I've done a few betas over the years, reported the bugs, issued feedback. The problem is, i've never seen any of those games launch with the bugs encountered actually fixed, and the feedback, is often ignored. If you are playing an open beta a couple of weeks before release, and don't like it, then you're not going to like the game. Sure if you are in early beta, thing's might change, but face it, most of these games are still in beta months after the actual release day. They don't even sell complete, finished, polished games on release day.
It's past time these companies stop charing for their client, "the game", and instead go for something like pay 50-60 dollars now, because we are desperate for money at this point, and that will cover 3-4-5-6 months subcriptions because we all know it's going to take at least that long for the game to get to where it shoudl have been on release date, if it even gets that far. Now they get a bunch of people who gobble up hype like it's pie, fork out their money, play for 30 days, don't renew their subscription who then talk about how bad the game was for the next several years. At least this way, most people would try the game again in month 4 or 5 because they already paid for it, and by then, things might have improved.
There has to be a better system then bam, millions of people buy the client, crash and strain servers for a month, massive exodus and a year later all get in invite begging them to return for a welcome back weekend with goodies talking about how much bettert the game is.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
I pretty much completely agree. Although i personally purchased the Champions online lifetime sub to save some cash down the road. Unfortunately they nerfed the hell out of the game on the very morning of retail release. I waited through a few patches but was not playing the game after less than 10 days past retail. I kept checking for changes to the issues the pissed me off, but they never came. Thankfully though, the CS Rep i talked to after the 30 day grace period on the lifetime, honored the cancellation anyway, and i got my 200 bucks back. I still dont feel like i even got my 50 dollars worth for the most part, but it was fun for a few weeks if you include the closed beta and head start. In the end though, i'm one of those retail box sales that never paid a subscription fee.
Yes I totaly agree with you on all accounts of this.
I was like totaly mad that you had to buy champions online to get in the beta of Star Trek, not only that but a lifetuime sub on a game I would not have given you 10 cents to buy. Now While I would dearly love to beta Star Trek online to see if it is going replace my LOTRO. It is just not going to happen. I might not ever play Star Treck online becasue of how Cyrptic handled this with the middle finger in my face saying you dont get to beta as you did not get a lifetime sub to champions online.
Then you got AION, well the fact it has NCSOFT stamped on it was all I needed, for me to go uggg. The promotions with that were dismal as well. I know folks who went to AION and right back a week later to lotro he he enough said.
Then you have LOTRO, and other companies going look at how great we are look at all the box sales we had, look at our player base, when in fact yes the did sale all that. The reall issue is retention, and mean that whole heartedly. How many of the milions in sales are still resubbing.
Case in point. We all know whts going on with the new multi month pricing. Its called they have tons of cancelations for month to month sales. Trying to push out a new pricing option with the ohh look what you get for free if you do this. Folks nothing is free, Barnum Bailey said there is a sucker born every minute, and with these game companies pulling of promotions like this and folks fall for it I would say that old saying is still very true today.
I got to hand it to these compines their creative marketing sure tuns folks off, not on. Me included.
You have to ask yourself if over the past 10 years, has there been a non-paid beta that made a real difference at launch and post launch for most mmorpgs. I'm not sure there has been a realizable difference since I'm not really sure if developers truly engage beta testers to peel off bugs and game-play. I think there's a project plan, and the companies follow that plan and know where and what needs to be nailed down even without the vast majority of players that deemed 'beta testers'. If thats the case, does it really matter if those same companies and developers spin off exclusive beta testing to paid testing since the end result is going to be the same anyway; its now a way for the companies to get cash-flow earlier.
In CO, I was both. I usually ran out of text room in the quest comments area. I reported every bug(they had a pretty good system for this, with a search and a "I have the same bug!" option. The more I saw how their focus was gonna be on customization of costumes than powers, I lost heart in the endeavor and hardly ever participated. Just before launch I logged in to see where things went, and learned in no time that I would not be buying the game. I even logged onto the Halloween event; played for about 2 hours before quitting and uninstalling. When you can't even get a superhero geek like me to play for free, you've got trouble.
Imagine if Tabula Rasa offered lifetime subs...
Here's the sad truth: You are the person they can never please with superhero games (Be it Cryptic, or SOE, or NCSoft). Much like the die hard SW fans felt let down by SW:G (before the NGE, the real fans had already been turned off) and LOTRO (Tolkein fans might be the worst about it). And the same thing is happening with STO. Cryptic could NEVER with a thousand years of development make a game to satisify every hard core trekky out there. So they aim at an audience they can make happy and keep subscribing, the average gamer with an interest in Star trek. Same thing happened to AOC and Warhammer, though their fanbase was smaller so its not as noticable or vocal.
Hmmm... well, that the tech may not be there may have some truth, though I gotta say, Freedom Force gave me what I wanted 7 years ago; complete, COMPREHENSIVE customization of powers. Where Cryptic failed to please me is by trying to 1-up CoX with their costume options; a feature which has no bearing on gameplay whatsoever, instead of taking the next logical step in hero customization... POWERS. They had an extraordinary opportunity to make gameplay interesting, AND missed a GOLDEN opportunity: provide costume options on par with CoX, and roll out more costume options available via RMT.
It's possible that the technology isn't there. I think it's more likely, however, that they never considered how much a superheroes powers(and those powers being unique and personal to the character) mean to the creation of a superhero. It's clear in many of the names of the powers: "Eldritch Bolt ", and "Skarns' Bane", for example. Why are they giving specific names for MY characters powers??? That's a total miscalculation.
Their focus was quite wrong. Few were unhappy with all the costume options CoX provided. Going further was a waste of frontloaded development time. Time that could be spent making powers more interesting, or providing adequate content.
Also, I'm a total Tolkein geek, and I LOVE LotRO. it's not exactly like I'd pictured Middle Earth, and it's not perfect, but they did a terrific job. It's the first MMO in years that I'm played for more than 6 months.
Can't say there wasn't those of us trying to warn people about this. Anyone paying close enough attention to the CO forum would have read posts from myself and some others telling people to run. There are companies out there that strive to be open, honest, and forthright with their customers and the public. Then there are others that will do whatever it takes to make a buck.
They're all in it to make a buck. Don't kid yourself. No MMO can be made by 1 guy in a garage.
The companies out there that strive to be open, honest and forthright shut down after a few months since they can't afford to pay their bills anymore.
Next time read what someone writes twice before posting. Then after that, read it again so you can edit your mistakes, so you don't look like a fool.
I never said companies aren't in it to make a buck. I said there were companies out there that will do whatever it takes to make a buck. Furthermore, I never specifically mentioned MMO anywhere in my response.
Finally, don't be so ignorant. We both know that there are some companies that have more lawful business practices than others.
Lol, I like your argument:
"We both know that there are some companies that have more lawful business practices than others. "
Of course there are unless all companies are the same, or there's only 1 company left in the world.
We're talking about MMO's, and companies who make them. Don't try to back track and suddenly include every other company making everything under the sun (and even then, they're all out to make a buck).
Are some more ethical than others, of course. "lawful".... I like that.
Why the personal attacks though? They don't help your arguments.
Funcom is now doing this with AoC and TSW too. While i can understand it looks good on paper, after watching the problemson the STO boards now, i would nto know why a company would want to go through that mess again.
I am interested in both of these games but I would not buy another game to get into the beta for them. Unfortunately some people have and will, so when they end up with a game they really didn't want and 2 weeks of a beta for their time they are already going to be irrate.
If you pay, in general, people feel a sense of entitlement and it is very difficult to tell them otherwise and have them listen. I think box sales still need to be looked at but they are not as important as non MMOs. If an online game launches and sells very little, that tells a lot.
"Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better." parrotpholk
And to me, this "mindset" boils over into other areas of the practices the majority of these companies, particularly the so-called "AAA" ones, try to pass off. Many we as a community have argued back and forth over in the very recent past.
Bottom line is I'm convinced that these "people" sit in their little meetings and think up any and every way they can squeeze a dollar out of their potential customer base and back up every suggestion with "Well, they're stupid, they'll pay it anyway. They'll never figure out what we're trying to do or will eventually move to do with these changes."
The only thing the NGE fiasco taught most of these companies was to make such changes in smaller steps in such a way that they seem "harmless". The really, really, really think the majority of gamers are stupid. And the sad thing is that that majority just keeps on giving them money, so they may be right. *shrug*
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
I think it´s fine that companies reward loyal customers with beta-access to new products. Actually I like the idea.
How does offering beta access for purchasing subscription time or pre-orders equal rewarding loyal customers?
Did you even read the article?
IMO buying subscription over longer periods of time warrants a "loyal customer". Like buy two, get the third for free kind of marketing. I don´t see a problem with that.
And yes, I did read the article..........
What I don´t like in MMO marketing is "play free forever", just to have games full of cash-shops..
You're not loyal until you're loyal.
Buying a lifetime subscription to a game I haven't touched yet isn't being loyal. Playing that game for a long time is. Being an active, vocal beta tester is.
I was in the CO beta starting in January. Do you know what Cryptic gave us closed beta testers? Not a damned thing. But if you forked over $250 before even playing the game and knowing whether or not you really like it and will actually become loyal, they were more than happy to shower you with gifts.
Well said. Some people either never learned or quickly forgot that loyalty does have a time requirement that isn't validated until executed. Turbine's method (if they still use it) where you would get such perks if you've been subscribed to one of their games for either 6 months or a year plus (can't remember which it was) is the, in my view, correct way of running a loyalty program.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Can't say there wasn't those of us trying to warn people about this. Anyone paying close enough attention to the CO forum would have read posts from myself and some others telling people to run. There are companies out there that strive to be open, honest, and forthright with their customers and the public. Then there are others that will do whatever it takes to make a buck.
They're all in it to make a buck. Don't kid yourself. No MMO can be made by 1 guy in a garage.
The companies out there that strive to be open, honest and forthright shut down after a few months since they can't afford to pay their bills anymore.
Next time read what someone writes twice before posting. Then after that, read it again so you can edit your mistakes, so you don't look like a fool.
I never said companies aren't in it to make a buck. I said there were companies out there that will do whatever it takes to make a buck. Furthermore, I never specifically mentioned MMO anywhere in my response.
Finally, don't be so ignorant. We both know that there are some companies that have more lawful business practices than others.
Lol, I like your argument:
"We both know that there are some companies that have more lawful business practices than others. "
Of course there are unless all companies are the same, or there's only 1 company left in the world.
We're talking about MMO's, and companies who make them. Don't try to back track and suddenly include every other company making everything under the sun (and even then, they're all out to make a buck).
Are some more ethical than others, of course. "lawful".... I like that.
Why the personal attacks though? They don't help your arguments.
Wow, that must be some good crack you're smoking!
Here in caps and real simple like so you can wrap your little brain around it:
I NEVER SAID COMPANIES ARE NOT OUT TO MAKE A BUCK!
Stop misquoting me to try and make yourself look smarter!
I see where Cryptic is probably dropping the ball with their beta deal, but you have no problem with a company charging a subscription and having an in game shop as well? And I don't really care how miniscule the items are that they are selling, It all should be part of the game. think If I had my pick ...Id let em sell w/e beta' they wanted as long as I knew I could pay 15 bucks a month and have a shot at EVERYTHING designed for the game without having to pay extra.
Interesting how this bothers you , but paying more money for in game content doesn't.
I see where Cryptic is probably dropping the ball with their beta deal, but you have no problem with a company charging a subscription and having an in game shop as well? And I don't really care how miniscule the items are that they are selling, It all should be part of the game. think If I had my pick ...Id let em sell w/e beta' they wanted as long as I knew I could pay 15 bucks a month and have a shot at EVERYTHING designed for the game without having to pay extra. Interesting how this bothers you , but paying more money for in game content doesn't.
Not sure if you meant any of that for me personally, but I can tell you (and you can check it) that I was probably the loudest voice on this site decrying that cash shop (or any other). Same for WoW's recent fall from 'grace'.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I see where Cryptic is probably dropping the ball with their beta deal, but you have no problem with a company charging a subscription and having an in game shop as well? And I don't really care how miniscule the items are that they are selling, It all should be part of the game. think If I had my pick ...Id let em sell w/e beta' they wanted as long as I knew I could pay 15 bucks a month and have a shot at EVERYTHING designed for the game without having to pay extra. Interesting how this bothers you , but paying more money for in game content doesn't.
Not sure if you meant any of that for me personally, but I can tell you (and you can check it) that I was probably the loudest voice on this site decrying that cash shop (or any other). Same for WoW's recent fall from 'grace'.
In related news.. the advert email from FunCom for the "play fer free AoC" promo promises access to the closed beta of the next expansion if you sign up for 3 months or more of play.
Seems as if pay for beta is now an accepted technique as far as dangling carrots in the mmo world goes...
I wasn't lured into the STO hook that came with the 6 month CO subscription. That marketing scheme had disaster written all over it (for CO at least).
On the second point, you are on the mark again. The number of MMO boxes I have collecting dust in my closet with no associated subscriptions proves that for me at least.
So many good comments in this thread - and a good article (one I agree with too!).
Offering Beta 'Test' positions to players of another game was mentioned by Bartle in 'Designing Virtual Worlds':
"Recruit the hard-core players of other games as beta-testers, so you only get the ones with low product loyalty who'll leave your game the moment a newer one comes along. Go for Guild leaders who might bring their whole guild with them."
and concludes:
"Hey Presto! You have a virtual world primed with just the kind of players you don't want!"
The whole Beta "Test" issue is something that has been annoying me for a long time. While I don't like to quote myself in this case it saves me re-typing comments made on Raph Koster's blog 18 months ago:
The discussion there was in relation to Beta Churn and metrics and I had asked what percentage of testers actually 'test'.
The answer was that this information was 'commercially sensitive'
…more and more it looks to me that;
-companies are using Beta Testing to promote their games rather than test?
-Beta Testers do not test but regard the ‘Beta’ as a ‘free game’?
In fact, just last week the MMORPG.com newletter (#128, 19th May 2008) led with 2 of the 3 Feature Articles relating to Beta Signups. (1,000,000 for AoC and 100,000 for Stargate Worlds.)
WAR actually had a visible counter and PotBS also made a big deal of offering 10,000 new beta positions too IIRC?
Why is this a concern?
My interest in this is as a player. I want to play good games.
I am a firm believer that the end consumer should be presented with a “polished” and “finished” product. Advertising your product is one thing but pre-release testing should be just that. I don’t care if you sign up 1,000,000 beta testers – I want to know that the “testers” you select are doing their best to see that I get that product and that the development companies are also addressing the issues those testers are reporting (Again, this is another issue – lately I have my doubts about this too.)
And so I am left with a conundrum. Development companies that are only too keen to release info on how many people have applied to become Beta Testers and release data on how many Beta Testing invites they are issuing – and yet when presented with the simple question of “what percentage actually ‘test’?” claim that the data is “sensitive”?
How would it be a “trade secret”? Unless, of course, the percentage is so low it shows that this sort of “Beta Testing” is ineffective except as a marketing tool?
So, I have huge issues with the way companies are now 'selling' testing postions - and the effect this has on the testing process and ulimately in the final quality of the retail product.
To my mind "testing" should be just that.
If you want to do a "pre-release promotion" call it that.
I have no problem with 'pre release promotions' BTW - I just think it should be clear what is being offered and why.
And if people are expected to pay, then you have to treat it like a product release in itself.
Using the possibility of gaining access to one product by purchasing another is also a dubious practice and may class as 'bait advertising' which is illegal in some cases. The CO/STO Beta cross promotion may have broken the law if Cryptic was Australian based for example.
But one more thing comes out of the article IMHO:
Jon Wood - what do you actually intend to do about it?
You are in a unique position where you can actually do something here.
MMORPG.com is very important to many developers simply because the members and readers here make up a large part of the target market. You also have important industry contacts with people who are also in a position to do something here.
So, MMORPG.com is in a position to say "No. We will not support this. We will not run this promotion offering 'Beta Keys'. We will not run this advert encouraging people to pay for one product in order to get access to the preview of the next."
That's not to say you cannot offer promotions or run adverts - but make it clear to Developers that they need to be clear (and fair) with the end consumer.
Perhaps this article does this to some extent? I hope to see this taken further.
Excellent article, Jon. The "bundling" of the STO beta with one of the Champs sub models was pretty much the knell of doom for CO. I hope STO will be better but based on the extreme brevity of beta vs the announced launch date, I expect a very unfinished and unpolished game.
Along similar lines, what about F2P games that open their cash shops while they're still in beta? One current example is Earth Eternal, which is in open beta. Not only is it's cash shop open, but Sparkplay recently offered a discount on credits in an attempt to drum up business. Why are they taking money during beta when the game isn't really ready for launch? Considering that open beta characters won't be wiped, nor will items purchased for credits be revoked when the game goes "live", it seems to me that Earth Eternal is actually in a "soft launch" phase rather than a true beta. I'm ok with that as long as they call it what it is, but it really ain't beta....
Boasting those box sales numbers are a joke when it comes to MMOs, and I would argue they are setting themselves up to shoot themselves in the foot like the other games did. When happens when people find out that a game sold a million boxes but there isn't a lot of people playing hypothetically? People will figure out retention rates and realize that the game did not live up to the hype. The only reason I can see for boasting sales numbers is to present an image of being a successful game hoping to attract more people. They are playing the same dangerous game that Mythic and Funcom played.
You're exactly right. If a game is a success, those box sales numbers don't matter. We all know what a success it is.
But when those games start failing and losing customers, those box sales numbers just become a "player review" measuring stick.
I used to be one of those that would pre-order MMO games based off the game FAQ and the Dev interviews. But I have painfully learned over the last couple of years, how foolish that is. To be politically incorrect, they just flat out lie, and its found acceptable in the Game Industry now.
Now I wait and get feedback from other players foolish enough to pre-order.
While a rabid fan of Star Trek, and waiting for STO for years. The game is clearly turning out to be another mindless, dumbed down, casual play game that wont hold most people's interests for more than a couple of months. The space combat is cool, and the Bridge Officers are a novel approach ... but tedious repetition is raising its ugly head with almost every news release and press release Cryptic has offered of late.
I think it´s fine that companies reward loyal customers with beta-access to new products. Actually I like the idea.
How does offering beta access for purchasing subscription time or pre-orders equal rewarding loyal customers?
Did you even read the article?
Purchased Subscription Time = Customer (and in this case it was purchased pre-Champions release so i'd throw in Loyal).
Have to say i'm feeling pretty darn bitter about the STO beta thing. Champions should be a F2P game, so my "lifetime" sub doesn't exactly mean anything (and it'll die a real quick death without swapping model soon). And then randomly selecting hundreds of non-paid beta slots (and even running numerous competitions for beta keys) prior to clearing the "paid for" queue just seems... mean.
Aion has no longevity either, it's a pretty F2P import game. And the insane launch queues were "fun" there too. But hey maybe it'll be fine, the subs a year from now (or even people that subbed after the first month) are a massivly better indicator than boxes sold.
I think you need to take a little personal responsibility for your actions. It isn't very wise to purchase a lifetime sub to a game that isn't even out in retail state yet. If they can lure people like you to purchase lifetime subs just to play some unfinished future game then they are going to do it. I myself would never do that.
Along similar lines, what about F2P games that open their cash shops while they're still in beta? One current example is Earth Eternal, which is in open beta. Not only is it's cash shop open, but Sparkplay recently offered a discount on credits in an attempt to drum up business. Why are they taking money during beta when the game isn't really ready for launch? Considering that open beta characters won't be wiped, nor will items purchased for credits be revoked when the game goes "live", it seems to me that Earth Eternal is actually in a "soft launch" phase rather than a true beta. I'm ok with that as long as they call it what it is, but it really ain't beta.... ~Ripper
Once they start taking money I would say "Open for business. Released."
This is just companies trying to have the best of both worlds by saying "It's Beta - so if it all goes wrong then you should have expected that." My guess is their next line would be "We will be unable to give refunds due to the Beta Status..."?
Well, wrong. Touching on fraud territory here.
Here, MMORPG.com, is a chance to start making a difference.
1/ Check to see if rhinok is correct (he will be I'm sure, but you have to check)
2/ Move Earth Eternal to the released games section.
If Sparkplay are not happy - put it to them that MMORPG.com will not support paid betas or F2P games conducting retail business within a 'Beta' as this is contrary to customer / gamer interest (people can get ripped off).
Comments
I've done a few betas over the years, reported the bugs, issued feedback. The problem is, i've never seen any of those games launch with the bugs encountered actually fixed, and the feedback, is often ignored. If you are playing an open beta a couple of weeks before release, and don't like it, then you're not going to like the game. Sure if you are in early beta, thing's might change, but face it, most of these games are still in beta months after the actual release day. They don't even sell complete, finished, polished games on release day.
It's past time these companies stop charing for their client, "the game", and instead go for something like pay 50-60 dollars now, because we are desperate for money at this point, and that will cover 3-4-5-6 months subcriptions because we all know it's going to take at least that long for the game to get to where it shoudl have been on release date, if it even gets that far. Now they get a bunch of people who gobble up hype like it's pie, fork out their money, play for 30 days, don't renew their subscription who then talk about how bad the game was for the next several years. At least this way, most people would try the game again in month 4 or 5 because they already paid for it, and by then, things might have improved.
There has to be a better system then bam, millions of people buy the client, crash and strain servers for a month, massive exodus and a year later all get in invite begging them to return for a welcome back weekend with goodies talking about how much bettert the game is.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
I pretty much completely agree. Although i personally purchased the Champions online lifetime sub to save some cash down the road. Unfortunately they nerfed the hell out of the game on the very morning of retail release. I waited through a few patches but was not playing the game after less than 10 days past retail. I kept checking for changes to the issues the pissed me off, but they never came. Thankfully though, the CS Rep i talked to after the 30 day grace period on the lifetime, honored the cancellation anyway, and i got my 200 bucks back. I still dont feel like i even got my 50 dollars worth for the most part, but it was fun for a few weeks if you include the closed beta and head start. In the end though, i'm one of those retail box sales that never paid a subscription fee.
Yes I totaly agree with you on all accounts of this.
I was like totaly mad that you had to buy champions online to get in the beta of Star Trek, not only that but a lifetuime sub on a game I would not have given you 10 cents to buy. Now While I would dearly love to beta Star Trek online to see if it is going replace my LOTRO. It is just not going to happen. I might not ever play Star Treck online becasue of how Cyrptic handled this with the middle finger in my face saying you dont get to beta as you did not get a lifetime sub to champions online.
Then you got AION, well the fact it has NCSOFT stamped on it was all I needed, for me to go uggg. The promotions with that were dismal as well. I know folks who went to AION and right back a week later to lotro he he enough said.
Then you have LOTRO, and other companies going look at how great we are look at all the box sales we had, look at our player base, when in fact yes the did sale all that. The reall issue is retention, and mean that whole heartedly. How many of the milions in sales are still resubbing.
Case in point. We all know whts going on with the new multi month pricing. Its called they have tons of cancelations for month to month sales. Trying to push out a new pricing option with the ohh look what you get for free if you do this. Folks nothing is free, Barnum Bailey said there is a sucker born every minute, and with these game companies pulling of promotions like this and folks fall for it I would say that old saying is still very true today.
I got to hand it to these compines their creative marketing sure tuns folks off, not on. Me included.
You have to ask yourself if over the past 10 years, has there been a non-paid beta that made a real difference at launch and post launch for most mmorpgs. I'm not sure there has been a realizable difference since I'm not really sure if developers truly engage beta testers to peel off bugs and game-play. I think there's a project plan, and the companies follow that plan and know where and what needs to be nailed down even without the vast majority of players that deemed 'beta testers'. If thats the case, does it really matter if those same companies and developers spin off exclusive beta testing to paid testing since the end result is going to be the same anyway; its now a way for the companies to get cash-flow earlier.
Here's the sad truth: You are the person they can never please with superhero games (Be it Cryptic, or SOE, or NCSoft). Much like the die hard SW fans felt let down by SW:G (before the NGE, the real fans had already been turned off) and LOTRO (Tolkein fans might be the worst about it). And the same thing is happening with STO. Cryptic could NEVER with a thousand years of development make a game to satisify every hard core trekky out there. So they aim at an audience they can make happy and keep subscribing, the average gamer with an interest in Star trek. Same thing happened to AOC and Warhammer, though their fanbase was smaller so its not as noticable or vocal.
Hmmm... well, that the tech may not be there may have some truth, though I gotta say, Freedom Force gave me what I wanted 7 years ago; complete, COMPREHENSIVE customization of powers. Where Cryptic failed to please me is by trying to 1-up CoX with their costume options; a feature which has no bearing on gameplay whatsoever, instead of taking the next logical step in hero customization... POWERS. They had an extraordinary opportunity to make gameplay interesting, AND missed a GOLDEN opportunity: provide costume options on par with CoX, and roll out more costume options available via RMT.
It's possible that the technology isn't there. I think it's more likely, however, that they never considered how much a superheroes powers(and those powers being unique and personal to the character) mean to the creation of a superhero. It's clear in many of the names of the powers: "Eldritch Bolt ", and "Skarns' Bane", for example. Why are they giving specific names for MY characters powers??? That's a total miscalculation.
Their focus was quite wrong. Few were unhappy with all the costume options CoX provided. Going further was a waste of frontloaded development time. Time that could be spent making powers more interesting, or providing adequate content.
Also, I'm a total Tolkein geek, and I LOVE LotRO. it's not exactly like I'd pictured Middle Earth, and it's not perfect, but they did a terrific job. It's the first MMO in years that I'm played for more than 6 months.
They're all in it to make a buck. Don't kid yourself. No MMO can be made by 1 guy in a garage.
The companies out there that strive to be open, honest and forthright shut down after a few months since they can't afford to pay their bills anymore.
Next time read what someone writes twice before posting. Then after that, read it again so you can edit your mistakes, so you don't look like a fool.
I never said companies aren't in it to make a buck. I said there were companies out there that will do whatever it takes to make a buck. Furthermore, I never specifically mentioned MMO anywhere in my response.
Finally, don't be so ignorant. We both know that there are some companies that have more lawful business practices than others.
Lol, I like your argument:
"We both know that there are some companies that have more lawful business practices than others. "
Of course there are unless all companies are the same, or there's only 1 company left in the world.
We're talking about MMO's, and companies who make them. Don't try to back track and suddenly include every other company making everything under the sun (and even then, they're all out to make a buck).
Are some more ethical than others, of course. "lawful".... I like that.
Why the personal attacks though? They don't help your arguments.
I agree with this post.
Funcom is now doing this with AoC and TSW too. While i can understand it looks good on paper, after watching the problemson the STO boards now, i would nto know why a company would want to go through that mess again.
I am interested in both of these games but I would not buy another game to get into the beta for them. Unfortunately some people have and will, so when they end up with a game they really didn't want and 2 weeks of a beta for their time they are already going to be irrate.
If you pay, in general, people feel a sense of entitlement and it is very difficult to tell them otherwise and have them listen. I think box sales still need to be looked at but they are not as important as non MMOs. If an online game launches and sells very little, that tells a lot.
"Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better." parrotpholk
Has a P2P game ever sold lifetime subs and then gone F2P?
That says "lawsuit" to me.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Haha, the picture they used is mine. :P And I do agree with a lot of this, spot on.
And the chorus said, "Aaaaaaaamen"
Preach on Brother Jon, preach on.
And to me, this "mindset" boils over into other areas of the practices the majority of these companies, particularly the so-called "AAA" ones, try to pass off. Many we as a community have argued back and forth over in the very recent past.
Bottom line is I'm convinced that these "people" sit in their little meetings and think up any and every way they can squeeze a dollar out of their potential customer base and back up every suggestion with "Well, they're stupid, they'll pay it anyway. They'll never figure out what we're trying to do or will eventually move to do with these changes."
The only thing the NGE fiasco taught most of these companies was to make such changes in smaller steps in such a way that they seem "harmless". The really, really, really think the majority of gamers are stupid. And the sad thing is that that majority just keeps on giving them money, so they may be right. *shrug*
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
How does offering beta access for purchasing subscription time or pre-orders equal rewarding loyal customers?
Did you even read the article?
IMO buying subscription over longer periods of time warrants a "loyal customer". Like buy two, get the third for free kind of marketing. I don´t see a problem with that.
And yes, I did read the article..........
What I don´t like in MMO marketing is "play free forever", just to have games full of cash-shops..
You're not loyal until you're loyal.
Buying a lifetime subscription to a game I haven't touched yet isn't being loyal. Playing that game for a long time is. Being an active, vocal beta tester is.
I was in the CO beta starting in January. Do you know what Cryptic gave us closed beta testers? Not a damned thing. But if you forked over $250 before even playing the game and knowing whether or not you really like it and will actually become loyal, they were more than happy to shower you with gifts.
Well said. Some people either never learned or quickly forgot that loyalty does have a time requirement that isn't validated until executed. Turbine's method (if they still use it) where you would get such perks if you've been subscribed to one of their games for either 6 months or a year plus (can't remember which it was) is the, in my view, correct way of running a loyalty program.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
They're all in it to make a buck. Don't kid yourself. No MMO can be made by 1 guy in a garage.
The companies out there that strive to be open, honest and forthright shut down after a few months since they can't afford to pay their bills anymore.
Next time read what someone writes twice before posting. Then after that, read it again so you can edit your mistakes, so you don't look like a fool.
I never said companies aren't in it to make a buck. I said there were companies out there that will do whatever it takes to make a buck. Furthermore, I never specifically mentioned MMO anywhere in my response.
Finally, don't be so ignorant. We both know that there are some companies that have more lawful business practices than others.
Lol, I like your argument:
"We both know that there are some companies that have more lawful business practices than others. "
Of course there are unless all companies are the same, or there's only 1 company left in the world.
We're talking about MMO's, and companies who make them. Don't try to back track and suddenly include every other company making everything under the sun (and even then, they're all out to make a buck).
Are some more ethical than others, of course. "lawful".... I like that.
Why the personal attacks though? They don't help your arguments.
Wow, that must be some good crack you're smoking!
Here in caps and real simple like so you can wrap your little brain around it:
I NEVER SAID COMPANIES ARE NOT OUT TO MAKE A BUCK!
Stop misquoting me to try and make yourself look smarter!
Your fail comment, failed.
I see where Cryptic is probably dropping the ball with their beta deal, but you have no problem with a company charging a subscription and having an in game shop as well? And I don't really care how miniscule the items are that they are selling, It all should be part of the game. think If I had my pick ...Id let em sell w/e beta' they wanted as long as I knew I could pay 15 bucks a month and have a shot at EVERYTHING designed for the game without having to pay extra.
Interesting how this bothers you , but paying more money for in game content doesn't.
Not sure if you meant any of that for me personally, but I can tell you (and you can check it) that I was probably the loudest voice on this site decrying that cash shop (or any other). Same for WoW's recent fall from 'grace'.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Not sure if you meant any of that for me personally, but I can tell you (and you can check it) that I was probably the loudest voice on this site decrying that cash shop (or any other). Same for WoW's recent fall from 'grace'.
No, its for the editor.
Great read Jon! You just touched the tip of the iceberg of what 's wrong with a lot of mmo companies on how they handle their games.
In related news.. the advert email from FunCom for the "play fer free AoC" promo promises access to the closed beta of the next expansion if you sign up for 3 months or more of play.
Seems as if pay for beta is now an accepted technique as far as dangling carrots in the mmo world goes...
Excellent article Jon. I agree on both points.
I wasn't lured into the STO hook that came with the 6 month CO subscription. That marketing scheme had disaster written all over it (for CO at least).
On the second point, you are on the mark again. The number of MMO boxes I have collecting dust in my closet with no associated subscriptions proves that for me at least.
There really isn't much I can say other than, "Good article, Jon." I think it's spot on.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
So many good comments in this thread - and a good article (one I agree with too!).
Offering Beta 'Test' positions to players of another game was mentioned by Bartle in 'Designing Virtual Worlds':
"Recruit the hard-core players of other games as beta-testers, so you only get the ones with low product loyalty who'll leave your game the moment a newer one comes along. Go for Guild leaders who might bring their whole guild with them."
and concludes:
"Hey Presto! You have a virtual world primed with just the kind of players you don't want!"
The whole Beta "Test" issue is something that has been annoying me for a long time. While I don't like to quote myself in this case it saves me re-typing comments made on Raph Koster's blog 18 months ago:
http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/05/27/tuesday-mailbag-forum-posters-churn-betas/#more-1754
The discussion there was in relation to Beta Churn and metrics and I had asked what percentage of testers actually 'test'.
The answer was that this information was 'commercially sensitive'
…more and more it looks to me that;
-companies are using Beta Testing to promote their games rather than test?
-Beta Testers do not test but regard the ‘Beta’ as a ‘free game’?
In fact, just last week the MMORPG.com newletter (#128, 19th May 2008) led with 2 of the 3 Feature Articles relating to Beta Signups. (1,000,000 for AoC and 100,000 for Stargate Worlds.)
http://mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm?READ=10719&VIEW=news&GAME=191&bhcp=1
http://mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/242/view/news/read/10750
WAR actually had a visible counter and PotBS also made a big deal of offering 10,000 new beta positions too IIRC?
Why is this a concern?
My interest in this is as a player. I want to play good games.
I am a firm believer that the end consumer should be presented with a “polished” and “finished” product. Advertising your product is one thing but pre-release testing should be just that. I don’t care if you sign up 1,000,000 beta testers – I want to know that the “testers” you select are doing their best to see that I get that product and that the development companies are also addressing the issues those testers are reporting (Again, this is another issue – lately I have my doubts about this too.)
And so I am left with a conundrum. Development companies that are only too keen to release info on how many people have applied to become Beta Testers and release data on how many Beta Testing invites they are issuing – and yet when presented with the simple question of “what percentage actually ‘test’?” claim that the data is “sensitive”?
How would it be a “trade secret”? Unless, of course, the percentage is so low it shows that this sort of “Beta Testing” is ineffective except as a marketing tool?
So, I have huge issues with the way companies are now 'selling' testing postions - and the effect this has on the testing process and ulimately in the final quality of the retail product.
To my mind "testing" should be just that.
If you want to do a "pre-release promotion" call it that.
I have no problem with 'pre release promotions' BTW - I just think it should be clear what is being offered and why.
And if people are expected to pay, then you have to treat it like a product release in itself.
Using the possibility of gaining access to one product by purchasing another is also a dubious practice and may class as 'bait advertising' which is illegal in some cases. The CO/STO Beta cross promotion may have broken the law if Cryptic was Australian based for example.
But one more thing comes out of the article IMHO:
Jon Wood - what do you actually intend to do about it?
You are in a unique position where you can actually do something here.
MMORPG.com is very important to many developers simply because the members and readers here make up a large part of the target market. You also have important industry contacts with people who are also in a position to do something here.
So, MMORPG.com is in a position to say "No. We will not support this. We will not run this promotion offering 'Beta Keys'. We will not run this advert encouraging people to pay for one product in order to get access to the preview of the next."
That's not to say you cannot offer promotions or run adverts - but make it clear to Developers that they need to be clear (and fair) with the end consumer.
Perhaps this article does this to some extent? I hope to see this taken further.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Excellent article, Jon. The "bundling" of the STO beta with one of the Champs sub models was pretty much the knell of doom for CO. I hope STO will be better but based on the extreme brevity of beta vs the announced launch date, I expect a very unfinished and unpolished game.
Along similar lines, what about F2P games that open their cash shops while they're still in beta? One current example is Earth Eternal, which is in open beta. Not only is it's cash shop open, but Sparkplay recently offered a discount on credits in an attempt to drum up business. Why are they taking money during beta when the game isn't really ready for launch? Considering that open beta characters won't be wiped, nor will items purchased for credits be revoked when the game goes "live", it seems to me that Earth Eternal is actually in a "soft launch" phase rather than a true beta. I'm ok with that as long as they call it what it is, but it really ain't beta....
~Ripper
You're exactly right. If a game is a success, those box sales numbers don't matter. We all know what a success it is.
But when those games start failing and losing customers, those box sales numbers just become a "player review" measuring stick.
I used to be one of those that would pre-order MMO games based off the game FAQ and the Dev interviews. But I have painfully learned over the last couple of years, how foolish that is. To be politically incorrect, they just flat out lie, and its found acceptable in the Game Industry now.
Now I wait and get feedback from other players foolish enough to pre-order.
While a rabid fan of Star Trek, and waiting for STO for years. The game is clearly turning out to be another mindless, dumbed down, casual play game that wont hold most people's interests for more than a couple of months. The space combat is cool, and the Bridge Officers are a novel approach ... but tedious repetition is raising its ugly head with almost every news release and press release Cryptic has offered of late.
Its really too bad.
How does offering beta access for purchasing subscription time or pre-orders equal rewarding loyal customers?
Did you even read the article?
Purchased Subscription Time = Customer (and in this case it was purchased pre-Champions release so i'd throw in Loyal).
Have to say i'm feeling pretty darn bitter about the STO beta thing. Champions should be a F2P game, so my "lifetime" sub doesn't exactly mean anything (and it'll die a real quick death without swapping model soon). And then randomly selecting hundreds of non-paid beta slots (and even running numerous competitions for beta keys) prior to clearing the "paid for" queue just seems... mean.
Aion has no longevity either, it's a pretty F2P import game. And the insane launch queues were "fun" there too. But hey maybe it'll be fine, the subs a year from now (or even people that subbed after the first month) are a massivly better indicator than boxes sold.
I think you need to take a little personal responsibility for your actions. It isn't very wise to purchase a lifetime sub to a game that isn't even out in retail state yet. If they can lure people like you to purchase lifetime subs just to play some unfinished future game then they are going to do it. I myself would never do that.
Once they start taking money I would say "Open for business. Released."
This is just companies trying to have the best of both worlds by saying "It's Beta - so if it all goes wrong then you should have expected that." My guess is their next line would be "We will be unable to give refunds due to the Beta Status..."?
Well, wrong. Touching on fraud territory here.
Here, MMORPG.com, is a chance to start making a difference.
1/ Check to see if rhinok is correct (he will be I'm sure, but you have to check)
2/ Move Earth Eternal to the released games section.
If Sparkplay are not happy - put it to them that MMORPG.com will not support paid betas or F2P games conducting retail business within a 'Beta' as this is contrary to customer / gamer interest (people can get ripped off).
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.