That's not true at all, at least in the F2P games I've played. I know several people in RoM, for instance, who are at level cap and haven't spent a dime. Numerous others I know have spent less than $20 (just enough to buy a mount). Again, they aren't making the game to be a charity organization. Of course they want to make as much money as they can (don't all businesses?) and they make the item mall appealing to people so they make a profit. I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that's a scam. Addictive, yes, but a scam? Between myself, my wife, and our 3 kids, we've spent about $100 on RoM over an 8 month period... that breaks down to $20 per person for 8 months of gameplay (so $2.50 per person per month). If we were all to play a P2P game, our household cost would be closer to $775 ($50 per box and $15 per month after the 1st month). How is that at all a scam?
RoM must be a trully exception, as most of the Asian F2P games pretty much force you into their item malls. Or at a given moment you won't be able to play the game anymore. Simple as that.
That's why I have grown to hate F2P MMO's and their item malls.
Not to mention that when they have PVP it will get even worse. As it's the people with the biggest wallets that run around with the best of the best gear litterly obliterating everyone else. Just fueling the need for people to use the Item Mall.
In most PVE oriented Asian F2P games it's so set up, that when you get close to the cap you can't participate in most of the group content unless you buy the required potions from the item mall. And sometimes even required gear! And you don't want to know how fast it goes with those potions. People spend easily between 50 and 100 dollars a month on potions alone in some of those F2P games!!
If RoM isn't like that at all. Not even at the endgame. Than I am trully suprised and it would be the first F2P game in wich it isnt the case. But I hardly doubt it.
Well you've got nothing to lose by trying it
RoM doesn't force you to use the item mall by any means. Sure there's a very high level of temptation to use it but there's no requirement in order to keep playing. RoM does have PvP severs, and obviously the guy that spends the most money wins, but I stick to the PvE servers so it's not an issue for me. Many of the things on the item mall can be acquired using in-game currency (gold or tokens), it just takes longer. And if you wanted to, you can even buy the item mall currency (diamonds) with game gold from people selling them on the Auction House (granted they are expensive). So really it's just a matter of whether you want to put in more time and do things for free, or pay money and spend less time.
Well TheStarheart, what if i don't want to pay for others? I would much prefer to pay my own amount of money in micros than to pay as if i would pay the government, which is equal for everyone, that you profit from it or not.
Odd comparison. I have a feeling there's a negative connotation in there, but... just an odd comparison to me.
I would compare a monthly sub to paying for Cable... You pay the same monthly fee and have access to all the channels all the time (service outages notwithstanding). Whether you watch it every day, or only twice a month, the point is, you're paying for the service to be there when you want to use it. It all depends on how much wisdom you put into micro, some people have very little retain, such as in real life some people buy stuff they don't need at the cost of ruining their wallets, i don't want to have to pay for the people who lack the judgment to save up their money properly.
Again, I don't understand where you're coming from here. You're not paying for anyone else with a subscription. You're paying for your access to the game... the same as everyone else is. You get no more or no less content than anyone else, and you all pay the same fee. How much or how little extra money you can afford to spend means nothing. It's an even playing field.
If you're one of those who believes it's not fair to be paying as much as others if you're not playing as much (not saying you are... but if...), then that's irrelevant. How much or how little time a person has to play isn't the company's problem. Just as it isn't the Cable company's problem how much or little time you have to watch TV. You're paying for that service to be there when you do want it.
Here's the thing about Microtransactions... You only seem to be looking at it from your own point-of-view - which is fine. It works for you.
Microtransactions work, though, because there *are* so many out there who will spend 3 or 4 times - if not more - than a normal monthly fee on item-mall items. If everyone took a more conservative approach to micro-transactions, spending less than a normal monthly fee across months at a time, they would likely fail because the companies would not make enough to keep the game going... or at least not make very much at all. To put it another way, those who, like you, don't spend much on the item malls, are not the ones they are targeting with that business model.
So... in a sense... playing on your theme of "paying for others", you could say those who pay several times more a month in microtransactions are indirectly paying for you to be able to spend far less.
A good plan fitting for both choices is the new system the game DDO is offering, they offer both item-mall and monthly option, so for those who prefer micro, they can go micro, for those who prefer monthly, they can go monthly, and if you prefer none, you can be none. Accessibility offers great gateways for the gaming community, i believe that a company who doesn't offer accessibility is old-fashioned in their way of thinking.
I don't disagree with the idea of having more flexible payment options. I accept that microtransactions are an accepted payment model that seems to work for many... I just don't like anything about it and prefer to pay a standard, static subscription fee.
However... your spin on subs here is really a bit absurd.
So, because microtransactions come along, subscriptions are "old-fashioned"? Oh, come on. That's seems a bit self-edifying to me. "You're all supporting an old-fashioned business model, while I am supporting a new, better approach". You're supporting it because it works for you personally. Others support it because they'll get whatever they can for as little as they can, whatever their reasons. And yet others support it because they'd likely be paying all that money on RMT, on top of a sub fee, in other MMOs anyway. I personally believe the micro-transaction model has grown out of the whole gold-selling/buying behavior of people. Companies saw way more money going to third-party sales than they saw in subscription fees and devised a way to get in on the action without outright "supporting" it. There's nothing "new" in the thinking. It's good old-fashioned greed at work - business as usual, in other words. That's my theory anyway. Subscription models are just as current as they've ever been. There's nothing "old fashioned" about it. You still pay subs for cable service, magazine subscriptions, internet service... and on and on... It's a system that works.
In any case... SE isn't going with microtransactions because, in my view, they "get it". They see the bigger picture with that business model and, it seems, have done their homework. So... hey... as long as I'm paying the same sub fee as everyone else, and we all have the same access to the same content, then all is well.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
The anniversary date of when you signed up; the way it works for most MMOs. If you sign up on the 25th of this month, you're charged on the 25th of each month thereafter.
Ditching POL helped with this. I think I read somewhere they might even do something along the lines of play a week cancel and only be billed for a week. Not sure if thats how it works but it s smart IMO. I can t tell you how many times I wanted to try games again without a trial, or wanted to play my highest level only to have to pay a month and leave within a week. Also would be great for people going on holidays etc.
The anniversary date of when you signed up; the way it works for most MMOs. If you sign up on the 25th of this month, you're charged on the 25th of each month thereafter.
Ditching POL helped with this. I think I read somewhere they might even do something along the lines of play a week cancel and only be billed for a week. Not sure if thats how it works but it s smart IMO. I can t tell you how many times I wanted to try games again without a trial, or wanted to play my highest level only to have to pay a month and leave within a week. Also would be great for people going on holidays etc.
Ahh, so they'll be pro-rating payments as well. Good move. That's another problem with the setup for FFXI - which has been described here - they never pro-rate.
So that's def. a step in the right direction.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
It is good to still see companies doing the sub and nothing but the sub method. I don't and won't play microtransaction games. And I definetly won't play a game that has you pay a sub and then has microtransactions on top of it. I'm tired of companies trying to incorporate the item mall method. I don't want to buy my way to the top and I also don't want to have to buy bonus xp potions and weapons with real life money.
I know there are people who want a game to use microtransactions because they plan on never buying anything and playing the game for free. However you lose a lot of the gameplay when you take that aproach. But just like Mike I'm not surprised so many companies are trying it when you see how many idiots keep buying gold from companies because they're too lazy to play the game. Item malls are exactly what those people want.
I hadn't been following final fantasy but I will start taking a look at the game now.
But in the case i described you have all the alternatives, how can you refuse that? You got yer monthly option if you want it, so take it if you prefer it over micro or free.
Are you able to buy items - or an equivalent - outright via a micro-transaction that those on a monthly sub quest/raid/etc. for? If so, then that's the problem. It's an uneven playing field.
The reason I, and presumably others, prefer the subscription method is because the sub is there purely for your access to the game, including *all* the content. Everyone's in the same boat. Whether or not you have the extra funds to buy that "+5 Sword of Smiting" is moot, because you can acquire it by playing the game and overcoming whatever challenge is required, just like everyone else. In an item-mall/microtransaction setup, if one person can afford that sword, and someone else can't.. it has nothing to do with their in-game skill or persistence... One had the extra $$$ on their card, the other one didn't. That has absolutely nothing to do with gameplay. They didn't have to earn the sword by defeating a tough enemy, or completing a difficult quest chain... They pull out their real-life credit card, or spend some "credits" purchased with that credit card, and suddenly their in-game character has a shiny new sword. That's about as anti-gameplay as you can get, in my opinion.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
The biggest problem I have with P2P is the up-front cost and cost of expansions. I got burned pretty bad on Warhammer, for instance. Paid the $50 up-front money... paid for an additional two months (hoping my initial $50 investment would pay off)... so $80 later I'm feeling ripped off. It was definitely not even worth half of that. If MMORPG games allowed you to download the game for free and just pay for the account ( $10-$15 monthly subscription) I think that would be my ideal model. You get to try the game for almost nothing to see if it's something you like, and you don't have people buying their way to ub3rness.
You know you won't get ripped off by ffxiv
Perhaps, i agree that it would be very nice if we could get the game for free and pay a monhtly sub to get to try it out for $15. Or maybe they could sell the game like $40 and include 30 days free, thats $25 for the game which isn't that bad. But anyway, even if it's $70 i'll buy it when it comes out hehe
But in the case i described you have all the alternatives, how can you refuse that? You got yer monthly option if you want it, so take it if you prefer it over micro or free.
Are you able to buy items - or an equivalent - outright via a micro-transaction that those on a monthly sub quest/raid/etc. for? If so, then that's the problem. It's an uneven playing field.
The reason I, and presumably others, prefer the subscription method is because the sub is there purely for your access to the game, including *all* the content. Everyone's in the same boat. Whether or not you have the extra funds to buy that "+5 Sword of Smiting" is moot, because you can acquire it by playing the game and overcoming whatever challenge is required, just like everyone else. In an item-mall/microtransaction setup, if one person can afford that sword, and someone else can't.. it has nothing to do with their in-game skill or persistence... One had the extra $$$ on their card, the other one didn't. That has absolutely nothing to do with gameplay. They didn't have to earn the sword by defeating a tough enemy, or completing a difficult quest chain... They pull out their real-life credit card, or spend some "credits" purchased with that credit card, and suddenly their in-game character has a shiny new sword. That's about as anti-gameplay as you can get, in my opinion.
That's really no different than the basement-dweller who has more time to play in a P2P game vs. the guy who works 50+ hours a week and maybe gets to login for 30 minutes a night. It's an uneven playing field. The basement dweller can get all of the top gear because he wastes his life away in the game whereas the RL working casual guy probably never will get the top gear. The micro-transaction model somewhat reverses this role. The RL hard working guy now can get the top gear whereas the no-job basement dweller probably never will. It's just a matter of perspective.
Also, just to correct one point of yours... from my experience, the micro-transaction games don't offer items, but rather upgrades to existing items. So you still have to put in the time to do the game content to get the item you want to upgrade. So it's not as simple as opening your wallet and you're instantly a god.
The biggest problem I have with P2P is the up-front cost and cost of expansions. I got burned pretty bad on Warhammer, for instance. Paid the $50 up-front money... paid for an additional two months (hoping my initial $50 investment would pay off)... so $80 later I'm feeling ripped off. It was definitely not even worth half of that. If MMORPG games allowed you to download the game for free and just pay for the account ( $10-$15 monthly subscription) I think that would be my ideal model. You get to try the game for almost nothing to see if it's something you like, and you don't have people buying their way to ub3rness.
You know you won't get ripped off by ffxiv
Perhaps, i agree that it would be very nice if we could get the game for free and pay a monhtly sub to get to try it out for $15. Or maybe they could sell the game like $40 and include 30 days free, thats $25 for the game which isn't that bad. But anyway, even if it's $70 i'll buy it when it comes out hehe
Actually, including the first 30 days with the initial purchase is pretty standard for MMOs.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
The biggest problem I have with P2P is the up-front cost and cost of expansions. I got burned pretty bad on Warhammer, for instance. Paid the $50 up-front money... paid for an additional two months (hoping my initial $50 investment would pay off)... so $80 later I'm feeling ripped off. It was definitely not even worth half of that. If MMORPG games allowed you to download the game for free and just pay for the account ( $10-$15 monthly subscription) I think that would be my ideal model. You get to try the game for almost nothing to see if it's something you like, and you don't have people buying their way to ub3rness.
You know you won't get ripped off by ffxiv
Perhaps, i agree that it would be very nice if we could get the game for free and pay a monhtly sub to get to try it out for $15. Or maybe they could sell the game like $40 and include 30 days free, thats $25 for the game which isn't that bad. But anyway, even if it's $70 i'll buy it when it comes out hehe
I agree, I don't expect to get ripped off by FFXIV, but I didn't expect to get ripped off by Warhammer either (considering what a great job they did with DAoC).
But in the case i described you have all the alternatives, how can you refuse that? You got yer monthly option if you want it, so take it if you prefer it over micro or free.
Are you able to buy items - or an equivalent - outright via a micro-transaction that those on a monthly sub quest/raid/etc. for? If so, then that's the problem. It's an uneven playing field.
The reason I, and presumably others, prefer the subscription method is because the sub is there purely for your access to the game, including *all* the content. Everyone's in the same boat. Whether or not you have the extra funds to buy that "+5 Sword of Smiting" is moot, because you can acquire it by playing the game and overcoming whatever challenge is required, just like everyone else. In an item-mall/microtransaction setup, if one person can afford that sword, and someone else can't.. it has nothing to do with their in-game skill or persistence... One had the extra $$$ on their card, the other one didn't. That has absolutely nothing to do with gameplay. They didn't have to earn the sword by defeating a tough enemy, or completing a difficult quest chain... They pull out their real-life credit card, or spend some "credits" purchased with that credit card, and suddenly their in-game character has a shiny new sword. That's about as anti-gameplay as you can get, in my opinion.
That's really no different than the basement-dweller who has more time to play in a P2P game vs. the guy who works 50+ hours a week and maybe gets to login for 30 minutes a night. It's an uneven playing field. The basement dweller can get all of the top gear because he wastes his life away in the game whereas the RL working casual guy probably never will get the top gear. The micro-transaction model somewhat reverses this role. The RL hard working guy now can get the top gear whereas the no-job basement dweller probably never will. It's just a matter of perspective.
Also, just to correct one point of yours... from my experience, the micro-transaction games don't offer items, but rather upgrades to existing items. So you still have to put in the time to do the game content to get the item you want to upgrade. So it's not as simple as opening your wallet and you're instantly a god.
Nonsense.
The person with more time has no less to do in the game to acquire a given item than the person with less time. The gameplay is even for all involved, for the same subscription fee.
The control in a subscription-based game is anchored in the gameplay. Whether it takes someone an hour or a day to achieve the same goal, they were able to do it within the context of the game, by completing the same challenge, for the same sub fee as everyone else. Players can help each other achieve that goal. Players can compete against each other for for that goal. Players can attempt to achieve it by themself, at their own pace... There may be multiple ways to go about achieving the goal... etc. etc. Whether that goal be a certain achievement, or obtaining a certain item, again, everything is anchored in the gameplay, where it should be.
In a microtransaction setup, that control is taken out of the game and placed in a given person's wallet. Gameplay is completely removed from the equation and if someone doesn't have the funds to afford a given item, there's nothing they can do about it. There's no other option for them to acquire it... unless it's also available via in-game means.. which is, again, a problem in itself.
As for being a god... No.. you're not a god, but that's also a disingenuous way to characterize it. It has nothing to do with being a "god", it has to do with being competitive at the end-game. I've played several of those F2P/Item Mall games and having spoken to people who've been playing a long time, it all comes down to the same thing... You can play the game very casually if you wish without paying a dime. But if you want to be competitive and keep up with others in the game - especially end-game - you are going to be dumping money into the item malls. These are people who play and enjoy the game enough to spend the money... They also acknowledge it for what it is.
In one in particular, I was told, in no uncertain terms by 3 other players in a guild I joined: "If you don't plan to spend at least $30 a month on xp potions, and HP/MP regens, then plan on being steamrolled in PvP". Some of them spend considerably more than that.
For those who would say "but you don't have to PvP"...
A: What if I want to?
B: The PvE side was pretty much the same, only for different reasons.
In a subscription based game, leveling is based on how quickly the player wants to, and is capable of, leveling... And they have to go through it, just like anyone else. There is no "spend money and level faster" option. Getting those good items is a matter of overcoming the same challenges as everyone else who has it; there is no "buy now" button. Everyone has the same content to contend with... everyone's on a level playing field.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
But in the case i described you have all the alternatives, how can you refuse that? You got yer monthly option if you want it, so take it if you prefer it over micro or free.
Are you able to buy items - or an equivalent - outright via a micro-transaction that those on a monthly sub quest/raid/etc. for? If so, then that's the problem. It's an uneven playing field.
The reason I, and presumably others, prefer the subscription method is because the sub is there purely for your access to the game, including *all* the content. Everyone's in the same boat. Whether or not you have the extra funds to buy that "+5 Sword of Smiting" is moot, because you can acquire it by playing the game and overcoming whatever challenge is required, just like everyone else. In an item-mall/microtransaction setup, if one person can afford that sword, and someone else can't.. it has nothing to do with their in-game skill or persistence... One had the extra $$$ on their card, the other one didn't. That has absolutely nothing to do with gameplay. They didn't have to earn the sword by defeating a tough enemy, or completing a difficult quest chain... They pull out their real-life credit card, or spend some "credits" purchased with that credit card, and suddenly their in-game character has a shiny new sword. That's about as anti-gameplay as you can get, in my opinion.
That's really no different than the basement-dweller who has more time to play in a P2P game vs. the guy who works 50+ hours a week and maybe gets to login for 30 minutes a night. It's an uneven playing field. The basement dweller can get all of the top gear because he wastes his life away in the game whereas the RL working casual guy probably never will get the top gear. The micro-transaction model somewhat reverses this role. The RL hard working guy now can get the top gear whereas the no-job basement dweller probably never will. It's just a matter of perspective.
Also, just to correct one point of yours... from my experience, the micro-transaction games don't offer items, but rather upgrades to existing items. So you still have to put in the time to do the game content to get the item you want to upgrade. So it's not as simple as opening your wallet and you're instantly a god.
Nonsense.
The person with more time has no less to do in the game to acquire a given item than the person with less time. The gameplay is even for all involved, for the same amount of money.
The control in a subscription-based game is anchored in the gameplay. Whether it takes someone an hour or a day to achieve the same goal, they were able to do it within the context of the game, by completing the same challenge, for the same sub fee as everyone else. Players can help each other acquire that item. Players can compete against each other for that item. Players can attempt to acquire it by themself, at their own pace... etc. etc. Again, everything is anchored in the gameplay, where it should be.
In a microtransaction setup, that control is taken out of the game and placed in a given person's wallet. Gameplay is completely removed from the equation and if someone doesn't have the funds to afford a given item, there's nothing they can do about it. There's no other option for them to acquire it... unless it's also available via in-game means.. which is, again, a problem in itself.
As for being a god... No.. you're not a god, but that's also a disingenuous way to characterize it. It has nothing to do with being a "god", it has to do with being competitive at the end-game. I've played several of those F2P/Item Mall games and having spoken to people who've been playing a long time, it all comes down to the same thing... You can play the game very casually if you wish without paying a dime. But if you want to be competitive and keep up with others in the game - especially end-game - you are going to be dumping money into the item malls. These are people who play and enjoy the game enough to spend the money... They also acknowledge it for what it is.
I'm sorry but you're wrong. At least in the case of RoM. I can achieve EXACTLY the same level of uberness as the guy who buys everything there is on the cash shop, it just takes me longer. As much as I'd like for P2P games to give me (as a very casual player) the same opportunity to get the top items as the harcore player, it's just not reality. Sitting down and playing for an hour a night for a week isn't the same as playing for 7 hours in one sitting, even though it's the same amount of time. Typically in P2P games, end-game content takes a very large chunk of contiguous time to complete, not broken up in parts. Even WoW is this way and it's considered a "casual friendly" game. You still have to raid for 4+ hours in a sitting to get the best gear. Maybe FFXIV will be different... maybe.
But in the case i described you have all the alternatives, how can you refuse that? You got yer monthly option if you want it, so take it if you prefer it over micro or free.
Are you able to buy items - or an equivalent - outright via a micro-transaction that those on a monthly sub quest/raid/etc. for? If so, then that's the problem. It's an uneven playing field.
The reason I, and presumably others, prefer the subscription method is because the sub is there purely for your access to the game, including *all* the content. Everyone's in the same boat. Whether or not you have the extra funds to buy that "+5 Sword of Smiting" is moot, because you can acquire it by playing the game and overcoming whatever challenge is required, just like everyone else. In an item-mall/microtransaction setup, if one person can afford that sword, and someone else can't.. it has nothing to do with their in-game skill or persistence... One had the extra $$$ on their card, the other one didn't. That has absolutely nothing to do with gameplay. They didn't have to earn the sword by defeating a tough enemy, or completing a difficult quest chain... They pull out their real-life credit card, or spend some "credits" purchased with that credit card, and suddenly their in-game character has a shiny new sword. That's about as anti-gameplay as you can get, in my opinion.
That's really no different than the basement-dweller who has more time to play in a P2P game vs. the guy who works 50+ hours a week and maybe gets to login for 30 minutes a night. It's an uneven playing field. The basement dweller can get all of the top gear because he wastes his life away in the game whereas the RL working casual guy probably never will get the top gear. The micro-transaction model somewhat reverses this role. The RL hard working guy now can get the top gear whereas the no-job basement dweller probably never will. It's just a matter of perspective.
Also, just to correct one point of yours... from my experience, the micro-transaction games don't offer items, but rather upgrades to existing items. So you still have to put in the time to do the game content to get the item you want to upgrade. So it's not as simple as opening your wallet and you're instantly a god.
Nonsense.
The person with more time has no less to do in the game to acquire a given item than the person with less time. The gameplay is even for all involved, for the same amount of money.
The control in a subscription-based game is anchored in the gameplay. Whether it takes someone an hour or a day to achieve the same goal, they were able to do it within the context of the game, by completing the same challenge, for the same sub fee as everyone else. Players can help each other acquire that item. Players can compete against each other for that item. Players can attempt to acquire it by themself, at their own pace... etc. etc. Again, everything is anchored in the gameplay, where it should be.
In a microtransaction setup, that control is taken out of the game and placed in a given person's wallet. Gameplay is completely removed from the equation and if someone doesn't have the funds to afford a given item, there's nothing they can do about it. There's no other option for them to acquire it... unless it's also available via in-game means.. which is, again, a problem in itself.
As for being a god... No.. you're not a god, but that's also a disingenuous way to characterize it. It has nothing to do with being a "god", it has to do with being competitive at the end-game. I've played several of those F2P/Item Mall games and having spoken to people who've been playing a long time, it all comes down to the same thing... You can play the game very casually if you wish without paying a dime. But if you want to be competitive and keep up with others in the game - especially end-game - you are going to be dumping money into the item malls. These are people who play and enjoy the game enough to spend the money... They also acknowledge it for what it is.
I'm sorry but you're wrong. At least in the case of RoM. I can achieve EXACTLY the same level of uberness as the guy who buys everything there is on the cash shop, it just takes me longer. As much as I'd like for P2P games to give me (as a very casual player) the same opportunity to get the top items as the harcore player, it's just not reality. Sitting down and playing for an hour a night for a week isn't the same as playing for 7 hours in one sitting, even though it's the same amount of time. Typically in P2P games, end-game content takes a very large chunk of contiguous time to complete, not broken up in parts. Even WoW is this way and it's considered a "casual friendly" game. You still have to raid for 4+ hours in a sitting to get the best gear. Maybe FFXIV will be different... maybe.
Okay... I'm wrong in *one* example... Runes of Magic.
I'm right in about 7 others that I've played personally and spoken to more experienced players.
I can live with that.
My point still stands.
In *many* MMO with microtransactions, how well or competitively you are capable of playing is going to cost you money at some point and seldom have an in-game alternative.
In a subscription-based MMO, you pay the same monthly sub as everyone else and can be as successful as the game allows... by playing the game.
Again... we can disagree on this all day long. In the end, I'm glad SE went with what I feel to be the better option of the two.
As for how demanding end-game content is and how much time it takes to complete, etc... That's your own limitation. I've met many people who fall into this category, but I'll give you one example...
A friend of mine is married with a child and holds down a full-time job. His gameplay time is very limited and has been for as long as FFXI has been out.
Regardless... he's completed more in the game than I have, and I'm single and, outside of work, have all the time in the world.
He completed all of Chains of Promathia - before they made it easier...
He completed all of the original storyline.
He completed all of Zilart.
He's gotten 3 jobs to 75
He's gotten full relic sets on all 3 jobs.
He's leveled a main craft to 100 and a few others to 60.
He's successfully camped several NMs and got their drops.
... and a bunch of other stuff.
He did this on very limited time.
Did it take him longer to achieve it? Sure. But he did it.
If you set your expectations to be realistic given the free time you have, nothing takes "too much time" to do.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
In one in particular, I was told, in no uncertain terms by 3 other players in a guild I joined: "If you don't plan to spend at least $30 a month on xp potions, and HP/MP regens, then plan on being steamrolled in PvP". Some of them spend considerably more than that.
For those who would say "but you don't have to PvP"... A: What if I want to? B: The PvE side was pretty much the same, only for different reasons.
In a subscription based game, leveling is based on how quickly the player wants to, and is capable of, leveling... And they have to go through it, just like anyone else. There is no "spend money and level faster" option. Getting those good items is a matter of overcoming the same challenges as everyone else who has it; there is no "buy now" button. Everyone has the same content to contend with... everyone's on a level playing field.
Funny, I was told something similar by a raiding guild in WoW. If I didn't have 4+ hours for 3 nights a week to devote to raiding then I wouldn't be able to do the more difficult instances with them. I wasn't on the same playing field as the guys who had no life and were in game every night of the week. Eventually they all out-geared me and I had to leave the guild, not because they were elitists, but because they advanced faster than me and they stopped doing the instances I was geared to do (charity case: {no thanks}).
In PvP, I was a joke compared to the guys with the high-end PvP gear which I had no hope of acquiring because it just took more time than I had to play. Sure I eventually could catch up, but by that time new gear was released that was even better and I was still way behind the curve.
In one in particular, I was told, in no uncertain terms by 3 other players in a guild I joined: "If you don't plan to spend at least $30 a month on xp potions, and HP/MP regens, then plan on being steamrolled in PvP". Some of them spend considerably more than that. For those who would say "but you don't have to PvP"...
A: What if I want to?
B: The PvE side was pretty much the same, only for different reasons. In a subscription based game, leveling is based on how quickly the player wants to, and is capable of, leveling... And they have to go through it, just like anyone else. There is no "spend money and level faster" option. Getting those good items is a matter of overcoming the same challenges as everyone else who has it; there is no "buy now" button. Everyone has the same content to contend with... everyone's on a level playing field.
Funny, I was told something similar by a raiding guild in WoW. If I didn't have 4+ hours for 3 nights a week to devote to raiding then I wouldn't be able to do the more difficult instances with them. I wasn't on the same playing field as the guys who had no life and were in game every night of the week. Eventually they all out-geared me and I had to leave the guild, not because they were elitists, but because they advanced faster than me and they stopped doing the instances I was geared to do (charity case: {no thanks}).
In PvP, I was a joke compared to the guys with the high-end PvP gear which I had no hope of acquiring because it just took more time than I had to play. Sure I eventually could catch up, but by that time new gear was released that was even better and I was still way behind the curve.
I edited my post above to include a bit that actually addresses this very well.
And it still holds true.
I have a friend who works 40+ hours a week, has a 2 hour trek to and from work by train.. is engaged to a woman who doesn't like him playing "too much"... He's leveled several characters to 70 (then 80), has completed all the raids and has all the top-tier equipment on at least 2 characters... including the final boss of Lich King.
How? He took the time he had to play and worked out how to best use it to achieve his goals. He joined a guild whose raiding schedule fit his... and just chipped away 'til he got to where he wanted to be.
He recently quit WoW for good and is now moving on to Aion where he will, undoubtedly, do just as well... on very limited time.
Again... If you set your expectations realistically, you can achive what you want.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Okay... I'm wrong in *one* example... Runes of Magic.
I'm right in about 7 others that I've played personally and spoken to more experienced players.
I can live with that. My point still stands. In *many* MMO with microtransactions, how well or competitively you are capable of playing is going to cost you money at some point and seldom have an in-game alternative.
In a subscription-based MMO, you pay the same monthly sub as everyone else and can be as successful as the game allows... by playing the game.
Again... we can disagree on this all day long. In the end, I'm glad SE went with what I feel to be the better option of the two. As for how demanding end-game content is and how much time it takes to complete, etc... That's your own limitation. I've met many people who fall into this category, but I'll give you one example... A friend of mine is married with a child and holds down a full-time job. His gameplay time is very limited and has been for as long as FFXI has been out.
Regardless... he's completed more in the game than I have, and I'm single and, outside of work, have all the time in the world. He completed all of Chains of Promathia - before they made it easier... He completed all of the original storyline. He completed all of Zilart. He's gotten 3 jobs to 75 He's gotten full relic sets on all 3 jobs. He's leveled a main craft to 100 and a few others to 60. He's successfully camped several NMs and got their drops. ... and a bunch of other stuff.
He did this on very limited time.
Did it take him longer to achieve it? Sure. But he did it.
If you set your expectations to be realistic given the free time you have, nothing takes "too much time" to do.
Well don't get me wrong, I don't think P2P is evil or anything and it's a model that works for some games. I'm just trying to point out that the micro-transaction games aren't evil either and it can work for other games. I did say I think FFXIV is better suited for the P2P model. Just don't write off F2P without seeing how it's evolved from the early days.
Anyway, nothing wrong with a good debate... thanks for keeping it civil (that's rare on these forums).
Okay... I'm wrong in *one* example... Runes of Magic. I'm right in about 7 others that I've played personally and spoken to more experienced players. I can live with that.
My point still stands.
In *many* MMO with microtransactions, how well or competitively you are capable of playing is going to cost you money at some point and seldom have an in-game alternative. In a subscription-based MMO, you pay the same monthly sub as everyone else and can be as successful as the game allows... by playing the game. Again... we can disagree on this all day long. In the end, I'm glad SE went with what I feel to be the better option of the two.
As for how demanding end-game content is and how much time it takes to complete, etc... That's your own limitation. I've met many people who fall into this category, but I'll give you one example...
A friend of mine is married with a child and holds down a full-time job. His gameplay time is very limited and has been for as long as FFXI has been out. Regardless... he's completed more in the game than I have, and I'm single and, outside of work, have all the time in the world.
He completed all of Chains of Promathia - before they made it easier...
He completed all of the original storyline.
He completed all of Zilart.
He's gotten 3 jobs to 75
He's gotten full relic sets on all 3 jobs.
He's leveled a main craft to 100 and a few others to 60.
He's successfully camped several NMs and got their drops.
... and a bunch of other stuff. He did this on very limited time. Did it take him longer to achieve it? Sure. But he did it. If you set your expectations to be realistic given the free time you have, nothing takes "too much time" to do.
Well don't get me wrong, I don't think P2P is evil or anything and it's a model that works for some games. I'm just trying to point out that the micro-transaction games aren't evil either and it can work for other games. I did say I think FFXIV is better suited for the P2P model. Just don't write off F2P without seeing how it's evolved from the early days.
Anyway, nothing wrong with a good debate... thanks for keeping it civil (that's rare on these forums).
Oh, I accept it, too. I just really, really don't like it. To me, it undermines a lot of what - to me - is the point of playing a game. That is, overcoming challenges to achieve or acquire something, while (ideally) enjoying a great world, with great storylines, etc.
I've played a few F2P MMOs that I *really* wished were P2P.
Here's a couple examples to maybe illustrate why I don't like it...
When I can level faster not because I've used my own knowledge of the game to do so, but because I bought a potion that gives me another 50%, then that's undermining the game. I'm only leveling faster because my credit card allows me to.
When I can survive an otherwise impossible battle at my level, not because of some superior knowledge of my class, or the behavior of the creature I'm fighting, but simply because a trinket I have that automatically refills my HP every few seconds allows me to out-last it... Then that undermines the game. I'm only beating that creature under those circumstances because my credit card allows me to.
And so on...
Now.. to take that a step higher... When the game throws things at you that make those items a necessity (again, which is the case in those I've looked into)... then that's the nail in the coffin.
In at least one F2P MMO I played, you were required to purchase a stack of items from the item mall so you could use the global chat channel. Each time you use the channel, one is removed from your stock. *That* is ridiculous. MMOs are social games by design.. and here's a game making you pay to be sociable. I had to purchase one just so I could ask a GM to contact me (apparently using the Global Chat is the only way to do it in that game).
To me, the point of a game is to *play*.. to overcome challenges in the game using only what the game provides. Taking it outside the game in the form of item-malls is a kind of "meta-gaming" to me. It really kills the whole point of playing to me.
And yes... good debate . Thank you, in kind, for keeping it spirited but civil.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Okay... I'm wrong in *one* example... Runes of Magic. I'm right in about 7 others that I've played personally and spoken to more experienced players. I can live with that.
My point still stands.
In *many* MMO with microtransactions, how well or competitively you are capable of playing is going to cost you money at some point and seldom have an in-game alternative. In a subscription-based MMO, you pay the same monthly sub as everyone else and can be as successful as the game allows... by playing the game. Again... we can disagree on this all day long. In the end, I'm glad SE went with what I feel to be the better option of the two.
As for how demanding end-game content is and how much time it takes to complete, etc... That's your own limitation. I've met many people who fall into this category, but I'll give you one example...
A friend of mine is married with a child and holds down a full-time job. His gameplay time is very limited and has been for as long as FFXI has been out. Regardless... he's completed more in the game than I have, and I'm single and, outside of work, have all the time in the world.
He completed all of Chains of Promathia - before they made it easier...
He completed all of the original storyline.
He completed all of Zilart.
He's gotten 3 jobs to 75
He's gotten full relic sets on all 3 jobs.
He's leveled a main craft to 100 and a few others to 60.
He's successfully camped several NMs and got their drops.
... and a bunch of other stuff. He did this on very limited time. Did it take him longer to achieve it? Sure. But he did it. If you set your expectations to be realistic given the free time you have, nothing takes "too much time" to do.
Well don't get me wrong, I don't think P2P is evil or anything and it's a model that works for some games. I'm just trying to point out that the micro-transaction games aren't evil either and it can work for other games. I did say I think FFXIV is better suited for the P2P model. Just don't write off F2P without seeing how it's evolved from the early days.
Anyway, nothing wrong with a good debate... thanks for keeping it civil (that's rare on these forums).
I agree with this too, my big issue between the two is that I'm looking for something different out of each system. and right now also there is no model that levels the playing field as much as P2P does so for the life and overall enjoyment of the main MMO i'd be playing I would want it to be P2P. I'm glad with what FFXIV did. I'm also glad at DDO switching to a F2P model with P2P options. I think those choices are better for a game late in its lifetime. For fresh games with people being really competitive about what they've done from the start I would only accept a purely cosmetic cash shop with no gameplay items. But this is where many will agree to disagree, and that's ok. P2P's may be dying out in the wake of the MT models, but I'm glad the next big game I'm looking for has it.
If you have good time management you win. If you let the game consume you, you lost. I had a full time job/school, and managed to set alarms in the middle of the night trying to get ahold of silly dragons, turtles, and behomoths to finish some of the hardest quests in the game.
I'm looking forward to playing with a new breed and genre of WoW transplants. I wonder how long they will last.
Cant say that I expected SE to do anything other than a monthly billing cycle.. Anniversary or what they have in FFXI doesnt really matter. Simple fact is microbilling is done by companies who make shit for game with no content no challenge and simple systems. Anygame company that is worth their weight doesn't do Microbilling. So I'm at a bit of a loss as to how this is some surprising turn of events by the subject..
Cant say that I expected SE to do anything other than a monthly billing cycle.. Anniversary or what they have in FFXI doesnt really matter. Simple fact is microbilling is done by companies who make shit for game with no content no challenge and simple systems. Anygame company that is worth their weight doesn't do Microbilling. So I'm at a bit of a loss as to how this is some surprising turn of events by the subject..
What did you think they would do?
You can't just put all those companies in the same basket, some of them are of actual good quality, maybe you just didn't fall on one yet.
Cant say that I expected SE to do anything other than a monthly billing cycle.. Anniversary or what they have in FFXI doesnt really matter. Simple fact is microbilling is done by companies who make shit for game with no content no challenge and simple systems. Anygame company that is worth their weight doesn't do Microbilling. So I'm at a bit of a loss as to how this is some surprising turn of events by the subject..
What did you think they would do?
In the past I would have agreed with you, but there are F2P games that are starting to emerge with P2P quality. RoM has been compared numerous times to some of the top P2P games. I personally like it better than many of the well known ones (such as Warhammer and Guild Wars). We're even starting to see F2P games rated above a lot of the P2P games on this site (for whatever that's worth). That's not to say they are the best or anything, but it does show us a trend toward higher quality F2P games.
Aside from all the points already mentioned in the way of cash overriding gameplay, and buyable items override game design, the reason I personally can't stand micro-transactions is because it's too easy to get carried away. If not for me, then the next guy, who takes gaming too seriously. There is a message when logging into Final Fantasy XI that reads something to the effect of "we do not wish to see your family, work, or school suffer". P2P regulates the amount a person spends on that game by being all-inclusive. F2P with buyable game components doesn't seem to share that concern even by limiting the amount of money a person spends.
I could easily dump $500 into one of those F2P games in a day, conquer it in a week, and save myself the "time sink" of P2P MMO's. But on the other hand, $500 invested in Final Fantasy XI at $15/mo is TWO YEARS worth of more enjoyable and rewarding gameplay. And nobody questions where that money came from if it's spent over the course of two years, but if you even have the option to drop $500 into a "F2P" game - how the HELL is that free to play? It ends up costing you MORE in the long run, and you only feel like a shitbag afterwards because you know that money could have gone to something better.
If a person becomes so enamoured with a video game that they're spending their rent money, their grocery money, their education money, etc. not only does that person have a problem but the game company doesn't have a problem allowing it either. It's bad enough people already let these games consume them. Adults have pummeled kids, parents have left babies unattended to pass away. That shit actually happens, and whether or not those people should be allowed to exist isn't the question. They fact is that they do. The question is "what does a F2P game companies provide for its gamers?" F2P companies can push out a plethora of craptacular games. They make oodles of money on those microtransactions. I doubt they care about gamers in the slightest. The quality of games has only improved to stay in the market to compete. The ones that are truly F2P WITHOUT micro-fees are fine. The P2P games are generally fine too until RMT is allowed or ignored (same principles).
You bought the computer that meets the minimum requirements. You bought the game. You're paying for monthly internet. You're paying for the monthly subscription fee. Group your internet and subscription and it's hardly a noticeable bill. I seriously don't understand why people gripe about fees. If you're truly that broke you shouldn't worry about games at all, let alone MMO's. No game is more than ~$15 to play, and for reliable high-speed internet you're looking at something like $50. In all likelihood unless you live by yourself that bill is either fully payed for or divided. I'm one of those people who lives by myself (for now) and I don't really notice $50 from $65. My internet and FFXI subscription go hand & hand.
Who doesn't spend $100/mo on lesser important stuff? I SAVE more money by playing P2P MMO's, not because I have no life, but because I have something to do rather than being idle. I could blow $100 a night at a strip club, but for how long? I know that the game is at home waiting for me, a game I WANT to play, that I enjoy playing, with people I enjoy playing with. That $15/mo for a game subscription saves people money. That "time sink" saves people money. It also helps them relax. If they don't know how to take things in stride, as I've said before, these games aren't for everyone...
Aside from all the points already mentioned in the way of cash overriding gameplay, and buyable items override game design, the reason I personally can't stand micro-transactions is because it's too easy to get carried away. If not for me, then the next guy, who takes gaming too seriously. There is a message when logging into Final Fantasy XI that reads something to the effect of "we do not wish to see your family, work, or school suffer". P2P regulates the amount a person spends on that game by being all-inclusive. F2P with buyable game components doesn't seem to share that concern even by limiting the amount of money a person spends. I could easily dump $500 into one of those F2P games in a day, conquer it in a week, and save myself the "time sink" of P2P MMO's. But on the other hand, $500 invested in Final Fantasy XI at $15/mo is TWO YEARS worth of more enjoyable and rewarding gameplay. And nobody questions where that money came from if it's spent over the course of two years, but if you even have the option to drop $500 into a "F2P" game - how the HELL is that free to play? It ends up costing you MORE in the long run, and you only feel like a shitbag afterwards because you know that money could have gone to something better. If a person becomes so enamoured with a video game that they're spending their rent money, their grocery money, their education money, etc. not only does that person have a problem but the game company doesn't have a problem allowing it either. It's bad enough people already let these games consume them. Adults have pummeled kids, parents have left babies unattended to pass away. That shit actually happens, and whether or not those people should be allowed to exist isn't the question. They fact is that they do. The question is "what does a F2P game companies provide for its gamers?" F2P companies can push out a plethora of craptacular games. They make oodles of money on those microtransactions. I doubt they care about gamers in the slightest. The quality of games has only improved to stay in the market to compete. The ones that are truly F2P WITHOUT micro-fees are fine. The P2P games are generally fine too until RMT is allowed or ignored (same principles). You bought the computer that meets the minimum requirements. You bought the game. You're paying for monthly internet. You're paying for the monthly subscription fee. Group your internet and subscription and it's hardly a noticeable bill. I seriously don't understand why people gripe about fees. If you're truly that broke you shouldn't worry about games at all, let alone MMO's. No game is more than ~$15 to play, and for reliable high-speed internet you're looking at something like $50. In all likelihood unless you live by yourself that bill is either fully payed for or divided. I'm one of those people who lives by myself (for now) and I don't really notice $50 from $65. My internet and FFXI subscription go hand & hand. Who doesn't spend $100/mo on lesser important stuff? I SAVE more money by playing P2P MMO's, not because I have no life, but because I have something to do rather than being idle. I could blow $100 a night at a strip club, but for how long? I know that the game is at home waiting for me, a game I WANT to play, that I enjoy playing, with people I enjoy playing with. That $15/mo for a game subscription saves people money. That "time sink" saves people money. It also helps them relax. If they don't know how to take things in stride, as I've said before, these games aren't for everyone...
You make some good points. However, I have a feeling if you were in a situation, like myself, where your whole household (me+wife+kids) enjoys MMORPG's and all love playing together, then it's the P2P model that's outrageously expensive. With FFXIV coming, I'm looking at a possible $200 to $250 cost up front before we even get to play 1 minute of the game, and then it's $75 per month after the first 30 days. Whereas a F2P game would be $0 for us to try and then spend whatever we feel like spending thereafter. Don't judge the cost of F2P games based on people who have issues resisting the temptation to spend money... that's not the fault of the game. The vast majority of F2P players spend very little on the game.
Comments
Well you've got nothing to lose by trying it
RoM doesn't force you to use the item mall by any means. Sure there's a very high level of temptation to use it but there's no requirement in order to keep playing. RoM does have PvP severs, and obviously the guy that spends the most money wins, but I stick to the PvE servers so it's not an issue for me. Many of the things on the item mall can be acquired using in-game currency (gold or tokens), it just takes longer. And if you wanted to, you can even buy the item mall currency (diamonds) with game gold from people selling them on the Auction House (granted they are expensive). So really it's just a matter of whether you want to put in more time and do things for free, or pay money and spend less time.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
The anniversary date of when you signed up; the way it works for most MMOs. If you sign up on the 25th of this month, you're charged on the 25th of each month thereafter.
Ditching POL helped with this. I think I read somewhere they might even do something along the lines of play a week cancel and only be billed for a week. Not sure if thats how it works but it s smart IMO. I can t tell you how many times I wanted to try games again without a trial, or wanted to play my highest level only to have to pay a month and leave within a week. Also would be great for people going on holidays etc.
The anniversary date of when you signed up; the way it works for most MMOs. If you sign up on the 25th of this month, you're charged on the 25th of each month thereafter.
Ditching POL helped with this. I think I read somewhere they might even do something along the lines of play a week cancel and only be billed for a week. Not sure if thats how it works but it s smart IMO. I can t tell you how many times I wanted to try games again without a trial, or wanted to play my highest level only to have to pay a month and leave within a week. Also would be great for people going on holidays etc.
Ahh, so they'll be pro-rating payments as well. Good move. That's another problem with the setup for FFXI - which has been described here - they never pro-rate.
So that's def. a step in the right direction.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
It is good to still see companies doing the sub and nothing but the sub method. I don't and won't play microtransaction games. And I definetly won't play a game that has you pay a sub and then has microtransactions on top of it. I'm tired of companies trying to incorporate the item mall method. I don't want to buy my way to the top and I also don't want to have to buy bonus xp potions and weapons with real life money.
I know there are people who want a game to use microtransactions because they plan on never buying anything and playing the game for free. However you lose a lot of the gameplay when you take that aproach. But just like Mike I'm not surprised so many companies are trying it when you see how many idiots keep buying gold from companies because they're too lazy to play the game. Item malls are exactly what those people want.
I hadn't been following final fantasy but I will start taking a look at the game now.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
You know you won't get ripped off by ffxiv
Perhaps, i agree that it would be very nice if we could get the game for free and pay a monhtly sub to get to try it out for $15. Or maybe they could sell the game like $40 and include 30 days free, thats $25 for the game which isn't that bad. But anyway, even if it's $70 i'll buy it when it comes out hehe
That's really no different than the basement-dweller who has more time to play in a P2P game vs. the guy who works 50+ hours a week and maybe gets to login for 30 minutes a night. It's an uneven playing field. The basement dweller can get all of the top gear because he wastes his life away in the game whereas the RL working casual guy probably never will get the top gear. The micro-transaction model somewhat reverses this role. The RL hard working guy now can get the top gear whereas the no-job basement dweller probably never will. It's just a matter of perspective.
Also, just to correct one point of yours... from my experience, the micro-transaction games don't offer items, but rather upgrades to existing items. So you still have to put in the time to do the game content to get the item you want to upgrade. So it's not as simple as opening your wallet and you're instantly a god.
You know you won't get ripped off by ffxiv
Perhaps, i agree that it would be very nice if we could get the game for free and pay a monhtly sub to get to try it out for $15. Or maybe they could sell the game like $40 and include 30 days free, thats $25 for the game which isn't that bad. But anyway, even if it's $70 i'll buy it when it comes out hehe
Actually, including the first 30 days with the initial purchase is pretty standard for MMOs.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
You know you won't get ripped off by ffxiv
Perhaps, i agree that it would be very nice if we could get the game for free and pay a monhtly sub to get to try it out for $15. Or maybe they could sell the game like $40 and include 30 days free, thats $25 for the game which isn't that bad. But anyway, even if it's $70 i'll buy it when it comes out hehe
I agree, I don't expect to get ripped off by FFXIV, but I didn't expect to get ripped off by Warhammer either (considering what a great job they did with DAoC).
That's really no different than the basement-dweller who has more time to play in a P2P game vs. the guy who works 50+ hours a week and maybe gets to login for 30 minutes a night. It's an uneven playing field. The basement dweller can get all of the top gear because he wastes his life away in the game whereas the RL working casual guy probably never will get the top gear. The micro-transaction model somewhat reverses this role. The RL hard working guy now can get the top gear whereas the no-job basement dweller probably never will. It's just a matter of perspective.
Also, just to correct one point of yours... from my experience, the micro-transaction games don't offer items, but rather upgrades to existing items. So you still have to put in the time to do the game content to get the item you want to upgrade. So it's not as simple as opening your wallet and you're instantly a god.
Nonsense.
The person with more time has no less to do in the game to acquire a given item than the person with less time. The gameplay is even for all involved, for the same subscription fee.
The control in a subscription-based game is anchored in the gameplay. Whether it takes someone an hour or a day to achieve the same goal, they were able to do it within the context of the game, by completing the same challenge, for the same sub fee as everyone else. Players can help each other achieve that goal. Players can compete against each other for for that goal. Players can attempt to achieve it by themself, at their own pace... There may be multiple ways to go about achieving the goal... etc. etc. Whether that goal be a certain achievement, or obtaining a certain item, again, everything is anchored in the gameplay, where it should be.
In a microtransaction setup, that control is taken out of the game and placed in a given person's wallet. Gameplay is completely removed from the equation and if someone doesn't have the funds to afford a given item, there's nothing they can do about it. There's no other option for them to acquire it... unless it's also available via in-game means.. which is, again, a problem in itself.
As for being a god... No.. you're not a god, but that's also a disingenuous way to characterize it. It has nothing to do with being a "god", it has to do with being competitive at the end-game. I've played several of those F2P/Item Mall games and having spoken to people who've been playing a long time, it all comes down to the same thing... You can play the game very casually if you wish without paying a dime. But if you want to be competitive and keep up with others in the game - especially end-game - you are going to be dumping money into the item malls. These are people who play and enjoy the game enough to spend the money... They also acknowledge it for what it is.
In one in particular, I was told, in no uncertain terms by 3 other players in a guild I joined: "If you don't plan to spend at least $30 a month on xp potions, and HP/MP regens, then plan on being steamrolled in PvP". Some of them spend considerably more than that.
For those who would say "but you don't have to PvP"...
A: What if I want to?
B: The PvE side was pretty much the same, only for different reasons.
In a subscription based game, leveling is based on how quickly the player wants to, and is capable of, leveling... And they have to go through it, just like anyone else. There is no "spend money and level faster" option. Getting those good items is a matter of overcoming the same challenges as everyone else who has it; there is no "buy now" button. Everyone has the same content to contend with... everyone's on a level playing field.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
That's really no different than the basement-dweller who has more time to play in a P2P game vs. the guy who works 50+ hours a week and maybe gets to login for 30 minutes a night. It's an uneven playing field. The basement dweller can get all of the top gear because he wastes his life away in the game whereas the RL working casual guy probably never will get the top gear. The micro-transaction model somewhat reverses this role. The RL hard working guy now can get the top gear whereas the no-job basement dweller probably never will. It's just a matter of perspective.
Also, just to correct one point of yours... from my experience, the micro-transaction games don't offer items, but rather upgrades to existing items. So you still have to put in the time to do the game content to get the item you want to upgrade. So it's not as simple as opening your wallet and you're instantly a god.
Nonsense.
The person with more time has no less to do in the game to acquire a given item than the person with less time. The gameplay is even for all involved, for the same amount of money.
The control in a subscription-based game is anchored in the gameplay. Whether it takes someone an hour or a day to achieve the same goal, they were able to do it within the context of the game, by completing the same challenge, for the same sub fee as everyone else. Players can help each other acquire that item. Players can compete against each other for that item. Players can attempt to acquire it by themself, at their own pace... etc. etc. Again, everything is anchored in the gameplay, where it should be.
In a microtransaction setup, that control is taken out of the game and placed in a given person's wallet. Gameplay is completely removed from the equation and if someone doesn't have the funds to afford a given item, there's nothing they can do about it. There's no other option for them to acquire it... unless it's also available via in-game means.. which is, again, a problem in itself.
As for being a god... No.. you're not a god, but that's also a disingenuous way to characterize it. It has nothing to do with being a "god", it has to do with being competitive at the end-game. I've played several of those F2P/Item Mall games and having spoken to people who've been playing a long time, it all comes down to the same thing... You can play the game very casually if you wish without paying a dime. But if you want to be competitive and keep up with others in the game - especially end-game - you are going to be dumping money into the item malls. These are people who play and enjoy the game enough to spend the money... They also acknowledge it for what it is.
I'm sorry but you're wrong. At least in the case of RoM. I can achieve EXACTLY the same level of uberness as the guy who buys everything there is on the cash shop, it just takes me longer. As much as I'd like for P2P games to give me (as a very casual player) the same opportunity to get the top items as the harcore player, it's just not reality. Sitting down and playing for an hour a night for a week isn't the same as playing for 7 hours in one sitting, even though it's the same amount of time. Typically in P2P games, end-game content takes a very large chunk of contiguous time to complete, not broken up in parts. Even WoW is this way and it's considered a "casual friendly" game. You still have to raid for 4+ hours in a sitting to get the best gear. Maybe FFXIV will be different... maybe.
That's really no different than the basement-dweller who has more time to play in a P2P game vs. the guy who works 50+ hours a week and maybe gets to login for 30 minutes a night. It's an uneven playing field. The basement dweller can get all of the top gear because he wastes his life away in the game whereas the RL working casual guy probably never will get the top gear. The micro-transaction model somewhat reverses this role. The RL hard working guy now can get the top gear whereas the no-job basement dweller probably never will. It's just a matter of perspective.
Also, just to correct one point of yours... from my experience, the micro-transaction games don't offer items, but rather upgrades to existing items. So you still have to put in the time to do the game content to get the item you want to upgrade. So it's not as simple as opening your wallet and you're instantly a god.
Nonsense.
The person with more time has no less to do in the game to acquire a given item than the person with less time. The gameplay is even for all involved, for the same amount of money.
The control in a subscription-based game is anchored in the gameplay. Whether it takes someone an hour or a day to achieve the same goal, they were able to do it within the context of the game, by completing the same challenge, for the same sub fee as everyone else. Players can help each other acquire that item. Players can compete against each other for that item. Players can attempt to acquire it by themself, at their own pace... etc. etc. Again, everything is anchored in the gameplay, where it should be.
In a microtransaction setup, that control is taken out of the game and placed in a given person's wallet. Gameplay is completely removed from the equation and if someone doesn't have the funds to afford a given item, there's nothing they can do about it. There's no other option for them to acquire it... unless it's also available via in-game means.. which is, again, a problem in itself.
As for being a god... No.. you're not a god, but that's also a disingenuous way to characterize it. It has nothing to do with being a "god", it has to do with being competitive at the end-game. I've played several of those F2P/Item Mall games and having spoken to people who've been playing a long time, it all comes down to the same thing... You can play the game very casually if you wish without paying a dime. But if you want to be competitive and keep up with others in the game - especially end-game - you are going to be dumping money into the item malls. These are people who play and enjoy the game enough to spend the money... They also acknowledge it for what it is.
I'm sorry but you're wrong. At least in the case of RoM. I can achieve EXACTLY the same level of uberness as the guy who buys everything there is on the cash shop, it just takes me longer. As much as I'd like for P2P games to give me (as a very casual player) the same opportunity to get the top items as the harcore player, it's just not reality. Sitting down and playing for an hour a night for a week isn't the same as playing for 7 hours in one sitting, even though it's the same amount of time. Typically in P2P games, end-game content takes a very large chunk of contiguous time to complete, not broken up in parts. Even WoW is this way and it's considered a "casual friendly" game. You still have to raid for 4+ hours in a sitting to get the best gear. Maybe FFXIV will be different... maybe.
Okay... I'm wrong in *one* example... Runes of Magic.
I'm right in about 7 others that I've played personally and spoken to more experienced players.
I can live with that.
My point still stands.
In *many* MMO with microtransactions, how well or competitively you are capable of playing is going to cost you money at some point and seldom have an in-game alternative.
In a subscription-based MMO, you pay the same monthly sub as everyone else and can be as successful as the game allows... by playing the game.
Again... we can disagree on this all day long. In the end, I'm glad SE went with what I feel to be the better option of the two.
As for how demanding end-game content is and how much time it takes to complete, etc... That's your own limitation. I've met many people who fall into this category, but I'll give you one example...
A friend of mine is married with a child and holds down a full-time job. His gameplay time is very limited and has been for as long as FFXI has been out.
Regardless... he's completed more in the game than I have, and I'm single and, outside of work, have all the time in the world.
He completed all of Chains of Promathia - before they made it easier...
He completed all of the original storyline.
He completed all of Zilart.
He's gotten 3 jobs to 75
He's gotten full relic sets on all 3 jobs.
He's leveled a main craft to 100 and a few others to 60.
He's successfully camped several NMs and got their drops.
... and a bunch of other stuff.
He did this on very limited time.
Did it take him longer to achieve it? Sure. But he did it.
If you set your expectations to be realistic given the free time you have, nothing takes "too much time" to do.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Funny, I was told something similar by a raiding guild in WoW. If I didn't have 4+ hours for 3 nights a week to devote to raiding then I wouldn't be able to do the more difficult instances with them. I wasn't on the same playing field as the guys who had no life and were in game every night of the week. Eventually they all out-geared me and I had to leave the guild, not because they were elitists, but because they advanced faster than me and they stopped doing the instances I was geared to do (charity case: {no thanks}).
In PvP, I was a joke compared to the guys with the high-end PvP gear which I had no hope of acquiring because it just took more time than I had to play. Sure I eventually could catch up, but by that time new gear was released that was even better and I was still way behind the curve.
Funny, I was told something similar by a raiding guild in WoW. If I didn't have 4+ hours for 3 nights a week to devote to raiding then I wouldn't be able to do the more difficult instances with them. I wasn't on the same playing field as the guys who had no life and were in game every night of the week. Eventually they all out-geared me and I had to leave the guild, not because they were elitists, but because they advanced faster than me and they stopped doing the instances I was geared to do (charity case: {no thanks}).
In PvP, I was a joke compared to the guys with the high-end PvP gear which I had no hope of acquiring because it just took more time than I had to play. Sure I eventually could catch up, but by that time new gear was released that was even better and I was still way behind the curve.
I edited my post above to include a bit that actually addresses this very well.
And it still holds true.
I have a friend who works 40+ hours a week, has a 2 hour trek to and from work by train.. is engaged to a woman who doesn't like him playing "too much"... He's leveled several characters to 70 (then 80), has completed all the raids and has all the top-tier equipment on at least 2 characters... including the final boss of Lich King.
How? He took the time he had to play and worked out how to best use it to achieve his goals. He joined a guild whose raiding schedule fit his... and just chipped away 'til he got to where he wanted to be.
He recently quit WoW for good and is now moving on to Aion where he will, undoubtedly, do just as well... on very limited time.
Again... If you set your expectations realistically, you can achive what you want.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Well don't get me wrong, I don't think P2P is evil or anything and it's a model that works for some games. I'm just trying to point out that the micro-transaction games aren't evil either and it can work for other games. I did say I think FFXIV is better suited for the P2P model. Just don't write off F2P without seeing how it's evolved from the early days.
Anyway, nothing wrong with a good debate... thanks for keeping it civil (that's rare on these forums).
Well don't get me wrong, I don't think P2P is evil or anything and it's a model that works for some games. I'm just trying to point out that the micro-transaction games aren't evil either and it can work for other games. I did say I think FFXIV is better suited for the P2P model. Just don't write off F2P without seeing how it's evolved from the early days.
Anyway, nothing wrong with a good debate... thanks for keeping it civil (that's rare on these forums).
Oh, I accept it, too. I just really, really don't like it. To me, it undermines a lot of what - to me - is the point of playing a game. That is, overcoming challenges to achieve or acquire something, while (ideally) enjoying a great world, with great storylines, etc.
I've played a few F2P MMOs that I *really* wished were P2P.
Here's a couple examples to maybe illustrate why I don't like it...
When I can level faster not because I've used my own knowledge of the game to do so, but because I bought a potion that gives me another 50%, then that's undermining the game. I'm only leveling faster because my credit card allows me to.
When I can survive an otherwise impossible battle at my level, not because of some superior knowledge of my class, or the behavior of the creature I'm fighting, but simply because a trinket I have that automatically refills my HP every few seconds allows me to out-last it... Then that undermines the game. I'm only beating that creature under those circumstances because my credit card allows me to.
And so on...
Now.. to take that a step higher... When the game throws things at you that make those items a necessity (again, which is the case in those I've looked into)... then that's the nail in the coffin.
In at least one F2P MMO I played, you were required to purchase a stack of items from the item mall so you could use the global chat channel. Each time you use the channel, one is removed from your stock. *That* is ridiculous. MMOs are social games by design.. and here's a game making you pay to be sociable. I had to purchase one just so I could ask a GM to contact me (apparently using the Global Chat is the only way to do it in that game).
To me, the point of a game is to *play*.. to overcome challenges in the game using only what the game provides. Taking it outside the game in the form of item-malls is a kind of "meta-gaming" to me. It really kills the whole point of playing to me.
And yes... good debate
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Well don't get me wrong, I don't think P2P is evil or anything and it's a model that works for some games. I'm just trying to point out that the micro-transaction games aren't evil either and it can work for other games. I did say I think FFXIV is better suited for the P2P model. Just don't write off F2P without seeing how it's evolved from the early days.
Anyway, nothing wrong with a good debate... thanks for keeping it civil (that's rare on these forums).
I agree with this too, my big issue between the two is that I'm looking for something different out of each system. and right now also there is no model that levels the playing field as much as P2P does so for the life and overall enjoyment of the main MMO i'd be playing I would want it to be P2P. I'm glad with what FFXIV did. I'm also glad at DDO switching to a F2P model with P2P options. I think those choices are better for a game late in its lifetime. For fresh games with people being really competitive about what they've done from the start I would only accept a purely cosmetic cash shop with no gameplay items. But this is where many will agree to disagree, and that's ok. P2P's may be dying out in the wake of the MT models, but I'm glad the next big game I'm looking for has it.
I like how the arguments came out, both sides explain very valid points that i agree on with, keep it up!
mmo's are a time sink.
If you have good time management you win. If you let the game consume you, you lost. I had a full time job/school, and managed to set alarms in the middle of the night trying to get ahold of silly dragons, turtles, and behomoths to finish some of the hardest quests in the game.
I'm looking forward to playing with a new breed and genre of WoW transplants. I wonder how long they will last.
Cant say that I expected SE to do anything other than a monthly billing cycle.. Anniversary or what they have in FFXI doesnt really matter. Simple fact is microbilling is done by companies who make shit for game with no content no challenge and simple systems. Anygame company that is worth their weight doesn't do Microbilling. So I'm at a bit of a loss as to how this is some surprising turn of events by the subject..
What did you think they would do?
You can't just put all those companies in the same basket, some of them are of actual good quality, maybe you just didn't fall on one yet.
In the past I would have agreed with you, but there are F2P games that are starting to emerge with P2P quality. RoM has been compared numerous times to some of the top P2P games. I personally like it better than many of the well known ones (such as Warhammer and Guild Wars). We're even starting to see F2P games rated above a lot of the P2P games on this site (for whatever that's worth). That's not to say they are the best or anything, but it does show us a trend toward higher quality F2P games.
Aside from all the points already mentioned in the way of cash overriding gameplay, and buyable items override game design, the reason I personally can't stand micro-transactions is because it's too easy to get carried away. If not for me, then the next guy, who takes gaming too seriously. There is a message when logging into Final Fantasy XI that reads something to the effect of "we do not wish to see your family, work, or school suffer". P2P regulates the amount a person spends on that game by being all-inclusive. F2P with buyable game components doesn't seem to share that concern even by limiting the amount of money a person spends.
I could easily dump $500 into one of those F2P games in a day, conquer it in a week, and save myself the "time sink" of P2P MMO's. But on the other hand, $500 invested in Final Fantasy XI at $15/mo is TWO YEARS worth of more enjoyable and rewarding gameplay. And nobody questions where that money came from if it's spent over the course of two years, but if you even have the option to drop $500 into a "F2P" game - how the HELL is that free to play? It ends up costing you MORE in the long run, and you only feel like a shitbag afterwards because you know that money could have gone to something better.
If a person becomes so enamoured with a video game that they're spending their rent money, their grocery money, their education money, etc. not only does that person have a problem but the game company doesn't have a problem allowing it either. It's bad enough people already let these games consume them. Adults have pummeled kids, parents have left babies unattended to pass away. That shit actually happens, and whether or not those people should be allowed to exist isn't the question. They fact is that they do. The question is "what does a F2P game companies provide for its gamers?" F2P companies can push out a plethora of craptacular games. They make oodles of money on those microtransactions. I doubt they care about gamers in the slightest. The quality of games has only improved to stay in the market to compete. The ones that are truly F2P WITHOUT micro-fees are fine. The P2P games are generally fine too until RMT is allowed or ignored (same principles).
You bought the computer that meets the minimum requirements. You bought the game. You're paying for monthly internet. You're paying for the monthly subscription fee. Group your internet and subscription and it's hardly a noticeable bill. I seriously don't understand why people gripe about fees. If you're truly that broke you shouldn't worry about games at all, let alone MMO's. No game is more than ~$15 to play, and for reliable high-speed internet you're looking at something like $50. In all likelihood unless you live by yourself that bill is either fully payed for or divided. I'm one of those people who lives by myself (for now) and I don't really notice $50 from $65. My internet and FFXI subscription go hand & hand.
Who doesn't spend $100/mo on lesser important stuff? I SAVE more money by playing P2P MMO's, not because I have no life, but because I have something to do rather than being idle. I could blow $100 a night at a strip club, but for how long? I know that the game is at home waiting for me, a game I WANT to play, that I enjoy playing, with people I enjoy playing with. That $15/mo for a game subscription saves people money. That "time sink" saves people money. It also helps them relax. If they don't know how to take things in stride, as I've said before, these games aren't for everyone...
Abraxas [365]
You make some good points. However, I have a feeling if you were in a situation, like myself, where your whole household (me+wife+kids) enjoys MMORPG's and all love playing together, then it's the P2P model that's outrageously expensive. With FFXIV coming, I'm looking at a possible $200 to $250 cost up front before we even get to play 1 minute of the game, and then it's $75 per month after the first 30 days. Whereas a F2P game would be $0 for us to try and then spend whatever we feel like spending thereafter. Don't judge the cost of F2P games based on people who have issues resisting the temptation to spend money... that's not the fault of the game. The vast majority of F2P players spend very little on the game.