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Analogy for gaming without a death penalty
pencilrick
Member Posts: 1,550
In trying to explain to some folks on this board the importance, in regards to immersion and risk and reward, for having a death (or failure) penalty, I think I have finally come up with an analogy:
Imagine playing poker with play money. Doesn't really hurt when you lose, but doesn't really mean as much when you win.
Now, imagine playing poker (small stakes) with real money. Losing sort of stings, but winning has a thrill; gets the adrenaline pumping. Such a game would draw a person in more than the former example.
A penalty for failure is critical for MMO's to have immersion and for rewards to fully be appreciated.
Comments
Ok bud... be specific... what game are you reflecting on about death penalty.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
good example,very good
but they would brake that machine and take their money back ,like its happening at Darkfall at the moment.
so there must laws to follow and rules to play with.
and in the end in the free gaming world ,police and judges too.
Generation P
WOW. Lots of level 80 dudes walking around in purples and no big deal really.
Now in early EQ, first time I saw a flaming sword, which was very hard and risky to acquire, I was awestruck.
The only difference I can see is the death penalty. EQ's was solid; WOW's is inconsequential almost.
Theres only 3 games that I know of that offer the feeling of eq that you mentioned ultima online, darkfall and mortal online when it gets released. It is a diffrent feeling.
This is completely and utterly subjective. For me, the dying part is penalty enough - I have failed, I died, and I have to restart. Why would you need to add penalties on top of that? It does not add any immersion or make rewards more appreciated - that happens when I accomplish a diffficult and time consuming task. If I die trying and have to redo it, that's plenty enough penalty thank you very much.
Imagine a college class. You fail a pop quiz. Therefore you will fail the whole class, be kicked out of college, and have all your stuff burned in front of you. You sure as hell be constantly prepared, but would you enjoy college?
The thing is, though your analaogy works, it just might not resonate with various people.
Imagine being a person who would never play poker because they would never play with real money. Now imagine the use of fake "for fun money" and now they will play because they aren't losing something of value.
Your analogy works only to those people who are inclined to gamble and lose or win real money. But believe it or not, many people don't gamble real money. Myself included. I work(ed) hard for my money and I sure as hell would never put any of it in a poker game.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I have to say that failing is enough for me. However, given the current game death penalties that I have seen, I would rather xp debt, money debt (like Aion) or then after all is said and done, loss of xp.
I don't want to have to run back and get my stuff/body and I don't like a debuff that makes you more fragile such as lotro.
So death penalties really are subjective.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Your example works only on gamblers. Poker isn't that much of a good game, its the gambler's rush people love and the mindgame. In the end, it's quite boring.
As a counterpoint I offer you: There is no death penalty in sports but still losing is bad. The losing team in a soccer match isn't going to be "punished" for their failure. And still soccer is fun.
I disagree with you. Fear of failure is not necessary to enjoy MMOs.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
This is completely and utterly subjective True. For me, the dying part is penalty enough - I have failed, I died, and I have to restart. Why would you need to add penalties on top of that? It does not add any immersion It can do if done right or make rewards more appreciated it can do if done right- that happens when I accomplish a diffficult and time consuming task such a fighting a superior oponent and actually winning through aplication of a cunning plan. If I die trying and have to redo it, that's plenty enough penalty thank you very much. As long as your happy afterall MMO's are supposed to be fun.
Imagine a college class. You fail a pop quiz. Therefore you will fail the whole class, be kicked out of college, and have all your stuff burned in front of you. You sure as hell be constantly prepared, but would you enjoy college?
First of all i will say to the OP tho i agree with your analogy i still think its a good system as it promotes easy to get fun. A death penalty that actually matters [such as item loss not XP loss] will make fun harder to get to as you have to make a riskgold assesment before you get your jollies, not saying this is bad as some of us enjoy a challenge.
To Aercus you analogy is faulty afterall how often do you get kicked out of a college course on the basis of one failed Quiz? A better analogy would be to say you brought a gun and went out to murder someone for fun, understanding the Police could turn up and kill you. Also you are right not everyone likes Penalties in a game but they are needed to some level to create a challenge which is part of the fun. You like just a restart of a instance others find such a penalty pointless and unsatisfying which is why we get these topics as they are bored of mainstream MMO games.
You see Analogy's use real world examples, which is why they are called Analogy's.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
soccer is good example yes yes,you must give everything from you to a single match and every second ,no you must give even more and try even harder ,and the feeling when you lose is bit more than death penalty ,death is easy ,bye bye and gone,but losing when you gave everything you got,you feel that all that 20 years you tried to master wasnt enough,how to do even better in next match.it makes you feel that you dont want to lose again,ever,which makes you try and play even harder.
Generation P
Risk vs Reward is always a big thing for me in games. But even the game I play now dying once really doesn't bother me cuz I haven't died many times in a row. If I die my equipment gets damaged but also I a minus 10% xp for 5 minutes i believe for the first tier. 20% is T2 for to 10 minutes i think. lol Ive only died 2 times in a row like that once. But I think it goes up to T5 but I really don't know cuz Ive never died that many times in a row. But I could imagine if you did and didn't repair all your gear, everything would be destroyed and youd have -50% xp for 25 minutes.
Even if the game had no death penalty at all id still try not to die rather than thinking, oh man I got some adds im just going to die and try it again. I like challenges and I will try to conquer those challenges and if Im about to die I try to run away to fight another day. But sometimes running away doesn't work when you have ranged mobs that are pumping you full of lead when your trying to get away.
But I remember the days of FFXI where you would lose xp when you died and could even de-level, I didn't mind it at all. In all actuality I think that kind of penalty will make you a better player because you don't want to lose that xp you just gained and you will try everything in your power not to die. Opposed to a game that has virtually no penalty like WAR people might just give up because there is no consequence for dying.
Well put Sovrath and I agree with you. I never gamble for money, I simply refuse it. I play games with my friends and I strongly believe in never putting money between friends and family, this also goes for money used in a game or in betting.
But we play the card game Whist and we do so without money. We calculate points and nominate a winner for the evening. This is fine, because we play for the honour of winning.
I find that much more full-filling, the honour and knowing I was best and that I improved myself since last time and learned new tricks.
I think the good ol' XP loss is way too artificial for today.
I mean, back then in Lineage 2 you could lose weeks or even months worth of leveling and even delevel if you died, be it in PvP and PvE.
I was thinking at an ressurection from the otherworld, based on your alignment(or something similar): escaping from hell-style death. It could also get harder with the content you're doing.
I'm aware of no MMORPG on the market which completely lacks a death penalty. So the OP must be a happy gamer indeed.
No significant portion of game designers or players advocates zero death penalty. We are merely against excessive death penalty (which is a huge difference.)
In fact all existing death penalties cost you Time, which is functionally identical to the real money used in Poker.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I like harsh death penalties when they make sense and are balanced.
In a Game like Eve you lose you ship, modules, implants and Rigs when you die/get podded.
This sounds pretty fucked up but this is needed to keep the market flowing.
Also when the killer of this person goes to loot the wreck of the victim 80% of the Modules/cargo is blow to hell along with the ship and implants.
That right there makes sense. You lose shit, this helps the market and the killer gets something but not everything.
Lets take a fucked up death penalty system like Darkfall.
In a game like Darkfall you lose all your armor, weapons, mounts & materials when you die.
This is pretty messed up but unlike Eve what the killer gets in return is not balanced at all.
They get 100% of the players shit. Now if gear never goes away how the hell is this DP system helping crafters and the games economy?
It's just being circulated and inflating the game more and more.
See it makes no sense.
So as much as the Op wants to make analogies of Dp in mmos understand the Dp could ruin a game. A dp system needs to be thought out and balanced properly for it to work. This is alot of work for most developers and most wont even bother.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
WoW's death penalty is tougher than EQ2's these days. If I wanted a poor man's evac in EQ2, I would aggro a bunch of mobs, die and rez in town.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
OP fails to realize what a death penalty is.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
I don't think that analogy works actually,
The reason is in poker by playing for real money there is the ability to gain more money but also lose it, with increased risk comes increased rewards. MMOs are not like that, with a death penalty you have more risk but not more reward to compensate, and I don't think the presence of a death penalty makes items more valuable to the player, how useful the items are does.
Cause it is not like by risking more I feel the rewards are better, it is still just an epic weapon I need to make my character better, not too interesting either way, adding a penalty just acts as a setback in me trying to get it, it doesn't make the reward better.
For risk and reward to actually work in a game you would need an option to risk more by some penalty but also get better rewards, that is the only way the risk and reward relationship could exist in an MMO, otherwise you are just punishing people.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
I love it, forget about the flamers in this thread.
That's a great analogy.
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WoW has no death penalty for PVP.
You can die 100,000 times in a single BG, your team can still win, and you lose no durability.
Time is not identical to money in Poker. If it was, single hands wouldn't last 30min - 1hr in a 10man game. Time is not a penalty.
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This is completely and utterly subjective True. For me, the dying part is penalty enough - I have failed, I died, and I have to restart. Why would you need to add penalties on top of that? It does not add any immersion It can do if done right or make rewards more appreciated it can do if done right- that happens when I accomplish a diffficult and time consuming task such a fighting a superior oponent and actually winning through aplication of a cunning plan. If I die trying and have to redo it, that's plenty enough penalty thank you very much. As long as your happy afterall MMO's are supposed to be fun.
Imagine a college class. You fail a pop quiz. Therefore you will fail the whole class, be kicked out of college, and have all your stuff burned in front of you. You sure as hell be constantly prepared, but would you enjoy college?
First of all i will say to the OP tho i agree with your analogy i still think its a good system as it promotes easy to get fun. A death penalty that actually matters [such as item loss not XP loss] will make fun harder to get to as you have to make a riskgold assesment before you get your jollies, not saying this is bad as some of us enjoy a challenge.
To Aercus you analogy is faulty afterall how often do you get kicked out of a college course on the basis of one failed Quiz? A better analogy would be to say you brought a gun and went out to murder someone for fun, understanding the Police could turn up and kill you. Also you are right not everyone likes Penalties in a game but they are needed to some level to create a challenge which is part of the fun. You like just a restart of a instance others find such a penalty pointless and unsatisfying which is why we get these topics as they are bored of mainstream MMO games.
You see Analogy's use real world examples, which is why they are called Analogy's.
A few things to this. I find death penalties annoying. Take the example of Lotro where you get 10-15 minutes of dread from dying. The only thing this did, when I was in a place which had already a dread debuff, was forcing me to wait the specified amount of time, alt tabbing out of the game and read an article. There was also item repair bills, which essentially made me skip quite a few difficult bosses because it was impossible to find enough people and there would surely be a bit of costly dying as we figured the boss out. That is not adding immersion, but rather detracting it. It is not adding "fun" either, and makes me avoid risk.
As for my analogy, it holds and having true real world examples is not a requirement. You do not have those penalties in college because they are uneccesary and harsh. Having failed the quiz, i.e. dying in an MMO, is punishment enough, and there is, imho, no need to add further consequences.
Adding penalties and punishment is something you do for unnacceptable behaviour to make it less "fun", i.e. the criminal justice system. MMO's are all about having fun, so why would you want something that punishes your players in it? The most successful game of all time is chess, and there is no harsh penalties for losing. Do you really think it would be equally successful if you lost a match you had to play the next game without a runner?
People who seek heavy penalties in their entertainment, which in MMO terms means excessive wasted time, their real life has less meaning than the game. Or, their time has little value so using it up RE-playing a game is acceptable.
Ask yourself this? After playing a pickup game of B-ball and losing, would you force yourself to sit around for an hour before playing again? Do you destroy the ball and buy a new one? Do you rip the net down, then go to Sports Authority or Dicks and buy a new one before playing again? Nope, you just play again and you have fun. Why punish yourself for losing? It would seem absurd to do it in real life, so why is it OK in a videogame?
If you need to be kicked in the virtual nuts to feel accomplishment, all the power to ya.
Why does everyone use the sports analogy?
I'm Athletic, but not everyone plays sports or enjoys sports. I Golf alot, but that's about it. Even there, we usually bet money, or play beer chug scramble. (you lose the putt, you chug)
I play alot of poker and have been betting since I was 14. Pretty damn good at Stud & Draw, not so much at Hold'em.
Honestly, how many people on this forum can say they went out and played Basketball in the last month? Or Football (exluding Thanksgiving) or Soccer?
You're on a video game forum, relating them to sports.
Mind Games > Sports
If a Mind Game doesn't have a penalty, then it's pretty much worthless. Relate them to sports all you want, find me a popular mind game that people play ALOT that doesn't have a penalty of some sort (that's not time).
Unless you get physically tired, releasing endorphins, playing video games. The sports Analogy is freaking pathetic. Where as, if you're going to lose something in a video game that you know that's going to take something away, you're going to get high on adrenaline. If you can get an adrenaline rush from no penalties or anything of the sort, good for you. I don't and neither do the other PVPers who want the penalties.
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Chess.
Chess.
Ha
Got me. I knew there was at least one, but I couldn't think of it.
But, in Chess..... you still lose your pieces! So, it's not completely w/o penalty for making a bad move. Much more relatable to losing XP or Gear than losing time or playing sports to get high on natural opiates.
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