I liked Ultima Online's setup, I wasn't a pker either.
Full Loot, but the stuff you lost was pretty easy to replace (Buying a new set of gear and some regs wasn't exactly a big deal). Still sucked dying, but it did make things more exciting...and if you did lose your stuff, it wasn't some miserable setback that made you want to quit or anything.
Also after you invested some time and gained power, you could often fight back and kill someone at least in a 1 on 1 situation. It wasn't like some other games where "whoever gets the first attack wins". Then you get their stuff. =P
Now if it was a heavily gear based game like WoW with full loot, yeah it'd be lame and I wouldn't want to play it.
some people play mmorpgs to throw money out the window on an unentertaining single-player experience where they must always be in a win-win situation without loss or where there are no consequences for losing, and some are more competitive and appreciate playing against and with other players in a more compelling social environment where they wont grow tired of games, like most mmo's, where the world is one big safe-zone of tethered mobile objects that are static and add nothing to the game-play enjoyment or experience, as well as shunning the little school-girl concept of you'll always be a winner.
Considering the subscription numbers of full loot pvp games compared to the win-win safemode games I would say its not "some people" but most people.
Yeah, but not all games are marketed on the same level or have the public eye or budgets that some games do. It's an unfair comparison. I bet we would see a lot more subs in games like EVE or DFO if they had better marketing or bigger budgets such as games like WoW, Warhammer or Aion did.
Marketing will NOT sell subscriptions to a game people won't like. It might sell some boxes, but theres no profit in that. Eve could have commercials on 24/7 and it won't do a darn thing for them. Actually, Eve would implode with millions of players. The game couldn't handle itself and would lose everything that makes it what it is But millions of people will never have any interest in a game like Eve or DFO, so it doesn't matter.
Eve already has millions of people who know about the game anyway. Gamespy has covered it. Its been reviewed in magazines. Millions know about but don't care. DFO is too poor quality of MMO. Sinking loads of money into it won't change its core ruleset which people DO NOT LIKE. All the graphics, budget and marketing wouldn't do a things. SWG is a prime example of that. Massive budget. Biggest IP in gaming and popularity. Loads of advertising. It basically failed and had to be changed drastically just to stay afloat. WAR and AOC both had big bidgets ands decent marketing and LOADS of hype and it did nothing except sell a bunch of boxes the first month. Now both games have a playerbase less than DAOC back in 2002.
WOW sold millions BEFORE the marketing started by the way. It was all word of mouth and critical praise in the first year that got the ball rolling.
World of Warcraft always had a crap ton of advertising. Additionally, it was an established IP. You know, this is why companies buy huge brand names all the time right? This way you feed of the existing consumer base.
EVE Online had to start from scratch. Warcraft IP had years and years to grow. Warcraft 3 (RTS) alone had millions of players already. Ever heard of DoTA?
Full loot PvP sounds fun. A bunch of people fighting in their underpants with noob swords (literally, the swords they get when they start) because they're afraid to lose anything.
If you want to use the exception to the rule as your example, sure. However we saw in SB (equiped gear decay, drop all in bag) - and continue to see in UO (lose everything) and EVE (lose everything) - that what you describe isn't a realistic assessment of what normally occurs.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Originally posted by Marcus- You answered this yourself.. You stop those random strangers from not allowing you access to a given area the same way you stop trash mobs in a high level dungeon stopping you from access to the boss mob. Crazy talk, I know. If your goal in a gear based game is to get epic lewtz, and not find some friends to go help you kill that boss mob that drops it, you may as well go find another game that allows you to craft epic lewtz.. Screw him. let that boss stand in the bottom of that dungeon by himself. Wether that boss it at the bottom of an instance, or a pk standing in the wild, you may need to get some strategy up to kill him. Personally, i find more enjoyement killing the red when its all said and done... Some people like killing an NPC, more power to you. But in the end, its a game, and you're trying to overcome an obstacle. For some reason, people think that in a PvP based game, they will always be the victim. They can never kill a Red Player because, they are the most epic players to walk across the face of an MMO. Reds die just as easily as the rest of us. When you see one, and you drop down into a fetal position becasue he is destroying your gaming experience... Well, chances are, you already lost.
So if I kill off the PKer I am then guaranteed that he will not bother me again for another half hour and will not chase me once he respawns and I have moved on from my area?
If I could apply anti-mob methods to other players who attack me, I would love PvP games. The reality is that the PKers are more like the elite mob that keeps respawning almost right away after you kill it. It becomes an endurance race that prevents you from doing anything else.
In UO, you can drive off PKs. In games like WOW, there is nothing you can do to stop a relentless idiot from returning over and over again. Again... not every MMO is made like WOW.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
When you see the hardcore PVPrs begging for cheap and unimportant gear right after saying how they want hardcore full loot, you realize that yes, most people can't handle full loot.
The main reason why pvpers want that should be simple to understand. We want for PVP to be about our player skill. I don't want to lose a fight to someone just because they had on awesome, rare equipment
But here is the beauty and elegance of a full loot MMO (like EVE online, etc). Say some nerd has the ultimate weapon, like a Titan (in EVE). Titans take months to make and are insanely expensive or at least were in my time pre-Domination expansion
So it was rare to see a Titan.
This balances out PVP a bit and make it more bout player skill. Cause people were scared to bring overpowered crap to every little fight. This allowed lots of great fights were people were flying lots of cheap ships (tier 1 -> low tier 2 like HACs). Even newbies came along with us in gangs and got some kills. And due to uber ships being super expensive, they were rare to see (like a tier 3).
Ever see a vet use greens in WoW when they had Epics available to them? No you won';t. But in EVE, people will pvp in cheap t1/t2 ships all the time. I know myself I'd only bring out my super expensive ships for rare occasions.
So you contradict yourself and prove what I say. You hardcore PVPrs are scared shitless about losing your gear. You are actually little carebears with a big mouth.
I really love it when people lack a logical response to say. Especially when it makes a broad assumption about an entire group of people.
And looking at your post history one can see a lot of irony in this post.
the thing is the fool loot system is an old system thats antiquated at this point. Though some see it as an added excitement to the game it was originally used to extend the life of a game and not much else. You get gear then eventually lose it to someone and you start over.
When you see the hardcore PVPrs begging for cheap and unimportant gear right after saying how they want hardcore full loot, you realize that yes, most people can't handle full loot.
The main reason why pvpers want that should be simple to understand. We want for PVP to be about our player skill. I don't want to lose a fight to someone just because they had on awesome, rare equipment
But here is the beauty and elegance of a full loot MMO (like EVE online, etc). Say some nerd has the ultimate weapon, like a Titan (in EVE). Titans take months to make and are insanely expensive or at least were in my time pre-Domination expansion
So it was rare to see a Titan.
This balances out PVP a bit and make it more bout player skill. Cause people were scared to bring overpowered crap to every little fight. This allowed lots of great fights were people were flying lots of cheap ships (tier 1 -> low tier 2 like HACs). Even newbies came along with us in gangs and got some kills. And due to uber ships being super expensive, they were rare to see (like a tier 3).
Ever see a vet use greens in WoW when they had Epics available to them? No you won';t. But in EVE, people will pvp in cheap t1/t2 ships all the time. I know myself I'd only bring out my super expensive ships for rare occasions.
So you contradict yourself and prove what I say. You hardcore PVPrs are scared shitless about losing your gear. You are actually little carebears with a big mouth.
actually we risk the gear we can afford to lose. some can afford more than others and thats what makes interesting pvp fights.
say we are all in HACs (T2 cruisers) and battleships (with the tacklers and jammer T1 support) which are fair prices an 1 year old player can afford to lose. we attack a weaker fleet in size but we dont kill them fast enough and the distress call was received by alliance members. Suddenly we get a small fleet of motherships/carriers drop on us. we shit our pants and then die (unless you managed to run away)
or we have our dreadnoughts on standby as well ready to jump in
so the pvp is more strategic, planned out, and we did not risk more than what was needed.
having full loot means you think 2x before you act because mistakes can be expensive.
its like in the movie zombie strippers, when they where talking about the reanimating death, once the fear of dying is removed you no longer have that limit imposed on you, you then become the supper soldier. in non loot games people dont risk anything and they go in and do whatever they want how they want, you then end up with leeroy jenkins.
EVE once more is a good exception. But the fact remains, most people can't handle full loot, it's normal and it's human nature. You just risk what you can easily replace in one day or less. There is no hardcore. I agree it's more interesting, but the players screaming in the forums for cheap gear make me laugh.
You should at least play EVE Online so you are more credible. You don't ever see me discussing MMOs I've never played.
If you played EVE Online then you would know from reading his post he is risking items that took him a lot of time to obtain.
I know when I fly my HACs I am flying ships that took me a long time to save up the ISK for
Additionally, one should approach a game like EVE like real life. Think bout it. When you fight for an army who provides the materials? It's the military right?
In EVE Online Alliances charge everyone 'taxes'. When you lose your ship in a fleet battle most Alliances will reimburse your lost
It's not about 'full loot' per se. It's about having impact and waging realistic wars.
You obviously don't understand this and that is fine. But realize to most of us you come across as someone that posts a *LOT* but they are just full of brief, knee jerk responses.
1) its strictly 1v1 2) its twitch based, not gear based
but then i guess i'd be alone, since that kind of game wouldnt allow for griefing, and full loot pvpers only look for grief games where they fight if odds are heavily stacked for them.
Most full loot players are sandboxers so you are correct you are alone in your desire to play in an Arena. I can play an FPS for that. I will not pay a subscription fee for something I can get for free this is just simple common sense
the thing is the fool loot system is an old system thats antiquated at this point. Though some see it as an added excitement to the game it was originally used to extend the life of a game and not much else. You get gear then eventually lose it to someone and you start over.
As opposed to what? Grinding out a dungeon, your gear gets outdated, and you grind another?
When you see the hardcore PVPrs begging for cheap and unimportant gear right after saying how they want hardcore full loot, you realize that yes, most people can't handle full loot.
The main reason why pvpers want that should be simple to understand. We want for PVP to be about our player skill. I don't want to lose a fight to someone just because they had on awesome, rare equipment
LMAO - how did he GET the good gear then! He had to be skilled to get it in the first place, never mind keep it! If he ever lost a PvP fight, he'd lose his "awesome, rare equipment". What a cop-out... "I use skill, everyone else uses gear".
This is a common misconception. In MMORPGs one does not have to use 'skill' to acquire rare items. They can use something called 'Ebay' or buy said items with real money
EVE isn't full loot. You can never take an enemy's ship and cargo intact. The game also has clones and insurance. It can be full loss if you're stupid but it's never been full loot.
I may try Darkfall in 2010 but for now full loot is abit too serious for myself...I play MMOs for fun and relaxation not as a second job.
Who in their right mind wants to loose their loot when they die? Some say its more relistic but it takes more then a hardcore pvp system to make a pvp MMO fun for me.
When you see the hardcore PVPrs begging for cheap and unimportant gear right after saying how they want hardcore full loot, you realize that yes, most people can't handle full loot.
The main reason why pvpers want that should be simple to understand. We want for PVP to be about our player skill. I don't want to lose a fight to someone just because they had on awesome, rare equipment
LMAO - how did he GET the good gear then! He had to be skilled to get it in the first place, never mind keep it! If he ever lost a PvP fight, he'd lose his "awesome, rare equipment". What a cop-out... "I use skill, everyone else uses gear".
This is a common misconception. In MMORPGs one does not have to use 'skill' to acquire rare items. They can use something called 'Ebay' or buy said items with real money
Is it his 'skill' that makes him go after players that cannot match him in combat? It doesnt matter if these kinds of players are the minority, but they are the ones who give this system a bad name.
The MUD, Medievia had it right. CPK was lootable players, PK was just player killing. Apply these types to zones. CPK zones generally had better gear. You had to weigh risk/reward. Big guilds would basically patrol access to the major CPK zones at peak times and create a monopoly on the solid items. Item stats would be tweaked, so the same, sick dagger could have multiple incarnations of assorted awesomeness.
Before some cry "Grief" over guild control of important zones, keep in mind that every player could eventually sneak/stealth, and the game wasn't hugely populated like WoW with multiple factions.
There was no bind on equip/pickup or instances, which are really the key ingredients in the modern MMO. When you were CPK'ed, the killing players had a certain window of loot time before you corpsed, so to speak. The more killing players, the more of your stuff that got stripped.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to think that a similar style could be applied to a modern game and still appeal to hardcore and casual alike. Gear and PvP may be the left and right hands of an MMO, but the social, quest, group, faction, and crafting factors can be used as well to create a well-rounded game.
I think full loot is at it's best when it's optional. I don't always feel like paying attention to my game, but I do like getting hammered and coming home so I can drunkenly attempt to cap someone and fail miserably, waking the next morning to find my toon stripped completely.
The truth is that the OP is a dying breed who thinks that absolutes are the only way things can work.
Full Loot and Gear-oriented games do not mix. Period.
Full loot in UO worked because the gear was never really anything special. Material objects were not the main motivation for playing the game. The gameplay was the motivation for playing. It took very little cash and time to refit your toon if you lost everything.
Take WoW, for example, where people grind for gear, sometimes they have to save up a lot of gold to buy something, then spend even more money to enchant it. etc. all to get killed and have someone steal it. Most people would be pissed. Obtaining good gear in these types of games it a large part of the gameplay mechanism.
I worry about people who really feel a need to steal other peoples stuff. I think these people get off in upsetting other people. Which makes me wonder just how much their early years sucked that tehy have to resort to theft in avideo game to feel empowered. /shrug
Point #1:
I do not think this is true. In EVE Online it would literally take corps 6 months+ to make a Titan I believe. Hell, probably much longer in most cases. Titans were soooo expensive to make it took entire Alliances working together to construct them
And here's the kicker: Titan ships remain online even if the pilot logs out....
And yet- inspite of all this effort you saw people fly titans. I know, I've died to one or two
Point #2:
People think all FFA PVP is just running around and ganking. I cant blame you guys pvp was really pointless in WoW
But in EVE when I killed a 'soldier' from enemy army often times it was in defense of our space. I was protecting the miners and crafters and traders.
When I invaded enemy space sometimes it was just to mess around sure. But other times it was so we could help bring a conclusion to a war and negotiate their terms of surrender.
You can sit around and debate whether pvpers are 'antisocial' or 'jerks' but there really is no evil/good in EVE. It's all relative. To my enemies, I was a bad guy. But amongst my Alliance (aka Nation), I was a hero
When you see the hardcore PVPrs begging for cheap and unimportant gear right after saying how they want hardcore full loot, you realize that yes, most people can't handle full loot.
The main reason why pvpers want that should be simple to understand. We want for PVP to be about our player skill. I don't want to lose a fight to someone just because they had on awesome, rare equipment
LMAO - how did he GET the good gear then! He had to be skilled to get it in the first place, never mind keep it! If he ever lost a PvP fight, he'd lose his "awesome, rare equipment". What a cop-out... "I use skill, everyone else uses gear".
This is a common misconception. In MMORPGs one does not have to use 'skill' to acquire rare items. They can use something called 'Ebay' or buy said items with real money
Is it his 'skill' that makes him go after players that cannot match him in combat? It doesnt matter if these kinds of players are the minority, but they are the ones who give this system a bad name.
Thank you for making pointless assumptions about me. You people really need to play EVE Online. The PVP is nothing like World of Warcraft and such other MMOs. Alliance vs Alliance warfare is the real deal: fights for taking control of space and making life easier for friends, guildmates, etc
When you see the hardcore PVPrs begging for cheap and unimportant gear right after saying how they want hardcore full loot, you realize that yes, most people can't handle full loot.
The main reason why pvpers want that should be simple to understand. We want for PVP to be about our player skill. I don't want to lose a fight to someone just because they had on awesome, rare equipment
LMAO - how did he GET the good gear then! He had to be skilled to get it in the first place, never mind keep it! If he ever lost a PvP fight, he'd lose his "awesome, rare equipment". What a cop-out... "I use skill, everyone else uses gear".
This is a common misconception. In MMORPGs one does not have to use 'skill' to acquire rare items. They can use something called 'Ebay' or buy said items with real money
Is it his 'skill' that makes him go after players that cannot match him in combat? It doesnt matter if these kinds of players are the minority, but they are the ones who give this system a bad name.
Thank you for making pointless assumptions about me. You people really need to play EVE Online. The PVP is nothing like World of Warcraft and such other MMOs. Alliance vs Alliance warfare is the real deal: fights for taking control of space and making life easier for friends, guildmates, etc
I made no assumptions about you. I gave my opinion on why some people dislike such games.
Edit - I have to say that I didnt really express what i had to say with the right words, english is not my native language, and I also dont have the time or inclination to go into it with much detail. However, do believe me I made no assumptions about you. I dont know or care if you are a jerk who will only attack players 20 levels below him or not. I just saying that those that do that are the ones that stand out the most in those games.
I may try Darkfall in 2010 but for now full loot is abit too serious for myself...I play MMOs for fun and relaxation not as a second job. Who in their right mind wants to loose their loot when they die? Some say its more relistic but it takes more then a hardcore pvp system to make a pvp MMO fun for me.
When you participate in Alliance vs Alliance warfare in EVE Online you'll realize when you kill an enemy you are dealing a severe blow to the enemy. It's not about taking loot. Sure, maybe if you are a pirate in EVE maybe this is the case along with ransom demands. But I know nothing of a pirate's life
I fight in Alliance wars. Our pvp has purpose. Additionally, it is like a real military. When you lose a ship, often times your military will replace said lost. This is why we pay taxes in EVE to fund wars. Just realize when you die; unlike WoW, you are hurting your allies and guildmates. If you and the guild dies to much and loses too much then the war is lost when your banks are empty
When you see the hardcore PVPrs begging for cheap and unimportant gear right after saying how they want hardcore full loot, you realize that yes, most people can't handle full loot.
The main reason why pvpers want that should be simple to understand. We want for PVP to be about our player skill. I don't want to lose a fight to someone just because they had on awesome, rare equipment
LMAO - how did he GET the good gear then! He had to be skilled to get it in the first place, never mind keep it! If he ever lost a PvP fight, he'd lose his "awesome, rare equipment". What a cop-out... "I use skill, everyone else uses gear".
This is a common misconception. In MMORPGs one does not have to use 'skill' to acquire rare items. They can use something called 'Ebay' or buy said items with real money
Is it his 'skill' that makes him go after players that cannot match him in combat? It doesnt matter if these kinds of players are the minority, but they are the ones who give this system a bad name.
Thank you for making pointless assumptions about me. You people really need to play EVE Online. The PVP is nothing like World of Warcraft and such other MMOs. Alliance vs Alliance warfare is the real deal: fights for taking control of space and making life easier for friends, guildmates, etc
I made no assumptions about you. I gave my opinion on why some people dislike such games.
Edit - I have to say that I didnt really express what i had to say with the right words, english is not my native language, and I also dont have the time or inclination to go into it with much detail. However, do believe me I made no assumptions about you. I dont know or care if you are a jerk who will only attack players 20 levels below him or not. I just saying that those that do that are the ones that stand out the most in those games.
ok I know what you mean. Btw, if English is not your native language then honestly I am impressed because you type in English very well (seriously)
I don't see the OP mentioning PvP anywhere. I just want to say that i would like the idea with mobs looting me when i have failed to kill them. Why do full loot have to be pvp only?
Now that would be a nice twist wouldn't it? Suppose you (and if your teamed, your group) got wiped by a boss mob. The game now loots you! Your toon now has been a assigned an optional mission of reclaim. Perhaps you have a choice. Forfeit the mob rare item drop for a guarantee drop of your gear. That would defintely mix things up !
Ask UOers how much they enjoyed getting looted by mobs (lizard men, orc mages, trolls, liches, etc). Personally, I found it hilarious but way too many people would be frustrated by it.
Yeah, they complained out of frustration. But then they had those times that they killed a MOB that had looted other players, and found a surprise in the package. Then they were happy.
Giving wins and losses in a game is a more emotional ride, on both ends of the spectrum.
One of the worst things about PKing and looting is that the PKers are smart, and set themselves up for success. The victims can't overcome that without simply not playing the game. Scouts allow PKers to pick and choose their battles, and the targets don't get that option. So such a game becomes a mostly one sided affair.
And it's not that one PKer got you, it's that every PKer keeps getting you. When a player realizes that he's just feeding the PKs and falling behind them in skill and assets, and keeps spending loads of time "working" for stuff only to lose it to PKers time and time again, they are going to question if the game is worth it for them.
I fail to understand how the victims can't get smart..
If you keep getting pk'd in the same area, and yet, you keep going to said area, solo, expecting a different outcome...
Perhaps try and be a lil smarter than the PKs?
Perhaps get some "scouts" of your own?
Stop being a victim?
Hehe, yeah, just go to a different place where there's...different...PKs.
Or scout out those PK scouts who are blue and you don't know if they are scouting for their PK alts.
Or, and this is my favorite PKer rant that you didn't mention, just stay in a safe zone and play a fraction of the game you are paying for.
You can't beat PKers, they will always find a way to outmaneuver you because they have all the choices and options, and all the ability to outnumber you or wait for the right timing.
Damn, if I could have a game where PKers suffer perma-death for their "crimes". I'd give them a running start too.
I don't see the OP mentioning PvP anywhere. I just want to say that i would like the idea with mobs looting me when i have failed to kill them. Why do full loot have to be pvp only?
Now that would be a nice twist wouldn't it? Suppose you (and if your teamed, your group) got wiped by a boss mob. The game now loots you! Your toon now has been a assigned an optional mission of reclaim. Perhaps you have a choice. Forfeit the mob rare item drop for a guarantee drop of your gear. That would defintely mix things up !
Ask UOers how much they enjoyed getting looted by mobs (lizard men, orc mages, trolls, liches, etc). Personally, I found it hilarious but way too many people would be frustrated by it.
Yeah, they complained out of frustration. But then they had those times that they killed a MOB that had looted other players, and found a surprise in the package. Then they were happy.
Giving wins and losses in a game is a more emotional ride, on both ends of the spectrum.
One of the worst things about PKing and looting is that the PKers are smart, and set themselves up for success. The victims can't overcome that without simply not playing the game. Scouts allow PKers to pick and choose their battles, and the targets don't get that option. So such a game becomes a mostly one sided affair.
And it's not that one PKer got you, it's that every PKer keeps getting you. When a player realizes that he's just feeding the PKs and falling behind them in skill and assets, and keeps spending loads of time "working" for stuff only to lose it to PKers time and time again, they are going to question if the game is worth it for them.
I fail to understand how the victims can't get smart..
If you keep getting pk'd in the same area, and yet, you keep going to said area, solo, expecting a different outcome...
Perhaps try and be a lil smarter than the PKs?
Perhaps get some "scouts" of your own?
Stop being a victim?
Hehe, yeah, just go to a different place where there's...different...PKs.
Or scout out those PK scouts who are blue and you don't know if they are scouting for their PK alts.
Or, and this is my favorite PKer rant that you didn't mention, just stay in a safe zone and play a fraction of the game you are paying for.
You can't beat PKers, they will always find a way to outmaneuver you because they have all the choices and options, and all the ability to outnumber you or wait for the right timing.
Damn, if I could have a game where PKers suffer perma-death for their "crimes". I'd give them a running start too.
Yea, because the entire map is covered by PKs...
I've been mining in Darkfall for the last hour and half, and haven't seen a single person that attacked me..
PKers aren't the big bad wolf, lurking in every corner... pull the covers off your eyes, it'll be ok.
I don't see the OP mentioning PvP anywhere. I just want to say that i would like the idea with mobs looting me when i have failed to kill them. Why do full loot have to be pvp only?
Now that would be a nice twist wouldn't it? Suppose you (and if your teamed, your group) got wiped by a boss mob. The game now loots you! Your toon now has been a assigned an optional mission of reclaim. Perhaps you have a choice. Forfeit the mob rare item drop for a guarantee drop of your gear. That would defintely mix things up !
Ask UOers how much they enjoyed getting looted by mobs (lizard men, orc mages, trolls, liches, etc). Personally, I found it hilarious but way too many people would be frustrated by it.
Yeah, they complained out of frustration. But then they had those times that they killed a MOB that had looted other players, and found a surprise in the package. Then they were happy.
Giving wins and losses in a game is a more emotional ride, on both ends of the spectrum.
One of the worst things about PKing and looting is that the PKers are smart, and set themselves up for success. The victims can't overcome that without simply not playing the game. Scouts allow PKers to pick and choose their battles, and the targets don't get that option. So such a game becomes a mostly one sided affair.
And it's not that one PKer got you, it's that every PKer keeps getting you. When a player realizes that he's just feeding the PKs and falling behind them in skill and assets, and keeps spending loads of time "working" for stuff only to lose it to PKers time and time again, they are going to question if the game is worth it for them.
I fail to understand how the victims can't get smart..
If you keep getting pk'd in the same area, and yet, you keep going to said area, solo, expecting a different outcome...
Perhaps try and be a lil smarter than the PKs?
Perhaps get some "scouts" of your own?
Stop being a victim?
Hehe, yeah, just go to a different place where there's...different...PKs.
Or scout out those PK scouts who are blue and you don't know if they are scouting for their PK alts.
Or, and this is my favorite PKer rant that you didn't mention, just stay in a safe zone and play a fraction of the game you are paying for.
You can't beat PKers, they will always find a way to outmaneuver you because they have all the choices and options, and all the ability to outnumber you or wait for the right timing.
Damn, if I could have a game where PKers suffer perma-death for their "crimes". I'd give them a running start too.
Yea, because the entire map is covered by PKs...
I've been mining in Darkfall for the last hour and half, and haven't seen a single person that attacked me..
PKers aren't the big bad wolf, lurking in every corner... pull the covers off your eyes, it'll be ok.
Well, you don't get PKed in Shadowbane anymore, either. Maybe we should consider the similarities that allow for your PK free mining. Like, numbers.
Comments
I liked Ultima Online's setup, I wasn't a pker either.
Full Loot, but the stuff you lost was pretty easy to replace (Buying a new set of gear and some regs wasn't exactly a big deal). Still sucked dying, but it did make things more exciting...and if you did lose your stuff, it wasn't some miserable setback that made you want to quit or anything.
Also after you invested some time and gained power, you could often fight back and kill someone at least in a 1 on 1 situation. It wasn't like some other games where "whoever gets the first attack wins". Then you get their stuff. =P
Now if it was a heavily gear based game like WoW with full loot, yeah it'd be lame and I wouldn't want to play it.
Considering the subscription numbers of full loot pvp games compared to the win-win safemode games I would say its not "some people" but most people.
Yeah, but not all games are marketed on the same level or have the public eye or budgets that some games do. It's an unfair comparison. I bet we would see a lot more subs in games like EVE or DFO if they had better marketing or bigger budgets such as games like WoW, Warhammer or Aion did.
Marketing will NOT sell subscriptions to a game people won't like. It might sell some boxes, but theres no profit in that. Eve could have commercials on 24/7 and it won't do a darn thing for them. Actually, Eve would implode with millions of players. The game couldn't handle itself and would lose everything that makes it what it is But millions of people will never have any interest in a game like Eve or DFO, so it doesn't matter.
Eve already has millions of people who know about the game anyway. Gamespy has covered it. Its been reviewed in magazines. Millions know about but don't care. DFO is too poor quality of MMO. Sinking loads of money into it won't change its core ruleset which people DO NOT LIKE. All the graphics, budget and marketing wouldn't do a things. SWG is a prime example of that. Massive budget. Biggest IP in gaming and popularity. Loads of advertising. It basically failed and had to be changed drastically just to stay afloat. WAR and AOC both had big bidgets ands decent marketing and LOADS of hype and it did nothing except sell a bunch of boxes the first month. Now both games have a playerbase less than DAOC back in 2002.
WOW sold millions BEFORE the marketing started by the way. It was all word of mouth and critical praise in the first year that got the ball rolling.
World of Warcraft always had a crap ton of advertising. Additionally, it was an established IP. You know, this is why companies buy huge brand names all the time right? This way you feed of the existing consumer base.
EVE Online had to start from scratch. Warcraft IP had years and years to grow. Warcraft 3 (RTS) alone had millions of players already. Ever heard of DoTA?
If you want to use the exception to the rule as your example, sure. However we saw in SB (equiped gear decay, drop all in bag) - and continue to see in UO (lose everything) and EVE (lose everything) - that what you describe isn't a realistic assessment of what normally occurs.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
So if I kill off the PKer I am then guaranteed that he will not bother me again for another half hour and will not chase me once he respawns and I have moved on from my area?
If I could apply anti-mob methods to other players who attack me, I would love PvP games. The reality is that the PKers are more like the elite mob that keeps respawning almost right away after you kill it. It becomes an endurance race that prevents you from doing anything else.
In UO, you can drive off PKs. In games like WOW, there is nothing you can do to stop a relentless idiot from returning over and over again. Again... not every MMO is made like WOW.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
The main reason why pvpers want that should be simple to understand. We want for PVP to be about our player skill. I don't want to lose a fight to someone just because they had on awesome, rare equipment
But here is the beauty and elegance of a full loot MMO (like EVE online, etc). Say some nerd has the ultimate weapon, like a Titan (in EVE). Titans take months to make and are insanely expensive or at least were in my time pre-Domination expansion
So it was rare to see a Titan.
This balances out PVP a bit and make it more bout player skill. Cause people were scared to bring overpowered crap to every little fight. This allowed lots of great fights were people were flying lots of cheap ships (tier 1 -> low tier 2 like HACs). Even newbies came along with us in gangs and got some kills. And due to uber ships being super expensive, they were rare to see (like a tier 3).
Ever see a vet use greens in WoW when they had Epics available to them? No you won';t. But in EVE, people will pvp in cheap t1/t2 ships all the time. I know myself I'd only bring out my super expensive ships for rare occasions.
So you contradict yourself and prove what I say. You hardcore PVPrs are scared shitless about losing your gear. You are actually little carebears with a big mouth.
I really love it when people lack a logical response to say. Especially when it makes a broad assumption about an entire group of people.
And looking at your post history one can see a lot of irony in this post.
the thing is the fool loot system is an old system thats antiquated at this point. Though some see it as an added excitement to the game it was originally used to extend the life of a game and not much else. You get gear then eventually lose it to someone and you start over.
The main reason why pvpers want that should be simple to understand. We want for PVP to be about our player skill. I don't want to lose a fight to someone just because they had on awesome, rare equipment
But here is the beauty and elegance of a full loot MMO (like EVE online, etc). Say some nerd has the ultimate weapon, like a Titan (in EVE). Titans take months to make and are insanely expensive or at least were in my time pre-Domination expansion
So it was rare to see a Titan.
This balances out PVP a bit and make it more bout player skill. Cause people were scared to bring overpowered crap to every little fight. This allowed lots of great fights were people were flying lots of cheap ships (tier 1 -> low tier 2 like HACs). Even newbies came along with us in gangs and got some kills. And due to uber ships being super expensive, they were rare to see (like a tier 3).
Ever see a vet use greens in WoW when they had Epics available to them? No you won';t. But in EVE, people will pvp in cheap t1/t2 ships all the time. I know myself I'd only bring out my super expensive ships for rare occasions.
So you contradict yourself and prove what I say. You hardcore PVPrs are scared shitless about losing your gear. You are actually little carebears with a big mouth.
actually we risk the gear we can afford to lose. some can afford more than others and thats what makes interesting pvp fights.
say we are all in HACs (T2 cruisers) and battleships (with the tacklers and jammer T1 support) which are fair prices an 1 year old player can afford to lose. we attack a weaker fleet in size but we dont kill them fast enough and the distress call was received by alliance members. Suddenly we get a small fleet of motherships/carriers drop on us. we shit our pants and then die (unless you managed to run away)
or we have our dreadnoughts on standby as well ready to jump in
so the pvp is more strategic, planned out, and we did not risk more than what was needed.
having full loot means you think 2x before you act because mistakes can be expensive.
its like in the movie zombie strippers, when they where talking about the reanimating death, once the fear of dying is removed you no longer have that limit imposed on you, you then become the supper soldier. in non loot games people dont risk anything and they go in and do whatever they want how they want, you then end up with leeroy jenkins.
EVE once more is a good exception. But the fact remains, most people can't handle full loot, it's normal and it's human nature. You just risk what you can easily replace in one day or less. There is no hardcore. I agree it's more interesting, but the players screaming in the forums for cheap gear make me laugh.
You should at least play EVE Online so you are more credible. You don't ever see me discussing MMOs I've never played.
If you played EVE Online then you would know from reading his post he is risking items that took him a lot of time to obtain.
I know when I fly my HACs I am flying ships that took me a long time to save up the ISK for
Additionally, one should approach a game like EVE like real life. Think bout it. When you fight for an army who provides the materials? It's the military right?
In EVE Online Alliances charge everyone 'taxes'. When you lose your ship in a fleet battle most Alliances will reimburse your lost
It's not about 'full loot' per se. It's about having impact and waging realistic wars.
You obviously don't understand this and that is fine. But realize to most of us you come across as someone that posts a *LOT* but they are just full of brief, knee jerk responses.
Most full loot players are sandboxers so you are correct you are alone in your desire to play in an Arena. I can play an FPS for that. I will not pay a subscription fee for something I can get for free this is just simple common sense
Or they could care less about it?
As opposed to what? Grinding out a dungeon, your gear gets outdated, and you grind another?
The main reason why pvpers want that should be simple to understand. We want for PVP to be about our player skill. I don't want to lose a fight to someone just because they had on awesome, rare equipment
LMAO - how did he GET the good gear then! He had to be skilled to get it in the first place, never mind keep it! If he ever lost a PvP fight, he'd lose his "awesome, rare equipment".
What a cop-out... "I use skill, everyone else uses gear".
This is a common misconception. In MMORPGs one does not have to use 'skill' to acquire rare items. They can use something called 'Ebay' or buy said items with real money
This post is so wrong in so many ways.
I may try Darkfall in 2010 but for now full loot is abit too serious for myself...I play MMOs for fun and relaxation not as a second job.
Who in their right mind wants to loose their loot when they die? Some say its more relistic but it takes more then a hardcore pvp system to make a pvp MMO fun for me.
"I play Tera for the gameplay"
The main reason why pvpers want that should be simple to understand. We want for PVP to be about our player skill. I don't want to lose a fight to someone just because they had on awesome, rare equipment
LMAO - how did he GET the good gear then! He had to be skilled to get it in the first place, never mind keep it! If he ever lost a PvP fight, he'd lose his "awesome, rare equipment".
What a cop-out... "I use skill, everyone else uses gear".
This is a common misconception. In MMORPGs one does not have to use 'skill' to acquire rare items. They can use something called 'Ebay' or buy said items with real money
Is it his 'skill' that makes him go after players that cannot match him in combat? It doesnt matter if these kinds of players are the minority, but they are the ones who give this system a bad name.
The MUD, Medievia had it right. CPK was lootable players, PK was just player killing. Apply these types to zones. CPK zones generally had better gear. You had to weigh risk/reward. Big guilds would basically patrol access to the major CPK zones at peak times and create a monopoly on the solid items. Item stats would be tweaked, so the same, sick dagger could have multiple incarnations of assorted awesomeness.
Before some cry "Grief" over guild control of important zones, keep in mind that every player could eventually sneak/stealth, and the game wasn't hugely populated like WoW with multiple factions.
There was no bind on equip/pickup or instances, which are really the key ingredients in the modern MMO. When you were CPK'ed, the killing players had a certain window of loot time before you corpsed, so to speak. The more killing players, the more of your stuff that got stripped.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to think that a similar style could be applied to a modern game and still appeal to hardcore and casual alike. Gear and PvP may be the left and right hands of an MMO, but the social, quest, group, faction, and crafting factors can be used as well to create a well-rounded game.
I think full loot is at it's best when it's optional. I don't always feel like paying attention to my game, but I do like getting hammered and coming home so I can drunkenly attempt to cap someone and fail miserably, waking the next morning to find my toon stripped completely.
The truth is that the OP is a dying breed who thinks that absolutes are the only way things can work.
Point #1:
I do not think this is true. In EVE Online it would literally take corps 6 months+ to make a Titan I believe. Hell, probably much longer in most cases. Titans were soooo expensive to make it took entire Alliances working together to construct them
And here's the kicker: Titan ships remain online even if the pilot logs out....
And yet- inspite of all this effort you saw people fly titans. I know, I've died to one or two
Point #2:
People think all FFA PVP is just running around and ganking. I cant blame you guys pvp was really pointless in WoW
But in EVE when I killed a 'soldier' from enemy army often times it was in defense of our space. I was protecting the miners and crafters and traders.
When I invaded enemy space sometimes it was just to mess around sure. But other times it was so we could help bring a conclusion to a war and negotiate their terms of surrender.
You can sit around and debate whether pvpers are 'antisocial' or 'jerks' but there really is no evil/good in EVE. It's all relative. To my enemies, I was a bad guy. But amongst my Alliance (aka Nation), I was a hero
The main reason why pvpers want that should be simple to understand. We want for PVP to be about our player skill. I don't want to lose a fight to someone just because they had on awesome, rare equipment
LMAO - how did he GET the good gear then! He had to be skilled to get it in the first place, never mind keep it! If he ever lost a PvP fight, he'd lose his "awesome, rare equipment".
What a cop-out... "I use skill, everyone else uses gear".
This is a common misconception. In MMORPGs one does not have to use 'skill' to acquire rare items. They can use something called 'Ebay' or buy said items with real money
Is it his 'skill' that makes him go after players that cannot match him in combat? It doesnt matter if these kinds of players are the minority, but they are the ones who give this system a bad name.
Thank you for making pointless assumptions about me. You people really need to play EVE Online. The PVP is nothing like World of Warcraft and such other MMOs. Alliance vs Alliance warfare is the real deal: fights for taking control of space and making life easier for friends, guildmates, etc
The main reason why pvpers want that should be simple to understand. We want for PVP to be about our player skill. I don't want to lose a fight to someone just because they had on awesome, rare equipment
LMAO - how did he GET the good gear then! He had to be skilled to get it in the first place, never mind keep it! If he ever lost a PvP fight, he'd lose his "awesome, rare equipment".
What a cop-out... "I use skill, everyone else uses gear".
This is a common misconception. In MMORPGs one does not have to use 'skill' to acquire rare items. They can use something called 'Ebay' or buy said items with real money
Is it his 'skill' that makes him go after players that cannot match him in combat? It doesnt matter if these kinds of players are the minority, but they are the ones who give this system a bad name.
Thank you for making pointless assumptions about me. You people really need to play EVE Online. The PVP is nothing like World of Warcraft and such other MMOs. Alliance vs Alliance warfare is the real deal: fights for taking control of space and making life easier for friends, guildmates, etc
I made no assumptions about you. I gave my opinion on why some people dislike such games.
Edit - I have to say that I didnt really express what i had to say with the right words, english is not my native language, and I also dont have the time or inclination to go into it with much detail. However, do believe me I made no assumptions about you. I dont know or care if you are a jerk who will only attack players 20 levels below him or not. I just saying that those that do that are the ones that stand out the most in those games.
When you participate in Alliance vs Alliance warfare in EVE Online you'll realize when you kill an enemy you are dealing a severe blow to the enemy. It's not about taking loot. Sure, maybe if you are a pirate in EVE maybe this is the case along with ransom demands. But I know nothing of a pirate's life
I fight in Alliance wars. Our pvp has purpose. Additionally, it is like a real military. When you lose a ship, often times your military will replace said lost. This is why we pay taxes in EVE to fund wars. Just realize when you die; unlike WoW, you are hurting your allies and guildmates. If you and the guild dies to much and loses too much then the war is lost when your banks are empty
The main reason why pvpers want that should be simple to understand. We want for PVP to be about our player skill. I don't want to lose a fight to someone just because they had on awesome, rare equipment
LMAO - how did he GET the good gear then! He had to be skilled to get it in the first place, never mind keep it! If he ever lost a PvP fight, he'd lose his "awesome, rare equipment".
What a cop-out... "I use skill, everyone else uses gear".
This is a common misconception. In MMORPGs one does not have to use 'skill' to acquire rare items. They can use something called 'Ebay' or buy said items with real money
Is it his 'skill' that makes him go after players that cannot match him in combat? It doesnt matter if these kinds of players are the minority, but they are the ones who give this system a bad name.
Thank you for making pointless assumptions about me. You people really need to play EVE Online. The PVP is nothing like World of Warcraft and such other MMOs. Alliance vs Alliance warfare is the real deal: fights for taking control of space and making life easier for friends, guildmates, etc
I made no assumptions about you. I gave my opinion on why some people dislike such games.
Edit - I have to say that I didnt really express what i had to say with the right words, english is not my native language, and I also dont have the time or inclination to go into it with much detail. However, do believe me I made no assumptions about you. I dont know or care if you are a jerk who will only attack players 20 levels below him or not. I just saying that those that do that are the ones that stand out the most in those games.
ok I know what you mean. Btw, if English is not your native language then honestly I am impressed because you type in English very well (seriously)
Was fine in UO.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
Now that would be a nice twist wouldn't it? Suppose you (and if your teamed, your group) got wiped by a boss mob. The game now loots you! Your toon now has been a assigned an optional mission of reclaim. Perhaps you have a choice. Forfeit the mob rare item drop for a guarantee drop of your gear. That would defintely mix things up !
Ask UOers how much they enjoyed getting looted by mobs (lizard men, orc mages, trolls, liches, etc). Personally, I found it hilarious but way too many people would be frustrated by it.
Yeah, they complained out of frustration. But then they had those times that they killed a MOB that had looted other players, and found a surprise in the package. Then they were happy.
Giving wins and losses in a game is a more emotional ride, on both ends of the spectrum.
One of the worst things about PKing and looting is that the PKers are smart, and set themselves up for success. The victims can't overcome that without simply not playing the game. Scouts allow PKers to pick and choose their battles, and the targets don't get that option. So such a game becomes a mostly one sided affair.
And it's not that one PKer got you, it's that every PKer keeps getting you. When a player realizes that he's just feeding the PKs and falling behind them in skill and assets, and keeps spending loads of time "working" for stuff only to lose it to PKers time and time again, they are going to question if the game is worth it for them.
I fail to understand how the victims can't get smart..
If you keep getting pk'd in the same area, and yet, you keep going to said area, solo, expecting a different outcome...
Perhaps try and be a lil smarter than the PKs?
Perhaps get some "scouts" of your own?
Stop being a victim?
Hehe, yeah, just go to a different place where there's...different...PKs.
Or scout out those PK scouts who are blue and you don't know if they are scouting for their PK alts.
Or, and this is my favorite PKer rant that you didn't mention, just stay in a safe zone and play a fraction of the game you are paying for.
You can't beat PKers, they will always find a way to outmaneuver you because they have all the choices and options, and all the ability to outnumber you or wait for the right timing.
Damn, if I could have a game where PKers suffer perma-death for their "crimes". I'd give them a running start too.
Once upon a time....
Now that would be a nice twist wouldn't it? Suppose you (and if your teamed, your group) got wiped by a boss mob. The game now loots you! Your toon now has been a assigned an optional mission of reclaim. Perhaps you have a choice. Forfeit the mob rare item drop for a guarantee drop of your gear. That would defintely mix things up !
Ask UOers how much they enjoyed getting looted by mobs (lizard men, orc mages, trolls, liches, etc). Personally, I found it hilarious but way too many people would be frustrated by it.
Yeah, they complained out of frustration. But then they had those times that they killed a MOB that had looted other players, and found a surprise in the package. Then they were happy.
Giving wins and losses in a game is a more emotional ride, on both ends of the spectrum.
One of the worst things about PKing and looting is that the PKers are smart, and set themselves up for success. The victims can't overcome that without simply not playing the game. Scouts allow PKers to pick and choose their battles, and the targets don't get that option. So such a game becomes a mostly one sided affair.
And it's not that one PKer got you, it's that every PKer keeps getting you. When a player realizes that he's just feeding the PKs and falling behind them in skill and assets, and keeps spending loads of time "working" for stuff only to lose it to PKers time and time again, they are going to question if the game is worth it for them.
I fail to understand how the victims can't get smart..
If you keep getting pk'd in the same area, and yet, you keep going to said area, solo, expecting a different outcome...
Perhaps try and be a lil smarter than the PKs?
Perhaps get some "scouts" of your own?
Stop being a victim?
Hehe, yeah, just go to a different place where there's...different...PKs.
Or scout out those PK scouts who are blue and you don't know if they are scouting for their PK alts.
Or, and this is my favorite PKer rant that you didn't mention, just stay in a safe zone and play a fraction of the game you are paying for.
You can't beat PKers, they will always find a way to outmaneuver you because they have all the choices and options, and all the ability to outnumber you or wait for the right timing.
Damn, if I could have a game where PKers suffer perma-death for their "crimes". I'd give them a running start too.
Yea, because the entire map is covered by PKs...
I've been mining in Darkfall for the last hour and half, and haven't seen a single person that attacked me..
PKers aren't the big bad wolf, lurking in every corner... pull the covers off your eyes, it'll be ok.
Now that would be a nice twist wouldn't it? Suppose you (and if your teamed, your group) got wiped by a boss mob. The game now loots you! Your toon now has been a assigned an optional mission of reclaim. Perhaps you have a choice. Forfeit the mob rare item drop for a guarantee drop of your gear. That would defintely mix things up !
Ask UOers how much they enjoyed getting looted by mobs (lizard men, orc mages, trolls, liches, etc). Personally, I found it hilarious but way too many people would be frustrated by it.
Yeah, they complained out of frustration. But then they had those times that they killed a MOB that had looted other players, and found a surprise in the package. Then they were happy.
Giving wins and losses in a game is a more emotional ride, on both ends of the spectrum.
One of the worst things about PKing and looting is that the PKers are smart, and set themselves up for success. The victims can't overcome that without simply not playing the game. Scouts allow PKers to pick and choose their battles, and the targets don't get that option. So such a game becomes a mostly one sided affair.
And it's not that one PKer got you, it's that every PKer keeps getting you. When a player realizes that he's just feeding the PKs and falling behind them in skill and assets, and keeps spending loads of time "working" for stuff only to lose it to PKers time and time again, they are going to question if the game is worth it for them.
I fail to understand how the victims can't get smart..
If you keep getting pk'd in the same area, and yet, you keep going to said area, solo, expecting a different outcome...
Perhaps try and be a lil smarter than the PKs?
Perhaps get some "scouts" of your own?
Stop being a victim?
Hehe, yeah, just go to a different place where there's...different...PKs.
Or scout out those PK scouts who are blue and you don't know if they are scouting for their PK alts.
Or, and this is my favorite PKer rant that you didn't mention, just stay in a safe zone and play a fraction of the game you are paying for.
You can't beat PKers, they will always find a way to outmaneuver you because they have all the choices and options, and all the ability to outnumber you or wait for the right timing.
Damn, if I could have a game where PKers suffer perma-death for their "crimes". I'd give them a running start too.
Yea, because the entire map is covered by PKs...
I've been mining in Darkfall for the last hour and half, and haven't seen a single person that attacked me..
PKers aren't the big bad wolf, lurking in every corner... pull the covers off your eyes, it'll be ok.
Well, you don't get PKed in Shadowbane anymore, either. Maybe we should consider the similarities that allow for your PK free mining. Like, numbers.
Once upon a time....
/sigh
i've found Darfall to have a pretty good amount of players, at least so far..
what else ya got?