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Why EVE sucks
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I can understand some of the OP's criticisms of the game, but I personally don't agree that it sucks. For every fault EVE has, it has many other features that make up for it. That doesn't mean I think the game is perfect, but I do think it is one of the best MMOs out there. Regardless, I can somewhat agree with the OP on a couple of points.
I always thought that they should keep the offline skill training system, but make it so you gain twice as fast when logged in. That way, people still do advance more quickly than they otherwise would, but not so quickly that you have hardcore players reaching end game in a matter of days.
I also wouldn't mind a re-vamp of the combat system, but I know why it was designed the way it was. It would be very difficult to make the game stable and perform well on such a huge scale if they had used a different combat style.
Travel could also use some work. It does take a little bit too much time to get from place to place. Having to make 20 jumps just to pick up something you purchased is never fun. I can't say that I have a solution for this, but I can agree with the OP that it could use some further thought on the part of the CCP devs.
Just curious, how many subs do you have?
"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."
That is the thing. A game should not require a player to explore the ENTIRE game before it is fun. It should be fun in the beginning, and it should be fun at the higher "progression" (yeah i know Eve don't have levels).
I did the 21 day trial in the beginning of the year (before they added some more mission in an expansion) and i have to say that the early game PvE has little content and the combat mechanics is boring.
I think i have upgraded my ship twice. There is little new abilities. i am sure they are there, just not available to me. All i do is to close and use missile to kill my enemies. (i was doing mission running). There is little tactics. I just let the missile flies and that is it. In other games (like wow), by the time I play for 2 weeks (L20? L30?) i would have many different abilities, and combat would be a lot more interesting.
Eve also has very very little quest content. After like 4-5 missions, the missions start to repeat themselves. A game like WOW would have NO repeated quest until the end game. I know Eve not supposed to be a PvE game, but so few quests?
I can't comment on Eve PvP when you get a lot of skills but certainly it does not have a good "early" game if you want to PvE.
Why do Eve players think that those who do not like Eve haven't played the game fully? I've gone into low security space, joined a corp and played altogether for a few months and I STILL hate that game with a passion. Playing it more wont improve the experience on a already crappy system that most people do not already like.
"World of Warcraft is the perfect implementation of this genre." - Hilmar Petursson. CEO of CCP.
Jairoe03 hit the nail on the head on some of his points.
There is a steep learning curve that immediately turns most gamers away. I've been playing since 2006 (things have changed A LOT since then) and part of the initial fun for me was the challenge as well as the knowledge that knowledge itself is power in EVE. It's really not for everyone. The creators explain that the game was meant to be a "science fiction simulator" and they have done a great job creating a very open ended sandbox in space. Does everyone here enjoy Civilization IV? Does everyone enjoy RTS or FPS games? Nope.. doesn't make them or you any less of a person so we should have dropped that on page one.
The naval style ship battles are another deal breaker for people. The tactics, pace and scale of combat between PVP and PVE are very different. You can play the game and never get involved with a real fleet battle or you could join a fleet on day one with some coaching.
The hardest obstacle to overcome in EVE is just how huge and open ended the game is. The game makes no attempt to force you into a class or play style. Mission runner, miner, manufacturing, space trucker, pirate, fleet commander, cannon fodder, explorer, spy, scammer, market tycoon, information dealer, logistics engineer, station manager... the list goes on and on... The game allows you to do anything you want and it can be overwhelming. It's incredibly hard to stay focused on one thing and truly master it but that is the best thing a new player can do for themselves.
The game doesn't suck... it's just not your average game and your average gamer isn't going to enjoy it.
Jairoe03 hit the nail on the head on some of his points.
There is a steep learning curve that immediately turns most gamers away. I've been playing since 2006 (things have changed A LOT since then) and part of the initial fun for me was the challenge as well as the knowledge that knowledge itself is power in EVE. It's really not for everyone. The creators explain that the game was meant to be a "science fiction simulator" and they have done a great job creating a very open ended sandbox in space. Does everyone here enjoy Civilization IV? Does everyone enjoy RTS or FPS games? Nope.. doesn't make them or you any less of a person so we should have dropped that on page one.
The naval style ship battles are another deal breaker for people. The tactics, pace and scale of combat between PVP and PVE are very different. You can play the game and never get involved with a real fleet battle or you could join a fleet on day one with some coaching.
The hardest obstacle to overcome in EVE is just how huge and open ended the game is. The game makes no attempt to force you into a class or play style. Mission runner, miner, manufacturing, space trucker, pirate, fleet commander, cannon fodder, explorer, spy, scammer, market tycoon, information dealer, logistics engineer, station manager... the list goes on and on... The game allows you to do anything you want and it can be overwhelming. It's incredibly hard to stay focused on one thing and truly master it but that is the best thing a new player can do for themselves.
The game doesn't suck... it's just not your average game and your average gamer isn't going to enjoy it.
Cool story, bro..
Same here. I even posted a list of things I hated about EvE and nobody has ever responded to any of them. They have insulted my intelligence however, but apparently none of these people can read and/or think about what's wrong with the game.
Go figure.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Player vs Player is the main focus of Eve. There are a ton of people who don't bother trying the main focus of the game before they criticize the game. The OP doesn't instill us with much confidence that he's even tried the pvp. He alludes to it once, in a hypothetical, in that he would get beat by someone who sat and trained skills for 5 years. Which is not entirely true. Hell, even Zeropunctuation admits he didn't try to get involved in the pvp aspect of Eve.
Most Eve players agree that the PVE is weak. But what they want others to try and understand, is that they believe Player vs. Player interaction is phenomenal enough to more than compensate for the weak pve, and to base opinions of the game solely off its pve aspect is unfair at best.
and this is where I stopped reading.
I'm an adult. I am capable of thinking for myself, and I formed my opinion on the game from playing it. Being condescending and arrogant won't convince me that I really wasn't bored while I was playing.
the notion that if you don't like this game, then you are a "Kiddie" is ridiculous. EVE isn't the holy grail of gaming, contrary to popular belief. It is perfectly alright for someone to not be 100% in love with the game.
Ok, i'll take the bait.
I am what must be considered a hard core EvE player. My main is Qual and I am currently running for the CSM (That is EvE's player elected advisery board for CCP. They do take their player fairly serious...).
I have played for 6 years.
Now I am not going to say that EvE is the perfect game and all people should like it. But I do take offence to people who just say that a game suck. Just be course you dont like it doesnøt mean it sucks. It mean just that: YOU dont like it.
Its kinda like me and WoW. I've tried to get into it for years, simply be course I like Blizzard, and I know a lot of people who like the game. But as it turns out it have some game mechanics that just is so not me, that I can't play the game. Does that make it a bad game? Hell no, 11 million subs says it has qualities. 300k subs on EvE says that game have some qualities as well. Avarage age is around 30 btw, which is fairly high for an MMO, which also should tell you that the game is different.
Now funny thing is that DDO I really like. That game, for me, does everything right that WoW fails to. For me!
In the end I will call all three games good, they are just not all for me.
I think few loyal EvE players that will string you up for saying you dont like the game (hell 90% of my friends that tried it stayed in it, I KNOW its not for everyones tastes), but most WILL string you up for saying the game is bad. That two VERY diffferent things. And TBH that goes for most loyal players of any game: They take offence to that kind of statement, and they rightly should. (And of course the OP poster knows this as well, which makes it an obvious troll...)
Just curious. Did you get involved in the pvp aspects of Eve? I only ask because you said you've tried the game 4 times. That means there's something there you're that might appeal to you. If you haven't, when you load it up for the 5th time. Go try it. Join a newbie corp, or try out factional warfare.
I'll freely and honestly admit that I did not, and in not doing so I likely missed out on a lot of what you guys find fun about it. I did join EVE University for a bit, and they showed me some stuff, but not like 0.0 stuff.
but you know what? I never even got that far, because I was bored and had no desire to continue. like I said in my post, perhaps next time i try it, I'll just go straight from the tutorial into low-sec space, and skip everything inbetween. that's probably ill-advised, but I dunno, maybe I'll find something that hooks me into the game faster that way.
whoever said that a MMO shouldn't take a long time before it becomes fun is correct. It should be fun right from the beginning, and EVE is not. in *my* opinion.
also, someone commented on how many times I tried the game. I did so because I REALLY, REALLY wanted to like EVE. I had heard so many glowing reviews of the game, and so many people worship the ground CCP walks on, and act like it is the greatest game ever created, and I wanted in on the fun. But honestly, I just couldn't find it. (the fun, that is) I really wanted to like the game and think of it the way you guys do, but I just couldn't see it.
I've got a couple more free trials in me to give it a shot. I'm going to try it again eventually, probably when the Walking In Stations update hits. and in the interest of full disclosure, I still follow the game. I just don't play it. like i said, maybe I'll give it another shot further on down the road.
Just curious. Did you get involved in the pvp aspects of Eve? I only ask because you said you've tried the game 4 times. That means there's something there you're that might appeal to you. If you haven't, when you load it up for the 5th time. Go try it. Join a newbie corp, or try out factional warfare.
I'll freely and honestly admit that I did not, and in not doing so I likely missed out on a lot of what you guys find fun about it. I did join EVE University for a bit, and they showed me some stuff, but not like 0.0 stuff.
but you know what? I never even got that far, because I was bored and had no desire to continue. like I said in my post, perhaps next time i try it, I'll just go straight from the tutorial into low-sec space, and skip everything inbetween. that's probably ill-advised, but I dunno, maybe I'll find something that hooks me into the game faster that way.
whoever said that a MMO shouldn't take a long time before it becomes fun is correct. It should be fun right from the beginning, and EVE is not. in *my* opinion.
also, someone commented on how many times I tried the game. I did so because I REALLY, REALLY wanted to like EVE. I had heard so many glowing reviews of the game, and so many people worship the ground CCP walks on, and act like it is the greatest game ever created, and I wanted in on the fun. But honestly, I just couldn't find it. (the fun, that is) I really wanted to like the game and think of it the way you guys do, but I just couldn't see it.
I've got a couple more free trials in me to give it a shot. I'm going to try it again eventually, probably when the Walking In Stations update hits. and in the interest of full disclosure, I still follow the game. I just don't play it. like i said, maybe I'll give it another shot further on down the road.
You can join Red vs Blue, which is specifically organised to let anyone get PvP at any time, regardless of their skills, experience, or assets. You can leave and rejoin at any time. It's just for fun fights. But there are some very experienced PvPers involved, so you'll pick up some good fighting lessons while you're doing it.
EDIT: BTW I've seen plenty of people say that it took them 2 or 3 or 4 or more tries before EvE "clicked" for them.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Hey ,there.
I read your post and i agree Eve does require a certain taste. And I wanted to point out to you why i think Evev is indeed a quality game. Its because of its structure. As well as its sandbox type of progression. I think when a player really diggs into Eve they see a really intricate structure of gaming. The components of this structure could be taken to any MMO. In other words i think if more MMO's had the sandbox type of concepts encountered in Eve then they would indeed be better. I think many new MMO's that are developing will be mimic -ing some of Eves components. We can all agree that the basis for all MMOs is Power. Eve causes the player to aquire this power in a more creative and patient way. This patients is what funds the Eve project and allows the Devs of Eve to continue to create more content. However,.. Eves content is based from player progress and not merely from the imagination and desires from the Devs. This is also a unique quality of Eve. I enjoyed your post. Take care and keep gaming.
A screensaver that uses to much of your brain!
A screensaver that uses to much of your brain!
A screensaver that uses too much of your brain!
I call Eve Online Menu Online, the game has very little actual gameplay, all you ever do is navigate menu after menu after menu. I tried eve and found the game to be Zzzz and it actually put me to sleep playing it, I will admit though the music is god
A legitimate criticism. The UI is... special. Short bus special. The best I can say is that after a while you get used to it...
Give me liberty or give me lasers
All I have to say about most of the OP's points is, You're doin it wrong.
I'm guessing this is not the first time he's been told so.
Anyhow! I've never disliked Eve but for years I always had trouble getting into it, partly because I worked a job that kept me out of town and partly because I never really quite played the game the way it was designed to. I kept wanting trying a more traditional MMO approach. Does that work? NEGATIVE!!!!
Due to a job change, I've really had time to recently really get into the game and focus on playing it the way it was designed to be played. I'm in a small wormhole corp. and having a blast. We run sleeper complex's and even use wormholes that open into k-space(Known local space) for random PvP encounters.
The point is that you can't go from the more traditional MMOs then try Eve expecting to play it the same way and enjoy it. It's much more involved for every player than any MMO I've tried. In every other MMO you're playing an already created story, you're just another piece of someone else's story. In Eve you can become the story.
Oh hey, thanks for another short one, and segues right into one of the OP's main complaints.
See, I take a totally different viewpoint, I think MMORPG's greatest failing as a genre is the design that rewards players who play more than others. I think time subscribed is an excellent way to level the playing field and EVE's system does exactly that.
Sure, the OP doesn't care for it, he sounds like a Lineage 2 player btw, and some of those folks had no problem playing 12-14 hours a day to get to the top. I'm afraid my lifestyle doesn't pemrit that sort of time committment and I'm sure glad there's a game that doesn't relegate me to 2nd class citizenship simply because I can't play it all the time.
I can understand why you and the OP wouldn't care for that design, that's fine, its just a different philosphy and while a valid reason not to like playing EVE, it doesn't translate to... EVE sucks!!!
Leveling your skills isn't a core focus of EVE, earning the ISK to pay for ships that you will eventually have blown out from under you is the design focus, and while its possible to avoid PVP for the most part, the world is entirely designed to support the model.
But that will be discussed in another post.
I don't think MMORPGs reward players who play more.
P2P games reward everyone the same.
If you play one hour, you get the xp and gear you can make in one hour.
If you play 1,000 hours, you get the xp and gear you can earn in 1,000 hours.
The person that plays 1,000 hours earns xp and gear at exactly the same rate as the person that plays one hour. They are not rewarded any more or any less.
Everyone earns roughly the same thing per hour played.
It's like, I work an hour, I make 10 dollars.
I work 1,000 hours, I make 10,000 dollars. Still 10 dollars an hour. No overtime is given in an MMORPG.
Wow how did I miss this sweet gem of a thread!
I LOVE these!
In a few days my oldest character in eve will be 5 years old. I've had paid subs to the game 80% of that time with a few breaks for RL. But I always come back.
Eve is a game for people who can be cruising around in their rifter in week 2 and already be making plans for the alliance they want to be running in 3 years. It's also a game for people that LIKE the challenge of being in constant competition with 20-40k pretty smart (on average) people every time they log in. It's a game for people that can lose a month's worth of hard work by making a stupid mistake, get up dust yourself off, and get right back into it.
I suppose I can see where the people are coming from calling eve a "screen saver." If you had no goals and puttered around empire space all day doing PvE stuff then, yeah, I guess I could get the screen saver reference. But when you learn a little about the game and you are actually working toward a goal with some friends and you end up in your FIRST REAL FIGHT... I'd say those that DON"T end up with their hearts about to jump out of their chests from the adrenaline would be in the minority.
It is a certainty that eve isn't for everyone.. but if it IS a match you'll find a virtual universe without equal on the planet. After 5 years I've probably only visited 20% of the systems in the game, and there are still parts of the game that I know very little about. Still ship classes that I have never even TRAINED much less mastered. And there are still plenty of long term goals that I have tucked away to go after when the time is right. Personally I plan on playing until they turn the server off... and the way CCP constantly works to balance, upgrade, and add content to the game, I fully expect to be playing 10 years from now.
If you are CURIOUS by all means ignore all of the naysayers and check it out. The trial is free, and it's never to late to jump in. The myth about "never catching up" is a load of crap spread around by people that really don't get the game. Eve is a lot more about your real-life intelligence than your in-game skills.
Anyway, play it or don't... trash it or love it... eve never fades.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
You might want to be a pirate/pk/ganker
If you dont pvp in Eve much it can be really boring and its all about who you team up with too that can make it fun or not. They're is alot more to it than just sitting aound and waiting for your skills to train up.
Have you ever tried taking out a battleship and 2 cruisers with 2 cruisers and a frigate? It can be done and was one of the best playing experiences I have ever had.
Have you and your team ever been out numbered 5 to 1 in a system and you stil manage to take half of them out before you all get killed or maybe you kill a enough of them that they just leave? I've been in stituations like countless times.
Have you ever killed someone in a .4 system near a gate and have a another ship warp jam you so the sentrys might have a chance to kill you just before warping out? You have to do some really quick thinking if you want to survive this one.hehe
If you try some of the things above.. You will be spending all you isk on mods and ships to enable you to do such things..
Oh hey, thanks for another short one, and segues right into one of the OP's main complaints.
See, I take a totally different viewpoint, I think MMORPG's greatest failing as a genre is the design that rewards players who play more than others. I think time subscribed is an excellent way to level the playing field and EVE's system does exactly that.
Sure, the OP doesn't care for it, he sounds like a Lineage 2 player btw, and some of those folks had no problem playing 12-14 hours a day to get to the top. I'm afraid my lifestyle doesn't pemrit that sort of time committment and I'm sure glad there's a game that doesn't relegate me to 2nd class citizenship simply because I can't play it all the time.
I can understand why you and the OP wouldn't care for that design, that's fine, its just a different philosphy and while a valid reason not to like playing EVE, it doesn't translate to... EVE sucks!!!
Leveling your skills isn't a core focus of EVE, earning the ISK to pay for ships that you will eventually have blown out from under you is the design focus, and while its possible to avoid PVP for the most part, the world is entirely designed to support the model.
But that will be discussed in another post.
I don't think MMORPGs reward players who play more.
P2P games reward everyone the same.
If you play one hour, you get the xp and gear you can make in one hour.
If you play 1,000 hours, you get the xp and gear you can earn in 1,000 hours.
The person that plays 1,000 hours earns xp and gear at exactly the same rate as the person that plays one hour. They are not rewarded any more or any less.
Everyone earns roughly the same thing per hour played.
It's like, I work an hour, I make 10 dollars.
I work 1,000 hours, I make 10,000 dollars. Still 10 dollars an hour. No overtime is given in an MMORPG.
I want to point out the most significant flaws in any job to MMORPG/game comparison, I am not getting paid to play and in fact I am actually paying to play for a duration of time. Part of it also includes adding value. Sure I do agree I shouldn't be anywhere near the level of anyone that has put forth 10x more hours as me, but I should have ways of keeping up with friends/family that can put in a little more time. Luckily, EVE allows this and as someone said before, skill isn't everything in this game, its also what you do with it and your ships, the way you design.
Again, its a much slower paced game and I like it for the fact that its a great environment to hang out with people, talk and meet others. The community is great and helpful for the most part and its more international than most games since the universe consists of 1 "shard". Half of MMORPGs to me is the social aspect and being able to join a corp, meet new friends and do ops together on a casual level (rather than schedule it out on a calendar or force your best to go just so you can see if you can clear the latest raid). EVE allows people to do it and allows people to do it that much better with its systems set up. Especially with the potential in the future with the sovereignty system, its going to open up much more dynamics within the game and many more features that EVE is looking to add. And what other MMO is actually trying to mesh console gamers and PC gamers into one universe. That'll be epic if pulled off right.
EDIT: Never compare games to work unless you work in the industry or something. Its got to be one of inappropriate comparisons. Gaming shouldn't feel like working but many come off like it does and I find it odd and funny.
That's your problem. If you think that running missions is playing Eve your sorely mistaken.
Oh hey, thanks for another short one, and segues right into one of the OP's main complaints.
See, I take a totally different viewpoint, I think MMORPG's greatest failing as a genre is the design that rewards players who play more than others. I think time subscribed is an excellent way to level the playing field and EVE's system does exactly that.
Sure, the OP doesn't care for it, he sounds like a Lineage 2 player btw, and some of those folks had no problem playing 12-14 hours a day to get to the top. I'm afraid my lifestyle doesn't pemrit that sort of time committment and I'm sure glad there's a game that doesn't relegate me to 2nd class citizenship simply because I can't play it all the time.
I can understand why you and the OP wouldn't care for that design, that's fine, its just a different philosphy and while a valid reason not to like playing EVE, it doesn't translate to... EVE sucks!!!
Leveling your skills isn't a core focus of EVE, earning the ISK to pay for ships that you will eventually have blown out from under you is the design focus, and while its possible to avoid PVP for the most part, the world is entirely designed to support the model.
But that will be discussed in another post.
I don't think MMORPGs reward players who play more.
P2P games reward everyone the same.
If you play one hour, you get the xp and gear you can make in one hour.
If you play 1,000 hours, you get the xp and gear you can earn in 1,000 hours.
The person that plays 1,000 hours earns xp and gear at exactly the same rate as the person that plays one hour. They are not rewarded any more or any less.
Everyone earns roughly the same thing per hour played.
It's like, I work an hour, I make 10 dollars.
I work 1,000 hours, I make 10,000 dollars. Still 10 dollars an hour. No overtime is given in an MMORPG.
I want to point out the most significant flaws in any job to MMORPG/game comparison, I am not getting paid to play and in fact I am actually paying to play for a duration of time. Part of it also includes adding value. Sure I do agree I shouldn't be anywhere near the level of anyone that has put forth 10x more hours as me, but I should have ways of keeping up with friends/family that can put in a little more time. Luckily, EVE allows this and as someone said before, skill isn't everything in this game, its also what you do with it and your ships, the way you design.
Again, its a much slower paced game and I like it for the fact that its a great environment to hang out with people, talk and meet others. The community is great and helpful for the most part and its more international than most games since the universe consists of 1 "shard". Half of MMORPGs to me is the social aspect and being able to join a corp, meet new friends and do ops together on a casual level (rather than schedule it out on a calendar or force your best to go just so you can see if you can clear the latest raid). EVE allows people to do it and allows people to do it that much better with its systems set up. Especially with the potential in the future with the sovereignty system, its going to open up much more dynamics within the game and many more features that EVE is looking to add. And what other MMO is actually trying to mesh console gamers and PC gamers into one universe. That'll be epic if pulled off right.
EDIT: Never compare games to work unless you work in the industry or something. Its got to be one of inappropriate comparisons. Gaming shouldn't feel like working but many come off like it does and I find it odd and funny.
I think that is ridiculous. It's the best comparison there is. The biggest mistake you are making here is not realizing that the "job" is not MY job, not ME, the real person sitting at the computer. It's the job of my CHARACTER. The CHARACTER is making the xp and gear, and going up in levels. I'm not gaining levels, HE (or SHE) is, and he does that with his JOB which is to kill Mobs and do quests.
You play an MMORPG for an hour, and you make a "wage" in gear and xp.
It correlates very well to work.
Some people get paid to photograph naked models, or to taste wine. Do you think they feel like they are doing a boring repetitive task? Just because your work may be boring or repetitive doesn't mean that is the case for everyone. Some people have jobs that are so much fun they'd do it for free, but they are lucky enough to get paid to do it. Do you really think being a rock star is boring and repetitive? Yet you get paid for the hours you play on stage, and quite a bit.
So "fun" doesn't have to be only related to games, people can have fun doing their jobs as well.
And games aren't always fun, sometimes they are very boing.
Pay to Play MMORPGs and work correlate very well, because you get compensated by the hour (although other compensations exist) in both.
In a job you get dollars per hour.
In an MMORPG you get xp and gear per hour.
The task you do to get dollars or xp and gear can both be either fun or boring.
However, in a Pay to Play MMORPG, everyone is compensated equally, unlike the real world job.
I make xp per hour the exact same as you do. No matter how much I play, I won't make more xp per hour (roughly) than you do. Whereas a Rock Star makes much more per hour than a McDonald's worker.
What I find odd and funny is that you can't see how easy it is to compare games and work, when you are rewarded in a game like an MMORPG per hour played.
You did know that game gold can be sold for real money, and for some people farming gold actually is their job, right?