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Group-lovers: the REAL freaks in the MMO world...?
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MMOs have evolved beyond that, grouping is no longer the interest of the majority of players. Try again.
What the hell evolved? That from an Eve player? Just because MMO´s have turned mass market doesn´t mean the real mmo players don´t care. Try you again. To hell with all that theme park shit. If you want to swim with the mindless easy to please masses thats your thing. Don´t tell the real mmo players what they should like.
Real MMO players don't care? Well, and you are supposed to be one of them...? LOL. You can't even see that MMO's have changed. Thank you for trying. It is not even worth try telling you what have changed, since its obvious that part is beyond your imagination.
I can say it as simple as this; MMO's have changed JUST because the real MMO players did care. MMO's are better than ever, and they are getting better each day. I would'nt dream of playing those MMO's I played 10 years ago. Here you go whining about how good those days were, and still, you dont even play them lame MMO's yourself. Hah. Quite ironic. Again, you are just some noone who come here bashing innocent MMO gamers for a reason you are to be blamed for yourself.
There are few, probably none beside your mom, who would care about what you think, when it comes to MMO's.
Dear god, you are a perfect example why I am enjoying soloing so much.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
MMOs have evolved beyond that, grouping is no longer the interest of the majority of players. Try again.
What the hell evolved? That from an Eve player? Just because MMO´s have turned mass market doesn´t mean the real mmo players don´t care. Try you again. To hell with all that theme park shit. If you want to swim with the mindless easy to please masses thats your thing. Don´t tell the real mmo players what they should like.
What is the definition of a real MMO player? Oh thats right, someone who likes to group.
WoW patch 3.3 cross server LFG .. tons of players grouping. It appears people may not hate it so much after all as many here are claiming.
We don’t have enough soloers in this thread for the discussion, which may indicate that they do not have the overwhelming support that they think they have.
I wanted to give a couple of examples where MMO’s have tried something new since WoW. AoC siege system, Vanguard diplomacy, Lotro skirmishes, WAR’s tome. So I do not think its been all bad, just too few and far between. Also how can we expect people to group when good tools for grouping are not taken up by other MMO’s? The CoH and AoC buddy system is a prime example, where else can you adjust your level to fit the group you are in?
WoW has a new open grouping system (edit - cross server LFG having read last post), not sure how well it works, but because WoW is doing it we may see it being copied everywhere.
I have been waiting for such a reply as this. As I have previously said, in either this thread or maybe it was some other, is that users in this forum is far from representing the "average" MMO gamer. If you take the average gamer of World of Warcraft, you think they are here? I do not mean to offend anyone when I say this, cause I play WoW the exact same way myself; they are powergamers. In my belief, 90% or more MMO players are in that category. They have better things to do than have endless discussions with arch-leets, lore-trolls & freaked-out group fanatics. Probably us soloers too.
Still I feel we are plenty here supporting the solo playstyle. In fact heres more than I would dare hope for when I started this thread. Which means I am still in "lead". Ha! (Oh yeah, I can feel your anger & frustration all the way here. /pat /pat)
Now, what have these group-fanatic freaks left other than that they have "outnumbered" us soloers in this thread (gee, have a cookie)? Your arguements are meaningless; all you come up with is selfish demands catering your egocentric playstyle. You keep rambling on with that MMO's need better group mechanics, but when you are asked WHICH ones, you have nothing to come up with. You "parry" by going personal or "answer" that question with a provocative question back.
To sum this up: Does this mean you have "won" this thread?
NO.
This only means that you group-fanatcis are just, well, more fanatic about this. You really think that just because some who has kept the mouth shut for 10 years, isnt opening it now, they have resigned...?? LoL. In your dreams. When thread was started, we barely heard nothing from you, now it seems theres an infestation of hysterical group-fanatics here. And none of you comes up with more than the same, over and over again.Your whine have become a gnall in our ears. It is obiously more important for you to have access to better gear than soloer other than have fun in your MMO's. If you say something else, it would be a lie considering all your whine here about MMO's have gone down & under. This shows that you havent got any fun anymore in your MMO's, you only play them for the loot so you can brag about it. Which in turn gives you just about enough reason to stay in your MMO's. Talk about S&M relationship to a game...
I dont think we hit the bottom with this "we won this thread since we are more" either. Will you get even lower? Probably. Why I am not surprised...?
Again I ask the same question hoping for a real answer; can some of you tell me what group mechanics MMO's are in so desperate need of? You keep saying MMO's need this over and over and over and over again. Still absolutely NONE of you rocket-scientists are able to come up with 1 single suggestion. We have one meager attempt here from you Scot, but they are more examples from how other MMO's tries to handle PvP. A few of them is about grouping though, but still, is that the best you can give us?
Well, I have a suggetion about that topic; if you dont have a solution, then dont say its a problem. Obviously these problems are more like a problem in your brains, since the MMO world is more healthy and appealing than ever before.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
Grouping <--- X ---> Selfish & egocentric playstyle
=
Solo friendly MMO's
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
You have to understand that "Solo players" doesn't mean "anti-social players". Most, if not all, "solo players" do join groups and don't mind other people's company and like playing games with other people. Solo players just don't want to deal with the hassle that comes with grouping in most games so the solo players ask for more solo friendly gameplay elements. WoW's new cross server grouping system has removed all that hassle. So those solo players are able to just que up and pop into an instance and run with some other people and get the quest done and que up for another.
We don't hate people or hate socializing or even hate grouping, solo players hate the hassle. So WoW's changes and people grouping more now proves that people hated the hassle, not that people hated grouping.
The whole crux of the forced grouping crowd's argument is that almost all MMOs cater to solo players. Are you now suggesting that an entire world wide mutli-billion dollar industry caters to the smaller portion of their audience, ignoring the larger one?
I don't know about others, but the reason I haven't replied much here is because many of the views presented have made it clear that the individuals believe what they want to with complete disregard for fact, data and history.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
The whole crux of the forced grouping crowd's argument is that almost all MMOs cater to solo players. Are you now suggesting that an entire world wide mutli-billion dollar industry caters to the smaller portion of their audience, ignoring the larger one?
I don't know about others, but the reason I haven't replied much here is because many of the views presented have made it clear that the individuals believe what they want to with complete disregard for fact, data and history.
There isn't any way to provide solid numbers to back up any claims about the numbers of players that like solo games, versus games that encouraging groups.
But the logical conclusion would seem to be that the solo players have lots of games, including the biggest one, WoW. So they aren't here discussing MMORPG design elements they would like to see in future games, they are just playing WoW, or another solo friendly MMORPG.
There hasn't been a good game that encourages grouping since DAoC, and it is dated, AND like a lot of games not the same since the expansions were added.
So, you would think that you would see more people that like grouping discussing that on the forum, since there are less games for them to play.
Says the man that doesn't want groupers to have a game they enjoy playing.
You do see the irony there right?
Slow you down from what? Some meaningless peice of gear? That is the whole problem too many people are worried about the infamous end or whatever it is that you are seeking. Making large groups ??? Feel powerful??? That is not why I want to play games I want to socially interact with people while doing something challenging. Soloing in MMOs is the opposite of challenging not to mention you may as well play a console game at that point. In L2 soloing was cake as the only way you were going to die is if you got ganked. Soloing in WoW is the easiest thing in the world as you can solo your way to 80 without ever getting below 50% health!!! Soloing BGs is easy as well hell back in the day it was advantageous to just drop the group and play by yourself.
And this is the big disconnect between solo players and groupers.
I can't wait on a group! I don't have time for that because I have to....
You have to what? Mindlessly grind quests and read about how Farmer Joe lost his boots in the scary swamp and wants you to get them back for him? Fascinating! Mindlessly farm mobs?
I just dont' get how clicking 1,2,3,4 over and over by yourself is such a big "challenge".
it's mindnumbingly boring to me.
if I don't group, then I'm missing clicking 1,2,3,4 over and over by myself. No big loss for me.
It's not like there is some seriously intelligent Mob A.I. or anything when you solo and MMORPG. It's just dps and hit points versus dps and hit points when you solo. How long is that going to keep me entertained? About 5 minutes.
Groups change it up so that you are interacting with other players, and your actions depend on their actions. It randomizes the combat so it's not the same over and over.
Mobs are working on a computer script. it's the same over and over. People are not on a computer script, you never know what they are going to do. That's pretty much the difference for me.
But some people don't see the difference I guess. I guess for them the Mobs are doing all sorts of things I just can't see.
You have to understand that "Solo players" doesn't mean "anti-social players". Most, if not all, "solo players" do join groups and don't mind other people's company and like playing games with other people. Solo players just don't want to deal with the hassle that comes with grouping in most games so the solo players ask for more solo friendly gameplay elements. WoW's new cross server grouping system has removed all that hassle. So those solo players are able to just que up and pop into an instance and run with some other people and get the quest done and que up for another.
We don't hate people or hate socializing or even hate grouping, solo players hate the hassle. So WoW's changes and people grouping more now proves that people hated the hassle, not that people hated grouping.
Good point. Making it easier to find groups is an improvement. But that isnt the only reason people solo at least not the only reason I solo. I group when there are people around I want to group with but if a game forces grouping I do not play the game. I refuse a lot of group invitations from people i do not knowbut offer help and accept offers, sometimes, to kill a certain mob or whatever . For me most friends are made ingame by accident not something im looking for.
You have to understand that "Solo players" doesn't mean "anti-social players". Most, if not all, "solo players" do join groups and don't mind other people's company and like playing games with other people. Solo players just don't want to deal with the hassle that comes with grouping in most games so the solo players ask for more solo friendly gameplay elements. WoW's new cross server grouping system has removed all that hassle. So those solo players are able to just que up and pop into an instance and run with some other people and get the quest done and que up for another.
We don't hate people or hate socializing or even hate grouping, solo players hate the hassle. So WoW's changes and people grouping more now proves that people hated the hassle, not that people hated grouping.
Good point. Making it easier to find groups is an improvement. But that isnt the only reason people solo at least not the only reason I solo. I group when there are people around I want to group with but if a game forces grouping I do not play the game. I refuse a lot of group invitations from people i do not knowbut offer help and accept offers, sometimes, to kill a certain mob or whatever . For me most friends are made ingame by accident not something im looking for.
I'm not looking for friends, I'm looking for game mechanics.
Like if I play Call of Duty online. I don't make friends on that game, I just log on and bang! i'm on a team. Our team has to kill their team. The people I"m playing with dont' become friends, I dont' have time to type, I'm to busy shooting. The other team doesn't become friends, I can't talk to them.
It's a game that is based on teams.
I'm playing MMORPGs the same way. I like co-op play because of the game mechanics. Sure, chatting with nice people is fine too, but first I'm looking for the game play.
You don't have to be friendly in my group, you have to help me kill mobs by cooperating with me, and vice a versa.
THAT is the game play I'm looking for.
Playing a solo friendly MMORPG is like playing the single player version of Call of Duty. It's good for learnign the GUI and getting familiar with the terrain. After that, you get bored with the Computer A.I. and you're ready to take on other players.
In an MMORPG, you get bored with the Mob A.I. and you are ready to coop with real players, who make the game more random, requiring more varied responses from you, which is fun.
I don't know the healer is going to accidently aggro a Mob, and I'll have to pull the mob off of him. That's random, and makes the game fun.
If I'm playing solo, nothing is random. It's just my DPS and hits versus the Mob DPS and hits. Sure, the very first time I kill a new Mob it might do something different like CC or BAF, but after one time, that's it. It does the same thing everytime.
How many times do I want to do taht with no variation? About two. Two times, and I'm bored. I know exactly what this mob will do, every time.
MMOs have evolved beyond that, grouping is no longer the interest of the majority of players. Try again.
What the hell evolved? That from an Eve player? Just because MMO´s have turned mass market doesn´t mean the real mmo players don´t care. Try you again. To hell with all that theme park shit. If you want to swim with the mindless easy to please masses thats your thing. Don´t tell the real mmo players what they should like.
Because we all know you're the one who gets to define what a "real MMO player" is.
It's this kind of self-involved, egotistical bullshit that lots of us really object to. People who think that they get to define how MMOs work, how they're played and what players have to do to be "legitimate". Small hint for you, you're wrong.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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Hope: None
I find it rather touching that you group-fanatics care so much about how we play our MMO's. If we just had cared as much how you play your MMO's... Like that will ever happen since we have to defend us against lame accusations from group-fanatics as well as convince game developers to listen to us. Why do you even bother how we play our MMO's in the first place? Why not rather spend all your efforts in trying to make your own gaming experience better, instead of harassing our play style? Are you really that frustrated?
You whine about our playstyle, epsecially you Ihmotepp. How come our playstyle is so damn important for you in the first place?
We soloers aint trying to take anything away from you group-fanatics, we are only trying to make our own gameplay better. This should be quite trivial understanding for normal folks, but this seems to conflict with you group-fanatics; happy soloers obviously makes the group-fanatics real real sad & mad.
Now about those statistics whether soloers are the major group or the group-fanatics;
I have previously said that the MMO's always ask you why you leave their game when cancelling subscription. I really do think those feedbacks give them a clue what the gamers wants and why they leave. How come else this discussion have been barely present during last 10 years. It is only recently I have seen the escalation of this topic. MMO's are getting solo friendly rapidly, and now this "forced-grouping vs soloers" is suddenly a hot topic.
Well, now you group-fanatics have to glean your crop and face the result of your playstyle.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
Slow you down from what? Some meaningless peice of gear? That is the whole problem too many people are worried about the infamous end or whatever it is that you are seeking. Making large groups ??? Feel powerful??? That is not why I want to play games I want to socially interact with people while doing something challenging. Soloing in MMOs is the opposite of challenging not to mention you may as well play a console game at that point. In L2 soloing was cake as the only way you were going to die is if you got ganked. Soloing in WoW is the easiest thing in the world as you can solo your way to 80 without ever getting below 50% health!!! Soloing BGs is easy as well hell back in the day it was advantageous to just drop the group and play by yourself.
And this is the big disconnect between solo players and groupers.
I can't wait on a group! I don't have time for that because I have to....
You have to what? Mindlessly grind quests and read about how Farmer Joe lost his boots in the scary swamp and wants you to get them back for him? Fascinating! Mindlessly farm mobs?
I just dont' get how clicking 1,2,3,4 over and over by yourself is such a big "challenge".
it's mindnumbingly boring to me.
if I don't group, then I'm missing clicking 1,2,3,4 over and over by myself. No big loss for me.
It's not like there is some seriously intelligent Mob A.I. or anything when you solo and MMORPG. It's just dps and hit points versus dps and hit points when you solo. How long is that going to keep me entertained? About 5 minutes.
Groups change it up so that you are interacting with other players, and your actions depend on their actions. It randomizes the combat so it's not the same over and over.
Mobs are working on a computer script. it's the same over and over. People are not on a computer script, you never know what they are going to do. That's pretty much the difference for me.
But some people don't see the difference I guess. I guess for them the Mobs are doing all sorts of things I just can't see.
Who are you discussing with...? Are you on a trip here since you seem to know how other MMO players gaming experience is...?
Or are you trying to say that this is how it works for you and that automatically is the same for everyone else...? Not far back in this thread you were pointing out for me with high morale that everyone has different flavor. Now, scroll back read it again for yourself.
Get real girl.
Epic fail.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
You have to understand that "Solo players" doesn't mean "anti-social players". Most, if not all, "solo players" do join groups and don't mind other people's company and like playing games with other people. Solo players just don't want to deal with the hassle that comes with grouping in most games so the solo players ask for more solo friendly gameplay elements. WoW's new cross server grouping system has removed all that hassle. So those solo players are able to just que up and pop into an instance and run with some other people and get the quest done and que up for another.
We don't hate people or hate socializing or even hate grouping, solo players hate the hassle. So WoW's changes and people grouping more now proves that people hated the hassle, not that people hated grouping.
Good point. Making it easier to find groups is an improvement. But that isnt the only reason people solo at least not the only reason I solo. I group when there are people around I want to group with but if a game forces grouping I do not play the game. I refuse a lot of group invitations from people i do not knowbut offer help and accept offers, sometimes, to kill a certain mob or whatever . For me most friends are made ingame by accident not something im looking for.
I'm not looking for friends, I'm looking for game mechanics.
Like if I play Call of Duty online. I don't make friends on that game, I just log on and bang! i'm on a team. Our team has to kill their team. The people I"m playing with dont' become friends, I dont' have time to type, I'm to busy shooting. The other team doesn't become friends, I can't talk to them.
It's a game that is based on teams.
I'm playing MMORPGs the same way. I like co-op play because of the game mechanics. Sure, chatting with nice people is fine too, but first I'm looking for the game play.
You don't have to be friendly in my group, you have to help me kill mobs by cooperating with me, and vice a versa.
THAT is the game play I'm looking for.
Playing a solo friendly MMORPG is like playing the single player version of Call of Duty. It's good for learnign the GUI and getting familiar with the terrain. After that, you get bored with the Computer A.I. and you're ready to take on other players.
In an MMORPG, you get bored with the Mob A.I. and you are ready to coop with real players, who make the game more random, requiring more varied responses from you, which is fun.
I don't know the healer is going to accidently aggro a Mob, and I'll have to pull the mob off of him. That's random, and makes the game fun.
If I'm playing solo, nothing is random. It's just my DPS and hits versus the Mob DPS and hits. Sure, the very first time I kill a new Mob it might do something different like CC or BAF, but after one time, that's it. It does the same thing everytime.
How many times do I want to do taht with no variation? About two. Two times, and I'm bored. I know exactly what this mob will do, every time.
I understand. Perhaps online shooters is the way for you to go. I do not see mmorpg's regressing to yesterdays gameplay. As has been said, there is a reason why the top games in this genre offer the ability to solo most of the content. They may not be the best games but they are the ones making the money and in the end that is what developers care about. I play games in my free time and like other free time activities I choose who to spend the time with. Like a lot of people, some of the worst game experiences ive had has been due to grouping with people who I wouldnt even say hello to in the real world so grouping with them for the sake of getting something done ingame is not even a consideration for me.
What about the good people?
All of the best times I have had in an MMO have been group activities. Whether it's a set group with friends, a lucky good PUG with strangers (one dungeon run in WoW with a PUG was the very best few hours in an MMO for me), or team PvP with strangers in a battleground.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
You have to understand that "Solo players" doesn't mean "anti-social players". Most, if not all, "solo players" do join groups and don't mind other people's company and like playing games with other people. Solo players just don't want to deal with the hassle that comes with grouping in most games so the solo players ask for more solo friendly gameplay elements. WoW's new cross server grouping system has removed all that hassle. So those solo players are able to just que up and pop into an instance and run with some other people and get the quest done and que up for another.
We don't hate people or hate socializing or even hate grouping, solo players hate the hassle. So WoW's changes and people grouping more now proves that people hated the hassle, not that people hated grouping.
Good point. Making it easier to find groups is an improvement. But that isnt the only reason people solo at least not the only reason I solo. I group when there are people around I want to group with but if a game forces grouping I do not play the game. I refuse a lot of group invitations from people i do not knowbut offer help and accept offers, sometimes, to kill a certain mob or whatever . For me most friends are made ingame by accident not something im looking for.
I'm not looking for friends, I'm looking for game mechanics.
Like if I play Call of Duty online. I don't make friends on that game, I just log on and bang! i'm on a team. Our team has to kill their team. The people I"m playing with dont' become friends, I dont' have time to type, I'm to busy shooting. The other team doesn't become friends, I can't talk to them.
It's a game that is based on teams.
I'm playing MMORPGs the same way. I like co-op play because of the game mechanics. Sure, chatting with nice people is fine too, but first I'm looking for the game play.
You don't have to be friendly in my group, you have to help me kill mobs by cooperating with me, and vice a versa.
THAT is the game play I'm looking for.
Playing a solo friendly MMORPG is like playing the single player version of Call of Duty. It's good for learnign the GUI and getting familiar with the terrain. After that, you get bored with the Computer A.I. and you're ready to take on other players.
In an MMORPG, you get bored with the Mob A.I. and you are ready to coop with real players, who make the game more random, requiring more varied responses from you, which is fun.
I don't know the healer is going to accidently aggro a Mob, and I'll have to pull the mob off of him. That's random, and makes the game fun.
If I'm playing solo, nothing is random. It's just my DPS and hits versus the Mob DPS and hits. Sure, the very first time I kill a new Mob it might do something different like CC or BAF, but after one time, that's it. It does the same thing everytime.
How many times do I want to do taht with no variation? About two. Two times, and I'm bored. I know exactly what this mob will do, every time.
I understand. Perhaps online shooters is the way for you to go. I do not see mmorpg's regressing to yesterdays gameplay. As has been said, there is a reason why the top games in this genre offer the ability to solo most of the content. They may not be the best games but they are the ones making the money and in the end that is what developers care about. I play games in my free time and like other free time activities I choose who to spend the time with. Like a lot of people, some of the worst game experiences ive had has been due to grouping with people who I wouldnt even say hello to in the real world so grouping with them for the sake of getting something done ingame is not even a consideration for me.
I like shooters, and play them from time to time.
I like single player games, and sometimes play those.
I also like to play good MMORPGs.
Why would I want to play one type of game only?
Because I like fun games. What other reason could there be?
Don't you like fun games?
I don't mind if you play games you think are fun.
Why would you be upset if I play games I think are fun?
Slow you down from what? Some meaningless peice of gear? That is the whole problem too many people are worried about the infamous end or whatever it is that you are seeking. Making large groups ??? Feel powerful??? That is not why I want to play games I want to socially interact with people while doing something challenging. Soloing in MMOs is the opposite of challenging not to mention you may as well play a console game at that point. In L2 soloing was cake as the only way you were going to die is if you got ganked. Soloing in WoW is the easiest thing in the world as you can solo your way to 80 without ever getting below 50% health!!! Soloing BGs is easy as well hell back in the day it was advantageous to just drop the group and play by yourself.
And this is the big disconnect between solo players and groupers.
I can't wait on a group! I don't have time for that because I have to....
You have to what? Mindlessly grind quests and read about how Farmer Joe lost his boots in the scary swamp and wants you to get them back for him? Fascinating! Mindlessly farm mobs?
I just dont' get how clicking 1,2,3,4 over and over by yourself is such a big "challenge".
it's mindnumbingly boring to me.
if I don't group, then I'm missing clicking 1,2,3,4 over and over by myself. No big loss for me.
It's not like there is some seriously intelligent Mob A.I. or anything when you solo and MMORPG. It's just dps and hit points versus dps and hit points when you solo. How long is that going to keep me entertained? About 5 minutes.
Groups change it up so that you are interacting with other players, and your actions depend on their actions. It randomizes the combat so it's not the same over and over.
Mobs are working on a computer script. it's the same over and over. People are not on a computer script, you never know what they are going to do. That's pretty much the difference for me.
But some people don't see the difference I guess. I guess for them the Mobs are doing all sorts of things I just can't see.
Who are you discussing with...? Are you on a trip here since you seem to know how other MMO players gaming experience is...?
Or are you trying to say that this is how it works for you and that automatically is the same for everyone else...? Not far back in this thread you were pointing out for me with high morale that everyone has different flavor. Now, scroll back read it again for yourself.
Get real girl.
Epic fail.
Stop flirting with me.
You're not my type.
I'm a lesbian in a guys body.
What about the good people?
All of the best times I have had in an MMO have been group activities. Whether it's a set group with friends, a lucky good PUG with strangers (one dungeon run in WoW with a PUG was the very best few hours in an MMO for me), or team PvP with strangers in a battleground.
Don't you consider Soloers as 'good'? Sorry if I misunderstand anything here. I would rather say that the soloers ARE the "good" ones in the MMO world, quite opposite to the group-fanatics.
Soloers aint against Group-activities, it is for many, a hazzle which we would rather not do. Many other also have a time problem, and real life side activities when playing MMO's. Not all are spoiled 16 year old brats who are being cuddled with by their parents. This exact group do think the MMO world spins around them. Trying to explain them that there are 5 billion other people on this earth with demands & needs, is quite pointless.
I do group stuff with real life friends & sons, but doing them with strangers aint appealing at all. Right now I am duo-ing in LOTRO with an old friend of mine (hes on trial), showing him the land & game, mostly having a good time visiting places we used to be playing back in AD&D the pen & paper RPG.
You have sides of the MMO's that you like your way, I play the MMO's different. MMO's are changing because the masses want the MMO's different than back in the good old days. There will be niche games for the group-fanatics, of course. Do not expect them to be mainstream & super-popular though. Would be quite naive.
I belive that MMO's will be closer to FPS in a few years than to the first MMO's that came on marked 10 years ago. More instant action, more instant gratification. Fast in & fast out, tons of fun.
Look at the FPS games; there are tons of guilds withim them. People who get to know eachother, they play the FPS' together to be a mightier force. I find tha quite understandable, even though they play a FPS game. MMO's has alot to learn from single RPG's, but truly, they have lots to learn, if not even more, from the FPS games too when it comes to fast paced casual action.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!