A decline in subs usually happens for these reasons:
1. The developers hyped the game up, mass marketing to the wrong audience.
Developers haven't done much except post banners on gamesites and a recurring tv ad at EB Games/Gamestop. A few ads in a few magazines but thats pretty much it other than showing up at gameshows. Everyone has been very humble about it.
2. The end game sucks and the playerbase only found out after release.
Many of us have seen the end game and are pleased. There are things to do and the RvR is excellent. They aren't hiding it from us.
3. The game was too short, hit max level in a few days and nothing to do.
I'm not sure on this one but there are some very hard to obtain items in Aion. Some are reported to sell for expensive money in the RMT sector. End game might have been a problem pre 1.5 patch but 12 new instances and end game pvp over fortresses will tide me over at least until expansion.
4. Developers do massive changes after release changing the game completely and turning off the current playerbase.
Will be really hard to pull an NGE when we know the content we will recieve months before we get it. Aion is doing well in it's current form so we should only see NCSoft reinforcing the Aion gameplay mechanics.
5. Another, better game comes out that caters to the same market.
Not many AAA games due for release in the next 6 months. SWTOR won't be out until at least late 2010.
I believe we won't see a decrease in subs in a market where there is little better out there. The only arguement is WoW and people simply want the "2nd best thing" right now because they are tired of WoW. Korean MMO's tend to increase in subs for about a year through word of mouth. Lineage 2 started at about 70k subs and increased to 100k within a year despite WoW launching.
Dependig on the reviews it receives at launch and if they can keep lag and bugs at a minimum. i'm going to go with 500K in NA and will hit a million in a year if the game gets great reviews.
less than 50k. I hope americans still have some bits of sanity to not play anything that came from the rotten pits of NCsoft.
LOL.. sounds like a personal problem.
Correct me if I'm wrong. NCSoft is the only company that pulled the plug twice in a row within a short period of time. No matter what, if a game is not making money anymore, keeping at least one server up is a sign of their relationships with some long-term customers (even if its just a minority).
SoE at least keeps their games up, NCsoft just shuts them down if things turn out not that well.
Shame on them for being in business to make money! It's my god given right to play video games!
The PVP could hurt its numbers somewhat.. But I think it will draw many from WAR, DAoC (those that are left) AoC, and when people get the feel this game much like old EQ it could draw from them as well. HEck I still know people who play EQ1 and they are interested in Aion after messing around with the beta.
The game is more involved and slow going then games like WOW.. some people call it grind some people call it rewarding depends on which crowd you talk to.. I think alot of old school gamers will Aion but alot of the newer generation of gamers the ME ME ME ME ME.. I WANT IT NOW crowd will leave and call the game a grind..
I see the possibility of 500k probably more in the first 6 months... Why? Because the game runs smooth, is amazing looking has alot of polish and ALOT of content.. Multiple Open world bosses in competition. Instance Bosses .. Stuff for raiders and PVPs alike.. The crafting is great in the game. I see this game being very successful.
there wont be Aion in 6 months.. in 6 months everyone gonna be playing something else. Aion is nice but wont hold people above 1 or 2 month subscription in my opinion.
Do you have multiple personalities or something? In another topic you say if they can avoid the shortcomings of AoC and War it could be a hit then here you say it won't last six months.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
I have no idea what the numbers will be like, I don't follow those statistics, but it will certainly be slower than WoW's was. There was a ton of hype surrounding WoW, especially since they were competing directly with EQ2 at the exact same time. Almost everyone in gaming new about it. Aion does not have that type of focus. Most people have never heard of it. Word of mouth will be slower. Plus, the PvP focus will not appeal to as many people.
Man this thread is stupid. You can really see the WoW fanboys in full force with every post here on this site. it's like a sin for any game to even try to gain it's own ground without getting beat down by a WoW bible.
Ok just curious how well you guys think Aion will do. WoW has 2.5m subs in North America but of course that didn't happen overnight. I'm predicting at least 200k subs since no other major mmo being released this year. It will be great to look back at this 6 months from now and see how people did in their prediction. Please no trolling!
The game will lose a ton of subs with swtor and ffxiv coming out in 2010.
Also the game not being known outside of the forum goer MMO community means it won't be that big. It just doesn't look as good compared to ffxiv and swtor, they make it look out of date. I am going to come back to these forums in 2010 and probably get a good laugh on all the fanboys who are brown nosing this game until they can't breathe.
Hmm hard to say , i know it definitly wont retain alot of the initial players personaly from what i played i dont see myself playing it for years or a year even. Unless the can keep me interested and dont fudge the game up.
Ok just curious how well you guys think Aion will do. WoW has 2.5m subs in North America but of course that didn't happen overnight. I'm predicting at least 200k subs since no other major mmo being released this year. It will be great to look back at this 6 months from now and see how people did in their prediction. Please no trolling!
The game will lose a ton of subs with swtor and ffxiv coming out in 2010.
Also the game not being known outside of the forum goer MMO community means it won't be that big. It just doesn't look as good compared to ffxiv and swtor, they make it look out of date. I am going to come back to these forums in 2010 and probably get a good laugh on all the fanboys who are brown nosing this game until they can't breathe.
So your saying a game thats been out a year and has a few million players in asia doesnt look as good as 2 games that are not even in beta and probably not in alpha yet ? Drop the blinders and fanboyism for FF series and Starwars please. How can anyone say FF14 or Starwars will be better when they have no clue how them games will turn out at all ?
According to what Xfire showed in Beta: Combined EU/NA launch totals: around 400K (40 % less than War and AoC). Subs past 3 months: around 150K. This initial launch number could increase in the following weeks to 500K (because of the end of year period).
How can they have launch totals for EU/NA when the game hasn't launched yet? I know a lot of people use Xfire but there a lot of others that don't so besides trying to show a possible trend from how a game fares at point x to point y if there's a steady decline or increase wtf are Xfire numbers good for anyways?
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
" How many North American subscribers will Aion have in 6 months?"
Well, how many 14 yr old girls are gaming in North America? It seems the game only appeals to said demographic, with all of it's fey male and schoolgirl female avatars and animations and sound, and its pretty glowy soft graphics. Ugh.
According to what Xfire showed in Beta: Combined EU/NA launch totals: around 400K (40 % less than War and AoC). Subs past 3 months: around 150K. This initial launch number could increase in the following weeks to 500K (because of the end of year period).
How can they have launch totals for EU/NA when the game hasn't launched yet? I know a lot of people use Xfire but there a lot of others that don't so besides trying to show a possible trend from how a game fares at point x to point y if there's a steady decline or increase wtf are Xfire numbers good for anyways?
Easy: compare the relative number of Beta players showing on Xfire and you can have a pretty good idea of the several gaming launches that went live in these past 3 years.
How do you think they plan the number of servers themselves anyway? NCSoft knows to around 10/20% accurate by now how many servers they will need to install at launch. Now how many they will tactically install is another matter, but they should know by now already how many copies they made on going gold.
EA planned for a 1.5 M copies run of WAR 1 month before launch, but downgraded that one week before launch to 1.2 M. They still were a little off (800K in 2 weeks), but than the sales stalled.
EA overestimated the sustained market, no second wave. they should have known better....Still War showed around 40% more players in peak Beta than Aion, so I expect them to run around the 400/500K target for NA/EU. Depending on the hype NCSoft wants to create ( servers with waiting queues?), I expect them to launch between 20/25 NA servers.
Frightening isn't it? Exciting also !
Well the game companies themselves obviously have a good estimate to go with from their preorder numbers and having the actual stats of who is playing their game during cb/ob. The problem I have with Xfire is it seems to me that it is something used by a particular group of gamers not all gamers across the board. So while from what I have seen it can be eerily accurate on one game it can be off on another dependant on the amount of users playing the game that actually use Xfire.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Originally posted by Rajen The game will lose a ton of subs with swtor and ffxiv coming out in 2010.
Also the game not being known outside of the forum goer MMO community means it won't be that big. It just doesn't look as good compared to ffxiv and swtor, they make it look out of date. I am going to come back to these forums in 2010 and probably get a good laugh on all the fanboys who are brown nosing this game until they can't breathe.
What a stupid comment. I would never get to play any games if I listened to every troll that told me to wait on some game that is not even close to being released.....most of which end up sucking. Yes, by all means, don't play anything until some game, that you really have no idea if it will be any good or not, gets released next year. <rolls eyes>
Originally posted by Rajen The game will lose a ton of subs with swtor and ffxiv coming out in 2010.
Also the game not being known outside of the forum goer MMO community means it won't be that big. It just doesn't look as good compared to ffxiv and swtor, they make it look out of date. I am going to come back to these forums in 2010 and probably get a good laugh on all the fanboys who are brown nosing this game until they can't breathe.
What a stupid comment. I would never get to play any games if I listened to every troll that told me to wait on some game that is not even close to being released.....most of which end up sucking. Yes, by all means, don't play anything until some game, that you really have no idea if it will be any good or not, gets released next year. <rolls eyes>
lol, I think we will see Aion do fairly well, comparing any thing to War is a bit of a joke that pore game had such potental pulled right out from under it well before it whent live. I think the biggest help or hindrence to the game will be marketing (I hate saying that) the game is fun and seems to be well rounded enogh to appeal to a fair group of players but if players dont know that they wont play it then again a rather large % of MMO gamers play NCSoft games and if you play NCSoft how can you not know about Aion and GW2.
I wont go spewing any hard numbers since I know enough to knwo that I haven't a clue but I feel the game will perform better than War and AoC by far.
As to the "Dont play this game because there is another coming thats better" I just shrug I'll try both you dirty little troll go eat some worms.
I pre-ordered the game and will play it for a while.
I think its hard to state how many surscribers a game will have...
Tho I do have a feeling that the game will do very well inititally and then may have a large drop off in North America.
There is a reason I feel this way but I think it might derail the topic. So we'll see what happens... I do think it will do better than most MMO have lately.
My crystal ball is on the fritz, so I'll get back to you. Just curious, what purpose does such speculation serve? What data are you hoping to gain here? Should we expect a thread six months from now that says, "I was right!" if such an event does occur? Not an attack, just trying to understand your intentions. -DR
No purpose. Zero. Same stupid questions ad nausem. "What if my belly button ruptures?" "Will I ever have an original or educated thought?". It's become an internet forum staple.
It's never ending and there's always a knucklehead to fill the bill.
Aion will do fine. It will end up like EQ2. It will be a safe bet as far as content, population, and longevity.
My crystal ball is on the fritz, so I'll get back to you. Just curious, what purpose does such speculation serve? What data are you hoping to gain here? Should we expect a thread six months from now that says, "I was right!" if such an event does occur? Not an attack, just trying to understand your intentions. -DR
No purpose. Zero. Same stupid questions ad nausem. "What if my belly button ruptures?" "Will I ever have an original or educated thought?". It's become an internet forum staple.
It's never ending and there's always a knucklehead to fill the bill.
Aion will do fine. It will end up like EQ2. It will be a safe bet as far as content, population, and longevity.
Beats out your post of HAMMEH TIME!
There is no such thing as a stupid post, just stupid answers.
This thread is merely a study on the MMORPG player base.
Ok just curious how well you guys think Aion will do. WoW has 2.5m subs in North America but of course that didn't happen overnight. I'm predicting at least 200k subs since no other major mmo being released this year. It will be great to look back at this 6 months from now and see how people did in their prediction. Please no trolling!
The game will lose a ton of subs with swtor and ffxiv coming out in 2010.
Also the game not being known outside of the forum goer MMO community means it won't be that big. It just doesn't look as good compared to ffxiv and swtor, they make it look out of date. I am going to come back to these forums in 2010 and probably get a good laugh on all the fanboys who are brown nosing this game until they can't breathe.
So your saying a game thats been out a year and has a few million players in asia doesnt look as good as 2 games that are not even in beta and probably not in alpha yet ? Drop the blinders and fanboyism for FF series and Starwars please. How can anyone say FF14 or Starwars will be better when they have no clue how them games will turn out at all ?
With the exception of WoW, it seems to me that the more popular a game is in the East, the less popular it is in the West. Even Western made games that are considered mediocre, tend to have more Western subscribers than the best games that come from the East.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Comments
I`m not sure what`s more funny, the silly OP question or the "expert" answers
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
A decline in subs usually happens for these reasons:
1. The developers hyped the game up, mass marketing to the wrong audience.
Developers haven't done much except post banners on gamesites and a recurring tv ad at EB Games/Gamestop. A few ads in a few magazines but thats pretty much it other than showing up at gameshows. Everyone has been very humble about it.
2. The end game sucks and the playerbase only found out after release.
Many of us have seen the end game and are pleased. There are things to do and the RvR is excellent. They aren't hiding it from us.
3. The game was too short, hit max level in a few days and nothing to do.
I'm not sure on this one but there are some very hard to obtain items in Aion. Some are reported to sell for expensive money in the RMT sector. End game might have been a problem pre 1.5 patch but 12 new instances and end game pvp over fortresses will tide me over at least until expansion.
4. Developers do massive changes after release changing the game completely and turning off the current playerbase.
Will be really hard to pull an NGE when we know the content we will recieve months before we get it. Aion is doing well in it's current form so we should only see NCSoft reinforcing the Aion gameplay mechanics.
5. Another, better game comes out that caters to the same market.
Not many AAA games due for release in the next 6 months. SWTOR won't be out until at least late 2010.
I believe we won't see a decrease in subs in a market where there is little better out there. The only arguement is WoW and people simply want the "2nd best thing" right now because they are tired of WoW. Korean MMO's tend to increase in subs for about a year through word of mouth. Lineage 2 started at about 70k subs and increased to 100k within a year despite WoW launching.
It will probably be at around 100k.
Which is pretty good for today's economy/Wow mmo dominance.
there wont be Aion in 6 months.. in 6 months everyone gonna be playing something else.
Aion is nice but wont hold people above 1 or 2 month subscription in my opinion.
Dependig on the reviews it receives at launch and if they can keep lag and bugs at a minimum. i'm going to go with 500K in NA and will hit a million in a year if the game gets great reviews.
The beta is smooth so we will see.
LOL.. sounds like a personal problem.
Correct me if I'm wrong. NCSoft is the only company that pulled the plug twice in a row within a short period of time. No matter what, if a game is not making money anymore, keeping at least one server up is a sign of their relationships with some long-term customers (even if its just a minority).
SoE at least keeps their games up, NCsoft just shuts them down if things turn out not that well.
Shame on them for being in business to make money! It's my god given right to play video games!
And I say...wth...1.2 mil
The PVP could hurt its numbers somewhat.. But I think it will draw many from WAR, DAoC (those that are left) AoC, and when people get the feel this game much like old EQ it could draw from them as well. HEck I still know people who play EQ1 and they are interested in Aion after messing around with the beta.
The game is more involved and slow going then games like WOW.. some people call it grind some people call it rewarding depends on which crowd you talk to.. I think alot of old school gamers will Aion but alot of the newer generation of gamers the ME ME ME ME ME.. I WANT IT NOW crowd will leave and call the game a grind..
I see the possibility of 500k probably more in the first 6 months... Why? Because the game runs smooth, is amazing looking has alot of polish and ALOT of content.. Multiple Open world bosses in competition. Instance Bosses .. Stuff for raiders and PVPs alike.. The crafting is great in the game. I see this game being very successful.
Do you have multiple personalities or something? In another topic you say if they can avoid the shortcomings of AoC and War it could be a hit then here you say it won't last six months.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
I have no idea what the numbers will be like, I don't follow those statistics, but it will certainly be slower than WoW's was. There was a ton of hype surrounding WoW, especially since they were competing directly with EQ2 at the exact same time. Almost everyone in gaming new about it. Aion does not have that type of focus. Most people have never heard of it. Word of mouth will be slower. Plus, the PvP focus will not appeal to as many people.
Man this thread is stupid. You can really see the WoW fanboys in full force with every post here on this site. it's like a sin for any game to even try to gain it's own ground without getting beat down by a WoW bible.
Momo sucks, I have proof.
The game will lose a ton of subs with swtor and ffxiv coming out in 2010.
Also the game not being known outside of the forum goer MMO community means it won't be that big. It just doesn't look as good compared to ffxiv and swtor, they make it look out of date. I am going to come back to these forums in 2010 and probably get a good laugh on all the fanboys who are brown nosing this game until they can't breathe.
Hmm hard to say , i know it definitly wont retain alot of the initial players personaly from what i played i dont see myself playing it for years or a year even. Unless the can keep me interested and dont fudge the game up.
The game will lose a ton of subs with swtor and ffxiv coming out in 2010.
Also the game not being known outside of the forum goer MMO community means it won't be that big. It just doesn't look as good compared to ffxiv and swtor, they make it look out of date. I am going to come back to these forums in 2010 and probably get a good laugh on all the fanboys who are brown nosing this game until they can't breathe.
So your saying a game thats been out a year and has a few million players in asia doesnt look as good as 2 games that are not even in beta and probably not in alpha yet ? Drop the blinders and fanboyism for FF series and Starwars please. How can anyone say FF14 or Starwars will be better when they have no clue how them games will turn out at all ?
Very hard to say since around the 6 months Marker the expansion pack should be out or very close to coming out.
How can they have launch totals for EU/NA when the game hasn't launched yet? I know a lot of people use Xfire but there a lot of others that don't so besides trying to show a possible trend from how a game fares at point x to point y if there's a steady decline or increase wtf are Xfire numbers good for anyways?
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Anywhere from 100k-150k after 6 months. Aion's problem is going to be trying to keep people happy after max level and zerg vs zerg pvp.
" How many North American subscribers will Aion have in 6 months?"
Well, how many 14 yr old girls are gaming in North America? It seems the game only appeals to said demographic, with all of it's fey male and schoolgirl female avatars and animations and sound, and its pretty glowy soft graphics. Ugh.
How can they have launch totals for EU/NA when the game hasn't launched yet? I know a lot of people use Xfire but there a lot of others that don't so besides trying to show a possible trend from how a game fares at point x to point y if there's a steady decline or increase wtf are Xfire numbers good for anyways?
Easy: compare the relative number of Beta players showing on Xfire and you can have a pretty good idea of the several gaming launches that went live in these past 3 years.
How do you think they plan the number of servers themselves anyway? NCSoft knows to around 10/20% accurate by now how many servers they will need to install at launch. Now how many they will tactically install is another matter, but they should know by now already how many copies they made on going gold.
EA planned for a 1.5 M copies run of WAR 1 month before launch, but downgraded that one week before launch to 1.2 M. They still were a little off (800K in 2 weeks), but than the sales stalled.
EA overestimated the sustained market, no second wave. they should have known better....Still War showed around 40% more players in peak Beta than Aion, so I expect them to run around the 400/500K target for NA/EU. Depending on the hype NCSoft wants to create ( servers with waiting queues?), I expect them to launch between 20/25 NA servers.
Frightening isn't it? Exciting also !
Well the game companies themselves obviously have a good estimate to go with from their preorder numbers and having the actual stats of who is playing their game during cb/ob. The problem I have with Xfire is it seems to me that it is something used by a particular group of gamers not all gamers across the board. So while from what I have seen it can be eerily accurate on one game it can be off on another dependant on the amount of users playing the game that actually use Xfire.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
What a stupid comment. I would never get to play any games if I listened to every troll that told me to wait on some game that is not even close to being released.....most of which end up sucking. Yes, by all means, don't play anything until some game, that you really have no idea if it will be any good or not, gets released next year. <rolls eyes>
What a stupid comment. I would never get to play any games if I listened to every troll that told me to wait on some game that is not even close to being released.....most of which end up sucking. Yes, by all means, don't play anything until some game, that you really have no idea if it will be any good or not, gets released next year. <rolls eyes>
lol, I think we will see Aion do fairly well, comparing any thing to War is a bit of a joke that pore game had such potental pulled right out from under it well before it whent live. I think the biggest help or hindrence to the game will be marketing (I hate saying that) the game is fun and seems to be well rounded enogh to appeal to a fair group of players but if players dont know that they wont play it then again a rather large % of MMO gamers play NCSoft games and if you play NCSoft how can you not know about Aion and GW2.
I wont go spewing any hard numbers since I know enough to knwo that I haven't a clue but I feel the game will perform better than War and AoC by far.
As to the "Dont play this game because there is another coming thats better" I just shrug I'll try both you dirty little troll go eat some worms.
I pre-ordered the game and will play it for a while.
I think its hard to state how many surscribers a game will have...
Tho I do have a feeling that the game will do very well inititally and then may have a large drop off in North America.
There is a reason I feel this way but I think it might derail the topic. So we'll see what happens... I do think it will do better than most MMO have lately.
No purpose. Zero. Same stupid questions ad nausem. "What if my belly button ruptures?" "Will I ever have an original or educated thought?". It's become an internet forum staple.
It's never ending and there's always a knucklehead to fill the bill.
Aion will do fine. It will end up like EQ2. It will be a safe bet as far as content, population, and longevity.
No purpose. Zero. Same stupid questions ad nausem. "What if my belly button ruptures?" "Will I ever have an original or educated thought?". It's become an internet forum staple.
It's never ending and there's always a knucklehead to fill the bill.
Aion will do fine. It will end up like EQ2. It will be a safe bet as far as content, population, and longevity.
Beats out your post of HAMMEH TIME!
There is no such thing as a stupid post, just stupid answers.
This thread is merely a study on the MMORPG player base.
Fight Me! http://zunarn.mybrute.com
Eleventy trazillion
The following statement is false
The previous statement is true
The game will lose a ton of subs with swtor and ffxiv coming out in 2010.
Also the game not being known outside of the forum goer MMO community means it won't be that big. It just doesn't look as good compared to ffxiv and swtor, they make it look out of date. I am going to come back to these forums in 2010 and probably get a good laugh on all the fanboys who are brown nosing this game until they can't breathe.
So your saying a game thats been out a year and has a few million players in asia doesnt look as good as 2 games that are not even in beta and probably not in alpha yet ? Drop the blinders and fanboyism for FF series and Starwars please. How can anyone say FF14 or Starwars will be better when they have no clue how them games will turn out at all ?
With the exception of WoW, it seems to me that the more popular a game is in the East, the less popular it is in the West. Even Western made games that are considered mediocre, tend to have more Western subscribers than the best games that come from the East.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal