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How instancing ruins MMORPGs
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10/10!!
It made me smiiiile :-)
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
you have good reasons for why things are necessary within a certain paradigm. however if people would get away from seperate "shards" and have PUBLIC instances like CO, it takes care of that.
fact is, even "non-instanced" games like Darkfall, Vanguard, EQ1, ARE instanced games. instead of being instanced according to demand on a zone by zone basis, they more illogically (cuz its alot simpler conceptually) have entirely seperate worlds, and tune it so the most populated zone generally doesn't have more than x many players (which makes most (or almost all, in a massive game like EQ1) zones complete ghosttowns). that problem would also be largely solved with a system like CO. then we wouldn't have 1 player in freeport, across 15 (or whatever) different servers, but instead have possibly up to 16 players in freeport at any given time.
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Yeah but whats immersive about you going deep into a cave to fight a fearsome dragon, only to see 50 people already there taping their foot waiting to tag the beast before you can?
I think an option I could suggest here would be to have a larger open world populated with multiple encounters that run along the same lines. Say, for instance, you have your dragon in a cave. There are many people who want to fight a dragon in a cave (solo or group). Possible rewards for beating a dragon aside, if you have multiple "dragon in a cave" scenarios strategically placed over the larger game world, would that not help alleviate the problem of camping, as well as help foster a unique experience for you and/or your group?
this was one reason it wasn't such a tragedy in EQ1. if you talked to the group and didn't wanna join them, or couldn't convince them to leave, trick them to leave, make them leave (if its PVP), you could always go to another dungeon, and try later.
hey, guess what. that makes the dungeon dynamic. when you have it all to yourself or influence the world in such a way to MAKE it all yours, you have alot more fun DOING the dungeon. it has more meaning.
since RPGs are ALL ABOUT restricting you and keeping you from doing everything you want immediately, it wouldn't make sense for an RPG fan to say its such a bad thing that you can't do anything you want at anytime. most RPG mechanics are about restricting your access to certain abilities (thats what class systems as well as many other RPG systems are built upon).
they'd never argue that you should be able to cast huge nukes, tank, mesmerize mobs, and be able to disarm traps all on a whim. but they want that uncontested, undynamic access to all content on a whim?
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'can' being the key word here, I would argue that a 'massive' amount of players 'can' interact together in wow too. Whats to stop 100 alliance players from battling 100 horde players in the non-instance world? nothing.
Yes exactly that was the idea when it was released. After months crying about world PvP from peoples that do not like it one day Blizzard decided to add battlegrounds that was the death of the massive aspect of WoW. Who cares if you can do something in it but no one does?
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration
______\m/_____
LordOfDarkDesire
I thought that was the best part of the game.
That's what made it interesting for me. Solo quest grinding in WoW, or jumping in and out of zerg like groups to finish off a quest chain seems rather boring by comparison.
Train!
Run!
So basically, you enjoyed the things that pissed other people off but yourself. Nice attitude. No wonder developers wised up.
there was plenty of people that loved trains and other aspects of dynamic, living dungeons. funny how you're trying to come across like "hey i'm wise enough to realize other people have different tastes than me" in response to me, and here you are talking like this. lol
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'can' being the key word here, I would argue that a 'massive' amount of players 'can' interact together in wow too. Whats to stop 100 alliance players from battling 100 horde players in the non-instance world? nothing.
Yes exactly that was the idea when it was released. After months crying about world PvP from peoples that do not like it one day Blizzard decided to add battlegrounds that was the death of the massive aspect of WoW. Who cares if you can do something in it but no one does?
If it was fun they would do it. The fact that they dont should tell you something.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
Upon reading the last 2 pages, a few things came to mind that I would like to address. Let's start with the main topic of this thread:
Instancing is almost a necessary thing in regards to being able to provide an equal experience to millions of players. It does not take away from social behavior if people have to work together on it, it should actually help with it more because rather than waiting 1-2 hours on that boss spawn you and your group needs, you're waiting a matter of a few minutes to put your group together and take off running. People lets not forget how it was like without instancing. Have you ever tried packing a hundred thousand players in one room, that's basically what you would be trying to do with a server and if that ever happened, I think the lot of you (that hate instances) would be very disappointed. The population is much bigger than what it was back in UO's day and even those dungeons were crowded back then.
This whole, instancing takes away from immersion is just full of bs. First of all, why are you trying to live in a fairytale world that doesn't exist so badly? Is it that important that the realism has to be on point for you being able to relive Frodo's adventure in Lord of the Rings? Who and what exactly defines what immersion is actually? It's like one of those words misappropriately utilized in the MMORPG genre, these are games people, quit trying to live inside of them. And if you don't like that answer, refer to the last paragraph about cramming millions of people into an open world without any instancing. Who the hell decides what is or isn't "immersion" anyway?
Massive. Another word I hate people and it really isn't a topic of any debate. Who cares about it, it was merely a word used to describe the genre. Genres are used to very LOOSELY describe a type of game, but it doesn't define it. Arguing semantics is as useless as the government arguing about the definition of marriage (which is best for another topic). Again, stick to the point, no one cares what you think what a MMORPG should or shouldn't be because last time I checked, you weren't the one in charge of defining what is/isn't an MMORPG.
The pettiness behind it all. Would anyone explain any real reason how not using instancing is even possible or any real reason how instancing takes away from socializing? I seem to be socializing more now that WoW came out with this LFG tool, would anyone explain that? Am I just an abnormality in the system? (please say yes please say yes and I'll call myself Neo =x) And please if you think you have a real reason, keep Massive and Immersion out of it. Those words are misused or at least invented in the way some of these gamers are using it with the genre.
'can' being the key word here, I would argue that a 'massive' amount of players 'can' interact together in wow too. Whats to stop 100 alliance players from battling 100 horde players in the non-instance world? nothing.
Yes exactly that was the idea when it was released. After months crying about world PvP from peoples that do not like it one day Blizzard decided to add battlegrounds that was the death of the massive aspect of WoW. Who cares if you can do something in it but no one does?
If it was fun they would do it. The fact that they dont should tell you something.
Exactly. It still happened on and off on my server post-WSG, but it got boring and was pointless.
There ya go, nice and easy. But no, some people dont want you to experience content. Content is only for those who do 5 hour gaming stretches.
hahaha this is one of the funniest posts ever. Comnitus brings alot of persuasive arguments to the table
and this is the kind statement Toquio finds to be wisdom. 8)
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There ya go, nice and easy. But no, some people dont want you to experience content. Content is only for those who do 5 hour gaming stretches.
hahaha this is one of the funniest posts ever. Comnitus brings alot of persuasive arguments to the table
and this is the kind statement Toquio finds to be wisdom. 8)
I agreed with him. Your games are dead, and the ones that try to live are disfigured old freaks. Cry some more.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
like i said just instancing isnt fun ,and just world raid isnt fun either,ence the need for balance
that way you can do world event when its avail and instanced when its full
thats why vanilla wow lvl 60 got popular so fast ,because it was balanced then they got totally unbalanced toward
instance only .be it arena ,dungeon ,wg pvp style its all instanced try to find a world raid ,you WILL have to lock your toon at
level 60 to experience world raid because its the only place there are any left
Quoted for awesomeness.
even tho i'm not in the least bit "hardcore" about any MMO that has ever existed, and think that PVP is a fundamentally flawed idea with any game that has character progression.....
the fact otter doesn't understand why just goes to show why him and others that find that statement supposedly insightful can't possibly understand why players out there want MMOs that actually embrace the fact they are an MMO instead of chip away at it.
you guys are entitled to your PARTIALLY MMO hybridized tastes. i'm not superior just cuz i like MMOs to embrace being massively multiplayer.
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There ya go, nice and easy. But no, some people dont want you to experience content. Content is only for those who do 5 hour gaming stretches.
You can experience the content of any single or multiplayer game with exactly the same success as any instanced game. The idea behind massive gameplay is iteraction between players. So you can help or interfere one another. When you have instances you on practice cut the iterraction and contest between players. I know most players do not like exactly that things, but still do not understand why they want and think that they play MMO if they just play a mulitplayer mode of single player game?
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration
______\m/_____
LordOfDarkDesire
There ya go, nice and easy. But no, some people dont want you to experience content. Content is only for those who do 5 hour gaming stretches.
You can experience the content of any single or multiplayer game with exactly the same success as any instanced game. The idea behind massive gameplay is iteraction between players. So you can help or interfere one another. When you have instances you on practice cut the iterraction and contest between players. I know most players do not like exactly that things, but still do not understand why they want and think that they play MMO if they just play a mulitplayer mode of single player game?
Wrong. The idea behind mmos is to let the players play in whatever way they want. Something you refuse to understand.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
There ya go, nice and easy. But no, some people dont want you to experience content. Content is only for those who do 5 hour gaming stretches.
hahaha this is one of the funniest posts ever. Comnitus brings alot of persuasive arguments to the table
and this is the kind statement Toquio finds to be wisdom. 8)
I agreed with him. Your games are dead, and the ones that try to live are disfigured old freaks. Cry some more.
it gets even better. brilliant points you bring up there.
popularity = good. not so popular = bad
i'm sure music critics agree with you. jazz and classical for example are horrible genres cuz virtually no kids nowadays listen to them.
btw, there is no MMO for me right now. i play Darkfall casually for a month at a time, TWICE now. and it keeps growing bigger. pretty surprising for the type of game it is. and, i'll refer you to the top of this post since you are about to make some inane comment about how it is still small and will always remain small. so don't think you're gonna enlighten me about that.
meanwhile it is you who is crying that somebody who can actually bring up some relevant points doesn't go along with your brief bites of wisdom. don't get your popcorn all soggy.
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I think the answer is pretty easy and theres not really anything strange about it. "hardcores" are usually described as the kind of people that like to win at things or sometimes known as "competitive" players. It would make even more sense to want to socialize with a community they despise so that they can compete and beat them. In a non-pvp game they can show off all their cool stuff and maybe even kill steal if they like that sort of thing. In a pvp game they could go around killing these "people they despise" and possibly even take all their loot, if the game allows it. In addition, more reasons why they would not want to have instances is so they can train mobs on these people they despise and things like that.
However, this is only one type of hardcore player. There are other types, and there are actually the types that are the exact opposite of this. These players actually enjoy combating with the first type, so that they would like to have mobs trained on them so that they would have a reason to fight the mob trainer, or something like that. Kind of like: "Oh shit these reds are attacking me". "Awesome lets go get them"
There ya go, nice and easy. But no, some people dont want you to experience content. Content is only for those who do 5 hour gaming stretches.
hahaha this is one of the funniest posts ever. Comnitus brings alot of persuasive arguments to the table
and this is the kind statement Toquio finds to be wisdom. 8)
I agreed with him. Your games are dead, and the ones that try to live are disfigured old freaks. Cry some more.
it gets even better. brilliant points you bring up there.
popularity = good. not so popular = bad
i'm sure music critics agree with you. jazz and classical for example are horrible genres cuz virtually no kids nowadays listen to them.
btw, there is no MMO for me right now. i play Darkfall casually for a month at a time, TWICE now. and it keeps growing bigger. pretty surprising for the type of game it is. and, i'll refer you to the top of this post since you are about to make some inane comment about how it is still small and will always remain small. so don't think you're gonna enlighten me about that.
meanwhile it is you who is crying that somebody who can actually bring up some relevant points doesn't go along with your brief bites of wisdom. don't get your popcorn all soggy.
I brought no such point. Its making leaps like these that make your points look silly. Whats next, the McDonalds' analogy?
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
I think the answer is pretty easy and theres not really anything strange about it. "hardcores" are usually described as the kind of people that like to win at things or sometimes known as "competitive" players. It would make even more sense to want to socialize with a community they despise so that they can compete and beat them. In a non-pvp game they can show off all their cool stuff and maybe even kill steal if they like that sort of thing. In a pvp game they could go around killing these "people they despise" and possibly even take all their loot, if the game allows it. In addition, more reasons why they would not want to have instances is so they can train mobs on these people they despise and things like that.
However, this is only one type of hardcore player. There are other types, and there are actually the types that are the exact opposite of this. These players actually enjoy combating with the first type, so that they would like to have mobs trained on them so that they would have a reason to fight the mob trainer, or something like that. Kind of like: "Oh shit these reds are attacking me". "Awesome lets go get them"
hear hear. thanks for taking the time to bring up those specific examples that a certain type of people here can't seem to fathom. might simply be in some cases that some of these guys never played any non-bastardized MMOs, and therefore have no possible way of imagining the emergent gameplay that unfolds when you have massive human to human interaction.
the emergent stuff is what draws me into MMO worlds when i personally hate the heart of the "gameplay" of these types of games. so, remove that, and you remove all reason for me having any interest in these "worlds".
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There ya go, nice and easy. But no, some people dont want you to experience content. Content is only for those who do 5 hour gaming stretches.
hahaha this is one of the funniest posts ever. Comnitus brings alot of persuasive arguments to the table
and this is the kind statement Toquio finds to be wisdom. 8)
I agreed with him. Your games are dead, and the ones that try to live are disfigured old freaks. Cry some more.
it gets even better. brilliant points you bring up there.
popularity = good. not so popular = bad
i'm sure music critics agree with you. jazz and classical for example are horrible genres cuz virtually no kids nowadays listen to them.
btw, there is no MMO for me right now. i play Darkfall casually for a month at a time, TWICE now. and it keeps growing bigger. pretty surprising for the type of game it is. and, i'll refer you to the top of this post since you are about to make some inane comment about how it is still small and will always remain small. so don't think you're gonna enlighten me about that.
meanwhile it is you who is crying that somebody who can actually bring up some relevant points doesn't go along with your brief bites of wisdom. don't get your popcorn all soggy.
I brought no such point. Its making leaps like these that make your points look silly. Whats next, the McDonalds' analogy?
my point is you're really not bringing up points (unless its "my tastes = win, your tastes = fail"). thanks for confirming.
just cuz you can spot a similarity (congratulations on that btw) in analogies does not neutralize the analogies.
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There ya go, nice and easy. But no, some people dont want you to experience content. Content is only for those who do 5 hour gaming stretches.
hahaha this is one of the funniest posts ever. Comnitus brings alot of persuasive arguments to the table
and this is the kind statement Toquio finds to be wisdom. 8)
I agreed with him. Your games are dead, and the ones that try to live are disfigured old freaks. Cry some more.
it gets even better. brilliant points you bring up there.
popularity = good. not so popular = bad
i'm sure music critics agree with you. jazz and classical for example are horrible genres cuz virtually no kids nowadays listen to them.
MMORPGs are not music, nor are they fast food, nor are they literally art. Any comparison fails.
I would still say popular=good in the genre since these games are almost always made for one reason, to make money. Now maybe their are some Indy games that would like to break even and make what they want, but I don't really believe that. They want to make what they want and make a lot of money.
I think the answer is pretty easy and theres not really anything strange about it. "hardcores" are usually described as the kind of people that like to win at things or sometimes known as "competitive" players. It would make even more sense to want to socialize with a community they despise so that they can compete and beat them. In a non-pvp game they can show off all their cool stuff and maybe even kill steal if they like that sort of thing. In a pvp game they could go around killing these "people they despise" and possibly even take all their loot, if the game allows it. In addition, more reasons why they would not want to have instances is so they can train mobs on these people they despise and things like that.
However, this is only one type of hardcore player. There are other types, and there are actually the types that are the exact opposite of this. These players actually enjoy combating with the first type, so that they would like to have mobs trained on them so that they would have a reason to fight the mob trainer, or something like that. Kind of like: "Oh shit these reds are attacking me". "Awesome lets go get them"
hear hear. thanks for taking the time to bring up those specific examples that a certain type of people here can't seem to fathom. might simply be in some cases that some of these guys never played any non-bastardized MMOs, and therefore have no possible way of imagining the emergent gameplay that unfolds when you have massive human to human interaction.
the emergent stuff is what draws me into MMO worlds when i personally hate the heart of the "gameplay" of these types of games. so, remove that, and you remove all reason for me having any interest in these "worlds".
I have no problem whatsoever with you preferring one gamestyle over another. What I do have a problem with is the superiority shown towards everyone who prefers other playstyles. Compare the amount of posts made by people whining that soloers are ruining "their" precious games, with the amount of posts made by soloers whining about wanting to solo X.
The "hardcore" or "old school", whatever you want to call them, players, show little else besides complete contempt to contemporary players, or even old players who prefer mmos as they are now.
They want you to have fun too, why cant you wish the same for them and not look down on them as "lesser gamers" then you? That is my question. And its not directed at you solely, but at everyone that has that attitude.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
There ya go, nice and easy. But no, some people dont want you to experience content. Content is only for those who do 5 hour gaming stretches.
hahaha this is one of the funniest posts ever. Comnitus brings alot of persuasive arguments to the table
and this is the kind statement Toquio finds to be wisdom. 8)
I agreed with him. Your games are dead, and the ones that try to live are disfigured old freaks. Cry some more.
it gets even better. brilliant points you bring up there.
popularity = good. not so popular = bad
i'm sure music critics agree with you. jazz and classical for example are horrible genres cuz virtually no kids nowadays listen to them.
MMORPGs are not music, nor are they fast food, nor are they literally art. Any comparison fails.
I would still say popular=good in the genre since these games are almost always made for one reason, to make money. Now maybe their are some Indy games that would like to break even and make what they want, but I don't really believe that. They want to make what they want and make a lot of money.
any comparison fails? lol nothing can ever be compared again. there are absolutely no similarities in trends and logic that applies from one area of life to another area of life. everything exists in a comletely different vacuum with totally different rulesets. 8) ok, sure guy.
you are welcome to make a new thread about philosophies on how to print money the most efficient way possible, or if you insist you can hijack or derail this thread onto that subject, but that's not the conversation i'm participating in.
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I think the answer is pretty easy and theres not really anything strange about it. "hardcores" are usually described as the kind of people that like to win at things or sometimes known as "competitive" players. It would make even more sense to want to socialize with a community they despise so that they can compete and beat them. In a non-pvp game they can show off all their cool stuff and maybe even kill steal if they like that sort of thing. In a pvp game they could go around killing these "people they despise" and possibly even take all their loot, if the game allows it. In addition, more reasons why they would not want to have instances is so they can train mobs on these people they despise and things like that.
However, this is only one type of hardcore player. There are other types, and there are actually the types that are the exact opposite of this. These players actually enjoy combating with the first type, so that they would like to have mobs trained on them so that they would have a reason to fight the mob trainer, or something like that. Kind of like: "Oh shit these reds are attacking me". "Awesome lets go get them"
hear hear. thanks for taking the time to bring up those specific examples that a certain type of people here can't seem to fathom. might simply be in some cases that some of these guys never played any non-bastardized MMOs, and therefore have no possible way of imagining the emergent gameplay that unfolds when you have massive human to human interaction.
the emergent stuff is what draws me into MMO worlds when i personally hate the heart of the "gameplay" of these types of games. so, remove that, and you remove all reason for me having any interest in these "worlds".
I have no problem whatsoever with you preferring one gamestyle over another. What I do have a problem with is the superiority shown towards everyone who prefers other playstyles. Compare the amount of posts made by people whining that soloers are ruining "their" precious games, with the amount of posts made by soloers whining about wanting to solo X.
The "hardcore" or "old school", whatever you want to call them, players, show little else besides complete contempt to contemporary players, or even old players who prefer mmos as they are now.
They want you to have fun too, why cant you wish the same for them and not look down on them as "lesser gamers" then you? That is my question. And its not directed at you solely, but at everyone that has that attitude.
Yeah, I think for me too this is built up over a lot of extra whining done by these players lately for some reason. Holiday stress? I don't know. Its not personal against the OP. I hope he can find a game he can play.
To be honest though, there couldn't be a better time to be an MMORPG player, better computers, better internets, and literally dozens of online games we can loosely call MMORPGs. If you can't find a game you want to play, I think it is likely its not the games availeable, its you.
I have no problem whatsoever with you preferring one gamestyle over another. What I do have a problem with is the superiority shown towards everyone who prefers other playstyles. Compare the amount of posts made by people whining that soloers are ruining "their" precious games, with the amount of posts made by soloers whining about wanting to solo X.
The "hardcore" or "old school", whatever you want to call them, players, show little else besides complete contempt to contemporary players, or even old players who prefer mmos as they are now.
They want you to have fun too, why cant you wish the same for them and not look down on them as "lesser gamers" then you? That is my question. And its not directed at you solely, but at everyone that has that attitude.
Yeah the snobbery and pettiness is mindboggling. No one cares whether or not you played for 15 years or 15 days/weeks. Old school or new school, hardcore or softcore, no particular brand of playstyle/play preference should be seen as better than the rest. Different flavors for different people and I think the old school people really have to start letting go what is old school. There is a reason why its considered old school now and its never because its what's the best thing today, it generally is quite the opposite when people use such terms like old school.
I think some of these people just want to take a dump in someone else's cornflakes because they feel like theirs has already been crapped in. Misery loves company and its futile to even try satisfying the vocal minority. The silent majority doesn't seem to have any real issues with the state of the MMORPG genre/industry currently.
its so obvious that people skim posts and only comment on the silly one-liners and verbal zingery.
quoting myself here to remind a certain person what i said earlier.
ALSO, i don't feel like quoting the other message but if you were actually paying attention i proposed giving everyone a CHOICE in EVERY type of area of the world whether they want it to be public, and HOW populated they wanted those public areas, all the way down to something completely private. total customization. in ALL areas.
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