If Ford created a piece of junk car and sold a record number of them and then GM, Toyota and on and on did the same hoping to cash in then yeah, i would blame Ford for the influx of junk on the market.
You can't redefine sucessful as junk. I think nearly every mass production car since the early 70's is fugly. That doesn't make me the worlds foremost authority on automobile styling. Obviously someone likes all those cars.
I cant agree with that. If the only cars available are all fugly (which I do agree) you still need a car so you buy the least fugly. We are limited to what we buy, by what is available.
The point here is, WoW is not a bad game. It is easy for any asshat to marginalize some of WoW's features and paint it out to be a bad product, but the facts speak for themselves. First, the MMO industry is a much more exclusive industry than let's say automobiles.
WoW is not a commodity good, it is a service people pay for to have fun, you can't compare an entertainment product to a commodity good.
Yes people, pay for 'bad' music and 'bad' movies, but this is a matter of taste, just like video games. Some of you may not like WoW, but the mass appeal speaks for itself. There is something generally enticing about the game that draws in a lot more gamers than generic MMO A. You can not argue against this.
Can you explain a little about what game mechanics in WoW are so terrible?
1-79 is pointless.
Quests are pathetic and have no point. (no "For a Greater Cause")
Quest chains are usually impossible to follow w/o WoWhead.
Doing any dungeon is a waste of time before you get to 75ish.
Then 80 is a gear grind for what? To grind again in 2 months when a new dungeon/set comes out?
Combat is 1 sided and highly unbalanced between classes.
PVP consists of face rolling the keyboard, on most of the better classes.
In PVP, thou who hast the best gear wins. Usually. A naked player @ 80 with a weapon can't even touch even a fully green geared player @ 80.
Movement is meaningless, except to distract your opponent.
Not only are classes unblanaced, Stats are heavily weighted and some have no use.
DPS is 1, 2, 3, oh hey look this one came up. I'll press 4 now. If you're a good DPS anyway and follow ElistJerks formulas, which you have to or be doomed to suck horrible. I don't blame WoW for ElistJerks though.
Tanking consists of basically smashing the keyboard with your palm. But is the only class that you actually have to put a bit of thought into how to gear and how to gem. Which btw is being "fixed" and dumbed down in Cat.
Healing consists of right or left clicking on an addon. Even good healers can't match a bad healer with Healbot.
Blizzard bases the class balance around 5% of the population. (Arenas... they've admitted that statistic.)
Crafting is pathetic. No more needed there.
The economy makes no logical sense. And is designed that way.
Achievements are a pathetic system to make up for lack of end game content.
At endgame you can... do dungeons...if you maxed those out in the whole week it takes to max them out then your choices are to raid... PVP.... or.... yeah? Am I missing anything. Oh, do the same dailies over and over everyday I guess?
The whole endgame is pretty much anti-social, unless you consider sticking to a raiding guild socializing. It's just an MMO, it's cool that you have 10-50 players you only play with and only talk to.
Probably alot of other factors I'm missing, but meh. I got to go to class.
With that said, WoW does do dungeons and raids very well as far as content and complexity goes. Even if they do usually dumb them down after the first week and regurgitate the same dungeons they have had since Vanilla.
But hey, ya know. WoW's a good game right?
WoW actually was a good game back in development. Sad they have strayed so far away from their original path. They had so many good ideas that never made it to game.
Sad to say but you just described the entire genre and blasted it all to hell=) Why are you even playing at all? Some of your list borders on absurdity. Leveling pointless? Congrats on just making the whole purpose of every RPG ever created, pen & paper through Final Fantasy a totally pointless exercise. What good is your opinion after that? Its like saying books are pointless to read because the last few pages are all that matter. Movies are pointless to watch because you can just ask what the ending is and not waste your time experiencing any of it. Really? You expect people to take you serious after that?
And doing any pre-endgame dungeon is pointless also? Ah, I get it? You're one of those, if you can get something better later, everything before it is pointless, kind of people? Explains a bit of cluelessness there.
You can't follow a quest unless you cheat online? Really=)
Movement is meaningless? Maybe if you suck=) That explains a lot, since you admitted you can't follow a quest chain either, hehe.
The endgame is the most social part of the game actually. Personally, I socialized from day 1 to when I quit, but hey, I enjoy socializing just for the point of it, not because the game chains me to the keyboard.
You think newbs are more knowledgeable than the hardcore who really understand how the game works? You listen to the newbs and your game balance is FUBAR. WOW has about as much balance as any MMO can be expected to have. Certainly much more than most MMOs.
You're asking for a logical economy in a game revolving around an endless supply of gold...congrats, you just blasted every MMO under the sun including UO and Eve=) You're serious, really?
You just explained rather thoroughly how little you actually understand about WOW or the genre in general. Thanks for clearing it all up.
Too much nerd rage. The people to blame are other developers that can't seam to find their own way to success. You won't be able out WoW WoW developers need to realize this. In part because WoW didn't really do anything all that new or revolutionary. They simple took what worked from other mmos, borrowing heaving from EQ imho, put their own spin (simpler) on it and put it in a fairly complete product.
For those who say I've blasted the whole genre. You're right. I've virtually blasted every game that has come out post-WoW, which isn't that the point of this thread? There are a couple exceptions post and quite a few pre. If you don't know what they are, then you really don't have any relevance in this thread as your views are pretty much one sided.
Originally posted by Axehilt
"Quest chains are usually impossible to follow w/o WoWhead."
...really?
Pretty much. Most don't tell you where to go next and if they do it's usually "You need to see this guy" but no tell of when or where you can find them. So, what are you supposed to do? Scour the entire Northrend/Outlands/Azeroth to find him? Probably, should have used the word "sometimes" rather than "usually".
"Movement is meaningless, except to distract your opponent."
Jumping through someone in melee is somewhat effective (or at least creates a minimum bar of skill.)
Keeping range skillfully also works with a lot of classes (and Warlocks in particular, with so many insta-cast-on-the-run DOTs.)
True, I forgot about kiting when talking about movements. I had Melee classes in mind when I said that. It was slightly flawed, but still true for the most part.
"Not only are classes unblanaced, Stats are heavily weighted and some have no use."
Please tell us what MMORPG you play where every stat is useful. I'd like to see that!
I didn't say they are not just useful, but some stats have no use what-so-ever and yet still exist in the game. The last patch I played about a month ago completely ruined Spirit for every-single-class and turned it into MP5. If you had spirit you were wasting your time. Except for certain mage specs, but then again high spirit items were usually healer gear especially when dealing with cloth.
"Healing consists of right or left clicking on an addon. Even good healers can't match a bad healer with Healbot."
Eh? I healed with default UI for a long damn time (up through early BC) and outhealed just about everyone...on a shaman, back when we were considered a gimp healing class. Yes, my guild was bad at healing, but that's sort of the point...
And I still never used Healbot. The 20ms added by my having to hit a hotkey then click a target never stopped me from being dominant on the healing meters, and from keeping people alive quite adeptly.
Also: let me know the MMORPG with fantastically deep healing mechanics, because I'd like to play that! (WAR's melee healers were admittedly a little trickier than normal to heal with, which was good even if massive other portions of the game sucked.)
Sorry, I missed a couple words for clarification. My fault not yours. I meant "good" as in above average, not to say people above that level could do better. I hope you get what I mean? I'm not backtracking, if I meant the "best" or "elite" I would have said one of those words.
There are a couple games I've played in the past that have decent healing mechanisms. I've been out of the MMORPG genre for a couple years and I can't remember alot of them, plus I hardly ever play a healer. 2 that do come to mind are Fallen Earth and EVE, however.
"Blizzard bases the class balance around 5% of the population. (Arenas... they've admitted that statistic.)"
I fail to see the problem.
Balancing for noobs ensures your game always has suck balance.
Balancing for experts ensures that even if noob balance sucks everyone has the opportunity to become more skilled at the game and reach true balance at the upper tiers. Ideally you want to try to balance for both, but at a minimum you have to balance for expert play or your game will end up shallow.
Of course the game isn't balanced at a high level of play, but what MMORPG is? What game is?
Well, by doing that they are constantly nerfing and buffing odd classes for the whole game. The best suggestion I've seen on that, was to have 2 completely separate talent trees for PVE and PVP. WoW started out as a PVP game, but today it's completely a PVE game with PVP in it. The PVP is virtually pointless and is no more rewarding than CoD4 or starting a PVP Char in GW. (I haven't played GW since before their first expansion) I am a hardcore CoD4 player, however, so I'm not saying that's a bad thing I just don't want it in my MMO. You can easily equal their leveling system to WoW's PVP gearing system after 80, except without the insane advantage differences ( I still use an MP5 in CoD4 that's given at lvl 1 lol)
"It's just an MMO, it's cool that you have 10-50 players you only play with and only talk to."
Again: welcome to the vast majority of MMOs. Players typically gain no value from interacting with more than 50 other players at once, and given that it creates additional tech and gameplay hurdles it's usually not a focus of games.
And out of the MMOs where you interact with more than 50 players regularly, their gameplay often devolves into massed PVP zerging. Not very fun.
Well, yeah. Again, this is largely post-WoW you see this trend. I was short on time and I couldn't figure out how to word that in a short sentence.
I was mainly talking about how instanced it was and how that's all the game is about. Instance, instance, instance. Personally, I was one of the theory crafters that believed that getting "boosted" and/or running low level instances was a waste of time. But, they still largely exist in the game for all levels.
Other than instances, there really is absolutely no need to group. Being able to solo 0-Max in an MMO is important for success. But in WoW, they take it to the extent that if you do group with someone, unless you're dual boxing where you're on the same page, grouping is actually a hindrance to the speed that you level.
(why the heck is this entire post bolded? I suffer through IE just to run you and you fail me, WSYWIG Editor!?! Pff.)
These new forums suck. I'm using the old BBML editor and going back with an edit to color the parts I want colored. I miss the old phpBB ones they used to have here.
Funny part is. You didn't even bother to look up who owns half the links you posted. Most say right at the top or bottom.
If I'm selling soap to a crack addict, am I going to tell them the crack is crap or am I going to tell them the crack is the best stuff I've ever had?
It's all about the money man. Whether you want to believe it or not. Saying that game reviews from people who sell games are unbiased, is like saying CNN ALWAYS tells the truth and the whole story, because they don't care about ratings.
Funny part is. You didn't even bother to look up who owns half the links you posted. Most say right at the top or bottom. If I'm selling soap to a crack addict, am I going to tell them the crack is crap or am I going to tell them the crack is the best stuff I've ever had?
It's all about the money man. Whether you want to believe it or not. Saying that game reviews from people who sell games are unbiased, is like saying CNN ALWAYS tells the truth and the whole story, because they don't care about ratings.
Gamespy kind of blasted Bionic Commando 2/5. Thats a Capcom game. Pretty big name right there. GodFather II also got 2/5...Umm Thats EA buddy. How many games do they publish per year again? Any reputable site isn't going to just throw out 5/5 on anything, OR blast something out of nerd rage because they'll lose credibility. Gamers are fickle. They can see through the BS. They know when a game is utter crap but gets a 5/5, something is fishy. I'm not saying Gamespy is the utmost authority and they're a bit forgiving sometimes, but they're as big as it gets and they're fair. They're not passing out perfects on everything. They blast plenty of games that deserve it from every publisher there is. It doesn't matter who. Thats any major website.
Basically any wesbite that blasted WOW and called it ^%&$*# like you did, wouldn't have a reputable webstie for long because people would know they're just rage nerds. So go on believing everyone is insane for enjoying WOW, all the sites are getting paid by Blizzard to write good reviews and only the select few REALLY understand whats good and whats not. If EVERYONE is giving a game awesome reviews except for a few blogger sites with obvious agendas, seriously who's the crazy one?
To add to that...major papers and mags blast BIG name movies from major directors and studios. If they didn't blast a turd, they'll lose. I don't agree with everything any one particular source says. You'd be stupid to. But ignoring the mass majority because they're all idiots being paid off, aren't REAL gamers, don't have a clue, or whatever other dumb excuse people like to use, is just stupid.
When the reviews are so one sided across the board, good or bad, its no conspiracy. The game is obviously being perceived by the vast majority as one type of game. In the case of WOW, its extremely positive. A few outside opinions can't change that. WOW is by all measurable standards, a great game...and blaming Blizzard for the woes of OTHER developers is ludicrous.
I would argue that the "mememe" generation is not specific to MMOs and there is nothing you can do to avoid it because the "mememe" IS our new generation. Our civilisation made and brought up the shallow egocentric mass consumer youth that cares about nothing but rewards and does not know the concept of responicibility. They see themselves as eliglible for every reward without having the concept of having to put in the work and dedication to reap that reward (not each and every indivdual is like that, but on lareg scale, that is our latest spawn)
I would say you are part of the dinosaur generation by equating time spent (dedication) as greater than skill. In this day someone that can do in one day what took you a year is more deserving than you.
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I am not defending long grinds in MMOs, in fact I hate them. I do not thing they equal content. I also do not think that content locked away in a way that it takes a long time to get there can be named "difficult" or "challenging" - in fact they are none of it, they are just made so it takes an hourly dedication to get there - like for example you have a town next to yours and a town far away. Driving to the one farther away does not take more skill in driving, it just takes more time. What IS hard about it is that it takes more time - and that is not what games should be about.
I was responding to the sentiment that WOW is, for good or for bad, the best the current crop of MMOs offer, and just because it took something 2x as long a couple of patches ago, does not make it any less challenging., however someone argued that the influx of "mememe" generation into it, makes it a worse playground, because some kids think the sanbox is made just for them and with them in mind.
I argued that that is not WOWs fault, instead that IS how our younger generations looks on things (and I specificaly said that it does not count for every person out there, but in general, the younger generations are more egocentric).
And I don't think I'm a dinosaur at all, I'm 32, work for my living. Have been self-supported since 18. I noticed the traces of ugly head of the "mememe" generation with my own little sister who is 7, and despite the best efforts of my parents, by spending time with other kids in scool, she gets caught up already with many sentiments that are not positive.
Kids these days think that things make them better, that they measure themselves by the kind of things they own, but the concept of ownership where they have to pay the price for it is alien to them,. They have a bunch of more rights and a lot more say thatn older generations had at that same age, but they are not taught that obligations balance out rights.
Point that I was trying to get across is that there is not a damn thing Blizzard or any other MMO (or gaming) company can do to make them change, so we are, wether we want it or not, faced with them growing up and starting playing games - the same games we play, which means the "meme" generation is here to stay wether we like it or not, and the games we play in the future will be more and more tailored to them, and less and less tailored to us, as we grow older - if the companies want to continue earning money, which they absolutely do.
People are constantly slamming Blizzard for all the POS MMORPG's that have been released since its debut and this is just silly. Let's look at this from another angle. If Ford produces a bad car do we blame Honda? If Maytag produces a bad washer to we blame Westinghouse? No. You blame the people responsible - the company behind the product. Why is it then that in the case of MMORPG's when ever a game is released and it turns out bad so many people turn and point the finger at Blizzard instead of the people and company behind the game? Did Blizzard make the game? Did they produce the game? Did they have anything to do with the gmes design or how it was programmed or what direction the games designer took it? The simple and correct answer is - No. No they did not. It was the games designers and producers that created and released the game and not Blizzard. If they triedto copy Blizzard's game design and failed - then it is still not Blizzards fault but the company that tried to copy it - it is their fault. So the next time you go pointing a finger at Blizzard - think about the reality of it. Blizzard didn't make that game - that other company did. They designed it. They produced it. They released it. Just as when Ford makes a car that is bad we don't go blaming Honda for it - we blame Ford.
Your rant seems more than a little bit off if you ask me, I've never once heard anyone blame WOW for the failures of say AOC,WAR nor DF this were games that had their own individual problems well documented and no one once blamed their failures on "them trying to copy Blizzard". I could contniue with this post but it isn't even worth it in my estimation to entertain a statement made that has no validity. I think WOW get's a bad rap myself (and no I don't play it anymore" but I think you are plain and simply wrong when you insinuate that Blizzard get's blamed when all these other games fail.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
I actually thought TQ was better then Diablo, as far as features go. I expect D3 to be damn good though.SC2, not so much, looking and sounding pretty meh. Plus buying three different boxes to play Terran ,Zerg, Protoss story? People will probably buy one for the multiplayer and torrent the rest to experience the story. Didn't they also take out LAN?
TQ lost me without the dynamic areas even though diablo just pulls from multiple map files, at least they have them damnit! ~_~ -- also the skill trees in TQ seemed bland and uninspired with not enough passive effects. SC2 so far from all accounts is looking wonderful -- except the money grab, as you mentioned. Unfortunately box sales isn't enough to make most big-budget games unless you expand the cost of the boxes. SC2 has a tight-rope to walk as far as balancing goes to hopefully attain cult-status in places like Korea (as its predecessor clearly has) -- and balance takes time and money. LAN in D2 is being discussed.
The LAN thing is one that kind of perplexes me. Many many many people play D2 single player (and thusly offline) -- and that's completely fine. But with D3 they are wanting an internet connection to validate your copy every so often, to prevent duplicate CD key usage, as Bnet does now. Anyone even moderately internet savvy can attain a single player PC game for completely free -- and so it has killed the market for those (SP PC games) in any way. Bethesda I believe has cancelled TES5 (in favor of, with any luck, a Fallout mmo, if they can wrest the rights away from a dying old man, Interplay ~_~). Piracy seems like the easy one to blame (that and the incredibly lucrative mmo if it is done right).
It truly does put them at an impasse. Blizzard has the option of putting invasive DRM in their games (which of course, people in the past have simply reworked copies to not have DRM and distributed -- Spore or i e hacked iPhones lol) or the option of requiring an internet connection (which is a form of DRM in it's own way but far less invasive) to play. If anyone has a good idea how to thwart piracy without using either of these, I'd love to hear it and I'm sure I'm not the only one. The internet connection seems like the smart bet due to it's [increasing] availability.
edit:
Originally posted by Munki
Pretty sure it all boils down to the fact that its not cool to be appreciative or enjoy something.
Biggest QFT out there -- when did it become uncool to say thank you and to have fun? I see it absolutely everywhere o_O
Blaming Blizzard for bad MMORPGs is indeed silly. Saying WoW is a bad game is silly too. Why? Well it's one of the first MMORPG to gain such a high momentum and popularity.
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(To general public)
If you don't like the game, don't say you hate it and it's the worse MMO. Just say you don't like it otherwise you are sayin that those 11 million players are retarded people who plays a retarded game when it actually goes down to a matter of opinion. YOU don't like the game but that doesn't mean everyone else should hate this game. Sorry to break it to you but you are not the center of the universe. Other people exist and have their own opinion on every matter in their everyday life. Otherwise WoW wouldn't have that many subscribers.
Now don't get me wrong because I'm sure that after saying this, I'll be labelled as a WoW fanboi but actually, I'm far from this. I don't like WoW. Played only for a month before Burning Crusade and never went back. But to go as far as saying that I hate this game and no one should play "this shit" is just silly. It simply doesn't appeal to me.
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Now back to the main topic: Why shouldn't we blame Blizzard for shitty MMOs? No matter how much we, the players, cry for something original, these mainstream companies would rather take the easy path and steal subs from WoW. They enter the market with the idea of killing WoW by making something similar yet better.
But here's the thing, how can you kill WoW if you just bring in the same thing? Why not bring in new ideas, new concept? Why is it that only Indie Companies are the only one trying to appeal to the other half of the Gamer community? Might as well blame Blizzard because DarkFall had horrible launch.
These mainstream companies actually have the income to create something completly new which in the end could possibly become the true WoW-killer by reaching players with outstanding ideas that only they can produce because THEY HAVE THE MONEY for it. They just don't want to. They would rather copy paste and release a shitty game in hope to steal a few subs from WoW rather than make something original and steal a lot more subs.
But why would they choose that option? On a piece of paper it doesn't make any sense, but in reality they don't have the choice. Here's the real reason: WE are the customers. WE bash every single new game calling it names here and there. WE bash the designers for actually trying to make something original yet failed (which is unfortunate). WE are the ones to blame.
Instead of actually using those new ideas and request these ideas to be added in those new MMOs, many would rather bash it, saying they were scammed, it was all a lie, they'd rather go back to WoW, etc. Unless we clearly states what we want and stop bashing everything we can, we are, and will remain, the only ones to blame.
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To take the Ford exemple. When envronmental issues started to enter people's mind, we began to request better vehicles which requires less gas, pollutes less, etc. Ford and GM hardly provided those by sticking with the "We are men, we make big trucks" mentality. Other companies listened to what we wanted and they gave us what we asked and with every year, a better vehicle which cost less gas and pollutes less enters the market. Of course this is not the only reason which led Ford and GM to break down so badly during these harsh economic times, but it certainly is one that hurted them.
Why can't we do the same? Of course the first few "new ideas" are more likely to fail. THEY ARE NEW! Every companies always takes good ideas that failed and tries to improve it and that idea suddenly became successful. It takes time to create good stuff, so why not be nice and help designers know what we want rather than bashing them for trying?
I absolutely shudder to think where PC gaming would be without Blizzard. Blizzard created the standard for RTS with warcraft 1-2 and SC1 (and SC2 is shaping up to be absolutely amazing). Blizzard is about the only people who can make a truly great hack'n'slash game with Diablo1 and then the masterpiece than is D2 (D3 is still too early to tell, but looks alright) Don't sit there and tell me TQ or Dungeon Siege comes even !@#$ing close. Blizzard came in and made people actually create AAA mmo's! They created a system which a lot of people truly like, and improve on it in every major content patch (removing tedious things, making things more enjoyable for new players, yet making the sense of progression actual on the new content). I will say that this has hurt good ideas, as the barrier to entry (fiscally and quality wise) is almost insurmountable, except for a company like blizzard who understands quality development takes time and money. edit: The real barrier to entry is player expectations of brand new games to not have bugs and have the content of a 5 year insanely well funded game.
Blizzard owns the PC gaming market. They are the last developer outside of Bethesda I can trust in the PC market. Trusting a company is a crazy thing in this day and age--cherish it.
I don't know how I feel about this. I agree, Blizzard releases technically good games with solid polish and that, no doubt, appeal to a great many people. But I took a serious look, and found that their winners in my collection, the Warcraft and Diablo series, I don't really want to play anymore. Warcraft is kinda...well I was going to say 'boring', but I guess 'no longer interesting to me' would be more accurate. Diablo is cute and mindless, like the Solitaire of the modern gamer. You pop in, nuke demons for a bit, then move on to something with substance.
I guess I'm saying I feel like I outgrew these games. They're like kids' toys. GOOD kids' toys, no doubt - I still mess with some Legos from time to time too - but without that same enduring substance you get from Planescape: Torment or Fallout.
So I guess I can 'trust' Blizzard, I just trust them to make well-designed things I'm not particularly interested in anymore.
I don't blame Blizzard... When they design their games, the usually take eons to release. The rest try to throw them out as quickly as their publishers whips flail. So with deadlines and assholes breathing down their necks, they don't have "time" to come up with something innovative. If they want to keep their jobs, they'll make something that will sell and keep the uppers happy, at least for the time being. Either that, or people were not genuinely interested in "innovation."
Take for instance Tabula Rasa. What do you think was the downfall of that?
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
I don't blame Blizzard... When they design their games, the usually take eons to release. The rest try to throw them out as quickly as their publishers whips flail. So with deadlines and assholes breathing down their necks, they don't have "time" to come up with something innovative. If they want to keep their jobs, they'll make something that will sell and keep the uppers happy, at least for the time being. Either that, or people were not genuinely interested in "innovation." Take for instance Tabula Rasa. What do you think was the downfall of that?
I remember that Tabula Rasa's major downfall was all these bugs issues to the point where they actually re-programmed the game again from scratch.....that hurted them quite a lot.
I don't blame Blizzard... When they design their games, the usually take eons to release. The rest try to throw them out as quickly as their publishers whips flail. So with deadlines and assholes breathing down their necks, they don't have "time" to come up with something innovative. If they want to keep their jobs, they'll make something that will sell and keep the uppers happy, at least for the time being. Either that, or people were not genuinely interested in "innovation." Take for instance Tabula Rasa. What do you think was the downfall of that?
I remember that Tabula Rasa's major downfall was all these bugs issues to the point where they actually re-programmed the game again from scratch.....that hurted them quite a lot.
I agree.
If anyone played Hellgate: London... what was the downfall of that?
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
If Ford created a piece of junk car and sold a record number of them and then GM, Toyota and on and on did the same hoping to cash in then yeah, i would blame Ford for the influx of junk on the market.
Exactly. People are making games that are, face it, strikingly similar to WoW because they ARE trying to copy that ineffable thing that makes WoW so popular. WoW is shit, and the other games are even worse, so they are super-shit. People are trying to snag that market share by copying what exists instead of trying something new. I do, however, blame the companies doing it more than Blizzard, but Blizzard is the reason this is happening.
im blaming blizzard for me stubbing my toe on my bed!!!! cause they clearly have created the problem of toe stubbing on beds.
honestly tho... blizzard makes acceptable games, i dont like their newer stuff personally but meh.
what kills most games now days tho in the MMO section is the fact companies what to make a success like WoW was to blizzard when it went live. they want to make a few billion in subs in a week (guesstimate)
but thanks to WoW people are now totally tired of the cookie cutters. we can honestly say after the many years people put in to wow they are tired of grinding like that.
but blizzard didnt kill games. game companies kill games
If Ford created a piece of junk car and sold a record number of them and then GM, Toyota and on and on did the same hoping to cash in then yeah, i would blame Ford for the influx of junk on the market.
Exactly. People are making games that are, face it, strikingly similar to WoW because they ARE trying to copy that ineffable thing that makes WoW so popular. WoW is shit, and the other games are even worse, so they are super-shit. People are trying to snag that market share by copying what exists instead of trying something new. I do, however, blame the companies doing it more than Blizzard, but Blizzard is the reason this is happening.
And you cannot deny that it is happening.
QFT!! That is all.
Companies don't copy other company's success!
BLASPHEMY!
Like WoW or not, facts are facts. It's the same thing as the iPhone. Record sales, tons of copies. Say they aren't cause they all added 2 buttons to they hardware, I dare you. lol
Just in this case though, the iPhone is far superior to anything that's ever been released before and has more than just sales to back it up.
For those who say I've blasted the whole genre. You're right. I've virtually blasted every game that has come out post-WoW, which isn't that the point of this thread? There are a couple exceptions post and quite a few pre. If you don't know what they are, then you really don't have any relevance in this thread as your views are pretty much one sided.
Actually you blasted the entire genre. Don't limit your broad sweeping generalizations just to the wow era so you can try to make your point valid. You shot your entire arguement down the drain with your own comments and you cannot retract it by trying to artifically contain it to only to a certain time period.
Remember, wow is just a continuation of mmo evolution. It is built upon the same exact foundation as just about every mmo prior to its release. Most notably Everquest. It has the same exact elements as almost every mmo (every fantasy computer game for that matter) for the past 10 years, which you just detailed as the problem.
You got so focused on the one tree you could not see the forest that you were insulting.
If Ford created a piece of junk car and sold a record number of them and then GM, Toyota and on and on did the same hoping to cash in then yeah, i would blame Ford for the influx of junk on the market.
If Blizzard(Ford) made a product that was better than its competitors SOE(GM), EA(Toyota) then there is a reason more people are buying what you call that then they are from SOE/EA.
How bad do EA/SOE products have to be that a "junk" product can walk in and literally steal 2/3 of the market right out from underneath their feet? Is it blizzards fault that so many companies have failed to deliver a competitive product?
The failure of your weak analogy is that you blame blizzard for being junk and leave it unspoken that EA/SOE somehow delivered quality. Which is so about the funniest thing I have seen in a long time.
Wow is a good game that is exceptionally well made. It dominates the market, because the vast majority of competing products are garbage and that trend continues to this day. Developers continue to repeat the same mistakes that have murdered so many games with huge potential that it is shameful.
Even worse is people like yourself who cannot run fast enough to place any responsibility on anyone other than those who deserve it. You are blaming people who have done their job well and creating satisfied customers for ruining the market and turning a blind eye to people who have failed their job so miserably that in many cases they have been fired or the companies go right out of business. It is down right shameful how many legendary developers, mega budget projects, massive software development/publishing companies have delivered so many terrible games to the market in recent years. There is no excuse for the failure these people have been doing at the jobs.
It is just plain stupidity to blame 1 company for creating a well designed product in a market marred by so many tragic failures.
Companies need to stop trying to immitate world of warcraft and start immitating Blizzard. Blizzard beat the market with two simple rules.
Is it fun? If it wasn't it got removed or changed until it was.
Is it ready for release? If it was not ready, it was not released.
Imagine what the market would look like if only a few other mmos had followed these principles. Look at the failures on the market and see how many did not apply those two simple principles to their design process.
If Ford created a piece of junk car and sold a record number of them and then GM, Toyota and on and on did the same hoping to cash in then yeah, i would blame Ford for the influx of junk on the market.
Exactly. People are making games that are, face it, strikingly similar to WoW because they ARE trying to copy that ineffable thing that makes WoW so popular. WoW is shit, and the other games are even worse, so they are super-shit. People are trying to snag that market share by copying what exists instead of trying something new. I do, however, blame the companies doing it more than Blizzard, but Blizzard is the reason this is happening.
And you cannot deny that it is happening.
QFT!! That is all.
Companies don't copy other company's success!
BLASPHEMY!
Like WoW or not, facts are facts. It's the same thing as the iPhone. Record sales, tons of copies. Say they aren't cause they all added 2 buttons to they hardware, I dare you. lol
Just in this case though, the iPhone is far superior to anything that's ever been released before and has more than just sales to back it up.
Your reading comprehension isn't all that great is it? Or did you just miss the part where I wrote that it is not Blizzards fault that these game companies are trying to emulate them. If another game company tries to emulate WoW and fails that is not Blizzards fault - you blame the company that failed to do it as well as Blizzard.
You really don't have much of an argument with what I stated because you have nothing really to back it up. So many people like to point fingers and say that Blizzard is the reason for the lousy games that have been released in recent yers because these companies try to make a game like WoW. Maybe that is the problem. Let Blizzard make their type of game and the other companies should make theirs instead of trying to emulate - you innovate.
CCP is doing it. Their game is nothing like WoW. Though to be honest it does fit with your list of bad things in MMORPG's. LOL! Still can't get over that one. Nice try though.
Your reading comprehension isn't all that great is it? <snip>
You're not really one to talk about reading comprehension, when you write a reply to something I never said.
I actually never once said I blamed anyone for copying anyone. I said they do copy and that WoW is a bad game. To blame WoW for other people's faults is kind of stupid. The only thing blame WoW for, is having a bad game that's so popular. They could have thrown some things in, that they had planned on in development, to make it a much better game than it is today and it wouldn't be any less popular.
I also haven't replied to most of the people who said my "list of bad mmos" either. But if you want a reply to that, it's simple. Everything has their faults, but only WoW has pulled off every single one so flawlessly. Each MMOs has it's ups and downs and there is only one major up I can see that WoW has, besides numbers, and that's it's Endgame PVE. The point of it isn't so great, but actually doing is done pretty well, even if they have only changed a few models/skills, levels, and skill sets since Vanilla.
You're not really one to talk about reading comprehension, when you write a reply to something I never said. I actually never once said I blamed anyone for copying anyone. I said they do copy and that WoW is a bad game. To blame WoW for other people's faults is kind of stupid. The only thing blame WoW for, is having a bad game that's so popular. They could have thrown some things in, that they had planned on in development, to make it a much better game than it is today and it wouldn't be any less popular.
I also haven't replied to most of the people who said my "list of bad mmos" either. But if you want a reply to that, it's simple. Everything has their faults, but only WoW has pulled off every single one so flawlessly. Each MMOs has it's ups and downs and there is only one major up I can see that WoW has, besides numbers and that's it's Endgame PVE. The point of it isn't so great, but actually doing is done pretty well, even if they have only changed a few models/skills, levels, and skill sets since Vanilla.
I say WOW is the best game ever. You say the opposite.
Hands raised ... let's count ... and you can only vote if you pay ...
Sorry the majority wins. By democratic and paid vote, the public has spoken.
You can't have a bad game when you have a succesful game Sir. Because succesful is other than just popular
Comments
You can't redefine sucessful as junk. I think nearly every mass production car since the early 70's is fugly. That doesn't make me the worlds foremost authority on automobile styling. Obviously someone likes all those cars.
I cant agree with that. If the only cars available are all fugly (which I do agree) you still need a car so you buy the least fugly. We are limited to what we buy, by what is available.
The point here is, WoW is not a bad game. It is easy for any asshat to marginalize some of WoW's features and paint it out to be a bad product, but the facts speak for themselves. First, the MMO industry is a much more exclusive industry than let's say automobiles.
WoW is not a commodity good, it is a service people pay for to have fun, you can't compare an entertainment product to a commodity good.
Yes people, pay for 'bad' music and 'bad' movies, but this is a matter of taste, just like video games. Some of you may not like WoW, but the mass appeal speaks for itself. There is something generally enticing about the game that draws in a lot more gamers than generic MMO A. You can not argue against this.
1-79 is pointless.
Quests are pathetic and have no point. (no "For a Greater Cause")
Quest chains are usually impossible to follow w/o WoWhead.
Doing any dungeon is a waste of time before you get to 75ish.
Then 80 is a gear grind for what? To grind again in 2 months when a new dungeon/set comes out?
Combat is 1 sided and highly unbalanced between classes.
PVP consists of face rolling the keyboard, on most of the better classes.
In PVP, thou who hast the best gear wins. Usually. A naked player @ 80 with a weapon can't even touch even a fully green geared player @ 80.
Movement is meaningless, except to distract your opponent.
Not only are classes unblanaced, Stats are heavily weighted and some have no use.
DPS is 1, 2, 3, oh hey look this one came up. I'll press 4 now. If you're a good DPS anyway and follow ElistJerks formulas, which you have to or be doomed to suck horrible. I don't blame WoW for ElistJerks though.
Tanking consists of basically smashing the keyboard with your palm. But is the only class that you actually have to put a bit of thought into how to gear and how to gem. Which btw is being "fixed" and dumbed down in Cat.
Healing consists of right or left clicking on an addon. Even good healers can't match a bad healer with Healbot.
Blizzard bases the class balance around 5% of the population. (Arenas... they've admitted that statistic.)
Crafting is pathetic. No more needed there.
The economy makes no logical sense. And is designed that way.
Achievements are a pathetic system to make up for lack of end game content.
At endgame you can... do dungeons...if you maxed those out in the whole week it takes to max them out then your choices are to raid... PVP.... or.... yeah? Am I missing anything. Oh, do the same dailies over and over everyday I guess?
The whole endgame is pretty much anti-social, unless you consider sticking to a raiding guild socializing. It's just an MMO, it's cool that you have 10-50 players you only play with and only talk to.
Probably alot of other factors I'm missing, but meh. I got to go to class.
With that said, WoW does do dungeons and raids very well as far as content and complexity goes. Even if they do usually dumb them down after the first week and regurgitate the same dungeons they have had since Vanilla.
But hey, ya know. WoW's a good game right?
WoW actually was a good game back in development. Sad they have strayed so far away from their original path. They had so many good ideas that never made it to game.
Sad to say but you just described the entire genre and blasted it all to hell=) Why are you even playing at all? Some of your list borders on absurdity. Leveling pointless? Congrats on just making the whole purpose of every RPG ever created, pen & paper through Final Fantasy a totally pointless exercise. What good is your opinion after that? Its like saying books are pointless to read because the last few pages are all that matter. Movies are pointless to watch because you can just ask what the ending is and not waste your time experiencing any of it. Really? You expect people to take you serious after that?
And doing any pre-endgame dungeon is pointless also? Ah, I get it? You're one of those, if you can get something better later, everything before it is pointless, kind of people? Explains a bit of cluelessness there.
You can't follow a quest unless you cheat online? Really=)
Movement is meaningless? Maybe if you suck=) That explains a lot, since you admitted you can't follow a quest chain either, hehe.
The endgame is the most social part of the game actually. Personally, I socialized from day 1 to when I quit, but hey, I enjoy socializing just for the point of it, not because the game chains me to the keyboard.
You think newbs are more knowledgeable than the hardcore who really understand how the game works? You listen to the newbs and your game balance is FUBAR. WOW has about as much balance as any MMO can be expected to have. Certainly much more than most MMOs.
You're asking for a logical economy in a game revolving around an endless supply of gold...congrats, you just blasted every MMO under the sun including UO and Eve=) You're serious, really?
You just explained rather thoroughly how little you actually understand about WOW or the genre in general. Thanks for clearing it all up.
Too much nerd rage. The people to blame are other developers that can't seam to find their own way to success. You won't be able out WoW WoW developers need to realize this. In part because WoW didn't really do anything all that new or revolutionary. They simple took what worked from other mmos, borrowing heaving from EQ imho, put their own spin (simpler) on it and put it in a fairly complete product.
i dont blame blizzard
i blame the shitastic copycat companies.
For those who say I've blasted the whole genre. You're right. I've virtually blasted every game that has come out post-WoW, which isn't that the point of this thread? There are a couple exceptions post and quite a few pre. If you don't know what they are, then you really don't have any relevance in this thread as your views are pretty much one sided.
@Eunuchmaker
Funny part is. You didn't even bother to look up who owns half the links you posted. Most say right at the top or bottom.
If I'm selling soap to a crack addict, am I going to tell them the crack is crap or am I going to tell them the crack is the best stuff I've ever had?
It's all about the money man. Whether you want to believe it or not. Saying that game reviews from people who sell games are unbiased, is like saying CNN ALWAYS tells the truth and the whole story, because they don't care about ratings.
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Pretty sure it all boils down to the fact that its not cool to be appreciative or enjoy something.
Bitching and complaining has no draw back.. your happy and wrong, or your unhappy and right.
Most people on these forums just don't have the balls to like or be excited for something.
Edit:Yes, game theory, learn it :P
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
Gamespy kind of blasted Bionic Commando 2/5. Thats a Capcom game. Pretty big name right there. GodFather II also got 2/5...Umm Thats EA buddy. How many games do they publish per year again? Any reputable site isn't going to just throw out 5/5 on anything, OR blast something out of nerd rage because they'll lose credibility. Gamers are fickle. They can see through the BS. They know when a game is utter crap but gets a 5/5, something is fishy. I'm not saying Gamespy is the utmost authority and they're a bit forgiving sometimes, but they're as big as it gets and they're fair. They're not passing out perfects on everything. They blast plenty of games that deserve it from every publisher there is. It doesn't matter who. Thats any major website.
Basically any wesbite that blasted WOW and called it ^%&$*# like you did, wouldn't have a reputable webstie for long because people would know they're just rage nerds. So go on believing everyone is insane for enjoying WOW, all the sites are getting paid by Blizzard to write good reviews and only the select few REALLY understand whats good and whats not. If EVERYONE is giving a game awesome reviews except for a few blogger sites with obvious agendas, seriously who's the crazy one?
To add to that...major papers and mags blast BIG name movies from major directors and studios. If they didn't blast a turd, they'll lose. I don't agree with everything any one particular source says. You'd be stupid to. But ignoring the mass majority because they're all idiots being paid off, aren't REAL gamers, don't have a clue, or whatever other dumb excuse people like to use, is just stupid.
When the reviews are so one sided across the board, good or bad, its no conspiracy. The game is obviously being perceived by the vast majority as one type of game. In the case of WOW, its extremely positive. A few outside opinions can't change that. WOW is by all measurable standards, a great game...and blaming Blizzard for the woes of OTHER developers is ludicrous.
I would say you are part of the dinosaur generation by equating time spent (dedication) as greater than skill. In this day someone that can do in one day what took you a year is more deserving than you.
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I am not defending long grinds in MMOs, in fact I hate them. I do not thing they equal content. I also do not think that content locked away in a way that it takes a long time to get there can be named "difficult" or "challenging" - in fact they are none of it, they are just made so it takes an hourly dedication to get there - like for example you have a town next to yours and a town far away. Driving to the one farther away does not take more skill in driving, it just takes more time. What IS hard about it is that it takes more time - and that is not what games should be about.
I was responding to the sentiment that WOW is, for good or for bad, the best the current crop of MMOs offer, and just because it took something 2x as long a couple of patches ago, does not make it any less challenging., however someone argued that the influx of "mememe" generation into it, makes it a worse playground, because some kids think the sanbox is made just for them and with them in mind.
I argued that that is not WOWs fault, instead that IS how our younger generations looks on things (and I specificaly said that it does not count for every person out there, but in general, the younger generations are more egocentric).
And I don't think I'm a dinosaur at all, I'm 32, work for my living. Have been self-supported since 18. I noticed the traces of ugly head of the "mememe" generation with my own little sister who is 7, and despite the best efforts of my parents, by spending time with other kids in scool, she gets caught up already with many sentiments that are not positive.
Kids these days think that things make them better, that they measure themselves by the kind of things they own, but the concept of ownership where they have to pay the price for it is alien to them,. They have a bunch of more rights and a lot more say thatn older generations had at that same age, but they are not taught that obligations balance out rights.
Point that I was trying to get across is that there is not a damn thing Blizzard or any other MMO (or gaming) company can do to make them change, so we are, wether we want it or not, faced with them growing up and starting playing games - the same games we play, which means the "meme" generation is here to stay wether we like it or not, and the games we play in the future will be more and more tailored to them, and less and less tailored to us, as we grow older - if the companies want to continue earning money, which they absolutely do.
Your rant seems more than a little bit off if you ask me, I've never once heard anyone blame WOW for the failures of say AOC,WAR nor DF this were games that had their own individual problems well documented and no one once blamed their failures on "them trying to copy Blizzard". I could contniue with this post but it isn't even worth it in my estimation to entertain a statement made that has no validity. I think WOW get's a bad rap myself (and no I don't play it anymore" but I think you are plain and simply wrong when you insinuate that Blizzard get's blamed when all these other games fail.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
TQ lost me without the dynamic areas even though diablo just pulls from multiple map files, at least they have them damnit! ~_~ -- also the skill trees in TQ seemed bland and uninspired with not enough passive effects. SC2 so far from all accounts is looking wonderful -- except the money grab, as you mentioned. Unfortunately box sales isn't enough to make most big-budget games unless you expand the cost of the boxes. SC2 has a tight-rope to walk as far as balancing goes to hopefully attain cult-status in places like Korea (as its predecessor clearly has) -- and balance takes time and money. LAN in D2 is being discussed.
The LAN thing is one that kind of perplexes me. Many many many people play D2 single player (and thusly offline) -- and that's completely fine. But with D3 they are wanting an internet connection to validate your copy every so often, to prevent duplicate CD key usage, as Bnet does now. Anyone even moderately internet savvy can attain a single player PC game for completely free -- and so it has killed the market for those (SP PC games) in any way. Bethesda I believe has cancelled TES5 (in favor of, with any luck, a Fallout mmo, if they can wrest the rights away from a dying old man, Interplay ~_~). Piracy seems like the easy one to blame (that and the incredibly lucrative mmo if it is done right).
It truly does put them at an impasse. Blizzard has the option of putting invasive DRM in their games (which of course, people in the past have simply reworked copies to not have DRM and distributed -- Spore or i e hacked iPhones lol) or the option of requiring an internet connection (which is a form of DRM in it's own way but far less invasive) to play. If anyone has a good idea how to thwart piracy without using either of these, I'd love to hear it and I'm sure I'm not the only one. The internet connection seems like the smart bet due to it's [increasing] availability.
edit:
Originally posted by Munki
Pretty sure it all boils down to the fact that its not cool to be appreciative or enjoy something.
Biggest QFT out there -- when did it become uncool to say thank you and to have fun? I see it absolutely everywhere o_O
I completly agree with OP's post.
Blaming Blizzard for bad MMORPGs is indeed silly. Saying WoW is a bad game is silly too. Why? Well it's one of the first MMORPG to gain such a high momentum and popularity.
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(To general public)
If you don't like the game, don't say you hate it and it's the worse MMO. Just say you don't like it otherwise you are sayin that those 11 million players are retarded people who plays a retarded game when it actually goes down to a matter of opinion. YOU don't like the game but that doesn't mean everyone else should hate this game. Sorry to break it to you but you are not the center of the universe. Other people exist and have their own opinion on every matter in their everyday life. Otherwise WoW wouldn't have that many subscribers.
Now don't get me wrong because I'm sure that after saying this, I'll be labelled as a WoW fanboi but actually, I'm far from this. I don't like WoW. Played only for a month before Burning Crusade and never went back. But to go as far as saying that I hate this game and no one should play "this shit" is just silly. It simply doesn't appeal to me.
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Now back to the main topic: Why shouldn't we blame Blizzard for shitty MMOs? No matter how much we, the players, cry for something original, these mainstream companies would rather take the easy path and steal subs from WoW. They enter the market with the idea of killing WoW by making something similar yet better.
But here's the thing, how can you kill WoW if you just bring in the same thing? Why not bring in new ideas, new concept? Why is it that only Indie Companies are the only one trying to appeal to the other half of the Gamer community? Might as well blame Blizzard because DarkFall had horrible launch.
These mainstream companies actually have the income to create something completly new which in the end could possibly become the true WoW-killer by reaching players with outstanding ideas that only they can produce because THEY HAVE THE MONEY for it. They just don't want to. They would rather copy paste and release a shitty game in hope to steal a few subs from WoW rather than make something original and steal a lot more subs.
But why would they choose that option? On a piece of paper it doesn't make any sense, but in reality they don't have the choice. Here's the real reason: WE are the customers. WE bash every single new game calling it names here and there. WE bash the designers for actually trying to make something original yet failed (which is unfortunate). WE are the ones to blame.
Instead of actually using those new ideas and request these ideas to be added in those new MMOs, many would rather bash it, saying they were scammed, it was all a lie, they'd rather go back to WoW, etc. Unless we clearly states what we want and stop bashing everything we can, we are, and will remain, the only ones to blame.
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To take the Ford exemple. When envronmental issues started to enter people's mind, we began to request better vehicles which requires less gas, pollutes less, etc. Ford and GM hardly provided those by sticking with the "We are men, we make big trucks" mentality. Other companies listened to what we wanted and they gave us what we asked and with every year, a better vehicle which cost less gas and pollutes less enters the market. Of course this is not the only reason which led Ford and GM to break down so badly during these harsh economic times, but it certainly is one that hurted them.
Why can't we do the same? Of course the first few "new ideas" are more likely to fail. THEY ARE NEW! Every companies always takes good ideas that failed and tries to improve it and that idea suddenly became successful. It takes time to create good stuff, so why not be nice and help designers know what we want rather than bashing them for trying?
I don't know how I feel about this. I agree, Blizzard releases technically good games with solid polish and that, no doubt, appeal to a great many people. But I took a serious look, and found that their winners in my collection, the Warcraft and Diablo series, I don't really want to play anymore. Warcraft is kinda...well I was going to say 'boring', but I guess 'no longer interesting to me' would be more accurate. Diablo is cute and mindless, like the Solitaire of the modern gamer. You pop in, nuke demons for a bit, then move on to something with substance.
I guess I'm saying I feel like I outgrew these games. They're like kids' toys. GOOD kids' toys, no doubt - I still mess with some Legos from time to time too - but without that same enduring substance you get from Planescape: Torment or Fallout.
So I guess I can 'trust' Blizzard, I just trust them to make well-designed things I'm not particularly interested in anymore.
I don't blame Blizzard... When they design their games, the usually take eons to release. The rest try to throw them out as quickly as their publishers whips flail. So with deadlines and assholes breathing down their necks, they don't have "time" to come up with something innovative. If they want to keep their jobs, they'll make something that will sell and keep the uppers happy, at least for the time being. Either that, or people were not genuinely interested in "innovation."
Take for instance Tabula Rasa. What do you think was the downfall of that?
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
I remember that Tabula Rasa's major downfall was all these bugs issues to the point where they actually re-programmed the game again from scratch.....that hurted them quite a lot.
I remember that Tabula Rasa's major downfall was all these bugs issues to the point where they actually re-programmed the game again from scratch.....that hurted them quite a lot.
I agree.
If anyone played Hellgate: London... what was the downfall of that?
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
Exactly. People are making games that are, face it, strikingly similar to WoW because they ARE trying to copy that ineffable thing that makes WoW so popular. WoW is shit, and the other games are even worse, so they are super-shit. People are trying to snag that market share by copying what exists instead of trying something new. I do, however, blame the companies doing it more than Blizzard, but Blizzard is the reason this is happening.
And you cannot deny that it is happening.
QFT!! That is all.
OK ill make it offical via this thread.
im blaming blizzard for me stubbing my toe on my bed!!!! cause they clearly have created the problem of toe stubbing on beds.
honestly tho... blizzard makes acceptable games, i dont like their newer stuff personally but meh.
what kills most games now days tho in the MMO section is the fact companies what to make a success like WoW was to blizzard when it went live. they want to make a few billion in subs in a week (guesstimate)
but thanks to WoW people are now totally tired of the cookie cutters. we can honestly say after the many years people put in to wow they are tired of grinding like that.
but blizzard didnt kill games. game companies kill games
Exactly. People are making games that are, face it, strikingly similar to WoW because they ARE trying to copy that ineffable thing that makes WoW so popular. WoW is shit, and the other games are even worse, so they are super-shit. People are trying to snag that market share by copying what exists instead of trying something new. I do, however, blame the companies doing it more than Blizzard, but Blizzard is the reason this is happening.
And you cannot deny that it is happening.
QFT!! That is all.
Companies don't copy other company's success!
BLASPHEMY!
Like WoW or not, facts are facts. It's the same thing as the iPhone. Record sales, tons of copies. Say they aren't cause they all added 2 buttons to they hardware, I dare you. lol
Just in this case though, the iPhone is far superior to anything that's ever been released before and has more than just sales to back it up.
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Didn't Flagship went bankrupt and EA (or Namco...can't remember) won't allow any company to publish the game in NA or EU
Actually you blasted the entire genre. Don't limit your broad sweeping generalizations just to the wow era so you can try to make your point valid. You shot your entire arguement down the drain with your own comments and you cannot retract it by trying to artifically contain it to only to a certain time period.
Remember, wow is just a continuation of mmo evolution. It is built upon the same exact foundation as just about every mmo prior to its release. Most notably Everquest. It has the same exact elements as almost every mmo (every fantasy computer game for that matter) for the past 10 years, which you just detailed as the problem.
You got so focused on the one tree you could not see the forest that you were insulting.
If Blizzard(Ford) made a product that was better than its competitors SOE(GM), EA(Toyota) then there is a reason more people are buying what you call that then they are from SOE/EA.
How bad do EA/SOE products have to be that a "junk" product can walk in and literally steal 2/3 of the market right out from underneath their feet? Is it blizzards fault that so many companies have failed to deliver a competitive product?
The failure of your weak analogy is that you blame blizzard for being junk and leave it unspoken that EA/SOE somehow delivered quality. Which is so about the funniest thing I have seen in a long time.
Wow is a good game that is exceptionally well made. It dominates the market, because the vast majority of competing products are garbage and that trend continues to this day. Developers continue to repeat the same mistakes that have murdered so many games with huge potential that it is shameful.
Even worse is people like yourself who cannot run fast enough to place any responsibility on anyone other than those who deserve it. You are blaming people who have done their job well and creating satisfied customers for ruining the market and turning a blind eye to people who have failed their job so miserably that in many cases they have been fired or the companies go right out of business. It is down right shameful how many legendary developers, mega budget projects, massive software development/publishing companies have delivered so many terrible games to the market in recent years. There is no excuse for the failure these people have been doing at the jobs.
It is just plain stupidity to blame 1 company for creating a well designed product in a market marred by so many tragic failures.
Companies need to stop trying to immitate world of warcraft and start immitating Blizzard. Blizzard beat the market with two simple rules.
Imagine what the market would look like if only a few other mmos had followed these principles. Look at the failures on the market and see how many did not apply those two simple principles to their design process.
Exactly. People are making games that are, face it, strikingly similar to WoW because they ARE trying to copy that ineffable thing that makes WoW so popular. WoW is shit, and the other games are even worse, so they are super-shit. People are trying to snag that market share by copying what exists instead of trying something new. I do, however, blame the companies doing it more than Blizzard, but Blizzard is the reason this is happening.
And you cannot deny that it is happening.
QFT!! That is all.
Companies don't copy other company's success!
BLASPHEMY!
Like WoW or not, facts are facts. It's the same thing as the iPhone. Record sales, tons of copies. Say they aren't cause they all added 2 buttons to they hardware, I dare you. lol
Just in this case though, the iPhone is far superior to anything that's ever been released before and has more than just sales to back it up.
Your reading comprehension isn't all that great is it? Or did you just miss the part where I wrote that it is not Blizzards fault that these game companies are trying to emulate them. If another game company tries to emulate WoW and fails that is not Blizzards fault - you blame the company that failed to do it as well as Blizzard.
You really don't have much of an argument with what I stated because you have nothing really to back it up. So many people like to point fingers and say that Blizzard is the reason for the lousy games that have been released in recent yers because these companies try to make a game like WoW. Maybe that is the problem. Let Blizzard make their type of game and the other companies should make theirs instead of trying to emulate - you innovate.
CCP is doing it. Their game is nothing like WoW. Though to be honest it does fit with your list of bad things in MMORPG's. LOL! Still can't get over that one. Nice try though.
You're not really one to talk about reading comprehension, when you write a reply to something I never said.
I actually never once said I blamed anyone for copying anyone. I said they do copy and that WoW is a bad game. To blame WoW for other people's faults is kind of stupid. The only thing blame WoW for, is having a bad game that's so popular. They could have thrown some things in, that they had planned on in development, to make it a much better game than it is today and it wouldn't be any less popular.
I also haven't replied to most of the people who said my "list of bad mmos" either. But if you want a reply to that, it's simple. Everything has their faults, but only WoW has pulled off every single one so flawlessly. Each MMOs has it's ups and downs and there is only one major up I can see that WoW has, besides numbers, and that's it's Endgame PVE. The point of it isn't so great, but actually doing is done pretty well, even if they have only changed a few models/skills, levels, and skill sets since Vanilla.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot.
"Nice try though."
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I blame Real Madrid and FC Barcelona and their performance in the Champions League.
These clubs are responsible for the fact I no longer can enjoy the slow, muddy and inferior performance of amateurs.
Therefore I declare them "bad" football clubs.
They are a disgrace to the genre and are the reasons why people are spoiled to watch football.
I say WOW is the best game ever. You say the opposite.
Hands raised ... let's count ... and you can only vote if you pay ...
Sorry the majority wins. By democratic and paid vote, the public has spoken.
You can't have a bad game when you have a succesful game Sir. Because succesful is other than just popular