Originally posted by qazyman Am I the only one wanting to see a link to this. Either way it may be pointless but I don't think it's incompetent. It's to hard to say how it may change over time.
This may drive some players to player run corps with a lower tax rate. NPC's unlike, 1 player corps, have group chat so you can bs and talk to other people, but all and all I don't see it having much of an effect.
Incompetent on the other hand, would be forcing allainces to pay an 11% tax to NPC's so they could have a replace your mission ship for free program.
Originally posted by qazyman Incompetent on the other hand, would be forcing allainces to pay an 11% tax to NPC's so they could have a replace your mission ship for free program.
Wardeccing isone of more lame aspects of EVE, permits people fitted in PVP ships to hunt people trying to earn ISK in PVE only capable ships. Who's really not taking any risk here, the wardec'er or the wardec'ee?
i dont want to talk about if is lame or not
eve is not made to be fair and you know that
The fairness of it doesn't change the fact that its lame when game design is such that one side can't fight back due to their ship fittings. Didn't call for them to change it, but I laugh when Merc's try say they are good at PVP or something.
Its easy to hunt targets that never have a chance.... just don't think it proves much of anything.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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so you think it is unfair that people who fit for pvp have an advantage over those that dont?
if you are stupid enough to fly your mission ship around unscouted and unsupported during wartime without making any modifications to your fit to allow you to pvp then you deserve to lose it. we've been at war for the last 3 or so years.
Wardeccing isone of more lame aspects of EVE, permits people fitted in PVP ships to hunt people trying to earn ISK in PVE only capable ships. Who's really not taking any risk here, the wardec'er or the wardec'ee?
i dont want to talk about if is lame or not
eve is not made to be fair and you know that
The fairness of it doesn't change the fact that its lame when game design is such that one side can't fight back due to their ship fittings. Didn't call for them to change it, but I laugh when Merc's try say they are good at PVP or something.
Its easy to hunt targets that never have a chance.... just don't think it proves much of anything.
And I reiterate: being a big dumb helpless target is a choice.
11% isk tax rate aint that bad for wardec immunity.
^This
Take that immunity away and watch everyone join a real corp.
Or take away wardecs from corporations that don't want to opt in to them. (Let them pay Concord for a protection contract, only ennforceable in empire.
Wardeccing isone of more lame aspects of EVE, permits people fitted in PVP ships to hunt people trying to earn ISK in PVE only capable ships. Who's really not taking any risk here, the wardec'er or the wardec'ee?
EVE succeeds in part because it does allow the more industrial minded player options to minimize their risks, take all that away and you'll drop the player population by more than 1/2.
CCP has a good idea, tax people in NPC's corps because they shouldn't get a free ride, but the immunity should stand.
Im all for players being able to protect themselves, as long as they do it in a Player run corp. NPC corps let players mission run with no risk what so ever. You want a system that lets people pay for protection? you could do that already its call Merc corps.
Hire one when you get wardec'd and your golden.
Edit: why is wardec lame? because you want to be totally uninterupted while you mine or farm and make billions of Isk? fuck that! Everyone else in low sec and null sec has to watch their back 24/7 the least Empire carebears could do is fucking be at war everyonce in a while. You make 100-300m isk a day easily as a Level 4 mission runner it would do you some good to lose that OP CNR, Golem or Domi once ina while.
hmmm
i'm willing to bet you still don't know why most players in this game rarely if ever leave empire space
11% isk tax rate aint that bad for wardec immunity.
^This
Take that immunity away and watch everyone join a real corp.
Or take away wardecs from corporations that don't want to opt in to them. (Let them pay Concord for a protection contract, only ennforceable in empire.
Wardeccing isone of more lame aspects of EVE, permits people fitted in PVP ships to hunt people trying to earn ISK in PVE only capable ships. Who's really not taking any risk here, the wardec'er or the wardec'ee?
EVE succeeds in part because it does allow the more industrial minded player options to minimize their risks, take all that away and you'll drop the player population by more than 1/2.
CCP has a good idea, tax people in NPC's corps because they shouldn't get a free ride, but the immunity should stand.
Im all for players being able to protect themselves, as long as they do it in a Player run corp. NPC corps let players mission run with no risk what so ever. You want a system that lets people pay for protection? you could do that already its call Merc corps.
Hire one when you get wardec'd and your golden.
Edit: why is wardec lame? because you want to be totally uninterupted while you mine or farm and make billions of Isk? fuck that! Everyone else in low sec and null sec has to watch their back 24/7 the least Empire carebears could do is fucking be at war everyonce in a while. You make 100-300m isk a day easily as a Level 4 mission runner it would do you some good to lose that OP CNR, Golem or Domi once ina while.
hmmm
i'm willing to bet you still don't know why most players in this game rarely if ever leave empire space
Of course I do, Low risk, High earnings.
I have no issue with players wanting to stay in empire to avoid FFA pvp, Its balanced since Wardecs give them a bit of risk. its the bitches that stay in NPC corps that bother me.
Originally posted by gatheris hmmm i'm willing to bet you still don't know why most players in this game rarely if ever leave empire space
Of course I do, Low risk, High earnings.
I have no issue with players wanting to stay in empire to avoid FFA pvp, Its balanced since Wardecs give them a bit of risk. its the bitches that stay in NPC corps that bother me.
First of all most of those Bitches are in 0.0/low-sec. You have to realize that for every character in low-sec more and likely they have at least one other character in High-sec.
Wardec are a problem for 2 reasons:
1. NO-limit/purpose: face what are wardec's just a cost to some corp/alliance to be able to gank another corp/alliance. If wardecs actually had a purpose for them with a good clarified goal then it would be better. Rarely are wardecs actually used for a purpose, In fact i have never heard of them being used for anything besides Empire pirate corps and Empire Merc corps. If you want to be a big bad pirate go to low sec and get your nice little -10.0 patch and wear it with pride, I'll actually respect you. If your a merc corp go work for the big guys and actually fight.
2. Only favors the attackers: Lets be honest because of the complete and utter lack of direction in a war dec only favors the attacker. The attacker can figure out where a target operates and works before he wardecs, the defender has no clue. Once the fight begins the attacker has usually has at least a weeks worth of intel on where the corp operates all of its active members, The defender has to figure this out on the fly. With HICs the ability to war fit has become effectively moot.
End result is wardecs are FFA Empire pvp, this was most evidenced by the need for the "Privateer" nerf. If you want to start suggesting NPC corps as a target for wardecs then you first need a massive overhaul to the Wardec system so that the current Make all space 0.0 between you and another entitiy starts costing in the billions instead of millions per week.
By the way haven't been in a NPC corp while active for more then a few weeks in my 5+ years and currently sitting in 0.0 space if you care to think I'm trying to defend myself. I'm not its just wardecs are a broken and retarded system that currently favors people who want to act big but would get shut down quickly by anyone that actually is big.
Originally posted by gatheris hmmm i'm willing to bet you still don't know why most players in this game rarely if ever leave empire space
Of course I do, Low risk, High earnings.
I have no issue with players wanting to stay in empire to avoid FFA pvp, Its balanced since Wardecs give them a bit of risk. its the bitches that stay in NPC corps that bother me.
First of all most of those Bitches are in 0.0/low-sec. You have to realize that for every character in low-sec more and likely they have at least one other character in High-sec.
Wardec are a problem for 2 reasons:
1. NO-limit/purpose: face what are wardec's just a cost to some corp/alliance to be able to gank another corp/alliance. If wardecs actually had a purpose for them with a good clarified goal then it would be better. Rarely are wardecs actually used for a purpose, In fact i have never heard of them being used for anything besides Empire pirate corps and Empire Merc corps. If you want to be a big bad pirate go to low sec and get your nice little -10.0 patch and wear it with pride, I'll actually respect you. If your a merc corp go work for the big guys and actually fight.
2. Only favors the attackers: Lets be honest because of the complete and utter lack of direction in a war dec only favors the attacker. The attacker can figure out where a target operates and works before he wardecs, the defender has no clue. Once the fight begins the attacker has usually has at least a weeks worth of intel on where the corp operates all of its active members, The defender has to figure this out on the fly. With HICs the ability to war fit has become effectively moot.
End result is wardecs are FFA Empire pvp, this was most evidenced by the need for the "Privateer" nerf. If you want to start suggesting NPC corps as a target for wardecs then you first need a massive overhaul to the Wardec system so that the current Make all space 0.0 between you and another entitiy starts costing in the billions instead of millions per week.
By the way haven't been in a NPC corp while active for more then a few weeks in my 5+ years and currently sitting in 0.0 space if you care to think I'm trying to defend myself. I'm not its just wardecs are a broken and retarded system that currently favors people who want to act big but would get shut down quickly by anyone that actually is big.
Oh no worries bro, I have a huge bone to pick with the wardec system overall. I feel it needs a revamp or tweaks just like the bounty and mining systems in Eve.
That still doesn't change my way of thinking however. I feel in Eve everyone should have some type of risk, you should choose this level of risk by playing in 0.0, low or empire space but we all should have some.
Wardeccing isone of more lame aspects of EVE, permits people fitted in PVP ships to hunt people trying to earn ISK in PVE only capable ships. Who's really not taking any risk here, the wardec'er or the wardec'ee?
i dont want to talk about if is lame or not
eve is not made to be fair and you know that
The fairness of it doesn't change the fact that its lame when game design is such that one side can't fight back due to their ship fittings. Didn't call for them to change it, but I laugh when Merc's try say they are good at PVP or something.
Its easy to hunt targets that never have a chance.... just don't think it proves much of anything.
And I reiterate: being a big dumb helpless target is a choice.
With consequences.
It's the current wardec system that's dumb!
EVE is all about consequences even if high sec wardec are completely removed (which clearly can't happen). Saying that's a reason to keep the current system dosn't add up.
It's the majority of players that take part in HSWD's that are avoiding consequences. They want to pretend their PVP'ing without any of the risk. Protecting the integrity of EVE's PVP, protects the integrity of EVE. CCP need to find another way to make sure empire production capability cannot be monopolized. Something based on a business model.
Take that immunity away and watch everyone join a real corp.
Im all for players being able to protect themselves, as long as they do it in a Player run corp. NPC corps let players mission run with no risk what so ever.
Edit: why is wardec lame? because you want to be totally uninterupted while you mine or farm and make billions of Isk? fuck that! Everyone else in low sec and null sec has to watch their back 24/7 the least Empire carebears could do is fucking be at war everyonce in a while.
Of course I do, Low risk, High earnings.
I have no issue with players wanting to stay in empire to avoid FFA pvp, Its balanced since Wardecs give them a bit of risk. its the bitches that stay in NPC corps that bother me.
Immunity from wardecs ?since when do you need wardec to attack a player? You missed all suicide ganks i think .Low risk ? high sec actully is more riskier for someone using pimped ships you cant just watch local and know who is friendly or not .
Im sure im taking more risk when i logged my mission runner with 5b fitting even in high sec ,i dont want to hear all low risk crap ,when you undock a mission ship in a mission hub worth 6b come and talk to me about low risk (i make more isk/hr at 0.0)
Wardecs are ok and part of game but i cant understand this hate against mission runners and miners at high sec ,they are punishing themselves with low income already and target of suicede ganks .why is this hate?
Wardeccing isone of more lame aspects of EVE, permits people fitted in PVP ships to hunt people trying to earn ISK in PVE only capable ships. Who's really not taking any risk here, the wardec'er or the wardec'ee?
i dont want to talk about if is lame or not
eve is not made to be fair and you know that
The fairness of it doesn't change the fact that its lame when game design is such that one side can't fight back due to their ship fittings. Didn't call for them to change it, but I laugh when Merc's try say they are good at PVP or something.
Its easy to hunt targets that never have a chance.... just don't think it proves much of anything.
And I reiterate: being a big dumb helpless target is a choice.
With consequences.
It's the current wardec system that's dumb!
EVE is all about consequences even if high sec wardec are completely removed (which clearly can't happen). Saying that's a reason to keep the current system dosn't add up.
It's the majority of players that take part in HSWD's that are avoiding consequences. They want to pretend their PVP'ing without any of the risk. Protecting the integrity of EVE's PVP, protects the integrity of EVE. CCP need to find another way to make sure empire production capability cannot be monopolized. Something based on a business model.
Several of the posts above this one have made a great point, but this specifically drives it home.
Wardec'ers take almost no risk, they hunt big soft targets that they know can't beat them, and then try to say everyone has to face risk and consequences? Nonsense, man up and take some of your own first before you go pointing fingers at others.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Take that immunity away and watch everyone join a real corp.
Im all for players being able to protect themselves, as long as they do it in a Player run corp. NPC corps let players mission run with no risk what so ever.
Edit: why is wardec lame? because you want to be totally uninterupted while you mine or farm and make billions of Isk? fuck that! Everyone else in low sec and null sec has to watch their back 24/7 the least Empire carebears could do is fucking be at war everyonce in a while.
Of course I do, Low risk, High earnings.
I have no issue with players wanting to stay in empire to avoid FFA pvp, Its balanced since Wardecs give them a bit of risk. its the bitches that stay in NPC corps that bother me.
Immunity from wardecs ?since when do you need wardec to attack a player? You missed all suicide ganks i think .Low risk ? high sec actully is more riskier for someone using pimped ships you cant just watch local and know who is friendly or not .
Im sure im taking more risk when i logged my mission runner with 5b fitting even in high sec ,i dont want to hear all low risk crap ,when you undock a mission ship in a mission hub worth 6b come and talk to me about low risk (i make more isk/hr at 0.0)
Wardecs are ok and part of game but i cant understand this hate against mission runners and miners at high sec ,they are punishing themselves with low income already and target of suicede ganks .why is this hate?
Dude! You think your the only person mission running in faction ships with faction and officer mods? As for the amount of money you make in Empire compared to 0.0 I'm sorry but you should make a ton more isk in 0.0. Actually I still feel Any rock above Veld and any mission above a level 2 should be in low sec.
"When you undock a mission ship in a mission hub worth 6b come talk to me" Dude You are not special, grow some balls and add some real risk to your gameplay.
so being immune to wardecs isnt so great, because you can still be suicide ganked? wow, id never thought of that. you poor man in your unsafe highsec npc corp, it must be terrible.
wardeccing a target is not "risk free" for the deccing party, they run the same risks that the target corp does, they can have stuff blown up too.
so being immune to wardecs isnt so great, because you can still be suicide ganked? wow, id never thought of that. you poor man in your unsafe highsec npc corp, it must be terrible. wardeccing a target is not "risk free" for the deccing party, they run the same risks that the target corp does, they can have stuff blown up too.
Yeah, I lost about 100M in Datacores once flying them in a cheap cruiser that someone through was worth killing a 25M ship for. (Now I pick them up in heavily tanked BS's and BCer's)
As for wardecers risk, nonsense, for the most part they fit out PVP ships while their targets are normally fit in PVE ships.
I was in a large, carebear empire corp, and we'd get wardec'd all the time and the minute we'd come out in force, (up to 75 ships) even the baddest of the Merc corps would suddenly hop in station and play station camping games. (understandable of course, EVE's about winning, not honor)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
so being immune to wardecs isnt so great, because you can still be suicide ganked? wow, id never thought of that. you poor man in your unsafe highsec npc corp, it must be terrible. wardeccing a target is not "risk free" for the deccing party, they run the same risks that the target corp does, they can have stuff blown up too.
Yeah, I lost about 100M in Datacores once flying them in a cheap cruiser that someone through was worth killing a 25M ship for. (Now I pick them up in heavily tanked BS's and BCer's)
As for wardecers risk, nonsense, for the most part they fit out PVP ships while their targets are normally fit in PVE ships.
I was in a large, carebear empire corp, and we'd get wardec'd all the time and the minute we'd come out in force, (up to 75 ships) even the baddest of the Merc corps would suddenly hop in station and play station camping games. (understandable of course, EVE's about winning, not honor)
But they certainly didn't risk much of anything.
If people in a wardecced corp are flying PvE-fitted ships, they deserve to lose them. That's a pretty realistic outcome for someone making a choice that bad.
As for you guys facing down the mercs.... well done, but yeah exactly. People can do that instead of complaining that they did something as insanely thick as go mining while war-dec'd and consequently lost their ship. What's the problem here? I'm just not seeing it.
Likewise with the suicide ganking; it's extremely easy to make sure you never get ganked. You did get ganked, you worked out what you did wrong, you now do it right. Therefore you have a comparitive advantage over people too lazy or foolhardy to apply the proper methods. Remove ganking, and you lose that hard-earned, well-deserved advantage. You're reduced to the same level as some AFKing idiot.
The tax rate change is a good thing. People should be encouraged to join player corps instead of being rewarded monetarily for staying in NPC corps. However, all the people who want NPC corps to be wardec(able) just want easy targets. Ships which are fit with expensive modules designed to take on rats who don't have a chance is hell against a PvP fit ship. That would last all of a month before new players stopped joining the game and a large portion of the population quit because they were being forced to play a game that they no longer enjoy.
Try seeing the game past the limited view of your own targeting reticle.
If people in a wardecced corp are flying PvE-fitted ships, they deserve to lose them. That's a pretty realistic outcome for someone making a choice that bad. As for you guys facing down the mercs.... well done, but yeah exactly. People can do that instead of complaining that they did something as insanely thick as go mining while war-dec'd and consequently lost their ship. What's the problem here? I'm just not seeing it.
The problem is wardeccing is a broken system. There are no real limitations to it. The whole concept behind wardeccing is that there is a real reason you are going to war with an enemy corporation. Concord examines your claim, and then sanctions that war based on the validity of that claim. That is not how it works in Eve Online. In Eve you can go to war for absolutely no reason at all, you can go to war against a corporation that poses absolutely no threat to you what-so-ever, and you can uphold that war declaration for as long as your willing to spend the (minimal) isk and time to maintain it. Resolutions in a wardec isn't reached because of some real goal being obtained, its reached when the side becomes so bored with beating the piss out of the other(generally much less powerful) corp that they choose not to re-apply to continue the war.
A small(er) corporation has no real defense against a larger or more experienced corporation. Sure, you say if you are wardecced that you should be flying an appropriate ship... and I agree with that. The problem is that how is a smaller corporation suppose to fund that war. They can't run mission fits because they'll be hunted down, they can't mine or haul because they'll be hunted down, they can't do jack shit because they'll be hunted down. Ninety percent of the time they'll be spending there time spinning with a station camp sitting outside. That is not fun, for either side. And its a damned ugly side of the game to show to a new player in an NPC corp. Hell, if that had happened to me four years ago I'd have said piss on this game. Maybe you hire mercs, but thats a costly scenario that can only be (financially) maintained for so long.
There needs to be real limits on the wardec mechanics before you even think of introducing them to NPC corps. Hell, there needs to be real limitations on the wardec mechanics as they stand now.
1)The financial costs should be high(er), and should scale with your corps overall size.
2) There should be limitations on how large one corp can be when declaring war on a corp of a smaller size. Its very disheartening to be flying with a bunch of really cool guys in a startup corp, and then about the time you really start doing well.... you get wardecced by a much larger corp(or multiple corps)... for weeks or months on end... and you just don't have the capital or the manpower to do anything about it. So you end up having to either dissolve or merge with another corp which basically ruins that "friendly small corp atmosphere".
3. There should be a zone limitation for the war, that should scale in cost with the size of your declared "warzone". Targeting and destroying shuttles should be considered illegal, even against a pilot whom has a wardec against them. This allows you to "push" a rival corp out of a system or set of systems, but still allows that rival corp to continue to actually play the game by taking a shuttle to a different system where you can't legally attack them. Again, watching your ship spin in a station isn't fun for anyone.
The way things are, small corps or newbie corps just get smashed by the wardec mechanics. You are pushed into a situation where you have to either
A) join an established large corp
or
stay in the npc corp
Those large corps generally treat newer players like an asset. You are basically slave labor that has to bend to the will of your leadership. Granted, there are some good corps out there that aren't like that, but they are the rarer find.
And so most people stay in the NPC corps because of the freedom and safety it provides. But the real criminal in this isn't the NPC corps, its the wardec mechanics.
Comments
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1181766
Um..how would you call proposing completely pointless feature then?
Thks for the link, I couldn't find it.
This may drive some players to player run corps with a lower tax rate. NPC's unlike, 1 player corps, have group chat so you can bs and talk to other people, but all and all I don't see it having much of an effect.
Incompetent on the other hand, would be forcing allainces to pay an 11% tax to NPC's so they could have a replace your mission ship for free program.
11 percent tax for being unwardeccable? seems fair to me.
making starter corps wardecable is a bad idea, the idea is not to gank newbies, encourage them to join proper corps and THEN gank them.
I like both idea: the tax, and the war dec ready npc corp. I'm a Privateer
Wardeccing isone of more lame aspects of EVE, permits people fitted in PVP ships to hunt people trying to earn ISK in PVE only capable ships. Who's really not taking any risk here, the wardec'er or the wardec'ee?
i dont want to talk about if is lame or not
eve is not made to be fair and you know that
The fairness of it doesn't change the fact that its lame when game design is such that one side can't fight back due to their ship fittings. Didn't call for them to change it, but I laugh when Merc's try say they are good at PVP or something.
Its easy to hunt targets that never have a chance.... just don't think it proves much of anything.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
so you think it is unfair that people who fit for pvp have an advantage over those that dont?
if you are stupid enough to fly your mission ship around unscouted and unsupported during wartime without making any modifications to your fit to allow you to pvp then you deserve to lose it. we've been at war for the last 3 or so years.
Wardeccing isone of more lame aspects of EVE, permits people fitted in PVP ships to hunt people trying to earn ISK in PVE only capable ships. Who's really not taking any risk here, the wardec'er or the wardec'ee?
i dont want to talk about if is lame or not
eve is not made to be fair and you know that
The fairness of it doesn't change the fact that its lame when game design is such that one side can't fight back due to their ship fittings. Didn't call for them to change it, but I laugh when Merc's try say they are good at PVP or something.
Its easy to hunt targets that never have a chance.... just don't think it proves much of anything.
And I reiterate: being a big dumb helpless target is a choice.
With consequences.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
^This
Take that immunity away and watch everyone join a real corp.
Or take away wardecs from corporations that don't want to opt in to them. (Let them pay Concord for a protection contract, only ennforceable in empire.
Wardeccing isone of more lame aspects of EVE, permits people fitted in PVP ships to hunt people trying to earn ISK in PVE only capable ships. Who's really not taking any risk here, the wardec'er or the wardec'ee?
EVE succeeds in part because it does allow the more industrial minded player options to minimize their risks, take all that away and you'll drop the player population by more than 1/2.
CCP has a good idea, tax people in NPC's corps because they shouldn't get a free ride, but the immunity should stand.
Im all for players being able to protect themselves, as long as they do it in a Player run corp. NPC corps let players mission run with no risk what so ever. You want a system that lets people pay for protection? you could do that already its call Merc corps.
Hire one when you get wardec'd and your golden.
Edit: why is wardec lame? because you want to be totally uninterupted while you mine or farm and make billions of Isk? fuck that! Everyone else in low sec and null sec has to watch their back 24/7 the least Empire carebears could do is fucking be at war everyonce in a while. You make 100-300m isk a day easily as a Level 4 mission runner it would do you some good to lose that OP CNR, Golem or Domi once ina while.
hmmm
i'm willing to bet you still don't know why most players in this game rarely if ever leave empire space
^This
Take that immunity away and watch everyone join a real corp.
Or take away wardecs from corporations that don't want to opt in to them. (Let them pay Concord for a protection contract, only ennforceable in empire.
Wardeccing isone of more lame aspects of EVE, permits people fitted in PVP ships to hunt people trying to earn ISK in PVE only capable ships. Who's really not taking any risk here, the wardec'er or the wardec'ee?
EVE succeeds in part because it does allow the more industrial minded player options to minimize their risks, take all that away and you'll drop the player population by more than 1/2.
CCP has a good idea, tax people in NPC's corps because they shouldn't get a free ride, but the immunity should stand.
Im all for players being able to protect themselves, as long as they do it in a Player run corp. NPC corps let players mission run with no risk what so ever. You want a system that lets people pay for protection? you could do that already its call Merc corps.
Hire one when you get wardec'd and your golden.
Edit: why is wardec lame? because you want to be totally uninterupted while you mine or farm and make billions of Isk? fuck that! Everyone else in low sec and null sec has to watch their back 24/7 the least Empire carebears could do is fucking be at war everyonce in a while. You make 100-300m isk a day easily as a Level 4 mission runner it would do you some good to lose that OP CNR, Golem or Domi once ina while.
hmmm
i'm willing to bet you still don't know why most players in this game rarely if ever leave empire space
Of course I do, Low risk, High earnings.
I have no issue with players wanting to stay in empire to avoid FFA pvp, Its balanced since Wardecs give them a bit of risk. its the bitches that stay in NPC corps that bother me.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Of course I do, Low risk, High earnings.
I have no issue with players wanting to stay in empire to avoid FFA pvp, Its balanced since Wardecs give them a bit of risk. its the bitches that stay in NPC corps that bother me.
First of all most of those Bitches are in 0.0/low-sec. You have to realize that for every character in low-sec more and likely they have at least one other character in High-sec.
Wardec are a problem for 2 reasons:
1. NO-limit/purpose: face what are wardec's just a cost to some corp/alliance to be able to gank another corp/alliance. If wardecs actually had a purpose for them with a good clarified goal then it would be better. Rarely are wardecs actually used for a purpose, In fact i have never heard of them being used for anything besides Empire pirate corps and Empire Merc corps. If you want to be a big bad pirate go to low sec and get your nice little -10.0 patch and wear it with pride, I'll actually respect you. If your a merc corp go work for the big guys and actually fight.
2. Only favors the attackers: Lets be honest because of the complete and utter lack of direction in a war dec only favors the attacker. The attacker can figure out where a target operates and works before he wardecs, the defender has no clue. Once the fight begins the attacker has usually has at least a weeks worth of intel on where the corp operates all of its active members, The defender has to figure this out on the fly. With HICs the ability to war fit has become effectively moot.
End result is wardecs are FFA Empire pvp, this was most evidenced by the need for the "Privateer" nerf. If you want to start suggesting NPC corps as a target for wardecs then you first need a massive overhaul to the Wardec system so that the current Make all space 0.0 between you and another entitiy starts costing in the billions instead of millions per week.
By the way haven't been in a NPC corp while active for more then a few weeks in my 5+ years and currently sitting in 0.0 space if you care to think I'm trying to defend myself. I'm not its just wardecs are a broken and retarded system that currently favors people who want to act big but would get shut down quickly by anyone that actually is big.
Of course I do, Low risk, High earnings.
I have no issue with players wanting to stay in empire to avoid FFA pvp, Its balanced since Wardecs give them a bit of risk. its the bitches that stay in NPC corps that bother me.
First of all most of those Bitches are in 0.0/low-sec. You have to realize that for every character in low-sec more and likely they have at least one other character in High-sec.
Wardec are a problem for 2 reasons:
1. NO-limit/purpose: face what are wardec's just a cost to some corp/alliance to be able to gank another corp/alliance. If wardecs actually had a purpose for them with a good clarified goal then it would be better. Rarely are wardecs actually used for a purpose, In fact i have never heard of them being used for anything besides Empire pirate corps and Empire Merc corps. If you want to be a big bad pirate go to low sec and get your nice little -10.0 patch and wear it with pride, I'll actually respect you. If your a merc corp go work for the big guys and actually fight.
2. Only favors the attackers: Lets be honest because of the complete and utter lack of direction in a war dec only favors the attacker. The attacker can figure out where a target operates and works before he wardecs, the defender has no clue. Once the fight begins the attacker has usually has at least a weeks worth of intel on where the corp operates all of its active members, The defender has to figure this out on the fly. With HICs the ability to war fit has become effectively moot.
End result is wardecs are FFA Empire pvp, this was most evidenced by the need for the "Privateer" nerf. If you want to start suggesting NPC corps as a target for wardecs then you first need a massive overhaul to the Wardec system so that the current Make all space 0.0 between you and another entitiy starts costing in the billions instead of millions per week.
By the way haven't been in a NPC corp while active for more then a few weeks in my 5+ years and currently sitting in 0.0 space if you care to think I'm trying to defend myself. I'm not its just wardecs are a broken and retarded system that currently favors people who want to act big but would get shut down quickly by anyone that actually is big.
Oh no worries bro, I have a huge bone to pick with the wardec system overall. I feel it needs a revamp or tweaks just like the bounty and mining systems in Eve.
That still doesn't change my way of thinking however. I feel in Eve everyone should have some type of risk, you should choose this level of risk by playing in 0.0, low or empire space but we all should have some.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Wardeccing isone of more lame aspects of EVE, permits people fitted in PVP ships to hunt people trying to earn ISK in PVE only capable ships. Who's really not taking any risk here, the wardec'er or the wardec'ee?
i dont want to talk about if is lame or not
eve is not made to be fair and you know that
The fairness of it doesn't change the fact that its lame when game design is such that one side can't fight back due to their ship fittings. Didn't call for them to change it, but I laugh when Merc's try say they are good at PVP or something.
Its easy to hunt targets that never have a chance.... just don't think it proves much of anything.
And I reiterate: being a big dumb helpless target is a choice.
With consequences.
It's the current wardec system that's dumb!
EVE is all about consequences even if high sec wardec are completely removed (which clearly can't happen). Saying that's a reason to keep the current system dosn't add up.
It's the majority of players that take part in HSWD's that are avoiding consequences. They want to pretend their PVP'ing without any of the risk. Protecting the integrity of EVE's PVP, protects the integrity of EVE. CCP need to find another way to make sure empire production capability cannot be monopolized. Something based on a business model.
^This
Take that immunity away and watch everyone join a real corp.
Im all for players being able to protect themselves, as long as they do it in a Player run corp. NPC corps let players mission run with no risk what so ever.
Edit: why is wardec lame? because you want to be totally uninterupted while you mine or farm and make billions of Isk? fuck that! Everyone else in low sec and null sec has to watch their back 24/7 the least Empire carebears could do is fucking be at war everyonce in a while.
Of course I do, Low risk, High earnings.
I have no issue with players wanting to stay in empire to avoid FFA pvp, Its balanced since Wardecs give them a bit of risk. its the bitches that stay in NPC corps that bother me.
Immunity from wardecs ?since when do you need wardec to attack a player? You missed all suicide ganks i think .Low risk
? high sec actully is more riskier for someone using pimped ships you cant just watch local and know who is friendly or not .
Im sure im taking more risk when i logged my mission runner with 5b fitting
even in high sec ,i dont want to hear all low risk crap ,when you undock a mission ship in a mission hub worth 6b come and talk to me about low risk (i make more isk/hr at 0.0)
Wardecs are ok and part of game but i cant understand this hate against mission runners and miners at high sec ,they are punishing themselves with low income already and target of suicede ganks .why is this hate?
Perhaps make it that an NPC corp can only be wardeced by only another NPC corp?
Wardeccing isone of more lame aspects of EVE, permits people fitted in PVP ships to hunt people trying to earn ISK in PVE only capable ships. Who's really not taking any risk here, the wardec'er or the wardec'ee?
i dont want to talk about if is lame or not
eve is not made to be fair and you know that
The fairness of it doesn't change the fact that its lame when game design is such that one side can't fight back due to their ship fittings. Didn't call for them to change it, but I laugh when Merc's try say they are good at PVP or something.
Its easy to hunt targets that never have a chance.... just don't think it proves much of anything.
And I reiterate: being a big dumb helpless target is a choice.
With consequences.
It's the current wardec system that's dumb!
EVE is all about consequences even if high sec wardec are completely removed (which clearly can't happen). Saying that's a reason to keep the current system dosn't add up.
It's the majority of players that take part in HSWD's that are avoiding consequences. They want to pretend their PVP'ing without any of the risk. Protecting the integrity of EVE's PVP, protects the integrity of EVE. CCP need to find another way to make sure empire production capability cannot be monopolized. Something based on a business model.
Several of the posts above this one have made a great point, but this specifically drives it home.
Wardec'ers take almost no risk, they hunt big soft targets that they know can't beat them, and then try to say everyone has to face risk and consequences? Nonsense, man up and take some of your own first before you go pointing fingers at others.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
^This
Take that immunity away and watch everyone join a real corp.
Im all for players being able to protect themselves, as long as they do it in a Player run corp. NPC corps let players mission run with no risk what so ever.
Edit: why is wardec lame? because you want to be totally uninterupted while you mine or farm and make billions of Isk? fuck that! Everyone else in low sec and null sec has to watch their back 24/7 the least Empire carebears could do is fucking be at war everyonce in a while.
Of course I do, Low risk, High earnings.
I have no issue with players wanting to stay in empire to avoid FFA pvp, Its balanced since Wardecs give them a bit of risk. its the bitches that stay in NPC corps that bother me.
Immunity from wardecs ?since when do you need wardec to attack a player? You missed all suicide ganks i think .Low risk
? high sec actully is more riskier for someone using pimped ships you cant just watch local and know who is friendly or not .
Im sure im taking more risk when i logged my mission runner with 5b fitting
even in high sec ,i dont want to hear all low risk crap ,when you undock a mission ship in a mission hub worth 6b come and talk to me about low risk (i make more isk/hr at 0.0)
Wardecs are ok and part of game but i cant understand this hate against mission runners and miners at high sec ,they are punishing themselves with low income already and target of suicede ganks .why is this hate?
Dude! You think your the only person mission running in faction ships with faction and officer mods? As for the amount of money you make in Empire compared to 0.0 I'm sorry but you should make a ton more isk in 0.0. Actually I still feel Any rock above Veld and any mission above a level 2 should be in low sec.
"When you undock a mission ship in a mission hub worth 6b come talk to me" Dude You are not special, grow some balls and add some real risk to your gameplay.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
so being immune to wardecs isnt so great, because you can still be suicide ganked? wow, id never thought of that. you poor man in your unsafe highsec npc corp, it must be terrible.
wardeccing a target is not "risk free" for the deccing party, they run the same risks that the target corp does, they can have stuff blown up too.
Yeah, I lost about 100M in Datacores once flying them in a cheap cruiser that someone through was worth killing a 25M ship for. (Now I pick them up in heavily tanked BS's and BCer's)
As for wardecers risk, nonsense, for the most part they fit out PVP ships while their targets are normally fit in PVE ships.
I was in a large, carebear empire corp, and we'd get wardec'd all the time and the minute we'd come out in force, (up to 75 ships) even the baddest of the Merc corps would suddenly hop in station and play station camping games. (understandable of course, EVE's about winning, not honor)
But they certainly didn't risk much of anything.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yeah, I lost about 100M in Datacores once flying them in a cheap cruiser that someone through was worth killing a 25M ship for. (Now I pick them up in heavily tanked BS's and BCer's)
As for wardecers risk, nonsense, for the most part they fit out PVP ships while their targets are normally fit in PVE ships.
I was in a large, carebear empire corp, and we'd get wardec'd all the time and the minute we'd come out in force, (up to 75 ships) even the baddest of the Merc corps would suddenly hop in station and play station camping games. (understandable of course, EVE's about winning, not honor)
But they certainly didn't risk much of anything.
If people in a wardecced corp are flying PvE-fitted ships, they deserve to lose them. That's a pretty realistic outcome for someone making a choice that bad.
As for you guys facing down the mercs.... well done, but yeah exactly. People can do that instead of complaining that they did something as insanely thick as go mining while war-dec'd and consequently lost their ship. What's the problem here? I'm just not seeing it.
Likewise with the suicide ganking; it's extremely easy to make sure you never get ganked. You did get ganked, you worked out what you did wrong, you now do it right. Therefore you have a comparitive advantage over people too lazy or foolhardy to apply the proper methods. Remove ganking, and you lose that hard-earned, well-deserved advantage. You're reduced to the same level as some AFKing idiot.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
so you think that you should be able to opt out of eve pvp? just because you're in a carebear alliance means that nobody should be allowed to dec you?
you could join an npc corp, and be immune to wardecs.
tahdah!
The tax rate change is a good thing. People should be encouraged to join player corps instead of being rewarded monetarily for staying in NPC corps. However, all the people who want NPC corps to be wardec(able) just want easy targets. Ships which are fit with expensive modules designed to take on rats who don't have a chance is hell against a PvP fit ship. That would last all of a month before new players stopped joining the game and a large portion of the population quit because they were being forced to play a game that they no longer enjoy.
Try seeing the game past the limited view of your own targeting reticle.
The problem is wardeccing is a broken system. There are no real limitations to it. The whole concept behind wardeccing is that there is a real reason you are going to war with an enemy corporation. Concord examines your claim, and then sanctions that war based on the validity of that claim. That is not how it works in Eve Online. In Eve you can go to war for absolutely no reason at all, you can go to war against a corporation that poses absolutely no threat to you what-so-ever, and you can uphold that war declaration for as long as your willing to spend the (minimal) isk and time to maintain it. Resolutions in a wardec isn't reached because of some real goal being obtained, its reached when the side becomes so bored with beating the piss out of the other(generally much less powerful) corp that they choose not to re-apply to continue the war.
A small(er) corporation has no real defense against a larger or more experienced corporation. Sure, you say if you are wardecced that you should be flying an appropriate ship... and I agree with that. The problem is that how is a smaller corporation suppose to fund that war. They can't run mission fits because they'll be hunted down, they can't mine or haul because they'll be hunted down, they can't do jack shit because they'll be hunted down. Ninety percent of the time they'll be spending there time spinning with a station camp sitting outside. That is not fun, for either side. And its a damned ugly side of the game to show to a new player in an NPC corp. Hell, if that had happened to me four years ago I'd have said piss on this game. Maybe you hire mercs, but thats a costly scenario that can only be (financially) maintained for so long.
There needs to be real limits on the wardec mechanics before you even think of introducing them to NPC corps. Hell, there needs to be real limitations on the wardec mechanics as they stand now.
1)The financial costs should be high(er), and should scale with your corps overall size.
2) There should be limitations on how large one corp can be when declaring war on a corp of a smaller size. Its very disheartening to be flying with a bunch of really cool guys in a startup corp, and then about the time you really start doing well.... you get wardecced by a much larger corp(or multiple corps)... for weeks or months on end... and you just don't have the capital or the manpower to do anything about it. So you end up having to either dissolve or merge with another corp which basically ruins that "friendly small corp atmosphere".
3. There should be a zone limitation for the war, that should scale in cost with the size of your declared "warzone". Targeting and destroying shuttles should be considered illegal, even against a pilot whom has a wardec against them. This allows you to "push" a rival corp out of a system or set of systems, but still allows that rival corp to continue to actually play the game by taking a shuttle to a different system where you can't legally attack them. Again, watching your ship spin in a station isn't fun for anyone.
The way things are, small corps or newbie corps just get smashed by the wardec mechanics. You are pushed into a situation where you have to either
A) join an established large corp
or
Those large corps generally treat newer players like an asset. You are basically slave labor that has to bend to the will of your leadership. Granted, there are some good corps out there that aren't like that, but they are the rarer find.
And so most people stay in the NPC corps because of the freedom and safety it provides. But the real criminal in this isn't the NPC corps, its the wardec mechanics.
Why not just fucking let me leave the NPC corps? I don't wanna join a player corp cause they all suck but I don't wanna be in the NPC corp.
You could make a corp with just you in it.
There ya go.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum