"Making things up"? That's a pretty serious allegation. Your own words I quoted say it all. If you like to elaborate, please do. It would be fun to see your interpretation of.... "Aventurine going belly-up is probably the best thing that could happen to DarkFall. DarkFall might stand a chance of getting picked up by a competent developer, and realize at least a portion of it's potential."
What games do you actually like? Perhaps that will give us insight on what you mean by a "competent developer". All the so called developers considered competent, like Blizzard, SoE and the like, merely put out easy to consume products. Nothing wrong with that, as many people love gentle games with no risk. -CC
China... Come on.
You seem to be a pretty intelligent person, and I think you know darn well the point he made by highlighting those two specific statements in red. It's pretty obvious. I think you're being deliberately obtuse here.
But just in case...
His point, as I read it, is that if AV goes under, that hopefully a "competent developer" - as in, one that would do DF justice by getting it closer to what it was hyped to be - would pick it up, correct the glaring issues and turn it into the game everyone's waited for all these years, and make it work.
He's not referring to a developer who would pick it up and try to turn it into a themepark game with PvP by consent only, etc.
Now, xyzax can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm pretty certain that's what he meant.
Bingo!
As, my original post shows, the idea that:
Competent developers = large corporate souless gaming comapnies
DID NOT come from me... that is pure ChinaCat there.
Not sure why he wants to project the insecurities he has with Aventurine's incompetence onto someone else... but I'll leave that to him to explain.
I stand by my original analysis. The best thing that could happen to DarkFall is if Aventurine goes bankrupt, sells it, or some other scenario that delivers DarkFall into the hands of another developer who knows what they are doing.
"Making things up"? That's a pretty serious allegation. Your own words I quoted say it all. If you like to elaborate, please do. It would be fun to see your interpretation of.... "Aventurine going belly-up is probably the best thing that could happen to DarkFall. DarkFall might stand a chance of getting picked up by a competent developer, and realize at least a portion of it's potential."
What games do you actually like? Perhaps that will give us insight on what you mean by a "competent developer". All the so called developers considered competent, like Blizzard, SoE and the like, merely put out easy to consume products. Nothing wrong with that, as many people love gentle games with no risk. -CC
China... Come on.
You seem to be a pretty intelligent person, and I think you know darn well the point he made by highlighting those two specific statements in red. It's pretty obvious. I think you're being deliberately obtuse here.
But just in case...
His point, as I read it, is that if AV goes under, that hopefully a "competent developer" - as in, one that would do DF justice by getting it closer to what it was hyped to be - would pick it up, correct the glaring issues and turn it into the game everyone's waited for all these years, and make it work.
He's not referring to a developer who would pick it up and try to turn it into a themepark game with PvP by consent only, etc.
Now, xyzax can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm pretty certain that's what he meant.
Bingo!
As, my original post shows, the idea that:
Competent developers = large corporate souless gaming comapnies
DID NOT come from me... that is pure ChinaCat there.
Not sure why he wants to project the insecurities he has with Aventurine's incompetence onto someone else... but I'll leave that to him to explain.
I stand by my original analysis. The best thing that could happen to DarkFall is if Aventurine goes bankrupt, sells it, or some other scenario that delivers DarkFall into the hands of another developer who knows what they are doing.
In other words a developer who is competent.
You can say the sky is purple, but that doesn't make it true, just for you. AV is more than competent, but since you feel otherwise, instead of making us guess, how about you actually NAME the companies you think would do a better job with DFO?
I didn't think the questions below were unreasonable. Why are you avoiding answering them? I tried to figure it out on my own but find it impossible to do, since every past post of yours I click on of the close to 2,000 is about DFO.
"What games do you actually like? Perhaps that will give us insight on what you mean by a "competent developer". All the so called developers considered competent, like Blizzard, SoE and the like, merely put out easy to consume products. Nothing wrong with that, as many people love gentle games with no risk."
-CC
"Lately it occurs to me, what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
To be fair, certain other games make you collect 15 bear asses from bears with a drop rate of 10% to give to some NPC who sends you to the next NPC who wants you to collect 15 tiger asses with a drop rate of 5%, who then sends you to another NPC... all the way to level 80. In Darkfall you can level your skills by PVE, by PKing players, or by hiding in towns to macro if you are too afraid to do the first 2.
Rubbish! Name the game that has you collecting bear asses! Now Wolf Spit I could believe. And your humor was not lost on me, Samf.
"Making things up"? That's a pretty serious allegation. Your own words I quoted say it all. If you like to elaborate, please do. It would be fun to see your interpretation of.... "Aventurine going belly-up is probably the best thing that could happen to DarkFall. DarkFall might stand a chance of getting picked up by a competent developer, and realize at least a portion of it's potential."
What games do you actually like? Perhaps that will give us insight on what you mean by a "competent developer". All the so called developers considered competent, like Blizzard, SoE and the like, merely put out easy to consume products. Nothing wrong with that, as many people love gentle games with no risk. -CC
China... Come on.
You seem to be a pretty intelligent person, and I think you know darn well the point he made by highlighting those two specific statements in red. It's pretty obvious. I think you're being deliberately obtuse here.
But just in case...
His point, as I read it, is that if AV goes under, that hopefully a "competent developer" - as in, one that would do DF justice by getting it closer to what it was hyped to be - would pick it up, correct the glaring issues and turn it into the game everyone's waited for all these years, and make it work.
He's not referring to a developer who would pick it up and try to turn it into a themepark game with PvP by consent only, etc.
Now, xyzax can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm pretty certain that's what he meant.
Bingo!
As, my original post shows, the idea that:
Competent developers = large corporate souless gaming comapnies
DID NOT come from me... that is pure ChinaCat there.
Not sure why he wants to project the insecurities he has with Aventurine's incompetence onto someone else... but I'll leave that to him to explain.
I stand by my original analysis. The best thing that could happen to DarkFall is if Aventurine goes bankrupt, sells it, or some other scenario that delivers DarkFall into the hands of another developer who knows what they are doing.
In other words a developer who is competent.
You can say the sky is purple, but that doesn't make it true, just for you. AV is more than competent, but since you feel otherwise, instead of making us guess, how about you actually NAME the companies you think would do a better job with DFO?
I didn't think the questions below were unreasonable. Why are you avoiding answering them? I tried to figure it out on my own but find it impossible to do, since every past post of yours I click on of the close to 2,000 is about DFO.
"What games do you actually like? Perhaps that will give us insight on what you mean by a "competent developer". All the so called developers considered competent, like Blizzard, SoE and the like, merely put out easy to consume products. Nothing wrong with that, as many people love gentle games with no risk."
-CC
If you want to have a discussion that is off-topic to this thread, and most probably off-topic to this particular forum... go right ahead. I'll be talking about DarkFall though, and my particular thoughts on it.
For this particular thread the question was posed to be if we think DarkFall is still terrible. Remember?
I gave my opinion on the topic at hand, and it would seem that a good number of players both here and on the official boards agree with that opinion.
Remember, this is Forum is for ALL... not just those who feel Aventurine is a god-send.
Before you PVP seriously, get these skills up: Lesser Magic to 50 or 75, level 75 is for launch which launches you up in the air to get onto places and 50 is to unlock greater magic Greater Magic to 50 so you can unlock elemental spells Archery to 75 to get sharpshooter which increases archery damage A melee weapon to 75 to get melee mastery
These skills are the low end pvp skills, and you can now start pvp if you have a clan. They will not help you if you meet a high level player. It took me 5 months to get those skills as a casual gamer, and it is the main reason why so many left DF. Sure you can pvp as a noob if you have a group holding your hand, but you will be a non factor.
I didn't use a bloodwall or a macro. Two weeks ago when my elm magic was 45. I joined the darkside and started macroing. My magic went from 45 to 60 fast. So my advice is to join a guild with a bloodwall and macro your magic. It's expencive, but you will forget that when you get those splash damage spells. Now I'm collecting money for more of the skill burst evenings.
The only way the word competant and aventurine, go in the same sentence is if the word NOT is placed inbetween. This game has had every issue and drama of all MMO releases combined. Read the DF forums here for the past few months. Its painful reading and unlike DF forum nazis nothing has been deleted. Its beyond me how anyone can describe AV as a good company.
The only way the word competant and aventurine, go in the same sentence is if the word NOT is placed inbetween. This game has had every issue and drama of all MMO releases combined. Read the DF forums here for the past few months. Its painful reading and unlike DF forum nazis nothing has been deleted. Its beyond me how anyone can describe AV as a good company.
Heh, you won't find anyone describing them as a competent or good company outside of a very few loyal fans.
Oh well, I suppose if there are a few that are still singing Aventurine's praises it'll only hasten their demise... so in the end it's probably a good thing.
Remember the demise of Aventurine would most likely be a boon to DarkFall. I still think that DarkFall in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing could turn it around.
I think there is still hope for DarkFall... as soon as it is released from Aventurine's clutches.
First ChinaCat (WTF man), but to the topic; I agree with the majority on this one, DarkFall still has potential now every one has a bad taste in there mouth for the dev and you cant blam them for that (ok you can but shouldn't) some asked who would be better Blizzard? Hell no, they make a good product but DarkFall is way out side there realm comfort. CCP has done a good job with EVE imo, granted some would disagree but they are better than the current option and I feel could do it justice assuming they could apply the resources which I'm not sure they would. SOE is no single group; there are groups with in the family that is SOE that have the talent, experience, etc. but I agree they are not likely what DarkFall needs. Funcom or Failcom as so many of you like to call them has the skill; granted they mess things up as well but again they would be better and I think they could fair well in a sand box development environment, they sure such cant be worse at least they have resources. All in all its a moot point DarkFall is not living up to its designs potential imo and in the opinion of many others, it is a complex and very challenging design so you cant knock any one for trying but we have to call it as we see it, the game is not good as is, the game will not get better unless something major happens with the developer i.e. influx of talent, skill, resources, etc. or change to a developer with better/more talent, skill, resources, etc.
"Making things up"? That's a pretty serious allegation. Your own words I quoted say it all. If you like to elaborate, please do. It would be fun to see your interpretation of.... "Aventurine going belly-up is probably the best thing that could happen to DarkFall. DarkFall might stand a chance of getting picked up by a competent developer, and realize at least a portion of it's potential."
What games do you actually like? Perhaps that will give us insight on what you mean by a "competent developer". All the so called developers considered competent, like Blizzard, SoE and the like, merely put out easy to consume products. Nothing wrong with that, as many people love gentle games with no risk. -CC
China... Come on.
You seem to be a pretty intelligent person, and I think you know darn well the point he made by highlighting those two specific statements in red. It's pretty obvious. I think you're being deliberately obtuse here.
But just in case...
His point, as I read it, is that if AV goes under, that hopefully a "competent developer" - as in, one that would do DF justice by getting it closer to what it was hyped to be - would pick it up, correct the glaring issues and turn it into the game everyone's waited for all these years, and make it work.
He's not referring to a developer who would pick it up and try to turn it into a themepark game with PvP by consent only, etc.
Now, xyzax can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm pretty certain that's what he meant.
Bingo!
As, my original post shows, the idea that:
Competent developers = large corporate souless gaming comapnies
DID NOT come from me... that is pure ChinaCat there.
Not sure why he wants to project the insecurities he has with Aventurine's incompetence onto someone else... but I'll leave that to him to explain.
I stand by my original analysis. The best thing that could happen to DarkFall is if Aventurine goes bankrupt, sells it, or some other scenario that delivers DarkFall into the hands of another developer who knows what they are doing.
In other words a developer who is competent.
You can say the sky is purple, but that doesn't make it true, just for you. AV is more than competent, but since you feel otherwise, instead of making us guess, how about you actually NAME the companies you think would do a better job with DFO?
I didn't think the questions below were unreasonable. Why are you avoiding answering them? I tried to figure it out on my own but find it impossible to do, since every past post of yours I click on of the close to 2,000 is about DFO.
"What games do you actually like? Perhaps that will give us insight on what you mean by a "competent developer". All the so called developers considered competent, like Blizzard, SoE and the like, merely put out easy to consume products. Nothing wrong with that, as many people love gentle games with no risk."
-CC
If you want to have a discussion that is off-topic to this thread, and most probably off-topic to this particular forum... go right ahead. I'll be talking about DarkFall though, and my particular thoughts on it.
For this particular thread the question was posed to be if we think DarkFall is still terrible. Remember?
I gave my opinion on the topic at hand, and it would seem that a good number of players both here and on the official boards agree with that opinion.
Remember, this is Forum is for ALL... not just those who feel Aventurine is a god-send.
I can't even guess why it may be so uncomfortable for you to answer my questions, but they are certainly spot on topic, as you are suggesting DFO may do better in "more competent hands". I am asking you to tell us whose hands those may be so I can genuinely understand what you mean by "more competent". It couldn't be a more appropriate question, and the fact you are avoiding answering suggests you can dish it out, but are unable to back it up.
"I didn't think the questions below were unreasonable. Why are you avoiding answering them? I tried to figure it out on my own but find it impossible to do, since every past post of yours I click on of the close to 2,000 is about DFO.
"What games do you actually like? Perhaps that will give us insight on what you mean by a "competent developer". All the so called developers considered competent, like Blizzard, SoE and the like, merely put out easy to consume products. Nothing wrong with that, as many people love gentle games with no risk."
-CC
"Lately it occurs to me, what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
Just a point of curiosity, but why does the term "competent developer" need to be defined in the framework of currently well-known developers? Couldn't a competent developer be a (currently) unknown entity? For the sake of conversation, "competent developer" can merely be an abstract term for some developer, in business somewhere, with greater skills in developing/managing this sort of game.
That's how I've read it at least. xzyax can correct me if the intention was something different. As far as my two cents on your question regarding competent developers, I agree that CCP has been pretty good with their game and their customers. They've had a few fumbles, and don't get me wrong, every developer does, but it is how they handled them that has put them in generally good standing with many. I don't see DF as being of any interest to them with EvE, Dust514 in development, and WoD in development. But, that said, CCP at least represents the type of developer that I personally believe could take DF forward in a successful manner. I'll have to admit a level of bias though as I am an EvE fan.
Certainly, this is all just academic conversation though as I don't really see any indication, beyond speculation and such, that AV is on it's last legs or even willing to pass the game off to another dev. It's certainly something interesting to think about though.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Just a point of curiosity, but why does the term "competent developer" need to be defined in the framework of currently well-known developers? Couldn't a competent developer be a (currently) unknown entity? For the sake of conversation, "competent developer" can merely be an abstract term for some developer, in business somewhere, with greater skills in developing/managing this sort of game.
The short answer, to use an extreme as an example, is if you think Toon-Town is the best MMORPG to have ever been created and want its developers to take over DFO, that would allow one to understand the source of the remark, which "may" effect the level of credibility given to it. In the absence of this type of information when making such a remark, there is no context, which appears fine for some, but I'm answering your question why it's a reasonable question to ask.
Now to give you more context, please understand this remark is one of hundreds, actually almost several thousand, pot shots from the same person. Let's pretend a kid goes to school and some guy says to him each day, "you really need to find a better person to cut your hair, it looks terrible". To you, your hair may look totally cool. Now, wouldn't seeing how the person telling you this wore his hair help you to place the remark in better context? If he had a haircut you thought was really cool and wished yours was more like that, you may actually agree with him and ask who cuts his hair. Because I have no clue what this poster with close to 2,000 critical DFO posts in this forum actually considers a good game, or a competent developer, I genuinely am unable digest the comment. There is no context to place the remark against.
Let's say I went on any of the game boards on MMORPG and said the developer sucks, predicted failure for the game, and hoped a "competent" developer may pick it up. Aside from the obvious reaction, which btw the person making such a remark also can predict and appears like flame-bait to me, don't you think it reasonable for those fans to at least know what games that poster actually thinks are great, and what developers are better? That is hardly off topic, but what I consider a very appropriate question to ask of one making the remark.
The mere fact xzyax refuses to answer these questions is very telling for "me" Each person will draw their own conclusions. I have mine.
-CC
"Lately it occurs to me, what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
I think most of the major Developers did well with their last titles (with the exception of Funcom). Turbine, Mythic, NCsoft, Blizzard, CCP, all those are competent Devs, because whether you like their games or not, they managed to publish strong, profitable titles that have (or had) a good chunk of the MMO market.
Would DFO be better in their hands? One cannot say that for sure. I think Mythic and CCP, due to their game background, could do great things with the game, if they had the time and budget to do so.
I think most of the major Developers did well with their last titles (with the exception of Funcom). Turbine, Mythic, NCsoft, Blizzard, CCP, all those are competent Devs, because whether you like their games or not, they managed to publish strong, profitable titles that have (or had) a good chunk of the MMO market. Would DFO be better in their hands? One cannot say that for sure. I think Mythic and CCP, due to their game background, could do great things with the game, if they had the time and budget to do so.
Not one of those companies have the balls to make a game like DFO. They make games in a manner that is meant for mass consumption. For those who enjoy those games, that's terrific, but for those who enjoy a game like DFO, the past decade has been painful at best. Even simply requesting a PvP server for EQII resulted in deleted posts from the moderators and flames from those who don't like PvP. It eventually arrived and came very close to being excellent, and was a lot of fun for what it was, but failed to go the distance, at least for me and many others I am friends with. All these developers make PvE games, or at most you can say PvP games built around Realm vs Realm, which again, is great, if that's your thing and consequence of death is a mere trip back to your bind point.
It took an independent company to be fortunate enough to fund a dream and allow it to build a game that is outside the square. Some love it, some hate it, and some wonder around in-between, but to suggest they are not competent is pretty absurd given what AV has accomplished as a small independent company. MMO's are extremely complex games to code and given all the non static player driven content in DFO, it is quite remarkable what has been achieved and the distance it has gone from EU release to NA release.
Every single aspect of DFO has improved dramatically, and given each patch has been of substance and regular, my 7-months of playing the game give me zero reason to expect this trend to stop. The hacking sucks, but every game is subject to this and a PvP-Centric game even more so because of the competitive nature of it; none-the-less, any one playing knows how severely the hacking has been curtailed.
As big a fan as I am, of course I recognize where DFO can improve, but the general tone of this board is so far to the extreme of the genuine state of the game and AV's abilities that it makes it very difficult to have a reasonable discussion about this game with most of the daily DFO bashing hobbyist.
Heaven forbid DFO should ever fall in the hands of any of the companies you mentioned. First thing they would do is focus on numbers and water down the game for mass consumption destroying a great game, just like when UO went the way of Trammel. Fortunately for us fans, this ain't happening, as much as some appear to wish it to.
-CC
"Lately it occurs to me, what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
Not one of those companies have the balls to make a game like DFO. They make games in a manner that is meant for mass consumption. For those who enjoy those games, that's terrific, but for those who enjoy a game like DFO, the past decade has been painful at best. Even simply requesting a PvP server for EQII resulted in deleted posts from the moderators and flames from those who don't like PvP. It eventually arrived and came very close to being excellent, and was a lot of fun for what it was, but failed to go the distance, at least for me and many others I am friends with. All these developers make PvE games, or at most you can say PvP games built around Realm vs Realm, which again, is great, if that's your thing and consequence of death is a mere trip back to your bind point. It took an independent company to be fortunate enough to fund a dream and allow it to build a game that is outside the square. [..]
Everything up to this point I agree with. However AVs dream was not to make a PVP FFA sandbox MMO, AVs dream was to have a captured market which will so desperate for this playstyle they are happy to accept any level of quality, be left in the dark on development and finally double charged to change servers. Plus all the 'lesser' AV drama which again I implore people to flick back these forums to the proceeeding months. (Or perhaps we should list them all here... as a indicator of AVs professionalism )
The game would have struggled anyways because it is niche. However AV then decided to go alienate its entire player base by being either incompetant OR performing outright misdirection on costs etc; So being a smaller market MMO it went to a tiny market MMO.
As for the exetermism on here. I see nothing but what AV deserves. Kudos for being different (though there not the only PVP FFA MMO you know)... however its boo sucks for everything AV have pretty much ever done. AV stupidity is the most damaging thing for this particular sub genre right now. If Mortal' goes the same way (and I feel rumblings) its going to be another long decade. God job I play other genres and other hobbies eh ?
I dont think the size of your balls has anything to do with game developing. I would imagine its more to do with profit versus cost. I applaud any independent developer that tries to issue a product amongst the big boys in the school yard but when it comes to AV - they have underestimated the right way to market and sell their product for success.
The mere fact that their is such negative emotion pre and post release would suggest this game is not destined for anything other than small niche success and if the established houses such as NC Soft can get it wrong with games like Auto Assault, I dont have mouch hope that a vastly blemished reputation such as AV and Tasos has gained will do any better.
I also doubt that any reputable house would pick this license up now as it does not have an established IP or user base to really build on and drive big profits out. SOE have tried with Vanguard and no way would CCP ( an example of a small independant developer getting it right) do not need to pick up someone elses cast aways.
I think most of the major Developers did well with their last titles (with the exception of Funcom). Turbine, Mythic, NCsoft, Blizzard, CCP, all those are competent Devs, because whether you like their games or not, they managed to publish strong, profitable titles that have (or had) a good chunk of the MMO market. Would DFO be better in their hands? One cannot say that for sure. I think Mythic and CCP, due to their game background, could do great things with the game, if they had the time and budget to do so.
Not one of those companies have the balls to make a game like DFO. They make games in a manner that is meant for mass consumption. For those who enjoy those games, that's terrific, but for those who enjoy a game like DFO, the past decade has been painful at best. Even simply requesting a PvP server for EQII resulted in deleted posts from the moderators and flames from those who don't like PvP. It eventually arrived and came very close to being excellent, and was a lot of fun for what it was, but failed to go the distance, at least for me and many others I am friends with. All these developers make PvE games, or at most you can say PvP games built around Realm vs Realm, which again, is great, if that's your thing and consequence of death is a mere trip back to your bind point.
It took an independent company to be fortunate enough to fund a dream and allow it to build a game that is outside the square. Some love it, some hate it, and some wonder around in-between, but to suggest they are not competent is pretty absurd given what AV has accomplished as a small independent company. MMO's are extremely complex games to code and given all the non static player driven content in DFO, it is quite remarkable what has been achieved and the distance it has gone from EU release to NA release.
Every single aspect of DFO has improved dramatically, and given each patch has been of substance and regular, my 7-months of playing the game give me zero reason to expect this trend to stop. The hacking sucks, but every game is subject to this and a PvP-Centric game even more so because of the competitive nature of it; none-the-less, any one playing knows how severely the hacking has been curtailed.
As big a fan as I am, of course I recognize where DFO can improve, but the general tone of this board is so far to the extreme of the genuine state of the game and AV's abilities that it makes it very difficult to have a reasonable discussion about this game with most of the daily DFO bashing hobbyist.
Heaven forbid DFO should ever fall in the hands of any of the companies you mentioned. First thing they would do is focus on numbers and water down the game for mass consumption destroying a great game, just like when UO went the way of Trammel. Fortunately for us fans, this ain't happening, as much as some appear to wish it to.
-CC
I have to agree with you on your first sentence. Those companies "don't have the balls" to let low quality games be put out with their name on them. Like it or not, Darkfall is stagnating, no blind admiration for Av's good intentions are going to bring up the game quality & sub numbers. The best thing that could happen to Darkfall is if AV sold the rights to another developer......almost any developer would be more professional than AV.
Just a point of curiosity, but why does the term "competent developer" need to be defined in the framework of currently well-known developers? Couldn't a competent developer be a (currently) unknown entity? For the sake of conversation, "competent developer" can merely be an abstract term for some developer, in business somewhere, with greater skills in developing/managing this sort of game. That's how I've read it at least. xzyax can correct me if the intention was something different. As far as my two cents on your question regarding competent developers, I agree that CCP has been pretty good with their game and their customers. They've had a few fumbles, and don't get me wrong, every developer does, but it is how they handled them that has put them in generally good standing with many. I don't see DF as being of any interest to them with EvE, Dust514 in development, and WoD in development. But, that said, CCP at least represents the type of developer that I personally believe could take DF forward in a successful manner. I'll have to admit a level of bias though as I am an EvE fan. Certainly, this is all just academic conversation though as I don't really see any indication, beyond speculation and such, that AV is on it's last legs or even willing to pass the game off to another dev. It's certainly something interesting to think about though.
Yeah you're on the right track there.
Don't be fooled by CC's constant harping on off-topic issues. He'll do anything to get the discussion off of how badly that Aventurine is currently managing DarkFall and the harm that they are doing to the game and it's playerbase.
This thread is about our opinion of how terrible DarkFall is or is not in the hands of Aventurine.
I happen to think that Aventurine is doing a terrible job with DarkFall, and the game could be improved if it was in the hands of someome who was more capable. Other's may disagree with that opinion... which is fine.
What some with a bit of forum savy try to do is turn the thread discussions into some off-topic rant about other companies or other games that people play. They do that to deflect the criticism that Aventurine rightly deserves.
Don't forget this forum is about DarkFall, and it's available for all; no matter what their opinion. Seems pretty simple.
The short answer, to use an extreme as an example, is if you think Toon-Town is the best MMORPG to have ever been created and want its developers to take over DFO, that would allow one to understand the source of the remark, which "may" effect the level of credibility given to it. In the absence of this type of information when making such a remark, there is no context, which appears fine for some, but I'm answering your question why it's a reasonable question to ask. Now to give you more context, please understand this remark is one of hundreds, actually almost several thousand, pot shots from the same person. Let's pretend a kid goes to school and some guy says to him each day, "you really need to find a better person to cut your hair, it looks terrible". To you, your hair may look totally cool. Now, wouldn't seeing how the person telling you this wore his hair help you to place the remark in better context? If he had a haircut you thought was really cool and wished yours was more like that, you may actually agree with him and ask who cuts his hair. Because I have no clue what this poster with close to 2,000 critical DFO posts in this forum actually considers a good game, or a competent developer, I genuinely am unable digest the comment. There is no context to place the remark against.
Being one of several thousand "pot shots" by the same person, of whom you have reviewed their posting history, wouldn't you have a general idea that they would not recommend the devs of Toon-Town (to use the extreme)? I mean, I haven't gone through xzyax's posting history, but I have been able to deduce, from the threads I have read, that he is not looking to turn the game into a "Carebear", "Themepark", or some sort of hug-fest.
Ultimately, some people believe the game is failing and that another dev (not necessarily a currently well known one) could improve it and be successful. I believe, to one extent or another, people have posted their thoughts as to why they believe the game is failing and this is something that could be addressed in a lot more concrete manner then who a "competent dev" might be.
Additionally, I thought StrixMaxima had a pretty good response, but I disagree with the idea that none of the devs he listed would have the balls to make a game like DF. I think of the list, CCP would certainly be well equipped and, perhaps WoD would be a good illustration. Maybe NCSoft as well, but my experience with them is limited and I am just basing that idea off of the Lineage II. On a side note though, SOE certainly has experience taking of development (and destruction?) of games.
This illustrates the problem with trying to project an existing game onto another dev though. It becomes easy to get caught up in the "they wouldn't do this" or "they wouldn't do that" rather then addressing the core question of "how is AV incompetent" which would like be a much more interesting conversation (flames aside) as it contains facts/opinions based on things that exist and not hypotheticals.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Being one of several thousand "pot shots" by the same person, of whom you have reviewed their posting history, wouldn't you have a general idea that they would not recommend the devs of Toon-Town (to use the extreme)? I mean, I haven't gone through xzyax's posting history, but I have been able to deduce, from the threads I have read, that he is not looking to turn the game into a "Carebear", "Themepark", or some sort of hug-fest.
I have no idea. I certainly haven't and won't read every post of his, but a random look produces a 100% result that all his close to 2,000 posts are on the DFO forum telling us how it and its developer fail. I have absolutely no idea what this player considers a fun game, or a good company. I can easily make certain assumptions that are obvious to me, but they are not similar to those you have listed.
In my many years of gaming, I've never seen any one resist sharing what games they actually like whilst discussing games on a message board. The fact he won't answer and uses "off topic", as an excuse, leaves me to realize responding to him any further is not worth my time. I can only hope other readers can see through this drama.
-CC
"Lately it occurs to me, what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
I think most of the major Developers did well with their last titles (with the exception of Funcom). Turbine, Mythic, NCsoft, Blizzard, CCP, all those are competent Devs, because whether you like their games or not, they managed to publish strong, profitable titles that have (or had) a good chunk of the MMO market. Would DFO be better in their hands? One cannot say that for sure. I think Mythic and CCP, due to their game background, could do great things with the game, if they had the time and budget to do so.
Not one of those companies have the balls to make a game like DFO. They make games in a manner that is meant for mass consumption. For those who enjoy those games, that's terrific, but for those who enjoy a game like DFO, the past decade has been painful at best. Even simply requesting a PvP server for EQII resulted in deleted posts from the moderators and flames from those who don't like PvP. It eventually arrived and came very close to being excellent, and was a lot of fun for what it was, but failed to go the distance, at least for me and many others I am friends with. All these developers make PvE games, or at most you can say PvP games built around Realm vs Realm, which again, is great, if that's your thing and consequence of death is a mere trip back to your bind point.
It took an independent company to be fortunate enough to fund a dream and allow it to build a game that is outside the square. Some love it, some hate it, and some wonder around in-between, but to suggest they are not competent is pretty absurd given what AV has accomplished as a small independent company. MMO's are extremely complex games to code and given all the non static player driven content in DFO, it is quite remarkable what has been achieved and the distance it has gone from EU release to NA release.
Every single aspect of DFO has improved dramatically, and given each patch has been of substance and regular, my 7-months of playing the game give me zero reason to expect this trend to stop. The hacking sucks, but every game is subject to this and a PvP-Centric game even more so because of the competitive nature of it; none-the-less, any one playing knows how severely the hacking has been curtailed.
As big a fan as I am, of course I recognize where DFO can improve, but the general tone of this board is so far to the extreme of the genuine state of the game and AV's abilities that it makes it very difficult to have a reasonable discussion about this game with most of the daily DFO bashing hobbyist.
Heaven forbid DFO should ever fall in the hands of any of the companies you mentioned. First thing they would do is focus on numbers and water down the game for mass consumption destroying a great game, just like when UO went the way of Trammel. Fortunately for us fans, this ain't happening, as much as some appear to wish it to.
-CC
It's all well and good, but you must remember one thing: Developers make the game we (the royal "we", as would Big Lebowski say) want to play. You talk about watered down games and stuff, but you cannot ignore that all companies go for demographics: they want the largest consumer base possible. Is this wrong? I don't think so.
The result of that is the predominance of PVE games, where lots of people play solo, chat a bit, read crap on Global and eventually team for harder content. If the royal "we" demanded for another kind of game, a gritty, down-and-dirty PvP battle royale, do you have any doubts we would have several games like that? Companies follow money. Money, in present day market, is at PvE. I don't like it, you may not like it, but that's how the cookie crumbles.
And here's AV's original sin: not to take their game and their niche playerbase seriously. They sold us one thing, and delivered another. This is a simple, known fact, that it's indisputable. Their word is printed. Thus, we have this biblical exodus from DFO. They have undermined the very genre they wanted to work with. And that's, for me, borderline psychotic.
The game changed a bit with patches, no one will deny that. However, the damage is done. How can someone who believed the hype and the spin check the site, read about changes, and believe them? The numbers speak for themselves.
There is a reason big Devs don't invest more on PvP: money. Smaller devs might be willing to take a shot at the genre. But if games like DFO hit the market, how can this trend ever change? Players want quality, that's all.
I think most of the major Developers did well with their last titles (with the exception of Funcom). Turbine, Mythic, NCsoft, Blizzard, CCP, all those are competent Devs, because whether you like their games or not, they managed to publish strong, profitable titles that have (or had) a good chunk of the MMO market. Would DFO be better in their hands? One cannot say that for sure. I think Mythic and CCP, due to their game background, could do great things with the game, if they had the time and budget to do so.
Not one of those companies have the balls to make a game like DFO. They make games in a manner that is meant for mass consumption. For those who enjoy those games, that's terrific, but for those who enjoy a game like DFO, the past decade has been painful at best. Even simply requesting a PvP server for EQII resulted in deleted posts from the moderators and flames from those who don't like PvP. It eventually arrived and came very close to being excellent, and was a lot of fun for what it was, but failed to go the distance, at least for me and many others I am friends with. All these developers make PvE games, or at most you can say PvP games built around Realm vs Realm, which again, is great, if that's your thing and consequence of death is a mere trip back to your bind point.
It took an independent company to be fortunate enough to fund a dream and allow it to build a game that is outside the square. Some love it, some hate it, and some wonder around in-between, but to suggest they are not competent is pretty absurd given what AV has accomplished as a small independent company. MMO's are extremely complex games to code and given all the non static player driven content in DFO, it is quite remarkable what has been achieved and the distance it has gone from EU release to NA release.
Every single aspect of DFO has improved dramatically, and given each patch has been of substance and regular, my 7-months of playing the game give me zero reason to expect this trend to stop. The hacking sucks, but every game is subject to this and a PvP-Centric game even more so because of the competitive nature of it; none-the-less, any one playing knows how severely the hacking has been curtailed.
As big a fan as I am, of course I recognize where DFO can improve, but the general tone of this board is so far to the extreme of the genuine state of the game and AV's abilities that it makes it very difficult to have a reasonable discussion about this game with most of the daily DFO bashing hobbyist.
Heaven forbid DFO should ever fall in the hands of any of the companies you mentioned. First thing they would do is focus on numbers and water down the game for mass consumption destroying a great game, just like when UO went the way of Trammel. Fortunately for us fans, this ain't happening, as much as some appear to wish it to.
-CC
It's all well and good, but you must remember one thing: Developers make the game we (the royal "we", as would Big Lebowski say) want to play. You talk about watered down games and stuff, but you cannot ignore that all companies go for demographics: they want the largest consumer base possible. Is this wrong? I don't think so.
The result of that is the predominance of PVE games, where lots of people play solo, chat a bit, read crap on Global and eventually team for harder content. If the royal "we" demanded for another kind of game, a gritty, down-and-dirty PvP battle royale, do you have any doubts we would have several games like that? Companies follow money. Money, in present day market, is at PvE. I don't like it, you may not like it, but that's how the cookie crumbles.
And here's AV's original sin: not to take their game and their niche playerbase seriously. They sold us one thing, and delivered another. This is a simple, known fact, that it's indisputable. Their word is printed. Thus, we have this biblical exodus from DFO. They have undermined the very genre they wanted to work with. And that's, for me, borderline psychotic.
The game changed a bit with patches, no one will deny that. However, the damage is done. How can someone who believed the hype and the spin check the site, read about changes, and believe them? The numbers speak for themselves.
There is a reason big Devs don't invest more on PvP: money. Smaller devs might be willing to take a shot at the genre. But if games like DFO hit the market, how can this trend ever change? Players want quality, that's all.
Apparently CC doesn't understand that games with large sub base is a big success. To him, its the "evil" "cookie cutter game" as put it. He doesn't get that DFo itself IS a cookie cutter game with absolutely nothing new. Everything that DFo has, has been done by some other game. As a matter of fact, no recent game has "unique" feel to it because some or all of those features have been done before.
DFO tries to be cookie cutter, but fails miserably because of the incompetence of AV. First of all, they tried to fit DFO into a severely limited niche market (full loot open PvP), but they screw up with tons of bugs and bad servers. That severely limited niche market just became severely severely niche. Still, even with all the severity, there are people that like that game. And thats fine. However, what is NOT fine is that some of those people are so narrow minded that they do not see anything beyond their own little game - any other game that is even slightly more succefull becomes "cookie cutter brainless spawn of wow clones".
CC - you can claim all the grandure you want, the fact remains - very few people play your game. Which means it SUX. End of story.
In my many years of gaming, I've never seen any one resist sharing what games they actually like whilst discussing games on a message board.
Another point of curiosity; what would that information do for you? I ask because there have been threads on this forum as to what other games people like and they always devolve into "DF is better then your game!" as well as all the associated arguments around that.
Thing is, video games, or to be more specific even, MMOs, are not opposing sports teams. You can like Themepark-A and FFAPvP-B at the same time. Would finding out that someone you disagree with plays WoW really matter? Personally, I have had EvE and WoW accounts active. I've had Pre-CU SWG and FFXI accounts as well. I like MMOs and I can't think I am the only one who can approach the games in this light.
I suppose the other assumption is that a person you are speaking to is actually playing a game atm. Either way, I can respect someone's decision to not post this information given the fact that, historically, doing so just leads to an argument about some game other then DF.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
... Either way, I can respect someone's decision to not post this information given the fact that, historically, doing so just leads to an argument about some game other then DF.
Bingo!
I've been around on this forum long enough to know when someone is being genuine with their curiosity and when they are just fishing for the next straw-man arguement.
Especially since the mods here have made it abundantly clear that they would like all of us to stay on topic to the forum and it's threads.
Darkfall is the type of game where the players keep switching to the newest servers in the hope to be succesfull there (being the top/leet players everyone in that server knows about), ofcourse only a tiny fraction actually succeed in that and the rest leaves altogether waiting till they open a new server. Result: only the newest server has a high population when its just opened, the rest are ghosttowns. The European server thrived for a few weeks and slowly died, the game saw on overall increase of subs when the american server was released but after the initial rush that server is also bleeding, slowly losing players with only a few vets/gankers/hackers/macroers (and so on) left.
Ofcourse with only 2 servers you may find my reasoning absurb, but it WILL happen. They WILL open another server and see a subscriber increase for a few weeks at best, then the game bleeds to death till they open another. Mark my words :P
MMOs currently playing: - About to play: Lord of the Rings Online Played: Anarchy Online (alltime favorite) and lots of f2p titles (honorable mentions: 9Dragons, Martial Heroes, Dekaron, Atlantica Online)
Comments
China... Come on.
You seem to be a pretty intelligent person, and I think you know darn well the point he made by highlighting those two specific statements in red. It's pretty obvious. I think you're being deliberately obtuse here.
But just in case...
His point, as I read it, is that if AV goes under, that hopefully a "competent developer" - as in, one that would do DF justice by getting it closer to what it was hyped to be - would pick it up, correct the glaring issues and turn it into the game everyone's waited for all these years, and make it work.
He's not referring to a developer who would pick it up and try to turn it into a themepark game with PvP by consent only, etc.
Now, xyzax can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm pretty certain that's what he meant.
Bingo!
As, my original post shows, the idea that:
Competent developers = large corporate souless gaming comapnies
DID NOT come from me... that is pure ChinaCat there.
Not sure why he wants to project the insecurities he has with Aventurine's incompetence onto someone else... but I'll leave that to him to explain.
I stand by my original analysis. The best thing that could happen to DarkFall is if Aventurine goes bankrupt, sells it, or some other scenario that delivers DarkFall into the hands of another developer who knows what they are doing.
In other words a developer who is competent.
China... Come on.
You seem to be a pretty intelligent person, and I think you know darn well the point he made by highlighting those two specific statements in red. It's pretty obvious. I think you're being deliberately obtuse here.
But just in case...
His point, as I read it, is that if AV goes under, that hopefully a "competent developer" - as in, one that would do DF justice by getting it closer to what it was hyped to be - would pick it up, correct the glaring issues and turn it into the game everyone's waited for all these years, and make it work.
He's not referring to a developer who would pick it up and try to turn it into a themepark game with PvP by consent only, etc.
Now, xyzax can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm pretty certain that's what he meant.
Bingo!
As, my original post shows, the idea that:
Competent developers = large corporate souless gaming comapnies
DID NOT come from me... that is pure ChinaCat there.
Not sure why he wants to project the insecurities he has with Aventurine's incompetence onto someone else... but I'll leave that to him to explain.
I stand by my original analysis. The best thing that could happen to DarkFall is if Aventurine goes bankrupt, sells it, or some other scenario that delivers DarkFall into the hands of another developer who knows what they are doing.
In other words a developer who is competent.
You can say the sky is purple, but that doesn't make it true, just for you. AV is more than competent, but since you feel otherwise, instead of making us guess, how about you actually NAME the companies you think would do a better job with DFO?
I didn't think the questions below were unreasonable. Why are you avoiding answering them? I tried to figure it out on my own but find it impossible to do, since every past post of yours I click on of the close to 2,000 is about DFO.
"What games do you actually like? Perhaps that will give us insight on what you mean by a "competent developer". All the so called developers considered competent, like Blizzard, SoE and the like, merely put out easy to consume products. Nothing wrong with that, as many people love gentle games with no risk."
-CC
"Lately it occurs to me,
what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
Rubbish! Name the game that has you collecting bear asses! Now Wolf Spit I could believe. And your humor was not lost on me, Samf.
China... Come on.
You seem to be a pretty intelligent person, and I think you know darn well the point he made by highlighting those two specific statements in red. It's pretty obvious. I think you're being deliberately obtuse here.
But just in case...
His point, as I read it, is that if AV goes under, that hopefully a "competent developer" - as in, one that would do DF justice by getting it closer to what it was hyped to be - would pick it up, correct the glaring issues and turn it into the game everyone's waited for all these years, and make it work.
He's not referring to a developer who would pick it up and try to turn it into a themepark game with PvP by consent only, etc.
Now, xyzax can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm pretty certain that's what he meant.
Bingo!
As, my original post shows, the idea that:
Competent developers = large corporate souless gaming comapnies
DID NOT come from me... that is pure ChinaCat there.
Not sure why he wants to project the insecurities he has with Aventurine's incompetence onto someone else... but I'll leave that to him to explain.
I stand by my original analysis. The best thing that could happen to DarkFall is if Aventurine goes bankrupt, sells it, or some other scenario that delivers DarkFall into the hands of another developer who knows what they are doing.
In other words a developer who is competent.
You can say the sky is purple, but that doesn't make it true, just for you. AV is more than competent, but since you feel otherwise, instead of making us guess, how about you actually NAME the companies you think would do a better job with DFO?
I didn't think the questions below were unreasonable. Why are you avoiding answering them? I tried to figure it out on my own but find it impossible to do, since every past post of yours I click on of the close to 2,000 is about DFO.
"What games do you actually like? Perhaps that will give us insight on what you mean by a "competent developer". All the so called developers considered competent, like Blizzard, SoE and the like, merely put out easy to consume products. Nothing wrong with that, as many people love gentle games with no risk."
-CC
If you want to have a discussion that is off-topic to this thread, and most probably off-topic to this particular forum... go right ahead. I'll be talking about DarkFall though, and my particular thoughts on it.
For this particular thread the question was posed to be if we think DarkFall is still terrible. Remember?
I gave my opinion on the topic at hand, and it would seem that a good number of players both here and on the official boards agree with that opinion.
Remember, this is Forum is for ALL... not just those who feel Aventurine is a god-send.
These skills are the low end pvp skills, and you can now start pvp if you have a clan. They will not help you if you meet a high level player. It took me 5 months to get those skills as a casual gamer, and it is the main reason why so many left DF. Sure you can pvp as a noob if you have a group holding your hand, but you will be a non factor.
I didn't use a bloodwall or a macro. Two weeks ago when my elm magic was 45. I joined the darkside and started macroing. My magic went from 45 to 60 fast. So my advice is to join a guild with a bloodwall and macro your magic. It's expencive, but you will forget that when you get those splash damage spells. Now I'm collecting money for more of the skill burst evenings.
The only way the word competant and aventurine, go in the same sentence is if the word NOT is placed inbetween. This game has had every issue and drama of all MMO releases combined. Read the DF forums here for the past few months. Its painful reading and unlike DF forum nazis nothing has been deleted. Its beyond me how anyone can describe AV as a good company.
Heh, you won't find anyone describing them as a competent or good company outside of a very few loyal fans.
Oh well, I suppose if there are a few that are still singing Aventurine's praises it'll only hasten their demise... so in the end it's probably a good thing.
Remember the demise of Aventurine would most likely be a boon to DarkFall. I still think that DarkFall in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing could turn it around.
I think there is still hope for DarkFall... as soon as it is released from Aventurine's clutches.
First ChinaCat (WTF man), but to the topic; I agree with the majority on this one, DarkFall still has potential now every one has a bad taste in there mouth for the dev and you cant blam them for that (ok you can but shouldn't) some asked who would be better Blizzard? Hell no, they make a good product but DarkFall is way out side there realm comfort. CCP has done a good job with EVE imo, granted some would disagree but they are better than the current option and I feel could do it justice assuming they could apply the resources which I'm not sure they would. SOE is no single group; there are groups with in the family that is SOE that have the talent, experience, etc. but I agree they are not likely what DarkFall needs. Funcom or Failcom as so many of you like to call them has the skill; granted they mess things up as well but again they would be better and I think they could fair well in a sand box development environment, they sure such cant be worse at least they have resources. All in all its a moot point DarkFall is not living up to its designs potential imo and in the opinion of many others, it is a complex and very challenging design so you cant knock any one for trying but we have to call it as we see it, the game is not good as is, the game will not get better unless something major happens with the developer i.e. influx of talent, skill, resources, etc. or change to a developer with better/more talent, skill, resources, etc.
China... Come on.
You seem to be a pretty intelligent person, and I think you know darn well the point he made by highlighting those two specific statements in red. It's pretty obvious. I think you're being deliberately obtuse here.
But just in case...
His point, as I read it, is that if AV goes under, that hopefully a "competent developer" - as in, one that would do DF justice by getting it closer to what it was hyped to be - would pick it up, correct the glaring issues and turn it into the game everyone's waited for all these years, and make it work.
He's not referring to a developer who would pick it up and try to turn it into a themepark game with PvP by consent only, etc.
Now, xyzax can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm pretty certain that's what he meant.
Bingo!
As, my original post shows, the idea that:
Competent developers = large corporate souless gaming comapnies
DID NOT come from me... that is pure ChinaCat there.
Not sure why he wants to project the insecurities he has with Aventurine's incompetence onto someone else... but I'll leave that to him to explain.
I stand by my original analysis. The best thing that could happen to DarkFall is if Aventurine goes bankrupt, sells it, or some other scenario that delivers DarkFall into the hands of another developer who knows what they are doing.
In other words a developer who is competent.
You can say the sky is purple, but that doesn't make it true, just for you. AV is more than competent, but since you feel otherwise, instead of making us guess, how about you actually NAME the companies you think would do a better job with DFO?
I didn't think the questions below were unreasonable. Why are you avoiding answering them? I tried to figure it out on my own but find it impossible to do, since every past post of yours I click on of the close to 2,000 is about DFO.
"What games do you actually like? Perhaps that will give us insight on what you mean by a "competent developer". All the so called developers considered competent, like Blizzard, SoE and the like, merely put out easy to consume products. Nothing wrong with that, as many people love gentle games with no risk."
-CC
If you want to have a discussion that is off-topic to this thread, and most probably off-topic to this particular forum... go right ahead. I'll be talking about DarkFall though, and my particular thoughts on it.
For this particular thread the question was posed to be if we think DarkFall is still terrible. Remember?
I gave my opinion on the topic at hand, and it would seem that a good number of players both here and on the official boards agree with that opinion.
Remember, this is Forum is for ALL... not just those who feel Aventurine is a god-send.
I can't even guess why it may be so uncomfortable for you to answer my questions, but they are certainly spot on topic, as you are suggesting DFO may do better in "more competent hands". I am asking you to tell us whose hands those may be so I can genuinely understand what you mean by "more competent". It couldn't be a more appropriate question, and the fact you are avoiding answering suggests you can dish it out, but are unable to back it up.
"I didn't think the questions below were unreasonable. Why are you avoiding answering them? I tried to figure it out on my own but find it impossible to do, since every past post of yours I click on of the close to 2,000 is about DFO.
"What games do you actually like? Perhaps that will give us insight on what you mean by a "competent developer". All the so called developers considered competent, like Blizzard, SoE and the like, merely put out easy to consume products. Nothing wrong with that, as many people love gentle games with no risk."
-CC
"Lately it occurs to me,
what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
Just a point of curiosity, but why does the term "competent developer" need to be defined in the framework of currently well-known developers? Couldn't a competent developer be a (currently) unknown entity? For the sake of conversation, "competent developer" can merely be an abstract term for some developer, in business somewhere, with greater skills in developing/managing this sort of game.
That's how I've read it at least. xzyax can correct me if the intention was something different. As far as my two cents on your question regarding competent developers, I agree that CCP has been pretty good with their game and their customers. They've had a few fumbles, and don't get me wrong, every developer does, but it is how they handled them that has put them in generally good standing with many. I don't see DF as being of any interest to them with EvE, Dust514 in development, and WoD in development. But, that said, CCP at least represents the type of developer that I personally believe could take DF forward in a successful manner. I'll have to admit a level of bias though as I am an EvE fan.
Certainly, this is all just academic conversation though as I don't really see any indication, beyond speculation and such, that AV is on it's last legs or even willing to pass the game off to another dev. It's certainly something interesting to think about though.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
The short answer, to use an extreme as an example, is if you think Toon-Town is the best MMORPG to have ever been created and want its developers to take over DFO, that would allow one to understand the source of the remark, which "may" effect the level of credibility given to it. In the absence of this type of information when making such a remark, there is no context, which appears fine for some, but I'm answering your question why it's a reasonable question to ask.
Now to give you more context, please understand this remark is one of hundreds, actually almost several thousand, pot shots from the same person. Let's pretend a kid goes to school and some guy says to him each day, "you really need to find a better person to cut your hair, it looks terrible". To you, your hair may look totally cool. Now, wouldn't seeing how the person telling you this wore his hair help you to place the remark in better context? If he had a haircut you thought was really cool and wished yours was more like that, you may actually agree with him and ask who cuts his hair. Because I have no clue what this poster with close to 2,000 critical DFO posts in this forum actually considers a good game, or a competent developer, I genuinely am unable digest the comment. There is no context to place the remark against.
Let's say I went on any of the game boards on MMORPG and said the developer sucks, predicted failure for the game, and hoped a "competent" developer may pick it up. Aside from the obvious reaction, which btw the person making such a remark also can predict and appears like flame-bait to me, don't you think it reasonable for those fans to at least know what games that poster actually thinks are great, and what developers are better? That is hardly off topic, but what I consider a very appropriate question to ask of one making the remark.
The mere fact xzyax refuses to answer these questions is very telling for "me" Each person will draw their own conclusions. I have mine.
-CC
"Lately it occurs to me,
what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
As to get on the main question, "This game still terrible?"
I would have to say this picture explains it.
I think most of the major Developers did well with their last titles (with the exception of Funcom). Turbine, Mythic, NCsoft, Blizzard, CCP, all those are competent Devs, because whether you like their games or not, they managed to publish strong, profitable titles that have (or had) a good chunk of the MMO market.
Would DFO be better in their hands? One cannot say that for sure. I think Mythic and CCP, due to their game background, could do great things with the game, if they had the time and budget to do so.
Not one of those companies have the balls to make a game like DFO. They make games in a manner that is meant for mass consumption. For those who enjoy those games, that's terrific, but for those who enjoy a game like DFO, the past decade has been painful at best. Even simply requesting a PvP server for EQII resulted in deleted posts from the moderators and flames from those who don't like PvP. It eventually arrived and came very close to being excellent, and was a lot of fun for what it was, but failed to go the distance, at least for me and many others I am friends with. All these developers make PvE games, or at most you can say PvP games built around Realm vs Realm, which again, is great, if that's your thing and consequence of death is a mere trip back to your bind point.
It took an independent company to be fortunate enough to fund a dream and allow it to build a game that is outside the square. Some love it, some hate it, and some wonder around in-between, but to suggest they are not competent is pretty absurd given what AV has accomplished as a small independent company. MMO's are extremely complex games to code and given all the non static player driven content in DFO, it is quite remarkable what has been achieved and the distance it has gone from EU release to NA release.
Every single aspect of DFO has improved dramatically, and given each patch has been of substance and regular, my 7-months of playing the game give me zero reason to expect this trend to stop. The hacking sucks, but every game is subject to this and a PvP-Centric game even more so because of the competitive nature of it; none-the-less, any one playing knows how severely the hacking has been curtailed.
As big a fan as I am, of course I recognize where DFO can improve, but the general tone of this board is so far to the extreme of the genuine state of the game and AV's abilities that it makes it very difficult to have a reasonable discussion about this game with most of the daily DFO bashing hobbyist.
Heaven forbid DFO should ever fall in the hands of any of the companies you mentioned. First thing they would do is focus on numbers and water down the game for mass consumption destroying a great game, just like when UO went the way of Trammel. Fortunately for us fans, this ain't happening, as much as some appear to wish it to.
-CC
"Lately it occurs to me,
what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
Everything up to this point I agree with. However AVs dream was not to make a PVP FFA sandbox MMO, AVs dream was to have a captured market which will so desperate for this playstyle they are happy to accept any level of quality, be left in the dark on development and finally double charged to change servers. Plus all the 'lesser' AV drama which again I implore people to flick back these forums to the proceeeding months. (Or perhaps we should list them all here... as a indicator of AVs professionalism )
The game would have struggled anyways because it is niche. However AV then decided to go alienate its entire player base by being either incompetant OR performing outright misdirection on costs etc; So being a smaller market MMO it went to a tiny market MMO.
As for the exetermism on here. I see nothing but what AV deserves. Kudos for being different (though there not the only PVP FFA MMO you know)... however its boo sucks for everything AV have pretty much ever done. AV stupidity is the most damaging thing for this particular sub genre right now. If Mortal' goes the same way (and I feel rumblings) its going to be another long decade. God job I play other genres and other hobbies eh ?
"Not one of them has the balls"?
I dont think the size of your balls has anything to do with game developing. I would imagine its more to do with profit versus cost. I applaud any independent developer that tries to issue a product amongst the big boys in the school yard but when it comes to AV - they have underestimated the right way to market and sell their product for success.
The mere fact that their is such negative emotion pre and post release would suggest this game is not destined for anything other than small niche success and if the established houses such as NC Soft can get it wrong with games like Auto Assault, I dont have mouch hope that a vastly blemished reputation such as AV and Tasos has gained will do any better.
I also doubt that any reputable house would pick this license up now as it does not have an established IP or user base to really build on and drive big profits out. SOE have tried with Vanguard and no way would CCP ( an example of a small independant developer getting it right) do not need to pick up someone elses cast aways.
Plenty more games in the sea though.
To err is human....to play is divine
Not one of those companies have the balls to make a game like DFO. They make games in a manner that is meant for mass consumption. For those who enjoy those games, that's terrific, but for those who enjoy a game like DFO, the past decade has been painful at best. Even simply requesting a PvP server for EQII resulted in deleted posts from the moderators and flames from those who don't like PvP. It eventually arrived and came very close to being excellent, and was a lot of fun for what it was, but failed to go the distance, at least for me and many others I am friends with. All these developers make PvE games, or at most you can say PvP games built around Realm vs Realm, which again, is great, if that's your thing and consequence of death is a mere trip back to your bind point.
It took an independent company to be fortunate enough to fund a dream and allow it to build a game that is outside the square. Some love it, some hate it, and some wonder around in-between, but to suggest they are not competent is pretty absurd given what AV has accomplished as a small independent company. MMO's are extremely complex games to code and given all the non static player driven content in DFO, it is quite remarkable what has been achieved and the distance it has gone from EU release to NA release.
Every single aspect of DFO has improved dramatically, and given each patch has been of substance and regular, my 7-months of playing the game give me zero reason to expect this trend to stop. The hacking sucks, but every game is subject to this and a PvP-Centric game even more so because of the competitive nature of it; none-the-less, any one playing knows how severely the hacking has been curtailed.
As big a fan as I am, of course I recognize where DFO can improve, but the general tone of this board is so far to the extreme of the genuine state of the game and AV's abilities that it makes it very difficult to have a reasonable discussion about this game with most of the daily DFO bashing hobbyist.
Heaven forbid DFO should ever fall in the hands of any of the companies you mentioned. First thing they would do is focus on numbers and water down the game for mass consumption destroying a great game, just like when UO went the way of Trammel. Fortunately for us fans, this ain't happening, as much as some appear to wish it to.
-CC
I have to agree with you on your first sentence. Those companies "don't have the balls" to let low quality games be put out with their name on them. Like it or not, Darkfall is stagnating, no blind admiration for Av's good intentions are going to bring up the game quality & sub numbers. The best thing that could happen to Darkfall is if AV sold the rights to another developer......almost any developer would be more professional than AV.
Yeah you're on the right track there.
Don't be fooled by CC's constant harping on off-topic issues. He'll do anything to get the discussion off of how badly that Aventurine is currently managing DarkFall and the harm that they are doing to the game and it's playerbase.
This thread is about our opinion of how terrible DarkFall is or is not in the hands of Aventurine.
I happen to think that Aventurine is doing a terrible job with DarkFall, and the game could be improved if it was in the hands of someome who was more capable. Other's may disagree with that opinion... which is fine.
What some with a bit of forum savy try to do is turn the thread discussions into some off-topic rant about other companies or other games that people play. They do that to deflect the criticism that Aventurine rightly deserves.
Don't forget this forum is about DarkFall, and it's available for all; no matter what their opinion. Seems pretty simple.
Being one of several thousand "pot shots" by the same person, of whom you have reviewed their posting history, wouldn't you have a general idea that they would not recommend the devs of Toon-Town (to use the extreme)? I mean, I haven't gone through xzyax's posting history, but I have been able to deduce, from the threads I have read, that he is not looking to turn the game into a "Carebear", "Themepark", or some sort of hug-fest.
Ultimately, some people believe the game is failing and that another dev (not necessarily a currently well known one) could improve it and be successful. I believe, to one extent or another, people have posted their thoughts as to why they believe the game is failing and this is something that could be addressed in a lot more concrete manner then who a "competent dev" might be.
Additionally, I thought StrixMaxima had a pretty good response, but I disagree with the idea that none of the devs he listed would have the balls to make a game like DF. I think of the list, CCP would certainly be well equipped and, perhaps WoD would be a good illustration. Maybe NCSoft as well, but my experience with them is limited and I am just basing that idea off of the Lineage II. On a side note though, SOE certainly has experience taking of development (and destruction?) of games.
This illustrates the problem with trying to project an existing game onto another dev though. It becomes easy to get caught up in the "they wouldn't do this" or "they wouldn't do that" rather then addressing the core question of "how is AV incompetent" which would like be a much more interesting conversation (flames aside) as it contains facts/opinions based on things that exist and not hypotheticals.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
I have no idea. I certainly haven't and won't read every post of his, but a random look produces a 100% result that all his close to 2,000 posts are on the DFO forum telling us how it and its developer fail. I have absolutely no idea what this player considers a fun game, or a good company. I can easily make certain assumptions that are obvious to me, but they are not similar to those you have listed.
In my many years of gaming, I've never seen any one resist sharing what games they actually like whilst discussing games on a message board. The fact he won't answer and uses "off topic", as an excuse, leaves me to realize responding to him any further is not worth my time. I can only hope other readers can see through this drama.
-CC
"Lately it occurs to me,
what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
Not one of those companies have the balls to make a game like DFO. They make games in a manner that is meant for mass consumption. For those who enjoy those games, that's terrific, but for those who enjoy a game like DFO, the past decade has been painful at best. Even simply requesting a PvP server for EQII resulted in deleted posts from the moderators and flames from those who don't like PvP. It eventually arrived and came very close to being excellent, and was a lot of fun for what it was, but failed to go the distance, at least for me and many others I am friends with. All these developers make PvE games, or at most you can say PvP games built around Realm vs Realm, which again, is great, if that's your thing and consequence of death is a mere trip back to your bind point.
It took an independent company to be fortunate enough to fund a dream and allow it to build a game that is outside the square. Some love it, some hate it, and some wonder around in-between, but to suggest they are not competent is pretty absurd given what AV has accomplished as a small independent company. MMO's are extremely complex games to code and given all the non static player driven content in DFO, it is quite remarkable what has been achieved and the distance it has gone from EU release to NA release.
Every single aspect of DFO has improved dramatically, and given each patch has been of substance and regular, my 7-months of playing the game give me zero reason to expect this trend to stop. The hacking sucks, but every game is subject to this and a PvP-Centric game even more so because of the competitive nature of it; none-the-less, any one playing knows how severely the hacking has been curtailed.
As big a fan as I am, of course I recognize where DFO can improve, but the general tone of this board is so far to the extreme of the genuine state of the game and AV's abilities that it makes it very difficult to have a reasonable discussion about this game with most of the daily DFO bashing hobbyist.
Heaven forbid DFO should ever fall in the hands of any of the companies you mentioned. First thing they would do is focus on numbers and water down the game for mass consumption destroying a great game, just like when UO went the way of Trammel. Fortunately for us fans, this ain't happening, as much as some appear to wish it to.
-CC
It's all well and good, but you must remember one thing: Developers make the game we (the royal "we", as would Big Lebowski say) want to play. You talk about watered down games and stuff, but you cannot ignore that all companies go for demographics: they want the largest consumer base possible. Is this wrong? I don't think so.
The result of that is the predominance of PVE games, where lots of people play solo, chat a bit, read crap on Global and eventually team for harder content. If the royal "we" demanded for another kind of game, a gritty, down-and-dirty PvP battle royale, do you have any doubts we would have several games like that? Companies follow money. Money, in present day market, is at PvE. I don't like it, you may not like it, but that's how the cookie crumbles.
And here's AV's original sin: not to take their game and their niche playerbase seriously. They sold us one thing, and delivered another. This is a simple, known fact, that it's indisputable. Their word is printed. Thus, we have this biblical exodus from DFO. They have undermined the very genre they wanted to work with. And that's, for me, borderline psychotic.
The game changed a bit with patches, no one will deny that. However, the damage is done. How can someone who believed the hype and the spin check the site, read about changes, and believe them? The numbers speak for themselves.
There is a reason big Devs don't invest more on PvP: money. Smaller devs might be willing to take a shot at the genre. But if games like DFO hit the market, how can this trend ever change? Players want quality, that's all.
Not one of those companies have the balls to make a game like DFO. They make games in a manner that is meant for mass consumption. For those who enjoy those games, that's terrific, but for those who enjoy a game like DFO, the past decade has been painful at best. Even simply requesting a PvP server for EQII resulted in deleted posts from the moderators and flames from those who don't like PvP. It eventually arrived and came very close to being excellent, and was a lot of fun for what it was, but failed to go the distance, at least for me and many others I am friends with. All these developers make PvE games, or at most you can say PvP games built around Realm vs Realm, which again, is great, if that's your thing and consequence of death is a mere trip back to your bind point.
It took an independent company to be fortunate enough to fund a dream and allow it to build a game that is outside the square. Some love it, some hate it, and some wonder around in-between, but to suggest they are not competent is pretty absurd given what AV has accomplished as a small independent company. MMO's are extremely complex games to code and given all the non static player driven content in DFO, it is quite remarkable what has been achieved and the distance it has gone from EU release to NA release.
Every single aspect of DFO has improved dramatically, and given each patch has been of substance and regular, my 7-months of playing the game give me zero reason to expect this trend to stop. The hacking sucks, but every game is subject to this and a PvP-Centric game even more so because of the competitive nature of it; none-the-less, any one playing knows how severely the hacking has been curtailed.
As big a fan as I am, of course I recognize where DFO can improve, but the general tone of this board is so far to the extreme of the genuine state of the game and AV's abilities that it makes it very difficult to have a reasonable discussion about this game with most of the daily DFO bashing hobbyist.
Heaven forbid DFO should ever fall in the hands of any of the companies you mentioned. First thing they would do is focus on numbers and water down the game for mass consumption destroying a great game, just like when UO went the way of Trammel. Fortunately for us fans, this ain't happening, as much as some appear to wish it to.
-CC
It's all well and good, but you must remember one thing: Developers make the game we (the royal "we", as would Big Lebowski say) want to play. You talk about watered down games and stuff, but you cannot ignore that all companies go for demographics: they want the largest consumer base possible. Is this wrong? I don't think so.
The result of that is the predominance of PVE games, where lots of people play solo, chat a bit, read crap on Global and eventually team for harder content. If the royal "we" demanded for another kind of game, a gritty, down-and-dirty PvP battle royale, do you have any doubts we would have several games like that? Companies follow money. Money, in present day market, is at PvE. I don't like it, you may not like it, but that's how the cookie crumbles.
And here's AV's original sin: not to take their game and their niche playerbase seriously. They sold us one thing, and delivered another. This is a simple, known fact, that it's indisputable. Their word is printed. Thus, we have this biblical exodus from DFO. They have undermined the very genre they wanted to work with. And that's, for me, borderline psychotic.
The game changed a bit with patches, no one will deny that. However, the damage is done. How can someone who believed the hype and the spin check the site, read about changes, and believe them? The numbers speak for themselves.
There is a reason big Devs don't invest more on PvP: money. Smaller devs might be willing to take a shot at the genre. But if games like DFO hit the market, how can this trend ever change? Players want quality, that's all.
Apparently CC doesn't understand that games with large sub base is a big success. To him, its the "evil" "cookie cutter game" as put it. He doesn't get that DFo itself IS a cookie cutter game with absolutely nothing new. Everything that DFo has, has been done by some other game. As a matter of fact, no recent game has "unique" feel to it because some or all of those features have been done before.
DFO tries to be cookie cutter, but fails miserably because of the incompetence of AV. First of all, they tried to fit DFO into a severely limited niche market (full loot open PvP), but they screw up with tons of bugs and bad servers. That severely limited niche market just became severely severely niche. Still, even with all the severity, there are people that like that game. And thats fine. However, what is NOT fine is that some of those people are so narrow minded that they do not see anything beyond their own little game - any other game that is even slightly more succefull becomes "cookie cutter brainless spawn of wow clones".
CC - you can claim all the grandure you want, the fact remains - very few people play your game. Which means it SUX. End of story.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Another point of curiosity; what would that information do for you? I ask because there have been threads on this forum as to what other games people like and they always devolve into "DF is better then your game!" as well as all the associated arguments around that.
Thing is, video games, or to be more specific even, MMOs, are not opposing sports teams. You can like Themepark-A and FFAPvP-B at the same time. Would finding out that someone you disagree with plays WoW really matter? Personally, I have had EvE and WoW accounts active. I've had Pre-CU SWG and FFXI accounts as well. I like MMOs and I can't think I am the only one who can approach the games in this light.
I suppose the other assumption is that a person you are speaking to is actually playing a game atm. Either way, I can respect someone's decision to not post this information given the fact that, historically, doing so just leads to an argument about some game other then DF.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Bingo!
I've been around on this forum long enough to know when someone is being genuine with their curiosity and when they are just fishing for the next straw-man arguement.
Especially since the mods here have made it abundantly clear that they would like all of us to stay on topic to the forum and it's threads.
Darkfall is the type of game where the players keep switching to the newest servers in the hope to be succesfull there (being the top/leet players everyone in that server knows about), ofcourse only a tiny fraction actually succeed in that and the rest leaves altogether waiting till they open a new server. Result: only the newest server has a high population when its just opened, the rest are ghosttowns. The European server thrived for a few weeks and slowly died, the game saw on overall increase of subs when the american server was released but after the initial rush that server is also bleeding, slowly losing players with only a few vets/gankers/hackers/macroers (and so on) left.
Ofcourse with only 2 servers you may find my reasoning absurb, but it WILL happen. They WILL open another server and see a subscriber increase for a few weeks at best, then the game bleeds to death till they open another. Mark my words :P
MMOs currently playing: -
About to play: Lord of the Rings Online
Played: Anarchy Online (alltime favorite) and lots of f2p titles (honorable mentions: 9Dragons, Martial Heroes, Dekaron, Atlantica Online)