How instancing ruins MMORPGs

drbaltazar

mmo maker need to rebalance things

wow was balanced in vanilla it had instance it had world raid instanced raid etc

but at one point blizzard booted world raid and that was a very bad call

they even had world pvp (eastern plagueland and others)

and blizzard booted that too for an inferior instanced version.

i dont say blizzard or other maker need to boot instance

but mmo maker need to learn to balance this

50% world things ,50% intanced things would be nice

right now its 90% instanced and 10% world ,and the stuff world is are small insificant boss

it would easy for blizzard to balance thing just raise the lvl of all vanilla stuff to lvl80 and boom you got a winner

instance only is bad ,world only is bad also !

it needs to be balanced to be loved by the majority !

 

Toquio3

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Lexiscat


I hated the spawn camping, mob training, and ganking that occurred in Everquests non instanced dungeons.
One of the most exciting things about World of Warcraft when i first picked it up was the possibility of having all those spawns to my group without having to wait or fight for them.
I cannot describe how annoying it was to sit and wait, and wait, and wait, and wait, ooh a pop! *kill mob* BAh! It didn't drop. Sit and wait, and wait, and wait...
There maybe a better option then this, that is not instancing, but I know of no game that has it.

 

I thought that was the best part of the game.

That's what made it interesting for me. Solo quest grinding in WoW, or jumping in and out of zerg like groups to finish off a quest chain seems rather boring by comparison.

Train!

Run!

 

So basically, you enjoyed the things that pissed other people off but yourself. Nice attitude. No wonder developers wised up.

fearless47

Non-instancing brings back memories.

 

    Playing EQ - take one hour to form a group, 20 minutes to get to dungeon, yell camp check - sorry all camps full, run deeper into dungeon and zone, yell camp check - sorry all camps full. Wait for a bit to ask each group how long they are going to be there and if there is a line waiting.

Leave that dungeon because it is booked for the next 2 hours and run 20 minutes to next dungeon and repeat process. All the while hoping none of your team members drop out because RL calls.

Now don't get me wrong - I loved EQ, played for 4 years. But I neither have the time or patience anymore to spend that much time waiting to have fun.

 

So I can not see instancing hurting any PVE MMO. As far as PVP, DAOC had an instanced dungeon that everyone could get into with one entrance for each faction and it worked very well. So it is more about how instancing is done then if there is any.

 

By the way - I hate sitting for 20 minutes to get my mana back also, had no problem doing it then, but now time is an issue. Guess that is what happens when you get older and RL always gets in the way..lol.

skarwolf

 You can't have seamless non instanced pvp these days due to population disparities which ruins pvp worse then instancing does.  Just look at WOW, DAOC & Warhammer for examples.

Try to pvp in your seamless world when the other side outnumbers you 20 to 1.  

sylkyshok

The thing i liked with eq was the amount of camps though. At 70 max level you could go to RSS,MPG,etc all of which had plenty of camps. Plus the fact you could work on anguish signet farming, etc made a lot of fun. I see everyone's points though. I just miss the epic key grinding, epic 1.0, 1.5, 2.0, etc. Things that took a period of time to obtain and gave each character a sense of satisfaction when they received their items,spells,tomes, etc... I'm not flaming WOW.... it has its place. I just wish there was a more immersive and "skilled" game. WOW basically hands its loot out... but I am more of a "hardcore" mentality.

Toquio3

Originally posted by sylkyshok


The thing i liked with eq was the amount of camps though. At 70 max level you could go to RSS,MPG,etc all of which had plenty of camps. Plus the fact you could work on anguish signet farming, etc made a lot of fun. I see everyone's points though. I just miss the epic key grinding, epic 1.0, 1.5, 2.0, etc. Things that took a period of time to obtain and gave each character a sense of satisfaction when they received their items,spells,tomes, etc... I'm not flaming WOW.... it has its place. I just wish there was a more immersive and "time-consuming" game. WOW basically hands its loot out... but I am more of a "hardcore" mentality.

 

Axehilt

Originally posted by stryker31


This really is just another argument of Hardcore vs Casual mmos. Most of the games that have steered clear of instances completely have been hardcore games, requiring hours of play at a time and not being friendly to those who took longer to learn or played without a large group of friends.

 

I almost think MMORPG.com should consider posts that use the term "Hardcore" to be automatic trolling, because that's what it amounts to.

Especially when "hardcore" is being applied to MMORPG world PVP systems (which are some of the least hardcore PVP mechanics around in terms of skillful play.)

Giddian

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by stryker31


This really is just another argument of Hardcore vs Casual mmos. Most of the games that have steered clear of instances completely have been hardcore games, requiring hours of play at a time and not being friendly to those who took longer to learn or played without a large group of friends.

 

I almost think MMORPG.com should consider posts that use the term "Hardcore" to be automatic trolling, because that's what it amounts to.

Especially when "hardcore" is being applied to MMORPG world PVP systems (which are some of the least hardcore PVP mechanics around in terms of skillful play.)

 

I agree, But I can't wait to hear the Responces. It's going to get Ugly

Toquio3

Originally posted by Giddian

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by stryker31


This really is just another argument of Hardcore vs Casual mmos. Most of the games that have steered clear of instances completely have been hardcore games, requiring hours of play at a time and not being friendly to those who took longer to learn or played without a large group of friends.

 

I almost think MMORPG.com should consider posts that use the term "Hardcore" to be automatic trolling, because that's what it amounts to.

Especially when "hardcore" is being applied to MMORPG world PVP systems (which are some of the least hardcore PVP mechanics around in terms of skillful play.)

 

I agree, But I can't wait to hear the Responces. It's going to get Ugly

 

No kidding.  *grabs popcorn*

Antarious

Instances have never ruined an MMO for me...

 

What does ruin an MMO for me is...

 

I am told through story one way or another of this dangerous crypt.  No one has ever returned alive from.. so I go there and find 500 other adventurers inside... no mobs alive.. quarrels over spawn points and um no danger.

 

Yet an instnce that could created to "challenge" a group or raid... if developers would stop handing out "god gear" is bad...

 

go figure..

Giddian

I am disapointed with the lack of resonce frome the PvP Community.

 

iZakaroN

Instances=Multiplayer

I still do not understand why so many pure multiplayer (instanced) games name their self massive? It looks that now days almost no one know the meaning of Massive gameplay. It do not mean the massive amount of players to play the game. It mean that massive amount can play and interact together. That is why WC3 is considered multiplayer but not massive and its exact equality of instance. Get it?

Toquio3

Originally posted by iZakaroN


Instances=Multiplayer
I still do not understand why so many pure multiplayer (instanced) games name their self massive? It looks that now days almost no one know the meaning of Massive gameplay. It do not mean the massive amount of players to play the game. It mean that massive amount can play and interact together. That is why WC3 is considered multiplayer but not massive and its exact equality of instance. Get it?

 

'can' being the key word here, I would argue that a 'massive' amount of players 'can' interact together in wow too. Whats to stop 100 alliance players from battling 100 horde players in the non-instance world? nothing.

corpusc

Originally posted by Toquio3

Originally posted by Tatum


It's a just GAME vs. WORLD debate.  You're probably going to fall on one side or the other and the two side will never agree.  And NO, you can't have it both ways in one game.  You either comit to the idea of keeping the world open or you go with instances and scripted, private encounters.
I'm not a grouping fanatic, I actually solo most of the time.  But, I prefer WORLDS over GAMES.  If I want to play a game, I'm going with another genre, probably FPS.  Other genres just have better controls, better combat, and more of a challenge.  I come to MMOs for a persistant, massive, world.  So no, I really don't see the point in scripted instances.  They're not immersive, they're not fun, and they're completely static.  Of course, that's just my opinion.
The point though, is that the more instances you add, the less players you have in the actual game world.  At a certain point, you don't really have an MMORPG any more, you have Diablo 2. 

 

Yeah but whats immersive about you going deep into a cave to fight a fearsome dragon, only to see 50 people already there taping their foot waiting to tag the beast before you can?

 

that is EXACTLY what DOES make it immersive.  the fact you are part of a living, occupied, world full of life.  there's the proof right in front of your eyes.  50 real people (not just braindead "AI")  were one step ahead of you.  you can even shockingly talk to them, maybe join their group.....all kinds of possibilities exist when you interact with REAL people.  when the world is actually full of life.  its always the same shit over and over again with AI. the other option is totally anti-MMO.  my whole reason for playing MMOs is to play something massively populated.  

 

if you don't wanna interact with or people or have them "interrupt" your game why are you playing an MMO?  non-MMO games are superior in most other aspects.

Toquio3

Originally posted by corpusc

Originally posted by Toquio3

Originally posted by Tatum


It's a just GAME vs. WORLD debate.  You're probably going to fall on one side or the other and the two side will never agree.  And NO, you can't have it both ways in one game.  You either comit to the idea of keeping the world open or you go with instances and scripted, private encounters.
I'm not a grouping fanatic, I actually solo most of the time.  But, I prefer WORLDS over GAMES.  If I want to play a game, I'm going with another genre, probably FPS.  Other genres just have better controls, better combat, and more of a challenge.  I come to MMOs for a persistant, massive, world.  So no, I really don't see the point in scripted instances.  They're not immersive, they're not fun, and they're completely static.  Of course, that's just my opinion.
The point though, is that the more instances you add, the less players you have in the actual game world.  At a certain point, you don't really have an MMORPG any more, you have Diablo 2. 

 

Yeah but whats immersive about you going deep into a cave to fight a fearsome dragon, only to see 50 people already there taping their foot waiting to tag the beast before you can?

 

that is EXACTLY what DOES make it immersive.  the fact you are part of a living, occupied, world full of life.  there's the proof right in front of your eyes.  50 real people (not just braindead "AI")  were one step ahead of you.  you can even shockingly talk to them, maybe join their group.....all kinds of possibilities exist when you interact with REAL people.  when the world is actually full of life.  its always the same shit over and over again with AI. the other option is totally anti-MMO.  my whole reason for playing MMOs is to play something massively populated.  

 

if you don't wanna interact with or people or have them "interrupt" your game why are you playing an MMO?  non-MMO games are superior in most other aspects.

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree on what immersive is then. To me, 'massively populated' shouldnt mean I have to wait hours to kill a  mob because there are 200 people in a cave. And I will be the judge of what games I find enjoyable.

0tter

I still don't understand why the hardcores want to socialize so badly with a community they despise. 

Toquio3

Originally posted by otter3370


I still don't understand why the hardcores want to socialize so badly with a community they despise. 

 

lol made me laugh

kiddyno071

I like some instancing but like anything it can be overdone.  When it feels like I'm playing a single player PS or XBox game I'm all set.

mugengaia

I'm not a big instancing fan, but the reason it works and developers don't want to look beyond this system is the fact that technologically server systems can't handle complicated Open World activities.

I would love to see an Open World game where there is not one single instance, but only Open World raid bosses and dungeons.

But the problem with this is that such a game to be successful requires an extreme amount of content, where enough number of players can spread around inbetween content.

Another problem is with the way users prefer one type of gear over another. Users tend to go through raids in certain instances where the gears dropped are in favor of that certain class or just that specific update or expansion. Sooner or later older instances die out and people start running through the same contents.

Just imagine that everyone in an open world game crams into one specific dungeon due to loots dropped, it would create a huge mess. Everyone can imagine the stress the server would experience when there's a single mass crowd crammed into one specific area.

Not only will this kind of system create a problem like disputes between hunting spots, but in an open pvp game like L2, there's an unfair advantage to those have and have nots who control over territories.

In the end, a pure Open World MMO would be awesome only if the developers can offer a massive amount of content to satisfy everyone. 

I'm not a WoW fan nor do I like the WoW cookie cutter MMOs coming out one after another, but no company wants to take the risk going beyond the norm.  Nowadays it's all about operational strategies to release content gradually, so that you don't lose customers over time.  Companies no longer even think about introducing new ideas, new UIs, new control mechanics, or avoid instances...

The WoW phenomenon has pretty much degraded the MMO market.  No MMO company wants to explore beyond the current WoW cookie cutter industry.  It's unfortunate, but MMO developers don't have the creative minds like they did back in the late 90s. 

It's no longer about introducing ingenious ideas in the MMO market, it's all about taking Blizzard as an example to figure out how to produce a similar retained earnings number.

The only conclusion I can come up with with the effect WoW has had on the MMO industry is that WoW has caused a stalemate and there is no longer any progression. 

Console RPGs like Final Fantasy series, Dragon Quest series, and etc. have become the standard for console RPGs.  Console RPGs revolve around turn based combat and rich storyline.  This has become the standard formula of console RPGs, and honestly, companies tyring and exploring new concepts failed miserably.

Same can be applied to MMOs.  WoW has standarized the concepts of MMORPGs, and the WoW forumla isn't going to be ameliorated any time soon.  It's unfortunate, but this is reality...

Comnitus

Instanced zones = bad.

Instanced dungeons = good.

 

Toquio3

Originally posted by Comnitus


Instanced zones = bad.
Instanced dungeons = good.
 

 

There ya go, nice and easy. But no, some people dont want you to experience content. Content is only for those who do 5 hour gaming stretches.

corpusc

Originally posted by Venger      So the idea of separating groups of people into different instances of the same place is a good idea. 
 

 

i have no problem with the idea of instances and letting people have the type of game that they want.

i don't mind the way Champions Online does instances for ...instance.  the world is full of life in their PUBLIC instances, and there's alot of advantages of having just one "shard" everyone shares.

however they should also have menu options where you can select how populated (or NOT) you want your instances to be, so you don't have to choose from an immersion breaking instance selection menu.

what i hate is FORCED PRIVATE instances.  dungeons are my favorite places where i like to spend most of my time and that means WoW is just a small scale, lifeless co-op RPG for me, so i quit playing after a couple days.

in WoW....why don't they have the OPTION of going to a public version of the dungeons for people like me?

why don't they have the OPTION of having private overland outdoor terrain environments for people that don't want other groups to interfere with their instant gratification?

i just hate the inconsistency of hybrid games.  if "taylor made", "highly tuned" "scripted experiences" are so great, you should be able to have those experiences in the outdoor terrains and throughout the whole world.

 

give everyone a CHOICE and i'd have no problem with it.  but WoW FORCES LIFELESS (yes, unbelievably i'm aware you may not see it as being lifeless) dungeons on EVERYone.

 

Evasia

Originally posted by Axehilt


Non-instancing may create a better social atmosphere (by a little; I mean do you really want to talk to the guy who camped the boss you want to kill?) but instancing creates a better game.  Instancing lets me log in, play the game, and have fun.  Non-instanced games invariably involve a ton of wasted time spent doing nothing (either traveling or waiting on spawns or avoiding huge zerg PK packs...or corpse-running back from aforementioned packs.)  I'd rather spend my time playing the game than wasting time with non-gameplay.
This is without touching upon the myriad of reasons instanced content ends up being richer than non-instanced content.

 

And thats what OP mean these days you want your own exclusive instance so your not bothered or annoyed or have to fight foor mobs or spots.

And result is annonymous servers where smalls groups play with each other and dunno rest of server.

Result server with no real community just small or bigger groups that dont interact with rest of server.

 

I understand why OP dont like that anymore its so anti social:(

Paleriders

Originally posted by otter3370


I still don't understand why the hardcores want to socialize so badly with a community they despise. 

 

Quoted for awesomeness.

maimeekrai

A better subject line for this thread would be:

 

"How Ginkeq's thoughts on instancing ruin MMORPGs for him"