You might read the mission dialogues for the first few hours, but after that you stop caring why this guy needs his medkit from his old burned farmhouse that is overrun by giant mutated chickens.
lmfao. totally agree.
The first few hours? I applaud your patience. I stopped reading after the first few minutes. The first quest I received was to kill 10 bandits, I immediately stopped reading.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Game offers an open world to play in and it rewards you for doing stuff, not just doing quests.
For example completing a quest typically give a reward similar to 3 to 5 kill or 2-3 good crafting nodes or 1 medium difficulty completed crafting (a large crafting project like a car will give you XP equaling up to 15 quests).
Compare that to CO where a 5-10 min quest equal 3-400 mobs killed, same numbers in AoC.
You can improve yourself simply by interaction with your enviroment in a fashion you like and that is the kind of freedom that attracts me to this game so much. Also you really have a choice in how you design your character, there are many different ways to make a char so many in fact that even a 1.5 month after release there is no cookie cutter builds appearing at all, not even suggestions.
Remember that yes you only have 9 skills at start, but that wont last. From S2+ you begin to get access to all the mutation skills and then you never ever have enough APs.
Only thing that bugs me a little is levels themselves, the levels only changes caps on skills and stats so I can't really see why they were necessary, those caps could have been implemented differently.
The game also restrict players, but in a good way. The game create freedom but avoid chaos. There is FFA PvP in the PvP areas but if you don't want to PvP you can just avoid those areas (getting increasingly difficult at higher lvls though). This mean you avoid random ganking and only have PvP when people seek out PvP and that is a VERY VERY wise design decision, FFA PvP generally only attract the worst gamers out there.
The same about player looting, thank god its not there. This is a feature wanted by people who want to hurt others in PvP and not just have a good match. Its often the same players who love FFA PvP everywhere so they can annoy and gank people who can't defend themselves and then its an increased bonus for them to loot the people they have cowardly ganked. So no fun for those ****holes in this game and be thankful for that. As an old anti ganker in daoc I have a strong hate for people who like to gank "greys", they are scum and don't deserve to even play MMOs. FE denies them their petty fun and that is a big + for the game.
Last housing, the world is an empty wasteland with ruined towns spread out. It would totally destroy the mood to have houses build at random points. Instead do like we plan to do in my guild. Select a PvP town and decide "that one is going to be ours permanently!"
All in all FE has found the great middle way. They have created a game with freedom of choice and a living open game world, with serious PvP goals and battle objectives, yet they have avoided the elements that make "pure" themeparks so unpopular like FFA ganking, player looting and to a lesser degree random houses spread over a pristine landscape.
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
Some people, such as the 32th (now deleted) poster in this thread, should learn to read first before replying. I did not say that it's good or bad that there is or isnt full body loot, thousands of missions, whether it's good that's it is or isnt sandbox or themepark or whatever. I summarized my impressions that the game feels and plays rather like a theme park. C- rating is my very personal subjective opinion based on the fact that I didn't like the combat nor the mission oriented gameplay.
Has any game, ever had anything besides missions and "grinding" to advance your character (be it skills or XP)?
Does anyone, who ever complain about "too many missions", "too mission-oriented", or just the same, "too much grind" have ANY idea about how ELSE can a character advance in a game?
MMO's are about many things, but one main point is: advancement. If there is no advancement, most people will not enjoy.
Once again: besides missions and grinding (be it faction, crafting, raids, PVP, you name it), there is NO way in ANY game that helps you develop your character.
Complaining about either "too many mission" or "too much grind, not enough mission" in ANY game is plain silly.
A good game will have options for both, as simply there is no other way. A real good game will make you feel you do not lose anything whether you choose only to do missions, or you choose to ignore them altogether.
The extra AP's in FE for missions are not compulsory. To make it more comprenehsible: raid gear in WOW is not compulsory.
Saying that, and complaining about the AP points that you can get through missions in FE is exactly the same as complaining about the raid grind you need to do in WOW to get that legendary shiny sword. Do both make your character better? Yes. Are they useful? Of course. Do you need to put effort in it? Absolutely. Are they compulsory? Of course not.
I'm sorry, but all those statements saying "too mission oriented", "you have to do missions" etc. are completely void. No, yo do NOT need to do them.
People should eventually learn to play games for fun, and only play those parts of them that they enjoy. Simple as that.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Please Donnie, this applies to you as well apparently. Before reacting to my posts, read them first. Especially 27th post where I further explained why I don't like the mission oriented gameplay in FE.
I'm bored to death after 100 hours. I come from Asheron's Call (one of the first true sandbox games) and FE just seems very linear to me right now with not much to do. I'm bored and don't think I'm going to continue my subscription.
Man OP aren't you sensitive? hahah. By reporting me you just proved my point.
Darkfall is that way ----->, i don't care what you mean by mentioning full body looting because your final score includes it as one of the factors that you decided to give it -C. I despise FFA PVP crowd. I have played Darkfall for few months and they are the worst bunch of players you can ever meet. They feed on themselves till they destroy the community and move on to next MMO to moan and cry about lack of full body loot and yada yada.
FE is not what you are looking for, so yes it bothers me that you give FE -C on basis of something which was never a part of original design.
The extra AP's in FE for missions are not compulsory. To make it more comprenehsible: raid gear in WOW is not compulsory. Saying that, and complaining about the AP points that you can get through missions in FE is exactly the same as complaining about the raid grind you need to do in WOW to get that legendary shiny sword. Do both make your character better? Yes. Are they useful? Of course. Do you need to put effort in it? Absolutely. Are they compulsory? Of course not. DB
This isn't quite true. They may not be compulsory but they are absolutely necessary. For many character builds those extra AP are necessary and they're damn useful in any build. In much of the PvP you will be at such a disadvantage without them you'll not be able to participate effectively. 20% of the AP attainable in the game can only be won by doing specific missions. That's a very significant fraction of the total. Many of those will be missions designed to be far below the level a player will have by the time he gets to them. It's a serious flaw in the game. Were it only a few mission chains it wouldn't matter but we're talking about 200+ mission chains here. I like the missions and will probably run every one with at least one character but it's easy to see how someone could find it unpalatable.
Instead of putting the extra AP missions in the starter towns they should have been in the hubs and there should have been far fewer of them. Possibly as little as 5% of the total and spread evenly throughout the sectors.
You did not get my point.
It is NOT absolutely necessary to have the best über-build to play and to have fun. It is not necessary to PVP to enjoy the game. All these are OPTIONS, not vital issues that you *must* do to enjoy the game. Quite the opposite.
Hope it's clearer now...
You also wrote this "Many of those will be missions designed to be far below the level a player will have by the time he gets to them. It's a serious flaw in the game".
Not true. It's not a flaw. If you wish to have ALL the AP you can get in this game, you will have to work for it, invest time in it. You will not get any other rewards, and also you will not advance your character XP-wise during those lower level missions. But you have decided (meaning: nobody ever forced you) that you need that extra AP, didn't you? If so, grind your teeth and take the trip.
Or, you might as well decide, that while you're there, you actually read those stories behind the quests, and who knows, you might enjoy them? You know, I usually have 50-100 unspent AP for my character, since I really, really don't care about advancing my character. A quest with no XP just as much fun for me, as a yellow one. I'm not saying anyone else should do the same way, but I assume I'm not alone, so this system is hardly flawed.
On the contrary I personally think that this system is perfectly fair, and by NO means is it flawed.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Man OP aren't you sensitive? hahah. By reporting me you just proved my point.
Darkfall is that way ----->, i don't care what you mean by mentioning full body looting because your final score includes it as one of the factors that you decided to give it -C. I despise FFA PVP crowd. I have played Darkfall for few months and they are the worst bunch of players you can ever meet. They feed on themselves till they destroy the community and move on to next MMO to moan and cry about lack of full body loot and yada yada. FE is not what you are looking for, so yes it bothers me that you give FE -C on basis of something which was never a part of original design.
You came here without reading my post, telling me to shup and that I'm a sad loser, and now wonder why you got reported?
I replied to you already
"Some people, such as the 32th (now deleted) poster in this thread, should learn to read first before replying. I did not say that it's good or bad that there is or isnt full body loot, thousands of missions, whether it's good that's it is or isnt sandbox or themepark or whatever. I summarized my impressions that the game feels and plays rather like a theme park.(which alone doesn't mean whether it's good or not - added for clarification)C- rating is my very personal subjective opinion based on the fact that I didn't like the combat nor the mission oriented gameplay."
Please Donnie, this applies to you as well apparently. Before reacting to my posts, read them first. Especially 27th post where I further explained why I don't like the mission oriented gameplay in FE.
Well, you DID imply that the game is mission-oriented, and I certainly disagree on this. Also, my post was not only directed to you, but to those, who actually complain about "too many missions", or basically about any options in any games.
Usually those people complain just as loud when they feel that there are not enough options in any certain game :DD
DB
PS: for details on how and why do I not feel FE to be mission-oriented, you check my reply to zymurgeist.
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Graphics: B+ I rate the graphics above average. There's a lot of immersion. I like the fact that there's wasteland everywhere, burned houses, car wrecks, ruined pillars, cracked roads etc. This realization of the post-apocalyptic world has more serious mood and is closer to Fallout 1/2, than the jokey version in Fallout 3. It has a lot of Mad Max flavour. Animations, I can't really speak of. I have this weird gift of not noticing good or bad animations. Others say the animations are poor, I think they're OK. Character Development: C In my opinion, that's one of the things that went wrong with the game. Sandbox is not defined by no classes - rather by no levels. Fallen Earth has levels, but no classes. Which means, there's still an obvious level progression - you travel from town and town, each serves as a different level hub. At level 10 you will not be able to kill level 20 as anywhere else. Additionally, the class-less system in FE is poorly implemented. There are 9 skills (rifles, pistols, melee, dodge, armor use..) 8 attributes (strength, coordination, dexterity, perception..) that you improve. Then there are 9 tradeskills which levels automatically as you use them, and then there are mutations which you start to improve in sector 2. The problem with the system is, that it doesn't really allow better customization than class system. Of course you can severly gimp yourself and spend points for crap. But if we consider the best builds, there's only a few. The problem is that each faction gives you special certain ultimate power if you have a combination of some skills -> there's 6 factions -> and logically, if you want to have a decent character, you need to be in one of the faction, and then hope you took the right skills for the faction ultimate power, otherwise you won't get it. It's a combination of a few skills and mutations that has to be maxed and they are not mention anywhere in advance. Closing words about customization, there's not more choices really for a player as he levels up than in class-like system. Additionally, you can pretty much gimp the character if you spend a few points wrongly (each point wrongly spent could be used somewhere else to improve something you're using). Mission/Quest System: D- 5500 in game missions is another strong argument to say that FE is a theme park mmo. Sector 1, there's around 10 starting towns, then there's three towns for levels 6-10, two towns 11-14, etc.. Everytime you get to the town for the first town, you run from NPC to NPC and take around 15 new missions. These missions are not final -> you complete one, you get another. They are chained to an extreme and just go on and on and on. You are sent to a camp to kill 10 mobs, you run back, the NPC then send you to kill a different 10 mobs in the same camp, then you get to kill the boss (still in the same camp) and this cycle never ends. You might read the mission dialogues for the first few hours, but after that you stop caring why this guy needs his medkit from his old burned farmhouse that is overrun by giant mutated chickens. In addition, everything in the game is run by the missions. Most of the good crafting schematics are given as a mission reward. Then there are AP (points you use to improve your character) you also get by doing certain missions. For the best character you basically have to run through every starting town to do its AP missions (without a guide, that's a chore because you can't see whether the mission will give you an AP or not, because it's usually part of a 15 mission chain). Factions give you missions for better gear. PvP wins opens up certain zones with NPCs full of new missions. Of course, there are also repeatable missions. Fallen Earth is a game about missions. You can't go your own way and do whatever you want, because then you miss important crafting schematics, APs, unique weapons, faction rewards etc. Crafting: B This is the strongest part of the game. Most of the things in game are craftable. You set up what you want to work on if you have the mats, and then you can do whatever you want (even logging off). Depends on the complexity of the item you're making, it takes anywhere between 30 seconds to 2 hours. If you park your character in the workhouses, the process is faster. There are certain problems with the crafting and the current economy. Most of the items you need to craft is possible to buy from a vendor. And everyone can have any tradeskills. If you want to be a crafter, the only thing that differs for you is that you also max out intelligence and perception (which you will probably improve anyway, because it also improves your rifle skill) of your character to increase the cap for your tradeskills. In the end, everyone just gathers whatever they want, then buy the rest from the vendors. Currently, there's absolutely no player economy and I still barely used the auctioneers. Combat, Technical Aspects: D Interface and combat are best to call slow, unresponsive, and clunky. If you shoot, there's a certain lag and you will surely not feel like shooting in real time. Sometimes even if you think you hit, you didn't. I don't mind the mob AI nor its agro range. It's pretty standard and average in compare to the competitors. Icarus is an indie developer, yet they sell their game for 50$ and 15$ per month, so it has to be compared with the rest of the games with this price. If we say indie developer has less budget, smaller development team, smaller marketing -> then we assume they have lower costs and if they decided to sell their game for 50$, then they pretty much have to compete with the major developers. Bugs, yet there's a lot of them -> especially you start noticing them more and more in sector 2 and then s3, the worse is the interface and the feel of the play. It doesn't feel good to move, to use anything, to fight, to switch between first person and third person. Everything is slow and clunky. Overall:C- Fallen Earth is a post apocalypse theme park mmo with clunky interface, slow combat, solid crafting and great atmosphere. Sandbox is defined by the freedom of the activity and the interaction with the persistent world. There is no interaction in FE with the world, there is no housing, no player killing (outside of zones) no body looting, no politics (factions have fixed relations between each other).
I would have to say that even though I'm really enjoying the game so far, you have written a pretty fair review of the game. I definitely would like to see some customization options, not only in character development, but also in the area of crafting. If they would give folks the ability to customize some of the crafted items I think that would really enhance that part of the game. I don't just mean in the way the items look, but how about allowing a crafter the ability to add some small bonuses to an item such as + to coordination or possibly mitigating the negative bonuses. If this was done on an experimentation basis, with a chance of failure, I think it would enhance the crafting a ton.
The game is definitely a theme park type MMO with some elements of Sandbox thrown in. You have the ability to do a lot of things with your character but in the end I see there being that same "cookie" cutter type build. However, this happens in a lot of MMO's.
Originally posted by Thillian Originally posted by Getalife Man OP aren't you sensitive? hahah. By reporting me you just proved my point.
Darkfall is that way ----->, i don't care what you mean by mentioning full body looting because your final score includes it as one of the factors that you decided to give it -C. I despise FFA PVP crowd. I have played Darkfall for few months and they are the worst bunch of players you can ever meet. They feed on themselves till they destroy the community and move on to next MMO to moan and cry about lack of full body loot and yada yada. FE is not what you are looking for, so yes it bothers me that you give FE -C on basis of something which was never a part of original design.
You came here without reading my post, telling me to shup and that I'm a sad loser, and now wonder why you got reported? I replied to you already "Some people, such as the 32th (now deleted) poster in this thread, should learn to read first before replying. I did not say that it's good or bad that there is or isnt full body loot, thousands of missions, whether it's good that's it is or isnt sandbox or themepark or whatever. I summarized my impressions that the game feels and plays rather like a theme park.(which alone doesn't mean whether it's good or not - added for clarification)C- rating is my very personal subjective opinion based on the fact that I didn't like the combat nor the mission oriented gameplay." Please read it this time before replying again.
Actually you are the one who is not doing proper reading. Also i read the post you reported. He was talking about Darkfall in general. And i agree that FFA PVP MMO attracts the worst kind of players who get kicks out of griefing and ganking. It doesn't matter what you reasoning is but you are giving -C on the basis of things which were never promised to be included in FE for example body looting.
Would i go to games like EVE ONLINE and give it -C because i feel that i can't mine to my hearts content without getting destroyed by other players in higher sectors? would i say EVE is flawed because high space is not secure enough? you are complaining about fundamental game design.
It seems more and more players may just not have a very strong definition of what a sandbox game is, what sandbox elements are, and what exactly makes games different in terms of themeparks and sandboxes. These terms are thrown around so wildly now on this forum I can completely understand how people can lose sight of what elements are sandbox and what elements are theme park.
Now, having missions at all seems to be theme park. Lets not get into that only certain missions can be done by certain character specifications or factions. We don't need to get into how certain missions give choices on how the players can complete the missions. We should also just throw it out that advancement can still be possible without missions entirely, or mission chains can be started, or stopped, with or without completion without any hindrance to advancement. We may also not want to touch on how AP missions are not necessary to create a viable character and give small boosts to players that decide to do the missions. The same could be said for crafting books and crafting items, although it is not necessary to do the missions for a great majority of crafting manuals, some are mission rewards - not mandatory mission items everyone has to have. Now some might say - oh no - fallen earth is not a sandbox game. Eventhough it may not be a true sandbox in all aspects, does not automatically make it a theme park in contrast.
Theres far too many AP available. Theres far too few skills to choose from. The fact that skills raise their base value (they increase just by leveling) is utterly mind boggling.
I pretty much agree you nailed it with character customisation, there just isnt enough to differentiate yourself to the other couple thousand players.
And the crafting is anything but special. The queue system is either intentionally shithouse, or severely broken. The insane time limits on crafting items have most people wetting their pants in excitement, but it does nothing for the character wanting to be a tradesman, making people wait does not a good crafting system make. Sure, blame it on the "I want it now" crowd, but its been that way since UO.
And this game IS NOT A { Mod Edit: Language } SANDBOX, ITS A GODDAMNED THEMEPARK. You start at point A, level up and move to point B, with no reason to ever return to pojnt A again. Eventually youll move onto point C, so forth and so on.
There will never be enough AP Azureal, if you stick around long enough in the game, we will find out.
And you say FE is a themepark, well everyone has their own definition of what a sandbox mmorpg is and I respect yours.
But in my opinion, this game isn't a full pledge themepark mmo either, to me its more of a Hybrid of a mmo, the best of both worlds. Themepark Elements and Sandbox as well.
The extra AP's in FE for missions are not compulsory. To make it more comprenehsible: raid gear in WOW is not compulsory. Saying that, and complaining about the AP points that you can get through missions in FE is exactly the same as complaining about the raid grind you need to do in WOW to get that legendary shiny sword. Do both make your character better? Yes. Are they useful? Of course. Do you need to put effort in it? Absolutely. Are they compulsory? Of course not. DB
This isn't quite true. They may not be compulsory but they are absolutely necessary. For many character builds those extra AP are necessary and they're damn useful in any build. In much of the PvP you will be at such a disadvantage without them you'll not be able to participate effectively. 20% of the AP attainable in the game can only be won by doing specific missions. That's a very significant fraction of the total. Many of those will be missions designed to be far below the level a player will have by the time he gets to them. It's a serious flaw in the game. Were it only a few mission chains it wouldn't matter but we're talking about 200+ mission chains here. I like the missions and will probably run every one with at least one character but it's easy to see how someone could find it unpalatable.
Instead of putting the extra AP missions in the starter towns they should have been in the hubs and there should have been far fewer of them. Possibly as little as 5% of the total and spread evenly throughout the sectors.
You did not get my point.
It is NOT absolutely necessary to have the best über-build to play and to have fun. It is not necessary to PVP to enjoy the game. All these are OPTIONS, not vital issues that you *must* do to enjoy the game. Quite the opposite.
Hope it's clearer now...
You also wrote this "Many of those will be missions designed to be far below the level a player will have by the time he gets to them. It's a serious flaw in the game".
Not true. It's not a flaw. If you wish to have ALL the AP you can get in this game, you will have to work for it, invest time in it. You will not get any other rewards, and also you will not advance your character XP-wise during those lower level missions. But you have decided (meaning: nobody ever forced you) that you need that extra AP, didn't you? If so, grind your teeth and take the trip.
Or, you might as well decide, that while you're there, you actually read those stories behind the quests, and who knows, you might enjoy them? You know, I usually have 50-100 unspent AP for my character, since I really, really don't care about advancing my character. A quest with no XP just as much fun for me, as a yellow one. I'm not saying anyone else should do the same way, but I assume I'm not alone, so this system is hardly flawed.
On the contrary I personally think that this system is perfectly fair, and by NO means is it flawed.
DB
Yeah I decided not to gimp myself. The game didn't force me to not be a gimp if I didn't grind out those missions that are absurdly far below my level. I could have chosen to place myself at a distinct disadvantage, repeatedly, with every toon I create.
"You will not get any other rewards, and also you will not advance your character XP-wise during those lower level missions"
I don't know what point you're trying to make here but that's utterly false. Most of the AP missions are chains with the AP rewards at the end. You will recieve, XP, chips, crafting books, and crafting materials in significant amounts. It just won't be anywhere near what you would get doing missions, crafting or fighting mobs at your level. If it weren't for the necessity of having those extra AP later in the game no one would be riding from town to town doing those extra missions. People are coming back from sectors two and three specifically to run those AP mission chains they missed. There are guides with waypoint coordinates on Globaltech Atlas and on the forums. People would not be doing that if they felt it was optional.
This is a flaw. People are complaining about it in game and on the forums and it's real. I really like this game. I read the mission dialogs and enjoy doing them. I'm just not going to stick my fingers in my ears and wear blinders because I like the game. It has faults. That's one of them. You can revoke my fanclub membership but the truth is plain to see for anyone. I won't deny it.
I'm sorry, but it looks like you did not understand anything from what i wrote. There is no point in discussing it any further, especially now when you're using my own point against me as well
I'll use just one last point of view, maybe you get it this time.... I do NOT feel my character is "gimped" because it did not decide to grind up every last bit of AP available by doing missions. You start to look pretty much like an obsessive-compulsive type of player, who just absolutely must get the very top ultimate player in the game, otherwise he'll feel "lacking" somehow. An ideal candidate for endless gear-raids I must say
I, for myself could not care less about maxing out the AP for my character. I'm quite sure I'm not alone with this. Hence, with the ruthless logic of deduction, the game is not flawed, since we are happy with it as it is. If you still don't understand, re-read my post above again.
Peace.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
There are way to many mission's to do in this game it wouldn't be so bad if they gave you the ap mission's first and then you could do the rest of them if you wanted to. I hate them forcing me to do them just so I can get to the ap mission's. One of the game's downfall to me so far, but I will keep going till I get really tired of doing them.
Nobody is forcing anyone to do missions, now I can see it's the mindset of some folks that prevents them to understand it.
Just like an über-rare raid reward is optional, so is 20% of AP in this game. Effort = reward. Effort in this case is the mission chains you need to do them (still much easier than hundreds of hours of raiding, for instance).
To get the max AP in the game is a special reward, and not a must. Lots of folks will have fun playing and not caring about maxing them out, trust me. We have different mindsets, that's all.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
If you can't see that you are Forced to do all the missions just to get the the Ap ones you must be retarded. Sure I can not do them and lose a lot or I have to do them to keep up with others in pvp places and all.
I haven't tried Fallen Earth yet, but I have seen similar things in EVE Online. Players playing a sandbox as a linear themepark ( missioning in empire space ... ). I have caught myself doing this. It is not bad, but I wonder if it is the game to blame ...
Going to download and play the game now to see what all the fuzz is about
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
If you can't see that you are Forced to do all the missions just to get the the Ap ones you must be retarded. Sure I can not do them and lose a lot or I have to do them to keep up with others in pvp places and all.
See, that's the difference between us. I can see and accept that in your mindset you somehow feel that you must get all the AP. I have no issues with that and I'm not saying you should not.
You, on the other hand say I'm retarded, because I'm not feeling that compulsiveness. That tells everything about the both of us
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Nobody is forcing anyone to do missions, now I can see it's the mindset of some folks that prevents them to understand it. Just like an über-rare raid reward is optional, so is 20% of AP in this game. Effort = reward. Effort in this case is the mission chains you need to do them (still much easier than hundreds of hours of raiding, for instance). To get the max AP in the game is a special reward, and not a must. Lots of folks will have fun playing and not caring about maxing them out, trust me. We have different mindsets, that's all. DB
They're not optional. No one is missing the point but you. Keep playing you'll find out later what was missed if you skip them. your "mindset" won't keep your toon from turning out to be inferior without them and you're doing a great disservice to both other people and the game by insisting otherwise.
Dude,
Even playing the game is optional, so whatever you do in it, is optional
If I decide that I wanna stay low level, because I can have fun that way as well, then I can do it. It is only an option to level up
I'm sorry, but we are speaking at totally different planes of discussion, so I should have stopped at "further discussion is pointless" in my previous post, as you are just not able to grasp my mindset at all
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
YOU yourself force any kind stuff on you, because of the mindset you have when playing. In this case, your mindset is the urge of not being "inferior" to those others who can only imagine playing with a "maxxed out" character, whatever that means in a certain game.
Trust me, it's not the only way of playing an MMO
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
The problem with the system is, that it doesn't really allow better customization than class system. Of course you can severly gimp yourself and spend points for crap. But if we consider the best builds, there's only a few.
There are no predefined classes here yes. In the past you have argued that "indiviudal customisation" is better than "pre-defined" as shown here
And now you argue in the opposite direction, have you changed your mind since then maybe?
As with talents(that use sliders int, str,wis), when you consider the best build, there's only a few.
And in fact as i pointed out at the time, with a Rogue, only 1 best build.
One last sentence: A game does NOT force anything on you. YOU yourself force any kind stuff on you, because of the mindset you have when playing. In this case, your mindset is the urge of not being "inferior" to those others who can only imagine playing with a "maxxed out" character, whatever that means in a certain game. Trust me, it's not the only way of playing an MMO DB
Not saying you need every last AP. You will eventually come up against things you can't do if you skipped a substantial number of them though. Maybe you don't care if you get face rolled but most people do. Sure you could play an MMO to stand in the town square roleplaying the village idiot if you wanted. Most people don't though. You can stop making assumptions about how I play MMOs and my mindset now. You couldn't be further off the mark.
All you do is making assumptions on how others play . At least now you are saying "most", instead of just generalizing these things to everyone in game.
I never PVP, so I could not care less about how über other folks are It's probably hard to grasp, but I see quite clearly so far why some people have no way of imagining how other folk's playstyle can be enitre different from theirs, and how in these people's eyes the option of doing missions for AP is not a fault - at all.
The game has a certain way of maxing your AP. It is a design decision. Some people don't like it, some others do, many others don't care. None of them are right or wrong, it's just a reflection of their own mindset what they think about it. Maybe some day you'll see this
Good day to you
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Comments
lmfao. totally agree.
The first few hours? I applaud your patience. I stopped reading after the first few minutes. The first quest I received was to kill 10 bandits, I immediately stopped reading.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Game offers an open world to play in and it rewards you for doing stuff, not just doing quests.
For example completing a quest typically give a reward similar to 3 to 5 kill or 2-3 good crafting nodes or 1 medium difficulty completed crafting (a large crafting project like a car will give you XP equaling up to 15 quests).
Compare that to CO where a 5-10 min quest equal 3-400 mobs killed, same numbers in AoC.
You can improve yourself simply by interaction with your enviroment in a fashion you like and that is the kind of freedom that attracts me to this game so much. Also you really have a choice in how you design your character, there are many different ways to make a char so many in fact that even a 1.5 month after release there is no cookie cutter builds appearing at all, not even suggestions.
Remember that yes you only have 9 skills at start, but that wont last. From S2+ you begin to get access to all the mutation skills and then you never ever have enough APs.
Only thing that bugs me a little is levels themselves, the levels only changes caps on skills and stats so I can't really see why they were necessary, those caps could have been implemented differently.
The game also restrict players, but in a good way. The game create freedom but avoid chaos. There is FFA PvP in the PvP areas but if you don't want to PvP you can just avoid those areas (getting increasingly difficult at higher lvls though). This mean you avoid random ganking and only have PvP when people seek out PvP and that is a VERY VERY wise design decision, FFA PvP generally only attract the worst gamers out there.
The same about player looting, thank god its not there. This is a feature wanted by people who want to hurt others in PvP and not just have a good match. Its often the same players who love FFA PvP everywhere so they can annoy and gank people who can't defend themselves and then its an increased bonus for them to loot the people they have cowardly ganked. So no fun for those ****holes in this game and be thankful for that. As an old anti ganker in daoc I have a strong hate for people who like to gank "greys", they are scum and don't deserve to even play MMOs. FE denies them their petty fun and that is a big + for the game.
Last housing, the world is an empty wasteland with ruined towns spread out. It would totally destroy the mood to have houses build at random points. Instead do like we plan to do in my guild. Select a PvP town and decide "that one is going to be ours permanently!"
All in all FE has found the great middle way. They have created a game with freedom of choice and a living open game world, with serious PvP goals and battle objectives, yet they have avoided the elements that make "pure" themeparks so unpopular like FFA ganking, player looting and to a lesser degree random houses spread over a pristine landscape.
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
Some people, such as the 32th (now deleted) poster in this thread, should learn to read first before replying. I did not say that it's good or bad that there is or isnt full body loot, thousands of missions, whether it's good that's it is or isnt sandbox or themepark or whatever. I summarized my impressions that the game feels and plays rather like a theme park. C- rating is my very personal subjective opinion based on the fact that I didn't like the combat nor the mission oriented gameplay.
REALITY CHECK
Has any game, ever had anything besides missions and "grinding" to advance your character (be it skills or XP)?
Does anyone, who ever complain about "too many missions", "too mission-oriented", or just the same, "too much grind" have ANY idea about how ELSE can a character advance in a game?
MMO's are about many things, but one main point is: advancement. If there is no advancement, most people will not enjoy.
Once again: besides missions and grinding (be it faction, crafting, raids, PVP, you name it), there is NO way in ANY game that helps you develop your character.
Complaining about either "too many mission" or "too much grind, not enough mission" in ANY game is plain silly.
A good game will have options for both, as simply there is no other way. A real good game will make you feel you do not lose anything whether you choose only to do missions, or you choose to ignore them altogether.
The extra AP's in FE for missions are not compulsory. To make it more comprenehsible: raid gear in WOW is not compulsory.
Saying that, and complaining about the AP points that you can get through missions in FE is exactly the same as complaining about the raid grind you need to do in WOW to get that legendary shiny sword. Do both make your character better? Yes. Are they useful? Of course. Do you need to put effort in it? Absolutely. Are they compulsory? Of course not.
I'm sorry, but all those statements saying "too mission oriented", "you have to do missions" etc. are completely void. No, yo do NOT need to do them.
People should eventually learn to play games for fun, and only play those parts of them that they enjoy. Simple as that.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Please Donnie, this applies to you as well apparently. Before reacting to my posts, read them first. Especially 27th post where I further explained why I don't like the mission oriented gameplay in FE.
REALITY CHECK
I'm bored to death after 100 hours. I come from Asheron's Call (one of the first true sandbox games) and FE just seems very linear to me right now with not much to do. I'm bored and don't think I'm going to continue my subscription.
Man OP aren't you sensitive? hahah. By reporting me you just proved my point.
Darkfall is that way ----->, i don't care what you mean by mentioning full body looting because your final score includes it as one of the factors that you decided to give it -C. I despise FFA PVP crowd. I have played Darkfall for few months and they are the worst bunch of players you can ever meet. They feed on themselves till they destroy the community and move on to next MMO to moan and cry about lack of full body loot and yada yada.
FE is not what you are looking for, so yes it bothers me that you give FE -C on basis of something which was never a part of original design.
This isn't quite true. They may not be compulsory but they are absolutely necessary. For many character builds those extra AP are necessary and they're damn useful in any build. In much of the PvP you will be at such a disadvantage without them you'll not be able to participate effectively. 20% of the AP attainable in the game can only be won by doing specific missions. That's a very significant fraction of the total. Many of those will be missions designed to be far below the level a player will have by the time he gets to them. It's a serious flaw in the game. Were it only a few mission chains it wouldn't matter but we're talking about 200+ mission chains here. I like the missions and will probably run every one with at least one character but it's easy to see how someone could find it unpalatable.
Instead of putting the extra AP missions in the starter towns they should have been in the hubs and there should have been far fewer of them. Possibly as little as 5% of the total and spread evenly throughout the sectors.
You did not get my point.
It is NOT absolutely necessary to have the best über-build to play and to have fun. It is not necessary to PVP to enjoy the game. All these are OPTIONS, not vital issues that you *must* do to enjoy the game. Quite the opposite.
Hope it's clearer now...
You also wrote this "Many of those will be missions designed to be far below the level a player will have by the time he gets to them. It's a serious flaw in the game".
Not true. It's not a flaw. If you wish to have ALL the AP you can get in this game, you will have to work for it, invest time in it. You will not get any other rewards, and also you will not advance your character XP-wise during those lower level missions. But you have decided (meaning: nobody ever forced you) that you need that extra AP, didn't you? If so, grind your teeth and take the trip.
Or, you might as well decide, that while you're there, you actually read those stories behind the quests, and who knows, you might enjoy them? You know, I usually have 50-100 unspent AP for my character, since I really, really don't care about advancing my character. A quest with no XP just as much fun for me, as a yellow one. I'm not saying anyone else should do the same way, but I assume I'm not alone, so this system is hardly flawed.
On the contrary I personally think that this system is perfectly fair, and by NO means is it flawed.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
You came here without reading my post, telling me to shup and that I'm a sad loser, and now wonder why you got reported?
I replied to you already
"Some people, such as the 32th (now deleted) poster in this thread, should learn to read first before replying. I did not say that it's good or bad that there is or isnt full body loot, thousands of missions, whether it's good that's it is or isnt sandbox or themepark or whatever. I summarized my impressions that the game feels and plays rather like a theme park.(which alone doesn't mean whether it's good or not - added for clarification) C- rating is my very personal subjective opinion based on the fact that I didn't like the combat nor the mission oriented gameplay."
Please read it this time before replying again.
REALITY CHECK
Well, you DID imply that the game is mission-oriented, and I certainly disagree on this. Also, my post was not only directed to you, but to those, who actually complain about "too many missions", or basically about any options in any games.
Usually those people complain just as loud when they feel that there are not enough options in any certain game :DD
DB
PS: for details on how and why do I not feel FE to be mission-oriented, you check my reply to zymurgeist.
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
I would have to say that even though I'm really enjoying the game so far, you have written a pretty fair review of the game. I definitely would like to see some customization options, not only in character development, but also in the area of crafting. If they would give folks the ability to customize some of the crafted items I think that would really enhance that part of the game. I don't just mean in the way the items look, but how about allowing a crafter the ability to add some small bonuses to an item such as + to coordination or possibly mitigating the negative bonuses. If this was done on an experimentation basis, with a chance of failure, I think it would enhance the crafting a ton.
The game is definitely a theme park type MMO with some elements of Sandbox thrown in. You have the ability to do a lot of things with your character but in the end I see there being that same "cookie" cutter type build. However, this happens in a lot of MMO's.
You came here without reading my post, telling me to shup and that I'm a sad loser, and now wonder why you got reported?
I replied to you already
"Some people, such as the 32th (now deleted) poster in this thread, should learn to read first before replying. I did not say that it's good or bad that there is or isnt full body loot, thousands of missions, whether it's good that's it is or isnt sandbox or themepark or whatever. I summarized my impressions that the game feels and plays rather like a theme park.(which alone doesn't mean whether it's good or not - added for clarification) C- rating is my very personal subjective opinion based on the fact that I didn't like the combat nor the mission oriented gameplay."
Please read it this time before replying again.
Actually you are the one who is not doing proper reading. Also i read the post you reported. He was talking about Darkfall in general. And i agree that FFA PVP MMO attracts the worst kind of players who get kicks out of griefing and ganking. It doesn't matter what you reasoning is but you are giving -C on the basis of things which were never promised to be included in FE for example body looting.
Would i go to games like EVE ONLINE and give it -C because i feel that i can't mine to my hearts content without getting destroyed by other players in higher sectors? would i say EVE is flawed because high space is not secure enough? you are complaining about fundamental game design.
It seems more and more players may just not have a very strong definition of what a sandbox game is, what sandbox elements are, and what exactly makes games different in terms of themeparks and sandboxes. These terms are thrown around so wildly now on this forum I can completely understand how people can lose sight of what elements are sandbox and what elements are theme park.
Now, having missions at all seems to be theme park. Lets not get into that only certain missions can be done by certain character specifications or factions. We don't need to get into how certain missions give choices on how the players can complete the missions. We should also just throw it out that advancement can still be possible without missions entirely, or mission chains can be started, or stopped, with or without completion without any hindrance to advancement. We may also not want to touch on how AP missions are not necessary to create a viable character and give small boosts to players that decide to do the missions. The same could be said for crafting books and crafting items, although it is not necessary to do the missions for a great majority of crafting manuals, some are mission rewards - not mandatory mission items everyone has to have. Now some might say - oh no - fallen earth is not a sandbox game. Eventhough it may not be a true sandbox in all aspects, does not automatically make it a theme park in contrast.
There will never be enough AP Azureal, if you stick around long enough in the game, we will find out.
And you say FE is a themepark, well everyone has their own definition of what a sandbox mmorpg is and I respect yours.
But in my opinion, this game isn't a full pledge themepark mmo either, to me its more of a Hybrid of a mmo, the best of both worlds. Themepark Elements and Sandbox as well.
This isn't quite true. They may not be compulsory but they are absolutely necessary. For many character builds those extra AP are necessary and they're damn useful in any build. In much of the PvP you will be at such a disadvantage without them you'll not be able to participate effectively. 20% of the AP attainable in the game can only be won by doing specific missions. That's a very significant fraction of the total. Many of those will be missions designed to be far below the level a player will have by the time he gets to them. It's a serious flaw in the game. Were it only a few mission chains it wouldn't matter but we're talking about 200+ mission chains here. I like the missions and will probably run every one with at least one character but it's easy to see how someone could find it unpalatable.
Instead of putting the extra AP missions in the starter towns they should have been in the hubs and there should have been far fewer of them. Possibly as little as 5% of the total and spread evenly throughout the sectors.
You did not get my point.
It is NOT absolutely necessary to have the best über-build to play and to have fun. It is not necessary to PVP to enjoy the game. All these are OPTIONS, not vital issues that you *must* do to enjoy the game. Quite the opposite.
Hope it's clearer now...
You also wrote this "Many of those will be missions designed to be far below the level a player will have by the time he gets to them. It's a serious flaw in the game".
Not true. It's not a flaw. If you wish to have ALL the AP you can get in this game, you will have to work for it, invest time in it. You will not get any other rewards, and also you will not advance your character XP-wise during those lower level missions. But you have decided (meaning: nobody ever forced you) that you need that extra AP, didn't you? If so, grind your teeth and take the trip.
Or, you might as well decide, that while you're there, you actually read those stories behind the quests, and who knows, you might enjoy them? You know, I usually have 50-100 unspent AP for my character, since I really, really don't care about advancing my character. A quest with no XP just as much fun for me, as a yellow one. I'm not saying anyone else should do the same way, but I assume I'm not alone, so this system is hardly flawed.
On the contrary I personally think that this system is perfectly fair, and by NO means is it flawed.
DB
Yeah I decided not to gimp myself. The game didn't force me to not be a gimp if I didn't grind out those missions that are absurdly far below my level. I could have chosen to place myself at a distinct disadvantage, repeatedly, with every toon I create.
"You will not get any other rewards, and also you will not advance your character XP-wise during those lower level missions"
I don't know what point you're trying to make here but that's utterly false. Most of the AP missions are chains with the AP rewards at the end. You will recieve, XP, chips, crafting books, and crafting materials in significant amounts. It just won't be anywhere near what you would get doing missions, crafting or fighting mobs at your level. If it weren't for the necessity of having those extra AP later in the game no one would be riding from town to town doing those extra missions. People are coming back from sectors two and three specifically to run those AP mission chains they missed. There are guides with waypoint coordinates on Globaltech Atlas and on the forums. People would not be doing that if they felt it was optional.
This is a flaw. People are complaining about it in game and on the forums and it's real. I really like this game. I read the mission dialogs and enjoy doing them. I'm just not going to stick my fingers in my ears and wear blinders because I like the game. It has faults. That's one of them. You can revoke my fanclub membership but the truth is plain to see for anyone. I won't deny it.
I'm sorry, but it looks like you did not understand anything from what i wrote. There is no point in discussing it any further, especially now when you're using my own point against me as well
I'll use just one last point of view, maybe you get it this time.... I do NOT feel my character is "gimped" because it did not decide to grind up every last bit of AP available by doing missions. You start to look pretty much like an obsessive-compulsive type of player, who just absolutely must get the very top ultimate player in the game, otherwise he'll feel "lacking" somehow. An ideal candidate for endless gear-raids I must say
I, for myself could not care less about maxing out the AP for my character. I'm quite sure I'm not alone with this. Hence, with the ruthless logic of deduction, the game is not flawed, since we are happy with it as it is. If you still don't understand, re-read my post above again.
Peace.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
There are way to many mission's to do in this game it wouldn't be so bad if they gave you the ap mission's first and then you could do the rest of them if you wanted to. I hate them forcing me to do them just so I can get to the ap mission's. One of the game's downfall to me so far, but I will keep going till I get really tired of doing them.
Nobody is forcing anyone to do missions, now I can see it's the mindset of some folks that prevents them to understand it.
Just like an über-rare raid reward is optional, so is 20% of AP in this game. Effort = reward. Effort in this case is the mission chains you need to do them (still much easier than hundreds of hours of raiding, for instance).
To get the max AP in the game is a special reward, and not a must. Lots of folks will have fun playing and not caring about maxing them out, trust me. We have different mindsets, that's all.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
If you can't see that you are Forced to do all the missions just to get the the Ap ones you must be retarded. Sure I can not do them and lose a lot or I have to do them to keep up with others in pvp places and all.
I haven't tried Fallen Earth yet, but I have seen similar things in EVE Online. Players playing a sandbox as a linear themepark ( missioning in empire space ... ). I have caught myself doing this. It is not bad, but I wonder if it is the game to blame ...
Going to download and play the game now to see what all the fuzz is about
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
See, that's the difference between us. I can see and accept that in your mindset you somehow feel that you must get all the AP. I have no issues with that and I'm not saying you should not.
You, on the other hand say I'm retarded, because I'm not feeling that compulsiveness. That tells everything about the both of us
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
They're not optional. No one is missing the point but you. Keep playing you'll find out later what was missed if you skip them. your "mindset" won't keep your toon from turning out to be inferior without them and you're doing a great disservice to both other people and the game by insisting otherwise.
Dude,
Even playing the game is optional, so whatever you do in it, is optional
If I decide that I wanna stay low level, because I can have fun that way as well, then I can do it. It is only an option to level up
I'm sorry, but we are speaking at totally different planes of discussion, so I should have stopped at "further discussion is pointless" in my previous post, as you are just not able to grasp my mindset at all
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
One last sentence:
A game does NOT force anything on you.
YOU yourself force any kind stuff on you, because of the mindset you have when playing. In this case, your mindset is the urge of not being "inferior" to those others who can only imagine playing with a "maxxed out" character, whatever that means in a certain game.
Trust me, it's not the only way of playing an MMO
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Reading what people say about the game... in my opinion looks like the made a theme park game with a sandbox feeling. Maybe is not a bad idea at all.
There are no predefined classes here yes. In the past you have argued that "indiviudal customisation" is better than "pre-defined" as shown here
And now you argue in the opposite direction, have you changed your mind since then maybe?
As with talents(that use sliders int, str,wis), when you consider the best build, there's only a few.
And in fact as i pointed out at the time, with a Rogue, only 1 best build.
Not saying you need every last AP. You will eventually come up against things you can't do if you skipped a substantial number of them though. Maybe you don't care if you get face rolled but most people do. Sure you could play an MMO to stand in the town square roleplaying the village idiot if you wanted. Most people don't though. You can stop making assumptions about how I play MMOs and my mindset now. You couldn't be further off the mark.
All you do is making assumptions on how others play
. At least now you are saying "most", instead of just generalizing these things to everyone in game.
I never PVP, so I could not care less about how über other folks are
It's probably hard to grasp, but I see quite clearly so far why some people have no way of imagining how other folk's playstyle can be enitre different from theirs, and how in these people's eyes the option of doing missions for AP is not a fault - at all.
The game has a certain way of maxing your AP. It is a design decision. Some people don't like it, some others do, many others don't care. None of them are right or wrong, it's just a reflection of their own mindset what they think about it. Maybe some day you'll see this
Good day to you
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.