There should be a skill set in game that allows one to be able to recognize the power of gear. Similar to how some people could recognize the stats of various equipment (weapons, body armor, etc) just by knowing what it is.
I agree with that statement...
I may be a bit confused here though because I'm not really certain, as of most posts in these forums, as to the reasoning of the OP. My interpretation of the post was that another player should not have automatic knowledge of of the capability of the others weapons and protection, in that it might give that person an advantage or may be the deciding factor in the case of wanting to take up arms against the other...automatic knowledge of ones equipment and stats should not be.
Just wanted to add...I play DDO and think it's a fantastic game; PVP is limited to brawl pits and you can't loot other players...but that aside...there are many, many different skins for protection of the same type and AC as well as different styles of the same type of weapon with the same damage capabilities and two weapons that look the same may have two totally different damage capabilities...so you can't really tell a persons gear capability by looking at it and there is no way to see what kind of damage a players weapon can do without asking...I mean you can kinda, maybe surmise...but...anyway nuff said.
Getting old is mandatory...growing up is optional.
The individuals who think that inspections are useful make an ignorant step: they assume they know the reasoning behind what a person wears. Because I'm a warrior wearing spell power gear hardly makes me stupid. I could very well be wearing it, logged out with it on, just for the look. The stupidity here is assuming that *you know best*, as the inspector, as to how the gear was acquired, or why it's being worn. Assuming, again, that the person needs help, when they possibly don't want it or possibly already have sought it and are working on tips they've previously received. It is the inspector, in all cases, who sees the information on the screen and draws their own conclusions- because they still haven't asked or inquired or performed any sort of social interaction. *An inspection system furthers an asocial community*
But what if I'm in a raid or something of the like where there are people who depend on someone's performance? Well, again, gear- even in a gear value-inflated game like WoW- isn't everything. A simple being where you are supposed to be during PhaseX of an encounter has what, exactly, to do with gear?
Lastly, to the inspectors who 'know best'... the thing that gear promotes is a system that encourages the ultimate in min/maxing. Where this system gets boggled down, is that someone (you, the inspector) reads something on some site, accepts it as fact because there is supporting proof, and will critique anyone who isn't close to that stereotype. The issue? It hassles the tester. Someone who is trying to find out either for themself, or to disprove a running theory, if 'this way' is indeed the 'best way'. This system's usage prevents the system from offering more information- and instead- renders people ignorant!
I'll use my time in WoW during BC as an example, because it is there that I can claim the most credibility. I never got a good 2nd trinket. I had the Bloodlust Brooch and whatever it is that dropped from that Sunwell 5man instance. I killed Felmyst long before I got a DST to drop, which was from a 1st 25man tier raid instance. I also had to beg borrow and steal for weapons. As a warrior, weapons are a huge component to the dps you do... and yet I ran with freebies from PvP, crafted, and badge weapons. The only people who judged me and tried to 'offer advice' on gear, were those who didn't know me to begin with- outside-of-guildies. Those who did know me, and had social interactions with me, didn't care about the gear.
I ran with a high +hit count. According to all the spreadsheets on EJ and other places, there was a 'mathmatically proven' gearset I needed to mimic in order to pump out maximum dps. My +hit count was a solid 7% higher than the 'suggested' number- which grossly took away from other stats. Tell me why, then, I was able to achieve a top 25 dps for my class (at the time of its posting)? I was testing gear, figuring out what worked for me, and as a result, can claim to being well within the top 1% of all WoW raiders, much less WoW gamers. 'But you would have done even better had you followed the proven method'- to this I say 'bollocks'. I tried that method, and it didn't work for me. My gear was a result of *me knowing what was best for my avatar*. Anyone inspecting my gear could make any assumption they wanted, but would have been terribly wrong.
I also was a spec that was different, and at one point was a hybrid tank/dps spec, performing as an Illidan Flame Tank while being able to turn around and still pump out guild top 5 dps (guild was a top 200). My spec was a 'messed up spec'... but yet it did nothing to get in the way of my abilities as a gamer to make it work- even in such a gear-based game as WoW.
The system of inspecting achievements and gear and whatever else is a system that absolutely fails to the very ends it tries or attempts to facilitate.
If we cross paths in game, you should be able to take a look at my avatar, and be able to recognize for yourself a little bit as to where I've been and what I've done. Beyond that, you should *require* a social interation to take place (supported in the aforementioned text). Specifics should be completely private.
I would wholeheartedly embrace a game that allowed you to list 5 'achievements' that you have performed. A system much like a resume, limited to '1 page' (5 items), so as to prevent a descrimination based on numbers and not quality. Allowing the player, not the inspector, to tailor what, if anything, they want to make commonly accessible. If the player is good, they will have some sort of achievement that denotes their competance. If the player is bad, they won't have those achievements. By limiting the system, you can't require a certain achievement to be a descriminator because only 5 would be viewable.
A new achievement is popped up, but already 5 are present... you gotta throw one away (a game of cards anyone?). If you're not down to particiate, your 'resume' can be set to private...
This would get at the heart of the issue. Gear doesn't show how competent you are, or could be. Previous displays of competence shows how competent you *were* and is the best indicator of how competent you *could be*.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
I really don't care about the privacy thing. What annoys me is the elitists pricks telling me my gear is inadequate, when it is more then sufficient for heroic dungeons. That's exactly what my gear is for! I apologize for not spending every waking minute of my life to do raids to be over-geared for heroics /sarcasm
Well thats the whole point of the thread. I wouldnt give a shit if people wanted to see my stuff if there weren't asshats that used it as epeen ammunition.
Its not really the mechanic thats the problem its the god damn players.
With that said is it the developers fault that the players of their game use a feature to harass people? No not at first.
Over time though they should react to things like this, we see it all the time when Devs take things away like Global chats that are used to flame the hell out of people.
Devs should understand their playerbase and react accordingly.
I got pulled into an 2 drake OS group by my wife the other day to shut up one of those elitist blowhards. I quit playing WoW a few months back and sent her most of my toons. One of the rogues in the group kept bitching about the other DPS' gear and since my wife is a healer she told the raid leader (also her guild leader) that I'd take my old DK (in mostly naxx 25) and replace her (since they had another healer ready to go from their guild) to shut this guy up. Everyone in her guild (which made up most of the run) started talking about what was going to happen and most of them knew me from before so they really wanted to see this dude to eat some crow.
So I sat down and got on my vent ID and once I got in the group the rogue started in on me and my outdated gear. I let him know how bad it was going to look when someone who hasn't touched WoW in months shows him up on what used to be my 4th alt. The trash talk got pretty heated and funny on vent. Long story short I out DPSed him in every way, shape, and form. I also brought up to him the fact that he ate 2 lava walls while I didn't get hit by any and he should shut his mouth and enjoy the ride the next time a good raiding guild allows him to be in one of their off night runs cause even retired players are better than he is.
More on topic, I agree with you on this "gear score"/achievement bs. I got tired of the gear hamster wheel myself so I quit after quite afew years. I don't miss the elitist attitudes from pugs. I used to pug a lot since I had quite a few toons and there was almost always an asshat that wanted to worry more about other peoples gear or DPS instead of doing the fights right. I hope we get a game that brings the utility of a class back to PVE raids. Then maybe numbers or gear won't matter so much.
2. Omg I don't care but you guys are over-exaggerating.
3. Omg unfair advantage!
and one really nice one that I have to agree with.
4. How do i know what to get if I can't see in-game examples?
Now in Reverse.
Although i agree a-lot with 4. All of them are valid opinions. FFXI is crazy with different equips and different stats, most of what i got, I got because i saw someone else with it and learned that something like that item exists (for my level).
The Unfair advantage in #3 comes in play in games like Eve Online as explained before. If i can see what my enemy ship is outfitted with, I would have a gamebreakingly SEVERE advantage. (for example. outfitting armor and shields that deflect my target's weaponry type and equipping stuff that they have no defense against.)
In #2, "I don't care you guys are exaggerating", If your gonna be neutral, don't bother posting other than stating your apathetic. Probably haven't done anything based on equips or been rejected because of them. Or you really -just- -don't -care- lol. Although i do agree with the "Saves time issue" stated before. Well said.
And it comes full circle back to #1 "Omg Elitists". With the whole armory thing and the value given by your loot and groups only accepting above a certain number. Although i have to accept it to be a valid way to quickly estimate and put groups together efficiently. It does take out the "community" factor in a-lot of games when your accepted as player #30045456 with 345 points and XYZ Achievements.
Sorry for the semi-long post, but it's good to get the point across effectively.
Comments
I agree with that statement...
I may be a bit confused here though because I'm not really certain, as of most posts in these forums, as to the reasoning of the OP. My interpretation of the post was that another player should not have automatic knowledge of of the capability of the others weapons and protection, in that it might give that person an advantage or may be the deciding factor in the case of wanting to take up arms against the other...automatic knowledge of ones equipment and stats should not be.
Just wanted to add...I play DDO and think it's a fantastic game; PVP is limited to brawl pits and you can't loot other players...but that aside...there are many, many different skins for protection of the same type and AC as well as different styles of the same type of weapon with the same damage capabilities and two weapons that look the same may have two totally different damage capabilities...so you can't really tell a persons gear capability by looking at it and there is no way to see what kind of damage a players weapon can do without asking...I mean you can kinda, maybe surmise...but...anyway nuff said.
Getting old is mandatory...growing up is optional.
The individuals who think that inspections are useful make an ignorant step: they assume they know the reasoning behind what a person wears. Because I'm a warrior wearing spell power gear hardly makes me stupid. I could very well be wearing it, logged out with it on, just for the look. The stupidity here is assuming that *you know best*, as the inspector, as to how the gear was acquired, or why it's being worn. Assuming, again, that the person needs help, when they possibly don't want it or possibly already have sought it and are working on tips they've previously received. It is the inspector, in all cases, who sees the information on the screen and draws their own conclusions- because they still haven't asked or inquired or performed any sort of social interaction. *An inspection system furthers an asocial community*
But what if I'm in a raid or something of the like where there are people who depend on someone's performance? Well, again, gear- even in a gear value-inflated game like WoW- isn't everything. A simple being where you are supposed to be during PhaseX of an encounter has what, exactly, to do with gear?
Lastly, to the inspectors who 'know best'... the thing that gear promotes is a system that encourages the ultimate in min/maxing. Where this system gets boggled down, is that someone (you, the inspector) reads something on some site, accepts it as fact because there is supporting proof, and will critique anyone who isn't close to that stereotype. The issue? It hassles the tester. Someone who is trying to find out either for themself, or to disprove a running theory, if 'this way' is indeed the 'best way'. This system's usage prevents the system from offering more information- and instead- renders people ignorant!
I'll use my time in WoW during BC as an example, because it is there that I can claim the most credibility. I never got a good 2nd trinket. I had the Bloodlust Brooch and whatever it is that dropped from that Sunwell 5man instance. I killed Felmyst long before I got a DST to drop, which was from a 1st 25man tier raid instance. I also had to beg borrow and steal for weapons. As a warrior, weapons are a huge component to the dps you do... and yet I ran with freebies from PvP, crafted, and badge weapons. The only people who judged me and tried to 'offer advice' on gear, were those who didn't know me to begin with- outside-of-guildies. Those who did know me, and had social interactions with me, didn't care about the gear.
I ran with a high +hit count. According to all the spreadsheets on EJ and other places, there was a 'mathmatically proven' gearset I needed to mimic in order to pump out maximum dps. My +hit count was a solid 7% higher than the 'suggested' number- which grossly took away from other stats. Tell me why, then, I was able to achieve a top 25 dps for my class (at the time of its posting)? I was testing gear, figuring out what worked for me, and as a result, can claim to being well within the top 1% of all WoW raiders, much less WoW gamers. 'But you would have done even better had you followed the proven method'- to this I say 'bollocks'. I tried that method, and it didn't work for me. My gear was a result of *me knowing what was best for my avatar*. Anyone inspecting my gear could make any assumption they wanted, but would have been terribly wrong.
I also was a spec that was different, and at one point was a hybrid tank/dps spec, performing as an Illidan Flame Tank while being able to turn around and still pump out guild top 5 dps (guild was a top 200). My spec was a 'messed up spec'... but yet it did nothing to get in the way of my abilities as a gamer to make it work- even in such a gear-based game as WoW.
The system of inspecting achievements and gear and whatever else is a system that absolutely fails to the very ends it tries or attempts to facilitate.
If we cross paths in game, you should be able to take a look at my avatar, and be able to recognize for yourself a little bit as to where I've been and what I've done. Beyond that, you should *require* a social interation to take place (supported in the aforementioned text). Specifics should be completely private.
I would wholeheartedly embrace a game that allowed you to list 5 'achievements' that you have performed. A system much like a resume, limited to '1 page' (5 items), so as to prevent a descrimination based on numbers and not quality. Allowing the player, not the inspector, to tailor what, if anything, they want to make commonly accessible. If the player is good, they will have some sort of achievement that denotes their competance. If the player is bad, they won't have those achievements. By limiting the system, you can't require a certain achievement to be a descriminator because only 5 would be viewable.
A new achievement is popped up, but already 5 are present... you gotta throw one away (a game of cards anyone?). If you're not down to particiate, your 'resume' can be set to private...
This would get at the heart of the issue. Gear doesn't show how competent you are, or could be. Previous displays of competence shows how competent you *were* and is the best indicator of how competent you *could be*.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
Well thats the whole point of the thread. I wouldnt give a shit if people wanted to see my stuff if there weren't asshats that used it as epeen ammunition.
Its not really the mechanic thats the problem its the god damn players.
With that said is it the developers fault that the players of their game use a feature to harass people? No not at first.
Over time though they should react to things like this, we see it all the time when Devs take things away like Global chats that are used to flame the hell out of people.
Devs should understand their playerbase and react accordingly.
I got pulled into an 2 drake OS group by my wife the other day to shut up one of those elitist blowhards. I quit playing WoW a few months back and sent her most of my toons. One of the rogues in the group kept bitching about the other DPS' gear and since my wife is a healer she told the raid leader (also her guild leader) that I'd take my old DK (in mostly naxx 25) and replace her (since they had another healer ready to go from their guild) to shut this guy up. Everyone in her guild (which made up most of the run) started talking about what was going to happen and most of them knew me from before so they really wanted to see this dude to eat some crow.
So I sat down and got on my vent ID and once I got in the group the rogue started in on me and my outdated gear. I let him know how bad it was going to look when someone who hasn't touched WoW in months shows him up on what used to be my 4th alt. The trash talk got pretty heated and funny on vent. Long story short I out DPSed him in every way, shape, and form. I also brought up to him the fact that he ate 2 lava walls while I didn't get hit by any and he should shut his mouth and enjoy the ride the next time a good raiding guild allows him to be in one of their off night runs cause even retired players are better than he is.
More on topic, I agree with you on this "gear score"/achievement bs. I got tired of the gear hamster wheel myself so I quit after quite afew years. I don't miss the elitist attitudes from pugs. I used to pug a lot since I had quite a few toons and there was almost always an asshat that wanted to worry more about other peoples gear or DPS instead of doing the fights right. I hope we get a game that brings the utility of a class back to PVE raids. Then maybe numbers or gear won't matter so much.
I'm seeing 4 lines of thought here.
1. Omg loot elitists!
2. Omg I don't care but you guys are over-exaggerating.
3. Omg unfair advantage!
and one really nice one that I have to agree with.
4. How do i know what to get if I can't see in-game examples?
Now in Reverse.
Although i agree a-lot with 4. All of them are valid opinions. FFXI is crazy with different equips and different stats, most of what i got, I got because i saw someone else with it and learned that something like that item exists (for my level).
The Unfair advantage in #3 comes in play in games like Eve Online as explained before. If i can see what my enemy ship is outfitted with, I would have a gamebreakingly SEVERE advantage. (for example. outfitting armor and shields that deflect my target's weaponry type and equipping stuff that they have no defense against.)
In #2, "I don't care you guys are exaggerating", If your gonna be neutral, don't bother posting other than stating your apathetic. Probably haven't done anything based on equips or been rejected because of them. Or you really -just- -don't -care- lol. Although i do agree with the "Saves time issue" stated before. Well said.
And it comes full circle back to #1 "Omg Elitists". With the whole armory thing and the value given by your loot and groups only accepting above a certain number. Although i have to accept it to be a valid way to quickly estimate and put groups together efficiently. It does take out the "community" factor in a-lot of games when your accepted as player #30045456 with 345 points and XYZ Achievements.
Sorry for the semi-long post, but it's good to get the point across effectively.
uhhhh.... in most MMO's you can enable a feature that blocks people from viewing that information.... Fail rant much?
armory,learn to read the whole post/