Theres only 3 games that I know of that offer the feeling of eq that you mentioned ultima online, darkfall and mortal online when it gets released. It is a diffrent feeling.
Vanguard as well.
Not having a death penalty is kind of like having sex while wearing 10 condoms. Sure your having sex, but are you really feeling anything? You sure are protected from STD's though!
If a Mind Game doesn't have a penalty, then it's pretty much worthless. Relate them to sports all you want, find me a popular mind game that people play ALOT that doesn't have a penalty of some sort (that's not time).
Chess.
Ha
Got me. I knew there was at least one, but I couldn't think of it.
But, in Chess..... you still lose your pieces! So, it's not completely w/o penalty for making a bad move. Much more relatable to losing XP or Gear than losing time or playing sports to get high on natural opiates.
Chess is also based on War, is it not? War has the ultimate penalties.
I would say losing pieces is like losing HP. When they are gone, you have lost. When HP goes to 0, you are dead. Then you start fresh, without any penalties except to hurt feelings and maybe a lesson learned. A game of chess is of course much longer than killing a mob, but at the end of both, you either won or lost. And since chess has been around for a few thousand years in one form or another, the general idea of fresh start after losing might not be too bad..
The underlying factor of all this is that sports, poker, and MMOs are all games. We partake in their activities because we enjoy the activity. However, in MMOs, there is a lot of virtual things to enjoy. Death Penalty advocates want to see more risk / reward in encounters so they can tout their prize. But what if you like crafting? Spawn camping? What if you like deep rich lore? What if you want to explore and unlock metagames? I will be less likely to spend money on that multi million dollar investment if It hurts too much too often to obtain some reward that can only be gotten by a guild that is on 24 -7 (heck, chinese farmers anyone?).
Todays devs are taking the sting out of death penalties because they want players to enjoy their game. More people leave a game if it is too frustrating to play than leaving a game because everyone has the same purple gear.
For risk and reward to actually work in a game you would need an option to risk more by some penalty but also get better rewards, that is the only way the risk and reward relationship could exist in an MMO, otherwise you are just punishing people.
Interestingly, Tabula Rasa had such a system toward the end.
You put a piece of gear on the line for a faction bonus. The more rare the gear, the higher the bonus %. If you die, you lose the gear.
On the topic of death penalties, I've said it a million times: death penalties in games as they are are plenty. Few are going to play a game that punishes them harshly. Dying is enough, and most MMO's do more.
The OP's analogy is quite correct. It is quite similar to gambling. And that's why most people tend to not play with real money. And when a game would "require" a person to play with real, significant "money", most will choose not to play.
That's why you see people running around in their underwear in Darkfall. They want PvP but aren't willing to sacrifice their gear to do it; and those are the supposed "hard core" players. You stick that kind of mechanic in LotRO watch the servers empty out...
I would say losing pieces is like losing HP. When they are gone, you have lost. When HP goes to 0, you are dead. Then you start fresh, without any penalties except to hurt feelings and maybe a lesson learned. A game of chess is of course much longer than killing a mob, but at the end of both, you either won or lost. And since chess has been around for a few thousand years in one form or another, the general idea of fresh start after losing might not be too bad..
Good point.
But in chess you cannot get your pieces back, no matter how many potions you bring or healing spells you cast. In games where there are death penalties, the players are more like the pieces and less like the chessmaster.
If a Mind Game doesn't have a penalty, then it's pretty much worthless. Relate them to sports all you want, find me a popular mind game that people play ALOT that doesn't have a penalty of some sort (that's not time).
Chess.
Ha
Got me. I knew there was at least one, but I couldn't think of it.
But, in Chess..... you still lose your pieces! So, it's not completely w/o penalty for making a bad move. Much more relatable to losing XP or Gear than losing time or playing sports to get high on natural opiates.
To imply that there's just one is quite incorrect. Matter of fact, EVERY BOARD GAME EVER MADE has no "death/loss penalty". Every childs game ever invented; "Simon Says", "Duck Duck Goose", etc has no death/loss penalty. You lose, that's it. "Bridge" has no death penalty. Street Fighter 4 has no death penalty. Pong has no Death penalty.
However, I think TR was onto something with their system. I think if you had a feature where you could CHOOSE to risk something of value for an increase in faction/XP, that might be a good way to appease the gamblers. Though, for the life of me, I don't understand why they just don't go for higher level mobs, which is effectively the same thing.
I would say losing pieces is like losing HP. When they are gone, you have lost. When HP goes to 0, you are dead. Then you start fresh, without any penalties except to hurt feelings and maybe a lesson learned. A game of chess is of course much longer than killing a mob, but at the end of both, you either won or lost. And since chess has been around for a few thousand years in one form or another, the general idea of fresh start after losing might not be too bad..
Good point.
But in chess you cannot get your pieces back, no matter how many potions you bring or healing spells you cast. In games where there are death penalties, the players are more like the pieces and less like the chessmaster.
People who seek heavy penalties in their entertainment, which in MMO terms means excessive wasted time, their real life has less meaning than the game. Or, their time has little value so using it up RE-playing a game is acceptable. Ask yourself this? After playing a pickup game of B-ball and losing, would you force yourself to sit around for an hour before playing again? Do you destroy the ball and buy a new one? Do you rip the net down, then go to Sports Authority or Dicks and buy a new one before playing again? Nope, you just play again and you have fun. Why punish yourself for losing? It would seem absurd to do it in real life, so why is it OK in a videogame? If you need to be kicked in the virtual nuts to feel accomplishment, all the power to ya.
Why does everyone use the sports analogy?
I'm Athletic, but not everyone plays sports or enjoys sports. I Golf alot, but that's about it. Even there, we usually bet money, or play beer chug scramble. (you lose the putt, you chug)
I play alot of poker and have been betting since I was 14. Pretty damn good at Stud & Draw, not so much at Hold'em.
Honestly, how many people on this forum can say they went out and played Basketball in the last month? Or Football (exluding Thanksgiving) or Soccer?
You're on a video game forum, relating them to sports.
Like I said, I'm Athletic and Score 250+ on APFTs so I'm probably more fit than about 90% of people here, but
Mind Games > Sports
If a Mind Game doesn't have a penalty, then it's pretty much worthless. Relate them to sports all you want, find me a popular mind game that people play ALOT that doesn't have a penalty of some sort (that's not time).
Unless you get physically tired, releasing endorphins, playing video games. The sports Analogy is freaking pathetic. Where as, if you're going to lose something in a video game that you know that's going to take something away, you're going to get high on adrenaline. If you can get an adrenaline rush from no penalties or anything of the sort, good for you. I don't and neither do the other PVPers who want the penalties.
I mention SPORTS because sports are games and videogames are games;) Whether one is physical and the other isn't is completely irrelevant. I play tennis 2X a week. I don't NEED TO bet on the game to have fun but I KNOW there are guys on the courts that are betting and you know what...they're yelling like lunatics, cursing and taking it too serious. Playing against people like that SUCKS, because I've done it. They're A-holes and these people are playing MMOs too, because you hear them on Vent or you can see what they type in chat. If thats FUN, good luck, hehe.
Videogames don't fall under different rules because you're not sweating. Games are games. If you need to be punished to have fun, thats YOUR problem and no one elses. Mind games without punishments? Chess, checkers, any board game, crossword puzzles, ect. You either win or you lose. You don't burn the crossword puzzle if you don't finish it in time do you? Or are you one of those that tosses the chess board across the room afterwards=)
I'm not talking having No penalty here. I'm talking HEAVY penalties. 5 -10 minutes of lost time is acceptable if its designed in such a way that you're not just waiting around twidling your thumbs. You're annoyed you lost. You move on. You try again. hose games where you have to go farm for an hour to make up for a death, or fetch a corpse for 2-3 hrs, never mind games where you can lose entire play sessions or days of playtime...people with no lives can have those games;) Enjoy them.
If you think videogames are different from any other GAME, thats your problem.
I would say losing pieces is like losing HP. When they are gone, you have lost. When HP goes to 0, you are dead. Then you start fresh, without any penalties except to hurt feelings and maybe a lesson learned. A game of chess is of course much longer than killing a mob, but at the end of both, you either won or lost. And since chess has been around for a few thousand years in one form or another, the general idea of fresh start after losing might not be too bad..
Good point.
But in chess you cannot get your pieces back, no matter how many potions you bring or healing spells you cast. In games where there are death penalties, the players are more like the pieces and less like the chessmaster.
Uh... nooooo...
In chess, a player isn't like the "pieces". In chess, the player is like, THE PLAYER. that's why in both instances, they're referred to as, THE PLAYER. THE PLAYER, in fact, will sacrifice pieces to win the game, frequently. One of the many reasons you can't twist the analogy like that. It's not the pieces that win or lose, it's the PLAYER.
Though, for the life of me, I don't understand why they just don't go for higher level mobs, which is effectively the same thing.
I get what you're saying on the rest of it, kids games are irrelevant and action games are more about the action rather than the penalty. I'm a big FPS player and I love fighting games, if a MMORPG had the combat of either of them, then I probably wouldn't care about the penalties. I have yet to find a single MMO that's even closely comparable to a good FPS or Fighting Game.
But about what I quoted, mobs are static. Even if they have extremely good AIs it's not even going to be even slightly comparable to a mentally handicapped person playing a character. I played WoW for the raids, I enjoyed the hell out of them till they became a grind. Pretty good scripted fights with lots of variables and a team people doing a choreographed dance. Fun, yeah. But, it becomes repetative after the first few times, where as PVP is never repetitive.......... mostly. WoW has done a pretty good job at making PVP repetitive. :-| I didn't think it was possible, but they did. But, I didn't play for the PVP.
Like I said above, I a big big FPS player. But, you know the last game I beat on single player mode? Doom II on Sega Genesis x32
Whether one is physical and the other isn't is completely irrelevant. I play tennis 2X a week.
No it's really not. See the link I left in the quote above. I have played Tennis and it killed me. That is not an easy sport. lol
<snip>
If you think videogames are different from any other GAME, thats your problem.
Not at all. I am actually a pretty casual player. But, PVP games with harsh death penalties is probably one of the biggest adrenaline rushes you can get doing something that isn't going to potentially kill you.
I understand where PVEers are coming from, I really do. But, what alot of PVEers don't realize is that PVPers don't play to hurt people, they aren't fat 35yr old virgins sitting behind their computers...
There is an adrenaline rush for playing a PVP game with harsh death penalties, and that's why people play games like DFO and EVE.
It's not about the punishment, it's about the opposite.... NOBODY wants to be punished. But, being put in a penalty box is not a good reason for me to stay alive. Losing all my crap is.
I like harsh death penalties when they make sense and are balanced. In a Game like Eve you lose you ship, modules, implants and Rigs when you die/get podded. This sounds pretty fucked up but this is needed to keep the market flowing. Also when the killer of this person goes to loot the wreck of the victim 80% of the Modules/cargo is blow to hell along with the ship and implants.
That right there makes sense. You lose shit, this helps the market and the killer gets something but not everything.
Lets take a fucked up death penalty system like Darkfall. In a game like Darkfall you lose all your armor, weapons, mounts & materials when you die. This is pretty messed up but unlike Eve what the killer gets in return is not balanced at all. They get 100% of the players shit. Now if gear never goes away how the hell is this DP system helping crafters and the games economy? It's just being circulated and inflating the game more and more.
See it makes no sense. So as much as the Op wants to make analogies of Dp in mmos understand the Dp could ruin a game. A dp system needs to be thought out and balanced properly for it to work. This is alot of work for most developers and most wont even bother.
Well in DF gear has durability and doesn't last long if you use it, you can go through it quite quickly. As for EVE items degrade very slowly by comparison, that's probably why they blow up to stimulate the market. It actually evens itself out, DFO items break quickly and EVE items don't but get destroyed on dieing.
So the gear does go away quickly in DFO, trust me.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
Though, for the life of me, I don't understand why they just don't go for higher level mobs, which is effectively the same thing.
But about what I quoted, mobs are static. Even if they have extremely good AIs it's not even going to be even slightly comparable to a mentally handicapped person playing a character. I played WoW for the raids, I enjoyed the hell out of them till they became a grind. Pretty good scripted fights with lots of variables and a team people doing a choreographed dance. Fun, yeah. But, it becomes repetative after the first few times, where as PVP is never repetitive.......... mostly. WoW has done a pretty good job at making PVP repetitive. :-| I didn't think it was possible, but they did. But, I didn't play for the PVP.
Like I said above, I a big big FPS player. But, you know the last game I beat on single player mode? Doom II on Sega Genesis x32
OK, I get ya. But I don't see how that has anything to do with death penalties. Or how having stiffer ones would make "mentally handicapped" ai more challenging.
Why a death penalty? Spellborn doesn't have a death penalty but it will reward you if you stay alive. Each fight you get PeP and it is used to improve your pep rank( from 0 to 5) the higher the rank the better are the bonus. Every time you die you lose a rank and it sucks to pvp someone with rank 5 and you rank 0.
"you are like the world revenge on sarcasm, you know that?"
I like harsh death penalties when they make sense and are balanced. In a Game like Eve you lose you ship, modules, implants and Rigs when you die/get podded. This sounds pretty fucked up but this is needed to keep the market flowing. Also when the killer of this person goes to loot the wreck of the victim 80% of the Modules/cargo is blow to hell along with the ship and implants.
That right there makes sense. You lose shit, this helps the market and the killer gets something but not everything.
Lets take a fucked up death penalty system like Darkfall. In a game like Darkfall you lose all your armor, weapons, mounts & materials when you die. This is pretty messed up but unlike Eve what the killer gets in return is not balanced at all. They get 100% of the players shit. Now if gear never goes away how the hell is this DP system helping crafters and the games economy? It's just being circulated and inflating the game more and more.
See it makes no sense. So as much as the Op wants to make analogies of Dp in mmos understand the Dp could ruin a game. A dp system needs to be thought out and balanced properly for it to work. This is alot of work for most developers and most wont even bother.
Well in DF gear has durability and doesn't last long if you use it, you can go through it quite quickly. As for EVE items degrade very slowly by comparison, that's probably why they blow up to stimulate the market. It actually evens itself out, DFO items break quickly and EVE items don't but get destroyed on dieing.
So the gear does go away quickly in DFO, trust me.
OH I know it has duribility, sorry it was early when i first typed this.
What i was getting at is balance.
See the PKer in DF gets too much for the effort imo.
Wouldn't it be more realistic if several pieces of gear are damaged beyond repair after you ruthlessly nuke or stab someone through their armor?
Thats why i was saying it makes no sense.
Things need balance and while I do enjoy high risk pvp I also like to know that someone isnt getting overly rewarded for a kill.
Disregard this post if gear does break on death because last time i played it didnt.
See with me all these board game and sports if I lose, i lose oh well. No reason to really try my hardest to win if im already losing because im not really losing anything. I can challenge the person again or start another game by myself depending which game it is. Now if there were some sort of consequence for losing the game then hell yeah im going to try my hardest to win because I don't want to suffer the consequence of losing.
Im really not a competitive person, I never really liked playing sports well besides Dagorhir and paintball. But in those there are penalties, you get hit it can possibly hurt and your dead so you have to sit out and wait for the match to be over which can end up lasting a while.
Actually, the pawn can become any piece, except a king or a pawn, and the piece does not have to be one that was taken. Therefore, you could actually have 2 queens...
I feel that some of the comparisons/analogies here, especially the ones to sports, are not completely accurate. I don't think anyone that is suggesting death penalties are needed would say that it's the equivalent to forcing yourself to sit around and do nothing for an hour after you lose a soccer game, or burn the ball and need to go and buy a new one. Maybe some people see it that way, and if so then they are indeed entitled to their opinion, I just personally do not agree with it. I'm not claiming that I am correct or that they are incorrect, just that our views are different.
Sports would not be my first choice to compare computer games to, but if I was going to try and make a comparison between soccer and an mmo then it might be something like this. Say for example that you attack something/someone in your mmo, and you fail to kill him, and there is no sort of penalty for dying whatsoever, then all that will happen is that you run back and try again, and again etc. until you finally kill him. To me that would be sort of like if in soccer when a player is awarded a penalty and they miss it then they get to re-take it until they finally score. Similarly when a team loses a match in soccer it's true that they don't sit around for an hour as punishment, but they also don't simply get to replay the other team again and again until they have won. That loss is recorded and is there for the remainder of the season, and it affects their final position in the table. In mmo terms that would be the same (in my opinion) as saying that if you die while on a quest then you fail that quest and are not ever allowed to do it again. There would also be only a limited number of quests and if you failed any (or a certain number) you would never be able to reach max level (similar to finishing top of the league in soccer).
I am of course not at all saying that in an MMO if you lose a fight then you should never be able to take on that character/player again, or that dying/failing a quest should mean that it's never re-playable. What I am however saying is that I think that there are severe penalties for losing/failing in soccer (and other sports) and that these are in fact more severe than any 'reasonable' MMO penalty would be.
I understand where PVEers are coming from, I really do. But, what alot of PVEers don't realize is that PVPers don't play to hurt people, they aren't fat 35yr old virgins sitting behind their computers...
There is an adrenaline rush for playing a PVP game with harsh death penalties, and that's why people play games like DFO and EVE.
It's not about the punishment, it's about the opposite.... NOBODY wants to be punished. But, being put in a penalty box is not a good reason for me to stay alive. Losing all my crap is.
Perhaps they aren't ALL trying to hurt people. But a great number of them are. That's why most ffa and faction PvP is a gankfest, as opposed to toe to toe epic battles the likes of which make folks like Metalhead drool.
I don't think it's a stretch to say that ganking is a big part of the culture of PvP. And since most games don't reward it, and in many cases give penalties, people still do it. What else could they be doing it for other than wanting to grief other players?
therefore, what greater joy could you give to gankers besides stacking huge death penalties on those people, most of whom would have the good sense to cancel their sub after the 3rd or 4th time suffering huge losses from death?
I like harsh death penalties when they make sense and are balanced. In a Game like Eve you lose you ship, modules, implants and Rigs when you die/get podded. This sounds pretty fucked up but this is needed to keep the market flowing. Also when the killer of this person goes to loot the wreck of the victim 80% of the Modules/cargo is blow to hell along with the ship and implants.
That right there makes sense. You lose shit, this helps the market and the killer gets something but not everything.
Lets take a fucked up death penalty system like Darkfall. In a game like Darkfall you lose all your armor, weapons, mounts & materials when you die. This is pretty messed up but unlike Eve what the killer gets in return is not balanced at all. They get 100% of the players shit. Now if gear never goes away how the hell is this DP system helping crafters and the games economy? It's just being circulated and inflating the game more and more.
See it makes no sense. So as much as the Op wants to make analogies of Dp in mmos understand the Dp could ruin a game. A dp system needs to be thought out and balanced properly for it to work. This is alot of work for most developers and most wont even bother.
Well in DF gear has durability and doesn't last long if you use it, you can go through it quite quickly. As for EVE items degrade very slowly by comparison, that's probably why they blow up to stimulate the market. It actually evens itself out, DFO items break quickly and EVE items don't but get destroyed on dieing.
So the gear does go away quickly in DFO, trust me.
OH I know it has duribility, sorry it was early when i first typed this.
What i was getting at is balance.
See the PKer in DF gets too much for the effort imo.
Wouldn't it be more realistic if several pieces of gear are damaged beyond repair after you ruthlessly nuke or stab someone through their armor?
Thats why i was saying it makes no sense.
Things need balance and while I do enjoy high risk pvp I also like to know that someone isnt getting overly rewarded for a kill.
Disregard this post if gear does break on death because last time i played it didnt.
Gear doesn't break on death, but recieving too higher a reward is dependant on what the other guy has. It's a simpe risk vs reward, I see a naked noob logging and I kill him I get pretty much nothing of value for my effort despite it all dropping. I kill a noob fighting Goblins, I wouldn't even bother taking his gear. I see a higher level guy in some bloodcrafted armour with R65+ weapons, I'm gonna die most probably. A few friends and we can take him but the loot is split.
I understand you see it as the rewards are too high but let me put this to you. As a current DFO player and former EVE player (two years) I can say that in EVE the risk is far too low. In EVE it's just way too easy to get away from your enemy in PvP, you know who is in a system upon arrival, now there's warp to 0 and people only engage in a fight when they wish to 99% of the time or they're just dumb or newbies. I felt the risk was far too low in EVE and the rewards for actually growing a pair and risking a decent set up were too low for anyone to bother. Hence everyone flying about in 0.0 in gangs of cruisers despite being billionares.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
I understand where PVEers are coming from, I really do. But, what alot of PVEers don't realize is that PVPers don't play to hurt people, they aren't fat 35yr old virgins sitting behind their computers...
There is an adrenaline rush for playing a PVP game with harsh death penalties, and that's why people play games like DFO and EVE.
It's not about the punishment, it's about the opposite.... NOBODY wants to be punished. But, being put in a penalty box is not a good reason for me to stay alive. Losing all my crap is.
Perhaps they aren't ALL trying to hurt people. But a great number of them are. That's why most ffa and faction PvP is a gankfest, as opposed to toe to toe epic battles the likes of which make folks like Metalhead drool.
I don't think it's a stretch to say that ganking is a big part of the culture of PvP. And since most games don't reward it, and in many cases give penalties, people still do it. What else could they be doing it for other than wanting to grief other players?
therefore, what greater joy could you give to gankers besides stacking huge death penalties on those people, most of whom would have the good sense to cancel their sub after the 3rd or 4th time suffering huge losses from death?
Wtf dude! You call me out when in my very own post history I've said I was an anti-pker in UO and even against FFA full loot games without safe areas.
Seriously was there a need to use my name in your post?
ffs still so many carebears. why they didnt die yet
Playing: Rohan Played (from best to worst): Shadowbane, Guild Wars, Shayia, Age of Conan, Warhammer, Runes of Magic, Rappelz, Archlord, Knight online, King of Kings, Kal online, Last chaos
Comments
Vanguard as well.
Not having a death penalty is kind of like having sex while wearing 10 condoms. Sure your having sex, but are you really feeling anything? You sure are protected from STD's though!
Chess.
Ha
Got me. I knew there was at least one, but I couldn't think of it.
But, in Chess..... you still lose your pieces! So, it's not completely w/o penalty for making a bad move. Much more relatable to losing XP or Gear than losing time or playing sports to get high on natural opiates.
Chess is also based on War, is it not? War has the ultimate penalties.
I would say losing pieces is like losing HP. When they are gone, you have lost. When HP goes to 0, you are dead. Then you start fresh, without any penalties except to hurt feelings and maybe a lesson learned. A game of chess is of course much longer than killing a mob, but at the end of both, you either won or lost. And since chess has been around for a few thousand years in one form or another, the general idea of fresh start after losing might not be too bad..
The underlying factor of all this is that sports, poker, and MMOs are all games. We partake in their activities because we enjoy the activity. However, in MMOs, there is a lot of virtual things to enjoy. Death Penalty advocates want to see more risk / reward in encounters so they can tout their prize. But what if you like crafting? Spawn camping? What if you like deep rich lore? What if you want to explore and unlock metagames? I will be less likely to spend money on that multi million dollar investment if It hurts too much too often to obtain some reward that can only be gotten by a guild that is on 24 -7 (heck, chinese farmers anyone?).
Todays devs are taking the sting out of death penalties because they want players to enjoy their game. More people leave a game if it is too frustrating to play than leaving a game because everyone has the same purple gear.
Finally - Best site for Chuck Norris
http://www.chucknorrisfacts.com/
Interestingly, Tabula Rasa had such a system toward the end.
You put a piece of gear on the line for a faction bonus. The more rare the gear, the higher the bonus %. If you die, you lose the gear.
On the topic of death penalties, I've said it a million times: death penalties in games as they are are plenty. Few are going to play a game that punishes them harshly. Dying is enough, and most MMO's do more.
The OP's analogy is quite correct. It is quite similar to gambling. And that's why most people tend to not play with real money. And when a game would "require" a person to play with real, significant "money", most will choose not to play.
That's why you see people running around in their underwear in Darkfall. They want PvP but aren't willing to sacrifice their gear to do it; and those are the supposed "hard core" players. You stick that kind of mechanic in LotRO watch the servers empty out...
I would say losing pieces is like losing HP. When they are gone, you have lost. When HP goes to 0, you are dead. Then you start fresh, without any penalties except to hurt feelings and maybe a lesson learned. A game of chess is of course much longer than killing a mob, but at the end of both, you either won or lost. And since chess has been around for a few thousand years in one form or another, the general idea of fresh start after losing might not be too bad..
Good point.
But in chess you cannot get your pieces back, no matter how many potions you bring or healing spells you cast. In games where there are death penalties, the players are more like the pieces and less like the chessmaster.
Like Trading Card Games? Click Here.
When I die, I lose time. That's valuable enough.
It can't be that valuable if you're playing MMOs.
Like Trading Card Games? Click Here.
Chess.
Ha
Got me. I knew there was at least one, but I couldn't think of it.
But, in Chess..... you still lose your pieces! So, it's not completely w/o penalty for making a bad move. Much more relatable to losing XP or Gear than losing time or playing sports to get high on natural opiates.
To imply that there's just one is quite incorrect. Matter of fact, EVERY BOARD GAME EVER MADE has no "death/loss penalty". Every childs game ever invented; "Simon Says", "Duck Duck Goose", etc has no death/loss penalty. You lose, that's it. "Bridge" has no death penalty. Street Fighter 4 has no death penalty. Pong has no Death penalty.
However, I think TR was onto something with their system. I think if you had a feature where you could CHOOSE to risk something of value for an increase in faction/XP, that might be a good way to appease the gamblers. Though, for the life of me, I don't understand why they just don't go for higher level mobs, which is effectively the same thing.
I would say losing pieces is like losing HP. When they are gone, you have lost. When HP goes to 0, you are dead. Then you start fresh, without any penalties except to hurt feelings and maybe a lesson learned. A game of chess is of course much longer than killing a mob, but at the end of both, you either won or lost. And since chess has been around for a few thousand years in one form or another, the general idea of fresh start after losing might not be too bad..
Good point.
But in chess you cannot get your pieces back, no matter how many potions you bring or healing spells you cast. In games where there are death penalties, the players are more like the pieces and less like the chessmaster.
Get a pawn across and you res your queen
Why does everyone use the sports analogy?
I'm Athletic, but not everyone plays sports or enjoys sports. I Golf alot, but that's about it. Even there, we usually bet money, or play beer chug scramble. (you lose the putt, you chug)
I play alot of poker and have been betting since I was 14. Pretty damn good at Stud & Draw, not so much at Hold'em.
Honestly, how many people on this forum can say they went out and played Basketball in the last month? Or Football (exluding Thanksgiving) or Soccer?
You're on a video game forum, relating them to sports.
Like I said, I'm Athletic and Score 250+ on APFTs so I'm probably more fit than about 90% of people here, but
Mind Games > Sports
If a Mind Game doesn't have a penalty, then it's pretty much worthless. Relate them to sports all you want, find me a popular mind game that people play ALOT that doesn't have a penalty of some sort (that's not time).
Unless you get physically tired, releasing endorphins, playing video games. The sports Analogy is freaking pathetic. Where as, if you're going to lose something in a video game that you know that's going to take something away, you're going to get high on adrenaline. If you can get an adrenaline rush from no penalties or anything of the sort, good for you. I don't and neither do the other PVPers who want the penalties.
I mention SPORTS because sports are games and videogames are games;) Whether one is physical and the other isn't is completely irrelevant. I play tennis 2X a week. I don't NEED TO bet on the game to have fun but I KNOW there are guys on the courts that are betting and you know what...they're yelling like lunatics, cursing and taking it too serious. Playing against people like that SUCKS, because I've done it. They're A-holes and these people are playing MMOs too, because you hear them on Vent or you can see what they type in chat. If thats FUN, good luck, hehe.
Videogames don't fall under different rules because you're not sweating. Games are games. If you need to be punished to have fun, thats YOUR problem and no one elses. Mind games without punishments? Chess, checkers, any board game, crossword puzzles, ect. You either win or you lose. You don't burn the crossword puzzle if you don't finish it in time do you? Or are you one of those that tosses the chess board across the room afterwards=)
I'm not talking having No penalty here. I'm talking HEAVY penalties. 5 -10 minutes of lost time is acceptable if its designed in such a way that you're not just waiting around twidling your thumbs. You're annoyed you lost. You move on. You try again. hose games where you have to go farm for an hour to make up for a death, or fetch a corpse for 2-3 hrs, never mind games where you can lose entire play sessions or days of playtime...people with no lives can have those games;) Enjoy them.
If you think videogames are different from any other GAME, thats your problem.
I would say losing pieces is like losing HP. When they are gone, you have lost. When HP goes to 0, you are dead. Then you start fresh, without any penalties except to hurt feelings and maybe a lesson learned. A game of chess is of course much longer than killing a mob, but at the end of both, you either won or lost. And since chess has been around for a few thousand years in one form or another, the general idea of fresh start after losing might not be too bad..
Good point.
But in chess you cannot get your pieces back, no matter how many potions you bring or healing spells you cast. In games where there are death penalties, the players are more like the pieces and less like the chessmaster.
Uh... nooooo...
In chess, a player isn't like the "pieces". In chess, the player is like, THE PLAYER. that's why in both instances, they're referred to as, THE PLAYER. THE PLAYER, in fact, will sacrifice pieces to win the game, frequently. One of the many reasons you can't twist the analogy like that. It's not the pieces that win or lose, it's the PLAYER.
Though, for the life of me, I don't understand why they just don't go for higher level mobs, which is effectively the same thing.
I get what you're saying on the rest of it, kids games are irrelevant and action games are more about the action rather than the penalty. I'm a big FPS player and I love fighting games, if a MMORPG had the combat of either of them, then I probably wouldn't care about the penalties. I have yet to find a single MMO that's even closely comparable to a good FPS or Fighting Game.
But about what I quoted, mobs are static. Even if they have extremely good AIs it's not even going to be even slightly comparable to a mentally handicapped person playing a character. I played WoW for the raids, I enjoyed the hell out of them till they became a grind. Pretty good scripted fights with lots of variables and a team people doing a choreographed dance. Fun, yeah. But, it becomes repetative after the first few times, where as PVP is never repetitive.......... mostly. WoW has done a pretty good job at making PVP repetitive. :-| I didn't think it was possible, but they did. But, I didn't play for the PVP.
Like I said above, I a big big FPS player. But, you know the last game I beat on single player mode? Doom II on Sega Genesis x32
Like Trading Card Games? Click Here.
It can't be that valuable if you're playing MMOs.
ROFL
Sad but true.
endorphins
Whether one is physical and the other isn't is completely irrelevant. I play tennis 2X a week.
No it's really not. See the link I left in the quote above. I have played Tennis and it killed me. That is not an easy sport. lol
<snip>
If you think videogames are different from any other GAME, thats your problem.
Not at all. I am actually a pretty casual player. But, PVP games with harsh death penalties is probably one of the biggest adrenaline rushes you can get doing something that isn't going to potentially kill you.
I understand where PVEers are coming from, I really do. But, what alot of PVEers don't realize is that PVPers don't play to hurt people, they aren't fat 35yr old virgins sitting behind their computers...
There is an adrenaline rush for playing a PVP game with harsh death penalties, and that's why people play games like DFO and EVE.
It's not about the punishment, it's about the opposite.... NOBODY wants to be punished. But, being put in a penalty box is not a good reason for me to stay alive. Losing all my crap is.
Like Trading Card Games? Click Here.
Well in DF gear has durability and doesn't last long if you use it, you can go through it quite quickly. As for EVE items degrade very slowly by comparison, that's probably why they blow up to stimulate the market. It actually evens itself out, DFO items break quickly and EVE items don't but get destroyed on dieing.
So the gear does go away quickly in DFO, trust me.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Though, for the life of me, I don't understand why they just don't go for higher level mobs, which is effectively the same thing.
But about what I quoted, mobs are static. Even if they have extremely good AIs it's not even going to be even slightly comparable to a mentally handicapped person playing a character. I played WoW for the raids, I enjoyed the hell out of them till they became a grind. Pretty good scripted fights with lots of variables and a team people doing a choreographed dance. Fun, yeah. But, it becomes repetative after the first few times, where as PVP is never repetitive.......... mostly. WoW has done a pretty good job at making PVP repetitive. :-| I didn't think it was possible, but they did. But, I didn't play for the PVP.
Like I said above, I a big big FPS player. But, you know the last game I beat on single player mode? Doom II on Sega Genesis x32
OK, I get ya. But I don't see how that has anything to do with death penalties. Or how having stiffer ones would make "mentally handicapped" ai more challenging.
Why a death penalty? Spellborn doesn't have a death penalty but it will reward you if you stay alive. Each fight you get PeP and it is used to improve your pep rank( from 0 to 5) the higher the rank the better are the bonus. Every time you die you lose a rank and it sucks to pvp someone with rank 5 and you rank 0.
"you are like the world revenge on sarcasm, you know that?"
One of those great lines from The Secret World
Well in DF gear has durability and doesn't last long if you use it, you can go through it quite quickly. As for EVE items degrade very slowly by comparison, that's probably why they blow up to stimulate the market. It actually evens itself out, DFO items break quickly and EVE items don't but get destroyed on dieing.
So the gear does go away quickly in DFO, trust me.
OH I know it has duribility, sorry it was early when i first typed this.
What i was getting at is balance.
See the PKer in DF gets too much for the effort imo.
Wouldn't it be more realistic if several pieces of gear are damaged beyond repair after you ruthlessly nuke or stab someone through their armor?
Thats why i was saying it makes no sense.
Things need balance and while I do enjoy high risk pvp I also like to know that someone isnt getting overly rewarded for a kill.
Disregard this post if gear does break on death because last time i played it didnt.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
See with me all these board game and sports if I lose, i lose oh well. No reason to really try my hardest to win if im already losing because im not really losing anything. I can challenge the person again or start another game by myself depending which game it is. Now if there were some sort of consequence for losing the game then hell yeah im going to try my hardest to win because I don't want to suffer the consequence of losing.
Im really not a competitive person, I never really liked playing sports well besides Dagorhir and paintball. But in those there are penalties, you get hit it can possibly hurt and your dead so you have to sit out and wait for the match to be over which can end up lasting a while.
Actually, the pawn can become any piece, except a king or a pawn, and the piece does not have to be one that was taken. Therefore, you could actually have 2 queens...
I feel that some of the comparisons/analogies here, especially the ones to sports, are not completely accurate. I don't think anyone that is suggesting death penalties are needed would say that it's the equivalent to forcing yourself to sit around and do nothing for an hour after you lose a soccer game, or burn the ball and need to go and buy a new one. Maybe some people see it that way, and if so then they are indeed entitled to their opinion, I just personally do not agree with it. I'm not claiming that I am correct or that they are incorrect, just that our views are different.
Sports would not be my first choice to compare computer games to, but if I was going to try and make a comparison between soccer and an mmo then it might be something like this. Say for example that you attack something/someone in your mmo, and you fail to kill him, and there is no sort of penalty for dying whatsoever, then all that will happen is that you run back and try again, and again etc. until you finally kill him. To me that would be sort of like if in soccer when a player is awarded a penalty and they miss it then they get to re-take it until they finally score. Similarly when a team loses a match in soccer it's true that they don't sit around for an hour as punishment, but they also don't simply get to replay the other team again and again until they have won. That loss is recorded and is there for the remainder of the season, and it affects their final position in the table. In mmo terms that would be the same (in my opinion) as saying that if you die while on a quest then you fail that quest and are not ever allowed to do it again. There would also be only a limited number of quests and if you failed any (or a certain number) you would never be able to reach max level (similar to finishing top of the league in soccer).
I am of course not at all saying that in an MMO if you lose a fight then you should never be able to take on that character/player again, or that dying/failing a quest should mean that it's never re-playable. What I am however saying is that I think that there are severe penalties for losing/failing in soccer (and other sports) and that these are in fact more severe than any 'reasonable' MMO penalty would be.
I understand where PVEers are coming from, I really do. But, what alot of PVEers don't realize is that PVPers don't play to hurt people, they aren't fat 35yr old virgins sitting behind their computers...
There is an adrenaline rush for playing a PVP game with harsh death penalties, and that's why people play games like DFO and EVE.
It's not about the punishment, it's about the opposite.... NOBODY wants to be punished. But, being put in a penalty box is not a good reason for me to stay alive. Losing all my crap is.
Perhaps they aren't ALL trying to hurt people. But a great number of them are. That's why most ffa and faction PvP is a gankfest, as opposed to toe to toe epic battles the likes of which make folks like Metalhead drool.
I don't think it's a stretch to say that ganking is a big part of the culture of PvP. And since most games don't reward it, and in many cases give penalties, people still do it. What else could they be doing it for other than wanting to grief other players?
therefore, what greater joy could you give to gankers besides stacking huge death penalties on those people, most of whom would have the good sense to cancel their sub after the 3rd or 4th time suffering huge losses from death?
Well in DF gear has durability and doesn't last long if you use it, you can go through it quite quickly. As for EVE items degrade very slowly by comparison, that's probably why they blow up to stimulate the market. It actually evens itself out, DFO items break quickly and EVE items don't but get destroyed on dieing.
So the gear does go away quickly in DFO, trust me.
OH I know it has duribility, sorry it was early when i first typed this.
What i was getting at is balance.
See the PKer in DF gets too much for the effort imo.
Wouldn't it be more realistic if several pieces of gear are damaged beyond repair after you ruthlessly nuke or stab someone through their armor?
Thats why i was saying it makes no sense.
Things need balance and while I do enjoy high risk pvp I also like to know that someone isnt getting overly rewarded for a kill.
Disregard this post if gear does break on death because last time i played it didnt.
Gear doesn't break on death, but recieving too higher a reward is dependant on what the other guy has. It's a simpe risk vs reward, I see a naked noob logging and I kill him I get pretty much nothing of value for my effort despite it all dropping. I kill a noob fighting Goblins, I wouldn't even bother taking his gear. I see a higher level guy in some bloodcrafted armour with R65+ weapons, I'm gonna die most probably. A few friends and we can take him but the loot is split.
I understand you see it as the rewards are too high but let me put this to you. As a current DFO player and former EVE player (two years) I can say that in EVE the risk is far too low. In EVE it's just way too easy to get away from your enemy in PvP, you know who is in a system upon arrival, now there's warp to 0 and people only engage in a fight when they wish to 99% of the time or they're just dumb or newbies. I felt the risk was far too low in EVE and the rewards for actually growing a pair and risking a decent set up were too low for anyone to bother. Hence everyone flying about in 0.0 in gangs of cruisers despite being billionares.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
I understand where PVEers are coming from, I really do. But, what alot of PVEers don't realize is that PVPers don't play to hurt people, they aren't fat 35yr old virgins sitting behind their computers...
There is an adrenaline rush for playing a PVP game with harsh death penalties, and that's why people play games like DFO and EVE.
It's not about the punishment, it's about the opposite.... NOBODY wants to be punished. But, being put in a penalty box is not a good reason for me to stay alive. Losing all my crap is.
Perhaps they aren't ALL trying to hurt people. But a great number of them are. That's why most ffa and faction PvP is a gankfest, as opposed to toe to toe epic battles the likes of which make folks like Metalhead drool.
I don't think it's a stretch to say that ganking is a big part of the culture of PvP. And since most games don't reward it, and in many cases give penalties, people still do it. What else could they be doing it for other than wanting to grief other players?
therefore, what greater joy could you give to gankers besides stacking huge death penalties on those people, most of whom would have the good sense to cancel their sub after the 3rd or 4th time suffering huge losses from death?
Wtf dude! You call me out when in my very own post history I've said I was an anti-pker in UO and even against FFA full loot games without safe areas.
Seriously was there a need to use my name in your post?
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
ffs still so many carebears. why they didnt die yet
Playing: Rohan
Played (from best to worst): Shadowbane, Guild Wars, Shayia, Age of Conan, Warhammer, Runes of Magic, Rappelz, Archlord, Knight online, King of Kings, Kal online, Last chaos