I think it's because they have no idea how to design one!
Most MMO designs we are seeing are the level progression type. That is their comfort zone.
This stems back to the days of D&D (The pen and paper version). That's the model most of them are working from.
And really, that's easy for them because they all have that original template to fall back on. Many of them probably don't even understand why that game was a success or even the design behind it. It's also not something they could have thought of themselves in a million years. But it worked, so they try to emulate it. When they get lost they fall back on the basic design principles in it.
You kill stuff - you get loot and XP.
You level up.
Your stats go up.
You get better gear.
You can now face tougher monsters with more (and better) loot. These monsters are also worth more XP.
Rinse and repeat.
But where it falls apart is when they start running out of 'levels' - at endgame.
There are really only two solutions
1) the TSR approach. Add more levels! This is what WoW does.
2) Sandbox and endgame content that is sustainable.
And how many games are even close to achieving #2?
Not many - and those that have achieved it may not even be clear on why.
I would pick that of all the MMO designers out there there are probably only a dozen (or less) who would have the faintest idea how to even start designing a sandbox game.
The simple reason is because a sandbox games take a lot more time to develope to do it correctly. Instead of balancing several classes you would have to balance hundreds of different skills and combinations. Plus mmo developers are trying to draw in the single player console crowd which are much more familiar and comfortable with classes.
A sandbox game could easily mimic a theme park game. If you were to take UO throw in difficulty rated quest/missions it wouldn't be that different from wow. Based on the quests difficulty you would be sent to x to kill y and/or gather z. There you go content that people need.
It is sad the only skill based games we are getting are ffa pvp ones (UO was so much more then a pvp game) or sci fi ones. I don't dislike sci fi I just find fantasy more enjoyable.
WoW brought a ton of RTS gaming folks into the MMO genre. ***severe opinion incoming*** Most of the RTS crowd like quick gameplay that isn't too involved and one in which they can "win". "Winning" and/or end-game wasn't an idea associated with MMOs prior to this.***
Which MMOs were you playing because EQ and DAOC were all about endg-game. DAOC certainly was NEVER about the journey to get to RvR. It was about getting to RvR as fast as humanly possible in order to get to the good parts...ENDGAME. And lets face it. EQ was all about min/maxing your EXP to level as fast as possible in order to get to the good parts....RAIDS. This of course pre-dates WOW.
WOW didnt' introduce Winning. Gamers always want to win. Last time I checked the point of 99% of games is to win. In MMOs, winning is whatever goals you choose to obtain. Winning for some is very different from winning for others. WOW didn't change anything. It just brought more people in.
Originally posted by Fkinglinux I don't quite understand it myself, there is a fairly large niche of players who want a skill oriented sandbox style game. Yet, all the major titles in this department are from small developers. I mean this formula is tried and tested, some of the first 2 mmos , Asherons Call and Ultima Online were both classless and pretty sandboxy, also both are still alive, and maybe even kicking. Why won't any of the bigger name MMO developers take on this challenge, instead of leaving our hopes in the hands of games such as Mortal Online and Darkfall?(Not saying there is anything wrong with those games).
Tried, tested, and failed. AC and UO are still alive, but MMORPGs built on the current model racked up much bigger numbers. WoW is the epitome of the current class and racked up unbelievable numbers. As far as the suits are concerned, a classless sandbox is a way to make less money. They aren't interested.
Best sandbox type game I've seen (at least this year) is probably Ryzom. But Ryzom is not new and I'm assuming much of the MMO population either does not know about it or is simply not interested. Everything that everyone says should be in a sandbox is probably in Ryzom.
I'm thinking that maybe the posters that argue that a sandbox is not going to get the financial support it needs from investors are right. Even with that, most of us seem to agree that games like EVE are a success in their own right. They just aren't ever going to be "mass market" success. That doesn't mean we still can't enjoy what we have now. :-)
Well FFXIV has a very sandbox character progression system which trickles into harvesting and crafting so we will see how far they go with it. There is no PvP and i'm sure it will be a nice blend of sandbox and themepark elements. This is just an example, but some major devs will start expanding on the system once they see the 14th WoW clone fail miserably.
Best sandbox type game I've seen (at least this year) is probably Ryzom. But Ryzom is not new and I'm assuming much of the MMO population either does not know about it or is simply not interested. Everything that everyone says should be in a sandbox is probably in Ryzom.
Yup!
I wish more people tried the game, as it is the best avatar based sandbox.
Eve is the best sandbox game overall but it is spaceship based, so combat style is very different, which is a big factor. It is truly an amazing game.
I also found Anarchy Online to have pretty good sandbox aspects.
WoW brought a ton of RTS gaming folks into the MMO genre. ***severe opinion incoming*** Most of the RTS crowd like quick gameplay that isn't too involved and one in which they can "win". "Winning" and/or end-game wasn't an idea associated with MMOs prior to this.***
Which MMOs were you playing because EQ and DAOC were all about endg-game. DAOC certainly was NEVER about the journey to get to RvR. It was about getting to RvR as fast as humanly possible in order to get to the good parts...ENDGAME. And lets face it. EQ was all about min/maxing your EXP to level as fast as possible in order to get to the good parts....RAIDS. This of course pre-dates WOW.
WOW didnt' introduce Winning. Gamers always want to win. Last time I checked the point of 99% of games is to win. In MMOs, winning is whatever goals you choose to obtain. Winning for some is very different from winning for others. WOW didn't change anything. It just brought more people in.
Ultima Online and Asheron's Call, both of which had no "end game".
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
I think perhaps it's because the small developers have done it already, and they're not very successful at it. That's why the "big guys" don't want to try it.
Nah. Its because the masses dont really want it. It simply isn't profitable. Not to large name houses, not on the scale they operate.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
I think perhaps it's because the small developers have done it already, and they're not very successful at it. That's why the "big guys" don't want to try it.
Nah. Its because the masses dont really want it. It simply isn't profitable. Not to large name houses, not on the scale they operate.
I kinda thought about it and i think i would agree with you, great sandbox games like EVE, ryzom and many of the upcoming releases would never hit the 500k mark. They mostly would get around 50k-100k each maybe more depending on other things, but compared to what a company can easily make using the EQ formula with way less effort its kinda of a obvious choice for devs to make those. I really do hope though that we see alot more sandbox games being released in the future though.
Ultima Online and Asheron's Call, both of which had no "end game".
Also, those games were made during a time when the genre wasn't nearly as saturated with other games either. The masses have spoken and they prefer a game with clear goals and objectives (myself not included). If its one thing I realize even in life, the people that prefer to master their own fates, to think for themselves and set their own goals are few and far between. One day a company will acknowledge the sandbox crowd but most likely it will be an independent company with time on their hands that acknowledge that it takes time to bring quality (especially for sandboxes for reasons previously posted) and I hope I'm part of that company when the time comes.
EDIT: Also right now MMO is still fairly new to the general population and its safe to say that WoW has been and continues to introduce new types of gamers/people into the MMORPG realm. It'll be a matter of time where people will be able to differentiate between whats goods and bad in an MMO and what they want in an MMO and the extent of what MMO's can do (endless, how many people would actually acknowledge or think of this, they are still enjoying WoW).
Gonna start by sounding like a WoW fanboy, WoW is the most balanced game as far as PVP goes of the games ive tried which is far from all but have tried the major ones. And the amount of balancing they have to do with only 10 classes is alot, which company would really be stupid or brave enough to take on a classless MMO with like limitless "classes" or combinations of spells.
Just took WoW as an example here.
Not saying i dont want a sandbox classless MMO but just not likely its gonna happen and if it does it will most likely not be very balanced im afraid=(
Playing: CO, C&C and WoW. Played: Tabula Rasa, AoC, War, Aion. Regret Playing: Hellgate: London, EVE.
Maybe we are thinking inside the box a little too much. The truth is game companies are delivering what most people want and doing it in the simplest way. At its basest level that's what it's about. You want to look cool, you want to feel cool, you want to be recognized and you want to have some power. I think developers recognize this and cater to the players. The easiest way to do this right now is to follow a proven rule set which includes limitations like levels and classes. It makes it easy for them to predict players' behaviors and it makes it easy on most players to decide what they want to do in the game and how to do it. It makes them money and it keeps gamers happy for now. As the gaming population matures (yes it's time to move on from WoW) we should start seeing more and more sandbox-like features appear in games. I mean how long will people really be content competing to see who can pwn whom?
Maybe we are thinking inside the box a little too much. The truth is game companies are delivering what most people want and doing it in the simplest way. At its basest level that's what it's about. You want to look cool, you want to feel cool, you want to be recognized and you want to have some power. I think developers recognize this and cater to the players. The easiest way to do this right now is to follow a proven rule set which includes limitations like levels and classes. It makes it easy for them to predict players' behaviors and it makes it easy on most players to decide what they want to do in the game and how to do it. It makes them money and it keeps gamers happy for now. As the gaming population matures (yes it's time to move on from WoW) we should start seeing more and more sandbox-like features appear in games. I mean how long will people really be content competing to see who can pwn whom?
Well, by that reasoning wouldn't they just continue making the easy games for the less mature gamers? If anything WoW has proven that they grow every year. So that group isn't out growing WoW. That or they are and stoppping playing MMOs?
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
I don't quite understand it myself, there is a fairly large niche of players who want a skill oriented sandbox style game. Yet, all the major titles in this department are from small developers. I mean this formula is tried and tested, some of the first 2 mmos , Asherons Call and Ultima Online were both classless and pretty sandboxy, also both are still alive, and maybe even kicking. Why won't any of the bigger name MMO developers take on this challenge, instead of leaving our hopes in the hands of games such as Mortal Online and Darkfall?(Not saying there is anything wrong with those games).
Have you not heard of Final Fantasy 14? Classless, Leveless, 2010 nex-gen MMO... Developed by SquareEnix which is a 'major' developer in the RPG world with one of the biggest RPG franchises backing it
Reason is obviously with WoW's success, everybody wants a slice of that pie. You aren't going to attract that subscriber base if you create an Asheron's Call 3. Although for me, I would love to see a real successor to AC, just like I know many have been waiting for the real successor to EQ1, or a real successor to DAOC.
I guess there just aren't enough companies out there willing to settle for less, settle for the niche market, and please their loyal followers. Look at it, SOE created EQ2, which is a game totally different frrom EQ1, and does not really attract EQ1 playerbase. Turbine tried AC2 but it failed because it didn't attract the AC1 playerbase, so then went on to develop LOTR Online (which conveniently takes its playerbase from that WoW pie). Mythic, with a hugely successful DAOC at its time chose to create a Warhammer Online instead of a DAOC 2. And now they aren't doing well with it either.
I'm just hoping one of those companies give us niche players something we want...which is a true successor to the original blockbusters they had. Newer graphics, but similar design is what many niche players want. It would really be awesome to see an upgraded AC1, because I've always liked that game. It was truly a class-less sandbox game.
Sandbox games are just not as popular as theme parks. Reading on these MMORPG forums, you might get the opposite impression... but that is because the very vocal minority is present here in droves.
Don't get me wrong, I love sandbox games. I played UO and SWG for a long time and I thoroughly enjoyed them. The problem with those types of games are that they are MUCH less accessible to gamers in general. They require ungodly amounts of patience and an interest in the world-simulation style that most people just don't have.
Many potential players enter sandbox games, attempt to figure out what the hell they are supposed to do, and end up getting frustrated because there is absolutely no direction. This 'feature' that sandbox fans love immediately bores and infuriates them. Without direction and purpose, most gamers will not stick around... which is why every sandbox game has ultimately become a niche game. These types of games simply do not have mass market appeal.
Considering this, it is not surprising that gaming companies tend to steer clear of sandbox games. All of them are ultimately out to make money and none of the big developers would waste the time and effort to develop something that is destined to be niche. Make no mistake, every single non-indy developer is in this to make as much money as possible.
Fortunately, there are some great indy developers attempting to make sandbox games right now. I only wish players had the patience and understanding to support these project to maturity.
Sandbox games are just not as popular as theme parks. Reading on these MMORPG forums, you might get the opposite impression... but that is because the very vocal minority is present here in droves. Don't get me wrong, I love sandbox games. I played UO and SWG for a long time and I thoroughly enjoyed them. The problem with those types of games are that they are MUCH less accessible to gamers in general. They require ungodly amounts of patience and an interest in the world-simulation style that most people just don't have. Many potential players enter sandbox games, attempt to figure out what the hell they are supposed to do, and end up getting frustrated because there is absolutely no direction. This 'feature' that sandbox fans love immediately bores and infuriates them. Without direction and purpose, most gamers will not stick around... which is why every sandbox game has ultimately become a niche game. These types of games simply do not have mass market appeal. Considering this, it is not surprising that gaming companies tend to steer clear of sandbox games. All of them are ultimately out to make money and none of the big developers would waste the time and effort to develop something that is destined to be niche. Make no mistake, every single non-indy developer is in this to make as much money as possible. Fortunately, there are some great indy developers attempting to make sandbox games right now. I only wish players had the patience and understanding to support these project to maturity.
You are right, but we should also take into consideration the ADD kids. There are so many kids these days taking meds that it's rediculous. For sure the money is not in sandbox games. If I were an investor, I would not invest in a sandbox game. Cookie cutter theme parks is the way to go.
Simple you are not paying the sandbox games that do exist enough money.
To explain more, when you are starting a new project that will cost 50 million to make and take years, you target the biggest market. Since the biggest market has the most players to spare. And since everyone is paying all the money to WoW, LotRO, WAR etc that is the big market that keeps getting targetted.
People seem to think that not playing games and sitting on forums saying what they want will cause change, it won't. Only one thing speaks and that's money. So get out there and get subs on the older sandbox games that still exist to this day (UO AC) to show that there's a market. If you say "well their graphics are too old", then learn to be happy with linear MMOs because it is all that will keep being produced.
Money is the key, do not pay for games you don't want to see more of just because it's popular, DO pay for the types of games you want to see more of and support them and draw players to them. The one thing guaranteed to do nothing, is doing nothing. So if you have no MMO subs and post on forums about change, unfortunatly you don't matter much in the grand scheme of things because your money isn't being calculated into new game decisions.
You are right, but we should also take into consideration the ADD kids. There are so many kids these days taking meds that it's rediculous. For sure the money is not in sandbox games. If I were an investor, I would not invest in a sandbox game. Cookie cutter theme parks is the way to go.
The cookie cutter theme park model is saturated. Why would you invest in a saturated market? Sandbox is the way to go from an investment stand point.
You are right, but we should also take into consideration the ADD kids. There are so many kids these days taking meds that it's rediculous. For sure the money is not in sandbox games. If I were an investor, I would not invest in a sandbox game. Cookie cutter theme parks is the way to go.
The cookie cutter theme park model is saturated. Why would you invest in a saturated market? Sandbox is the way to go from an investment stand point.
It is only saturated because that is where the money is at. There is a bigger "theme park" crowd than "sand-box" crowd. Let's face it, a majority of the 13+ million subscribers in WoW most likely have not played many other MMO's (especially older ones) yet alone out of the other MMO's that most end up trying outside of WoW, the chance of them playing a sand-box (or even knowing what a sand-box MMO is) is very low with the limited amount of sand-box games overall (especially ones that are currently popular).
From a business stand-point, the majority of companies (especially bigger ones) generally stick to the tried and true methods (that have produced big bucks in the past) rather than taking the big risks (which has greater potential to win big but also lose big). Those are left to the smaller and more independent companies.
Comments
I think it's because they have no idea how to design one!
Most MMO designs we are seeing are the level progression type. That is their comfort zone.
This stems back to the days of D&D (The pen and paper version). That's the model most of them are working from.
And really, that's easy for them because they all have that original template to fall back on. Many of them probably don't even understand why that game was a success or even the design behind it. It's also not something they could have thought of themselves in a million years. But it worked, so they try to emulate it. When they get lost they fall back on the basic design principles in it.
You kill stuff - you get loot and XP.
You level up.
Your stats go up.
You get better gear.
You can now face tougher monsters with more (and better) loot. These monsters are also worth more XP.
Rinse and repeat.
But where it falls apart is when they start running out of 'levels' - at endgame.
There are really only two solutions
1) the TSR approach. Add more levels! This is what WoW does.
2) Sandbox and endgame content that is sustainable.
And how many games are even close to achieving #2?
Not many - and those that have achieved it may not even be clear on why.
I would pick that of all the MMO designers out there there are probably only a dozen (or less) who would have the faintest idea how to even start designing a sandbox game.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
If there's one company you won't see a sandbox from, it's Blizzard.
Blizzard makes a gamers' games. They don't make sandboxes.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The simple reason is because a sandbox games take a lot more time to develope to do it correctly. Instead of balancing several classes you would have to balance hundreds of different skills and combinations. Plus mmo developers are trying to draw in the single player console crowd which are much more familiar and comfortable with classes.
A sandbox game could easily mimic a theme park game. If you were to take UO throw in difficulty rated quest/missions it wouldn't be that different from wow. Based on the quests difficulty you would be sent to x to kill y and/or gather z. There you go content that people need.
It is sad the only skill based games we are getting are ffa pvp ones (UO was so much more then a pvp game) or sci fi ones. I don't dislike sci fi I just find fantasy more enjoyable.
Which MMOs were you playing because EQ and DAOC were all about endg-game. DAOC certainly was NEVER about the journey to get to RvR. It was about getting to RvR as fast as humanly possible in order to get to the good parts...ENDGAME. And lets face it. EQ was all about min/maxing your EXP to level as fast as possible in order to get to the good parts....RAIDS. This of course pre-dates WOW.
WOW didnt' introduce Winning. Gamers always want to win. Last time I checked the point of 99% of games is to win. In MMOs, winning is whatever goals you choose to obtain. Winning for some is very different from winning for others. WOW didn't change anything. It just brought more people in.
Tried, tested, and failed. AC and UO are still alive, but MMORPGs built on the current model racked up much bigger numbers. WoW is the epitome of the current class and racked up unbelievable numbers. As far as the suits are concerned, a classless sandbox is a way to make less money. They aren't interested.
Best sandbox type game I've seen (at least this year) is probably Ryzom. But Ryzom is not new and I'm assuming much of the MMO population either does not know about it or is simply not interested. Everything that everyone says should be in a sandbox is probably in Ryzom.
I'm thinking that maybe the posters that argue that a sandbox is not going to get the financial support it needs from investors are right. Even with that, most of us seem to agree that games like EVE are a success in their own right. They just aren't ever going to be "mass market" success. That doesn't mean we still can't enjoy what we have now. :-)
The scavenger-type of MMOs with progression through levels is a proven and addictive formula for the mass market.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Well FFXIV has a very sandbox character progression system which trickles into harvesting and crafting so we will see how far they go with it. There is no PvP and i'm sure it will be a nice blend of sandbox and themepark elements. This is just an example, but some major devs will start expanding on the system once they see the 14th WoW clone fail miserably.
Yup!
I wish more people tried the game, as it is the best avatar based sandbox.
Eve is the best sandbox game overall but it is spaceship based, so combat style is very different, which is a big factor. It is truly an amazing game.
I also found Anarchy Online to have pretty good sandbox aspects.
Playing: EvE, Warhammer free unlimited trial, Allods Online
Played: Anarchy Online, WoW, Warhammer, AoC, Ryzom. Aion
Strongly Recommend: Ryzom, EvE, Allods Online
One statement will I make to give hope to those praying on a AAA Sandbox.
If you don't like said AAA developer then I cannot help you, the fact is a AAA Dev house IS taking on a classless sandbox game.
The Secret World by Funcom will be majorly debuted at PAX here in my half the year hometown of lovely grey Seattle.
Alexis
*smiles*
In what, 5 years? I know Funcom's style.
Playing: EvE, Warhammer free unlimited trial, Allods Online
Played: Anarchy Online, WoW, Warhammer, AoC, Ryzom. Aion
Strongly Recommend: Ryzom, EvE, Allods Online
Which MMOs were you playing because EQ and DAOC were all about endg-game. DAOC certainly was NEVER about the journey to get to RvR. It was about getting to RvR as fast as humanly possible in order to get to the good parts...ENDGAME. And lets face it. EQ was all about min/maxing your EXP to level as fast as possible in order to get to the good parts....RAIDS. This of course pre-dates WOW.
WOW didnt' introduce Winning. Gamers always want to win. Last time I checked the point of 99% of games is to win. In MMOs, winning is whatever goals you choose to obtain. Winning for some is very different from winning for others. WOW didn't change anything. It just brought more people in.
Ultima Online and Asheron's Call, both of which had no "end game".
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Nah. Its because the masses dont really want it. It simply isn't profitable. Not to large name houses, not on the scale they operate.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Nah. Its because the masses dont really want it. It simply isn't profitable. Not to large name houses, not on the scale they operate.
I kinda thought about it and i think i would agree with you, great sandbox games like EVE, ryzom and many of the upcoming releases would never hit the 500k mark. They mostly would get around 50k-100k each maybe more depending on other things, but compared to what a company can easily make using the EQ formula with way less effort its kinda of a obvious choice for devs to make those. I really do hope though that we see alot more sandbox games being released in the future though.
Also, those games were made during a time when the genre wasn't nearly as saturated with other games either. The masses have spoken and they prefer a game with clear goals and objectives (myself not included). If its one thing I realize even in life, the people that prefer to master their own fates, to think for themselves and set their own goals are few and far between. One day a company will acknowledge the sandbox crowd but most likely it will be an independent company with time on their hands that acknowledge that it takes time to bring quality (especially for sandboxes for reasons previously posted) and I hope I'm part of that company when the time comes.
EDIT: Also right now MMO is still fairly new to the general population and its safe to say that WoW has been and continues to introduce new types of gamers/people into the MMORPG realm. It'll be a matter of time where people will be able to differentiate between whats goods and bad in an MMO and what they want in an MMO and the extent of what MMO's can do (endless, how many people would actually acknowledge or think of this, they are still enjoying WoW).
Gonna start by sounding like a WoW fanboy, WoW is the most balanced game as far as PVP goes of the games ive tried which is far from all but have tried the major ones. And the amount of balancing they have to do with only 10 classes is alot, which company would really be stupid or brave enough to take on a classless MMO with like limitless "classes" or combinations of spells.
Just took WoW as an example here.
Not saying i dont want a sandbox classless MMO but just not likely its gonna happen and if it does it will most likely not be very balanced im afraid=(
Playing: CO, C&C and WoW.
Played: Tabula Rasa, AoC, War, Aion.
Regret Playing: Hellgate: London, EVE.
Maybe we are thinking inside the box a little too much. The truth is game companies are delivering what most people want and doing it in the simplest way. At its basest level that's what it's about. You want to look cool, you want to feel cool, you want to be recognized and you want to have some power. I think developers recognize this and cater to the players. The easiest way to do this right now is to follow a proven rule set which includes limitations like levels and classes. It makes it easy for them to predict players' behaviors and it makes it easy on most players to decide what they want to do in the game and how to do it. It makes them money and it keeps gamers happy for now. As the gaming population matures (yes it's time to move on from WoW) we should start seeing more and more sandbox-like features appear in games. I mean how long will people really be content competing to see who can pwn whom?
-Greater Force
Well, by that reasoning wouldn't they just continue making the easy games for the less mature gamers? If anything WoW has proven that they grow every year. So that group isn't out growing WoW. That or they are and stoppping playing MMOs?
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Have you not heard of Final Fantasy 14? Classless, Leveless, 2010 nex-gen MMO... Developed by SquareEnix which is a 'major' developer in the RPG world with one of the biggest RPG franchises backing it
Reason is obviously with WoW's success, everybody wants a slice of that pie. You aren't going to attract that subscriber base if you create an Asheron's Call 3. Although for me, I would love to see a real successor to AC, just like I know many have been waiting for the real successor to EQ1, or a real successor to DAOC.
I guess there just aren't enough companies out there willing to settle for less, settle for the niche market, and please their loyal followers. Look at it, SOE created EQ2, which is a game totally different frrom EQ1, and does not really attract EQ1 playerbase. Turbine tried AC2 but it failed because it didn't attract the AC1 playerbase, so then went on to develop LOTR Online (which conveniently takes its playerbase from that WoW pie). Mythic, with a hugely successful DAOC at its time chose to create a Warhammer Online instead of a DAOC 2. And now they aren't doing well with it either.
I'm just hoping one of those companies give us niche players something we want...which is a true successor to the original blockbusters they had. Newer graphics, but similar design is what many niche players want. It would really be awesome to see an upgraded AC1, because I've always liked that game. It was truly a class-less sandbox game.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
Sandbox games are just not as popular as theme parks. Reading on these MMORPG forums, you might get the opposite impression... but that is because the very vocal minority is present here in droves.
Don't get me wrong, I love sandbox games. I played UO and SWG for a long time and I thoroughly enjoyed them. The problem with those types of games are that they are MUCH less accessible to gamers in general. They require ungodly amounts of patience and an interest in the world-simulation style that most people just don't have.
Many potential players enter sandbox games, attempt to figure out what the hell they are supposed to do, and end up getting frustrated because there is absolutely no direction. This 'feature' that sandbox fans love immediately bores and infuriates them. Without direction and purpose, most gamers will not stick around... which is why every sandbox game has ultimately become a niche game. These types of games simply do not have mass market appeal.
Considering this, it is not surprising that gaming companies tend to steer clear of sandbox games. All of them are ultimately out to make money and none of the big developers would waste the time and effort to develop something that is destined to be niche. Make no mistake, every single non-indy developer is in this to make as much money as possible.
Fortunately, there are some great indy developers attempting to make sandbox games right now. I only wish players had the patience and understanding to support these project to maturity.
You are right, but we should also take into consideration the ADD kids. There are so many kids these days taking meds that it's rediculous. For sure the money is not in sandbox games. If I were an investor, I would not invest in a sandbox game. Cookie cutter theme parks is the way to go.
Simple you are not paying the sandbox games that do exist enough money.
To explain more, when you are starting a new project that will cost 50 million to make and take years, you target the biggest market. Since the biggest market has the most players to spare. And since everyone is paying all the money to WoW, LotRO, WAR etc that is the big market that keeps getting targetted.
People seem to think that not playing games and sitting on forums saying what they want will cause change, it won't. Only one thing speaks and that's money. So get out there and get subs on the older sandbox games that still exist to this day (UO AC) to show that there's a market. If you say "well their graphics are too old", then learn to be happy with linear MMOs because it is all that will keep being produced.
Money is the key, do not pay for games you don't want to see more of just because it's popular, DO pay for the types of games you want to see more of and support them and draw players to them. The one thing guaranteed to do nothing, is doing nothing. So if you have no MMO subs and post on forums about change, unfortunatly you don't matter much in the grand scheme of things because your money isn't being calculated into new game decisions.
You are right, but we should also take into consideration the ADD kids. There are so many kids these days taking meds that it's rediculous. For sure the money is not in sandbox games. If I were an investor, I would not invest in a sandbox game. Cookie cutter theme parks is the way to go.
The cookie cutter theme park model is saturated. Why would you invest in a saturated market? Sandbox is the way to go from an investment stand point.
You are right, but we should also take into consideration the ADD kids. There are so many kids these days taking meds that it's rediculous. For sure the money is not in sandbox games. If I were an investor, I would not invest in a sandbox game. Cookie cutter theme parks is the way to go.
The cookie cutter theme park model is saturated. Why would you invest in a saturated market? Sandbox is the way to go from an investment stand point.
It is only saturated because that is where the money is at. There is a bigger "theme park" crowd than "sand-box" crowd. Let's face it, a majority of the 13+ million subscribers in WoW most likely have not played many other MMO's (especially older ones) yet alone out of the other MMO's that most end up trying outside of WoW, the chance of them playing a sand-box (or even knowing what a sand-box MMO is) is very low with the limited amount of sand-box games overall (especially ones that are currently popular).
From a business stand-point, the majority of companies (especially bigger ones) generally stick to the tried and true methods (that have produced big bucks in the past) rather than taking the big risks (which has greater potential to win big but also lose big). Those are left to the smaller and more independent companies.