I miss full loot rights.. aka.. Dry Looting. There was nothing funnier than the days of listening/watching somebody cry and threaten harm to themselves as you cut up their armor or tossed the weapon they'd farmed in to the trash. Meh... it is a new age of gaming. The "hardcore" players are now time investors.. and the "pvp" players are now called unstable or anti-social. Things have changed quite a bit from the day when gaming was dangerous, exciting and fun.
The fact that you enjoy the first highlighted sentence sort of proves the case for the 2nd one.
Finding enjoyment in the pain of others is a bit twisted no matter how you look at it.
As for full loot, I don't care for it. Neither do most people who claim that they do, they make sure they are always on the winning end of the fight by either ganking lower level players or running in packs that can never lose.
I play EVE, but only because its pretty easy to avoid losing my stuff, even when I'm in low sec or 0.0.
I avoid DF because I believe that it would be far more difficult to prevent being looted, and I'm just not into that.
I agree.
And what's really funny, is that these same people who laugh at the pain they're causing another player, are the very same ones that whine, get pissed, and sometimes, ultimately, quit the game when a player better than them comes along and repeatedly starts killing them, over and over and over, and taking all the phat lewts that they have stolen from someone ELSE.
I don't care what anyone SAYS they "like," no reasonable human being enjoys having things they've invested time and effort to obtain....stolen from them. No one enjoys THAT part.
The gamers that profess to "enjoy" FFA loot PvP, only enjoy it when they have the upper hand and they're the ones doing the stealing. Because no one with any amount of common sense could possible say they enjoy someone else taking all their shit, unless they're actually mentally ill, or masochistic, or something.
Over all, I think for myself, I just don't enjoy playing games with people that have that sort of mentality of enjoying griefing and causing loss, irritation, and frustration to other people. Oh sure, it's "a game," but the fact that someone enjoys any kind of behavior, whether actual or virtual, that upsets and frustrates another person....speaks volumes to me about their real life character. Enough to let me know that they're not the kind of person that I'm interested in spending hours with playing a game.
I choose my online "playmates," in a very similar way to how I choose my friends OFFline. I want to hang around with fairly good and decent people. But that's just me.
I wish I knew what FFA PVP game posters like this one played. Because in EVE Online, they have high security areas so if you do not want to be griefed by other players its easdy to avoid
Next up you have the other extreme, nullsec (0.0). Here, you have player run security and Intel channels. You should have plenty fair warning in most cases when an enemy enters the space your Guild owns
What you speak of is anarchy which does not exist in EVE Online
Additionally, I want to highlight this sentence:
Kyleran wrote: "Finding enjoyment in the pain of others is a bit twisted no matter how you look at it."
I find it twisted that someone can feel pain just because they lost virtual loot. It really is just pixels on the screen. If they are that emotionally attached to an arcade game, they probably have personal issues that stem far beyond gaming.
However in EVE Online, when we've killed hostiles it was really just business. I don't recall anyone crying or threatening they wopuld quit. But I admit if they did, I would probably laugh. And of course I'd never believe them.
All the time I see people go into a tirade on EVE forums when disaster strikes but after a few hours/days I see them log right back in
It goes against my morality. I would NEVER take a person's rightfully owned belongings, RL or virtual, and I would not enjoy a nation in anarchy where everyone can rob me just so, equally.
Another person who would be traumatized by his first pawn loss in chess.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I don't like looting because there is nothing in it for me.
I mean I find taking peoples items to be just mean and I don't want to do it. But I am still in an environment where I could lose items, so for me it is all loss no gain.
Looting games make little sense if you are unwilling to loot people.
But then there are other issues, mainly to make looting not a massive devistating loss items are usually rather trivial, I mean you usually stockpile them in your bank, which I don't really like because I rather like unique and special items. In a looting game you would be a fool, or very well protected, to use your good items in battle, which kind of defeats the purpose of getting the item in the first place for me.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
I don't care what anyone SAYS they "like," no reasonable human being enjoys having things they've invested time and effort to obtain....stolen from them. No one enjoys THAT part.
Thank you Rainbow Brite! I have been wondering what kind of person I am because of the types of games I enjoy. I now know, I'm completely unreasonable. Thank god you and your judgement hammer were here to save the day.
Girlgeek seriously climb down from that 20 foot tall horse you've been riding for the last week or so, you're coming across as complete prick.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
What are these super expensive server costs you are guessing at? You should checkout gamedev.net and look at their FAQ for running multiplayer server architectures. For a small company like Adventurine, 10k-20k subs is a lot of nice capital. A lot of game studios would simply just die to have that sort of monthly income
You forgot they have raised 10M Euro (>12Million US) in loan. They also have investors with unspecified put up capital. Good luck paying that off with 10k sub.
So all because they have taken out a loan people assert they are doomed? It is fairly standard business practice to take out loans.
You have any business sense? How much obligations they have to honor if they owe banks $12million and owe unknown amonut to investors? They can just dance around free and not generate income to repay the debts?
It is fairly standard business practice to fold up an operation not paying back loans in time.
So you honestly think they are going to fold their business now because they have debt? How do you think bank loans like this work? Do you think they have to pay all 12 million off today?
If bank loans worked like this many people would be in serious trouble.
Think bout it for one minute- how much time do people have to pay back a house loan? How bout a student loan? YEARS........ Granted I do not know the terms of their bank loan but I'm willing to bank you do not either
I don't even play Darkfall (beyond buying a copy of their game to support them + a sub for a month) but I never see the logic people use to make their arguments. It's the same sort of ill-logic people used when they tried to argue it was vaporware. Now we've progressed to this level of nonsensical
I can count pretty much on one hand of MMOs I've known to shutdown. Hell Ultima Online is even still running. You're going to have a hard time convincing experienced MMO players an MMO is gonna shutdown any minute now without concrete proof and fact
Actually Darkfall is in a fairly decent position right now as long as they are able to make some payments on their loans. A bank is not going to force them into bankruptcy as long as forclosing on the company's assets is nto going to get them much money. For a game developer their biggest assets are the IP they have developed. For a MMORPG that IP only has value if the game is running. So as long as Aventurine's can actually generate enough revenue to pay their expenses and still make some payments to their creditors, they will stay in business.
@ OP: most people want to experience some sort of character progression. This can either be gear-based (WoW, and most PvE-oriented MMOs), or attribute-skill based. Unfortunately, it takes great talent to balance a skill advance scheme in an MMO to the point where it is a sufficiently satisfactory character progression reward
I don't like looting because there is nothing in it for me. I mean I find taking peoples items to be just mean and I don't want to do it. But I am still in an environment where I could lose items, so for me it is all loss no gain. Looting games make little sense if you are unwilling to loot people. But then there are other issues, mainly to make looting not a massive devistating loss items are usually rather trivial, I mean you usually stockpile them in your bank, which I don't really like because I rather like unique and special items. In a looting game you would be a fool, or very well protected, to use your good items in battle, which kind of defeats the purpose of getting the item in the first place for me.
That's the irony about item destruction / full loot (aka EVE ). It helps the economy when you lose your ship.
The way EVE works- if you lose a tier 1 ship those are fully insurable. This helps out noobs ease into PVP. You only lose insurance prices and modules and cargo
Anyway, when you get this new ISK you go buy a new ship
The ship you buy is from a crafter.
Games like EVE Online have the best economy I've ever seen in MMOs. Traders / Crafters enjoy great virtual careers. Unlike WoW (not to diss that play-style)- items are always consumed. Nothing lasts forever. Thus, war is actually seriously profitable for all players involved.
As a trader, I would always bring my wares to the most dangerous areas of space in my covert ops ships. Then I'd sell it for a huge markup and make a nice profit.
Even smarter is to just simply move to nullsec and produce items there and enjoy the profit from markups
I don't like looting because there is nothing in it for me. I mean I find taking peoples items to be just mean and I don't want to do it. But I am still in an environment where I could lose items, so for me it is all loss no gain. Looting games make little sense if you are unwilling to loot people. But then there are other issues, mainly to make looting not a massive devistating loss items are usually rather trivial, I mean you usually stockpile them in your bank, which I don't really like because I rather like unique and special items. In a looting game you would be a fool, or very well protected, to use your good items in battle, which kind of defeats the purpose of getting the item in the first place for me.
You're applying the mechanics and design of gear-dependent games to full loot games, which makes zero sense.
"I find taking peoples items to be just mean and I don't want to do it."
Items that drop in full loot games are designed to be used and lost. Taking someone's dropped loot in UO or EVE is just as mean as taking someone's piece in Axis and Allies, RISK or Chess - to deem it a mean thing to do is to not understand how to the game is played.
"...you usually stockpile them in your bank, which I don't really like because I rather like unique and special items."
You're assuming the limited space of gear-dependent MMOs. MMOs where loot gathering and hoarding is part of the game often have much larger storage space. In UO, even the smallest of houses has room for over 1,000 stacks of items. In EVE, storage space is near endless. You always have room for your uniques and rares.
"In a looting game you would be a fool, or very well protected, to use your good items in battle."
Haven't really seen that to be the case. For example, here's today's most recent killmail (with drop data) on Battle Clinic:
That ship has some expensive gear on it. If you are familiar with EVE, you can see that a good number of the ships killed had decent gear on them. Gear is made to be used and expected to be lost. It's a very different design from gear-dependent MMOs where the game is built to instill a need and attachment to one's gear. With the hoops one has to jump through in gear-dependent MMOs, it's understandable that they would be very upset if they ever lost a single piece of it.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Gear in Eve is cheap and easy...most ships that are killed or used in Pvp are too. Very different than a gear oriented game where getting gear takes a long time and has more value.
Eve is the exception to the rule. But EVE allows for several avenues of cash generation which are solely independent and nearly untouchable in regards to PvP. Industrialists and NPC market players to name two which allow a player to sit nearly continuously inside an NPC station in high-sec without ever venturing into any area which may result in any substantial loss.
And honestly, that is why EVE succeeds with (almost) full - loot pvp. It allows a means to generate cash and character advancement without risk in order to support higher risk activities.
Eve is the exception to the rule. But EVE allows for several avenues of cash generation which are solely independent and nearly untouchable in regards to PvP. Industrialists and NPC market players to name two which allow a player to sit nearly continuously inside an NPC station in high-sec without ever venturing into any area which may result in any substantial loss.
And honestly, that is why EVE succeeds with (almost) full - loot pvp. It allows a means to generate cash and character advancement without risk in order to support higher risk activities.
You said that EVE is the exception. Which MMOs with loot drop don't have that? Asheron's Call, Puzzle Pirates, Ultima Online... each MMO that has loot drop also has very quick and easy methods to safely replace what one loses.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
You're applying the mechanics and design of gear-dependent games to full loot games, which makes zero sense. "I find taking peoples items to be just mean and I don't want to do it." Items that drop in full loot games are designed to be used and lost. Taking someone's dropped loot in UO or EVE is just as mean as taking someone's piece in Axis and Allies, RISK or Chess - to deem it a mean thing to do is to not understand how to the game is played. Actually I am not applying gear dependent mechanics to a looting game. I know gear isn't as big a deal as in loot dependent games but it isn't the same as taking someones piece in chess. Losing a piece in chess is like losing health, it is the condition for loss, taking someone elses items is something you do after you already beat them, it inflicts longer term setbacks to people, where as losing a chess piece has no effect beyond the scope of the match. Having your ship blown up in Eve is a death penalty and not the same as looting. I could see how they were the same if after winning a game of chess you kept your opponent's chess set and made them buy a new one. So I see it as mean, because even though the game allows it, it is still an optional action you do to benefit at anothers expense, meaning the mechanics do not force you to steal peoples items. So by looting them you are directly responsible for setting the other player back by time, items and money. Since I don't like to lose time, money or items I don't inflict it upon others either.
"...you usually stockpile them in your bank, which I don't really like because I rather like unique and special items." You're assuming the limited space of gear-dependent MMOs. MMOs where loot gathering and hoarding is part of the game often have much larger storage space. In UO, even the smallest of houses has room for over 1,000 stacks of items. In EVE, storage space is near endless. You always have room for your uniques and rares. You left a part out, "mainly to make looting not a massive devistating loss items are usually rather trivial, I mean you usually stockpile them in your bank, which I don't really like because I rather like unique and special items" I take no issue with the storage space but that in loot based games items are rather unimportant, whereas I like to customize items and such, which is what I mean my unique gear, the two playing styles don't mix really well, unless you seperate loot and customization in some way.
"In a looting game you would be a fool, or very well protected, to use your good items in battle." Haven't really seen that to be the case. For example, here's today's most recent killmail (with drop data) on Battle Clinic: http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=9027249 That ship has some expensive gear on it. If you are familiar with EVE, you can see that a good number of the ships killed had decent gear on them. Gear is made to be used and expected to be lost. It's a very different design from gear-dependent MMOs where the game is built to instill a need and attachment to one's gear. With the hoops one has to jump through in gear-dependent MMOs, it's understandable that they would be very upset if they ever lost a single piece of it. I know that but it still isn't something most people can afford to do. It seems counter productive to try and get really nice things if I probably can't afford to replace them when I get looted.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
You're applying the mechanics and design of gear-dependent games to full loot games, which makes zero sense. "I find taking peoples items to be just mean and I don't want to do it." Items that drop in full loot games are designed to be used and lost. Taking someone's dropped loot in UO or EVE is just as mean as taking someone's piece in Axis and Allies, RISK or Chess - to deem it a mean thing to do is to not understand how to the game is played. Actually I am not applying gear dependent mechanics to a looting game. I know gear isn't as big a deal as in loot dependent games but it isn't the same as taking someones piece in chess. Losing a piece in chess is like losing health, it is the condition for loss, taking someone elses items is something you do after you already beat them, it inflicts longer term setbacks to people, where as losing a chess piece has no effect beyond the scope of the match. Having your ship blown up in Eve is a death penalty and not the same as looting. I could see how they were the same if after winning a game of chess you kept your opponent's chess set and made them buy a new one. So I see it as mean, because even though the game allows it, it is still an optional action you do to benefit at anothers expense, meaning the mechanics do not force you to steal peoples items. So by looting them you are directly responsible for setting the other player back by time, items and money. Since I don't like to lose time, money or items I don't inflict it upon others either. because you are seing the game as your personal playing, in eve its not you against the world, or you against your enemy, its your TEAM versus another TEAM. alliance vs aliance. corp vs corp, gang vs gang. the logistics ship is like the bishop, tacklers are like knights, assault frigs are like pawns. the big command ship is like the rook. you loose to many pieces (ships) you lose the game, (the war, the station, the sovereignty etc.) you need to stop thinking about yourself, but about your team. if your team does well, your team will pay for your ships and everything you would ever need. your team does shit, your on your own for iskies and the stuff you | take you consider it as the spoils of war. unless you are a pirate you need that loot to survive or your pirate corporation needs it to survive the wrecks are mostly things the winning team gather to replace part of their losses.
"...you usually stockpile them in your bank, which I don't really like because I rather like unique and special items." You're assuming the limited space of gear-dependent MMOs. MMOs where loot gathering and hoarding is part of the game often have much larger storage space. In UO, even the smallest of houses has room for over 1,000 stacks of items. In EVE, storage space is near endless. You always have room for your uniques and rares. You left a part out, "mainly to make looting not a massive devistating loss items are usually rather trivial, I mean you usually stockpile them in your bank, which I don't really like because I rather like unique and special items" I take no issue with the storage space but that in loot based games items are rather unimportant, whereas I like to customize items and such, which is what I mean my unique gear, the two playing styles don't mix really well, unless you seperate loot and customization in some way. exacly. you cant have super special (not so) unique loot in a full loot FFA PVP game. in a pvp game items you use are creafted and sold by other players. so if you lost a missile launcher, you go to your dealer and get 25, use 6 and stock up the rest until you need more. personnally i fly a caldari command ship (missile boat) and i have 30some heavy missile launchers and 20some heavy assault missiles, i also have 12-13 of each shield hardener (adds resistances to your shields) i also have a few dozen cruisers couple of battlecruisers and way to many rifters.
"In a looting game you would be a fool, or very well protected, to use your good items in battle." Haven't really seen that to be the case. For example, here's today's most recent killmail (with drop data) on Battle Clinic: http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=9027249 That ship has some expensive gear on it. If you are familiar with EVE, you can see that a good number of the ships killed had decent gear on them. Gear is made to be used and expected to be lost. It's a very different design from gear-dependent MMOs where the game is built to instill a need and attachment to one's gear. With the hoops one has to jump through in gear-dependent MMOs, it's understandable that they would be very upset if they ever lost a single piece of it. I know that but it still isn't something most people can afford to do. It seems counter productive to try and get really nice things if I probably can't afford to replace them when I get looted. depends on people, you can be able to fly really expensive ships in less than 6 months (im talking ships worth billions) but it doesnt mean you should. you usually fly ships you can afford to lose. in about 30 days (give or take 10 days) you can be in a battleship (90-120Million isk) someone who is 60 days old will have a hard time replacing that ship, so he will stick with cruisers and frigates as his pvp ships, but a 6 month old will be able to replace it with more ease, so he wont mind as much losing a battleship. and a 1 year old will go in the tech 2 cruisers and frigates, and then a 2-3 year will fly command ships into pvp without thinking twice about it. alliances and corporations usually own the big titans "usually" and let their players use it for official corporation operations such as invasion or home defense. so it depends on your or your corporation or your alliance;s wealth that determines what you are willing to risk. say your corporation has enough to replace expensive ships and tells you to go to war and gives you the expensive ships for that operation only, im sure you would not mind losing the ship then, right? i mean you would cuz you would be out of the fight but it does not hurt your wallet, and the corporation can replace it with ease. i know that some alliances are at war with eachother and they GIVE ships to their pilots to go fight the war, of course the corp (or yourself) would want to keep the spoils of war )
I miss full loot rights.. aka.. Dry Looting. There was nothing funnier than the days of listening/watching somebody cry and threaten harm to themselves as you cut up their armor or tossed the weapon they'd farmed in to the trash. Meh... it is a new age of gaming. The "hardcore" players are now time investors.. and the "pvp" players are now called unstable or anti-social. Things have changed quite a bit from the day when gaming was dangerous, exciting and fun.
The fact that you enjoy the first highlighted sentence sort of proves the case for the 2nd one.
Finding enjoyment in the pain of others is a bit twisted no matter how you look at it.
As for full loot, I don't care for it. Neither do most people who claim that they do, they make sure they are always on the winning end of the fight by either ganking lower level players or running in packs that can never lose.
I play EVE, but only because its pretty easy to avoid losing my stuff, even when I'm in low sec or 0.0.
I avoid DF because I believe that it would be far more difficult to prevent being looted, and I'm just not into that.
I agree.
And what's really funny, is that these same people who laugh at the pain they're causing another player, are the very same ones that whine, get pissed, and sometimes, ultimately, quit the game when a player better than them comes along and repeatedly starts killing them, over and over and over, and taking all the phat lewts that they have stolen from someone ELSE.
I don't care what anyone SAYS they "like," no reasonable human being enjoys having things they've invested time and effort to obtain....stolen from them. No one enjoys THAT part.
The gamers that profess to "enjoy" FFA loot PvP, only enjoy it when they have the upper hand and they're the ones doing the stealing. Because no one with any amount of common sense could possible say they enjoy someone else taking all their shit, unless they're actually mentally ill, or masochistic, or something.
Over all, I think for myself, I just don't enjoy playing games with people that have that sort of mentality of enjoying griefing and causing loss, irritation, and frustration to other people. Oh sure, it's "a game," but the fact that someone enjoys any kind of behavior, whether actual or virtual, that upsets and frustrates another person....speaks volumes to me about their real life character. Enough to let me know that they're not the kind of person that I'm interested in spending hours with playing a game.
I choose my online "playmates," in a very similar way to how I choose my friends OFFline. I want to hang around with fairly good and decent people. But that's just me.
I wish I knew what FFA PVP game posters like this one played. Because in EVE Online, they have high security areas so if you do not want to be griefed by other players its easdy to avoid
Next up you have the other extreme, nullsec (0.0). Here, you have player run security and Intel channels. You should have plenty fair warning in most cases when an enemy enters the space your Guild owns
What you speak of is anarchy which does not exist in EVE Online
Additionally, I want to highlight this sentence:
Kyleran wrote: "Finding enjoyment in the pain of others is a bit twisted no matter how you look at it."
I find it twisted that someone can feel pain just because they lost virtual loot. It really is just pixels on the screen. If they are that emotionally attached to an arcade game, they probably have personal issues that stem far beyond gaming.
However in EVE Online, when we've killed hostiles it was really just business. I don't recall anyone crying or threatening they wopuld quit. But I admit if they did, I would probably laugh. And of course I'd never believe them.
All the time I see people go into a tirade on EVE forums when disaster strikes but after a few hours/days I see them log right back in
Is this in the EVE forums? Am I hallucinating the "General Discussion" title at the top of the page?
NO ONE said anything about EVE except EVE players trying to defend their game.
I've played EVE, and I never said anything about EVE. First of all, in my opinion, EVE is NOT an FFA loot PvP game. It's a PvP game with LOOT RULES. That's an entirely different thing.
Darkfall is more the type game I'm talking about, and yes...it's essentially anarchy.
Make a full loot game with decent combat and maybe they won't be niche. The problem with full loot is gear becomes BORING and replacing it is also boring. Its just not fun to buy it, find it or make it. And for whatever reason battles are boring as well. UO's was horribly limited and simplistic Point and Click movement...Eve's is insanely slow and sleep inducing and also has point& click movement. Both of the best examples of full loot sad to say are the most boring games to play.
FPSs work for very well for full loot...no farming!!! I fight, I loot his gun or ammo, I die, I'm right back in the fight. Would COD be fun if after each death you had to go play the single player game for an hour? No, it would get pretty tedious.
Make a full loot game with decent combat and maybe they won't be niche. The problem with full loot is gear becomes BORING and replacing it is also boring. Its just not fun to buy it, find it or make it. And for whatever reason battles are boring as well. UO's was horribly limited and simplistic Point and Click movement...Eve's is insanely slow and sleep inducing and also has point& click movement. Both of the best examples of full loot sad to say are the most boring games to play. FPSs work for very well for full loot...no farming!!! I fight, I loot his gun or ammo, I die, I'm right back in the fight. Would COD be fun if after each death you had to go play the single player game for an hour? No, it would get pretty tedious.
It's one of the areas where team players benefit. Combat characters in a guild or corp in UO or EVE usually have their gear supplied to them or replaced for them when it's lost in PvP. The gatherer/crafter folks do what they like best, the warriors do what they like best, and everyone is happy. That system is non-existent for solo players, so for those your point about an hour of boring tasks to replace gear is a very valid one. The COD analogy however seems to ignore the fact that there is no crafting and economy in COD... it's a game for someone who just wants to fight stuff over and over, solo or group.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
What are these super expensive server costs you are guessing at? You should checkout gamedev.net and look at their FAQ for running multiplayer server architectures. For a small company like Adventurine, 10k-20k subs is a lot of nice capital. A lot of game studios would simply just die to have that sort of monthly income
You forgot they have raised 10M Euro (>12Million US) in loan. They also have investors with unspecified put up capital. Good luck paying that off with 10k sub.
So all because they have taken out a loan people assert they are doomed? It is fairly standard business practice to take out loans.
You have any business sense? How much obligations they have to honor if they owe banks $12million and owe unknown amonut to investors? They can just dance around free and not generate income to repay the debts?
It is fairly standard business practice to fold up an operation not paying back loans in time.
So you honestly think they are going to fold their business now because they have debt? How do you think bank loans like this work? Do you think they have to pay all 12 million off today? Yes if you do not generate enough income to repay loans and interest you DO fold up. Big companies like Lehmann Bros folded up. because they cannot afford to recycle their loans. GM & others need the gov't to lend them hundreds of billions, because they are unable to meet loan schedules. Yes you are wrong.
If bank loans worked like this many people would be in serious trouble. Many people were, in 2008, they have to hand over their property. Many people still are, now. How else would bank operate? Loan you a sum, let you spend it and then sit and hope you are willing to repay it at your own will?
Think bout it for one minute- how much time do people have to pay back a house loan? How bout a student loan? YEARS........ Granted I do not know the terms of their bank loan but I'm willing to bank you do not either If you do not pay for the loan, the bank will take over the house. You can have years on a housing loan b/c you have a property in their hands. Ok I do not know about the terms of bank loans, I just happen to be a consultant for banks. Ok no problem, bank on it. Student loans are different, they do not have years to pay back, and they generally are supported by the gov't or some other funds or bodies to help out students, and most important of all, it is not $12million.
I don't even play Darkfall (beyond buying a copy of their game to support them + a sub for a month) but I never see the logic people use to make their arguments. It's the same sort of ill-logic people used when they tried to argue it was vaporware. Now we've progressed to this level of nonsensical None of my business what game you play, that does not help make your nonsense any better.
I can count pretty much on one hand of MMOs I've known to shutdown. Hell Ultima Online is even still running. You're going to have a hard time convincing experienced MMO players an MMO is gonna shutdown any minute now without concrete proof and fact
UO is in a different position. It has earned it share, and it has already recouped all costs, paid off any loans, and have a certain left over profits. Right now, it is just recovering maintenace cost of a server or 2, which is much less.
I do not hate Darkfall, I do want to point out that Darkfall has its issues with finance, and need to be addresses. It could easily be a loan from mother company, financed by other sources of income.
But for those who innocently believe that b/c they love Darkfall, Aventurine automatically becomes immune to business considerations, are still living in their dreams.
What are these super expensive server costs you are guessing at? You should checkout gamedev.net and look at their FAQ for running multiplayer server architectures. For a small company like Adventurine, 10k-20k subs is a lot of nice capital. A lot of game studios would simply just die to have that sort of monthly income
You forgot they have raised 10M Euro (>12Million US) in loan. They also have investors with unspecified put up capital. Good luck paying that off with 10k sub.
So all because they have taken out a loan people assert they are doomed? It is fairly standard business practice to take out loans.
You have any business sense? How much obligations they have to honor if they owe banks $12million and owe unknown amonut to investors? They can just dance around free and not generate income to repay the debts?
It is fairly standard business practice to fold up an operation not paying back loans in time.
So you honestly think they are going to fold their business now because they have debt? How do you think bank loans like this work? Do you think they have to pay all 12 million off today?
If bank loans worked like this many people would be in serious trouble.
Think bout it for one minute- how much time do people have to pay back a house loan? How bout a student loan? YEARS........ Granted I do not know the terms of their bank loan but I'm willing to bank you do not either
I don't even play Darkfall (beyond buying a copy of their game to support them + a sub for a month) but I never see the logic people use to make their arguments. It's the same sort of ill-logic people used when they tried to argue it was vaporware. Now we've progressed to this level of nonsensical
I can count pretty much on one hand of MMOs I've known to shutdown. Hell Ultima Online is even still running. You're going to have a hard time convincing experienced MMO players an MMO is gonna shutdown any minute now without concrete proof and fact
Actually Darkfall is in a fairly decent position right now as long as they are able to make some payments on their loans. A bank is not going to force them into bankruptcy as long as forclosing on the company's assets is nto going to get them much money. For a game developer their biggest assets are the IP they have developed. For a MMORPG that IP only has value if the game is running. So as long as Aventurine's can actually generate enough revenue to pay their expenses and still make some payments to their creditors, they will stay in business.
Exactly, the ability to maintain payment to banks, without slips, for years to come.
I raised that issue b/c with only 10k sub, the risk is there. The risk of losing further clients when they screw up a patch, or a new games challenges their market share, is real. With a bank loan looming over them, they have little room to survive a bad mistake or a big challenge. They need more sub, and maybe new avenue to widening their cash inflow.
I do not hate Darkfall, I do want to point out that Darkfall has its issues with finance, and need to be addresses. It could easily be a loan from mother company, financed by other sources of income. But for those who innocently believe that b/c they love Darkfall, Aventurine automatically becomes immune to business considerations, are still living in their dreams.
Hopefully Aventurine's Military contract helps out in that department. Population is looking good atm, but that contract could keep things afloat during any lull periods.
I'm smelling an eventual Eve type growth pattern. And I welcome it.
P.S. welcome back lisubab. Hope you enjoyed your holiday and the whole "getting away from things"
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I miss full loot rights.. aka.. Dry Looting. There was nothing funnier than the days of listening/watching somebody cry and threaten harm to themselves as you cut up their armor or tossed the weapon they'd farmed in to the trash. Meh... it is a new age of gaming. The "hardcore" players are now time investors.. and the "pvp" players are now called unstable or anti-social. Things have changed quite a bit from the day when gaming was dangerous, exciting and fun.
The fact that you enjoy the first highlighted sentence sort of proves the case for the 2nd one.
Finding enjoyment in the pain of others is a bit twisted no matter how you look at it.
As for full loot, I don't care for it. Neither do most people who claim that they do, they make sure they are always on the winning end of the fight by either ganking lower level players or running in packs that can never lose.
I play EVE, but only because its pretty easy to avoid losing my stuff, even when I'm in low sec or 0.0.
I avoid DF because I believe that it would be far more difficult to prevent being looted, and I'm just not into that.
I agree.
And what's really funny, is that these same people who laugh at the pain they're causing another player, are the very same ones that whine, get pissed, and sometimes, ultimately, quit the game when a player better than them comes along and repeatedly starts killing them, over and over and over, and taking all the phat lewts that they have stolen from someone ELSE.
I don't care what anyone SAYS they "like," no reasonable human being enjoys having things they've invested time and effort to obtain....stolen from them. No one enjoys THAT part.
The gamers that profess to "enjoy" FFA loot PvP, only enjoy it when they have the upper hand and they're the ones doing the stealing. Because no one with any amount of common sense could possible say they enjoy someone else taking all their shit, unless they're actually mentally ill, or masochistic, or something.
Over all, I think for myself, I just don't enjoy playing games with people that have that sort of mentality of enjoying griefing and causing loss, irritation, and frustration to other people. Oh sure, it's "a game," but the fact that someone enjoys any kind of behavior, whether actual or virtual, that upsets and frustrates another person....speaks volumes to me about their real life character. Enough to let me know that they're not the kind of person that I'm interested in spending hours with playing a game.
I choose my online "playmates," in a very similar way to how I choose my friends OFFline. I want to hang around with fairly good and decent people. But that's just me.
I wish I knew what FFA PVP game posters like this one played. Because in EVE Online, they have high security areas so if you do not want to be griefed by other players its easdy to avoid
Next up you have the other extreme, nullsec (0.0). Here, you have player run security and Intel channels. You should have plenty fair warning in most cases when an enemy enters the space your Guild owns
What you speak of is anarchy which does not exist in EVE Online
Additionally, I want to highlight this sentence:
Kyleran wrote: "Finding enjoyment in the pain of others is a bit twisted no matter how you look at it."
I find it twisted that someone can feel pain just because they lost virtual loot. It really is just pixels on the screen. If they are that emotionally attached to an arcade game, they probably have personal issues that stem far beyond gaming.
However in EVE Online, when we've killed hostiles it was really just business. I don't recall anyone crying or threatening they wopuld quit. But I admit if they did, I would probably laugh. And of course I'd never believe them.
All the time I see people go into a tirade on EVE forums when disaster strikes but after a few hours/days I see them log right back in
Is this in the EVE forums? Am I hallucinating the "General Discussion" title at the top of the page?
NO ONE said anything about EVE except EVE players trying to defend their game.
I've played EVE, and I never said anything about EVE. First of all, in my opinion, EVE is NOT an FFA loot PvP game. It's a PvP game with LOOT RULES. That's an entirely different thing.
Darkfall is more the type game I'm talking about, and yes...it's essentially anarchy.
What??? EVE has always been an FFA PVP game. Last time I checked, I can murder my guildmates and take their loot.
FFA = Free for All PVP
That is fine you think differently but you're totally incorrect on so many levels on this one
And if you think Darkfall has no rules you couldn't be more wrong. It's okay if you do not like the game but at least play the game for 5 mins before you spread misinformation.
All it should take you is 5 mins to discover Darkfall has rules
I do not hate Darkfall, I do want to point out that Darkfall has its issues with finance, and need to be addresses. It could easily be a loan from mother company, financed by other sources of income. But for those who innocently believe that b/c they love Darkfall, Aventurine automatically becomes immune to business considerations, are still living in their dreams.
Hopefully Aventurine's Military contract helps out in that department. Population is looking good atm, but that contract could keep things afloat during any lull periods.
I'm smelling an eventual Eve type growth pattern. And I welcome it.
P.S. welcome back lisubab. Hope you enjoyed your holiday and the whole "getting away from things"
... Actually I am not applying gear dependent mechanics to a looting game. I know gear isn't as big a deal as in loot dependent games but it isn't the same as taking someones piece in chess. Losing a piece in chess is like losing health, it is the condition for loss, taking someone elses items is something you do after you already beat them, it inflicts longer term setbacks to people, where as losing a chess piece has no effect beyond the scope of the match. Having your ship blown up in Eve is a death penalty and not the same as looting. I could see how they were the same if after winning a game of chess you kept your opponent's chess set and made them buy a new one. So I see it as mean, because even though the game allows it, it is still an optional action you do to benefit at anothers expense, meaning the mechanics do not force you to steal peoples items. So by looting them you are directly responsible for setting the other player back by time, items and money. Since I don't like to lose time, money or items I don't inflict it upon others either. .... That ship has some expensive gear on it. If you are familiar with EVE, you can see that a good number of the ships killed had decent gear on them. Gear is made to be used and expected to be lost. It's a very different design from gear-dependent MMOs where the game is built to instill a need and attachment to one's gear. With the hoops one has to jump through in gear-dependent MMOs, it's understandable that they would be very upset if they ever lost a single piece of it. I know that but it still isn't something most people can afford to do. It seems counter productive to try and get really nice things if I probably can't afford to replace them when I get looted.
Shortened the post a bit.
You say you think it is 'mean' to destroy another player's possessions.
But you are not thinking of EVE as an RTS game are you or as a military simulation?
Think bout it- when there is risk/loss/reward what is the end result? You have what designers call a 'victory condition'
This is why Lynx tried to get you to understand his Chess example. Chess has a victory condition.
Risk / loot pvp games have victory conditions.
Think bout two guilds that fight each other. When you beat the other Guild so bad and make them expend resources you are creating a victory condition. They can no longer fight you. All the time in EVE i have seen Guilds surrender. This is a foreign concept to WoW players
Games like WoW lack 'victory conditions'. PVPers fight all night long pointlessly. They just respawn and respawn all night long like noobs. Even FPS games have victory conditions. WoW attempted to create artificial victory conditions in their BGs and such but its not the same
You cannot have a true victory condition unless you take away something from the enemy to disable them from fighting you again.
Also, this empowers players to enforce justice in their Guild owned lands. Looting or severe penalties is a REQUIREMENT. Not an option. Otherwise, griefers can just come and gank your crafters / traders all day long and never suffer any penalty. This could never work in a sandbox where Guilds own land.
" I know that but it still isn't something most people can afford to do. It seems counter productive to try and get really nice things if I probably can't afford to replace them when I get looted."
That's the GREAT part. You don't want so overpowered griefer running around with the best stuff in the game- torturing your crafters / miners / ratters (in EVE that is the name of players that grind mobs and pay tax to corps). When there is a penalty involved, it allows you to knock this griefer down a few notches.
Richard Bartle understood this. You should check out his work on virtual worlds. He wrote that players must be knocked down otherwise the 'tyrants' will gain a grip on the world and no one can ever topple them off the pyramid
Additionally, read the other posts where we described how your Alliance / corp has ship replacement programs. So most of the time you not hurting the player per se, you're hurting an organization that is hellbent on your destruction.
edit-
TLDR Version: Without some form of loss / severe penalty there is no way to create meaningful World PVP where players can have natural victory conditions.
.... You left a part out, "mainly to make looting not a massive devistating loss items are usually rather trivial, I mean you usually stockpile them in your bank, which I don't really like because I rather like unique and special items" I take no issue with the storage space but that in loot based games items are rather unimportant, whereas I like to customize items and such, which is what I mean my unique gear, the two playing styles don't mix really well, unless you seperate loot and customization in some way.
.....
Actually if you think bout it- having the uniqueness you crave defeats tactical transparency anyway. If you allow players to decorate their armor to such an extent other players cannot tell if they have on plate or light armor- then you have just disabled players ability plan how to deal with you. So for a PVP game, tactical transparency is so key.
In EVE Online, players actually gather intel on enemy fleet makeup and broadcast ship types in chat. If players cannot recognize your ship due to fancy decorations, then that confuses them a bit. In the case of EVE the devs could still display the ship name. But imagine if it was a medieval sort of game like the other MMOs. Now I have no way to tell what type of armor you have on possibly- and that leads to some confusion
Anyway in the case of EVE you'd be surprised how much pride folks take into their avatar portraits. I know I paid extra to redesign my portrait. When/if Ambulation (walking avatar expansion) ever comes out, you'll be able to spend more time and effort decorating your avatar.
So the styles can mix. But like I pointed out, you normally do not want players to make their armor and weapons look too unique. You want for players to be able to recognize these items on sight. Instead, you let them decorate their faces and houses.
I hate to say this but to drive this point home think about World of Warcraft. In my time, the Hand of Ragnaros was the ultimate weapon. It could insta-pwn ya. So if you ever saw a Warrior charging at ya with it- you just ran your butt off. So yeah- allowing players to make weapons of war look different can be bad. Very cool idea but will cause massive chaos.
I miss full loot rights.. aka.. Dry Looting. There was nothing funnier than the days of listening/watching somebody cry and threaten harm to themselves as you cut up their armor or tossed the weapon they'd farmed in to the trash. Meh... it is a new age of gaming. The "hardcore" players are now time investors.. and the "pvp" players are now called unstable or anti-social. Things have changed quite a bit from the day when gaming was dangerous, exciting and fun.
The fact that you enjoy the first highlighted sentence sort of proves the case for the 2nd one.
Finding enjoyment in the pain of others is a bit twisted no matter how you look at it.
As for full loot, I don't care for it. Neither do most people who claim that they do, they make sure they are always on the winning end of the fight by either ganking lower level players or running in packs that can never lose.
I play EVE, but only because its pretty easy to avoid losing my stuff, even when I'm in low sec or 0.0.
I avoid DF because I believe that it would be far more difficult to prevent being looted, and I'm just not into that.
I agree.
And what's really funny, is that these same people who laugh at the pain they're causing another player, are the very same ones that whine, get pissed, and sometimes, ultimately, quit the game when a player better than them comes along and repeatedly starts killing them, over and over and over, and taking all the phat lewts that they have stolen from someone ELSE.
I don't care what anyone SAYS they "like," no reasonable human being enjoys having things they've invested time and effort to obtain....stolen from them. No one enjoys THAT part.
The gamers that profess to "enjoy" FFA loot PvP, only enjoy it when they have the upper hand and they're the ones doing the stealing. Because no one with any amount of common sense could possible say they enjoy someone else taking all their shit, unless they're actually mentally ill, or masochistic, or something.
Over all, I think for myself, I just don't enjoy playing games with people that have that sort of mentality of enjoying griefing and causing loss, irritation, and frustration to other people. Oh sure, it's "a game," but the fact that someone enjoys any kind of behavior, whether actual or virtual, that upsets and frustrates another person....speaks volumes to me about their real life character. Enough to let me know that they're not the kind of person that I'm interested in spending hours with playing a game.
I choose my online "playmates," in a very similar way to how I choose my friends OFFline. I want to hang around with fairly good and decent people. But that's just me.
I wish I knew what FFA PVP game posters like this one played. Because in EVE Online, they have high security areas so if you do not want to be griefed by other players its easdy to avoid
Next up you have the other extreme, nullsec (0.0). Here, you have player run security and Intel channels. You should have plenty fair warning in most cases when an enemy enters the space your Guild owns
What you speak of is anarchy which does not exist in EVE Online
Additionally, I want to highlight this sentence:
Kyleran wrote: "Finding enjoyment in the pain of others is a bit twisted no matter how you look at it."
I find it twisted that someone can feel pain just because they lost virtual loot. It really is just pixels on the screen. If they are that emotionally attached to an arcade game, they probably have personal issues that stem far beyond gaming.
However in EVE Online, when we've killed hostiles it was really just business. I don't recall anyone crying or threatening they wopuld quit. But I admit if they did, I would probably laugh. And of course I'd never believe them.
All the time I see people go into a tirade on EVE forums when disaster strikes but after a few hours/days I see them log right back in
Is this in the EVE forums? Am I hallucinating the "General Discussion" title at the top of the page?
NO ONE said anything about EVE except EVE players trying to defend their game.
I've played EVE, and I never said anything about EVE. First of all, in my opinion, EVE is NOT an FFA loot PvP game. It's a PvP game with LOOT RULES. That's an entirely different thing.
Darkfall is more the type game I'm talking about, and yes...it's essentially anarchy.
What??? EVE has always been an FFA PVP game. Last time I checked, I can murder my guildmates and take their loot.
FFA = Free for All PVP
That is fine you think differently but you're totally incorrect on so many levels on this one
And if you think Darkfall has no rules you couldn't be more wrong. It's okay if you do not like the game but at least play the game for 5 mins before you spread misinformation.
All it should take you is 5 mins to discover Darkfall has rules
Rules? Bwhahahaha. No. UO had RULES. Darkfall has ...."omg, I've gone ROGUE"..../feign shock....now anyone can PK me that wants to (uhm...couldn't they already...essentially...so what's the REAL difference, the penalty?)...as IF anyone cared, in that game, that someone has "gone rogue." PFFFFFT. There is no REAL penalty for being a criminal of ANY kind in Darkfall.
And EVE is not FFA loot PvP....you CANNOT take absolutely EVERYTHING that is left when someone's ship is blown up. There ARE things that you don't pick up and take with you as a salvager. Have you trained in salvaging? Maybe I just didn't train far enough to be able to take every single thing left??? Last time I played....there were some things you could NOT take. THAT is what I was referring to when I said FFA LOOT. FFA PvP, yes....EVE is FFA PvP, just not full loot. And I did state that that was my opinion, by the way, and how I, personally, perceive full loot.
Originally posted by PatchDay I hate to say this but to drive this point home think about World of Warcraft. In my time, the Hand of Ragnaros was the ultimate weapon. It could insta-pwn ya. So if you ever saw a Warrior charging at ya with it- you just ran your butt off. So yeah- allowing players to make weapons of war look different can be bad. Very cool idea but will cause massive chaos.
Well, you are right to some degree, a peasant who meets a knight should run as fast as he can but at least from a historical perspective was stuff like weapons not something you just could identify like that.
The whole idea that you can tell how good someone is by just looking at his stuff is preposterous. Sure a plate is a plate and a sword is a sword. And some magic should be easy to see but in many cases you should actually be forced to take a chance.
If it works? It does, I played Lineage a long time ago and everyone looked more or less the same. You were forced to guess who you should attack at times, it was actually fun.
So my suggestion is that customization is good but you should be able to see the type of gear and most kinds of magic (some types that you can't see would be something people try to find to give away nasty surprises). You should not be able to look on something and just tell exactly what stats it have.
And I am surprised that people who wants full loot think otherwise, unless you are just out to see who you can grief or not.
Comments
The fact that you enjoy the first highlighted sentence sort of proves the case for the 2nd one.
Finding enjoyment in the pain of others is a bit twisted no matter how you look at it.
As for full loot, I don't care for it. Neither do most people who claim that they do, they make sure they are always on the winning end of the fight by either ganking lower level players or running in packs that can never lose.
I play EVE, but only because its pretty easy to avoid losing my stuff, even when I'm in low sec or 0.0.
I avoid DF because I believe that it would be far more difficult to prevent being looted, and I'm just not into that.
I agree.
And what's really funny, is that these same people who laugh at the pain they're causing another player, are the very same ones that whine, get pissed, and sometimes, ultimately, quit the game when a player better than them comes along and repeatedly starts killing them, over and over and over, and taking all the phat lewts that they have stolen from someone ELSE.
I don't care what anyone SAYS they "like," no reasonable human being enjoys having things they've invested time and effort to obtain....stolen from them. No one enjoys THAT part.
The gamers that profess to "enjoy" FFA loot PvP, only enjoy it when they have the upper hand and they're the ones doing the stealing. Because no one with any amount of common sense could possible say they enjoy someone else taking all their shit, unless they're actually mentally ill, or masochistic, or something.
Over all, I think for myself, I just don't enjoy playing games with people that have that sort of mentality of enjoying griefing and causing loss, irritation, and frustration to other people. Oh sure, it's "a game," but the fact that someone enjoys any kind of behavior, whether actual or virtual, that upsets and frustrates another person....speaks volumes to me about their real life character. Enough to let me know that they're not the kind of person that I'm interested in spending hours with playing a game.
I choose my online "playmates," in a very similar way to how I choose my friends OFFline. I want to hang around with fairly good and decent people. But that's just me.
I wish I knew what FFA PVP game posters like this one played. Because in EVE Online, they have high security areas so if you do not want to be griefed by other players its easdy to avoid
Next up you have the other extreme, nullsec (0.0). Here, you have player run security and Intel channels. You should have plenty fair warning in most cases when an enemy enters the space your Guild owns
What you speak of is anarchy which does not exist in EVE Online
Additionally, I want to highlight this sentence:
Kyleran wrote: "Finding enjoyment in the pain of others is a bit twisted no matter how you look at it."
I find it twisted that someone can feel pain just because they lost virtual loot. It really is just pixels on the screen. If they are that emotionally attached to an arcade game, they probably have personal issues that stem far beyond gaming.
However in EVE Online, when we've killed hostiles it was really just business. I don't recall anyone crying or threatening they wopuld quit. But I admit if they did, I would probably laugh. And of course I'd never believe them.
All the time I see people go into a tirade on EVE forums when disaster strikes but after a few hours/days I see them log right back in
Another person who would be traumatized by his first pawn loss in chess.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I don't like looting because there is nothing in it for me.
I mean I find taking peoples items to be just mean and I don't want to do it. But I am still in an environment where I could lose items, so for me it is all loss no gain.
Looting games make little sense if you are unwilling to loot people.
But then there are other issues, mainly to make looting not a massive devistating loss items are usually rather trivial, I mean you usually stockpile them in your bank, which I don't really like because I rather like unique and special items. In a looting game you would be a fool, or very well protected, to use your good items in battle, which kind of defeats the purpose of getting the item in the first place for me.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
Thank you Rainbow Brite! I have been wondering what kind of person I am because of the types of games I enjoy. I now know, I'm completely unreasonable. Thank god you and your judgement hammer were here to save the day.
Girlgeek seriously climb down from that 20 foot tall horse you've been riding for the last week or so, you're coming across as complete prick.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
You forgot they have raised 10M Euro (>12Million US) in loan. They also have investors with unspecified put up capital. Good luck paying that off with 10k sub.
So all because they have taken out a loan people assert they are doomed? It is fairly standard business practice to take out loans.
You have any business sense? How much obligations they have to honor if they owe banks $12million and owe unknown amonut to investors? They can just dance around free and not generate income to repay the debts?
It is fairly standard business practice to fold up an operation not paying back loans in time.
So you honestly think they are going to fold their business now because they have debt? How do you think bank loans like this work? Do you think they have to pay all 12 million off today?
If bank loans worked like this many people would be in serious trouble.
Think bout it for one minute- how much time do people have to pay back a house loan? How bout a student loan? YEARS........ Granted I do not know the terms of their bank loan but I'm willing to bank you do not either
I don't even play Darkfall (beyond buying a copy of their game to support them + a sub for a month) but I never see the logic people use to make their arguments. It's the same sort of ill-logic people used when they tried to argue it was vaporware. Now we've progressed to this level of nonsensical
I can count pretty much on one hand of MMOs I've known to shutdown. Hell Ultima Online is even still running. You're going to have a hard time convincing experienced MMO players an MMO is gonna shutdown any minute now without concrete proof and fact
Actually Darkfall is in a fairly decent position right now as long as they are able to make some payments on their loans. A bank is not going to force them into bankruptcy as long as forclosing on the company's assets is nto going to get them much money. For a game developer their biggest assets are the IP they have developed. For a MMORPG that IP only has value if the game is running. So as long as Aventurine's can actually generate enough revenue to pay their expenses and still make some payments to their creditors, they will stay in business.
@ OP: most people want to experience some sort of character progression. This can either be gear-based (WoW, and most PvE-oriented MMOs), or attribute-skill based. Unfortunately, it takes great talent to balance a skill advance scheme in an MMO to the point where it is a sufficiently satisfactory character progression reward
That's the irony about item destruction / full loot (aka EVE ). It helps the economy when you lose your ship.
The way EVE works- if you lose a tier 1 ship those are fully insurable. This helps out noobs ease into PVP. You only lose insurance prices and modules and cargo
Anyway, when you get this new ISK you go buy a new ship
The ship you buy is from a crafter.
Games like EVE Online have the best economy I've ever seen in MMOs. Traders / Crafters enjoy great virtual careers. Unlike WoW (not to diss that play-style)- items are always consumed. Nothing lasts forever. Thus, war is actually seriously profitable for all players involved.
As a trader, I would always bring my wares to the most dangerous areas of space in my covert ops ships. Then I'd sell it for a huge markup and make a nice profit.
Even smarter is to just simply move to nullsec and produce items there and enjoy the profit from markups
You're applying the mechanics and design of gear-dependent games to full loot games, which makes zero sense.
"I find taking peoples items to be just mean and I don't want to do it."
Items that drop in full loot games are designed to be used and lost. Taking someone's dropped loot in UO or EVE is just as mean as taking someone's piece in Axis and Allies, RISK or Chess - to deem it a mean thing to do is to not understand how to the game is played.
"...you usually stockpile them in your bank, which I don't really like because I rather like unique and special items."
You're assuming the limited space of gear-dependent MMOs. MMOs where loot gathering and hoarding is part of the game often have much larger storage space. In UO, even the smallest of houses has room for over 1,000 stacks of items. In EVE, storage space is near endless. You always have room for your uniques and rares.
"In a looting game you would be a fool, or very well protected, to use your good items in battle."
Haven't really seen that to be the case. For example, here's today's most recent killmail (with drop data) on Battle Clinic:
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=9027249
That ship has some expensive gear on it. If you are familiar with EVE, you can see that a good number of the ships killed had decent gear on them. Gear is made to be used and expected to be lost. It's a very different design from gear-dependent MMOs where the game is built to instill a need and attachment to one's gear. With the hoops one has to jump through in gear-dependent MMOs, it's understandable that they would be very upset if they ever lost a single piece of it.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Gear in Eve is cheap and easy...most ships that are killed or used in Pvp are too. Very different than a gear oriented game where getting gear takes a long time and has more value.
Eve is the exception to the rule. But EVE allows for several avenues of cash generation which are solely independent and nearly untouchable in regards to PvP. Industrialists and NPC market players to name two which allow a player to sit nearly continuously inside an NPC station in high-sec without ever venturing into any area which may result in any substantial loss.
And honestly, that is why EVE succeeds with (almost) full - loot pvp. It allows a means to generate cash and character advancement without risk in order to support higher risk activities.
You said that EVE is the exception. Which MMOs with loot drop don't have that? Asheron's Call, Puzzle Pirates, Ultima Online... each MMO that has loot drop also has very quick and easy methods to safely replace what one loses.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
The fact that you enjoy the first highlighted sentence sort of proves the case for the 2nd one.
Finding enjoyment in the pain of others is a bit twisted no matter how you look at it.
As for full loot, I don't care for it. Neither do most people who claim that they do, they make sure they are always on the winning end of the fight by either ganking lower level players or running in packs that can never lose.
I play EVE, but only because its pretty easy to avoid losing my stuff, even when I'm in low sec or 0.0.
I avoid DF because I believe that it would be far more difficult to prevent being looted, and I'm just not into that.
I agree.
And what's really funny, is that these same people who laugh at the pain they're causing another player, are the very same ones that whine, get pissed, and sometimes, ultimately, quit the game when a player better than them comes along and repeatedly starts killing them, over and over and over, and taking all the phat lewts that they have stolen from someone ELSE.
I don't care what anyone SAYS they "like," no reasonable human being enjoys having things they've invested time and effort to obtain....stolen from them. No one enjoys THAT part.
The gamers that profess to "enjoy" FFA loot PvP, only enjoy it when they have the upper hand and they're the ones doing the stealing. Because no one with any amount of common sense could possible say they enjoy someone else taking all their shit, unless they're actually mentally ill, or masochistic, or something.
Over all, I think for myself, I just don't enjoy playing games with people that have that sort of mentality of enjoying griefing and causing loss, irritation, and frustration to other people. Oh sure, it's "a game," but the fact that someone enjoys any kind of behavior, whether actual or virtual, that upsets and frustrates another person....speaks volumes to me about their real life character. Enough to let me know that they're not the kind of person that I'm interested in spending hours with playing a game.
I choose my online "playmates," in a very similar way to how I choose my friends OFFline. I want to hang around with fairly good and decent people. But that's just me.
I wish I knew what FFA PVP game posters like this one played. Because in EVE Online, they have high security areas so if you do not want to be griefed by other players its easdy to avoid
Next up you have the other extreme, nullsec (0.0). Here, you have player run security and Intel channels. You should have plenty fair warning in most cases when an enemy enters the space your Guild owns
What you speak of is anarchy which does not exist in EVE Online
Additionally, I want to highlight this sentence:
Kyleran wrote: "Finding enjoyment in the pain of others is a bit twisted no matter how you look at it."
I find it twisted that someone can feel pain just because they lost virtual loot. It really is just pixels on the screen. If they are that emotionally attached to an arcade game, they probably have personal issues that stem far beyond gaming.
However in EVE Online, when we've killed hostiles it was really just business. I don't recall anyone crying or threatening they wopuld quit. But I admit if they did, I would probably laugh. And of course I'd never believe them.
All the time I see people go into a tirade on EVE forums when disaster strikes but after a few hours/days I see them log right back in
Is this in the EVE forums? Am I hallucinating the "General Discussion" title at the top of the page?
NO ONE said anything about EVE except EVE players trying to defend their game.
I've played EVE, and I never said anything about EVE. First of all, in my opinion, EVE is NOT an FFA loot PvP game. It's a PvP game with LOOT RULES. That's an entirely different thing.
Darkfall is more the type game I'm talking about, and yes...it's essentially anarchy.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Make a full loot game with decent combat and maybe they won't be niche. The problem with full loot is gear becomes BORING and replacing it is also boring. Its just not fun to buy it, find it or make it. And for whatever reason battles are boring as well. UO's was horribly limited and simplistic Point and Click movement...Eve's is insanely slow and sleep inducing and also has point& click movement. Both of the best examples of full loot sad to say are the most boring games to play.
FPSs work for very well for full loot...no farming!!! I fight, I loot his gun or ammo, I die, I'm right back in the fight. Would COD be fun if after each death you had to go play the single player game for an hour? No, it would get pretty tedious.
It's one of the areas where team players benefit. Combat characters in a guild or corp in UO or EVE usually have their gear supplied to them or replaced for them when it's lost in PvP. The gatherer/crafter folks do what they like best, the warriors do what they like best, and everyone is happy. That system is non-existent for solo players, so for those your point about an hour of boring tasks to replace gear is a very valid one. The COD analogy however seems to ignore the fact that there is no crafting and economy in COD... it's a game for someone who just wants to fight stuff over and over, solo or group.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
You forgot they have raised 10M Euro (>12Million US) in loan. They also have investors with unspecified put up capital. Good luck paying that off with 10k sub.
So all because they have taken out a loan people assert they are doomed? It is fairly standard business practice to take out loans.
You have any business sense? How much obligations they have to honor if they owe banks $12million and owe unknown amonut to investors? They can just dance around free and not generate income to repay the debts?
It is fairly standard business practice to fold up an operation not paying back loans in time.
So you honestly think they are going to fold their business now because they have debt? How do you think bank loans like this work? Do you think they have to pay all 12 million off today? Yes if you do not generate enough income to repay loans and interest you DO fold up. Big companies like Lehmann Bros folded up. because they cannot afford to recycle their loans. GM & others need the gov't to lend them hundreds of billions, because they are unable to meet loan schedules. Yes you are wrong.
If bank loans worked like this many people would be in serious trouble. Many people were, in 2008, they have to hand over their property. Many people still are, now. How else would bank operate? Loan you a sum, let you spend it and then sit and hope you are willing to repay it at your own will?
Think bout it for one minute- how much time do people have to pay back a house loan? How bout a student loan? YEARS........ Granted I do not know the terms of their bank loan but I'm willing to bank you do not either If you do not pay for the loan, the bank will take over the house. You can have years on a housing loan b/c you have a property in their hands. Ok I do not know about the terms of bank loans, I just happen to be a consultant for banks. Ok no problem, bank on it. Student loans are different, they do not have years to pay back, and they generally are supported by the gov't or some other funds or bodies to help out students, and most important of all, it is not $12million.
I don't even play Darkfall (beyond buying a copy of their game to support them + a sub for a month) but I never see the logic people use to make their arguments. It's the same sort of ill-logic people used when they tried to argue it was vaporware. Now we've progressed to this level of nonsensical None of my business what game you play, that does not help make your nonsense any better.
I can count pretty much on one hand of MMOs I've known to shutdown. Hell Ultima Online is even still running. You're going to have a hard time convincing experienced MMO players an MMO is gonna shutdown any minute now without concrete proof and fact
UO is in a different position. It has earned it share, and it has already recouped all costs, paid off any loans, and have a certain left over profits. Right now, it is just recovering maintenace cost of a server or 2, which is much less.
I do not hate Darkfall, I do want to point out that Darkfall has its issues with finance, and need to be addresses. It could easily be a loan from mother company, financed by other sources of income.
But for those who innocently believe that b/c they love Darkfall, Aventurine automatically becomes immune to business considerations, are still living in their dreams.
You forgot they have raised 10M Euro (>12Million US) in loan. They also have investors with unspecified put up capital. Good luck paying that off with 10k sub.
So all because they have taken out a loan people assert they are doomed? It is fairly standard business practice to take out loans.
You have any business sense? How much obligations they have to honor if they owe banks $12million and owe unknown amonut to investors? They can just dance around free and not generate income to repay the debts?
It is fairly standard business practice to fold up an operation not paying back loans in time.
So you honestly think they are going to fold their business now because they have debt? How do you think bank loans like this work? Do you think they have to pay all 12 million off today?
If bank loans worked like this many people would be in serious trouble.
Think bout it for one minute- how much time do people have to pay back a house loan? How bout a student loan? YEARS........ Granted I do not know the terms of their bank loan but I'm willing to bank you do not either
I don't even play Darkfall (beyond buying a copy of their game to support them + a sub for a month) but I never see the logic people use to make their arguments. It's the same sort of ill-logic people used when they tried to argue it was vaporware. Now we've progressed to this level of nonsensical
I can count pretty much on one hand of MMOs I've known to shutdown. Hell Ultima Online is even still running. You're going to have a hard time convincing experienced MMO players an MMO is gonna shutdown any minute now without concrete proof and fact
Actually Darkfall is in a fairly decent position right now as long as they are able to make some payments on their loans. A bank is not going to force them into bankruptcy as long as forclosing on the company's assets is nto going to get them much money. For a game developer their biggest assets are the IP they have developed. For a MMORPG that IP only has value if the game is running. So as long as Aventurine's can actually generate enough revenue to pay their expenses and still make some payments to their creditors, they will stay in business.
Exactly, the ability to maintain payment to banks, without slips, for years to come.
I raised that issue b/c with only 10k sub, the risk is there. The risk of losing further clients when they screw up a patch, or a new games challenges their market share, is real. With a bank loan looming over them, they have little room to survive a bad mistake or a big challenge. They need more sub, and maybe new avenue to widening their cash inflow.
Hopefully Aventurine's Military contract helps out in that department. Population is looking good atm, but that contract could keep things afloat during any lull periods.
I'm smelling an eventual Eve type growth pattern. And I welcome it.
P.S. welcome back lisubab. Hope you enjoyed your holiday and the whole "getting away from things"
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
The fact that you enjoy the first highlighted sentence sort of proves the case for the 2nd one.
Finding enjoyment in the pain of others is a bit twisted no matter how you look at it.
As for full loot, I don't care for it. Neither do most people who claim that they do, they make sure they are always on the winning end of the fight by either ganking lower level players or running in packs that can never lose.
I play EVE, but only because its pretty easy to avoid losing my stuff, even when I'm in low sec or 0.0.
I avoid DF because I believe that it would be far more difficult to prevent being looted, and I'm just not into that.
I agree.
And what's really funny, is that these same people who laugh at the pain they're causing another player, are the very same ones that whine, get pissed, and sometimes, ultimately, quit the game when a player better than them comes along and repeatedly starts killing them, over and over and over, and taking all the phat lewts that they have stolen from someone ELSE.
I don't care what anyone SAYS they "like," no reasonable human being enjoys having things they've invested time and effort to obtain....stolen from them. No one enjoys THAT part.
The gamers that profess to "enjoy" FFA loot PvP, only enjoy it when they have the upper hand and they're the ones doing the stealing. Because no one with any amount of common sense could possible say they enjoy someone else taking all their shit, unless they're actually mentally ill, or masochistic, or something.
Over all, I think for myself, I just don't enjoy playing games with people that have that sort of mentality of enjoying griefing and causing loss, irritation, and frustration to other people. Oh sure, it's "a game," but the fact that someone enjoys any kind of behavior, whether actual or virtual, that upsets and frustrates another person....speaks volumes to me about their real life character. Enough to let me know that they're not the kind of person that I'm interested in spending hours with playing a game.
I choose my online "playmates," in a very similar way to how I choose my friends OFFline. I want to hang around with fairly good and decent people. But that's just me.
I wish I knew what FFA PVP game posters like this one played. Because in EVE Online, they have high security areas so if you do not want to be griefed by other players its easdy to avoid
Next up you have the other extreme, nullsec (0.0). Here, you have player run security and Intel channels. You should have plenty fair warning in most cases when an enemy enters the space your Guild owns
What you speak of is anarchy which does not exist in EVE Online
Additionally, I want to highlight this sentence:
Kyleran wrote: "Finding enjoyment in the pain of others is a bit twisted no matter how you look at it."
I find it twisted that someone can feel pain just because they lost virtual loot. It really is just pixels on the screen. If they are that emotionally attached to an arcade game, they probably have personal issues that stem far beyond gaming.
However in EVE Online, when we've killed hostiles it was really just business. I don't recall anyone crying or threatening they wopuld quit. But I admit if they did, I would probably laugh. And of course I'd never believe them.
All the time I see people go into a tirade on EVE forums when disaster strikes but after a few hours/days I see them log right back in
Is this in the EVE forums? Am I hallucinating the "General Discussion" title at the top of the page?
NO ONE said anything about EVE except EVE players trying to defend their game.
I've played EVE, and I never said anything about EVE. First of all, in my opinion, EVE is NOT an FFA loot PvP game. It's a PvP game with LOOT RULES. That's an entirely different thing.
Darkfall is more the type game I'm talking about, and yes...it's essentially anarchy.
What??? EVE has always been an FFA PVP game. Last time I checked, I can murder my guildmates and take their loot.
FFA = Free for All PVP
That is fine you think differently but you're totally incorrect on so many levels on this one
And if you think Darkfall has no rules you couldn't be more wrong. It's okay if you do not like the game but at least play the game for 5 mins before you spread misinformation.
All it should take you is 5 mins to discover Darkfall has rules
Hopefully Aventurine's Military contract helps out in that department. Population is looking good atm, but that contract could keep things afloat during any lull periods.
I'm smelling an eventual Eve type growth pattern. And I welcome it.
P.S. welcome back lisubab. Hope you enjoyed your holiday and the whole "getting away from things"
Well, what can I say, thank you.
Shortened the post a bit.
You say you think it is 'mean' to destroy another player's possessions.
But you are not thinking of EVE as an RTS game are you or as a military simulation?
Think bout it- when there is risk/loss/reward what is the end result? You have what designers call a 'victory condition'
This is why Lynx tried to get you to understand his Chess example. Chess has a victory condition.
Risk / loot pvp games have victory conditions.
Think bout two guilds that fight each other. When you beat the other Guild so bad and make them expend resources you are creating a victory condition. They can no longer fight you. All the time in EVE i have seen Guilds surrender. This is a foreign concept to WoW players
Games like WoW lack 'victory conditions'. PVPers fight all night long pointlessly. They just respawn and respawn all night long like noobs. Even FPS games have victory conditions. WoW attempted to create artificial victory conditions in their BGs and such but its not the same
You cannot have a true victory condition unless you take away something from the enemy to disable them from fighting you again.
Also, this empowers players to enforce justice in their Guild owned lands. Looting or severe penalties is a REQUIREMENT. Not an option. Otherwise, griefers can just come and gank your crafters / traders all day long and never suffer any penalty. This could never work in a sandbox where Guilds own land.
" I know that but it still isn't something most people can afford to do. It seems counter productive to try and get really nice things if I probably can't afford to replace them when I get looted."
That's the GREAT part. You don't want so overpowered griefer running around with the best stuff in the game- torturing your crafters / miners / ratters (in EVE that is the name of players that grind mobs and pay tax to corps). When there is a penalty involved, it allows you to knock this griefer down a few notches.
Richard Bartle understood this. You should check out his work on virtual worlds. He wrote that players must be knocked down otherwise the 'tyrants' will gain a grip on the world and no one can ever topple them off the pyramid
Additionally, read the other posts where we described how your Alliance / corp has ship replacement programs. So most of the time you not hurting the player per se, you're hurting an organization that is hellbent on your destruction.
edit-
TLDR Version: Without some form of loss / severe penalty there is no way to create meaningful World PVP where players can have natural victory conditions.
Actually if you think bout it- having the uniqueness you crave defeats tactical transparency anyway. If you allow players to decorate their armor to such an extent other players cannot tell if they have on plate or light armor- then you have just disabled players ability plan how to deal with you. So for a PVP game, tactical transparency is so key.
In EVE Online, players actually gather intel on enemy fleet makeup and broadcast ship types in chat. If players cannot recognize your ship due to fancy decorations, then that confuses them a bit. In the case of EVE the devs could still display the ship name. But imagine if it was a medieval sort of game like the other MMOs. Now I have no way to tell what type of armor you have on possibly- and that leads to some confusion
Anyway in the case of EVE you'd be surprised how much pride folks take into their avatar portraits. I know I paid extra to redesign my portrait. When/if Ambulation (walking avatar expansion) ever comes out, you'll be able to spend more time and effort decorating your avatar.
So the styles can mix. But like I pointed out, you normally do not want players to make their armor and weapons look too unique. You want for players to be able to recognize these items on sight. Instead, you let them decorate their faces and houses.
I hate to say this but to drive this point home think about World of Warcraft. In my time, the Hand of Ragnaros was the ultimate weapon. It could insta-pwn ya. So if you ever saw a Warrior charging at ya with it- you just ran your butt off. So yeah- allowing players to make weapons of war look different can be bad. Very cool idea but will cause massive chaos.
The fact that you enjoy the first highlighted sentence sort of proves the case for the 2nd one.
Finding enjoyment in the pain of others is a bit twisted no matter how you look at it.
As for full loot, I don't care for it. Neither do most people who claim that they do, they make sure they are always on the winning end of the fight by either ganking lower level players or running in packs that can never lose.
I play EVE, but only because its pretty easy to avoid losing my stuff, even when I'm in low sec or 0.0.
I avoid DF because I believe that it would be far more difficult to prevent being looted, and I'm just not into that.
I agree.
And what's really funny, is that these same people who laugh at the pain they're causing another player, are the very same ones that whine, get pissed, and sometimes, ultimately, quit the game when a player better than them comes along and repeatedly starts killing them, over and over and over, and taking all the phat lewts that they have stolen from someone ELSE.
I don't care what anyone SAYS they "like," no reasonable human being enjoys having things they've invested time and effort to obtain....stolen from them. No one enjoys THAT part.
The gamers that profess to "enjoy" FFA loot PvP, only enjoy it when they have the upper hand and they're the ones doing the stealing. Because no one with any amount of common sense could possible say they enjoy someone else taking all their shit, unless they're actually mentally ill, or masochistic, or something.
Over all, I think for myself, I just don't enjoy playing games with people that have that sort of mentality of enjoying griefing and causing loss, irritation, and frustration to other people. Oh sure, it's "a game," but the fact that someone enjoys any kind of behavior, whether actual or virtual, that upsets and frustrates another person....speaks volumes to me about their real life character. Enough to let me know that they're not the kind of person that I'm interested in spending hours with playing a game.
I choose my online "playmates," in a very similar way to how I choose my friends OFFline. I want to hang around with fairly good and decent people. But that's just me.
I wish I knew what FFA PVP game posters like this one played. Because in EVE Online, they have high security areas so if you do not want to be griefed by other players its easdy to avoid
Next up you have the other extreme, nullsec (0.0). Here, you have player run security and Intel channels. You should have plenty fair warning in most cases when an enemy enters the space your Guild owns
What you speak of is anarchy which does not exist in EVE Online
Additionally, I want to highlight this sentence:
Kyleran wrote: "Finding enjoyment in the pain of others is a bit twisted no matter how you look at it."
I find it twisted that someone can feel pain just because they lost virtual loot. It really is just pixels on the screen. If they are that emotionally attached to an arcade game, they probably have personal issues that stem far beyond gaming.
However in EVE Online, when we've killed hostiles it was really just business. I don't recall anyone crying or threatening they wopuld quit. But I admit if they did, I would probably laugh. And of course I'd never believe them.
All the time I see people go into a tirade on EVE forums when disaster strikes but after a few hours/days I see them log right back in
Is this in the EVE forums? Am I hallucinating the "General Discussion" title at the top of the page?
NO ONE said anything about EVE except EVE players trying to defend their game.
I've played EVE, and I never said anything about EVE. First of all, in my opinion, EVE is NOT an FFA loot PvP game. It's a PvP game with LOOT RULES. That's an entirely different thing.
Darkfall is more the type game I'm talking about, and yes...it's essentially anarchy.
What??? EVE has always been an FFA PVP game. Last time I checked, I can murder my guildmates and take their loot.
FFA = Free for All PVP
That is fine you think differently but you're totally incorrect on so many levels on this one
And if you think Darkfall has no rules you couldn't be more wrong. It's okay if you do not like the game but at least play the game for 5 mins before you spread misinformation.
All it should take you is 5 mins to discover Darkfall has rules
Rules? Bwhahahaha. No. UO had RULES. Darkfall has ...."omg, I've gone ROGUE"..../feign shock....now anyone can PK me that wants to (uhm...couldn't they already...essentially...so what's the REAL difference, the penalty?)...as IF anyone cared, in that game, that someone has "gone rogue." PFFFFFT. There is no REAL penalty for being a criminal of ANY kind in Darkfall.
And EVE is not FFA loot PvP....you CANNOT take absolutely EVERYTHING that is left when someone's ship is blown up. There ARE things that you don't pick up and take with you as a salvager. Have you trained in salvaging? Maybe I just didn't train far enough to be able to take every single thing left??? Last time I played....there were some things you could NOT take. THAT is what I was referring to when I said FFA LOOT. FFA PvP, yes....EVE is FFA PvP, just not full loot. And I did state that that was my opinion, by the way, and how I, personally, perceive full loot.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Well, you are right to some degree, a peasant who meets a knight should run as fast as he can but at least from a historical perspective was stuff like weapons not something you just could identify like that.
The whole idea that you can tell how good someone is by just looking at his stuff is preposterous. Sure a plate is a plate and a sword is a sword. And some magic should be easy to see but in many cases you should actually be forced to take a chance.
If it works? It does, I played Lineage a long time ago and everyone looked more or less the same. You were forced to guess who you should attack at times, it was actually fun.
So my suggestion is that customization is good but you should be able to see the type of gear and most kinds of magic (some types that you can't see would be something people try to find to give away nasty surprises). You should not be able to look on something and just tell exactly what stats it have.
And I am surprised that people who wants full loot think otherwise, unless you are just out to see who you can grief or not.