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Group-lovers: the REAL freaks in the MMO world...?
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That's only because if players are not encouraged to group with each other, they won't group.
Path of least resistance. Soloing is easier to get started because grouping takes effort to gather folks before starting. This is why grouping needs a bit of incentive to encourage people to put in the initial effort for greater rewards. This reward could be better loot, more xp for grouping or just seeing content that you couldn't otherwise see solo.
The problem is during leveling there is none of these incentives right now for grouping. There isn't even a solid grouping path of progression through most MMOs now like there is for solo. I for one don't hate soloing or only promote grouping. I like both. I have to say though half you guys here act as if you have some actually hate for people that enjoy grouping and I do not understand that. These are MMOs, I suspect in some fashion grouping will be encouraged be it end of the game or all the way through.
I personally miss the grouping leveling but I am by no means promoting removing soloing. There just needs some reason to group as well through the game even if grouping has it's own progression path through the game.
I see you are using the word "could" be better on loot when it comes rewarding group-play. Then I ask, why should group play be better rewarded when it comes to loot? I really fail to see why one playstyle should be better rewarded than the other.
As you already have understood, most people dont WANT to group, and still you want that playstyle to be better rewarded...?
No thanks, I want to eat my dinner by myself when I am at the restaurant as well, not with a bunch of strangers up in my food. Same goes for when I play MMO's. Same price, same result but different approach.
"Most people don't want to group" Who has determined this you? Your post are insulting in nature and assuming. I have found that a lot of people enjoy grouping but they didn't enjoy not having an option not to if they did not want to. I will not say everyone felt this way but that has been my own experience. The reason if you would have read above I believe more incentives are needed to form groups is because of the additional time requirements to form them. This just encourages people to group.
I totally agree that there should always be group based content in an MMO, because not everything should be able to be tackled by just one person. Group content should always exist for a bigger challenge and a better gameplay dynamic for those who chose to do it. Solo players dont think that group content shouldnt exist, as many of them will do group content just to break up the monotiny of doing the same thing over and over everyday.
What soloers do want is other paths of advancement, even some that dont focus on combat. This is where the modern MMO is lacking as developers focus on either solo friendly or group centric gameplay. MMOs have gone from being a virtual world where a player had many options for fun (deep crafting for the people who just want to advance through crafting, thick and mysterious lore for the singular player to work through and of course dungeons that challenge even the most seasoned group of players - pretty much a 'choose your own adventure' style of game) to a basic A to B fight and grind game with little emphasis on community and more on combat and gear grabbing.
And no matter what people say, you cannot blame Blizzard and WoW for what has happened. Blizzard made a game for people who didnt care to play the deeper MMOs that required time and effort. They made a game that was fun from the start, sort of a 'My First MMO' that allowed player to jump in and experience the basics of an MMO. They didnt ask other companies to stop being original or to copy their game from the code up. Blame the other companies who decided that numbers were more important than being original.
As for the few vocal soloers who want everything to be equal (such as raid equiv gear without raiding) ignore them. Should solo players have access to good gear; gear that is better than basic quest drops? Sure. Should that gear require more challenge than normal questing? Yeah. Should that gear be on par with raid quality gear? Nope. Would I mind running around in that gear versus Raid gear? No, I wouldnt. In fact I would be proud to for the fact that 'I' worked hard to get it, 'I' spent the time and effort for it. Would I envy the raider who has better gear than me? No, because I know that if I wanted that quality gear all I would have to do is commit myself to doing the work with other people, which is another option for me if I get tired of the whole solo thing.
And to the 'omg group!' fanatics, grouping mechanics are the same as they have been, with the same rewards for the same effort. Just because there were 1 or 2 games in the past that you played where it was nothing but grouping, doesnt mean the whole genre has been turned on its ear or that you have been forgotten.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Does it matter if it's selfish or not? Is it important to you that everyone like to play the sort of game you like?
Would it be terrible of other people played games you dont' like to play?
Now you are getting to the point...
MMO's have been catering group-players for 10 years, without soloers whining at all. Now this is changing, rapidly. Still we are quite silent compared to the group-fanatics. Now you whine about we soloers getting access to almost same gear as you do. Go figure why...
Still, no suggestion other than that you want your selfish desires catered (loot). Is that really all you can come up with? You have at least given us enough info to understand why you are whining so much about this. And you wonder why the MMO world is becoming more solo friendly... Well, I am happy it is changing. So we dont have to be around selfish & egocentric people like in the "good old days". To me, it is quite nice that group-fanatics are playing games I dont like. The fewer selfish idiots around in my game, the better gaming experience.
It seems we soloers got the modern MMO's, which we prefer, while group-fanatics got the old MMO's where you state theres so much better. Happy me, happy you. Right?
Why are you still arguing about why I like a game?
You're trying to tell me why I have fun in a game.
How could you do that, and why would you?
I understand, you want a game where you can solo everything. Why would I mind that you want that sort of game, or that it makes you happy?
I certainly dont' mind if you want to play a solo MMORPG. I wouldn't play it, but I don't eat brussel sprouts either. doesn't bother me if someone else likes them.
Why are you so bothered that I don't like your solo game and want to play something different?
I am not. You are seeing things that doesnt exist. You are rambling here, again. Stop asking me these questions, like I could care about what you like or not. Your preferances mean nothing to me. Absolutely nothing.
Now why wont ANY of you group-fanatics come up with one suggestion that MMO's genre so desperately are in need of...?
What you all must understand is that the MMO need be solo friendly, not solo-hostile. This is a proven "fact" for any MMO if it is to have at least somewhat success. Soloers didnt ask for this, the MMO developers themselves understood this. Now they are offering it to us. Which you should be quite thankful for. Or else your games would be even more desolate than they are today.
Whether you like or not, an MMO would be perfectly fine without any forced-grouping or having no content at all which requires grouping, while the opposite (group content exclusively) would just not work.
Chew on that.
Do you see how the green statements are the opposite of the red statements?
You don't care if I play a grouping game. Ok great! I don't care if you play a solo game!
But then you say I have to understand that an MMO has to be solo friendly.
Why do I have to understand that? Becuase you like solo games. Yes, I get that.
But I like grouping games. Is that ok with you?
Does it matter if it's selfish or not? Is it important to you that everyone like to play the sort of game you like?
Would it be terrible of other people played games you dont' like to play?
Now you are getting to the point...
MMO's have been catering group-players for 10 years, without soloers whining at all. Now this is changing, rapidly. Still we are quite silent compared to the group-fanatics. Now you whine about we soloers getting access to almost same gear as you do. Go figure why...
Still, no suggestion other than that you want your selfish desires catered (loot). Is that really all you can come up with? You have at least given us enough info to understand why you are whining so much about this. And you wonder why the MMO world is becoming more solo friendly... Well, I am happy it is changing. So we dont have to be around selfish & egocentric people like in the "good old days". To me, it is quite nice that group-fanatics are playing games I dont like. The fewer selfish idiots around in my game, the better gaming experience.
It seems we soloers got the modern MMO's, which we prefer, while group-fanatics got the old MMO's where you state theres so much better. Happy me, happy you. Right?
Why are you still arguing about why I like a game?
You're trying to tell me why I have fun in a game.
How could you do that, and why would you?
I understand, you want a game where you can solo everything. Why would I mind that you want that sort of game, or that it makes you happy?
I certainly dont' mind if you want to play a solo MMORPG. I wouldn't play it, but I don't eat brussel sprouts either. doesn't bother me if someone else likes them.
Why are you so bothered that I don't like your solo game and want to play something different?
I am not. You are seeing things that doesnt exist. You are rambling here, again. Stop asking me these questions, like I could care about what you like or not. Your preferances mean nothing to me. Absolutely nothing.
Now why wont ANY of you group-fanatics come up with one suggestion that MMO's genre so desperately are in need of...?
What you all must understand is that the MMO need be solo friendly, not solo-hostile. This is a proven "fact" for any MMO if it is to have at least somewhat success. Soloers didnt ask for this, the MMO developers themselves understood this. Now they are offering it to us. Which you should be quite thankful for. Or else your games would be even more desolate than they are today.
Whether you like or not, an MMO would be perfectly fine without any forced-grouping or having no content at all which requires grouping, while the opposite (group content exclusively) would just not work.
Chew on that.
Do you see how the green statements are the opposite of the red statements?
You don't care if I play a grouping game. Ok great! I don't care if you play a solo game!
But then you say I have to understand that an MMO has to be solo friendly.
Why do I have to understand that? Becuase you like solo games. Yes, I get that.
But I like grouping games. Is that ok with you?
I thought Hellgate did a good job of solo'ing and grouping experience. Almost everything was solo'able in the game, however, if you wanted a higher challenge, the game would scale up in mob/AI difficulty, damage, and hitpoints, scalling up from 2 player parties to the hardest in a full 5 player party. Pretty much most mobs could one-hit kill any party member in a full party. But what made it worth while for group-players was that as the game scaled up to the hardest difficulty in full parties, the rewards would also scale up to increased chances of rare and unique drops. Also, elite/rare/epic mobs wondering monster check % chance appearances would increase in full parties, which in turn would increase the chances of higher quality of item drop (as epic/elite mobs automatically had higher quality drop tables).
I just wished more games would implement this structure as to make both parties and solo'ers happy.
Does it matter if it's selfish or not? Is it important to you that everyone like to play the sort of game you like?
Would it be terrible of other people played games you dont' like to play?
Now you are getting to the point...
MMO's have been catering group-players for 10 years, without soloers whining at all. Now this is changing, rapidly. Still we are quite silent compared to the group-fanatics. Now you whine about we soloers getting access to almost same gear as you do. Go figure why...
Still, no suggestion other than that you want your selfish desires catered (loot). Is that really all you can come up with? You have at least given us enough info to understand why you are whining so much about this. And you wonder why the MMO world is becoming more solo friendly... Well, I am happy it is changing. So we dont have to be around selfish & egocentric people like in the "good old days". To me, it is quite nice that group-fanatics are playing games I dont like. The fewer selfish idiots around in my game, the better gaming experience.
It seems we soloers got the modern MMO's, which we prefer, while group-fanatics got the old MMO's where you state theres so much better. Happy me, happy you. Right?
Why are you still arguing about why I like a game?
You're trying to tell me why I have fun in a game.
How could you do that, and why would you?
I understand, you want a game where you can solo everything. Why would I mind that you want that sort of game, or that it makes you happy?
I certainly dont' mind if you want to play a solo MMORPG. I wouldn't play it, but I don't eat brussel sprouts either. doesn't bother me if someone else likes them.
Why are you so bothered that I don't like your solo game and want to play something different?
I am not. You are seeing things that doesnt exist. You are rambling here, again. Stop asking me these questions, like I could care about what you like or not. Your preferances mean nothing to me. Absolutely nothing.
Now why wont ANY of you group-fanatics come up with one suggestion that MMO's genre so desperately are in need of...?
What you all must understand is that the MMO need be solo friendly, not solo-hostile. This is a proven "fact" for any MMO if it is to have at least somewhat success. Soloers didnt ask for this, the MMO developers themselves understood this. Now they are offering it to us. Which you should be quite thankful for. Or else your games would be even more desolate than they are today.
Whether you like or not, an MMO would be perfectly fine without any forced-grouping or having no content at all which requires grouping, while the opposite (group content exclusively) would just not work.
Chew on that.
Do you see how the green statements are the opposite of the red statements?
You don't care if I play a grouping game. Ok great! I don't care if you play a solo game!
But then you say I have to understand that an MMO has to be solo friendly.
Why do I have to understand that? Becuase you like solo games. Yes, I get that.
But I like grouping games. Is that ok with you?
I thought Hellgate did a good job of solo'ing and grouping experience. Almost everything was solo'able in the game, however, if you wanted a higher challenge, the game would scale up in mob/AI difficulty, damage, and hitpoints, scalling up from 2 player parties to the hardest in a full 5 player party. Pretty much most mobs could one-hit kill any party member in a full party. But what made it worth while for group-players was that as the game scaled up to the hardest difficulty in full parties, the rewards would also scale up to increased chances of rare and unique drops. Also, elite/rare/epic mobs wondering monster check % chance appearances would increase in full parties, which in turn would increase the chances of higher quality of item drop (as epic/elite mobs automatically had higher quality drop tables).
I just wished more games would implement this structure as to make both parties and solo'ers happy.
not to mention they added some groups zones that could be soloed but it was a huge pain in the ass
i loved hellgate london and i wish it didn't tank... i had too much fun playing it
Does it matter if it's selfish or not? Is it important to you that everyone like to play the sort of game you like?
Would it be terrible of other people played games you dont' like to play?
Now you are getting to the point...
MMO's have been catering group-players for 10 years, without soloers whining at all. Now this is changing, rapidly. Still we are quite silent compared to the group-fanatics. Now you whine about we soloers getting access to almost same gear as you do. Go figure why...
Still, no suggestion other than that you want your selfish desires catered (loot). Is that really all you can come up with? You have at least given us enough info to understand why you are whining so much about this. And you wonder why the MMO world is becoming more solo friendly... Well, I am happy it is changing. So we dont have to be around selfish & egocentric people like in the "good old days". To me, it is quite nice that group-fanatics are playing games I dont like. The fewer selfish idiots around in my game, the better gaming experience.
It seems we soloers got the modern MMO's, which we prefer, while group-fanatics got the old MMO's where you state theres so much better. Happy me, happy you. Right?
Why are you still arguing about why I like a game?
You're trying to tell me why I have fun in a game.
How could you do that, and why would you?
I understand, you want a game where you can solo everything. Why would I mind that you want that sort of game, or that it makes you happy?
I certainly dont' mind if you want to play a solo MMORPG. I wouldn't play it, but I don't eat brussel sprouts either. doesn't bother me if someone else likes them.
Why are you so bothered that I don't like your solo game and want to play something different?
I am not. You are seeing things that doesnt exist. You are rambling here, again. Stop asking me these questions, like I could care about what you like or not. Your preferances mean nothing to me. Absolutely nothing.
Now why wont ANY of you group-fanatics come up with one suggestion that MMO's genre so desperately are in need of...?
What you all must understand is that the MMO need be solo friendly, not solo-hostile. This is a proven "fact" for any MMO if it is to have at least somewhat success. Soloers didnt ask for this, the MMO developers themselves understood this. Now they are offering it to us. Which you should be quite thankful for. Or else your games would be even more desolate than they are today.
Whether you like or not, an MMO would be perfectly fine without any forced-grouping or having no content at all which requires grouping, while the opposite (group content exclusively) would just not work.
Chew on that.
Do you see how the green statements are the opposite of the red statements?
You don't care if I play a grouping game. Ok great! I don't care if you play a solo game!
But then you say I have to understand that an MMO has to be solo friendly.
Why do I have to understand that? Becuase you like solo games. Yes, I get that.
But I like grouping games. Is that ok with you?
I thought Hellgate did a good job of solo'ing and grouping experience. Almost everything was solo'able in the game, however, if you wanted a higher challenge, the game would scale up in mob/AI difficulty, damage, and hitpoints, scalling up from 2 player parties to the hardest in a full 5 player party. Pretty much most mobs could one-hit kill any party member in a full party. But what made it worth while for group-players was that as the game scaled up to the hardest difficulty in full parties, the rewards would also scale up to increased chances of rare and unique drops. Also, elite/rare/epic mobs wondering monster check % chance appearances would increase in full parties, which in turn would increase the chances of higher quality of item drop (as epic/elite mobs automatically had higher quality drop tables).
I just wished more games would implement this structure as to make both parties and solo'ers happy.
not to mention they added some groups zones that could be soloed but it was a huge pain in the ass
i loved hellgate london and i wish it didn't tank... i had too much fun playing it
But Hellgate was a multiplayer co-op game, not an MMORPG.I"M having fun playing co-op Borderlands, but ity's not an MMORPG.
Does it matter if it's selfish or not? Is it important to you that everyone like to play the sort of game you like?
Would it be terrible of other people played games you dont' like to play?
Now you are getting to the point...
MMO's have been catering group-players for 10 years, without soloers whining at all. Now this is changing, rapidly. Still we are quite silent compared to the group-fanatics. Now you whine about we soloers getting access to almost same gear as you do. Go figure why...
Still, no suggestion other than that you want your selfish desires catered (loot). Is that really all you can come up with? You have at least given us enough info to understand why you are whining so much about this. And you wonder why the MMO world is becoming more solo friendly... Well, I am happy it is changing. So we dont have to be around selfish & egocentric people like in the "good old days". To me, it is quite nice that group-fanatics are playing games I dont like. The fewer selfish idiots around in my game, the better gaming experience.
It seems we soloers got the modern MMO's, which we prefer, while group-fanatics got the old MMO's where you state theres so much better. Happy me, happy you. Right?
Why are you still arguing about why I like a game?
You're trying to tell me why I have fun in a game.
How could you do that, and why would you?
I understand, you want a game where you can solo everything. Why would I mind that you want that sort of game, or that it makes you happy?
I certainly dont' mind if you want to play a solo MMORPG. I wouldn't play it, but I don't eat brussel sprouts either. doesn't bother me if someone else likes them.
Why are you so bothered that I don't like your solo game and want to play something different?
I am not. You are seeing things that doesnt exist. You are rambling here, again. Stop asking me these questions, like I could care about what you like or not. Your preferances mean nothing to me. Absolutely nothing.
Now why wont ANY of you group-fanatics come up with one suggestion that MMO's genre so desperately are in need of...?
What you all must understand is that the MMO need be solo friendly, not solo-hostile. This is a proven "fact" for any MMO if it is to have at least somewhat success. Soloers didnt ask for this, the MMO developers themselves understood this. Now they are offering it to us. Which you should be quite thankful for. Or else your games would be even more desolate than they are today.
Whether you like or not, an MMO would be perfectly fine without any forced-grouping or having no content at all which requires grouping, while the opposite (group content exclusively) would just not work.
Chew on that.
Do you see how the green statements are the opposite of the red statements?
You don't care if I play a grouping game. Ok great! I don't care if you play a solo game!
But then you say I have to understand that an MMO has to be solo friendly.
Why do I have to understand that? Becuase you like solo games. Yes, I get that.
But I like grouping games. Is that ok with you?
I thought Hellgate did a good job of solo'ing and grouping experience. Almost everything was solo'able in the game, however, if you wanted a higher challenge, the game would scale up in mob/AI difficulty, damage, and hitpoints, scalling up from 2 player parties to the hardest in a full 5 player party. Pretty much most mobs could one-hit kill any party member in a full party. But what made it worth while for group-players was that as the game scaled up to the hardest difficulty in full parties, the rewards would also scale up to increased chances of rare and unique drops. Also, elite/rare/epic mobs wondering monster check % chance appearances would increase in full parties, which in turn would increase the chances of higher quality of item drop (as epic/elite mobs automatically had higher quality drop tables).
I just wished more games would implement this structure as to make both parties and solo'ers happy.
not to mention they added some groups zones that could be soloed but it was a huge pain in the ass
i loved hellgate london and i wish it didn't tank... i had too much fun playing it
Yeah me too, but hey I'm still addicted to it.. only now I play single-player "Revival" version. Revival is sorta cool as it's a mod of the original HGL, they were able to mod single-player to get multi-player uniques in SP mode, also they increased the inventory and your cubicle side. Also, the vendors all sell legendary and unique items from time to time.
Just google Hellgate Revival on google, you'll find it
so think it's been decided that mmos shouldn't be catered to groupers/raiders
companies should cater to solo player and the player that just wants to play with his friends
To be honest most MMO's these days aren't a million miles away from just being multiplayer co-op games.
As you already have understood, most people dont WANT to group, and still you want that playstyle to be better rewarded...?
No thanks, I want to eat my dinner by myself when I am at the restaurant as well, not with a bunch of strangers up in my food. Same goes for when I play MMO's. Same price, same result but different approach.
"Most people don't want to group" Who has determined this you? Your post are insulting in nature and assuming. I have found that a lot of people enjoy grouping but they didn't enjoy not having an option not to if they did not want to. I will not say everyone felt this way but that has been my own experience. The reason if you would have read above I believe more incentives are needed to form groups is because of the additional time requirements to form them. This just encourages people to group.
Funnily enough, you are answering my "insulting" statement about that people actually don't want to group yourself; If people are'nt encouraged to group, they will not do it... Are you discussing with your self or with me...? I can't really figure out what you are doing here, since you are agreeing & discussing on both sides. So tell, what is your real problem...?
Thanks for your really weird and strange epic reply.
Your tears makes excellent polish for my armors! Now have a cookie
/bearhug
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
I totally agree that there should always be group based content in an MMO, because not everything should be able to be tackled by just one person. Group content should always exist for a bigger challenge and a better gameplay dynamic for those who chose to do it. Solo players dont think that group content shouldnt exist, as many of them will do group content just to break up the monotiny of doing the same thing over and over everyday.
What soloers do want is other paths of advancement, even some that dont focus on combat. This is where the modern MMO is lacking as developers focus on either solo friendly or group centric gameplay. MMOs have gone from being a virtual world where a player had many options for fun (deep crafting for the people who just want to advance through crafting, thick and mysterious lore for the singular player to work through and of course dungeons that challenge even the most seasoned group of players - pretty much a 'choose your own adventure' style of game) to a basic A to B fight and grind game with little emphasis on community and more on combat and gear grabbing.
And no matter what people say, you cannot blame Blizzard and WoW for what has happened. Blizzard made a game for people who didnt care to play the deeper MMOs that required time and effort. They made a game that was fun from the start, sort of a 'My First MMO' that allowed player to jump in and experience the basics of an MMO. They didnt ask other companies to stop being original or to copy their game from the code up. Blame the other companies who decided that numbers were more important than being original.
As for the few vocal soloers who want everything to be equal (such as raid equiv gear without raiding) ignore them. Should solo players have access to good gear; gear that is better than basic quest drops? Sure. Should that gear require more challenge than normal questing? Yeah. Should that gear be on par with raid quality gear? Nope. Would I mind running around in that gear versus Raid gear? No, I wouldnt. In fact I would be proud to for the fact that 'I' worked hard to get it, 'I' spent the time and effort for it. Would I envy the raider who has better gear than me? No, because I know that if I wanted that quality gear all I would have to do is commit myself to doing the work with other people, which is another option for me if I get tired of the whole solo thing.
And to the 'omg group!' fanatics, grouping mechanics are the same as they have been, with the same rewards for the same effort. Just because there were 1 or 2 games in the past that you played where it was nothing but grouping, doesnt mean the whole genre has been turned on its ear or that you have been forgotten.
Underline 1:
I do not disagree upon that MMO's should or could have group based content. What I do belive though, is that (repeating myself... again) an MMO need be solo friendly to have at least some success. I also truly belive that an MMO can be perfectly successful without any Group "only" content.
Underline 2 & 3:
The gear I spend equally much time soloing and whatsoever effort I put into it to get, should be on par with gear that "raiders" get. My playstyle should not be any less rewarding than some other. Different approach, equally challenging, same result. Sounds pretty much fair to me. Again I must ask why this is a problem, as all those who favor grouping says they do it for the fun/"socializing"/whatever, when it CLEARLY shines through its for the loot. I am also very curious "why" it has to be so that raiders should have better gear than soloers...
Now, please stop being a fascist by saying "ignore that don't agree with you". I could say the same; Ignore those who say that Raid gear should be better than what soloers could get. Does'nt make any sense either of those 2 comments.
Personally, I find it quite a paradox inside MMO world that the game developers are "encouraging" Group play, when it seem that people wouldnt have done it if it werent for that exact reason.
Now I could flip the coin of this debate by saying this:
There should be quest lines that are BETTER rewarded than what Raiding gives; These quest lines should demand the extreme out of the players skills, for frankly, most raiders truly suck when it comes to have skills on their toons. Thats why most of them raid, and not do any pvp, cause they get their asses whopped real bad all the time. REAL bad...
For what skills do you need other than be able to jump when told to then press 4 to utilize your skill? The most challenging part of raiding is for me, to bear up with all the idiots' elitist mentality & leet kid behavior. So don't come here talk bs about raiding being any more challenging than f.ex doing solo pvp. Thats utterly nonsense. Everyone can raid all conent, but only a few makes it to the top in pvp world. All you have to possess when you "raid", is time, while you need true skills when you pvp.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Likewise.
Reply too boring too read. Felt it was en eternal repeat of same old same old. Could'nt make it more than a few lines down, sorry.
Now shut the door after you.
/bearhug
Edit; I have actually changed my mind about who should get best gear, like I have changed view upon many topics before in my life, and certainly will. This is obviously not "allowed" in your narrow little word though, but I could care less about that.
Best gear should be rewarded to soloers. Simply put cause it requires most skill to survive alone. Voila, homogenization avoided, and plenty of height up to the ceiling too!
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
Attack the points, not the poster please.
/queue Thread Lock
Ahh yes, the classic "I can't rebut any of your points, so I'm going to attack the post and/or poster instead".
I'll take that as your graceless admission of defeat.
And, no.. I think I'll stay around. Last I checked, these still weren't your forums. So.. yeah... get over yourself.
Edit: Your added bit is redundant. Your "MMO Utopia" was already made pretty obvious through reading the rest of your posts.
"A MMO that's entirely soloable and where all the best gear is handed out to those who don't want to put forth the effort to obtain it; where those who are willing, even eager, to put forth more effort and coordination in a group effort are shown nothing more for it, because laziness and less effort should be more greatly rewarded".
I bet you just creamed your pants reading that, didn't you.
Needless to say... I vehemently disagree with your perspective on it and believe that a greater effort and challenge deserves greater rewards.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I do not know what world you are living in, but the most challenging parts of the MMO world is actually for those who solo.
To me, raiding only requires time and a good portion of patience. Nothing more. Not anything fancy about that, not anything even close to be something that should be looked as an "achievemnt of high deed". it is a simple game mechanic offered to people who are unable to solo their way to the top. If it wasnt there for those who havent got the skills, what should they do in the MMO? Cause they are aint for sure not enjoying the content as it looks for me. Only enjoy is that they get the loot.
Why this type of play should be more rewarding than one that is obviously needing more skills AND time, is beyond a mystery to me. Huh, handing out better reward to a playstyle that requires less brain than the other.... interesting actually. Like that is good for the environment...? Those players who are most disliked ingame, are in fact the group-fanatics, and still, MMO's encourages this. It is like applauding gangs mugging old women in the streets.
Edit:
I was honest when I said your reply were boring. Try say more with fewer words if you want my attention. I am a simple soul, quite used to get bashed here. Aka punchdrunk
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
Lol you are apparenlty the insecure person who has to insult other people for wanting to actually play with others in a MULTIPLAYER game lol. I love these kids that have the epeen mentality that is so prevalent with todays MMOs. Back in the day MMO gaming was better..not because of the games..but because this type of attitude was so less prevalent.
Lol you are apparenlty the insecure person who has to insult other people for wanting to actually play with others in a MULTIPLAYER game lol. I love these kids that have the epeen mentality that is so prevalent with todays MMOs. Back in the day MMO gaming was better..not because of the games..but because this type of attitude was so less prevalent.
So, the MMO's from the 'good old days' are better than those on marked today? All you need is better gfx in same old game & problem is fixed...?
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
This is getting pretty stupid now=)
But to those who want soloing to offer the best rewards, please cite an example from any MMO of a difficulty that rivals the hardest raids or group encounters in say, WOW since most people understand the complexity that they offer? If that complexity escapes you, please refer to any FAQ site and start reading the dictionary-like walk-throughs that people have written. If you say raiding is easy and people just sit around with their eyes closed, you obviously haven't raided, so your opinion is disqualified=)
Personally I'd LOVE if there were solo encounters that were actually hard, that couldn't be easily trivialized by bringing more people, picking a different class or gaining a few more levels. They just don't exist, nor do I expect developers to start creating balanced custom encounters for 1000s of class/spell/ability combinations. See you can't have one class blow through a boss solo, while making it impossible for another due to imbalances. That just doesn't fly.
Content designed for a group has always been more difficult due to many obvious factors. We're not talking a group blowing through greens while leveling up. Dungeons are harder and more complex. Its just the facts. When the day comes that soloing really is HARDER than grouping, it should be interesting, but that day has never come.
If being "fun" isn't enough of a reason, then what is the point?
When all/most of the content is geared and balanced towards being soloable, it tends to become trivial when faced by a group. Things that have no challenge aren't fun -- for normal people anyways.
Developers figured out how to scale content to group size a long time ago. Plus, players can set their own difficulty level in a thousand different ways. Pull more mobs, pull over level mobs. "The game isn't challenging enough" argument doesn't hold water. Wear lower level armor, use lower level weapons. You can set your own difficulty level.
The issue at the heart of the matter is bragging rights and e-peens. If solo players, i.e. anybody, can finish all the content without having to group then there won't be content that's so hard that only players in a huge guild will be able to finish it and brag about it. What's the point in bragging that your guild downed Thargobtorcronbad if a solo player can scale the instance or recruit npc group members and do it too.
*cough* solo pvp *cough*
Most challenging part of biggest MMO outthere; World of Warcraft.
@Underlined: Again, you are giving up examples that is about bad game mechanics. If you had read all about me, not that I expect that, you would know I do not like classes, at all.
Remove classes, and you would have a totally different game to offer the soloers. So, do not blame us soloers for wanting access to same gear, when it is hindered by bad game mechanics. You are locked in a class system, which narrows your view too much. Now try think about a system where you become what you do, not what you choose, and the possibilites are alot more.
Let me give you an example; Lets say you were having a free character developing system, maybe limited by a certain pts BUT being able to reset character to rebuild. Much as we do in real life. Forget and learn new skills.
Now you jump into an instance 1; your build works fine, you get the phat loot and so on. Then next instance 2; your characters skills aint good enough. Too bad too sad, right. Now you have the option to adapt or move on; start learning new stuff, or dont. Your choice. As it is now, raiding is nearly brainless. yep, it is. Even mouseclickers can faceroll any instance given they have the right gear. Pointless & un-challenging. I stand my ground there. Solo pvp will ALWAYS on ANY term be more challenging than whatsoever instance you are able to present me due to the simple fact that you are fighting vs the NPC's/mobs. Players will always give you the ultimate challenge.
The day you are not able to faceroll instances as a keybinder, then you might have my credit. Just might. Until then, its a lol when someone comes up in my face bragging about their 'raid skills'. Just lol...
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
If being "fun" isn't enough of a reason, then what is the point?
When all/most of the content is geared and balanced towards being soloable, it tends to become trivial when faced by a group. Things that have no challenge aren't fun -- for normal people anyways.
Developers figured out how to scale content to group size a long time ago. Plus, players can set their own difficulty level in a thousand different ways. Pull more mobs, pull over level mobs. "The game isn't challenging enough" argument doesn't hold water. Wear lower level armor, use lower level weapons. You can set your own difficulty level.
The issue at the heart of the matter is bragging rights and e-peens. If solo players, i.e. anybody, can finish all the content without having to group then there won't be content that's so hard that only players in a huge guild will be able to finish it and brag about it. What's the point in bragging that your guild downed Thargobtorcronbad if a solo player can scale the instance or recruit npc group members and do it too.
Whats the point of bragging in the first place...?
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
A few years back (2005 I think) I was in a hardcore raid guild in EQ2, we raided nightly from 6-7pm until 1-2am. At that point in time I would have agreed then that raiders should have the best. Now however as I am a little older and life a lot busier I am unable to raid like that and have changed my opinion to soloer's need love too if the developers wish to get their money. I am simply unable to raid like I used to but have not lost my love for mmorpg's. Maybe raiders could have a little better stuff, but just barely.
EQ2 had a set of legacy quests (i think thats what they were called) that gave you a lot of the must have items in game, now for some parts of those quests you needed a group but a large part of each very lengthy quest chain was soloable. Maybe this is an approach devs could keep in mind.
The point is I want to be able to have some of the games better gear and I pay the same money every month that everyone else does, so should I be punished because I have a busy life? Jobs, wives, kids and other things take priority over sitting in front of my computer 10 hours a day, however I am still able to play 3 or 4 nights a week for a couple hours a night, do I not deserve to have nice gear in my chosen game? If the mmo company wants my money I had better be able too.
Just my thoughts as an older gamer.
And this brings up a common problem with most raid based MMO's, raids are becoming easier to cater for the mass market. I for one believe most raid content should have better rewards than solo play, but I also think that raid content in a majority of games should be considerably more difficult than they are currently.