The reason WoW has so many lousy players is partly because there is no death penalty. Look at all the horrible players who are level 80. There's no possible way for them to de-level or anything, so the horrible players will eventually be the same level as everyone else. Then they get infinite retries on all of the instances, you end up with a game where everyone has the same gear because there are always infinite retries, and no death penalty. There is not enough incentive in WoW for strategy, it just encourages time investment and brute force and not thinking at all. In EQ, only a few people had certain items. In WoW everyone has everything. A game without a death penalty is for newbies who can't learn anything. They can't learn to survive so the game has to not penalize them for playing like shit.
how many of them reach End Game being a lousy? Tell Me that.
So WoW should punish them, and prevent them from having fun in the max lvl stuff, even though they wouldnt be able to do End Game PvE?
That logic fails. Everybody should be able to have fun in WoW. Not just the people that Enjoy Hardcore PvE and PvP.
Tell me why I should enjoy PvE and PvP when it has been so dumbed down?
If everyone is capable of doing what I do, getting what I get. Then what is the point in playing that kind of MMORPG? There needs to be gaps between lousy players and good players. There needs to be gear differences. There needs to be level differences. Newbies should stay as newbies until they improve enough to become good at a game. By not punishing lousy players, they will continue to play lousy.
How do you make a game where people learn when there is no incentive to learn or play good? People used to care about wiping raids, etc. Now no one cares, infinite retries, no exp loss, etc.
Bringing back an exp loss would make leveling more meaningful. People would actually pay attention, and not mindlessly grind through content, because if they died they would lose hours of progress.
Dumded Down???!!!!
How Far have you gotten in WoTLK? Please Tell,, cause I want to read this BS. You like other WoW haters on this site who call WoW easy mode, have never even completed Heroic End Game Raids. Yet you scream out EZMODE/DUMDED DWN
What you present in this thread is valuable to understanding more of the details at play, but as you've admitted the reasoning hasn't come full circle.
There still exists 2 major, glaring issues that I can see from where I sit:
- Jobs are extrinsic, and are the means to an end
- Hobbies are intrinsic, and where the heart lies
But the terms are NOT exclusive to the definitions as you've stated them.
I've looked a little more into Ted's because admittedly the video you linked did spark curiosity. I can't say that everything I've seen him state I agree with, and there are major flaws that are either glazed over or ignored. According to Myers-Brigg I'm a 'conceptual' and 'intuitive', since we're talking around these sorts of things- I figured I'd mention as much.
We need extrinsic details in everything we do in life. Ted makes things out to seem like intrinsic is the way to go. I think society as a whole (at least the western world) has been long stuck in external forces dictating internal interests... but the fact of the matter is that one cannot achieve accountability through internal assets. Accountability is the root of ensuring any operation you do remains ethical in nature, and that we don't dive straight into world dictatorship or plutonium and the like finding its way into the hands of maniacs.
We need a balance. That's where things always end. Drugs are defined exclusively based on dosage.
But seriously, for what it's worth, some good discussion going on here.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
The reason WoW has so many lousy players is partly because there is no death penalty. Look at all the horrible players who are level 80. There's no possible way for them to de-level or anything, so the horrible players will eventually be the same level as everyone else. Then they get infinite retries on all of the instances, you end up with a game where everyone has the same gear because there are always infinite retries, and no death penalty. There is not enough incentive in WoW for strategy, it just encourages time investment and brute force and not thinking at all. In EQ, only a few people had certain items. In WoW everyone has everything. A game without a death penalty is for newbies who can't learn anything. They can't learn to survive so the game has to not penalize them for playing like shit.
how many of them reach End Game being a lousy? Tell Me that.
So WoW should punish them, and prevent them from having fun in the max lvl stuff, even though they wouldnt be able to do End Game PvE?
That logic fails. Everybody should be able to have fun in WoW. Not just the people that Enjoy Hardcore PvE and PvP.
Tell me why I should enjoy PvE and PvP when it has been so dumbed down?
If everyone is capable of doing what I do, getting what I get. Then what is the point in playing that kind of MMORPG? There needs to be gaps between lousy players and good players. There needs to be gear differences. There needs to be level differences. Newbies should stay as newbies until they improve enough to become good at a game. By not punishing lousy players, they will continue to play lousy.
How do you make a game where people learn when there is no incentive to learn or play good? People used to care about wiping raids, etc. Now no one cares, infinite retries, no exp loss, etc.
Bringing back an exp loss would make leveling more meaningful. People would actually pay attention, and not mindlessly grind through content, because if they died they would lose hours of progress.
Dumded Down???!!!!
How Far have you gotten in WoTLK? Please Tell,, cause I want to read this BS. You like other WoW haters on this site who call WoW easy mode, have never even completed Heroic End Game Raids. Yet you scream out EZMODE/DUMDED DWN
You people make me sick
Why would I play a game that has been so dumbed down, and strayed so far from what it used to be? Back when my guild was clearing AQ40 and Naxx40, and everyone in WoW was stuck in Molten Core, or BWL entrance trash.. That is how WoW should have been kept. Instead they made all of their instances doable for everyone.
Good luck being unique, or different, in a game that gives away everything to players who just have to find the right zone to get rewarded.
Dumded Down???!!!! How Far have you gotten in WoTLK? Please Tell,, cause I want to read this BS. You like other WoW haters on this site who call WoW easy mode, have never even completed Heroic End Game Raids. Yet you scream out EZMODE/DUMDED DWN You people make me sick
They're not totally wrong though, because only in the very endgame of WOW does content get hard. Which means hundreds of hours of gameplay which aren't challenging.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Dumded Down???!!!! How Far have you gotten in WoTLK? Please Tell,, cause I want to read this BS. You like other WoW haters on this site who call WoW easy mode, have never even completed Heroic End Game Raids. Yet you scream out EZMODE/DUMDED DWN You people make me sick
And what if you crossed someone who did accomplish all the things the majority of the population stares in awe at- and they took a stance, along with reasoning why, against the thing you say makes you sick?
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
The reason WoW has so many lousy players is partly because there is no death penalty. Look at all the horrible players who are level 80. There's no possible way for them to de-level or anything, so the horrible players will eventually be the same level as everyone else. Then they get infinite retries on all of the instances, you end up with a game where everyone has the same gear because there are always infinite retries, and no death penalty. There is not enough incentive in WoW for strategy, it just encourages time investment and brute force and not thinking at all. In EQ, only a few people had certain items. In WoW everyone has everything. A game without a death penalty is for newbies who can't learn anything. They can't learn to survive so the game has to not penalize them for playing like shit.
First you have yet to demonstrate yourself to be good enough to comment on other gamer's "quality". You have not played for ages, you have none of the achievements, none of the raiding experience, PvP experience, nothing but a bunch of adjectives, a lot of rage and most important of all, endless rants.
If we need a referee on game playing, on tactics, you are the last of the kind to be consulted.
Second your eyes were only fixed on gear, whatever you said goes back to gear. With such limited mindset and understanding of the game, stop pretending you are fit to lecture us on how to play the game well. In EQ only a few has "certain items" (what items? it allows you to solo a boss or what?), making it a good game automatically? Gear is the only criterion to judge a game> the more elitist the better? No argument with your view, I do not agree.
As for death penalty, its just an age old arguement: encouragement vs punishment. There is no winning on that argument, it has been done ages after ages. I leave you opinion at that, acknowledged but not agreed on.
Dumded Down???!!!! How Far have you gotten in WoTLK? Please Tell,, cause I want to read this BS. You like other WoW haters on this site who call WoW easy mode, have never even completed Heroic End Game Raids. Yet you scream out EZMODE/DUMDED DWN You people make me sick
And what if you crossed someone who did accomplish all the things the majority of the population stares in awe at- and they took a stance, along with reasoning why, against the thing you say makes you sick?
What if ... stop dodging the question.
People who has done some of the really hard stuffs will know that it does need effort, from plans to preparing the characters, teams, training ... in some way, like a real life project. People who talk like you are the pretenders, unable to do it, pretending you are better by simply not trying.
NO, you are not the kind. I have my share of raiding, I have my share of talking on webs, with some of the raiders on my server in game. They never sound like you.
The more learned, the more humble. They have been humbled before, they know their own limits. They won't pretend, no more than what they actually are.
Dumded Down???!!!! How Far have you gotten in WoTLK? Please Tell,, cause I want to read this BS. You like other WoW haters on this site who call WoW easy mode, have never even completed Heroic End Game Raids. Yet you scream out EZMODE/DUMDED DWN You people make me sick
They're not totally wrong though, because only in the very endgame of WOW does content get hard. Which means hundreds of hours of gameplay which aren't challenging.
No offense, I really have issues understanding what you are getting at.
I have enough challenges at work. I have deadlines which look impossible, scheduled which were changed suddenly with hours left to hit deadline. Every kind of surprise every day. I do not seek challenges during leisure hours at home. I seek something else, a change in pace, a change in feel, in mood.
Where is the challenge in playing basketball with the neighbor kids, in playing hide and seek with my sister's toddler? Where is the challenge in BBQing with friends in my backyard, or a hike up the columbia river? No, it is called fun.
So keen to find challenge? Design a game mechanism that works, deliver it to a major publisher and get it produced. That is challenge. Go compose a music, build a new CPU, write a politcal these, stop global warming, stop racical discrimination, oh simple, stop all the bullshits on such webs. Do something really challenging. Not pretending to pose challenge in a game message board by what? Yelling "EZMODE", yelling "DUMB DOWN"? Typing those words are not challenge.
Dumded Down???!!!! How Far have you gotten in WoTLK? Please Tell,, cause I want to read this BS. You like other WoW haters on this site who call WoW easy mode, have never even completed Heroic End Game Raids. Yet you scream out EZMODE/DUMDED DWN You people make me sick
And what if you crossed someone who did accomplish all the things the majority of the population stares in awe at- and they took a stance, along with reasoning why, against the thing you say makes you sick?
What if ... stop dodging the question.
People who has done some of the really hard stuffs will know that it does need effort, from plans to preparing the characters, teams, training ... in some way, like a real life project. People who talk like you are the pretenders, unable to do it, pretending you are better by simply not trying.
NO, you are not the kind. I have my share of raiding, I have my share of talking on webs, with some of the raiders on my server in game. They never sound like you.
The more learned, the more humble. They have been humbled before, they know their own limits. They won't pretend, no more than what they actually are.
Welcome to the discussion lisubab- where every contribution on your behalf carries flames and trolling and turns a thread down a degenerate path.
Let's now make this an epeen thread? That's basically what you're suggesting. Fine by me, I have nothing to hide, much less so with the understanding that credibility on these forums is for naught.
I'm a former druid healer in a guild that downed 4HM classic. I was on 2 r14 farming teams- the first two when the concept initially launched. I rolled a warrior in BC and achieved a top 30 warrior dps posting on Bruttalus as part of a top 200 guild. I personally know the individual who ran the world's most premier EQ raiding guild. I rolled a warlock in Wrath after friends talked me back into the game, and assisted as a plug-in when guilds didn't have the numbers or experience in order to accomplish hard-modes due to past experiences in the 2 aforementioned games. My role has been with the elite my whole life- just not *the* elite guy. National level swimming in high school etc etc. I know exactly where I stand, and know what it takes to achieve- whatever the playing field.
No lisu, the more learned, the more knowledgeable. Humility... it's funny you use the word. You're apparently confusing arrogance with confidence. There's no pretending here friend. Just a jaded gamer who's tired of being farmed by what the MMO industry has become due to its giant.
So where now? The message and its carrier hold credibility. Let's do the stereotypical thing a fanboi would do and claim it as hoax.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
Dumded Down???!!!! How Far have you gotten in WoTLK? Please Tell,, cause I want to read this BS. You like other WoW haters on this site who call WoW easy mode, have never even completed Heroic End Game Raids. Yet you scream out EZMODE/DUMDED DWN You people make me sick
And what if you crossed someone who did accomplish all the things the majority of the population stares in awe at- and they took a stance, along with reasoning why, against the thing you say makes you sick?
What if ... stop dodging the question.
People who has done some of the really hard stuffs will know that it does need effort, from plans to preparing the characters, teams, training ... in some way, like a real life project. People who talk like you are the pretenders, unable to do it, pretending you are better by simply not trying.
NO, you are not the kind. I have my share of raiding, I have my share of talking on webs, with some of the raiders on my server in game. They never sound like you.
The more learned, the more humble. They have been humbled before, they know their own limits. They won't pretend, no more than what they actually are.
Welcome to the discussion lisubab- where every contribution on your behalf carries flames and trolling and turns a thread down a degenerate path.
Let's now make this an epeen thread? That's basically what you're suggesting. Fine by me, I have nothing to hide, much less so with the understanding that credibility on these forums is for naught.
I'm a former druid healer in a guild that downed 4HM classic. I was on 2 r14 farming teams- the first two when the concept initially launched. I rolled a warrior in BC and achieved a top 30 warrior dps posting on Bruttalus as part of a top 200 guild. I personally know the individual who ran the world's most premier EQ raiding guild. I rolled a warlock in Wrath after friends talked me back into the game, and assisted as a plug-in when guilds didn't have the numbers or experience in order to accomplish hard-modes due to past experiences in the 2 aforementioned games. My role has been with the elite my whole life- just not *the* elite guy. National level swimming in high school etc etc. I know exactly where I stand, and know what it takes to achieve- whatever the playing field.
No lisu, the more learned, the more knowledgeable. Humility... it's funny you use the word. You're apparently confusing arrogance with confidence. There's no pretending here friend. Just a jaded gamer who's tired of being farmed by what the MMO industry has become due to its giant.
So where now? The message and its carrier hold credibility. Let's do the stereotypical thing a fanboi would do and claim it as hoax.
First you talk about being "good" in BC ... that was history. Second, all you do is talk and try to impress us that you are "good".
Third and foremost, humbleness is an attitude, not a scale to measure ability (never believe in such a scale anyway).
I do not buy you words. I do not see the kind of mentality I know from people who achieved. I see a man or woman who keeps bragging his/her old achievement and ranting that the world has move one and is "dumbed" down simply because he/she ( meaing you ) does not like it. I vague recall my great grandpa during his last days, he keeps lamenting, telling us his deeds in the navy in WWI. For the old, whose days are numbered and has no more hopes of going any further, they can only look back. For achievers, they only look forward. Whatever that has been achieved in the past are just pages in history.
Spare me your pretense to credibility, not in my eyes. It does not matter to you though, you just need to keep talking about how good you once were. Talk here is enough for you. That is what you needed, I should not wake you up to face the real world.
Welcome to typing world, keep typing. You are great.
The arrogance of the hardcore player is often amazing. How a tiny faction of the player base expects to dictate how the rest of the players in the game get to play is mind boggling. There is hard content in just about every MMO game. Nowdays the amount of this content is controlled by the number of players who will actually get to experience it.
Unlike sports where having elite players and teams brings in dollars to the sport, if a MMO developer spends too much effort on the elite player it causes the company to lose money. The developers have gotten wise to this and have adjusted where they spend their time and money. The hardcore player base simply has to deal with a more proportionate amount of support from the developers.
The reason WoW has so many lousy players is partly because there is no death penalty. Look at all the horrible players who are level 80. There's no possible way for them to de-level or anything, so the horrible players will eventually be the same level as everyone else. Then they get infinite retries on all of the instances, you end up with a game where everyone has the same gear because there are always infinite retries, and no death penalty. There is not enough incentive in WoW for strategy, it just encourages time investment and brute force and not thinking at all. In EQ, only a few people had certain items. In WoW everyone has everything. A game without a death penalty is for newbies who can't learn anything. They can't learn to survive so the game has to not penalize them for playing like shit.
First you have yet to demonstrate yourself to be good enough to comment on other gamer's "quality". You have not played for ages, you have none of the achievements, none of the raiding experience, PvP experience, nothing but a bunch of adjectives, a lot of rage and most important of all, endless rants.
If we need a referee on game playing, on tactics, you are the last of the kind to be consulted.
Second your eyes were only fixed on gear, whatever you said goes back to gear. With such limited mindset and understanding of the game, stop pretending you are fit to lecture us on how to play the game well. In EQ only a few has "certain items" (what items? it allows you to solo a boss or what?), making it a good game automatically? Gear is the only criterion to judge a game> the more elitist the better? No argument with your view, I do not agree.
As for death penalty, its just an age old arguement: encouragement vs punishment. There is no winning on that argument, it has been done ages after ages. I leave you opinion at that, acknowledged but not agreed on.
Yeah, I will come beat WoW again so I can come here and say it sucks, right?
I have no achievements? Lol. I guess achievements are what WoW players use to judge others, because everyone in WoW is doing the same PvE/PvP content. How else do you distinguish players except through useless and meaningless "You explored 5000 zone" awards? What a joke, haha
I'll tell you what though, when I played, the game was a lot harder. Know why? Because 99% of people were stuck in Molten Core when my guild was in AQ and Naxx. Opened up AQ40 when newbies were wiping to MC trash.
And you bring up PvP experience.. WoW is a carebear game, with no real PvP system. Its PvP is designed for skill-less players who wouldn't be able to tolerate a real PvP game like EQ or EVE.
Yeah, I care about PvE content, and care about gear. Players who are better should have gear that lousy players should not have. That is why I won't play a trashy carebear game like WoW, which is now rewarding everyone with the same gear. Why should I be brought down to the level of those same people chain wiping in Molten Core when my guild was in AQ40 and Naxx? They've given those players the same gear as me, by making the content so trivial.
And what else is there to an MMORPG besides PvE and PvP? I don't log on to go fishing, or to have a screen saver. I liked MMORPGs when the PvE was challenging, and the PvP wasn't designed for carebears & crybabies.
In EQ, you could name the people who had a certain item. In WoW the lists would never end. Maybe you don't understand the concept of a unique character, with gear that is different from other players.. because you've been playing WoW, where there are 500 level 80 paladins with the same gear per server
Death penalty isn't in WoW because the players would always be level 1, that is all. In EQ they would take 3x as long to reach the max level.
Dumded Down???!!!! How Far have you gotten in WoTLK? Please Tell,, cause I want to read this BS. You like other WoW haters on this site who call WoW easy mode, have never even completed Heroic End Game Raids. Yet you scream out EZMODE/DUMDED DWN You people make me sick
They're not totally wrong though, because only in the very endgame of WOW does content get hard. Which means hundreds of hours of gameplay which aren't challenging.
No offense, I really have issues understanding what you are getting at.
I have enough challenges at work. I have deadlines which look impossible, scheduled which were changed suddenly with hours left to hit deadline. Every kind of surprise every day. I do not seek challenges during leisure hours at home. I seek something else, a change in pace, a change in feel, in mood.
Where is the challenge in playing basketball with the neighbor kids, in playing hide and seek with my sister's toddler? Where is the challenge in BBQing with friends in my backyard, or a hike up the columbia river? No, it is called fun.
So keen to find challenge? Design a game mechanism that works, deliver it to a major publisher and get it produced. That is challenge. Go compose a music, build a new CPU, write a politcal these, stop global warming, stop racical discrimination, oh simple, stop all the bullshits on such webs. Do something really challenging. Not pretending to pose challenge in a game message board by what? Yelling "EZMODE", yelling "DUMB DOWN"? Typing those words are not challenge.
Tell me, what is your vision of a challenge?
Well the core reason players enjoy games is pattern discovery. And a gameplay pattern will only remain interesting as long as there is something left to discover and master. This is why Chess remains interesting far longer than Tic-Tac-Toe (to blatantly steal the two examples from Ralph Koster's book.)
Playing hide and seek with a toddler is enjoyable on a different level than games, mostly centered around teaching, but to a small degree the "gameplay pattern" being discovered is the act of interacting with the toddler rather than the rules of the game itself. You don't know how exactly they'll act or what quaint kid-ism they'll say, so you play with them.
Basketball is challenging. Or do you sink every basket?
BBQing isn't challenging, but it's not a game either. It's just general socializing.
But back to the matter at hand, players want the interesting Chess-like patterns that hold their interest. If a game like WOW only provides simple Tic-Tac-Toe gameplay patterns, their interest will quickly fade (or rather most players' interest will fade; the 6-year olds dig it.) If there's no secondary benefit to the gaming activity (like your BBQ socializing) then there's no reason for the player to continue playing.
So that's why challenge is important.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Can we agree that the penalty for dying need not sting enough that a player quits the game in frustration, but does sting enough so that players do not play carelessly? (i.e., dying on purpose to port to the nearest town; stuff like that)
All I can say is MMO's that had death penalties with some sting to them made the dungeons and dark forests more foreboding (and more wondrous and immersive). These penalties just kind of breathe life into a game world.
Dumded Down???!!!! How Far have you gotten in WoTLK? Please Tell,, cause I want to read this BS. You like other WoW haters on this site who call WoW easy mode, have never even completed Heroic End Game Raids. Yet you scream out EZMODE/DUMDED DWN You people make me sick
They're not totally wrong though, because only in the very endgame of WOW does content get hard. Which means hundreds of hours of gameplay which aren't challenging.
No offense, I really have issues understanding what you are getting at.
I have enough challenges at work. I have deadlines which look impossible, scheduled which were changed suddenly with hours left to hit deadline. Every kind of surprise every day. I do not seek challenges during leisure hours at home. I seek something else, a change in pace, a change in feel, in mood.
Where is the challenge in playing basketball with the neighbor kids, in playing hide and seek with my sister's toddler? Where is the challenge in BBQing with friends in my backyard, or a hike up the columbia river? No, it is called fun.
So keen to find challenge? Design a game mechanism that works, deliver it to a major publisher and get it produced. That is challenge. Go compose a music, build a new CPU, write a politcal these, stop global warming, stop racical discrimination, oh simple, stop all the bullshits on such webs. Do something really challenging. Not pretending to pose challenge in a game message board by what? Yelling "EZMODE", yelling "DUMB DOWN"? Typing those words are not challenge.
Tell me, what is your vision of a challenge?
Well the core reason players enjoy games is pattern discovery. And a gameplay pattern will only remain interesting as long as there is something left to discover and master. This is why Chess remains interesting far longer than Tic-Tac-Toe (to blatantly steal the two examples from Ralph Koster's book.)
Playing hide and seek with a toddler is enjoyable on a different level than games, mostly centered around teaching, but to a small degree the "gameplay pattern" being discovered is the act of interacting with the toddler rather than the rules of the game itself. You don't know how exactly they'll act or what quaint kid-ism they'll say, so you play with them.
Basketball is challenging. Or do you sink every basket?
BBQing isn't challenging, but it's not a game either. It's just general socializing.
But back to the matter at hand, players want the interesting Chess-like patterns that hold their interest. If a game like WOW only provides simple Tic-Tac-Toe gameplay patterns, their interest will quickly fade (or rather most players' interest will fade; the 6-year olds dig it.) If there's no secondary benefit to the gaming activity (like your BBQ socializing) then there's no reason for the player to continue playing.
So that's why challenge is important.
WOW is still more complex and challenging then a majority of the general population is willing to deal with. Using a character passably in any MMO is already way past games like Tic-Tac-Toe.
MMOs as a whole are still a small market in the scheme of things.
Dumded Down???!!!! How Far have you gotten in WoTLK? Please Tell,, cause I want to read this BS. You like other WoW haters on this site who call WoW easy mode, have never even completed Heroic End Game Raids. Yet you scream out EZMODE/DUMDED DWN You people make me sick
They're not totally wrong though, because only in the very endgame of WOW does content get hard. Which means hundreds of hours of gameplay which aren't challenging.
No offense, I really have issues understanding what you are getting at.
I have enough challenges at work. I have deadlines which look impossible, scheduled which were changed suddenly with hours left to hit deadline. Every kind of surprise every day. I do not seek challenges during leisure hours at home. I seek something else, a change in pace, a change in feel, in mood.
Where is the challenge in playing basketball with the neighbor kids, in playing hide and seek with my sister's toddler? Where is the challenge in BBQing with friends in my backyard, or a hike up the columbia river? No, it is called fun.
So keen to find challenge? Design a game mechanism that works, deliver it to a major publisher and get it produced. That is challenge. Go compose a music, build a new CPU, write a politcal these, stop global warming, stop racical discrimination, oh simple, stop all the bullshits on such webs. Do something really challenging. Not pretending to pose challenge in a game message board by what? Yelling "EZMODE", yelling "DUMB DOWN"? Typing those words are not challenge.
Tell me, what is your vision of a challenge?
Well the core reason players enjoy games is pattern discovery. And a gameplay pattern will only remain interesting as long as there is something left to discover and master. This is why Chess remains interesting far longer than Tic-Tac-Toe (to blatantly steal the two examples from Ralph Koster's book.)
Playing hide and seek with a toddler is enjoyable on a different level than games, mostly centered around teaching, but to a small degree the "gameplay pattern" being discovered is the act of interacting with the toddler rather than the rules of the game itself. You don't know how exactly they'll act or what quaint kid-ism they'll say, so you play with them.
Basketball is challenging. Or do you sink every basket?
BBQing isn't challenging, but it's not a game either. It's just general socializing.
But back to the matter at hand, players want the interesting Chess-like patterns that hold their interest. If a game like WOW only provides simple Tic-Tac-Toe gameplay patterns, their interest will quickly fade (or rather most players' interest will fade; the 6-year olds dig it.) If there's no secondary benefit to the gaming activity (like your BBQ socializing) then there's no reason for the player to continue playing.
So that's why challenge is important.
Good this is solid discussion, actually you already know the answer.
Challenge is important for those who seek challenge for fun. Challenge is not important for those who seek something else for fun. Fun differs for each person. Fun in gaming does not always mean challenge for me.
Dumded Down???!!!! How Far have you gotten in WoTLK? Please Tell,, cause I want to read this BS. You like other WoW haters on this site who call WoW easy mode, have never even completed Heroic End Game Raids. Yet you scream out EZMODE/DUMDED DWN You people make me sick
They're not totally wrong though, because only in the very endgame of WOW does content get hard. Which means hundreds of hours of gameplay which aren't challenging.
No offense, I really have issues understanding what you are getting at.
I have enough challenges at work. I have deadlines which look impossible, scheduled which were changed suddenly with hours left to hit deadline. Every kind of surprise every day. I do not seek challenges during leisure hours at home. I seek something else, a change in pace, a change in feel, in mood.
Where is the challenge in playing basketball with the neighbor kids, in playing hide and seek with my sister's toddler? Where is the challenge in BBQing with friends in my backyard, or a hike up the columbia river? No, it is called fun.
So keen to find challenge? Design a game mechanism that works, deliver it to a major publisher and get it produced. That is challenge. Go compose a music, build a new CPU, write a politcal these, stop global warming, stop racical discrimination, oh simple, stop all the bullshits on such webs. Do something really challenging. Not pretending to pose challenge in a game message board by what? Yelling "EZMODE", yelling "DUMB DOWN"? Typing those words are not challenge.
Tell me, what is your vision of a challenge?
Well the core reason players enjoy games is pattern discovery. And a gameplay pattern will only remain interesting as long as there is something left to discover and master. This is why Chess remains interesting far longer than Tic-Tac-Toe (to blatantly steal the two examples from Ralph Koster's book.)
Playing hide and seek with a toddler is enjoyable on a different level than games, mostly centered around teaching, but to a small degree the "gameplay pattern" being discovered is the act of interacting with the toddler rather than the rules of the game itself. You don't know how exactly they'll act or what quaint kid-ism they'll say, so you play with them.
Basketball is challenging. Or do you sink every basket?
BBQing isn't challenging, but it's not a game either. It's just general socializing.
But back to the matter at hand, players want the interesting Chess-like patterns that hold their interest. If a game like WOW only provides simple Tic-Tac-Toe gameplay patterns, their interest will quickly fade (or rather most players' interest will fade; the 6-year olds dig it.) If there's no secondary benefit to the gaming activity (like your BBQ socializing) then there's no reason for the player to continue playing.
So that's why challenge is important.
WOW is still more complex and challenging then a majority of the general population is willing to deal with. Using a character passably in any MMO is already way past games like Tic-Tac-Toe.
MMOs as a whole are still a small market in the scheme of things.
True on that.
Character progression and optimisation in WoW is more than just throwing on some random purple epic gear and march out. It is actually quite a deep and complicated model, even though there are consistency issues somewhere. One good thing about WoW, there are usually more than one near optimal solution, and availability of gear/parts, costing and alternate routes to progression generally means there are multiple play styles to approaching a reasonably high performance level, or mix matching alternate progression.
Unfortunately, PvP and PvE is too distinct in WoW, in that there is very little mix-matching there.
The reason WoW has so many lousy players is partly because there is no death penalty. Look at all the horrible players who are level 80. There's no possible way for them to de-level or anything, so the horrible players will eventually be the same level as everyone else. Then they get infinite retries on all of the instances, you end up with a game where everyone has the same gear because there are always infinite retries, and no death penalty. There is not enough incentive in WoW for strategy, it just encourages time investment and brute force and not thinking at all. In EQ, only a few people had certain items. In WoW everyone has everything. A game without a death penalty is for newbies who can't learn anything. They can't learn to survive so the game has to not penalize them for playing like shit.
First you have yet to demonstrate yourself to be good enough to comment on other gamer's "quality". You have not played for ages, you have none of the achievements, none of the raiding experience, PvP experience, nothing but a bunch of adjectives, a lot of rage and most important of all, endless rants.
If we need a referee on game playing, on tactics, you are the last of the kind to be consulted.
Second your eyes were only fixed on gear, whatever you said goes back to gear. With such limited mindset and understanding of the game, stop pretending you are fit to lecture us on how to play the game well. In EQ only a few has "certain items" (what items? it allows you to solo a boss or what?), making it a good game automatically? Gear is the only criterion to judge a game> the more elitist the better? No argument with your view, I do not agree.
As for death penalty, its just an age old arguement: encouragement vs punishment. There is no winning on that argument, it has been done ages after ages. I leave you opinion at that, acknowledged but not agreed on.
Yeah, I will come beat WoW again so I can come here and say it sucks, right?
I have no achievements? Lol. I guess achievements are what WoW players use to judge others, because everyone in WoW is doing the same PvE/PvP content. How else do you distinguish players except through useless and meaningless "You explored 5000 zone" awards? What a joke, haha You know of no harder achievement than that?
I'll tell you what though, when I played, the game was a lot harder. Know why? Because 99% of people were stuck in Molten Core when my guild was in AQ and Naxx. Ah so it is harder b/c you are in the higher tier dungeons, that makes it harder? Ah Epeens, now I know why WoW sucks, b/c you now suck in WoW, so you blame WoW (punt intended) Opened up AQ40 when newbies were wiping to MC trash.
And you bring up PvP experience.. WoW is a carebear game, with no real PvP system. Its PvP is designed for skill-less players who wouldn't be able to tolerate a real PvP game like EQ or EVE. Ok EQ has real PvP while WoW with all those instants, global CDs and so on has no real PvP, I understand your claims. and I cast it away.
Yeah, I care about PvE content, and care about gear. Players who are better should why don't you say, you should have the gear no one else have, or the game sucks. have gear that lousy players should not have. That is why I won't play a trashy carebear game like WoW, which is now rewarding everyone with the same gear. Why should I be brought down to the level of those same people chain wiping in Molten Core when my guild was in AQ40 and Naxx? They've given those players the same gear as me, by making the content so trivial. Big news, you do not play it, so it is trashy. It rewards everyone with some kind of epics if they tried. So it is trashy. You need to be distinctive from others in a game in order to live, so WoW failed to make you special, it is trashy. It is all about you. You must be more rewarded b/c you believe you are better. Anyone failing to see you as intrinsically borned superior are dumb. I see, its you you you and you. Milk bottle mentality.
And what else is there to an MMORPG besides PvE and PvP? I don't log on to go fishing, or to have a screen saver. I liked MMORPGs when the PvE was challenging, and the PvP wasn't designed for carebears & crybabies. To you MMOs are designed to let you stand tall among others, that is your MMO, you think you are good, so the game must acknowledge it. Yes I think this exactly is crybaby mentality.
In EQ, you could name the people who had a certain item. In WoW the lists would never end. Maybe you don't understand the concept of a unique character, with gear that is different from other players.. because you've been playing WoW, where there are 500 level 80 paladins with the same gear per server Gear makes you unique. Ah now I see, I believe you will be wearing every single unique brand name product and stand in the corner of the street telling us you are unique. Hmm, I suddenly realise all students in the school are dumb because they all wear school uniforms. No one is unique. Gear is all you know about gaming, about characters about the person. Gear gear gear, you you you, that is your MMO. Thank you for explaining your view. Point taken
Death penalty isn't in WoW because the players would always be level 1, that is all. In EQ they would take 3x as long to reach the max level. Oh taking longer time to reach the max level makes it a good game? Good, your view is noted.
Lets sum it up.
(1) The game must be about Gink. Gink claims he is better, any game failing to demonstrate it beyond doubt is fail.
(2) Gear is the criteria to tell a gamer, gear is what makes a gamer unique. Gear is everything according to Gink.
(1)+(2) means Gink should have every good loot, no one else can even dream about it.
Oh yeah, Gink is so good, he need exclusive claim to gear to feel secure, or he comes here and cry and cry and cry.
And we need to believe he really is good and we should all surrender our rights to gear to him, so he feels comfit. Or he will cry and cry and cry. And he calls us crybabies.
What you present in this thread is valuable to understanding more of the details at play, but as you've admitted the reasoning hasn't come full circle.
There still exists 2 major, glaring issues that I can see from where I sit:
- Jobs are extrinsic, and are the means to an end
- Hobbies are intrinsic, and where the heart lies
But the terms are NOT exclusive to the definitions as you've stated them.
I've looked a little more into Ted's because admittedly the video you linked did spark curiosity. I can't say that everything I've seen him state I agree with, and there are major flaws that are either glazed over or ignored. According to Myers-Brigg I'm a 'conceptual' and 'intuitive', since we're talking around these sorts of things- I figured I'd mention as much.
We need extrinsic details in everything we do in life. Ted makes things out to seem like intrinsic is the way to go. I think society as a whole (at least the western world) has been long stuck in external forces dictating internal interests... but the fact of the matter is that one cannot achieve accountability through internal assets. Accountability is the root of ensuring any operation you do remains ethical in nature, and that we don't dive straight into world dictatorship or plutonium and the like finding its way into the hands of maniacs.
We need a balance. That's where things always end. Drugs are defined exclusively based on dosage.
But seriously, for what it's worth, some good discussion going on here.
Absolutely, I agree that we are products of our environment.
But how that environment influences us determines in which way our minds behave. All factors are extrinsic (because every last cell of your brain and body are physical and can be extrinsically modified), but is the reaction extrinsic or intrinsic?
What I would call an "extrinsically justified reaction" would be in effort of conservation. This is the desire of survival.
What I would call an "intrinsically justified reaction" would be in effort of discovery, without much regard of conservation. This is curiosity, or the desire to explore.
When we are extrinsically justified in our thoughts, we behave in a way similar to our "animal-class" cousins: we compete for resources, and we have the strong motivation to survive.
When we are intrinsically justified in our thoughts, which can only happen when there is no strong extrinsic motivation / competition (or the competition is not seen as the primary motivator), we behave in the full capacity of our naturally curious minds: we seek to discover and try new things.
Our minds have a certain hierarchy. Think of extrinsic motivation as our primary process, and intrinsic as our secondary. While the extrinsic need is satisfied, we enter an "intrinsic state." But we cannot enter that state while we are extrinsically justified.
If you show two people the same sort of non-linear problem (as in the video, the "candle problem") and offer one of them a huge reward, and the other guy nothing at all (this assumes they haven't been starved or tortured or what-have-you - they're physically and mentally sound and are isolated). The guy who was offered nothing will do better because he's not concentrated on anything but the problem. The risk for failure is nonexistent.
Now, who is to say he wasn't asked to solve the problem by a friend? Is that not extrinsic motivation?
Perhaps it is... but will the friend provide anything for doing so? Or is it just the intrinsic trust and love of the friend that drives him? Would the person solve the problem quickly if they don't place any value on their situation? What if they do not love what they're doing?
So it somewhat comes down to the question of: what is love?
A question that may have been answered more than once in more than a few ways in the scientific community, but I'm not subscribed to any journals that included a recent article about it. Since I haven't yet started any heavy research into it, I'm not at liberty to do anything but speculate.
EDIT - apologies for the possibly too-late reply. I don't have any definite amount of time to myself these days.
Can we agree that the penalty for dying need not sting enough that a player quits the game in frustration, but does sting enough so that players do not play carelessly? (i.e., dying on purpose to port to the nearest town; stuff like that) All I can say is MMO's that had death penalties with some sting to them made the dungeons and dark forests more foreboding (and more wondrous and immersive). These penalties just kind of breathe life into a game world.
Several issues are involved here.
First is penalty vs prize, encouragement vs deterrance. You can levy a death penalty or bonus for staying alive (say for every 10 minutes alive, you gained 1% power or health), if you have been fighting or something.
Second, it all depends on gamer. Someone feels they need to be kicked in the nuts to feel defeated (you might be one). Others feel they can regular their own mindset to realise failure, and that is enough (me). There is nothing wrong or right about this, it is personal preference.
I cannot see how you can suggest we agree on such personal views. You view is personal, and everybody is entitled to agreeing or disagreeing with it, one way or another.
Can we agree that the penalty for dying need not sting enough that a player quits the game in frustration, but does sting enough so that players do not play carelessly? (i.e., dying on purpose to port to the nearest town; stuff like that) All I can say is MMO's that had death penalties with some sting to them made the dungeons and dark forests more foreboding (and more wondrous and immersive). These penalties just kind of breathe life into a game world.
We can agree on that for sure, but it doesn't get us very far.
Why doesn't it get us far? Because I don't play carelessly in WOW. Death in PVE is a waste of my precious time, and also carries a small gold penalty. Death in PVP is also a waste of time, and also carries harsh penalties to your ability to carry out the game's objectives (...because you're busy being dead and not capturing flags.)
Although if we're specifically talking about death used to teleport to town, that can be solved by letting players Recall to town at will. You'll never die to teleport if you can do it as an ability
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Can we agree that the penalty for dying need not sting enough that a player quits the game in frustration, but does sting enough so that players do not play carelessly? (i.e., dying on purpose to port to the nearest town; stuff like that) All I can say is MMO's that had death penalties with some sting to them made the dungeons and dark forests more foreboding (and more wondrous and immersive). These penalties just kind of breathe life into a game world.
We can agree on that for sure, but it doesn't get us very far.
Why doesn't it get us far? Because I don't play carelessly in WOW. Death in PVE is a waste of my precious time, and also carries a small gold penalty. Death in PVP is also a waste of time, and also carries harsh penalties to your ability to carry out the game's objectives (...because you're busy being dead and not capturing flags.)
Although if we're specifically talking about death used to teleport to town, that can be solved by letting players Recall to town at will. You'll never die to teleport if you can do it as an ability
What I am driving at is if I am trying to venture through the "Dark and Spooky Forest" to get to some town on the other side so I can purchase spells/skills/materials that are only sold at that place, then a instant teleport defeats the purpose (in terms of immersion and adventure, anyway.)
A death penalty sufficient to make that "Dark and Spooky Forest" truly "dark and spooky" is a necessity. This might encourage me to travel in numbers, or wait for daylight when the ghosts dissipate or something, or talk to strangers and see if anyone wants to band together and venture as a group, or pay a fee to a knight (i.e., high level player) for safe escort through. And, when I get there, it's kind of a big deal, like "wow, I made it"; sort of a reward in itself.
Otherwise, I'd might as well zerg my way from Point A to Point B.
I think if games, especially WOW, had more of a sting to dying, it'd be a better gaming experience.
I think a death penalty in game design is on a linear slider bar, with one extreme being "nothing, none" and the other being "game-breaking". Naturally, like any slider bar, the volume on your radio perhaps, it needs to be gently nudged to get it just right. And WOW's setting is widely acknowledged as being too easy, too lenient.
Can we agree that the penalty for dying need not sting enough that a player quits the game in frustration, but does sting enough so that players do not play carelessly? (i.e., dying on purpose to port to the nearest town; stuff like that) All I can say is MMO's that had death penalties with some sting to them made the dungeons and dark forests more foreboding (and more wondrous and immersive). These penalties just kind of breathe life into a game world.
Several issues are involved here.
First is penalty vs prize, encouragement vs deterrance. You can levy a death penalty or bonus for staying alive (say for every 10 minutes alive, you gained 1% power or health), if you have been fighting or something.
Second, it all depends on gamer. Someone feels they need to be kicked in the nuts to feel defeated (you might be one). Others feel they can regular their own mindset to realise failure, and that is enough (me). There is nothing wrong or right about this, it is personal preference.
I cannot see how you can suggest we agree on such personal views. You view is personal, and everybody is entitled to agreeing or disagreeing with it, one way or another.
Lisa, that doesn't say anything ("everybody is entitled to agreeing or disagreeing..."). We are trying to discuss the merits and uses of a death penalty. Sometimes the challenge of a sting to dying makes a player more attentive and more immersed in the gaming experience.
If boxers used floppy nerf bats instead of punching gloves, a boxing match would be a lame event. Perhaps amusing at first, but entirely meaningless and risk-free.
The game world becomes more alive when there is some peril, and peril MUST entail something significantly inconvenient happening to your character if you fail. The goal is not to implement the penalty, but to encourage caution, immersion, and focused gameplay so that you actively avoid the penalty.
I kid you not, in earlier MMO's with harsher penalties, the dungeons and forests were scarier and quite a bit more fun. Sometimes I felt like I was tip-toeing through a dungeon, fearful of what might be around the corner.
Such caution also means some sections will go unexplored, allowing your imagination to run wild at what might be there.
First you talk about being "good" in BC ... that was history. Second, all you do is talk and try to impress us that you are "good". Third and foremost, humbleness is an attitude, not a scale to measure ability (never believe in such a scale anyway). I do not buy you words. I do not see the kind of mentality I know from people who achieved. I see a man or woman who keeps bragging his/her old achievement and ranting that the world has move one and is "dumbed" down simply because he/she ( meaing you ) does not like it. I vague recall my great grandpa during his last days, he keeps lamenting, telling us his deeds in the navy in WWI. For the old, whose days are numbered and has no more hopes of going any further, they can only look back. For achievers, they only look forward. Whatever that has been achieved in the past are just pages in history. Spare me your pretense to credibility, not in my eyes. It does not matter to you though, you just need to keep talking about how good you once were. Talk here is enough for you. That is what you needed, I should not wake you up to face the real world. Welcome to typing world, keep typing. You are great. Satisfied?
HAHAHAHAHA. Stereotypical indeed! How *else* does one justify validity? What do people put on their resumes? PATTERNED HISTORY. Holy sharkbites batman! Go run and tell the whole 'real world' you don't buy into their 'nonsense'! I ran the gamut of the game I dissect, with casual references to other areas in life. Who says people who have achieved don't look back? That's right, fanboi, claim it all as hoax. Find your ways of trying to nitpick and discredit validity. Live that life of delusions.
It's evident at this point your presence on these boards is to play the role of an instigator. Your posts are all trolls and flames. Enjoy your vacation- both yourself and these boards should enjoy it.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
In trying to explain to some folks on this board the importance, in regards to immersion and risk and reward, for having a death (or failure) penalty, I think I have finally come up with an analogy: Imagine playing poker with play money. Doesn't really hurt when you lose, but doesn't really mean as much when you win. Now, imagine playing poker (small stakes) with real money. Losing sort of stings, but winning has a thrill; gets the adrenaline pumping. Such a game would draw a person in more than the former example. A penalty for failure is critical for MMO's to have immersion and for rewards to fully be appreciated.
Quoting the OP for good measure, as we've run quite the gamut in discussions in this thread.
The assumption is that 'play' should be 'fun'. We've discussed quite a bit on what fun is for people, how play is a hobby, and many other things to these effects.
What has been evidenced thus far is the need for death penalty, regardless of how artibrary, being the lower limit. But one should exist.
We've also established that the penalty involved, shouldn't exceed an ability to pick up where one left off. In the example of poker, if a penalty attached to the risk of gambling away your life's belongings exists, then you can 'risk it all' and as a penalty, or a by-product thereof, you will be inable to keep playing the game. So as an upper limit, the penalty shouldn't allow a gamer, inside of their game, to 'risk it all away'. So as an upper limit, a penalty should 'be a spanking with a little sting' to it.
Can we perhaps reduce this delta further, or are the two terms too subjective to manipulate?
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
Comments
how many of them reach End Game being a lousy? Tell Me that.
So WoW should punish them, and prevent them from having fun in the max lvl stuff, even though they wouldnt be able to do End Game PvE?
That logic fails. Everybody should be able to have fun in WoW. Not just the people that Enjoy Hardcore PvE and PvP.
Tell me why I should enjoy PvE and PvP when it has been so dumbed down?
If everyone is capable of doing what I do, getting what I get. Then what is the point in playing that kind of MMORPG? There needs to be gaps between lousy players and good players. There needs to be gear differences. There needs to be level differences. Newbies should stay as newbies until they improve enough to become good at a game. By not punishing lousy players, they will continue to play lousy.
How do you make a game where people learn when there is no incentive to learn or play good? People used to care about wiping raids, etc. Now no one cares, infinite retries, no exp loss, etc.
Bringing back an exp loss would make leveling more meaningful. People would actually pay attention, and not mindlessly grind through content, because if they died they would lose hours of progress.
Dumded Down???!!!!
How Far have you gotten in WoTLK? Please Tell,, cause I want to read this BS. You like other WoW haters on this site who call WoW easy mode, have never even completed Heroic End Game Raids. Yet you scream out EZMODE/DUMDED DWN
You people make me sick
What you present in this thread is valuable to understanding more of the details at play, but as you've admitted the reasoning hasn't come full circle.
There still exists 2 major, glaring issues that I can see from where I sit:
- Jobs are extrinsic, and are the means to an end
- Hobbies are intrinsic, and where the heart lies
But the terms are NOT exclusive to the definitions as you've stated them.
I've looked a little more into Ted's because admittedly the video you linked did spark curiosity. I can't say that everything I've seen him state I agree with, and there are major flaws that are either glazed over or ignored. According to Myers-Brigg I'm a 'conceptual' and 'intuitive', since we're talking around these sorts of things- I figured I'd mention as much.
We need extrinsic details in everything we do in life. Ted makes things out to seem like intrinsic is the way to go. I think society as a whole (at least the western world) has been long stuck in external forces dictating internal interests... but the fact of the matter is that one cannot achieve accountability through internal assets. Accountability is the root of ensuring any operation you do remains ethical in nature, and that we don't dive straight into world dictatorship or plutonium and the like finding its way into the hands of maniacs.
We need a balance. That's where things always end. Drugs are defined exclusively based on dosage.
But seriously, for what it's worth, some good discussion going on here.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
how many of them reach End Game being a lousy? Tell Me that.
So WoW should punish them, and prevent them from having fun in the max lvl stuff, even though they wouldnt be able to do End Game PvE?
That logic fails. Everybody should be able to have fun in WoW. Not just the people that Enjoy Hardcore PvE and PvP.
Tell me why I should enjoy PvE and PvP when it has been so dumbed down?
If everyone is capable of doing what I do, getting what I get. Then what is the point in playing that kind of MMORPG? There needs to be gaps between lousy players and good players. There needs to be gear differences. There needs to be level differences. Newbies should stay as newbies until they improve enough to become good at a game. By not punishing lousy players, they will continue to play lousy.
How do you make a game where people learn when there is no incentive to learn or play good? People used to care about wiping raids, etc. Now no one cares, infinite retries, no exp loss, etc.
Bringing back an exp loss would make leveling more meaningful. People would actually pay attention, and not mindlessly grind through content, because if they died they would lose hours of progress.
Dumded Down???!!!!
How Far have you gotten in WoTLK? Please Tell,, cause I want to read this BS. You like other WoW haters on this site who call WoW easy mode, have never even completed Heroic End Game Raids. Yet you scream out EZMODE/DUMDED DWN
You people make me sick
Why would I play a game that has been so dumbed down, and strayed so far from what it used to be? Back when my guild was clearing AQ40 and Naxx40, and everyone in WoW was stuck in Molten Core, or BWL entrance trash.. That is how WoW should have been kept. Instead they made all of their instances doable for everyone.
Good luck being unique, or different, in a game that gives away everything to players who just have to find the right zone to get rewarded.
They're not totally wrong though, because only in the very endgame of WOW does content get hard. Which means hundreds of hours of gameplay which aren't challenging.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
And what if you crossed someone who did accomplish all the things the majority of the population stares in awe at- and they took a stance, along with reasoning why, against the thing you say makes you sick?
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
First you have yet to demonstrate yourself to be good enough to comment on other gamer's "quality". You have not played for ages, you have none of the achievements, none of the raiding experience, PvP experience, nothing but a bunch of adjectives, a lot of rage and most important of all, endless rants.
If we need a referee on game playing, on tactics, you are the last of the kind to be consulted.
Second your eyes were only fixed on gear, whatever you said goes back to gear. With such limited mindset and understanding of the game, stop pretending you are fit to lecture us on how to play the game well. In EQ only a few has "certain items" (what items? it allows you to solo a boss or what?), making it a good game automatically? Gear is the only criterion to judge a game> the more elitist the better? No argument with your view, I do not agree.
As for death penalty, its just an age old arguement: encouragement vs punishment. There is no winning on that argument, it has been done ages after ages. I leave you opinion at that, acknowledged but not agreed on.
And what if you crossed someone who did accomplish all the things the majority of the population stares in awe at- and they took a stance, along with reasoning why, against the thing you say makes you sick?
What if ... stop dodging the question.
People who has done some of the really hard stuffs will know that it does need effort, from plans to preparing the characters, teams, training ... in some way, like a real life project. People who talk like you are the pretenders, unable to do it, pretending you are better by simply not trying.
NO, you are not the kind. I have my share of raiding, I have my share of talking on webs, with some of the raiders on my server in game. They never sound like you.
The more learned, the more humble. They have been humbled before, they know their own limits. They won't pretend, no more than what they actually are.
They're not totally wrong though, because only in the very endgame of WOW does content get hard. Which means hundreds of hours of gameplay which aren't challenging.
No offense, I really have issues understanding what you are getting at.
I have enough challenges at work. I have deadlines which look impossible, scheduled which were changed suddenly with hours left to hit deadline. Every kind of surprise every day. I do not seek challenges during leisure hours at home. I seek something else, a change in pace, a change in feel, in mood.
Where is the challenge in playing basketball with the neighbor kids, in playing hide and seek with my sister's toddler? Where is the challenge in BBQing with friends in my backyard, or a hike up the columbia river? No, it is called fun.
So keen to find challenge? Design a game mechanism that works, deliver it to a major publisher and get it produced. That is challenge. Go compose a music, build a new CPU, write a politcal these, stop global warming, stop racical discrimination, oh simple, stop all the bullshits on such webs. Do something really challenging. Not pretending to pose challenge in a game message board by what? Yelling "EZMODE", yelling "DUMB DOWN"? Typing those words are not challenge.
Tell me, what is your vision of a challenge?
And what if you crossed someone who did accomplish all the things the majority of the population stares in awe at- and they took a stance, along with reasoning why, against the thing you say makes you sick?
What if ... stop dodging the question.
People who has done some of the really hard stuffs will know that it does need effort, from plans to preparing the characters, teams, training ... in some way, like a real life project. People who talk like you are the pretenders, unable to do it, pretending you are better by simply not trying.
NO, you are not the kind. I have my share of raiding, I have my share of talking on webs, with some of the raiders on my server in game. They never sound like you.
The more learned, the more humble. They have been humbled before, they know their own limits. They won't pretend, no more than what they actually are.
Welcome to the discussion lisubab- where every contribution on your behalf carries flames and trolling and turns a thread down a degenerate path.
Let's now make this an epeen thread? That's basically what you're suggesting. Fine by me, I have nothing to hide, much less so with the understanding that credibility on these forums is for naught.
I'm a former druid healer in a guild that downed 4HM classic. I was on 2 r14 farming teams- the first two when the concept initially launched. I rolled a warrior in BC and achieved a top 30 warrior dps posting on Bruttalus as part of a top 200 guild. I personally know the individual who ran the world's most premier EQ raiding guild. I rolled a warlock in Wrath after friends talked me back into the game, and assisted as a plug-in when guilds didn't have the numbers or experience in order to accomplish hard-modes due to past experiences in the 2 aforementioned games. My role has been with the elite my whole life- just not *the* elite guy. National level swimming in high school etc etc. I know exactly where I stand, and know what it takes to achieve- whatever the playing field.
No lisu, the more learned, the more knowledgeable. Humility... it's funny you use the word. You're apparently confusing arrogance with confidence. There's no pretending here friend. Just a jaded gamer who's tired of being farmed by what the MMO industry has become due to its giant.
So where now? The message and its carrier hold credibility. Let's do the stereotypical thing a fanboi would do and claim it as hoax.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
And what if you crossed someone who did accomplish all the things the majority of the population stares in awe at- and they took a stance, along with reasoning why, against the thing you say makes you sick?
What if ... stop dodging the question.
People who has done some of the really hard stuffs will know that it does need effort, from plans to preparing the characters, teams, training ... in some way, like a real life project. People who talk like you are the pretenders, unable to do it, pretending you are better by simply not trying.
NO, you are not the kind. I have my share of raiding, I have my share of talking on webs, with some of the raiders on my server in game. They never sound like you.
The more learned, the more humble. They have been humbled before, they know their own limits. They won't pretend, no more than what they actually are.
Welcome to the discussion lisubab- where every contribution on your behalf carries flames and trolling and turns a thread down a degenerate path.
Let's now make this an epeen thread? That's basically what you're suggesting. Fine by me, I have nothing to hide, much less so with the understanding that credibility on these forums is for naught.
I'm a former druid healer in a guild that downed 4HM classic. I was on 2 r14 farming teams- the first two when the concept initially launched. I rolled a warrior in BC and achieved a top 30 warrior dps posting on Bruttalus as part of a top 200 guild. I personally know the individual who ran the world's most premier EQ raiding guild. I rolled a warlock in Wrath after friends talked me back into the game, and assisted as a plug-in when guilds didn't have the numbers or experience in order to accomplish hard-modes due to past experiences in the 2 aforementioned games. My role has been with the elite my whole life- just not *the* elite guy. National level swimming in high school etc etc. I know exactly where I stand, and know what it takes to achieve- whatever the playing field.
No lisu, the more learned, the more knowledgeable. Humility... it's funny you use the word. You're apparently confusing arrogance with confidence. There's no pretending here friend. Just a jaded gamer who's tired of being farmed by what the MMO industry has become due to its giant.
So where now? The message and its carrier hold credibility. Let's do the stereotypical thing a fanboi would do and claim it as hoax.
First you talk about being "good" in BC ... that was history. Second, all you do is talk and try to impress us that you are "good".
Third and foremost, humbleness is an attitude, not a scale to measure ability (never believe in such a scale anyway).
I do not buy you words. I do not see the kind of mentality I know from people who achieved. I see a man or woman who keeps bragging his/her old achievement and ranting that the world has move one and is "dumbed" down simply because he/she ( meaing you ) does not like it. I vague recall my great grandpa during his last days, he keeps lamenting, telling us his deeds in the navy in WWI. For the old, whose days are numbered and has no more hopes of going any further, they can only look back. For achievers, they only look forward. Whatever that has been achieved in the past are just pages in history.
Spare me your pretense to credibility, not in my eyes. It does not matter to you though, you just need to keep talking about how good you once were. Talk here is enough for you. That is what you needed, I should not wake you up to face the real world.
Welcome to typing world, keep typing. You are great.
Satisfied?
The arrogance of the hardcore player is often amazing. How a tiny faction of the player base expects to dictate how the rest of the players in the game get to play is mind boggling. There is hard content in just about every MMO game. Nowdays the amount of this content is controlled by the number of players who will actually get to experience it.
Unlike sports where having elite players and teams brings in dollars to the sport, if a MMO developer spends too much effort on the elite player it causes the company to lose money. The developers have gotten wise to this and have adjusted where they spend their time and money. The hardcore player base simply has to deal with a more proportionate amount of support from the developers.
First you have yet to demonstrate yourself to be good enough to comment on other gamer's "quality". You have not played for ages, you have none of the achievements, none of the raiding experience, PvP experience, nothing but a bunch of adjectives, a lot of rage and most important of all, endless rants.
If we need a referee on game playing, on tactics, you are the last of the kind to be consulted.
Second your eyes were only fixed on gear, whatever you said goes back to gear. With such limited mindset and understanding of the game, stop pretending you are fit to lecture us on how to play the game well. In EQ only a few has "certain items" (what items? it allows you to solo a boss or what?), making it a good game automatically? Gear is the only criterion to judge a game> the more elitist the better? No argument with your view, I do not agree.
As for death penalty, its just an age old arguement: encouragement vs punishment. There is no winning on that argument, it has been done ages after ages. I leave you opinion at that, acknowledged but not agreed on.
Yeah, I will come beat WoW again so I can come here and say it sucks, right?
I have no achievements? Lol. I guess achievements are what WoW players use to judge others, because everyone in WoW is doing the same PvE/PvP content. How else do you distinguish players except through useless and meaningless "You explored 5000 zone" awards? What a joke, haha
I'll tell you what though, when I played, the game was a lot harder. Know why? Because 99% of people were stuck in Molten Core when my guild was in AQ and Naxx. Opened up AQ40 when newbies were wiping to MC trash.
And you bring up PvP experience.. WoW is a carebear game, with no real PvP system. Its PvP is designed for skill-less players who wouldn't be able to tolerate a real PvP game like EQ or EVE.
Yeah, I care about PvE content, and care about gear. Players who are better should have gear that lousy players should not have. That is why I won't play a trashy carebear game like WoW, which is now rewarding everyone with the same gear. Why should I be brought down to the level of those same people chain wiping in Molten Core when my guild was in AQ40 and Naxx? They've given those players the same gear as me, by making the content so trivial.
And what else is there to an MMORPG besides PvE and PvP? I don't log on to go fishing, or to have a screen saver. I liked MMORPGs when the PvE was challenging, and the PvP wasn't designed for carebears & crybabies.
In EQ, you could name the people who had a certain item. In WoW the lists would never end. Maybe you don't understand the concept of a unique character, with gear that is different from other players.. because you've been playing WoW, where there are 500 level 80 paladins with the same gear per server
Death penalty isn't in WoW because the players would always be level 1, that is all. In EQ they would take 3x as long to reach the max level.
They're not totally wrong though, because only in the very endgame of WOW does content get hard. Which means hundreds of hours of gameplay which aren't challenging.
No offense, I really have issues understanding what you are getting at.
I have enough challenges at work. I have deadlines which look impossible, scheduled which were changed suddenly with hours left to hit deadline. Every kind of surprise every day. I do not seek challenges during leisure hours at home. I seek something else, a change in pace, a change in feel, in mood.
Where is the challenge in playing basketball with the neighbor kids, in playing hide and seek with my sister's toddler? Where is the challenge in BBQing with friends in my backyard, or a hike up the columbia river? No, it is called fun.
So keen to find challenge? Design a game mechanism that works, deliver it to a major publisher and get it produced. That is challenge. Go compose a music, build a new CPU, write a politcal these, stop global warming, stop racical discrimination, oh simple, stop all the bullshits on such webs. Do something really challenging. Not pretending to pose challenge in a game message board by what? Yelling "EZMODE", yelling "DUMB DOWN"? Typing those words are not challenge.
Tell me, what is your vision of a challenge?
Well the core reason players enjoy games is pattern discovery. And a gameplay pattern will only remain interesting as long as there is something left to discover and master. This is why Chess remains interesting far longer than Tic-Tac-Toe (to blatantly steal the two examples from Ralph Koster's book.)
Playing hide and seek with a toddler is enjoyable on a different level than games, mostly centered around teaching, but to a small degree the "gameplay pattern" being discovered is the act of interacting with the toddler rather than the rules of the game itself. You don't know how exactly they'll act or what quaint kid-ism they'll say, so you play with them.
Basketball is challenging. Or do you sink every basket?
BBQing isn't challenging, but it's not a game either. It's just general socializing.
But back to the matter at hand, players want the interesting Chess-like patterns that hold their interest. If a game like WOW only provides simple Tic-Tac-Toe gameplay patterns, their interest will quickly fade (or rather most players' interest will fade; the 6-year olds dig it.) If there's no secondary benefit to the gaming activity (like your BBQ socializing) then there's no reason for the player to continue playing.
So that's why challenge is important.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Can we agree that the penalty for dying need not sting enough that a player quits the game in frustration, but does sting enough so that players do not play carelessly? (i.e., dying on purpose to port to the nearest town; stuff like that)
All I can say is MMO's that had death penalties with some sting to them made the dungeons and dark forests more foreboding (and more wondrous and immersive). These penalties just kind of breathe life into a game world.
They're not totally wrong though, because only in the very endgame of WOW does content get hard. Which means hundreds of hours of gameplay which aren't challenging.
No offense, I really have issues understanding what you are getting at.
I have enough challenges at work. I have deadlines which look impossible, scheduled which were changed suddenly with hours left to hit deadline. Every kind of surprise every day. I do not seek challenges during leisure hours at home. I seek something else, a change in pace, a change in feel, in mood.
Where is the challenge in playing basketball with the neighbor kids, in playing hide and seek with my sister's toddler? Where is the challenge in BBQing with friends in my backyard, or a hike up the columbia river? No, it is called fun.
So keen to find challenge? Design a game mechanism that works, deliver it to a major publisher and get it produced. That is challenge. Go compose a music, build a new CPU, write a politcal these, stop global warming, stop racical discrimination, oh simple, stop all the bullshits on such webs. Do something really challenging. Not pretending to pose challenge in a game message board by what? Yelling "EZMODE", yelling "DUMB DOWN"? Typing those words are not challenge.
Tell me, what is your vision of a challenge?
Well the core reason players enjoy games is pattern discovery. And a gameplay pattern will only remain interesting as long as there is something left to discover and master. This is why Chess remains interesting far longer than Tic-Tac-Toe (to blatantly steal the two examples from Ralph Koster's book.)
Playing hide and seek with a toddler is enjoyable on a different level than games, mostly centered around teaching, but to a small degree the "gameplay pattern" being discovered is the act of interacting with the toddler rather than the rules of the game itself. You don't know how exactly they'll act or what quaint kid-ism they'll say, so you play with them.
Basketball is challenging. Or do you sink every basket?
BBQing isn't challenging, but it's not a game either. It's just general socializing.
But back to the matter at hand, players want the interesting Chess-like patterns that hold their interest. If a game like WOW only provides simple Tic-Tac-Toe gameplay patterns, their interest will quickly fade (or rather most players' interest will fade; the 6-year olds dig it.) If there's no secondary benefit to the gaming activity (like your BBQ socializing) then there's no reason for the player to continue playing.
So that's why challenge is important.
WOW is still more complex and challenging then a majority of the general population is willing to deal with. Using a character passably in any MMO is already way past games like Tic-Tac-Toe.
MMOs as a whole are still a small market in the scheme of things.
They're not totally wrong though, because only in the very endgame of WOW does content get hard. Which means hundreds of hours of gameplay which aren't challenging.
No offense, I really have issues understanding what you are getting at.
I have enough challenges at work. I have deadlines which look impossible, scheduled which were changed suddenly with hours left to hit deadline. Every kind of surprise every day. I do not seek challenges during leisure hours at home. I seek something else, a change in pace, a change in feel, in mood.
Where is the challenge in playing basketball with the neighbor kids, in playing hide and seek with my sister's toddler? Where is the challenge in BBQing with friends in my backyard, or a hike up the columbia river? No, it is called fun.
So keen to find challenge? Design a game mechanism that works, deliver it to a major publisher and get it produced. That is challenge. Go compose a music, build a new CPU, write a politcal these, stop global warming, stop racical discrimination, oh simple, stop all the bullshits on such webs. Do something really challenging. Not pretending to pose challenge in a game message board by what? Yelling "EZMODE", yelling "DUMB DOWN"? Typing those words are not challenge.
Tell me, what is your vision of a challenge?
Well the core reason players enjoy games is pattern discovery. And a gameplay pattern will only remain interesting as long as there is something left to discover and master. This is why Chess remains interesting far longer than Tic-Tac-Toe (to blatantly steal the two examples from Ralph Koster's book.)
Playing hide and seek with a toddler is enjoyable on a different level than games, mostly centered around teaching, but to a small degree the "gameplay pattern" being discovered is the act of interacting with the toddler rather than the rules of the game itself. You don't know how exactly they'll act or what quaint kid-ism they'll say, so you play with them.
Basketball is challenging. Or do you sink every basket?
BBQing isn't challenging, but it's not a game either. It's just general socializing.
But back to the matter at hand, players want the interesting Chess-like patterns that hold their interest. If a game like WOW only provides simple Tic-Tac-Toe gameplay patterns, their interest will quickly fade (or rather most players' interest will fade; the 6-year olds dig it.) If there's no secondary benefit to the gaming activity (like your BBQ socializing) then there's no reason for the player to continue playing.
So that's why challenge is important.
Good this is solid discussion, actually you already know the answer.
Challenge is important for those who seek challenge for fun. Challenge is not important for those who seek something else for fun. Fun differs for each person. Fun in gaming does not always mean challenge for me.
Hope you now see what I am pointing at.
They're not totally wrong though, because only in the very endgame of WOW does content get hard. Which means hundreds of hours of gameplay which aren't challenging.
No offense, I really have issues understanding what you are getting at.
I have enough challenges at work. I have deadlines which look impossible, scheduled which were changed suddenly with hours left to hit deadline. Every kind of surprise every day. I do not seek challenges during leisure hours at home. I seek something else, a change in pace, a change in feel, in mood.
Where is the challenge in playing basketball with the neighbor kids, in playing hide and seek with my sister's toddler? Where is the challenge in BBQing with friends in my backyard, or a hike up the columbia river? No, it is called fun.
So keen to find challenge? Design a game mechanism that works, deliver it to a major publisher and get it produced. That is challenge. Go compose a music, build a new CPU, write a politcal these, stop global warming, stop racical discrimination, oh simple, stop all the bullshits on such webs. Do something really challenging. Not pretending to pose challenge in a game message board by what? Yelling "EZMODE", yelling "DUMB DOWN"? Typing those words are not challenge.
Tell me, what is your vision of a challenge?
Well the core reason players enjoy games is pattern discovery. And a gameplay pattern will only remain interesting as long as there is something left to discover and master. This is why Chess remains interesting far longer than Tic-Tac-Toe (to blatantly steal the two examples from Ralph Koster's book.)
Playing hide and seek with a toddler is enjoyable on a different level than games, mostly centered around teaching, but to a small degree the "gameplay pattern" being discovered is the act of interacting with the toddler rather than the rules of the game itself. You don't know how exactly they'll act or what quaint kid-ism they'll say, so you play with them.
Basketball is challenging. Or do you sink every basket?
BBQing isn't challenging, but it's not a game either. It's just general socializing.
But back to the matter at hand, players want the interesting Chess-like patterns that hold their interest. If a game like WOW only provides simple Tic-Tac-Toe gameplay patterns, their interest will quickly fade (or rather most players' interest will fade; the 6-year olds dig it.) If there's no secondary benefit to the gaming activity (like your BBQ socializing) then there's no reason for the player to continue playing.
So that's why challenge is important.
WOW is still more complex and challenging then a majority of the general population is willing to deal with. Using a character passably in any MMO is already way past games like Tic-Tac-Toe.
MMOs as a whole are still a small market in the scheme of things.
True on that.
Character progression and optimisation in WoW is more than just throwing on some random purple epic gear and march out. It is actually quite a deep and complicated model, even though there are consistency issues somewhere. One good thing about WoW, there are usually more than one near optimal solution, and availability of gear/parts, costing and alternate routes to progression generally means there are multiple play styles to approaching a reasonably high performance level, or mix matching alternate progression.
Unfortunately, PvP and PvE is too distinct in WoW, in that there is very little mix-matching there.
First you have yet to demonstrate yourself to be good enough to comment on other gamer's "quality". You have not played for ages, you have none of the achievements, none of the raiding experience, PvP experience, nothing but a bunch of adjectives, a lot of rage and most important of all, endless rants.
If we need a referee on game playing, on tactics, you are the last of the kind to be consulted.
Second your eyes were only fixed on gear, whatever you said goes back to gear. With such limited mindset and understanding of the game, stop pretending you are fit to lecture us on how to play the game well. In EQ only a few has "certain items" (what items? it allows you to solo a boss or what?), making it a good game automatically? Gear is the only criterion to judge a game> the more elitist the better? No argument with your view, I do not agree.
As for death penalty, its just an age old arguement: encouragement vs punishment. There is no winning on that argument, it has been done ages after ages. I leave you opinion at that, acknowledged but not agreed on.
Yeah, I will come beat WoW again so I can come here and say it sucks, right?
I have no achievements? Lol. I guess achievements are what WoW players use to judge others, because everyone in WoW is doing the same PvE/PvP content. How else do you distinguish players except through useless and meaningless "You explored 5000 zone" awards? What a joke, haha You know of no harder achievement than that?
I'll tell you what though, when I played, the game was a lot harder. Know why? Because 99% of people were stuck in Molten Core when my guild was in AQ and Naxx. Ah so it is harder b/c you are in the higher tier dungeons, that makes it harder? Ah Epeens, now I know why WoW sucks, b/c you now suck in WoW, so you blame WoW (punt intended) Opened up AQ40 when newbies were wiping to MC trash.
And you bring up PvP experience.. WoW is a carebear game, with no real PvP system. Its PvP is designed for skill-less players who wouldn't be able to tolerate a real PvP game like EQ or EVE. Ok EQ has real PvP while WoW with all those instants, global CDs and so on has no real PvP, I understand your claims. and I cast it away.
Yeah, I care about PvE content, and care about gear. Players who are better should why don't you say, you should have the gear no one else have, or the game sucks. have gear that lousy players should not have. That is why I won't play a trashy carebear game like WoW, which is now rewarding everyone with the same gear. Why should I be brought down to the level of those same people chain wiping in Molten Core when my guild was in AQ40 and Naxx? They've given those players the same gear as me, by making the content so trivial. Big news, you do not play it, so it is trashy. It rewards everyone with some kind of epics if they tried. So it is trashy. You need to be distinctive from others in a game in order to live, so WoW failed to make you special, it is trashy. It is all about you. You must be more rewarded b/c you believe you are better. Anyone failing to see you as intrinsically borned superior are dumb. I see, its you you you and you. Milk bottle mentality.
And what else is there to an MMORPG besides PvE and PvP? I don't log on to go fishing, or to have a screen saver. I liked MMORPGs when the PvE was challenging, and the PvP wasn't designed for carebears & crybabies. To you MMOs are designed to let you stand tall among others, that is your MMO, you think you are good, so the game must acknowledge it. Yes I think this exactly is crybaby mentality.
In EQ, you could name the people who had a certain item. In WoW the lists would never end. Maybe you don't understand the concept of a unique character, with gear that is different from other players.. because you've been playing WoW, where there are 500 level 80 paladins with the same gear per server Gear makes you unique. Ah now I see, I believe you will be wearing every single unique brand name product and stand in the corner of the street telling us you are unique. Hmm, I suddenly realise all students in the school are dumb because they all wear school uniforms. No one is unique. Gear is all you know about gaming, about characters about the person. Gear gear gear, you you you, that is your MMO. Thank you for explaining your view. Point taken
Death penalty isn't in WoW because the players would always be level 1, that is all. In EQ they would take 3x as long to reach the max level. Oh taking longer time to reach the max level makes it a good game? Good, your view is noted.
Lets sum it up.
(1) The game must be about Gink. Gink claims he is better, any game failing to demonstrate it beyond doubt is fail.
(2) Gear is the criteria to tell a gamer, gear is what makes a gamer unique. Gear is everything according to Gink.
(1)+(2) means Gink should have every good loot, no one else can even dream about it.
Oh yeah, Gink is so good, he need exclusive claim to gear to feel secure, or he comes here and cry and cry and cry.
And we need to believe he really is good and we should all surrender our rights to gear to him, so he feels comfit. Or he will cry and cry and cry. And he calls us crybabies.
How mature.
What you present in this thread is valuable to understanding more of the details at play, but as you've admitted the reasoning hasn't come full circle.
There still exists 2 major, glaring issues that I can see from where I sit:
- Jobs are extrinsic, and are the means to an end
- Hobbies are intrinsic, and where the heart lies
But the terms are NOT exclusive to the definitions as you've stated them.
I've looked a little more into Ted's because admittedly the video you linked did spark curiosity. I can't say that everything I've seen him state I agree with, and there are major flaws that are either glazed over or ignored. According to Myers-Brigg I'm a 'conceptual' and 'intuitive', since we're talking around these sorts of things- I figured I'd mention as much.
We need extrinsic details in everything we do in life. Ted makes things out to seem like intrinsic is the way to go. I think society as a whole (at least the western world) has been long stuck in external forces dictating internal interests... but the fact of the matter is that one cannot achieve accountability through internal assets. Accountability is the root of ensuring any operation you do remains ethical in nature, and that we don't dive straight into world dictatorship or plutonium and the like finding its way into the hands of maniacs.
We need a balance. That's where things always end. Drugs are defined exclusively based on dosage.
But seriously, for what it's worth, some good discussion going on here.
Absolutely, I agree that we are products of our environment.
But how that environment influences us determines in which way our minds behave. All factors are extrinsic (because every last cell of your brain and body are physical and can be extrinsically modified), but is the reaction extrinsic or intrinsic?
What I would call an "extrinsically justified reaction" would be in effort of conservation. This is the desire of survival.
What I would call an "intrinsically justified reaction" would be in effort of discovery, without much regard of conservation. This is curiosity, or the desire to explore.
When we are extrinsically justified in our thoughts, we behave in a way similar to our "animal-class" cousins: we compete for resources, and we have the strong motivation to survive.
When we are intrinsically justified in our thoughts, which can only happen when there is no strong extrinsic motivation / competition (or the competition is not seen as the primary motivator), we behave in the full capacity of our naturally curious minds: we seek to discover and try new things.
Our minds have a certain hierarchy. Think of extrinsic motivation as our primary process, and intrinsic as our secondary. While the extrinsic need is satisfied, we enter an "intrinsic state." But we cannot enter that state while we are extrinsically justified.
If you show two people the same sort of non-linear problem (as in the video, the "candle problem") and offer one of them a huge reward, and the other guy nothing at all (this assumes they haven't been starved or tortured or what-have-you - they're physically and mentally sound and are isolated). The guy who was offered nothing will do better because he's not concentrated on anything but the problem. The risk for failure is nonexistent.
Now, who is to say he wasn't asked to solve the problem by a friend? Is that not extrinsic motivation?
Perhaps it is... but will the friend provide anything for doing so? Or is it just the intrinsic trust and love of the friend that drives him? Would the person solve the problem quickly if they don't place any value on their situation? What if they do not love what they're doing?
So it somewhat comes down to the question of: what is love?
(baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me... no more)
A question that may have been answered more than once in more than a few ways in the scientific community, but I'm not subscribed to any journals that included a recent article about it. Since I haven't yet started any heavy research into it, I'm not at liberty to do anything but speculate.
EDIT - apologies for the possibly too-late reply. I don't have any definite amount of time to myself these days.
Several issues are involved here.
First is penalty vs prize, encouragement vs deterrance. You can levy a death penalty or bonus for staying alive (say for every 10 minutes alive, you gained 1% power or health), if you have been fighting or something.
Second, it all depends on gamer. Someone feels they need to be kicked in the nuts to feel defeated (you might be one). Others feel they can regular their own mindset to realise failure, and that is enough (me). There is nothing wrong or right about this, it is personal preference.
I cannot see how you can suggest we agree on such personal views. You view is personal, and everybody is entitled to agreeing or disagreeing with it, one way or another.
We can agree on that for sure, but it doesn't get us very far.
Why doesn't it get us far? Because I don't play carelessly in WOW. Death in PVE is a waste of my precious time, and also carries a small gold penalty. Death in PVP is also a waste of time, and also carries harsh penalties to your ability to carry out the game's objectives (...because you're busy being dead and not capturing flags.)
Although if we're specifically talking about death used to teleport to town, that can be solved by letting players Recall to town at will. You'll never die to teleport if you can do it as an ability
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
We can agree on that for sure, but it doesn't get us very far.
Why doesn't it get us far? Because I don't play carelessly in WOW. Death in PVE is a waste of my precious time, and also carries a small gold penalty. Death in PVP is also a waste of time, and also carries harsh penalties to your ability to carry out the game's objectives (...because you're busy being dead and not capturing flags.)
Although if we're specifically talking about death used to teleport to town, that can be solved by letting players Recall to town at will. You'll never die to teleport if you can do it as an ability
What I am driving at is if I am trying to venture through the "Dark and Spooky Forest" to get to some town on the other side so I can purchase spells/skills/materials that are only sold at that place, then a instant teleport defeats the purpose (in terms of immersion and adventure, anyway.)
A death penalty sufficient to make that "Dark and Spooky Forest" truly "dark and spooky" is a necessity. This might encourage me to travel in numbers, or wait for daylight when the ghosts dissipate or something, or talk to strangers and see if anyone wants to band together and venture as a group, or pay a fee to a knight (i.e., high level player) for safe escort through. And, when I get there, it's kind of a big deal, like "wow, I made it"; sort of a reward in itself.
Otherwise, I'd might as well zerg my way from Point A to Point B.
I think if games, especially WOW, had more of a sting to dying, it'd be a better gaming experience.
I think a death penalty in game design is on a linear slider bar, with one extreme being "nothing, none" and the other being "game-breaking". Naturally, like any slider bar, the volume on your radio perhaps, it needs to be gently nudged to get it just right. And WOW's setting is widely acknowledged as being too easy, too lenient.
Several issues are involved here.
First is penalty vs prize, encouragement vs deterrance. You can levy a death penalty or bonus for staying alive (say for every 10 minutes alive, you gained 1% power or health), if you have been fighting or something.
Second, it all depends on gamer. Someone feels they need to be kicked in the nuts to feel defeated (you might be one). Others feel they can regular their own mindset to realise failure, and that is enough (me). There is nothing wrong or right about this, it is personal preference.
I cannot see how you can suggest we agree on such personal views. You view is personal, and everybody is entitled to agreeing or disagreeing with it, one way or another.
Lisa, that doesn't say anything ("everybody is entitled to agreeing or disagreeing..."). We are trying to discuss the merits and uses of a death penalty. Sometimes the challenge of a sting to dying makes a player more attentive and more immersed in the gaming experience.
If boxers used floppy nerf bats instead of punching gloves, a boxing match would be a lame event. Perhaps amusing at first, but entirely meaningless and risk-free.
The game world becomes more alive when there is some peril, and peril MUST entail something significantly inconvenient happening to your character if you fail. The goal is not to implement the penalty, but to encourage caution, immersion, and focused gameplay so that you actively avoid the penalty.
I kid you not, in earlier MMO's with harsher penalties, the dungeons and forests were scarier and quite a bit more fun. Sometimes I felt like I was tip-toeing through a dungeon, fearful of what might be around the corner.
Such caution also means some sections will go unexplored, allowing your imagination to run wild at what might be there.
HAHAHAHAHA. Stereotypical indeed! How *else* does one justify validity? What do people put on their resumes? PATTERNED HISTORY. Holy sharkbites batman! Go run and tell the whole 'real world' you don't buy into their 'nonsense'! I ran the gamut of the game I dissect, with casual references to other areas in life. Who says people who have achieved don't look back? That's right, fanboi, claim it all as hoax. Find your ways of trying to nitpick and discredit validity. Live that life of delusions.
It's evident at this point your presence on these boards is to play the role of an instigator. Your posts are all trolls and flames. Enjoy your vacation- both yourself and these boards should enjoy it.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
Quoting the OP for good measure, as we've run quite the gamut in discussions in this thread.
The assumption is that 'play' should be 'fun'. We've discussed quite a bit on what fun is for people, how play is a hobby, and many other things to these effects.
What has been evidenced thus far is the need for death penalty, regardless of how artibrary, being the lower limit. But one should exist.
We've also established that the penalty involved, shouldn't exceed an ability to pick up where one left off. In the example of poker, if a penalty attached to the risk of gambling away your life's belongings exists, then you can 'risk it all' and as a penalty, or a by-product thereof, you will be inable to keep playing the game. So as an upper limit, the penalty shouldn't allow a gamer, inside of their game, to 'risk it all away'. So as an upper limit, a penalty should 'be a spanking with a little sting' to it.
Can we perhaps reduce this delta further, or are the two terms too subjective to manipulate?
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter