Class hopping could potential destroy the class balance in a MMO. Gender and name changes make a mockery of immersion and social interaction on the server. If someone can change their name, would you trust anyone not in your guild?
Absolutely agree. Charge me more per month, or hit me with an occasional expansion where I am rewarded for effort. Don't give me a dropdown menu that'll let me just get shit with a couple clicks and a valid cc.
I agree as well, and prefer payed expansions as one of the lesser evils.
But I stick with my point that payed expansions are not good for the mmorpg genre either.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
9 pages of people's opinions and now I'll offer mine.
No one here can definitively say that RMT and expansion are different or the same because RMT is too broad. There are too many ways RMT can be implemented. Some are exactly the same as an expansion (DDO's supplying zones, or fluff items available through RMT or expansion), some are very very different (significant XP boosts and advantageous items through RMT not available through expansions).
The only thing we can definitively say is that RMT can be similiar or dissimiliar to expansions depending on how the RMT and expansions are done.
Venge Sunsoar
RMT [Real Money Transactions] have always been defined as paying real money for virtual items. It is not the same as paying real money for content expansions. RMT by its very nature is the act of paying money to avoid gameplay and still receive the virtual item.
The original of RMT comes from people replacing in game currency with Real Money for ingame Transactions. Thus, where you get RMT from.
People are intentionally trying to blur the lines between content expansions and RMT issues which are only related to buying ingame rewards. Using this slippery revisionist definition would mean that simply buying the original game off the shelves of best buy is considered RMT. I think anyone can see just how absurd that is.
RMT [Real Money Transactions] have always been defined as paying real money for virtual items. It is not the same as paying real money for content expansions. RMT by its very nature is the act of paying money to avoid gameplay and still receive the virtual item.
The original of RMT comes from people replacing in game currency with Real Money for ingame Transactions. Thus, where you get RMT from.
People are intentionally trying to blur the lines between content expansions and RMT issues which are only related to buying ingame rewards. Using this slippery revisionist definition would mean that simply buying the original game off the shelves of best buy is considered RMT. I think anyone can see just how absurd that is.
No it is not just paying real money for items. Nor is it paying money to avoid gameplay. That may be how it was in the past, or it may be how it is with most games but it is not the only definition, possibly not even the most prevalent definition (although it probably still is) and times are changing, and definitions change as well.
The only thing RMT stands for is paying Real Money for anything that is not the monthly sub or box price. People in this thread are not intentionally blurring the lines. The lines are being allready blurred by game devolopers themselves experimenting with the cost model and offering things that are outside of the subscription model.
Once again just because something was done a certain way in the past doesn't mean it was always like that, nor does it mean that is the only way to do it. It has changed before and it is changing now again.
I do consider DDO's model of paying for various areas to be RMT and I am not the only one. You may not. It doesn't mean that I am wrong, it doesn't mean that you are wrong. It does mean we have different opinion on what constitutes RMT.
Fluff items are RMT and there is nothing about fluff items that mean avoided gameplay. We are not even talking about repeated RMT because these are one time things that are never needed to be purchased again.
Buying the game off the shelf could be a form of RMT because often the game off the shelf comes with something extra that cannot be gotten in game, and often the box on the shelf is offered repeatedly with various different things. So someone can buy multiple copies, and have the extra peice applied to their account. To me there is no difference between that and traditional RMT.
Example in EQ (without using the "traditional" RMT model") I can pick up what 11 different expansions with the box, each one offering something unique. But becuase I still have my sub and because the original expansion didn't have that particular item (there was something different) I don't have those items. So I can just go to my local EB or digital download, redownload the expansions again and get the cool items. This is above and beyond the sub, and the expansion because I allready hav them. So it is the same.
In essence the definitions are changing because the cost models are changing.
Venge Sunsoar
I still think people are blurring the line of RMT to suit an opinion rather than what it actually is.
Selling zones individually are just different means of selling expansion content in various different packages. When you cut through all the obfuscating of the subject, that is all they are: different sized expansion packs. Different methods to sell and buy expansions which add content for a game. Just because some people want to think of them as rmt, doesn't make it so.
RMT has always been using real life money as a replacement for ingame currency to achieve ingame rewards. It is not and has never been about buying expansions, regardless of their size, nor limited to the original box sale or subscription fee.
Paying for fluff items is rmt, because you don't do anything in game to achieve those items. It is no different than spending money to buy a sword of power. The concept is that same.
Paying for a content expansion (1 zone or the entire continent) doesn't grant your character any of the rewards of that zone. They must go out to achieve them. There is no money transaction that grants 10 character levels, a sword of power or any fluff items as soon as someone logs in. The money is being spent for players to have new potential to PLAY the game and achieve rewards.
After buying a content expansion (no matter how big or small) and logging in, your character is exactly the same as it was prior to the purchase. If you never do anything with that character in the new content, then effectively the character has gained nothing.
Which is in direct contrast to RMT item purchases. Once a purchase for a fluff item or sword of power is made, it cannot be undone. If you log that character in and never even hit a single keystroke, that character still benefits from the purchase. The transaction of real money for ingame reward has occured and rewards are set.
I understand definitions change, but this ins't one of those cases. You can't simply label anything that has a price tag as rmt. Even if you try to put in some unseen asterisk that exlcudes the original purchase and sub fee or somehow to encompass content expansions, it is not the same.