some people play mmorpgs to throw money out the window on an unentertaining single-player experience where they must always be in a win-win situation without loss or where there are no consequences for losing, and some are more competitive and appreciate playing against and with other players in a more compelling social environment where they wont grow tired of games, like most mmo's, where the world is one big safe-zone of tethered mobile objects that are static and add nothing to the game-play enjoyment or experience, as well as shunning the little school-girl concept of you'll always be a winner.
some people play mmorpgs to throw money out the window on an unentertaining single-player experience where they must always be in a win-win situation without loss or where there are no consequences for losing, and some are more competitive and appreciate playing against and with other players in a more compelling social environment where they wont grow tired of games, like most mmo's, where the world is one big safe-zone of tethered mobile objects that are static and add nothing to the game-play enjoyment or experience, as well as shunning the little school-girl concept of you'll always be a winner.
Considering the subscription numbers of full loot pvp games compared to the win-win safemode games I would say its not "some people" but most people.
personally im on the fence on full loot. while im a casual PVPer. i do enjoy alittle shingdig now and again.
but as most mmos now days try to push special items and gear... the thought of losing a once in a life time quest item or a ultra-rare item.. really doesnt appeal to me.
why should i waste say 3 months working away farming.. questing.. pvping.. ect to get an ultra uber 1337 rare stick of beatery.. only to get PKed while resting after getting it by some random person and losing the item?? its really not enjoyable for the person who lost the gear.
now if the game says have no special gear. all gear is (white named) and can be bought or crafted fairly cheaply enough WELL owell i lost my 30g metal spork of eating.. ill just have to craft/buy another one. thats fine for full loot. as honestly the downtime is manageable.
its when games do like WoW and a ton of other games that use limited edition special gear you cant really get easy or at all.. start doing full loot it starts to become unenjoyable and a chore. as now your without your special gear and you have to replace all the hard to replace stuff
PVP and PVP full loot are fine as they are. so long as the game puts limitations on what can be lost. as honestly who wants to lose the fork of truth to some lowbie after spending a year crafting/farming it?
some people play mmorpgs to throw money out the window on an unentertaining single-player experience where they must always be in a win-win situation without loss or where there are no consequences for losing, and some are more competitive and appreciate playing against and with other players in a more compelling social environment where they wont grow tired of games, like most mmo's, where the world is one big safe-zone of tethered mobile objects that are static and add nothing to the game-play enjoyment or experience, as well as shunning the little school-girl concept of you'll always be a winner.
Considering the subscription numbers of full loot pvp games compared to the win-win safemode games I would say its not "some people" but most people.
And considering it is the majority, one has to wonder which side has the better wisdom? Bitter minority like Cik who has to use hideous terms to pretentiously insult the majority, or the majority who does not even care who Cik is, and enjoy their life and game.
Your view my view, and I have not yet stated my view.
some people play mmorpgs to throw money out the window on an unentertaining single-player experience where they must always be in a win-win situation without loss or where there are no consequences for losing, and some are more competitive and appreciate playing against and with other players in a more compelling social environment where they wont grow tired of games, like most mmo's, where the world is one big safe-zone of tethered mobile objects that are static and add nothing to the game-play enjoyment or experience, as well as shunning the little school-girl concept of you'll always be a winner.
Considering the subscription numbers of full loot pvp games compared to the win-win safemode games I would say its not "some people" but most people.
Yeah, but not all games are marketed on the same level or have the public eye or budgets that some games do. It's an unfair comparison. I bet we would see a lot more subs in games like EVE or DFO if they had better marketing or bigger budgets such as games like WoW, Warhammer or Aion did.
some people play mmorpgs to throw money out the window on an unentertaining single-player experience where they must always be in a win-win situation without loss or where there are no consequences for losing, and some are more competitive and appreciate playing against and with other players in a more compelling social environment where they wont grow tired of games, like most mmo's, where the world is one big safe-zone of tethered mobile objects that are static and add nothing to the game-play enjoyment or experience, as well as shunning the little school-girl concept of you'll always be a winner.
Considering the subscription numbers of full loot pvp games compared to the win-win safemode games I would say its not "some people" but most people.
Yeah, but not all games are marketed on the same level or have the public eye or budgets that some games do. It's an unfair comparison. I bet we would see a lot more subs in games like EVE or DFO if they had better marketing or bigger budgets such as games like WoW, Warhammer or Aion did.
yeah EVE actually puts their budget on development
and DFO dont really have much budget left for marketing, being new indy company and all...
(oh man this feels like a bait post to me oh well lets go for it)
the problem with people not wanting full loot is because they dont realize that for that system to work the market needs to be different.
Are you talking about the games market, or the item economy?
The games market isn't changing. People like what they like, and that's not to have their time wasted (which is the base reason full loot gets friction.)
The item economy of a game can vary though.
Planetside had mass market appeal with it's full loot system. Losing loot cost you nothing (gained for free on respawn), but potentially gained your opponent something (ammo and/or your empire's unique weaponry.) Nothing about the system wastes peoples' time, and that's why it's such a great system.
It's only when you pair Full Loot with Loot Which Costs Time that you start stepping on toes. Partially because the more Time loot costs, the less the game will actually be about PVP. Which puts a pretty heavy burden on the non-PVP activities (and honestly I think games like EVE and Darkfall have terribly grindy/boring crafting systems for games where this ends up being a necessary activity.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
the problem with people not wanting full loot is because they dont realize that for that system to work the market needs to be different.
Are you talking about the games market, or the item economy?
The games market isn't changing. People like what they like, and that's not to have their time wasted (which is the base reason full loot gets friction.)
The item economy of a game can vary though.
Planetside had mass market appeal with it's full loot system. Losing loot cost you nothing (gained for free on respawn), but potentially gained your opponent something (ammo and/or your empire's unique weaponry.) Nothing about the system wastes peoples' time, and that's why it's such a great system.
It's only when you pair Full Loot with Loot Which Costs Time that you start stepping on toes. Partially because the more Time loot costs, the less the game will actually be about PVP. Which puts a pretty heavy burden on the non-PVP activities (and honestly I think games like EVE and Darkfall have terribly grindy/boring crafting systems for games where this ends up being a necessary activity.)
i thought item economy and game market where the same, but acording to your definitions i was talking about the item economy, the game market can be anything you want, even player to player trading only, i could not care less about it
and exacly, full loot and "loot based games" (meaning you get your items 95% from loot) do not mix. Full loot and crafted based games (meaning you get your items 95% from crafter) that might work perfectly fine
actually ( i cant speak for darkfall... yet) in eve, yes high sec mining is terribly boring and very grindy. but think of it as the starter mining career, later on mining is done in dangerous places where you can get hit by anything and anyone. so you need organization: surveillance team, guard team, hauling team and (of course) mining team. so you go from being safe and boring to being unsafe and exciting and nerve wrecking. and with that you make the high end "expensive" shit
i just know in eve if there are no miners and crafters then there are no ships and fighters.
P.S. the important part of the post is in green, the rest is just a clarification.
some people play mmorpgs to throw money out the window on an unentertaining single-player experience where they must always be in a win-win situation without loss or where there are no consequences for losing, and some are more competitive and appreciate playing against and with other players in a more compelling social environment where they wont grow tired of games, like most mmo's, where the world is one big safe-zone of tethered mobile objects that are static and add nothing to the game-play enjoyment or experience, as well as shunning the little school-girl concept of you'll always be a winner.
Considering the subscription numbers of full loot pvp games compared to the win-win safemode games I would say its not "some people" but most people.
Yeah, but not all games are marketed on the same level or have the public eye or budgets that some games do. It's an unfair comparison. I bet we would see a lot more subs in games like EVE or DFO if they had better marketing or bigger budgets such as games like WoW, Warhammer or Aion did.
Marketing will NOT sell subscriptions to a game people won't like. It might sell some boxes, but theres no profit in that. Eve could have commercials on 24/7 and it won't do a darn thing for them. Actually, Eve would implode with millions of players. The game couldn't handle itself and would lose everything that makes it what it is But millions of people will never have any interest in a game like Eve or DFO, so it doesn't matter.
Eve already has millions of people who know about the game anyway. Gamespy has covered it. Its been reviewed in magazines. Millions know about but don't care. DFO is too poor quality of MMO. Sinking loads of money into it won't change its core ruleset which people DO NOT LIKE. All the graphics, budget and marketing wouldn't do a things. SWG is a prime example of that. Massive budget. Biggest IP in gaming and popularity. Loads of advertising. It basically failed and had to be changed drastically just to stay afloat. WAR and AOC both had big bidgets ands decent marketing and LOADS of hype and it did nothing except sell a bunch of boxes the first month. Now both games have a playerbase less than DAOC back in 2002.
WOW sold millions BEFORE the marketing started by the way. It was all word of mouth and critical praise in the first year that got the ball rolling.
So what I understand up to now is that peoples do not like the feeling that they can loose something? Inst that boring? To know that there is no wrong way so whatever you do is right? Where is the challenge? Where is the reward?
Faulty premise. I loose enough in the games that I play. I just don't GIVE it to you (the general 'you' full loot PvPer).
And I get enough challenge out of events in real life, career and relationships. Don't need a game to fill that void that some seem to have in their life.
_____________________________ Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Come get your stuff stolen,After working to get it.......Most people don't like getting robbed whether it is virtual or real life.
A.People hate losing
B.People hate losing stuff
C.People hate having said stuff taken from by people who they think don't deserve it
Those three things combine is what full loot not fun for some people and most case all you need is two out of the three to stop you from playing the game and sometimes just one
FFA PvP games and servers have a tendency to start strong and dwindle to nothing.
Even the "hardcore" stop playing when the only opponents left are better then they are.
As time goes by, the worst players on the server move on to other games they maybe more competitive in. This process continues until you end up with a server like DAoC's Mordred, or Shadowbane.
Adding loot to that equation does not fix the fundamental problem. That problem being people aren't gonna stick around to lose again and again. Only an insane person plays a game to lose.
If you want to make Full Loot viable, I think you need a few things.
1) Forced Teams, either through faction or race. Everyone wants an ally, or a target they don't have to worry about and may even help without fear of being murdered.
2) System for preparing, protecting your valuables. Even Darkfall has a bank system, Everquests Rallos Zek wouldn't let them loot stuff from your bags, can't make it to harsh. The system has to stop the weakest people from quitting.
3) Objectives larger then One Person. DAoC had keeps, but beyond that it had Relics. Relics were a realm wide objective that benefited everyone, and penalized the opposing team if lost. (by removing the bonus from them)
4) Indepth crafting system, that is very demanding and involved. No craftbot system will work, it has to be so harsh and involved that people who devote themselves to trades have something to be proud of. People should see a Master Crafter and be in awe cause that person accomplished one of the hardest aspects in the entire game. It needs to be so hard that only a fraction ever get to the master level, even though an average tradesmen maybe a dime a dozen.
These things give people who are the lowest skilled on the server stuff to do with pride.
You need to create an environment where the wolves and sheep can both find tasks they enjoy. Without grass you have no sheep, without sheep you have no wolves. Sheep are always the weakest players on a FFA Server.
I think Eve does much of this. I've never played Eve, but from what i've heard it fulfills a variety of niches within its universe.
Nothing excites jaded Grandmasters more than a theoretical novelty
I play, and thouroughly enjoy, EvE. I generally don't like getting killed and losing stuff. More often then not though, I lose more in replacing implants then i do lost fittings/cargo. That said, I enjoy the game immensly and that minimizes any frustration I might feel at losing in-game things. The point being, if the game is good enough, then, in my opinion, a full-loot mechanic will generally not be the feature that drives away players.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Having a great time in DFO, I must say. I like full loot, it adds a certian rank and file atmosphere to the game. I am one soldier and I must make many suits of armor.
Full llooting goes both ways. I have died several times and lost my gear, but I have looted my fair share of better gear than i can make or buy currently. Even got lucky and snatched a few mounts.
Full loot is the only game style I will probably play for now on.
Having a great time in DFO, I must say. I like full loot, it adds a certian rank and file atmosphere to the game. I am one soldier and I must make many suits of armor. Full llooting goes both ways. I have died several times and lost my gear, but I have looted my fair share of better gear than i can make or buy currently. Even got lucky and snatched a few mounts. Full loot is the only game style I will probably play for now on.
How often do you go out in your best armor ? Or better yet does gear you lose even matter? And if losing the loot/armor does not matter game how is the game any different non loot game.
Having a great time in DFO, I must say. I like full loot, it adds a certian rank and file atmosphere to the game. I am one soldier and I must make many suits of armor. Full llooting goes both ways. I have died several times and lost my gear, but I have looted my fair share of better gear than i can make or buy currently. Even got lucky and snatched a few mounts. Full loot is the only game style I will probably play for now on.
How often do you go out in your best armor ? Or better yet does gear you lose even matter? And if losing the loot/armor does not matter game how is the game any different non loot game.
I
I go out in my best armor every time I get ganked. Armor matters alot. The difference from naked to even chain is noticeable.
If you cannot see the reason to enjoy full loot pvp games, you wouldnt understand the charm of it all
Having a great time in DFO, I must say. I like full loot, it adds a certian rank and file atmosphere to the game. I am one soldier and I must make many suits of armor. Full llooting goes both ways. I have died several times and lost my gear, but I have looted my fair share of better gear than i can make or buy currently. Even got lucky and snatched a few mounts. Full loot is the only game style I will probably play for now on.
How often do you go out in your best armor ? Or better yet does gear you lose even matter? And if losing the loot/armor does not matter game how is the game any different non loot game.
ill give you my eve example, i go out in my T2 fitted nighthawk (expensive) ship when im doing important corp (read:guild or clan) stuff like defending home system or doing a massive assault, and i will take my throwaway pvp ships when i go out by myself or with a small gang to cause havoc behind enemy lines.
and the gear we lose does matter, it will reduce the damage taken or hell i dont know... a sword to hit some one with? its better than running around with no armor at all dont you think? now what armor you wear depends on how much are you willing to risk, or lose.
an important rule of eve online that every pilot is told by the rookie channel, by people in local or just by anyone in the game, do not fly a ship you can't aford to lose.
in a full loot pvp game (where lost stuff is much easier to replace than the tier 27, 3 month dungeon raid grind) people wear what they are willing to risk. and you know fully well when you go out that you might lose that ship.
every time i click the undock button from a station i know that there is a great chance that this ship (and its contents) will never dock again.
so my throwaway ships may cost between 20-50 million isk (because i know i can replace them and their fittings with the isk i have now or 1-2 lvl 4 missions) someone else may take his nighthawk out as a throwaway ship because he has 4-5 times its value in the bank and can replace it without problem.
i recently lost my manticore (stealth bomber 30-40M worth) and all i said was, meh ill get another. but someone who just started playing a few months ago (even if he can fly a manticore) should not take it out because 30-40 million is to much for him/her and will take a great loss.
so in full loot pvp games, people wear what they are willing to risk. The wealthier you are, the more you can "risk" and "lose" and still enjoy the game, and they know perfectly well that that armor/ship sword/laser might not come back with them to base.
Having a great time in DFO, I must say. I like full loot, it adds a certian rank and file atmosphere to the game. I am one soldier and I must make many suits of armor. Full llooting goes both ways. I have died several times and lost my gear, but I have looted my fair share of better gear than i can make or buy currently. Even got lucky and snatched a few mounts. Full loot is the only game style I will probably play for now on.
How often do you go out in your best armor ? Or better yet does gear you lose even matter? And if losing the loot/armor does not matter game how is the game any different non loot game.
I
I go out in my best armor every time I get ganked. Armor matters alot. The difference from naked to even chain is noticeable.
If you cannot see the reason to enjoy full loot pvp games, you wouldnt understand the charm of it all
Lets try this:
If you cannot see the reason to detest full loot pvp games, you wouldn't understand the folly of it all.
Having a great time in DFO, I must say. I like full loot, it adds a certian rank and file atmosphere to the game. I am one soldier and I must make many suits of armor. Full llooting goes both ways. I have died several times and lost my gear, but I have looted my fair share of better gear than i can make or buy currently. Even got lucky and snatched a few mounts. Full loot is the only game style I will probably play for now on.
How often do you go out in your best armor ? Or better yet does gear you lose even matter? And if losing the loot/armor does not matter game how is the game any different non loot game.
I
I go out in my best armor every time I get ganked. Armor matters alot. The difference from naked to even chain is noticeable.
If you cannot see the reason to enjoy full loot pvp games, you wouldnt understand the charm of it all
Lets try this:
If you cannot see the reason to detest full loot pvp games, you wouldn't understand the folly of it all.
Very nice reasoning you have there, pal
lulz someone peed in your soup this morning? I enjoy the full loot system. I do not think you like it. Im fine with you not liking it. Im gonna play my full loot game and have a fun time. You are going to play your not full loot game and have a fun time.
Having a great time in DFO, I must say. I like full loot, it adds a certian rank and file atmosphere to the game. I am one soldier and I must make many suits of armor. Full llooting goes both ways. I have died several times and lost my gear, but I have looted my fair share of better gear than i can make or buy currently. Even got lucky and snatched a few mounts. Full loot is the only game style I will probably play for now on.
How often do you go out in your best armor ? Or better yet does gear you lose even matter? And if losing the loot/armor does not matter game how is the game any different non loot game.
I
I go out in my best armor every time I get ganked. Armor matters alot. The difference from naked to even chain is noticeable.
If you cannot see the reason to enjoy full loot pvp games, you wouldnt understand the charm of it all
Lets try this:
If you cannot see the reason to detest full loot pvp games, you wouldn't understand the folly of it all.
Very nice reasoning you have there, pal
lulz someone peed in your soup this morning? I enjoy the full loot system. I do not think you like it. Im fine with you not liking it. Im gonna play my full loot game and have a fun time. You are going to play your not full loot game and have a fun time.
LoLs
No one pee on me, I am alone in my room withonly my secretaries outside and no clients today, its holiday. I only need to tie up lose ends before another tour thru the new year.
What I am saying above, is that you only put up a tautology. You have to elaborate further before we know what is the fun you are talking about. At the end of the day, everyone has his view about what is fun for him.
I play different kinds of game, and I maintain multiple subs. I now have Eve, WoW and CoH, plus lifetime for LOTRo. I once enjoy hardmode Diablo, true perma death. I also enjoyed playing a very silly fishing game with my sister's toddler. I basically enjoy anything I feel fun at that moment, and move on the moment I feel something else is waving at me. I am not defined by a single game, I am not married to a single kind of gameplay, I do not derive anything from a game that I take away when I log out. Imagine a dream, once you wake up, its gone. That, for me, is a game.
I played full loot games before, Koreans ones, local Korean games in early 2000s which were never translated to English. Bloody gang wars. Nothing special about it. Winning or losing is just an outcome, after an hour, I log out, end of it, till next time I log on again. What is the big deal about loot? Its a big deal if I enjoy it loot or no loot. FUN is everything, loot is just part of the formulae that makes it fun or otherwise.
full loot games work better as FPS then mmos. as FPS the only thing you lose when you die is time and a kit. the kit is replaced at revive/respawn. the time is spent working back up to where you did.
when your forced to grind days..weeks.. months even to make "pvp" gear and lose it all in 1 battle it becomes almost a chore to replace. OH sure you can argue, "dont go out in your finery" but honestly. why wouldnt you pvp in armor that gives you even 10% resist to most attacks and high defence bonuses over say ... garbage gear that you have 0% resist and has mediocre defence? if im going to spend months grinding XP and harvesting junk to make gear that should boost my stats or survivablitly in PVP why wouldnt i equip it when i go off to pvp?? who cares about building the best 1337 looking gear only to use it as a trophy rack??
but again we fall back to the chore aspect of most mmos and that is harvest/grinding material to craft decent items and gear. even if you multi client a crafter bot to just spend all day crafting you will still have to waste time collecting. even if your doing 2 toons at a time. most people get rather bored with having to craft the same gear over and over because they got jumped and butchered in a 10 vs 1 battle. (yes 10 vs 1 happens alot in most mmos... debate all you want most hardcore pvpers rarely go out solo) so honestly where is the thrill and enjoyment recrafting and recrafting over and over again???
i have seen semi-full loot. and full loot games work well and fail horribly.. it ultimatly comes down to how the gear is built. if its npc buyable or not. either way, as much fun as full pvp/looting goes. it gets boring having to replace gear time and again. least of all your "special" gear. i personally think that is why many people both like and dislike full loot.
some people have lots of time to craft gear over and over, and others do not. both have enough time to pvp and collect the loot of the dead but it all falls down to time.
even the best pvp/looter will get ganked at some point and there gear is all gone lol
i thought item economy and game market where the same, and exacly, full loot and "loot based games" (meaning you get your items 95% from loot) do not mix. Full loot and crafted based games (meaning you get your items 95% from crafter) that might work perfectly fine
In your previous post it sounded like you were talking about whether there was a market for the game (as in: whether people will pay money for it.) That's the "game market" I was referring to, but like you said you were talking about item economy.
I disagree about Looting vs. Crafting. You're only thinking of existing game implementations.
Functionally, Looting and Crafting are identical: they're sources of items. The main difference is typically combat is more fun than gathering/crafting.
Here's a couple of the ways full loot games could be improved:
A. Make gathering/crafting fun. If it's as fun as the main gameplay activities (like PVP) then less people will complain when the game demands they spend time doing it. Of course "make it more fun" is easier said than done.
B. Have PVE Loot be a primary source of items. The item you create from 30 mins of gathering/crafting would be bought from a store (which sells all items in the game) for gold -- the same amount of gold you'd be expected to get in 30 mins of PVE farming. To make things interesting you would likely not just have gold, but unique tokens for specific types of gear.
The main point being that if you think crafting-based games work, you should also think PVE-based games work...because often PVE is at least as fun as crafting (often more fun.)
However my earlier point was that having items be time-consuming at all is what weakens these games. If a game is about PVP, it should be about PVP and that should be the main thing you're doing all the time.
As soon as you attach a, "you died, go PVE farm (or craft) for 30 minutes" penalty to the game, it's not about PVP anymore. It's about sitting around doing the boring farming activity so you can periodically enjoy the actual gameplay. If the farming is fun too, it's not a problem. But in every game I've played like this, the farming isn't particularly fun.
Just doesn't make sense to create a game that constantly sends players to the "no fun timeout zone." Again, I prefer Planetside's solution:
You have access to your empire-specific items, and a generic item pool.
Items are free and instantly regained upon death. (keeps the focus on the fun gameplay: PVP.)
The items you can use are determined by advancement choices (Tank cert to drive a tank, Heavy Weapons to use the big guns, etc)
Your corpse can be looted by the enemy, letting them restock ammo or make use of your empire-specific items that they don't have access to.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The real problem with full loot is when it takes a long time to replace it.
If you can replace the stuff fast, you have the potential to keep more players in a game where you need to grind a lot to get the stuff.
In a gear based game where you raid to get the gear, or have to spend a lot of time to get it in another way the potential player base is a lot smaller.
I think you will find very few players that are willing to spend a month or more to get a good set of gear just to have it swiped because they lag or get ganked by a bunch of people.
In a FPS game you replace the stuff almost directly. To have full loot in a game like Wow or EQ2 however would leave very few potential players.
I could think this as some kind of formula, full loot in itself can have quite a few players, you see that in any FPS game but the more you have to grind to get the gear the fewer players the game will have.
So I don't believe it is the full loot in itself that turns of most players. If you made a MMO like Runequest that is so skill based that the gear is easy to get you could have a rather large playerbase.
DFO is kinda between the extremes, making it possible to run the game but not enough for it to have several 100K players.
Anyway: Full loot in itself isn't bad. Full loot + gear grind is.
I don't see the OP mentioning PvP anywhere. I just want to say that i would like the idea with mobs looting me when i have failed to kill them. Why do full loot have to be pvp only?
Comments
some people play mmorpgs to throw money out the window on an unentertaining single-player experience where they must always be in a win-win situation without loss or where there are no consequences for losing, and some are more competitive and appreciate playing against and with other players in a more compelling social environment where they wont grow tired of games, like most mmo's, where the world is one big safe-zone of tethered mobile objects that are static and add nothing to the game-play enjoyment or experience, as well as shunning the little school-girl concept of you'll always be a winner.
Considering the subscription numbers of full loot pvp games compared to the win-win safemode games I would say its not "some people" but most people.
personally im on the fence on full loot. while im a casual PVPer. i do enjoy alittle shingdig now and again.
but as most mmos now days try to push special items and gear... the thought of losing a once in a life time quest item or a ultra-rare item.. really doesnt appeal to me.
why should i waste say 3 months working away farming.. questing.. pvping.. ect to get an ultra uber 1337 rare stick of beatery.. only to get PKed while resting after getting it by some random person and losing the item?? its really not enjoyable for the person who lost the gear.
now if the game says have no special gear. all gear is (white named) and can be bought or crafted fairly cheaply enough WELL owell i lost my 30g metal spork of eating.. ill just have to craft/buy another one. thats fine for full loot. as honestly the downtime is manageable.
its when games do like WoW and a ton of other games that use limited edition special gear you cant really get easy or at all.. start doing full loot it starts to become unenjoyable and a chore. as now your without your special gear and you have to replace all the hard to replace stuff
PVP and PVP full loot are fine as they are. so long as the game puts limitations on what can be lost. as honestly who wants to lose the fork of truth to some lowbie after spending a year crafting/farming it?
Yeah i can't handle it because its waste of time.
Considering the subscription numbers of full loot pvp games compared to the win-win safemode games I would say its not "some people" but most people.
And considering it is the majority, one has to wonder which side has the better wisdom? Bitter minority like Cik who has to use hideous terms to pretentiously insult the majority, or the majority who does not even care who Cik is, and enjoy their life and game.
Your view my view, and I have not yet stated my view.
Considering the subscription numbers of full loot pvp games compared to the win-win safemode games I would say its not "some people" but most people.
Yeah, but not all games are marketed on the same level or have the public eye or budgets that some games do. It's an unfair comparison. I bet we would see a lot more subs in games like EVE or DFO if they had better marketing or bigger budgets such as games like WoW, Warhammer or Aion did.
Considering the subscription numbers of full loot pvp games compared to the win-win safemode games I would say its not "some people" but most people.
Yeah, but not all games are marketed on the same level or have the public eye or budgets that some games do. It's an unfair comparison. I bet we would see a lot more subs in games like EVE or DFO if they had better marketing or bigger budgets such as games like WoW, Warhammer or Aion did.
yeah EVE actually puts their budget on development
and DFO dont really have much budget left for marketing, being new indy company and all...
(oh man this feels like a bait post to me oh well lets go for it)
Are you talking about the games market, or the item economy?
The games market isn't changing. People like what they like, and that's not to have their time wasted (which is the base reason full loot gets friction.)
The item economy of a game can vary though.
Planetside had mass market appeal with it's full loot system. Losing loot cost you nothing (gained for free on respawn), but potentially gained your opponent something (ammo and/or your empire's unique weaponry.) Nothing about the system wastes peoples' time, and that's why it's such a great system.
It's only when you pair Full Loot with Loot Which Costs Time that you start stepping on toes. Partially because the more Time loot costs, the less the game will actually be about PVP. Which puts a pretty heavy burden on the non-PVP activities (and honestly I think games like EVE and Darkfall have terribly grindy/boring crafting systems for games where this ends up being a necessary activity.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Are you talking about the games market, or the item economy?
The games market isn't changing. People like what they like, and that's not to have their time wasted (which is the base reason full loot gets friction.)
The item economy of a game can vary though.
Planetside had mass market appeal with it's full loot system. Losing loot cost you nothing (gained for free on respawn), but potentially gained your opponent something (ammo and/or your empire's unique weaponry.) Nothing about the system wastes peoples' time, and that's why it's such a great system.
It's only when you pair Full Loot with Loot Which Costs Time that you start stepping on toes. Partially because the more Time loot costs, the less the game will actually be about PVP. Which puts a pretty heavy burden on the non-PVP activities (and honestly I think games like EVE and Darkfall have terribly grindy/boring crafting systems for games where this ends up being a necessary activity.)
i thought item economy and game market where the same, but acording to your definitions i was talking about the item economy, the game market can be anything you want, even player to player trading only, i could not care less about it
and exacly, full loot and "loot based games" (meaning you get your items 95% from loot) do not mix. Full loot and crafted based games (meaning you get your items 95% from crafter) that might work perfectly fine
actually ( i cant speak for darkfall... yet) in eve, yes high sec mining is terribly boring and very grindy. but think of it as the starter mining career, later on mining is done in dangerous places where you can get hit by anything and anyone. so you need organization: surveillance team, guard team, hauling team and (of course) mining team. so you go from being safe and boring to being unsafe and exciting and nerve wrecking. and with that you make the high end "expensive" shit
i just know in eve if there are no miners and crafters then there are no ships and fighters.
P.S. the important part of the post is in green, the rest is just a clarification.
Considering the subscription numbers of full loot pvp games compared to the win-win safemode games I would say its not "some people" but most people.
Yeah, but not all games are marketed on the same level or have the public eye or budgets that some games do. It's an unfair comparison. I bet we would see a lot more subs in games like EVE or DFO if they had better marketing or bigger budgets such as games like WoW, Warhammer or Aion did.
Marketing will NOT sell subscriptions to a game people won't like. It might sell some boxes, but theres no profit in that. Eve could have commercials on 24/7 and it won't do a darn thing for them. Actually, Eve would implode with millions of players. The game couldn't handle itself and would lose everything that makes it what it is But millions of people will never have any interest in a game like Eve or DFO, so it doesn't matter.
Eve already has millions of people who know about the game anyway. Gamespy has covered it. Its been reviewed in magazines. Millions know about but don't care. DFO is too poor quality of MMO. Sinking loads of money into it won't change its core ruleset which people DO NOT LIKE. All the graphics, budget and marketing wouldn't do a things. SWG is a prime example of that. Massive budget. Biggest IP in gaming and popularity. Loads of advertising. It basically failed and had to be changed drastically just to stay afloat. WAR and AOC both had big bidgets ands decent marketing and LOADS of hype and it did nothing except sell a bunch of boxes the first month. Now both games have a playerbase less than DAOC back in 2002.
WOW sold millions BEFORE the marketing started by the way. It was all word of mouth and critical praise in the first year that got the ball rolling.
Faulty premise. I loose enough in the games that I play. I just don't GIVE it to you (the general 'you' full loot PvPer).
And I get enough challenge out of events in real life, career and relationships. Don't need a game to fill that void that some seem to have in their life.
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Come get your stuff stolen,After working to get it.......Most people don't like getting robbed whether it is virtual or real life.
A.People hate losing
B.People hate losing stuff
C.People hate having said stuff taken from by people who they think don't deserve it
Those three things combine is what full loot not fun for some people and most case all you need is two out of the three to stop you from playing the game and sometimes just one
FFA PvP games and servers have a tendency to start strong and dwindle to nothing.
Even the "hardcore" stop playing when the only opponents left are better then they are.
As time goes by, the worst players on the server move on to other games they maybe more competitive in. This process continues until you end up with a server like DAoC's Mordred, or Shadowbane.
Adding loot to that equation does not fix the fundamental problem. That problem being people aren't gonna stick around to lose again and again. Only an insane person plays a game to lose.
If you want to make Full Loot viable, I think you need a few things.
1) Forced Teams, either through faction or race. Everyone wants an ally, or a target they don't have to worry about and may even help without fear of being murdered.
2) System for preparing, protecting your valuables. Even Darkfall has a bank system, Everquests Rallos Zek wouldn't let them loot stuff from your bags, can't make it to harsh. The system has to stop the weakest people from quitting.
3) Objectives larger then One Person. DAoC had keeps, but beyond that it had Relics. Relics were a realm wide objective that benefited everyone, and penalized the opposing team if lost. (by removing the bonus from them)
4) Indepth crafting system, that is very demanding and involved. No craftbot system will work, it has to be so harsh and involved that people who devote themselves to trades have something to be proud of. People should see a Master Crafter and be in awe cause that person accomplished one of the hardest aspects in the entire game. It needs to be so hard that only a fraction ever get to the master level, even though an average tradesmen maybe a dime a dozen.
These things give people who are the lowest skilled on the server stuff to do with pride.
You need to create an environment where the wolves and sheep can both find tasks they enjoy. Without grass you have no sheep, without sheep you have no wolves. Sheep are always the weakest players on a FFA Server.
I think Eve does much of this. I've never played Eve, but from what i've heard it fulfills a variety of niches within its universe.
Nothing excites jaded Grandmasters more than a theoretical novelty
I play, and thouroughly enjoy, EvE. I generally don't like getting killed and losing stuff. More often then not though, I lose more in replacing implants then i do lost fittings/cargo. That said, I enjoy the game immensly and that minimizes any frustration I might feel at losing in-game things. The point being, if the game is good enough, then, in my opinion, a full-loot mechanic will generally not be the feature that drives away players.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Having a great time in DFO, I must say. I like full loot, it adds a certian rank and file atmosphere to the game. I am one soldier and I must make many suits of armor.
Full llooting goes both ways. I have died several times and lost my gear, but I have looted my fair share of better gear than i can make or buy currently. Even got lucky and snatched a few mounts.
Full loot is the only game style I will probably play for now on.
How often do you go out in your best armor ? Or better yet does gear you lose even matter? And if losing the loot/armor does not matter game how is the game any different non loot game.
How often do you go out in your best armor ? Or better yet does gear you lose even matter? And if losing the loot/armor does not matter game how is the game any different non loot game.
I
I go out in my best armor every time I get ganked. Armor matters alot. The difference from naked to even chain is noticeable.
If you cannot see the reason to enjoy full loot pvp games, you wouldnt understand the charm of it all
How often do you go out in your best armor ? Or better yet does gear you lose even matter? And if losing the loot/armor does not matter game how is the game any different non loot game.
ill give you my eve example, i go out in my T2 fitted nighthawk (expensive) ship when im doing important corp (read:guild or clan) stuff like defending home system or doing a massive assault, and i will take my throwaway pvp ships when i go out by myself or with a small gang to cause havoc behind enemy lines.
and the gear we lose does matter, it will reduce the damage taken or hell i dont know... a sword to hit some one with? its better than running around with no armor at all dont you think? now what armor you wear depends on how much are you willing to risk, or lose.
an important rule of eve online that every pilot is told by the rookie channel, by people in local or just by anyone in the game, do not fly a ship you can't aford to lose.
in a full loot pvp game (where lost stuff is much easier to replace than the tier 27, 3 month dungeon raid grind) people wear what they are willing to risk. and you know fully well when you go out that you might lose that ship.
every time i click the undock button from a station i know that there is a great chance that this ship (and its contents) will never dock again.
so my throwaway ships may cost between 20-50 million isk (because i know i can replace them and their fittings with the isk i have now or 1-2 lvl 4 missions) someone else may take his nighthawk out as a throwaway ship because he has 4-5 times its value in the bank and can replace it without problem.
i recently lost my manticore (stealth bomber 30-40M worth) and all i said was, meh ill get another. but someone who just started playing a few months ago (even if he can fly a manticore) should not take it out because 30-40 million is to much for him/her and will take a great loss.
so in full loot pvp games, people wear what they are willing to risk. The wealthier you are, the more you can "risk" and "lose" and still enjoy the game, and they know perfectly well that that armor/ship sword/laser might not come back with them to base.
How often do you go out in your best armor ? Or better yet does gear you lose even matter? And if losing the loot/armor does not matter game how is the game any different non loot game.
I
I go out in my best armor every time I get ganked. Armor matters alot. The difference from naked to even chain is noticeable.
If you cannot see the reason to enjoy full loot pvp games, you wouldnt understand the charm of it all
Lets try this:
If you cannot see the reason to detest full loot pvp games, you wouldn't understand the folly of it all.
Very nice reasoning you have there, pal.
How often do you go out in your best armor ? Or better yet does gear you lose even matter? And if losing the loot/armor does not matter game how is the game any different non loot game.
I
I go out in my best armor every time I get ganked. Armor matters alot. The difference from naked to even chain is noticeable.
If you cannot see the reason to enjoy full loot pvp games, you wouldnt understand the charm of it all
Lets try this:
If you cannot see the reason to detest full loot pvp games, you wouldn't understand the folly of it all.
Very nice reasoning you have there, pal
lulz someone peed in your soup this morning? I enjoy the full loot system. I do not think you like it. Im fine with you not liking it. Im gonna play my full loot game and have a fun time. You are going to play your not full loot game and have a fun time.
How often do you go out in your best armor ? Or better yet does gear you lose even matter? And if losing the loot/armor does not matter game how is the game any different non loot game.
I
I go out in my best armor every time I get ganked. Armor matters alot. The difference from naked to even chain is noticeable.
If you cannot see the reason to enjoy full loot pvp games, you wouldnt understand the charm of it all
Lets try this:
If you cannot see the reason to detest full loot pvp games, you wouldn't understand the folly of it all.
Very nice reasoning you have there, pal
lulz someone peed in your soup this morning? I enjoy the full loot system. I do not think you like it. Im fine with you not liking it. Im gonna play my full loot game and have a fun time. You are going to play your not full loot game and have a fun time.
LoLs
No one pee on me, I am alone in my room withonly my secretaries outside and no clients today, its holiday. I only need to tie up lose ends before another tour thru the new year.
What I am saying above, is that you only put up a tautology. You have to elaborate further before we know what is the fun you are talking about. At the end of the day, everyone has his view about what is fun for him.
I play different kinds of game, and I maintain multiple subs. I now have Eve, WoW and CoH, plus lifetime for LOTRo. I once enjoy hardmode Diablo, true perma death. I also enjoyed playing a very silly fishing game with my sister's toddler. I basically enjoy anything I feel fun at that moment, and move on the moment I feel something else is waving at me. I am not defined by a single game, I am not married to a single kind of gameplay, I do not derive anything from a game that I take away when I log out. Imagine a dream, once you wake up, its gone. That, for me, is a game.
I played full loot games before, Koreans ones, local Korean games in early 2000s which were never translated to English. Bloody gang wars. Nothing special about it. Winning or losing is just an outcome, after an hour, I log out, end of it, till next time I log on again. What is the big deal about loot? Its a big deal if I enjoy it loot or no loot. FUN is everything, loot is just part of the formulae that makes it fun or otherwise.
My view your view.
full loot games work better as FPS then mmos. as FPS the only thing you lose when you die is time and a kit. the kit is replaced at revive/respawn. the time is spent working back up to where you did.
when your forced to grind days..weeks.. months even to make "pvp" gear and lose it all in 1 battle it becomes almost a chore to replace. OH sure you can argue, "dont go out in your finery" but honestly. why wouldnt you pvp in armor that gives you even 10% resist to most attacks and high defence bonuses over say ... garbage gear that you have 0% resist and has mediocre defence? if im going to spend months grinding XP and harvesting junk to make gear that should boost my stats or survivablitly in PVP why wouldnt i equip it when i go off to pvp?? who cares about building the best 1337 looking gear only to use it as a trophy rack??
but again we fall back to the chore aspect of most mmos and that is harvest/grinding material to craft decent items and gear. even if you multi client a crafter bot to just spend all day crafting you will still have to waste time collecting. even if your doing 2 toons at a time. most people get rather bored with having to craft the same gear over and over because they got jumped and butchered in a 10 vs 1 battle. (yes 10 vs 1 happens alot in most mmos... debate all you want most hardcore pvpers rarely go out solo) so honestly where is the thrill and enjoyment recrafting and recrafting over and over again???
i have seen semi-full loot. and full loot games work well and fail horribly.. it ultimatly comes down to how the gear is built. if its npc buyable or not. either way, as much fun as full pvp/looting goes. it gets boring having to replace gear time and again. least of all your "special" gear. i personally think that is why many people both like and dislike full loot.
some people have lots of time to craft gear over and over, and others do not. both have enough time to pvp and collect the loot of the dead but it all falls down to time.
even the best pvp/looter will get ganked at some point and there gear is all gone lol
In your previous post it sounded like you were talking about whether there was a market for the game (as in: whether people will pay money for it.) That's the "game market" I was referring to, but like you said you were talking about item economy.
I disagree about Looting vs. Crafting. You're only thinking of existing game implementations.
Functionally, Looting and Crafting are identical: they're sources of items. The main difference is typically combat is more fun than gathering/crafting.
Here's a couple of the ways full loot games could be improved:
A. Make gathering/crafting fun. If it's as fun as the main gameplay activities (like PVP) then less people will complain when the game demands they spend time doing it. Of course "make it more fun" is easier said than done.
B. Have PVE Loot be a primary source of items. The item you create from 30 mins of gathering/crafting would be bought from a store (which sells all items in the game) for gold -- the same amount of gold you'd be expected to get in 30 mins of PVE farming. To make things interesting you would likely not just have gold, but unique tokens for specific types of gear.
The main point being that if you think crafting-based games work, you should also think PVE-based games work...because often PVE is at least as fun as crafting (often more fun.)
However my earlier point was that having items be time-consuming at all is what weakens these games. If a game is about PVP, it should be about PVP and that should be the main thing you're doing all the time.
As soon as you attach a, "you died, go PVE farm (or craft) for 30 minutes" penalty to the game, it's not about PVP anymore. It's about sitting around doing the boring farming activity so you can periodically enjoy the actual gameplay. If the farming is fun too, it's not a problem. But in every game I've played like this, the farming isn't particularly fun.
Just doesn't make sense to create a game that constantly sends players to the "no fun timeout zone." Again, I prefer Planetside's solution:
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The real problem with full loot is when it takes a long time to replace it.
If you can replace the stuff fast, you have the potential to keep more players in a game where you need to grind a lot to get the stuff.
In a gear based game where you raid to get the gear, or have to spend a lot of time to get it in another way the potential player base is a lot smaller.
I think you will find very few players that are willing to spend a month or more to get a good set of gear just to have it swiped because they lag or get ganked by a bunch of people.
In a FPS game you replace the stuff almost directly. To have full loot in a game like Wow or EQ2 however would leave very few potential players.
I could think this as some kind of formula, full loot in itself can have quite a few players, you see that in any FPS game but the more you have to grind to get the gear the fewer players the game will have.
So I don't believe it is the full loot in itself that turns of most players. If you made a MMO like Runequest that is so skill based that the gear is easy to get you could have a rather large playerbase.
DFO is kinda between the extremes, making it possible to run the game but not enough for it to have several 100K players.
Anyway: Full loot in itself isn't bad. Full loot + gear grind is.
I don't see the OP mentioning PvP anywhere. I just want to say that i would like the idea with mobs looting me when i have failed to kill them. Why do full loot have to be pvp only?