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One of the most level-based MMO's out there. Just a warning.
Angelof2070
Member Posts: 224
THIS IS NOT A BASH THREAD.
THIS IS NOT A NEGATIVE THREAD.
THIS IS ONLY AN INFORMATIVE THREAD,
TO DISPEL RUMORS THAT DF,
in THIS ONE REGARD,
IS DIFFERENT FROM OTHER MMORPG's: IT'S NOT.
Darkfall's biggest claim pre-beta was that it was going to be more based on PLAYER SKILL than any other game. Spouting FPS style magic and archery. Sadly, this is opposite of true. Darkfall is perhaps one of the MOST level-based MMO's out there.
What do I mean by level-based?
In WoW, a level 60 can fight a level 30, and the level 30 cannot win.
In DAoC, a lvl 40 will one-hit a level 20, and the level 20 CANNOT even do a single damage to the 40.
In EQ2, a high level wins hands-down against a low level.
In all level based, MMO's this is relatively true. Most of the time, the scales are tipped so drastically that anymore than a 5 level difference, and the higher level wins no matter what- save going LINKDEAD or AFK for 20 minutes.
In Darkfall, there is no difference. In fact, it's even worse.
In Darkfall, there are no levels. But there are skill levels.
These skill levels play a huge role. Also, the higher your skills, the higher your stats have also raised.
In Combat, there are only a set amount of skills that are actually in use. A weapon skill, defense, archery, and some stats. Once a weapon skill reaches [x] you unlock other weapon skills (Swords at 75, and you can unlock ability that gives +Sword Damage. Raise that skill, and you do more damage.)
The difference between a level based MMO like WoW/EQ and Darkfall? Here is the difference:
MMO: LeveL = LeveL
Vauge Darkfall Example: LeveL = LeveL of Weapon Skill + LeveL of STR + Level of Archer / 3
That's a bad example to find out the "level" of Darkfall, but you understand what I am saying. Levels are levels, and having 100 skills only makes a small difference in the power of characters in MMO's.
In UO, a 7xGM would be max level, completely destroying a newbie who has 1-50 in their skills. The newbie has no chance.
In Level-Based MMO, a max level would 1-hit the newbie. The newbie has no chance.
In Darkfall, characters with 60-100 skill 3-hit the newbie. The newbie has no chance.
Here is proof in DARKFALL that the game is entirely level-based until max level:
Level 70ish skilled character vs Level 1-30 skilled newbie.
Level 70: 3 hits to kill newbie.
Newbie: 20 hits to kill Level 70, if the Level 70 has the exact same hit points and never gained any AND the level 70 doesn't heal in ANY way.
The level 70 could suck so bad that he gets hit 5 times per time he hits. The result? The newbie is dead, far before Level 70.
Player skill doesn't matter unless it's max level. To tip the scales even more, the Level 70 has more access to equipment, high-end weapons that do double the damage, healing potions, healing spells, and SIGNIFICANTLY more hitpoints, stamina, and mana.
Proof it is MORE level-based than other PvP MMO's:
In WoW, WAR, DAoC, and EQ2- PvP is restricted to be within a level range. This level range is often in 10, but expected to be in the 5 range. WoW 10-19, DAoC 20-24, EQ2 5 range, WAR 1-11.
This brings more balance. Although a low level will SURELY die by the max level in ALL of these games and often is dead in 1-3 hits and unable to even scratch top-level, most players don't play until mid-range. DAoC 22-24 mostly 24, WoW 15-19, WAR everyone is boosted to lvl 11, EQ2 players are ALWAYS in a set level range.
In DF, anyone can attack anyone. This means that the balance that lets players have fair (possible) fights is gone. This means that for the newbie, unless fighting other newbies (which is often NOT the case) the newbie is going to be forced to run anytime any other character attacks them. Also, the newbie won't get away, as they have less stamina, no mount, and die in 3 hits.
Thus DF is more based on CHARACTER LEVEL than any other MMORPG. Other MMORPG's require more PLAYER SKILL, as in WoW a level 15 has a chance of beating a lvl 19. In DAoC a 23 has a chance to beat a 24. In EQ2, you CAN beat a player 5 levels higher than you.
1) This does NOT include max level. Once all players reach max level in ANY MMO, the entire game becomes balanced where PLAYER SKILL (and gear) matter the most, AND LEVEL IS IRRELEVANT!
Comments
your points are valid but i think some might argue that this is a good thing
I think most people that play this game already know this going in but if they don't now they do:)
I really wish I knew, lol.
The game was SO fun at release. I only quit bc of [other] issues, and I just now returned to find out the game isn't the same in this regard
It sucks to buy a game solely just to PvP, and find out you have to work for a month before you can even play the game.
I understand from where you are coming, but show me a MMORPG where you don't need to swallow that awful pill of daily grind.
Skill progression is much faster now, however from my personal point of view ( a person who have hardly any time to play ) it still is slow.
What can I advice you:
1. Take some available quests: darkfallinfo.wetpaint.com/page/Darkfall+Quests. Some of them have nice rewards.
2. Try to focus a bit on skills: go and kill goblins / kobolds / trolls / orcs / akathars / centuars etc whatever you can handle. Use bow and melee weapon or with spells and melee or whatever combination you want to level up. You will notice faster progression.
From what I have heard yesterday from a fellow clan member you need around 24 hours of strict melee fighting to reach the max level in it. Some people see it as acceptable, I don't, especially in a game where pvp have such a huge influence on all other content.
The grind is one of the main reasons why I may swap to Mortal Online if it will deliver, right now that game is much bigger mess then DF was in early beta. However if you have access to MO beta you can definitely appreciate much faster progression, meaningful stats ( STR, AGI, INT etc ) and faster resources gathering, the game design direction. What I can't stand is place holder pve ( I doubt they will ever make it as good as Darkfall's ), placeholders, placeholders...in general the early stage of development.
Wrong. DF is a skill base game. Not a lvl base game. Yeah, gaining skills can take the same speed as maxing lvl in wow, but lvl are not skills.
If you are a newb in wow, you cant equip the highest pvp gear or the highest pve gear. Some items, you need like lvl 80 to equip it. If you are lvl 1, you cant. Ummm... if you are lvl 1, you cant enter a dungeon that require you to be lvl 50 for example. There are some instance you cant enter. Yeah, there is a range lvl for pvp like if you are lvl 20, only lvl 20 to 30 can kill you, a proof to define wow as a lvl base game. And the worst part, you need to be lvl 40 to ride a mount.
Darkfall. in your 1st day, when you didnt learn any skill, if you are in a powerful clan, they can give you the best items in the game. You can equip them without any problem and use them. There is no instance so you can go anywhere you want. You can use any item in the game, you can get kill by anyone or get killed by anyone. Darkfall dont share any common stuff as a lvl base game. You can also ride any mount including the battle horn.
the only stuff that DF have in common with lvl base mmorpg is on the part of learning skills from npc's. Like you mentioned, you need 25 sword skill for example to buy sword mastery so you can strike harder. Nothing else describe DF as a lvl base game.
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What you miss here is that no one will be that suicidal to use the best gear with low skill character, the risk of losing them is almost 100 %. It is much better then a typical level based solution, but it still hugely depends on character progression aka GRIND.
What you miss here is that no one will be that suicidal to use the best gear with low skill character, the risk of losing them is almost 100 %. It is much better then a typical level based solution, but it still hugely depends on character progression aka GRIND.
I dont care. I just wanted him to understand that DF is not a lvl base game. it might be a grindy game, but not a lvl base game. Dont mix it up. ITs like calling streetfighter 4 a lvl base game because i have to grind the story mode to unlock the 8 remaining characters.
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I think you have a valid point but aren't expressing it correctly.
You should say there the game is XP based and the player that has more XP into a combat will win over the player that has gained less and XP but may have more skills.
I do have a question for you though:
Can 10 level 20 players bring down 1-2 level level 70ish player?
My biggest problem with pvp in MMO's in general is that XP = god mode over newer players. I feel that a much larger group of newer players should win over a lot smaller group of players that have a lot more XP (providing skill at playing the game is some what equal). But I haven't seen a game that works in a way that allows lower level players to even scratch higher level players.
It depend on what type of newb you are talking about Today, being a newb in DF, you can raise your skills a lot faster. So few newb's can take down an end game player, possibly 4 because in DF, if someone die, you can raise him back to life. Anyone can do that, but you have to do it before the end game player finish him off, but if he do finish him off, you and your newb teamates can slash him none stop on the back and he might die for that mistake. Also, 4 vs 1, you have more chance to hit the end game player on his back and it double the damage while you guys will get hit on front only unless you talk about newb's that lack of player skills and team work.
In DF, no one is god over an other. He is just more powerful.
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It depend on what type of newb you are talking about Today, being a newb in DF, you can raise your skills a lot faster. So few newb's can take down an end game player, possibly 4 because in DF, if someone die, you can raise him back to life. Anyone can do that, but you have to do it before the end game player finish him off, but if he do finish him off, you and your newb teamates can slash him none stop on the back and he might die for that mistake. Also, 4 vs 1, you have more chance to hit the end game player on his back and it double the damage while you guys will get hit on front only unless you talk about newb's that lack of player skills and team work.
In DF, no one is god over an other. He is just more powerful.
That IS good to hear.
Except, dear OP, for the fact that your numbers are incorrect and have been pulled out of your anus in a rush.
Honestly, I and I'm sure many others would not be playing this game if a level 1 had an equal chance to destroy someone who has spent a ton of time training their skills. That is ridiculous. While this game does have FPS-style gameplay, it is NOT an FPS game... you must still have the RPG element to it.
So, all-in-all I am very glad that it takes come skilling up in order to kill people in PVP. There is ALWAYS ALWAYS chance for equal PVP, i mean you can attack anyone, right? So go PVP some other newbies. If you're a human, go to the orc starting area and look for some equal PVP. The thing I love that this game does is that you have no idea if someone is a high skill level or not. You can only tell by their armor, and by all means they can trick you buy wearing low level stuff. It adds excitement to the game.
-Computer specs no one cares about: check.
-MMOs played no one cares about: check.
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-Narcissism: check.
I just have to say that these claims are completely Bologne.
Darkfall is a skill based game in a large open world. In all those games he listed a lvl 1 cannot fight with a lvl 80. They cannot group, they cannot compete and cannot interact in the same zones.
Darkfall is the opposite. All players whethere skilled up or not can contribute to every aspect of this game. They can do just as much damage with a Ship Cannon as any other player. They can hurt just as much with a Mount. They can contribute to all aspects of the game. Completely and entirely. Where as any other game this is not the case.
A lvl one cannot help you kill a Kraken type MoB in LotrO. In Darkfall, YES YOU CAN!!1
The game is pure Win. This was a bash thread and people need to look beyond this
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In a 1v1 fight, the chances of winning as a newb vs a hardcore player are pretty slim, BUT it is still possible. It's definitely possible to defend yourself in a small group vs a hardcore player or two, I've done it several times already.
Just last night a group of 3 reds tried to attack us newbs north of Red Moon. There were 4 newbs and 1 higher lvl who was farming with us. We managed to repel their attacks twice, and they finally left for easier kills.
Another example: I was killing goblins just north of Red Moon when a mounted human with some kind of metal armor (still new enough to not know what the different metal armor sets look like) rode up and attacked me. I managed to kill his mount and take 1/4 of his health before he finally killed me. That's not bad for a newb. He probably sucked, but the point is I was able to defend myself well and "hurt" him before he killed me despite his being higher level. He killed me, but he lost a mount in the process.
In WoW or AoC or WAR, if a higher level were to attack me, it'd be over in 1 or 2 hits. There would be no fight and I probably wouldn't even get a chance to face my attacker. In DFO, I not only faced them, I made them pay for killing me.
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
Yesterday, NEW was attacked by 2 PKers. I happened to get attacked by the 2 of them. They are obviously stronger than I am as far as damage, health and armor goes as I am completly naked (was gathering). So 2vs1 and I nearly killed 1 of them (1 more hit and he was dead), the other was shooting me with backshot arrows. I'm still in NEW though (30 days will be over on Monday) so yes IT IS POSSIBLE. It's a skill-based game, not a level based so the OP is wrong.
There's even many videos on youtube about players dealing with 3vs1, 4vs1 etc...and actually winning. Goes to show that DarkFall is not the typical level-based game.
^^
It's never to late, less you play Darkfall
.
To the OP...dont try to inform people of something that is false...
There are some valid points which you got, but that isnt that bad as you say. Im playing about 1 week and 3 days. I hang all the time with my bro and we farm / grind together. Its always safer. We got pkd few times and mostly because we didnt see the Pks coming as they sneaked up on us
Sound is extremly important in darkfall as any action which you do creates a sound over large area and this can reveal your position.
By my experience which isnt much but still ive done nice pvp so far
One as we were farming we saw a fireball incoming and runed away as we feared a pk. After a while we sneaked back and saw a guy farming which shiny metal armor. We couldnt resist and rushed towards him to kill him. Ofcourse we failed
anything else would be insane. He lost his mount and was about at 50% of life. Our mistake was that we run out of stamina at the end and he ( drunk stamina pots) slayed us easy going. Still that was exciting and we would have been a week or 2 older he would have been dead 
There is a chance to win against an old player but none in 1vs1 open pvp.
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I really wish I knew, lol.
The game was SO fun at release. I only quit bc of [other] issues, and I just now returned to find out the game isn't the same in this regard
It sucks to buy a game solely just to PvP, and find out you have to work for a month before you can even play the game.
If you can't put in a measly month of effort to get your character up to a competitive level what are you doing playing mmos?
Honestly I think there are very few people left that understand what mmos should(IMO)/could be. And that is why the giant games list here looks the way it does.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
One doesn't have to put a month of effort into Df, one mearely has to put a few weeks of macroing in... like half [or more] of the people who play it!
its so funny to see fanboi's talk about DF and skill... really? It takes skill to swing that sword over and over and over? [or have a macro do it for you] or cast that magic spell over and over?
And the OP was perfectly clear: Skill level is still levels... the only levelless games are true FPS's where the only difference between your char and mine are the weapon loadout. Everything else comes from the player.
This is NOT true of DF. period.
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
I have not seen anyone using macros to skill up so far (fairly new) I think that has been largely done away with.
I do find it silly though that people try to use macro / hacks as a main point to avoid playing Darkfall and really if that is the best you got, then DF is in good shape! Every game has these same problems!
EQ2 I remember everyone used macros in their houses to raise crafting skills. In WoW Battlegrounds I would see people using speed hacks all the time. In EQ1 guilds often exploited mob positon to defeat raid encounters, heck the biggie of them all back when I followed that game was when a guild exploited the Sleeper. CoH people abused bugs with the sidekick feature.
In Aion, I just logged off (I have a paid sub so I log on here and there) I saw multiple farming bots and TWO hackers, at least it looked like their were since they were super fast and teleporting all over the screen wiping out mobs. This was in an hours play time.
So it is no shock at all that people used macro, hacks and exploits in DF and trying to use that as a means to deface the game just comes off stupid since they all have this! As I said since all the changes to skill gains, I have seen ZERO macro bots.
As for skill...no MMO takes skill, and it is funny when I see MMO gamers wave their epeen around like it does.
The "skill" is being able to make enough time to play non stop and minimize bathroom breaks to gain advantage. Hence no skill at all. A normal MMO where you have hard target locks and press 1-9 on your keyboard is not skill, and it is terrifying to me how many people have trouble with this...I mean...wow...really?
Darkfall is not skill but it does use some FPS elements which IMO does make it harder in many ways. I am not a big FPS player nor am I great at them so for me archery is a challenge and one I enjoy greatly. Having to aim is at least a small amount of skill, using some twitch gameplay to aim, dodge, block and so on is some skill and more so again IMO them memorizing the order in which to hit your 1-9 keys.
The biggest difference I think between a true level based game and a skill based one is freedome.
A game with levels is built around that meaning each "zone" is built for a level range. If your to low you will get roflstomped, to high and it is a pointless place to be (unless to farm, assuming there is no trivial loot code...). Itemization also follows the same method, it is tiered by levels and so you must meet a level, to use the gear. What skills and how you fight is determined by level. Dungeons, raids, pvp everything in the game is built around your player level. This is terribly constricting and limits what you can do as a player.
In a skill based system like Darkfall...the world is open to you from the get go, the world offers even the newbie a rich bounty. A group of newbs CAN defeat a skilled up character where as a lvl based game that will not happen, in many it is truly impossible where as in DF most things are not impossible, highly improbable perhaps but there is always that glimmer of hope. A new player in DF can contribute they can man cannons, they can be fodder, they are not stuck in a noob zone and forced to progress a certain way until their level right and their gear is right and so on.
SO yea ANY MMO will have a grind, it is stupid to think otherwise and even stupid to declare like you had some sort of epiphany, common knowledge a MMO has a grind....they need you to keep playing!! How they make their $$$ so of course DF has a grind.
DF is not level based in the traditional sense and I think I have proven that how much more flexible the system in DF is compared to a level based game like WoW, Aion and so on.
Also a good point was made in that of course a newb will not be as skilled as the person who has played for 6 months...that is how it should be!!
Sturmrabe, you seem to have a split personality that I find enjoyable. You're a troll in here, yet a fanboy in the FE forum. You're post history is very entertaining. You come across (over here) as one of the FE trolls that you always pounce on with such fanbotty voracity.
Good times.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Proof? Stats from? I can take a guess...
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
I understand from where you are coming, but show me a MMORPG where you don't need to swallow that awful pill of daily grind.
Skill progression is much faster now, however from my personal point of view ( a person who have hardly any time to play ) it still is slow.
What can I advice you:
1. Take some available quests: darkfallinfo.wetpaint.com/page/Darkfall+Quests. Some of them have nice rewards.
2. Try to focus a bit on skills: go and kill goblins / kobolds / trolls / orcs / akathars / centuars etc whatever you can handle. Use bow and melee weapon or with spells and melee or whatever combination you want to level up. You will notice faster progression.
From what I have heard yesterday from a fellow clan member you need around 24 hours of strict melee fighting to reach the max level in it. Some people see it as acceptable, I don't, especially in a game where pvp have such a huge influence on all other content.
The grind is one of the main reasons why I may swap to Mortal Online if it will deliver, right now that game is much bigger mess then DF was in early beta. However if you have access to MO beta you can definitely appreciate much faster progression, meaningful stats ( STR, AGI, INT etc ) and faster resources gathering, the game design direction. What I can't stand is place holder pve ( I doubt they will ever make it as good as Darkfall's ), placeholders, placeholders...in general the early stage of development.
I resubbed DF about 3 weeks ago.
I have to agree with you and the OP, 100%
The grind and levels is killing me.
I wanted to make staves. In order to make then I need alchemy.
In order to get alchemy I need 25 wisdom. I only had 22.
Harvesting and crafting increase Wis. I fished, herbed, logged, mined for a couple hours every night for the past 4 days to get my wisdom up. In between I would fight some goblins to get the money I needed to buy the tools and skills so that I could eventually make staves.
My wisdom is now 25.something.
My lesser magic is now 66.+. I want to do mostly magic.
My harvesting skills are in the 40's. Low.
Alchemy is only like 14.
I can make a Rank 0 staff. It's not any better then what the goblins drop.
I have to use 2 sulfar to make one staff. No one wants to buy these staves, they're vendor trash. The NPC sells sulfar for 4g, that's expensive, don't buy from him. Players sell it much cheaper, I have to kill goblins a lot to get a healthy suply of gold for sulfar.
I mine for my sulfar.
In about an hour of mining I can get 12+ sulfar. I use 2 to make a staff.
I've made almost 30 staves. I have only 14 alchemy. I need 2 sulfar to make one staff. I have to mine for about an hour to get 12 more.
Lineage 2 was NEVER this tedious.
The question is are you enjoying your time getting maker at making staves? I mean if your not then why play at all, that is the game, because you can make a better staff will not make thing magically more fun, the same is true of people who complain that they hate raiding and yet keep playing and complaining when their game keeps releasing raid content.
If your enjoy yourself then who cares about the grind? Is there some huge rush for you to be able to make more powerful staves? i really doubt there is, so just take your time and have fun, wether you can make better stuff now or next week is not a huge issue as long as your progress and enjoy yourself. If the fun is not there, it will never be there just because you made a virtual item that has better numbers on it.
I think many modern MMOs have brainwashed people into thinking there is some rush to reach endgame be it pve, pvp or crafting and that the journey to that point is a necessary evil to reach the magical endgame which is never really magical at all. If Darkfall did one huge thing for me it is that I do not feel that pressure in game and find I can go at my own pace and enjoy myself, where in a game like WoW, Aion, whatever, I feel that sense of having to rush with my sights solely on endgame and i trudge though the sludge of leveling.
EDIT - Side note is that Crafting in Darkfall is a full on way to play the game, it is deep and it is vital. In a game like WoW crafting is tacked onto the side, you can do it or not, no biggie, it makes some good items, some fun items but in the end all the best items will be from mobs or pvp. Same with most of these titles.
In Darkfall you can play a true crafter and crafted items are most important and more help in creating the world be it cities of naval fleets. So of course it will take more "effort" being it is just as important as grinding mobs in pve or killing fools in pvp.