"Punishment has nothing to do with embracing mindsets of low self esteem. Punishment when properly used promotes discipline. Discipline generates focus. Focus allows one to succeed. Success brings the thrill. There's an easily traced behavior path as an example.. Would you be so bold as to suggest the military of this nation (or any nation for that matter) is sado? Expand your view and you should realize quickly that it was very compartmentalized." Your hypocritical... People, these are games. Games are played for fun. One's opinion of fun varies from person to person. Some people like Cleveland Steamers. The majority do not. So in conclusion, if you like being shat on... fine, just stop trying to shit on everyone else and tell people they should like it.
*sigh*. I'm feeding a troll...
Your post does nothing towards discussing the OP's premise nor provides a counter-argument. It's opinion supported by opinion.
Lansid has a point. Our lives are normally dictated by discipline and focus, as that is what is required of us in our day jobs.
In play, such things are not and should not be required to gain fulfillment.
What external discipline must an artist be restricted by to have fun?
Yes, losing sucks. I hate losing or dying or having to remake gear after being looted. But without those types of penalties, winning is about meaningless to me. I like to play games that punishes me for making bad decisions and even just plain ole bad luck.
In trying to explain to some folks on this board the importance, in regards to immersion and risk and reward, for having a death (or failure) penalty, I think I have finally come up with an analogy: Imagine playing poker with play money. Doesn't really hurt when you lose, but doesn't really mean as much when you win. Now, imagine playing poker (small stakes) with real money. Losing sort of stings, but winning has a thrill; gets the adrenaline pumping. Such a game would draw a person in more than the former example. A penalty for failure is critical for MMO's to have immersion and for rewards to fully be appreciated.
I like your thinking. Its a moderate penalty. As in playing poker with $1,000,000 hurts and it way to extreme, but with just a little stake it isnt to bad but enough to make you want to avoid it.
With that said, Whats the right balance it not to little but not to much?
I say when you die you keep your armour but loose a little exp. You must run back to your corpse and get a rez to get the exp you lost back. If you die in a instance, then your corpse appears in a graveyard outside of the instance.
People play video games to enjoy and relax. Death penalty is nothing more then frustration. Moreover, from business point of view its a bad idea. People who want perma death and other harsh penalities are in minority.
MMORPG´s are lightyear behind MMO FPS RPG death penalty real loot full loot and and and gaming.
Shooter games have full loot, yup. But how much does death sting? Not at all, in fact it happens so much, you don't even feel it.
And how many people do you see playing xlfrag as compared to, say, TF2?
MMORPGs try to add depth to the game by making your character's equipment valuable. Everything else is mostly worthless, including the player, because a bot can play the character better than an actual human being.
That's really the difference between the genres. One requires some degree of human ingenuity to achieve victory, while the other does not - and in fact would benefit everyone more if a robot was playing instead.
This is why MMORPGs are letting up on the death penalty: you shouldn't punish players for not being as good as robots.
ok answer comes here (5 point in talent tree,holy priest of kindness) i need to paste it for you it seems
"XLFrag is a new way of skill-gaming where you can play Counter Strike 1.6 against other players for real money in real time!."
im speechless but anyways,check links next time
I did check the links, however it mentioned only Counter-Strike, so I used another game that was consequently not Counter-Strike as an example. So, to reiterate: how many people play the XLFrag-enhanced Counter-Strike as opposed to the other vastly more popular games it does not support?
Also, thank you kindly for not commenting on the remainder of my post, that being the most important point I raised.
You should re-spec out of the priest, I think. Art thou too holy for logic?
Like I said:MMORPG´s are lightyear behind..
for example you CANT use XLFrag on supercarebear PvP game Darkfall for example because of few reasons
a.theres no rules and im not going to teach you how MMO games work
c.to make it simple ,in real life we have laws
d.theres no laws for murderer in MMORPG´s for example ,nothing,nada,they are trying but none is working.
thats why these so called hardcore PvP rpg games fails so badly because those are actually extreme carebear games really.
I cant believe that you are asking this.but atleast question is easy
yes.ok?
Yes because its amazing that you want to play a game which resembles the real life so i had to ask the question. Games are supposed to be fun and relaxing experience away from troubles of daily life, if i want something that resembles real life why the hell would i want to play a game?
I cant believe that you are asking this.but atleast question is easy
yes.ok?
Yes because its amazing that you want to play a game which resembles the real life so i had to ask the question. Games are supposed to be fun and relaxing experience away from troubles of daily life, if i want something that resembles real life why the hell would i want to play a game?
In trying to explain to some folks on this board the importance, in regards to immersion and risk and reward, for having a death (or failure) penalty, I think I have finally come up with an analogy: Imagine playing poker with play money. Doesn't really hurt when you lose, but doesn't really mean as much when you win. Now, imagine playing poker (small stakes) with real money. Losing sort of stings, but winning has a thrill; gets the adrenaline pumping. Such a game would draw a person in more than the former example. A penalty for failure is critical for MMO's to have immersion and for rewards to fully be appreciated.
You feel the need to be kicked in the nuts to realise you failed? No, I don't I set myself upon a target, I failed, I know. No need additional artifical kicking in the nuts.
By your analogy, students who failed their english exam should have their arms chopped off. Is that what you are pretending to say?
cool to know i like to play games which really works.
Games only "work" if you have fun playing 'em.
That's why they're called games.
ahha ,thanks for the info.
Chess is a game for you then maybe,we start a match ,and your move,you kick table and take mongo stance and scream DIRGE,and wtfpwn,and you are really having "fun".
cool to know i like to play games which really works.
Games only "work" if you have fun playing 'em.
That's why they're called games.
ahha ,thanks for the info.
Chess is a game for you then maybe,we start a match ,and your move,you kick table and take mongo stance and scream DIRGE,and wtfpwn,and you are really having "fun".
to me thats not how it should been played.
no
i like to play games which really works.
Ah, this is the part where you insult me because I'm a WoW player, therefore proving how "cool" you are. Gotcha. A bit predictable, but it's a weak attempt so I'll let it slide.
Chess is a game about strategy and forward planning. The people who play it enjoy strategy and forward planning, so yes .. Chess is as much about "fun" as any other game. Just a different sort of fun for a specialised audience.
When your game consists of a flat board and 32 bits of carved wood, it ain't difficult to cater to a specialised audience. When you're talking about MMOs that cost $100m or more, you're on something of a different level, ain'tcha.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
cool to know i like to play games which really works.
Games only "work" if you have fun playing 'em.
That's why they're called games.
ahha ,thanks for the info.
Chess is a game for you then maybe,we start a match ,and your move,you kick table and take mongo stance and scream DIRGE,and wtfpwn,and you are really having "fun".
to me thats not how it should been played.
no
i like to play games which really works.
Ah, this is the part where you insult me because I'm a WoW player, therefore proving how "cool" you are. Gotcha. A bit predictable, but it's a weak attempt so I'll let it slide.
Chess is a game about strategy and forward planning. The people who play it enjoy strategy and forward planning, so yes .. Chess is as much about "fun" as any other game. Just a different sort of fun for a specialised audience.
When your game consists of a flat board and 32 bits of carved wood, it ain't difficult to cater to a specialised audience. When you're talking about MMOs that cost $100m or more, you're on something of a different level, ain'tcha.
no,i didnt mean anything about wow whatsoever.
back to the point ,in Chess your move and then its opponents turn and so on.simple and works perfectly
when we are talking about MMOs ,lemme copy paste d.theres no laws for murderer in MMORPG´s for example,nothing,nada,they are trying but none is working.
Seems some people play games like a gambler gambles, some other play games like an athlete competes. 2 different things. One relies on chance or luck to win, other uses talent. Where you use your god given talents and compete against others loosing is enough pentaly because the reward is the win. Anything else is a waste of time for both parties. ie sport. When youre gambling, or farming then dieing doest mean anything, loosing stuff does so avoiding losses and getting gains is the game there. Basically depends on your personallity type and what the game caters too. But one things for sure, you cant mix both together, have to pick one or the other. Like playing Esports with death penalties doesnt make sense, just like gambling without any losses doesnt make any sense either.
Lansid has a point. Our lives are normally dictated by discipline and focus, as that is what is required of us in our day jobs.
In play, such things are not and should not be required to gain fulfillment.
What external discipline must an artist be restricted by to have fun? None, sir.
So the lessons we learn in life, while being *mandated* in a work environment are seemingly *not applied* in a non-work environment? Artists require discipline, just as casual activities do. Do artists not invest hours, days, months of their lives refining pencil strokes and conceptual thinking? You paint it to be prettier but the underlying essence remains. Refocus your logical scope.
The difference is a choice one makes rather than being mandated via a job discription or work environment. Fulfillment requires personal investment- you can't have it any other way.
Relaxation cannot exist without exertion. Ever get tired of being lazy? How does one relax from relaxation? It doesn't check out.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
thats why these so called hardcore PvP rpg games fails so badly because those are actually extreme carebear games really.
No. Actually it's a lot simpler than that.
Gameplay Patterns:
League of Legends -> Launch game, play, have fun.
Modern Warfare 2 -> Launch game, play, have fun.
WOW (pre-endgame) -> Launch game, play, have fun.
WOW (endgame dungeons) -> Launch game, wait a bit to find a group, play, have fun. (although this has presumably been changed to Lauch, play, have fun with that last patch.)
WOW (endgame raiding) -> Launch game, wait for pre-scheduled raid times, play, have fun.
Darkfall (crafting) -> Launch game, is it off-hours? Yes: Gather/craft. No: Inefficiently take frequent breaks in order to secure gathered resources.
Darkfall (in general) -> Launch game, is your city under attack? Yes: do you outnumber the enemy? no: you can't play, sorry. yes: play, have fun. City not under attack: play, have fun.
Darkfall (PVP) -> Launch game, do you have more hours invested than potential foes? No: train with boring repetitive PVE, or Zerg. Yes: play, have fun.
Really this only hits on the barest minimum of the obstacles to fun in Darkfall-like games. There are so many situations in Darkfall where I'm like "Well there's no chance of victory by staying logged in, so the only winning move is to stop playing for a bit."
EVE was quite similar, with my corporation (EVE University) having prolonged lockdowns while at war, which was basically: Launch game, is the corp at war? Yes: play, have fun. No: you can't play, sorry.
This is a direct result of the types of gameplay these games offer. In general players play games for fun, so games where fun is not realiably had tend to be less popular. And that is the much bigger reason "hardcore PVP" MMORPGs fail (though "hardcore PVP" to me are games more like MW2 and LOL, where player skill dictates victory...not non-skill factors like Time Investment.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Rofl! Nice! Albeit I'm sure the PGA comment should include T.W. in today's media... and sometimes I think we *all* wish there were death penalties for select athletes.... my gawsh if T.O. could ever shut up or just diaf!
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
Comments
*sigh*. I'm feeding a troll...
Your post does nothing towards discussing the OP's premise nor provides a counter-argument. It's opinion supported by opinion.
Lansid has a point. Our lives are normally dictated by discipline and focus, as that is what is required of us in our day jobs.
In play, such things are not and should not be required to gain fulfillment.
What external discipline must an artist be restricted by to have fun?
None, sir.
Yes, losing sucks. I hate losing or dying or having to remake gear after being looted. But without those types of penalties, winning is about meaningless to me. I like to play games that punishes me for making bad decisions and even just plain ole bad luck.
But..its not for everyone, and I understand that.
I like your thinking. Its a moderate penalty. As in playing poker with $1,000,000 hurts and it way to extreme, but with just a little stake it isnt to bad but enough to make you want to avoid it.
With that said, Whats the right balance it not to little but not to much?
I say when you die you keep your armour but loose a little exp. You must run back to your corpse and get a rez to get the exp you lost back. If you die in a instance, then your corpse appears in a graveyard outside of the instance.
People play video games to enjoy and relax. Death penalty is nothing more then frustration. Moreover, from business point of view its a bad idea. People who want perma death and other harsh penalities are in minority.
Then Even less people would playy World PvP.
Damn, just kill the genre people.
http://www.xlfrag.com/
MMORPG´s are lightyear behind MMO FPS RPG death penalty real loot full loot and and and gaming.
Shooter games have full loot, yup. But how much does death sting? Not at all, in fact it happens so much, you don't even feel it.
And how many people do you see playing xlfrag as compared to, say, TF2?
MMORPGs try to add depth to the game by making your character's equipment valuable. Everything else is mostly worthless, including the player, because a bot can play the character better than an actual human being.
That's really the difference between the genres. One requires some degree of human ingenuity to achieve victory, while the other does not - and in fact would benefit everyone more if a robot was playing instead.
This is why MMORPGs are letting up on the death penalty: you shouldn't punish players for not being as good as robots.
ok answer comes here (5 point in talent tree,holy priest of kindness) i need to paste it for you it seems
"XLFrag is a new way of skill-gaming where you can play Counter Strike 1.6 against other players for real money in real time!."
im speechless but anyways,check links next time
I did check the links, however it mentioned only Counter-Strike, so I used another game that was consequently not Counter-Strike as an example. So, to reiterate: how many people play the XLFrag-enhanced Counter-Strike as opposed to the other vastly more popular games it does not support?
Also, thank you kindly for not commenting on the remainder of my post, that being the most important point I raised.
You should re-spec out of the priest, I think. Art thou too holy for logic?
Like I said:MMORPG´s are lightyear behind..
for example you CANT use XLFrag on supercarebear PvP game Darkfall for example because of few reasons
a.theres no rules and im not going to teach you how MMO games work
c.to make it simple ,in real life we have laws
d.theres no laws for murderer in MMORPG´s for example ,nothing,nada,they are trying but none is working.
thats why these so called hardcore PvP rpg games fails so badly because those are actually extreme carebear games really.
Generation P
Comparing real life to MMO really? ok
I cant believe that you are asking this.but atleast question is easy
yes.ok?
Generation P
I cant believe that you are asking this.but atleast question is easy
yes.ok?
Yes because its amazing that you want to play a game which resembles the real life so i had to ask the question. Games are supposed to be fun and relaxing experience away from troubles of daily life, if i want something that resembles real life why the hell would i want to play a game?
I cant believe that you are asking this.but atleast question is easy
yes.ok?
Yes because its amazing that you want to play a game which resembles the real life so i had to ask the question. Games are supposed to be fun and relaxing experience away from troubles of daily life, if i want something that resembles real life why the hell would i want to play a game?
cool to know
i like to play games which really works.
Generation P
Games only "work" if you have fun playing 'em.
That's why they're called games.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
You feel the need to be kicked in the nuts to realise you failed? No, I don't I set myself upon a target, I failed, I know. No need additional artifical kicking in the nuts.
By your analogy, students who failed their english exam should have their arms chopped off. Is that what you are pretending to say?
Games only "work" if you have fun playing 'em.
That's why they're called games.
ahha ,thanks for the info.
Chess is a game for you then maybe,we start a match ,and your move,you kick table and take mongo stance and scream DIRGE,and wtfpwn,and you are really having "fun".
to me thats not how it should been played.
no
i like to play games which really works.
Generation P
This is basically just saying "no pain, no gain".
Texas Hold-'Em Poker is quite boring.
Games only "work" if you have fun playing 'em.
That's why they're called games.
ahha ,thanks for the info.
Chess is a game for you then maybe,we start a match ,and your move,you kick table and take mongo stance and scream DIRGE,and wtfpwn,and you are really having "fun".
to me thats not how it should been played.
no
i like to play games which really works.
Ah, this is the part where you insult me because I'm a WoW player, therefore proving how "cool" you are. Gotcha. A bit predictable, but it's a weak attempt so I'll let it slide.
Chess is a game about strategy and forward planning. The people who play it enjoy strategy and forward planning, so yes .. Chess is as much about "fun" as any other game. Just a different sort of fun for a specialised audience.
When your game consists of a flat board and 32 bits of carved wood, it ain't difficult to cater to a specialised audience. When you're talking about MMOs that cost $100m or more, you're on something of a different level, ain'tcha.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Games only "work" if you have fun playing 'em.
That's why they're called games.
ahha ,thanks for the info.
Chess is a game for you then maybe,we start a match ,and your move,you kick table and take mongo stance and scream DIRGE,and wtfpwn,and you are really having "fun".
to me thats not how it should been played.
no
i like to play games which really works.
Ah, this is the part where you insult me because I'm a WoW player, therefore proving how "cool" you are. Gotcha. A bit predictable, but it's a weak attempt so I'll let it slide.
Chess is a game about strategy and forward planning. The people who play it enjoy strategy and forward planning, so yes .. Chess is as much about "fun" as any other game. Just a different sort of fun for a specialised audience.
When your game consists of a flat board and 32 bits of carved wood, it ain't difficult to cater to a specialised audience. When you're talking about MMOs that cost $100m or more, you're on something of a different level, ain'tcha.
no,i didnt mean anything about wow whatsoever.
back to the point ,in Chess your move and then its opponents turn and so on.simple and works perfectly
when we are talking about MMOs ,lemme copy paste d.theres no laws for murderer in MMORPG´s for example,nothing,nada,they are trying but none is working.
Generation P
There's no laws for PKing?
WELL DUH, OF COURSE THERE ISN'T.
and copypaste
thats why these so called hardcore PvP rpg games fails so badly because those are actually extreme carebear games really.
Generation P
And where's your proof?
Seems some people play games like a gambler gambles, some other play games like an athlete competes. 2 different things. One relies on chance or luck to win, other uses talent. Where you use your god given talents and compete against others loosing is enough pentaly because the reward is the win. Anything else is a waste of time for both parties. ie sport. When youre gambling, or farming then dieing doest mean anything, loosing stuff does so avoiding losses and getting gains is the game there. Basically depends on your personallity type and what the game caters too. But one things for sure, you cant mix both together, have to pick one or the other. Like playing Esports with death penalties doesnt make sense, just like gambling without any losses doesnt make any sense either.
Originally posted by Elitekill4
There's no laws for PKing?
WELL DUH, OF COURSE THERE ISN'T.
there´s the proof
and heres song about it
Judas priest : Breaking the Law
in MMOs now,theres no rules to break.
Generation P
So the lessons we learn in life, while being *mandated* in a work environment are seemingly *not applied* in a non-work environment? Artists require discipline, just as casual activities do. Do artists not invest hours, days, months of their lives refining pencil strokes and conceptual thinking? You paint it to be prettier but the underlying essence remains. Refocus your logical scope.
The difference is a choice one makes rather than being mandated via a job discription or work environment. Fulfillment requires personal investment- you can't have it any other way.
Relaxation cannot exist without exertion. Ever get tired of being lazy? How does one relax from relaxation? It doesn't check out.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
No. Actually it's a lot simpler than that.
Gameplay Patterns:
League of Legends -> Launch game, play, have fun.
Modern Warfare 2 -> Launch game, play, have fun.
WOW (pre-endgame) -> Launch game, play, have fun.
WOW (endgame dungeons) -> Launch game, wait a bit to find a group, play, have fun. (although this has presumably been changed to Lauch, play, have fun with that last patch.)
WOW (endgame raiding) -> Launch game, wait for pre-scheduled raid times, play, have fun.
Darkfall (crafting) -> Launch game, is it off-hours? Yes: Gather/craft. No: Inefficiently take frequent breaks in order to secure gathered resources.
Darkfall (in general) -> Launch game, is your city under attack? Yes: do you outnumber the enemy? no: you can't play, sorry. yes: play, have fun. City not under attack: play, have fun.
Darkfall (PVP) -> Launch game, do you have more hours invested than potential foes? No: train with boring repetitive PVE, or Zerg. Yes: play, have fun.
Really this only hits on the barest minimum of the obstacles to fun in Darkfall-like games. There are so many situations in Darkfall where I'm like "Well there's no chance of victory by staying logged in, so the only winning move is to stop playing for a bit."
EVE was quite similar, with my corporation (EVE University) having prolonged lockdowns while at war, which was basically: Launch game, is the corp at war? Yes: play, have fun. No: you can't play, sorry.
This is a direct result of the types of gameplay these games offer. In general players play games for fun, so games where fun is not realiably had tend to be less popular. And that is the much bigger reason "hardcore PVP" MMORPGs fail (though "hardcore PVP" to me are games more like MW2 and LOL, where player skill dictates victory...not non-skill factors like Time Investment.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I think this link from The Onion www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/sports_becomes_increasingly is relevant to this ongoing discussion
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Rofl! Nice! Albeit I'm sure the PGA comment should include T.W. in today's media... and sometimes I think we *all* wish there were death penalties for select athletes.... my gawsh if T.O. could ever shut up or just diaf!
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
If I ever make an MMO, I am so going to take all the loot away from those who are dumb enough to die and not be cautious.
I wouldn't give a crap if the n00bs ran away from my game ;p.