If a Mind Game doesn't have a penalty, then it's pretty much worthless. Relate them to sports all you want, find me a popular mind game that people play ALOT that doesn't have a penalty of some sort (that's not time).
Chess.
Ha
Got me. I knew there was at least one, but I couldn't think of it.
But, in Chess..... you still lose your pieces! So, it's not completely w/o penalty for making a bad move. Much more relatable to losing XP or Gear than losing time or playing sports to get high on natural opiates.
Chess is also based on War, is it not? War has the ultimate penalties.
I would say losing pieces is like losing HP. When they are gone, you have lost. When HP goes to 0, you are dead. Then you start fresh, without any penalties except to hurt feelings and maybe a lesson learned. A game of chess is of course much longer than killing a mob, but at the end of both, you either won or lost. And since chess has been around for a few thousand years in one form or another, the general idea of fresh start after losing might not be too bad..
Really? I'd say chess is more like permadeath. Each piece is like a different class with different abilities and when one loses; it is dead forever - save for a pawn reaching the other side... Anyway; I think chess's death penalty is one of the harshest out there.
If a Mind Game doesn't have a penalty, then it's pretty much worthless. Relate them to sports all you want, find me a popular mind game that people play ALOT that doesn't have a penalty of some sort (that's not time).
Chess.
Ha
Got me. I knew there was at least one, but I couldn't think of it.
But, in Chess..... you still lose your pieces! So, it's not completely w/o penalty for making a bad move. Much more relatable to losing XP or Gear than losing time or playing sports to get high on natural opiates.
Chess is also based on War, is it not? War has the ultimate penalties.
I would say losing pieces is like losing HP. When they are gone, you have lost. When HP goes to 0, you are dead. Then you start fresh, without any penalties except to hurt feelings and maybe a lesson learned. A game of chess is of course much longer than killing a mob, but at the end of both, you either won or lost. And since chess has been around for a few thousand years in one form or another, the general idea of fresh start after losing might not be too bad..
Really? I'd say chess is more like permadeath. Each piece is like a different class with different abilities and when one loses; it is dead forever - save for a pawn reaching the other side... Anyway; I think chess's death penalty is one of the harshest out there.
If you only controlled one piece in Chess, and your one piece perma-died for the rest of the game, nobody would play Chess. Chess is played because you get all the pieces. Losing one piece isn't the end, and if you "die" you're free to immediately play a new game of it.
If you could ask the first pawn to die whether it's having fun, and the player themselve, I assure you there would be a vast discrepancy in how much fun each is having.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Gaming without a death penalty creates players who are unable to handle complex game content.
WoW - Very few guilds could do BWL40, AQ40, Naxx40. Why? Those players who reached 60 were horrible, that's why. They never learned how to play. Not only was there no death penalty, they solod their way to 60. They don't know how to play by the time they reach 60. Then you end up with guilds that don't know how to recruit good players, because a lot of newbies end up being level 60's.
Levels used to be used to determine player skill, but in games without any penalties, you can't have that anymore. Every newbie can easily get level 60. So good luck clearing endgame content with low quality players
EQ - People learn not to die, due to death penalties, nontrivial content, etc. Endgame PVE was actually difficult in EQ. EQ did not have to dumb down their content because the players were so bad like WoW had to.
It is enough of a penalty if you have to run back to where you were. Wouldn't work in WoW but I had no problem with the death penalty in DAoC.
Yeah, those 1 minute runs are rough. Not to mention you spawn in ghost form and have no trouble getting back to your "body". No penalty there.
And what makes PVP meaningful if people just keep coming back and dying? They don't care about exp loss, so what's to prevent the losers from coming back and annoying you?
In a PVP game, not having a death penalty means you can never win. They'll keep coming back. They don't have any incentive to leave you alone.
A penalty for failure is critical for MMO's to have immersion and for rewards to fully be appreciated.
Maybe, but immersion isn't the ultimate target upon which everyone should be designing games. The ultimate target is FUN. Immersion is only good when it provides fun. Don't get me wrong, i am all up for choices + consequences in RPG games. But we have to realize that MMOs are different. You can't save a game in a MMO. You don't have "lives" like the platform games, either.
Let's study a bit the case of a single player game - preferebly an RPG but an FPS isn't far either. You start fighting and something really wrong happens. Bad choice, bad luck, slow reactions, you end up dead. The game STOPS. You 're dead and that's final. GAME OVER mate get over it - start all over. Ah wait i have a savegame there! In fact it isn't even a real savegame but a quicksave i did just before that last battle. So let's press that quickload button. My raid disks start spinning a bit and with my uber fast CPU i get like 2 seconds reload time and voila. I am alive again. Without a scratch... Like nothing happened.
And everyone claims that this thing is immersive... And that MMOs aren't that immersive and can't be at all cause when you die it's unrealistic to tell a player to start over. So let's just accept that unrealistic situation and introduce a death penalty instead...[/sarcasm]
You see that MMOs are actually by design more immersive than single player games when it comes to death. Or maybe not more immersive but there is a real penalty into them when it comes to death. Even if you don't get your stats reduced, your gear trashed out, usually in the majority of MMOs you 'll be teleported back to some temple if you choose the automatic choice of a ressurect. Which means running back. That's a penalty already.
If you get ressurected by some player yes the penalty is smaller and that's how it ought to be.
Personally the only positive thing i have seen coming from death penalty is... socialization. Give a harsh death penalty to the ones that use the automatic option, but give a much lower penalty to the ones that seek people to help em and you 'll get a lot of people seeking for help. Which is really nice cause it helps socialization and the sense of community. That, provided your game world is actually shared, not instances like in Guild Wars / DDO. You see that it actually depends on other game elements of the MMO whether a harsh death penalty provides fun or the opposite. From the few MMOs i have played, i have seen it providing fun on Rubies of Eventide and Ryzom. It could be good on Anarchy Online as well if there was a ressurect nano (spell) in the game.
"Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."
On a similar note, there is this thread (and my reply to it) that might be of interest in further exploration into penalties and parallels in societal structures.
I would like you to share your opinions on that topic as well.
On a similar note, there is this thread (and my reply to it) that might be of interest in further exploration into penalties and parallels in societal structures.
I would like you to share your opinions on that topic as well.
Will do. I read the OP and yours but still need to hit up the wiki. Will respond when there's a lull in holiday activitoes. Merry Christmas, btw Plasuma!
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
EQ had good immersion because of the death penalty.
Whenever you died, you had to run back to your corpse without gear. You also lost exp. You basically had to drag your corpse to a cleric to get a resurrection, otherwise you would have lost an hour or so of grinding. At least that encourages players to socialize and makes certain classes very important.
In WoW, no death penalty. You keep dying, nothing matters. Run back in ghost form, play like shit again, it doesn't matter. Make the same idiotic mistakes and die again, doesn't matter, there is no loss.
Thats how their raids are too, complete newbies can get infinite retries on WoWs endgame content. I guess WOW players wouldn't be able to handle raids unless it had infinite retries
In trying to explain to some folks on this board the importance, in regards to immersion and risk and reward, for having a death (or failure) penalty, I think I have finally come up with an analogy: Imagine playing poker with play money. Doesn't really hurt when you lose, but doesn't really mean as much when you win. Now, imagine playing poker (small stakes) with real money. Losing sort of stings, but winning has a thrill; gets the adrenaline pumping. Such a game would draw a person in more than the former example. A penalty for failure is critical for MMO's to have immersion and for rewards to fully be appreciated.
Would be a good example except.. Not everyone likes to gamble.
In WoW, no death penalty. You keep dying, nothing matters. Run back in ghost form, play like shit again, it doesn't matter. Make the same idiotic mistakes and die again, doesn't matter, there is no loss.
Failure to advance is the opportunity cost of dying.
Skilled player = getting 3 new pieces of gear
Unskilled player = getting 0 new pieces of gear
So dying cost the bad player 3 pieces of gear.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Failure to advance is the opportunity cost of dying. Skilled player = getting 3 new pieces of gear
Unskilled player = getting 0 new pieces of gear So dying cost the bad player 3 pieces of gear.
You example only works if gear is guaranteed, aka the system is binary in terms of challenge:accomplishment.
It's really a question of where on a sliding scale one establishes the baseline.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
Failure to advance is the opportunity cost of dying. Skilled player = getting 3 new pieces of gear
Unskilled player = getting 0 new pieces of gear So dying cost the bad player 3 pieces of gear.
You example only works if gear is guaranteed, aka the system is binary in terms of challenge:accomplishment.
It's really a question of where on a sliding scale one establishes the baseline.
What do you mean? If a dungeon run gives me a 13% chance of getting an item, dying still costs me that 13% chance. The opportunity cost of what you miss out on always applies unless you get a reward for dying (which no game gives out.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
In WoW, no death penalty. You keep dying, nothing matters. Run back in ghost form, play like shit again, it doesn't matter. Make the same idiotic mistakes and die again, doesn't matter, there is no loss.
Failure to advance is the opportunity cost of dying.
Skilled player = getting 3 new pieces of gear
Unskilled player = getting 0 new pieces of gear
So dying cost the bad player 3 pieces of gear.
The unskilled player eventually gets the same gear through brute force, b/c the encounters are so trivial and dumbed down. If there was some kind of penalty, you would see larger gear distinctions between horrible players and good players, because the lousy players would get locked out of an encounter after 500 wipes on the same boss.
The unskilled player eventually gets the same gear through brute force, b/c the encounters are so trivial and dumbed down. If there was some kind of penalty, you would see larger gear distinctions between horrible players and good players, because the lousy players would get locked out of an encounter after 500 wipes on the same boss.
There's no "brute force", except in world PVE where you can zerg a boss. You either exhibit enough skill to beat the boss, or you don't. The only exception is if skilled/geared players carry you through a place.
If you want to discuss whether WOW provides the correct variety of difficult challenges, then that's fine. But Difficulty (the skill required to avoid failure) is a separate topic from Death Penalty (what happens if you fail.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
In WoW, no death penalty. You keep dying, nothing matters. Run back in ghost form, play like shit again, it doesn't matter. Make the same idiotic mistakes and die again, doesn't matter, there is no loss.
Failure to advance is the opportunity cost of dying.
Skilled player = getting 3 new pieces of gear
Unskilled player = getting 0 new pieces of gear
So dying cost the bad player 3 pieces of gear.
The unskilled player eventually gets the same gear through brute force, b/c the encounters are so trivial and dumbed down. If there was some kind of penalty, you would see larger gear distinctions between horrible players and good players, because the lousy players would get locked out of an encounter after 500 wipes on the same boss.
LOL .. what kind of stupid argument is that. Take sunwell in wow and try "brute-force" that. If a player is not skilled enough to kill a boss, there is no amount of "brute force" he can use to do so.
Yet still has all the challenge, and makes for a more enjoyable game at the end of the night for everyone. You do however, need to really stop trying to perpetuate that all MMO's lack risk and challenge. It is simply untrue.
Well, that's your opinion and there is no right or wrong about it. Everyone has a different idea of what is fun and WoW, as popular as it is, does not cater to all.
I think that whether or not a thing is challenging is a seperate argument.
I would compare the people who don't like death penalties to those who save every 5 minutes in a single player game in case something bad happens. Facing the consequences of thier choices and actions is not fun for them. So they reload. It has nothing to do with challenge, that combat that they reload could be challenging everytime they attempt it.
To me, that's not fun. It would be like playing a game of chess and then asking your opponent if it would be ok to go back to move number 30 where you made a mistake. It would be like a baseball team asking if the 9th inning could be replayed because things didn't go thier way.
I prefer the need to carefully consider my choices and actions, and if I choose wrong, then there is a price to be paid.
Comments to the sentence in red, in some casual gaming, during lunch, that happens a lot, and so long as I do not lose my shirt, I won't mind if you roll back and try again. No glory winning a chess game on the canteen tables.
Your overall views are very very true. If death penalty advocates says they want to suffer heavy penalties that is very respectable.
Trying to push the death penalty ==> excitement argument into some form of universal truth is absurd. I might want death penalty today, so I go play ladder FSP and shoot. If I lose I drop down the ladder. If I want perma death, I can go play diablo hard mode, I die, I reroll. If on another evening I want something casual, I can go play CoH or WoW. Even as a single person, I can dab in all kinds of game and enjoy each and every. There is no universal truth about what constitutes excitement for me, let alone a universal excitement generator for millions and billions of gamers.
FUN, is subjective, fun is what rules my mood this evening. Fun is what holds my interest as I grow old and prepare my way to my grave. Fun for me during undergrad days =/= fun for me today =/= fun for me as I prepare for retirement =/= fun for me when I fully retired.
Yeah, a horrible player shouldn't be able to level as fast as me in an MMORPG. But they would in WoW. Ok you lose out in a game against ppl you call horribly players, too bad my friend, you are worse than the terrible players I said they would normally take 3x as long to get to level 80 if WoW had appropriate penalties for playing poorly. Why? They beat you in an open game, so you blame the rules when you lose. Do you blame the society when you failed in your real life? Oh .. maybe you do.
And yes WoW does reward people with epics for "trying", although your idea of the word trying has more to do with showing up to the right zone. Lets give away all of the gear in the game to everyone. Once everyone has that gear though, no one is distinct. Whats the difference between all of the players when they are all wearing TIER 10 vs all players if they are not wearing any gear at all? None, they are relatively the same to other players. What is the difference if everybody has the gear or not? Nothing, to me. I play my game, I enjoy, I log out. I go back to RL. I do not come to message board and moan b/c I do not have any claims to exclusive gear for myself in a game.
WoW can't distinguish between players via gear or level, because the games all about hand me outs and freebies. WoW can't distinguish bletween players via gear, so? WoW does not need to distinguis people, it is a game, let the majority enjoy and that is it. Real pride and personal identity can be found in many aspects of life, your uniqueness and identity is found inside an electronic pixel called a charcter in a game? Oh great :-)
You're right, I can't be unique in WoW, even though I am better than other people, so there is no point in playing it. People should have to work for their gear, not get it for free like in WoW. It's pathetic Your whole purpose in gaming is to be unique in a game through gearing. That I already pointed out. You know nothing about the game, you care nothing about the game, all your moans your criticism are just smoke screen. Deep inside you are desperate trying to build a personal identity and take pride in being the one in the game with some kind of gear. Once you get it, the game should stop handling out that gear, and stop moving forward, that way you will forever be unique, and have tales to tell your grandchildren how great greatpa is.
What do we call people like you in real life? The phased out. Marginalised ex's.
Your education is old (gear). New techniques, new methods, new ideas pop up everyday. Hanging onto the old ways will mean you are out competed. Rambling here about how great your old WoW gear was is self pitying. Marching on the streets demanding a stop to social or economic or tech advancement is only self pitying. Keep up or stay out.
In trying to explain to some folks on this board the importance, in regards to immersion and risk and reward, for having a death (or failure) penalty, I think I have finally come up with an analogy: Imagine playing poker with play money. Doesn't really hurt when you lose, but doesn't really mean as much when you win. Now, imagine playing poker (small stakes) with real money. Losing sort of stings, but winning has a thrill; gets the adrenaline pumping. Such a game would draw a person in more than the former example. A penalty for failure is critical for MMO's to have immersion and for rewards to fully be appreciated.
People are attached to their pixels. You don't want people getting emo over 1's and 0's or you will never hear the end of it. Anything that would prolong the use of an attention span would not be good on subscription profits.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
I'd have to agree with one of the earlier posters. If a death penalty is so important. Why not give one to yourself? Why does the game have to do it for you? I hear so much talk about freedoms in game. Well you are free to give yourself whatever death penalty you need. Died? Delete your character. Forbid yourself from playing that character for x amount of days. Take part of the money you have on you now and destroy it. Take any items in your inventory and destroy them. Hell take the gear you have on now and destroy it. Stop blaming developers and other players for a lack of death penalty. If they want it in their game it will be there, if it isn't, then don't let that stop you from giving one to yourself.
It is not important for a single player to inforce a death penalty on themselfs, it is about making the community of the game better. Death penalties make communities better, you can look at games without death penalties and see the communities suffers without.
The community in EQ1 was one of the best I have ever been a part of and alot of that is due to the death penalty, because people knew that they would need help one day and would help the guy asking for help getting his corpse back.
You and the poster you are talking about are missing the point. The point is that a good death penalty in an MMORPG game makes the game better, makes the players better, makes the community better. its not about myself, its about the community. Its about making the players in that community help each other out to over come something that will "cost" you.
Makes the community better? Just what exactly are you basing this on? Sounds like an opinion laid out like a fact. Can you really prove what you just said? EQ1 community good, really? According to who? I played EQ from launch up until SoV. Came back for SoL left again before next expansion. I don't know what kind of "sunshine" memories you have of EQ, but mine definitely weren't as bright as you paint yours to be. EQ was filled more "elitism" then alot of the current crop of MMO's. Eve Online players don't hold a candle to the elitist attitudes that I saw go on, in the 3 servers I played on. Most of the most hated terms that we use in MMO's today came from EQ. (Scammers, Griefers, Ninja Looters, etc)
The community on my server for my 5+ years of EQ1 were great, anytime you needed help getting a corpse back or help finishing your epic quest or basicly anything you could always find people willing to help. Sure every community has its bad apples like "elitist" but for the most part the EQ community was very helpful and answered questions.
Yes it is my opionion that a good death penalty makes for a better community but that is all we have on these forums is our opionions.
My raiding guild would stop and help out players trying to finish epics on our way to our target, most of the time these players were not in our guild. We raided like a hardcore raiding guild but we helped others just as much. Why? because in EQ everyone had that one death that you could not get back to without help so we all understood that at some point we would be the ones needing the help.
Shit our guild leader and other guild leaders worked out who was raiding what and would help back flag and key each others players. Sure not all guilds would do this but for the most part that is how it worked on my server. (Quellious)
It is your opinion ... but then it has to be imposed on everyone to make a "better" community for you. How generous you are, we all need to follow you or not be a part of your "better" community.
With your abrasive and dictatorial attitude, I understand why you said "your" community is great. You need to impose your view about penalty on everyone in the server just to please you. Your kind of community is great for you. Go with them. The majority has abandoned you and your kind.
A nicer community I found in early days SWG, when everyone help out everybody else, by game mechanics. A nice community I found in the heydays of DAoC, a realm means something to those inside.
EQ? Everyone only care to find a way into a damn static spot called a camp and pull everything they find, and bicker to each other stealing mobs spawns between 2 camps. Oh really nice community. Your stories about your guild, yes go tell that to thousands who left EQ the very day SWG launches, the very day DAoC launches. The very day WoW launches, my guildmate and personal friend log back onto EQ to found that the starter town is very active, because people were waiting zealously to log onto WoW and EQ is the place to stop and talk as they wait on a queue. That, is the view of the majority of EQ players about what EQ is, a place to hang around when they cannot log onto WoW yet. Once WoW fixed the server queues, EQ is a complete ghost town, they all abandon your great community, you and your kind.
Nice I found games I do not need to worry about you and your kind, as I play to enjoy, not to tolerate presence of your kind and your air of artificial superiority.
Based simply on the state of the mmo's on the market and guess what you can do it yourself compare the number of players playing games with a harsh death penalty to those without. Games I would say have less than harsh penalties LOTRO,WOW,WAR and those with DF,EVE. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see which games are the most populous. I like everyone else on the internet do think I have a certain level of intelligence that is above average but I certainly don't think I know more about the mmo industry than those who design for it and I think they by there design decisions show what players are asking them for and when I say players are asking them for I mean the ones who are asking the most and not the loudest.
Well, it's not like there's much of a choice so I dont think that's quite fair. There is no real hardcore game out there at the moment. At least that I've heard about or tried. I thought VG would be closer than the others, but there was something about that game that didn't click.
Perhaps if we ever get a good game for the hardcore enthusiasts, we'll find out.
Hard to see such a project coming about in this economy though. You never know I suppose.
What about MO? I mean, the developer company seems to be coughing up blood and looks like it might die all the time, but if the game ever comes out in a playable state, it might seem like what alot of people have been waiting for.
Please be consistent. DO you treasure the views of a lot of people?
If so WoW wins.
If not you slap yourself in the face with what you write.
Make up your mind.
And also make up your statistics. You have perfect proof that "a lot" of people have been waiting for that game. A lot means you and what you see, sitting alone in the basement staring at the mirror.
Based simply on the state of the mmo's on the market and guess what you can do it yourself compare the number of players playing games with a harsh death penalty to those without. Games I would say have less than harsh penalties LOTRO,WOW,WAR and those with DF,EVE. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see which games are the most populous. I like everyone else on the internet do think I have a certain level of intelligence that is above average but I certainly don't think I know more about the mmo industry than those who design for it and I think they by there design decisions show what players are asking them for and when I say players are asking them for I mean the ones who are asking the most and not the loudest.
Well, it's not like there's much of a choice so I dont think that's quite fair. There is no real hardcore game out there at the moment. At least that I've heard about or tried. I thought VG would be closer than the others, but there was something about that game that didn't click.
Perhaps if we ever get a good game for the hardcore enthusiasts, we'll find out.
Hard to see such a project coming about in this economy though. You never know I suppose.
What about MO? I mean, the developer company seems to be coughing up blood and looks like it might die all the time, but if the game ever comes out in a playable state, it might seem like what alot of people have been waiting for.
Please be consistent. DO you treasure the views of a lot of people?
If so WoW wins.
If not you slap yourself in the face with what you write.
Make up your mind.
And also make up your statistics. You have perfect proof that "a lot" of people have been waiting for that game. A lot means you and what you see, sitting alone in the basement staring at the mirror.
Comments
Chess.
Ha
Got me. I knew there was at least one, but I couldn't think of it.
But, in Chess..... you still lose your pieces! So, it's not completely w/o penalty for making a bad move. Much more relatable to losing XP or Gear than losing time or playing sports to get high on natural opiates.
Chess is also based on War, is it not? War has the ultimate penalties.
I would say losing pieces is like losing HP. When they are gone, you have lost. When HP goes to 0, you are dead. Then you start fresh, without any penalties except to hurt feelings and maybe a lesson learned. A game of chess is of course much longer than killing a mob, but at the end of both, you either won or lost. And since chess has been around for a few thousand years in one form or another, the general idea of fresh start after losing might not be too bad..
Really? I'd say chess is more like permadeath. Each piece is like a different class with different abilities and when one loses; it is dead forever - save for a pawn reaching the other side... Anyway; I think chess's death penalty is one of the harshest out there.
Chess.
Ha
Got me. I knew there was at least one, but I couldn't think of it.
But, in Chess..... you still lose your pieces! So, it's not completely w/o penalty for making a bad move. Much more relatable to losing XP or Gear than losing time or playing sports to get high on natural opiates.
Chess is also based on War, is it not? War has the ultimate penalties.
I would say losing pieces is like losing HP. When they are gone, you have lost. When HP goes to 0, you are dead. Then you start fresh, without any penalties except to hurt feelings and maybe a lesson learned. A game of chess is of course much longer than killing a mob, but at the end of both, you either won or lost. And since chess has been around for a few thousand years in one form or another, the general idea of fresh start after losing might not be too bad..
Really? I'd say chess is more like permadeath. Each piece is like a different class with different abilities and when one loses; it is dead forever - save for a pawn reaching the other side... Anyway; I think chess's death penalty is one of the harshest out there.
If you only controlled one piece in Chess, and your one piece perma-died for the rest of the game, nobody would play Chess. Chess is played because you get all the pieces. Losing one piece isn't the end, and if you "die" you're free to immediately play a new game of it.
If you could ask the first pawn to die whether it's having fun, and the player themselve, I assure you there would be a vast discrepancy in how much fun each is having.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Gaming without a death penalty creates players who are unable to handle complex game content.
WoW - Very few guilds could do BWL40, AQ40, Naxx40. Why? Those players who reached 60 were horrible, that's why. They never learned how to play. Not only was there no death penalty, they solod their way to 60. They don't know how to play by the time they reach 60. Then you end up with guilds that don't know how to recruit good players, because a lot of newbies end up being level 60's.
Levels used to be used to determine player skill, but in games without any penalties, you can't have that anymore. Every newbie can easily get level 60. So good luck clearing endgame content with low quality players
EQ - People learn not to die, due to death penalties, nontrivial content, etc. Endgame PVE was actually difficult in EQ. EQ did not have to dumb down their content because the players were so bad like WoW had to.
It is enough of a penalty if you have to run back to where you were. Wouldn't work in WoW but I had no problem with the death penalty in DAoC.
Yeah, those 1 minute runs are rough. Not to mention you spawn in ghost form and have no trouble getting back to your "body". No penalty there.
And what makes PVP meaningful if people just keep coming back and dying? They don't care about exp loss, so what's to prevent the losers from coming back and annoying you?
In a PVP game, not having a death penalty means you can never win. They'll keep coming back. They don't have any incentive to leave you alone.
Maybe, but immersion isn't the ultimate target upon which everyone should be designing games. The ultimate target is FUN. Immersion is only good when it provides fun. Don't get me wrong, i am all up for choices + consequences in RPG games. But we have to realize that MMOs are different. You can't save a game in a MMO. You don't have "lives" like the platform games, either.
Let's study a bit the case of a single player game - preferebly an RPG but an FPS isn't far either. You start fighting and something really wrong happens. Bad choice, bad luck, slow reactions, you end up dead. The game STOPS. You 're dead and that's final. GAME OVER mate get over it - start all over. Ah wait i have a savegame there! In fact it isn't even a real savegame but a quicksave i did just before that last battle. So let's press that quickload button. My raid disks start spinning a bit and with my uber fast CPU i get like 2 seconds reload time and voila. I am alive again. Without a scratch... Like nothing happened.
And everyone claims that this thing is immersive... And that MMOs aren't that immersive and can't be at all cause when you die it's unrealistic to tell a player to start over. So let's just accept that unrealistic situation and introduce a death penalty instead...[/sarcasm]
You see that MMOs are actually by design more immersive than single player games when it comes to death. Or maybe not more immersive but there is a real penalty into them when it comes to death. Even if you don't get your stats reduced, your gear trashed out, usually in the majority of MMOs you 'll be teleported back to some temple if you choose the automatic choice of a ressurect. Which means running back. That's a penalty already.
If you get ressurected by some player yes the penalty is smaller and that's how it ought to be.
Personally the only positive thing i have seen coming from death penalty is... socialization. Give a harsh death penalty to the ones that use the automatic option, but give a much lower penalty to the ones that seek people to help em and you 'll get a lot of people seeking for help. Which is really nice cause it helps socialization and the sense of community. That, provided your game world is actually shared, not instances like in Guild Wars / DDO. You see that it actually depends on other game elements of the MMO whether a harsh death penalty provides fun or the opposite. From the few MMOs i have played, i have seen it providing fun on Rubies of Eventide and Ryzom. It could be good on Anarchy Online as well if there was a ressurect nano (spell) in the game.
"Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."
That was refreshing, I appreciate your reply.
On a similar note, there is this thread (and my reply to it) that might be of interest in further exploration into penalties and parallels in societal structures.
I would like you to share your opinions on that topic as well.
That was refreshing, I appreciate your reply.
On a similar note, there is this thread (and my reply to it) that might be of interest in further exploration into penalties and parallels in societal structures.
I would like you to share your opinions on that topic as well.
Will do. I read the OP and yours but still need to hit up the wiki. Will respond when there's a lull in holiday activitoes. Merry Christmas, btw Plasuma!
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
And to you as well!
EQ had good immersion because of the death penalty.
Whenever you died, you had to run back to your corpse without gear. You also lost exp. You basically had to drag your corpse to a cleric to get a resurrection, otherwise you would have lost an hour or so of grinding. At least that encourages players to socialize and makes certain classes very important.
In WoW, no death penalty. You keep dying, nothing matters. Run back in ghost form, play like shit again, it doesn't matter. Make the same idiotic mistakes and die again, doesn't matter, there is no loss.
Thats how their raids are too, complete newbies can get infinite retries on WoWs endgame content. I guess WOW players wouldn't be able to handle raids unless it had infinite retries
Would be a good example except.. Not everyone likes to gamble.
Failure to advance is the opportunity cost of dying.
Skilled player = getting 3 new pieces of gear
Unskilled player = getting 0 new pieces of gear
So dying cost the bad player 3 pieces of gear.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You example only works if gear is guaranteed, aka the system is binary in terms of challenge:accomplishment.
It's really a question of where on a sliding scale one establishes the baseline.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
You example only works if gear is guaranteed, aka the system is binary in terms of challenge:accomplishment.
It's really a question of where on a sliding scale one establishes the baseline.
What do you mean? If a dungeon run gives me a 13% chance of getting an item, dying still costs me that 13% chance. The opportunity cost of what you miss out on always applies unless you get a reward for dying (which no game gives out.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Failure to advance is the opportunity cost of dying.
Skilled player = getting 3 new pieces of gear
Unskilled player = getting 0 new pieces of gear
So dying cost the bad player 3 pieces of gear.
The unskilled player eventually gets the same gear through brute force, b/c the encounters are so trivial and dumbed down. If there was some kind of penalty, you would see larger gear distinctions between horrible players and good players, because the lousy players would get locked out of an encounter after 500 wipes on the same boss.
There's no "brute force", except in world PVE where you can zerg a boss. You either exhibit enough skill to beat the boss, or you don't. The only exception is if skilled/geared players carry you through a place.
If you want to discuss whether WOW provides the correct variety of difficult challenges, then that's fine. But Difficulty (the skill required to avoid failure) is a separate topic from Death Penalty (what happens if you fail.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Failure to advance is the opportunity cost of dying.
Skilled player = getting 3 new pieces of gear
Unskilled player = getting 0 new pieces of gear
So dying cost the bad player 3 pieces of gear.
The unskilled player eventually gets the same gear through brute force, b/c the encounters are so trivial and dumbed down. If there was some kind of penalty, you would see larger gear distinctions between horrible players and good players, because the lousy players would get locked out of an encounter after 500 wipes on the same boss.
LOL .. what kind of stupid argument is that. Take sunwell in wow and try "brute-force" that. If a player is not skilled enough to kill a boss, there is no amount of "brute force" he can use to do so.
It has NOTHING to do with death penalty.
Well, that's your opinion and there is no right or wrong about it. Everyone has a different idea of what is fun and WoW, as popular as it is, does not cater to all.
I think that whether or not a thing is challenging is a seperate argument.
I would compare the people who don't like death penalties to those who save every 5 minutes in a single player game in case something bad happens. Facing the consequences of thier choices and actions is not fun for them. So they reload. It has nothing to do with challenge, that combat that they reload could be challenging everytime they attempt it.
To me, that's not fun. It would be like playing a game of chess and then asking your opponent if it would be ok to go back to move number 30 where you made a mistake. It would be like a baseball team asking if the 9th inning could be replayed because things didn't go thier way.
I prefer the need to carefully consider my choices and actions, and if I choose wrong, then there is a price to be paid.
Comments to the sentence in red, in some casual gaming, during lunch, that happens a lot, and so long as I do not lose my shirt, I won't mind if you roll back and try again. No glory winning a chess game on the canteen tables.
Your overall views are very very true. If death penalty advocates says they want to suffer heavy penalties that is very respectable.
Trying to push the death penalty ==> excitement argument into some form of universal truth is absurd. I might want death penalty today, so I go play ladder FSP and shoot. If I lose I drop down the ladder. If I want perma death, I can go play diablo hard mode, I die, I reroll. If on another evening I want something casual, I can go play CoH or WoW. Even as a single person, I can dab in all kinds of game and enjoy each and every. There is no universal truth about what constitutes excitement for me, let alone a universal excitement generator for millions and billions of gamers.
FUN, is subjective, fun is what rules my mood this evening. Fun is what holds my interest as I grow old and prepare my way to my grave. Fun for me during undergrad days =/= fun for me today =/= fun for me as I prepare for retirement =/= fun for me when I fully retired.
Yeah, a horrible player shouldn't be able to level as fast as me in an MMORPG. But they would in WoW. Ok you lose out in a game against ppl you call horribly players, too bad my friend, you are worse than the terrible players I said they would normally take 3x as long to get to level 80 if WoW had appropriate penalties for playing poorly. Why? They beat you in an open game, so you blame the rules when you lose. Do you blame the society when you failed in your real life? Oh .. maybe you do.
And yes WoW does reward people with epics for "trying", although your idea of the word trying has more to do with showing up to the right zone. Lets give away all of the gear in the game to everyone. Once everyone has that gear though, no one is distinct. Whats the difference between all of the players when they are all wearing TIER 10 vs all players if they are not wearing any gear at all? None, they are relatively the same to other players. What is the difference if everybody has the gear or not? Nothing, to me. I play my game, I enjoy, I log out. I go back to RL. I do not come to message board and moan b/c I do not have any claims to exclusive gear for myself in a game.
WoW can't distinguish between players via gear or level, because the games all about hand me outs and freebies. WoW can't distinguish bletween players via gear, so? WoW does not need to distinguis people, it is a game, let the majority enjoy and that is it. Real pride and personal identity can be found in many aspects of life, your uniqueness and identity is found inside an electronic pixel called a charcter in a game? Oh great :-)
You're right, I can't be unique in WoW, even though I am better than other people, so there is no point in playing it. People should have to work for their gear, not get it for free like in WoW. It's pathetic Your whole purpose in gaming is to be unique in a game through gearing. That I already pointed out. You know nothing about the game, you care nothing about the game, all your moans your criticism are just smoke screen. Deep inside you are desperate trying to build a personal identity and take pride in being the one in the game with some kind of gear. Once you get it, the game should stop handling out that gear, and stop moving forward, that way you will forever be unique, and have tales to tell your grandchildren how great greatpa is.
What do we call people like you in real life? The phased out. Marginalised ex's.
Your education is old (gear). New techniques, new methods, new ideas pop up everyday. Hanging onto the old ways will mean you are out competed. Rambling here about how great your old WoW gear was is self pitying. Marching on the streets demanding a stop to social or economic or tech advancement is only self pitying. Keep up or stay out.
People are attached to their pixels. You don't want people getting emo over 1's and 0's or you will never hear the end of it. Anything that would prolong the use of an attention span would not be good on subscription profits.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
It is not important for a single player to inforce a death penalty on themselfs, it is about making the community of the game better. Death penalties make communities better, you can look at games without death penalties and see the communities suffers without.
The community in EQ1 was one of the best I have ever been a part of and alot of that is due to the death penalty, because people knew that they would need help one day and would help the guy asking for help getting his corpse back.
You and the poster you are talking about are missing the point. The point is that a good death penalty in an MMORPG game makes the game better, makes the players better, makes the community better. its not about myself, its about the community. Its about making the players in that community help each other out to over come something that will "cost" you.
Makes the community better? Just what exactly are you basing this on? Sounds like an opinion laid out like a fact. Can you really prove what you just said? EQ1 community good, really? According to who? I played EQ from launch up until SoV. Came back for SoL left again before next expansion. I don't know what kind of "sunshine" memories you have of EQ, but mine definitely weren't as bright as you paint yours to be. EQ was filled more "elitism" then alot of the current crop of MMO's. Eve Online players don't hold a candle to the elitist attitudes that I saw go on, in the 3 servers I played on. Most of the most hated terms that we use in MMO's today came from EQ. (Scammers, Griefers, Ninja Looters, etc)
The community on my server for my 5+ years of EQ1 were great, anytime you needed help getting a corpse back or help finishing your epic quest or basicly anything you could always find people willing to help. Sure every community has its bad apples like "elitist" but for the most part the EQ community was very helpful and answered questions.
Yes it is my opionion that a good death penalty makes for a better community but that is all we have on these forums is our opionions.
My raiding guild would stop and help out players trying to finish epics on our way to our target, most of the time these players were not in our guild. We raided like a hardcore raiding guild but we helped others just as much. Why? because in EQ everyone had that one death that you could not get back to without help so we all understood that at some point we would be the ones needing the help.
Shit our guild leader and other guild leaders worked out who was raiding what and would help back flag and key each others players. Sure not all guilds would do this but for the most part that is how it worked on my server. (Quellious)
It is your opinion ... but then it has to be imposed on everyone to make a "better" community for you. How generous you are, we all need to follow you or not be a part of your "better" community.
With your abrasive and dictatorial attitude, I understand why you said "your" community is great. You need to impose your view about penalty on everyone in the server just to please you. Your kind of community is great for you. Go with them. The majority has abandoned you and your kind.
A nicer community I found in early days SWG, when everyone help out everybody else, by game mechanics. A nice community I found in the heydays of DAoC, a realm means something to those inside.
EQ? Everyone only care to find a way into a damn static spot called a camp and pull everything they find, and bicker to each other stealing mobs spawns between 2 camps. Oh really nice community. Your stories about your guild, yes go tell that to thousands who left EQ the very day SWG launches, the very day DAoC launches. The very day WoW launches, my guildmate and personal friend log back onto EQ to found that the starter town is very active, because people were waiting zealously to log onto WoW and EQ is the place to stop and talk as they wait on a queue. That, is the view of the majority of EQ players about what EQ is, a place to hang around when they cannot log onto WoW yet. Once WoW fixed the server queues, EQ is a complete ghost town, they all abandon your great community, you and your kind.
Nice I found games I do not need to worry about you and your kind, as I play to enjoy, not to tolerate presence of your kind and your air of artificial superiority.
Well, it's not like there's much of a choice so I dont think that's quite fair. There is no real hardcore game out there at the moment. At least that I've heard about or tried. I thought VG would be closer than the others, but there was something about that game that didn't click.
Perhaps if we ever get a good game for the hardcore enthusiasts, we'll find out.
Hard to see such a project coming about in this economy though. You never know I suppose.
What about MO? I mean, the developer company seems to be coughing up blood and looks like it might die all the time, but if the game ever comes out in a playable state, it might seem like what alot of people have been waiting for.
Please be consistent. DO you treasure the views of a lot of people?
If so WoW wins.
If not you slap yourself in the face with what you write.
Make up your mind.
And also make up your statistics. You have perfect proof that "a lot" of people have been waiting for that game. A lot means you and what you see, sitting alone in the basement staring at the mirror.
Well, it's not like there's much of a choice so I dont think that's quite fair. There is no real hardcore game out there at the moment. At least that I've heard about or tried. I thought VG would be closer than the others, but there was something about that game that didn't click.
Perhaps if we ever get a good game for the hardcore enthusiasts, we'll find out.
Hard to see such a project coming about in this economy though. You never know I suppose.
What about MO? I mean, the developer company seems to be coughing up blood and looks like it might die all the time, but if the game ever comes out in a playable state, it might seem like what alot of people have been waiting for.
Please be consistent. DO you treasure the views of a lot of people?
If so WoW wins.
If not you slap yourself in the face with what you write.
Make up your mind.
And also make up your statistics. You have perfect proof that "a lot" of people have been waiting for that game. A lot means you and what you see, sitting alone in the basement staring at the mirror.
Haha OWNED!!!!!