Im never worried about being looted in an mmo for 2 reasons:
A) its a game and im losing pixels
full loot games equipment is usually garbage and 99.9% of the players will bank all their cash and fancy stuff.
Other than that, full loot games have no meaning because unles you and your giggling 42 year old buddies have ganked some lone player and looted all the ore hes been gathering, losing your loot is just a minor setback. Most new players will be put off full loot games from the offset, simply because they get ganked over and over by gank squads until theyre left penniless and destitute.
I remember shadowbane where your inventory could be looted. You could spend hours farming mobs and end up with lots of money, items and potions only for some vampire scout to pop out of stealth and kill you when you were at 5% health and lose the lot. It was really annoying and there was no real skill factor to it, it was just a case of preying on somebody when there was no risk to yourself. Most people used to bank everything anyway, so the actual risk was minimal. the same in darkfall. My limited playtime there was the same, bank all your stuff and have backup money, weapons and armour to quickly repalce if you died.
The game that had the worst pvp death penalty by far was, surprisingly, Mythos. In that, gear was very important as it was totally randomised and could be very rare, and any stats you lost from dropping a piece meant the possibility that several other pieces of your equips were no longer wearable due to stat requirements. In pvp if someone killed you, you dropped 1 random piece of equipped armour, jewellry or weapon. It could be some cheapo green ring or a super rare orange chest piece but either way your character was weakened and then had to either buy a potentially expensive replacement or get farming again and hope for the best. PVP only characters could never get out of pvp-pvp was open everywhere, even in towns and quest hubs. If you were in hardcore mode and were killed in pvp, you lost your character as well as everything you were wearing and had banked.
These pvp rules were very unpopular decisions in the community as naked gankers (:P) were camping low level areas and killing people, which showed up what sort of players these type of games attract; those who want no risk or challenge but still want to loot other players for kicks. It doesnt matter if 90% of the rest of the games community is fine, these types of players always have the most impact.
If you want full loot games, then the loot itself has to have meaning or there really isnt any point to it. How many people would play a version of wow where gear was still highly important but everytime you died in WSG everyone could loot you? Every death would mean youd have to trot back to dungeon123 and farm the bosses again, or play arena until you had some new points to spend, or farm gold to buy some new crafted items from the auction house. It would be the worst possible waste of time ever, and im willing to bet most full loot fans wouldnt touch it.
So what I understand up to now is that peoples do not like the feeling that they can loose something? Inst that boring? To know that there is no wrong way so whatever you do is right? Where is the challenge? Where is the reward?
No I look at it more like players looking for welfare handouts because they can't be bothered with crafting, farming or killing named mobs to get the things they want to share/trade/sell. So they gamble on jumping and killing others who take the time to do these things.
When you talk only about full loot as the main topic of your post I only picture lazy players looking for a free meal ticket.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
I don't see the OP mentioning PvP anywhere. I just want to say that i would like the idea with mobs looting me when i have failed to kill them. Why do full loot have to be pvp only?
Now that would be a nice twist wouldn't it? Suppose you (and if your teamed, your group) got wiped by a boss mob. The game now loots you! Your toon now has been a assigned an optional mission of reclaim. Perhaps you have a choice. Forfeit the mob rare item drop for a guarantee drop of your gear. That would defintely mix things up !
in daoc you lost a good amount of exp when dieing.
in neocron you lost your whole quickbelt (at beta) and it was nerfed in release to one or two items
i say when death has no penalties, people don't worry bot dieing.
you lose a small amount of honor (or similiar) here and there nowadays, tho that's it.
ik kinda liked the idea of dropping the weapon u actually used while deeing or even lose exp or honor (in an equal amount to the exp or honor the killer gained).
but most people run 24/7 to instances, farm their precious loot, and if they would be at risk of losing it in pvp, i doubt more than 2% would actually go for pvp.
we need a new mmo, an mmo with balls!
for people with the hairiest, grossest balls of steel!
and if you don't like losing your precioussssss... stay in your cave and keep grinding mobs and bosses (eg play wow)
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
I don't see the OP mentioning PvP anywhere. I just want to say that i would like the idea with mobs looting me when i have failed to kill them. Why do full loot have to be pvp only?
Now that would be a nice twist wouldn't it? Suppose you (and if your teamed, your group) got wiped by a boss mob. The game now loots you! Your toon now has been a assigned an optional mission of reclaim. Perhaps you have a choice. Forfeit the mob rare item drop for a guarantee drop of your gear. That would defintely mix things up !
Ask UOers how much they enjoyed getting looted by mobs (lizard men, orc mages, trolls, liches, etc). Personally, I found it hilarious but way too many people would be frustrated by it.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
So what I understand up to now is that peoples do not like the feeling that they can loose something? Inst that boring? To know that there is no wrong way so whatever you do is right? Where is the challenge? Where is the reward?
No I look at it more like players looking for welfare handouts because they can be bothered with crafting, farming or killing named mobs to get the things they want to share/trade/sell. So they gamble on jumping and killing others who take the time to do these things.
When you talk only about full loot as the main topic of your post I only picture lazy players looking for a free meal ticket.
You're tone indicates that you're working on the false assumption that the looter places anywhere near the level of importance on your loot as you do, Ramon. Either you haven't played a full loot game and haven't experienced how easily a person can not only re-equip but *gasp* prepare a head of time for loss, or you are way to attached to disposable content.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I don't see the OP mentioning PvP anywhere. I just want to say that i would like the idea with mobs looting me when i have failed to kill them. Why do full loot have to be pvp only?
Now that would be a nice twist wouldn't it? Suppose you (and if your teamed, your group) got wiped by a boss mob. The game now loots you! Your toon now has been a assigned an optional mission of reclaim. Perhaps you have a choice. Forfeit the mob rare item drop for a guarantee drop of your gear. That would defintely mix things up !
Ask UOers how much they enjoyed getting looted by mobs (lizard men, orc mages, trolls, liches, etc). Personally, I found it hilarious but way too many people would be frustrated by it.
I loved trying to pick out which of those dern lizardmen just stole my reagents
Most true, thane. However, WoW somehow got millions of subscribers and the other games subscriptions declined.
So, developers and investors connected the dots. Make the game easy and fun, make money. Make it difficult : don't expect a big return on your investment. Much as I am a critic of Brad McQuaid (original EQ and Vangaurd developer), he made a statement that rings true: (paraphrased because he has fallen/ been bought off lol)
If you make a game where wolves eat sheep, pretty soon the wolves run out of sheep.
No game investor wants to lose money. Hardcore game mechanics and/or design will have much more to overcome than a WoW clone. For enthusiasts like all of us on this forum, we tend to push the more challenging aspects of MMO gameplay. Most of the gaming world doesn't want that experience. They are used to a console/ solo game experience.
I don't see the OP mentioning PvP anywhere. I just want to say that i would like the idea with mobs looting me when i have failed to kill them. Why do full loot have to be pvp only?
Now that would be a nice twist wouldn't it? Suppose you (and if your teamed, your group) got wiped by a boss mob. The game now loots you! Your toon now has been a assigned an optional mission of reclaim. Perhaps you have a choice. Forfeit the mob rare item drop for a guarantee drop of your gear. That would defintely mix things up !
Ask UOers how much they enjoyed getting looted by mobs (lizard men, orc mages, trolls, liches, etc). Personally, I found it hilarious but way too many people would be frustrated by it.
Yeah, they complained out of frustration. But then they had those times that they killed a MOB that had looted other players, and found a surprise in the package. Then they were happy.
Giving wins and losses in a game is a more emotional ride, on both ends of the spectrum.
One of the worst things about PKing and looting is that the PKers are smart, and set themselves up for success. The victims can't overcome that without simply not playing the game. Scouts allow PKers to pick and choose their battles, and the targets don't get that option. So such a game becomes a mostly one sided affair.
And it's not that one PKer got you, it's that every PKer keeps getting you. When a player realizes that he's just feeding the PKs and falling behind them in skill and assets, and keeps spending loads of time "working" for stuff only to lose it to PKers time and time again, they are going to question if the game is worth it for them.
I don't see the OP mentioning PvP anywhere. I just want to say that i would like the idea with mobs looting me when i have failed to kill them. Why do full loot have to be pvp only?
Now that would be a nice twist wouldn't it? Suppose you (and if your teamed, your group) got wiped by a boss mob. The game now loots you! Your toon now has been a assigned an optional mission of reclaim. Perhaps you have a choice. Forfeit the mob rare item drop for a guarantee drop of your gear. That would defintely mix things up !
Ask UOers how much they enjoyed getting looted by mobs (lizard men, orc mages, trolls, liches, etc). Personally, I found it hilarious but way too many people would be frustrated by it.
Yeah, they complained out of frustration. But then they had those times that they killed a MOB that had looted other players, and found a surprise in the package. Then they were happy.
Giving wins and losses in a game is a more emotional ride, on both ends of the spectrum.
One of the worst things about PKing and looting is that the PKers are smart, and set themselves up for success. The victims can't overcome that without simply not playing the game. Scouts allow PKers to pick and choose their battles, and the targets don't get that option. So such a game becomes a mostly one sided affair.
And it's not that one PKer got you, it's that every PKer keeps getting you. When a player realizes that he's just feeding the PKs and falling behind them in skill and assets, and keeps spending loads of time "working" for stuff only to lose it to PKers time and time again, they are going to question if the game is worth it for them.
I fail to understand how the victims can't get smart..
If you keep getting pk'd in the same area, and yet, you keep going to said area, solo, expecting a different outcome...
Full loot PvP sounds fun. A bunch of people fighting in their underpants with noob swords (literally, the swords they get when they start) because they're afraid to lose anything.
Most true, thane. However, WoW somehow got millions of subscribers and the other games subscriptions declined. So, developers and investors connected the dots. Make the game easy and fun, make money. Make it difficult : don't expect a big return on your investment. Much as I am a critic of Brad McQuaid (original EQ and Vangaurd developer), he made a statement that rings true: (paraphrased because he has fallen/ been bought off lol) If you make a game where wolves eat sheep, pretty soon the wolves run out of sheep. No game investor wants to lose money. Hardcore game mechanics and/or design will have much more to overcome than a WoW clone. For enthusiasts like all of us on this forum, we tend to push the more challenging aspects of MMO gameplay. Most of the gaming world doesn't want that experience. They are used to a console/ solo game experience.
Agreed. However, I think the failure of so many WoW clones recently may swing the genre in a new direction where many different tastes are catered to. Just like other forms of entertainment do.
I can't think of another form of entertainment that only has a single egg and doesn't even need a basket to put it in! It would be akin to walking in to the local bookstore and finding nothing but mystery novels. This lack of depth could end up being the demise of the MMO as a whole for when WoW finally ends its run, what if there are no new ideas to take the spotlight?
1) Full loot PvP games usually attract a highly competitive crowd, including but not limited to socially inept human wastelands. Frankly, I don't care to spend time with such people, neither virtually nor otherwise - and in these games they have a much higher impact on my already fairly time-restricted 'play time' than in other games.
2) People may have a competitive job and use games to unwind, instead of getting their kicks virtually after having spend the day behind a counter selling burgers
3) I don't need a risk-vs-reward system with full loot. I played DAoC in set groups for a good while and while you couldn't lose your stuff, it was still an amazing adrenaline rush - simply a very well designed system.
Sure sure, all matters of opinion (at least I don't call them 'THE TRUTH !!111'
This is why Full loot/FFA PVP will remain a niche market. On the plus side, you can pat yourself on the back and tell yourself that YOUR way of pretending to be a magical elf in fairyland is ever so much more rough and tough and macho than someone ELSE'S way of pretending to a magical elf in fairyland. You're a very, very, very, SPECIAL person for being rough and tough and macho enough to not cry when your pretend armor and your pretend weapons are stolen by the other boys. You're very big and brave, and we all think you're just what we wish we could grow up to be.
(Unless you play EVE. *Then* you're pretending to be a magical machine-man who lives inside a great, big, long, hard, metal tube. A great, big, long, hard, metal tube full of precious cargo which it releases when it docks.)
It mitigates it just as having safe zones mitigates the effects of free for all PvP. That's true both for the winner and loser by the way. It's risk management. If another player could take your ship it would change the PvP dynamics drastically. The real divide is pixels. Some people see pixels as incidental to play others see them as representing time spent and accomplishment. These two viewpoints don't mix well. The PK/ carebear armchair psychology misses the point. One viewpoint isn't twisted and evil while the other is timid and weak. It's a preference nothing more.
Risk management exists in any game though doesn't it? The more you stand to lose, the more you try to manage the chances you will lose. This is not something expressly unique to full loot games. In some games it might just be gear repair costs and in others it might be a full re-outfitting of your character.
Once again though, when equating the ship as an avatar, it makes no sense to be able to take a ship just as it makes no sense to take a fallen humanoid avatar body. When either is "killed" they are rendered fairly useless; a destroyed ship isn't going to do much just as a dead body isn't likely to accomplish much. I want to agree that the pvp mechanic would change if you could take someones ship, but if the 'loser' has to replace their ship anyhow, what change do they see? The winner in this scenario now has a wreck of a ship that they may, or may not, have had the skills to fly anyhow. So, how is the mechanic changed for them if the alternative was to salvage the wreck and take the cargo anyhow?
As far as the second paragraph, I think this gets to the different play styles and resulting views on full loot (at least partially). I know that in EvE, the new tutorials actually force you to lose ships with the goal being that a player gets comfortable with the idea that they will lose stuff throughout their life in EvE. I think these leads to less attachment to items then a game where you might stand around a capital city in your shiny raid gear. Nothing wrong with that mind you, just a different play style. I'll certainly agree that neither is superior as it really is a matter of opinion and nothing else.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
I fail to understand how the victims can't get smart.. If you keep getting pk'd in the same area, and yet, you keep going to said area, solo, expecting a different outcome... Perhaps try and be a lil smarter than the PKs? Perhaps get some "scouts" of your own? Stop being a victim?
Perhaps take your money and play a game where random strangers can't decide for you which parts of the game you're paying for you can access at any given time?
Nah, that's crazy talk!
(Sure, the designers limit access to various aspects of the game as well, whether by quests, 'high level' zones, lockouts, class/race/skill barriers, or whatever. The key is, THEY have a need to make sure the limits they impose present you with goals and challenges which they also give you the tools to eventually overcome. You having a good time is their first, last, and only concern -- when you stop having a good time, they stop getting paid. On the other hand, for the most part, other players do not care if you have a good time, and a good number of them will cut off their nose to spite your face, putting a tremendous amount of effort into finding ways to make sure other players do not have fun, even if it gains them nothing.)
In other words, why should I *bother* going to all that effort to "not be a victim", when there's dozens of games where I don't have to worry about it? What's the point of saying "This is an amazing sandbox world! You can do ANYTHING!", when, in actual practice, the only actions I can take are chosen for me by other players, and I have to change my playstyle, choices, and actions to suit them?
In other other words, playing in a sandbox is no fun when everything you make is kicked over by the bully, and if your goal in the sandbox is to "build a sandcastle" not "find some friends to go fight the bully", you might as well go find another sandbox. Otherwise, you let the bully decide how you're going to play. You don't want to fight; he won't let you NOT fight.
Screw him. Take your bucket and shovel and go somewhere else. Let him stand alone in the sandbox, whining that no one wants to fight him.
"Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men." (Ayn Rand)
I fail to understand how the victims can't get smart.. If you keep getting pk'd in the same area, and yet, you keep going to said area, solo, expecting a different outcome... Perhaps try and be a lil smarter than the PKs? Perhaps get some "scouts" of your own? Stop being a victim?
Perhaps take your money and play a game where random strangers can't decide for you which parts of the game you're paying for you can access at any given time?
Nah, that's crazy talk!
(Sure, the designers limit access to various aspects of the game as well, whether by quests, 'high level' zones, lockouts, class/race/skill barriers, or whatever. The key is, THEY have a need to make sure the limits they impose present you with goals and challenges which they also give you the tools to eventually overcome. You having a good time is their first, last, and only concern -- when you stop having a good time, they stop getting paid. On the other hand, for the most part, other players do not care if you have a good time, and a good number of them will cut off their nose to spite your face, putting a tremendous amount of effort into finding ways to make sure other players do not have fun, even if it gains them nothing.)
In other words, why should I *bother* going to all that effort to "not be a victim", when there's dozens of games where I don't have to worry about it? What's the point of saying "This is an amazing sandbox world! You can do ANYTHING!", when, in actual practice, the only actions I can take are chosen for me by other players, and I have to change my playstyle, choices, and actions to suit them?
In other other words, playing in a sandbox is no fun when everything you make is kicked over by the bully, and if your goal in the sandbox is to "build a sandcastle" not "find some friends to go fight the bully", you might as well go find another sandbox. Otherwise, you let the bully decide how you're going to play. You don't want to fight; he won't let you NOT fight.
Screw him. Take your bucket and shovel and go somewhere else. Let him stand alone in the sandbox, whining that no one wants to fight him.
"Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men." (Ayn Rand)
I don't see the OP mentioning PvP anywhere. I just want to say that i would like the idea with mobs looting me when i have failed to kill them. Why do full loot have to be pvp only?
Now that would be a nice twist wouldn't it? Suppose you (and if your teamed, your group) got wiped by a boss mob. The game now loots you! Your toon now has been a assigned an optional mission of reclaim. Perhaps you have a choice. Forfeit the mob rare item drop for a guarantee drop of your gear. That would defintely mix things up !
Ask UOers how much they enjoyed getting looted by mobs (lizard men, orc mages, trolls, liches, etc). Personally, I found it hilarious but way too many people would be frustrated by it.
Yeah, they complained out of frustration. But then they had those times that they killed a MOB that had looted other players, and found a surprise in the package. Then they were happy.
Giving wins and losses in a game is a more emotional ride, on both ends of the spectrum.
One of the worst things about PKing and looting is that the PKers are smart, and set themselves up for success. The victims can't overcome that without simply not playing the game. Scouts allow PKers to pick and choose their battles, and the targets don't get that option. So such a game becomes a mostly one sided affair.
And it's not that one PKer got you, it's that every PKer keeps getting you. When a player realizes that he's just feeding the PKs and falling behind them in skill and assets, and keeps spending loads of time "working" for stuff only to lose it to PKers time and time again, they are going to question if the game is worth it for them.
I fail to understand how the victims can't get smart..
If you keep getting pk'd in the same area, and yet, you keep going to said area, solo, expecting a different outcome...
Perhaps try and be a lil smarter than the PKs?
Perhaps get some "scouts" of your own?
Stop being a victim?
The victimes do get smarter. However, the amount of effort required to stop a PKer is way greater than the amount of effort the PKer needs to be a pest. Every play session must be an 'expedition' with multiple scouts needed to protect the rest who are actually doing stuff they want to do. It becomes the equivalent of sending in a SWAT team in to secure the area before going to the bathroom. It tires the players out and it becomes much more practical to just stay in the safe areas which are inevitably dull and thus the game itself becomes uninteresting.
I have never (and will never) played a full loot game. I did play EQ when dying meant loosing everything. I remember leaving corpses in hard to reach places and virtually begging for help to get it back. It was a horrifying experience, but the relief from getting your corpse back was amazing. Helping others get their corpses back was a very rewarding engagement also.
I just don't understand the satisfaction PvPers get from killing people in a skewed manner. When you have no chance of loss, what is there to gain?
The idea of losing one item to a mob if it killed you is intriguing though. Sounds like it was cool to get revenge and recover your lost item.
I fail to understand how the victims can't get smart.. If you keep getting pk'd in the same area, and yet, you keep going to said area, solo, expecting a different outcome... Perhaps try and be a lil smarter than the PKs? Perhaps get some "scouts" of your own? Stop being a victim?
Perhaps take your money and play a game where random strangers can't decide for you which parts of the game you're paying for you can access at any given time?
Nah, that's crazy talk!
(Sure, the designers limit access to various aspects of the game as well, whether by quests, 'high level' zones, lockouts, class/race/skill barriers, or whatever. The key is, THEY have a need to make sure the limits they impose present you with goals and challenges which they also give you the tools to eventually overcome. You having a good time is their first, last, and only concern -- when you stop having a good time, they stop getting paid. On the other hand, for the most part, other players do not care if you have a good time, and a good number of them will cut off their nose to spite your face, putting a tremendous amount of effort into finding ways to make sure other players do not have fun, even if it gains them nothing.)
In other words, why should I *bother* going to all that effort to "not be a victim", when there's dozens of games where I don't have to worry about it? What's the point of saying "This is an amazing sandbox world! You can do ANYTHING!", when, in actual practice, the only actions I can take are chosen for me by other players, and I have to change my playstyle, choices, and actions to suit them?
In other other words, playing in a sandbox is no fun when everything you make is kicked over by the bully, and if your goal in the sandbox is to "build a sandcastle" not "find some friends to go fight the bully", you might as well go find another sandbox. Otherwise, you let the bully decide how you're going to play. You don't want to fight; he won't let you NOT fight.
Screw him. Take your bucket and shovel and go somewhere else. Let him stand alone in the sandbox, whining that no one wants to fight him.
"Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men." (Ayn Rand)
You answered this yourself..
You stop those random strangers from not allowing you access to a given area the same way you stop trash mobs in a high level dungeon stopping you from access to the boss mob.
Crazy talk, I know.
If your goal in a gear based game is to get epic lewtz, and not find some friends to go help you kill that boss mob that drops it, you may as well go find another game that allows you to craft epic lewtz..
Screw him. let that boss stand in the bottom of that dungeon by himself.
Wether that boss it at the bottom of an instance, or a pk standing in the wild, you may need to get some strategy up to kill him. Personally, i find more enjoyement killing the red when its all said and done... Some people like killing an NPC, more power to you. But in the end, its a game, and you're trying to overcome an obstacle.
For some reason, people think that in a PvP based game, they will always be the victim. They can never kill a Red Player because, they are the most epic players to walk across the face of an MMO. Reds die just as easily as the rest of us. When you see one, and you drop down into a fetal position becasue he is destroying your gaming experience... Well, chances are, you already lost.
Lemme see... 1) Full loot PvP games usually attract a highly competitive crowd, including but not limited to socially inept human wastelands. Frankly, I don't care to spend time with such people, neither virtually nor otherwise - and in these games they have a much higher impact on my already fairly time-restricted 'play time' than in other games. 2) People may have a competitive job and use games to unwind, instead of getting their kicks virtually after having spend the day behind a counter selling burgers 3) I don't need a risk-vs-reward system with full loot. I played DAoC in set groups for a good while and while you couldn't lose your stuff, it was still an amazing adrenaline rush - simply a very well designed system. Sure sure, all matters of opinion (at least I don't call them 'THE TRUTH !!111'
More MMO people claming other MMO people are socially inept.
Take this conversation to any other genre and they would laugh as soon as you combined "prized possession" and "game."
A full loot PVP game would be a blast as long as the loot is readily available and easy to get. With the current flood of MMORPG's this will not happen. A dev wants the players to have their big carot at the end of their journey and now they are rare to almost non-existent and no a player does not want to lose that item.
I have lost items in the original Lineage 2. The cost was beyond reason so most of the pvp was consensual. There in lies the problem. UO had it right you got looted and went back a crafter could craft you new gear. It was relatively easy to replace. Crafter could even put their unique name on the items.
I think there is a good market for a FFA pvp game with full looting as long as there are also consequences for your actions. The problem is players want to have free reign to do whatever they like without any consequences for their actions. I think there should be a murder tag for PKers and there should be murderer towns and a bounty placed on their heads.
Crafting in the game would be the only way to get better items and the game would be skill point based not level based. Leveling skills should be done during your journey and not just leveling. Fighting players would yield the best results period. A sandbox game would be the only way to do it in my opinion.
The problem is every dev wants WOW's sub numbers when success is actually turning a profit and continuing to add content and support the playerbase. Thus reaping the rewards of a loyal playerbase. Take a look at EVE alot of folks do not like the game but alot have been there since the start and those that do like it stay a long long time. The same can be done in a fantasy setting.
The problem will continue as long as every producer wants Blizzards numbers.
Originally posted by Marcus- You answered this yourself.. You stop those random strangers from not allowing you access to a given area the same way you stop trash mobs in a high level dungeon stopping you from access to the boss mob. Crazy talk, I know. If your goal in a gear based game is to get epic lewtz, and not find some friends to go help you kill that boss mob that drops it, you may as well go find another game that allows you to craft epic lewtz.. Screw him. let that boss stand in the bottom of that dungeon by himself. Wether that boss it at the bottom of an instance, or a pk standing in the wild, you may need to get some strategy up to kill him. Personally, i find more enjoyement killing the red when its all said and done... Some people like killing an NPC, more power to you. But in the end, its a game, and you're trying to overcome an obstacle. For some reason, people think that in a PvP based game, they will always be the victim. They can never kill a Red Player because, they are the most epic players to walk across the face of an MMO. Reds die just as easily as the rest of us. When you see one, and you drop down into a fetal position becasue he is destroying your gaming experience... Well, chances are, you already lost.
So if I kill off the PKer I am then guaranteed that he will not bother me again for another half hour and will not chase me once he respawns and I have moved on from my area?
If I could apply anti-mob methods to other players who attack me, I would love PvP games. The reality is that the PKers are more like the elite mob that keeps respawning almost right away after you kill it. It becomes an endurance race that prevents you from doing anything else.
Originally posted by Marcus- You answered this yourself.. You stop those random strangers from not allowing you access to a given area the same way you stop trash mobs in a high level dungeon stopping you from access to the boss mob. Crazy talk, I know. If your goal in a gear based game is to get epic lewtz, and not find some friends to go help you kill that boss mob that drops it, you may as well go find another game that allows you to craft epic lewtz.. Screw him. let that boss stand in the bottom of that dungeon by himself. Wether that boss it at the bottom of an instance, or a pk standing in the wild, you may need to get some strategy up to kill him. Personally, i find more enjoyement killing the red when its all said and done... Some people like killing an NPC, more power to you. But in the end, its a game, and you're trying to overcome an obstacle. For some reason, people think that in a PvP based game, they will always be the victim. They can never kill a Red Player because, they are the most epic players to walk across the face of an MMO. Reds die just as easily as the rest of us. When you see one, and you drop down into a fetal position becasue he is destroying your gaming experience... Well, chances are, you already lost.
So if I kill off the PKer I am then guaranteed that he will not bother me again for another half hour and will not chase me once he respawns and I have moved on from my area?
If I could apply anti-mob methods to other players who attack me, I would love PvP games. The reality is that the PKers are more like the elite mob that keeps respawning almost right away after you kill it. It becomes an endurance race that prevents you from doing anything else.
I'm not giving you a stop watch, but pretty close yes. Depending where you are compared to his spawn point, coupled with the fact he's needs to gear up again. Yes i know he has a bag in the bank ready to go, but he needs to get there, that will take a lil time
Unless you're standing 5 feet from his spawn point, it won't be "almost right away", and I'd hardly classify them as "elite", but thats just me.
Comments
Im never worried about being looted in an mmo for 2 reasons:
A) its a game and im losing pixels
Other than that, full loot games have no meaning because unles you and your giggling 42 year old buddies have ganked some lone player and looted all the ore hes been gathering, losing your loot is just a minor setback. Most new players will be put off full loot games from the offset, simply because they get ganked over and over by gank squads until theyre left penniless and destitute.
I remember shadowbane where your inventory could be looted. You could spend hours farming mobs and end up with lots of money, items and potions only for some vampire scout to pop out of stealth and kill you when you were at 5% health and lose the lot. It was really annoying and there was no real skill factor to it, it was just a case of preying on somebody when there was no risk to yourself. Most people used to bank everything anyway, so the actual risk was minimal. the same in darkfall. My limited playtime there was the same, bank all your stuff and have backup money, weapons and armour to quickly repalce if you died.
The game that had the worst pvp death penalty by far was, surprisingly, Mythos. In that, gear was very important as it was totally randomised and could be very rare, and any stats you lost from dropping a piece meant the possibility that several other pieces of your equips were no longer wearable due to stat requirements. In pvp if someone killed you, you dropped 1 random piece of equipped armour, jewellry or weapon. It could be some cheapo green ring or a super rare orange chest piece but either way your character was weakened and then had to either buy a potentially expensive replacement or get farming again and hope for the best. PVP only characters could never get out of pvp-pvp was open everywhere, even in towns and quest hubs. If you were in hardcore mode and were killed in pvp, you lost your character as well as everything you were wearing and had banked.
These pvp rules were very unpopular decisions in the community as naked gankers (:P) were camping low level areas and killing people, which showed up what sort of players these type of games attract; those who want no risk or challenge but still want to loot other players for kicks. It doesnt matter if 90% of the rest of the games community is fine, these types of players always have the most impact.
If you want full loot games, then the loot itself has to have meaning or there really isnt any point to it. How many people would play a version of wow where gear was still highly important but everytime you died in WSG everyone could loot you? Every death would mean youd have to trot back to dungeon123 and farm the bosses again, or play arena until you had some new points to spend, or farm gold to buy some new crafted items from the auction house. It would be the worst possible waste of time ever, and im willing to bet most full loot fans wouldnt touch it.
/ramble over
No I look at it more like players looking for welfare handouts because they can't be bothered with crafting, farming or killing named mobs to get the things they want to share/trade/sell. So they gamble on jumping and killing others who take the time to do these things.
When you talk only about full loot as the main topic of your post I only picture lazy players looking for a free meal ticket.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Now that would be a nice twist wouldn't it? Suppose you (and if your teamed, your group) got wiped by a boss mob. The game now loots you! Your toon now has been a assigned an optional mission of reclaim. Perhaps you have a choice. Forfeit the mob rare item drop for a guarantee drop of your gear. That would defintely mix things up !
Finally - Best site for Chuck Norris
http://www.chucknorrisfacts.com/
before wow death actually had consequences.
in daoc you lost a good amount of exp when dieing.
in neocron you lost your whole quickbelt (at beta) and it was nerfed in release to one or two items
i say when death has no penalties, people don't worry bot dieing.
you lose a small amount of honor (or similiar) here and there nowadays, tho that's it.
ik kinda liked the idea of dropping the weapon u actually used while deeing or even lose exp or honor (in an equal amount to the exp or honor the killer gained).
but most people run 24/7 to instances, farm their precious loot, and if they would be at risk of losing it in pvp, i doubt more than 2% would actually go for pvp.
we need a new mmo, an mmo with balls!
for people with the hairiest, grossest balls of steel!
and if you don't like losing your precioussssss... stay in your cave and keep grinding mobs and bosses (eg play wow)
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Now that would be a nice twist wouldn't it? Suppose you (and if your teamed, your group) got wiped by a boss mob. The game now loots you! Your toon now has been a assigned an optional mission of reclaim. Perhaps you have a choice. Forfeit the mob rare item drop for a guarantee drop of your gear. That would defintely mix things up !
Ask UOers how much they enjoyed getting looted by mobs (lizard men, orc mages, trolls, liches, etc). Personally, I found it hilarious but way too many people would be frustrated by it.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
No I look at it more like players looking for welfare handouts because they can be bothered with crafting, farming or killing named mobs to get the things they want to share/trade/sell. So they gamble on jumping and killing others who take the time to do these things.
When you talk only about full loot as the main topic of your post I only picture lazy players looking for a free meal ticket.
You're tone indicates that you're working on the false assumption that the looter places anywhere near the level of importance on your loot as you do, Ramon. Either you haven't played a full loot game and haven't experienced how easily a person can not only re-equip but *gasp* prepare a head of time for loss, or you are way to attached to disposable content.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Now that would be a nice twist wouldn't it? Suppose you (and if your teamed, your group) got wiped by a boss mob. The game now loots you! Your toon now has been a assigned an optional mission of reclaim. Perhaps you have a choice. Forfeit the mob rare item drop for a guarantee drop of your gear. That would defintely mix things up !
Ask UOers how much they enjoyed getting looted by mobs (lizard men, orc mages, trolls, liches, etc). Personally, I found it hilarious but way too many people would be frustrated by it.
I loved trying to pick out which of those dern lizardmen just stole my reagents
Most true, thane. However, WoW somehow got millions of subscribers and the other games subscriptions declined.
So, developers and investors connected the dots. Make the game easy and fun, make money. Make it difficult : don't expect a big return on your investment. Much as I am a critic of Brad McQuaid (original EQ and Vangaurd developer), he made a statement that rings true: (paraphrased because he has fallen/ been bought off lol)
If you make a game where wolves eat sheep, pretty soon the wolves run out of sheep.
No game investor wants to lose money. Hardcore game mechanics and/or design will have much more to overcome than a WoW clone. For enthusiasts like all of us on this forum, we tend to push the more challenging aspects of MMO gameplay. Most of the gaming world doesn't want that experience. They are used to a console/ solo game experience.
Finally - Best site for Chuck Norris
http://www.chucknorrisfacts.com/
Now that would be a nice twist wouldn't it? Suppose you (and if your teamed, your group) got wiped by a boss mob. The game now loots you! Your toon now has been a assigned an optional mission of reclaim. Perhaps you have a choice. Forfeit the mob rare item drop for a guarantee drop of your gear. That would defintely mix things up !
Ask UOers how much they enjoyed getting looted by mobs (lizard men, orc mages, trolls, liches, etc). Personally, I found it hilarious but way too many people would be frustrated by it.
Yeah, they complained out of frustration. But then they had those times that they killed a MOB that had looted other players, and found a surprise in the package. Then they were happy.
Giving wins and losses in a game is a more emotional ride, on both ends of the spectrum.
One of the worst things about PKing and looting is that the PKers are smart, and set themselves up for success. The victims can't overcome that without simply not playing the game. Scouts allow PKers to pick and choose their battles, and the targets don't get that option. So such a game becomes a mostly one sided affair.
And it's not that one PKer got you, it's that every PKer keeps getting you. When a player realizes that he's just feeding the PKs and falling behind them in skill and assets, and keeps spending loads of time "working" for stuff only to lose it to PKers time and time again, they are going to question if the game is worth it for them.
Once upon a time....
Now that would be a nice twist wouldn't it? Suppose you (and if your teamed, your group) got wiped by a boss mob. The game now loots you! Your toon now has been a assigned an optional mission of reclaim. Perhaps you have a choice. Forfeit the mob rare item drop for a guarantee drop of your gear. That would defintely mix things up !
Ask UOers how much they enjoyed getting looted by mobs (lizard men, orc mages, trolls, liches, etc). Personally, I found it hilarious but way too many people would be frustrated by it.
Yeah, they complained out of frustration. But then they had those times that they killed a MOB that had looted other players, and found a surprise in the package. Then they were happy.
Giving wins and losses in a game is a more emotional ride, on both ends of the spectrum.
One of the worst things about PKing and looting is that the PKers are smart, and set themselves up for success. The victims can't overcome that without simply not playing the game. Scouts allow PKers to pick and choose their battles, and the targets don't get that option. So such a game becomes a mostly one sided affair.
And it's not that one PKer got you, it's that every PKer keeps getting you. When a player realizes that he's just feeding the PKs and falling behind them in skill and assets, and keeps spending loads of time "working" for stuff only to lose it to PKers time and time again, they are going to question if the game is worth it for them.
I fail to understand how the victims can't get smart..
If you keep getting pk'd in the same area, and yet, you keep going to said area, solo, expecting a different outcome...
Perhaps try and be a lil smarter than the PKs?
Perhaps get some "scouts" of your own?
Stop being a victim?
Full loot PvP sounds fun. A bunch of people fighting in their underpants with noob swords (literally, the swords they get when they start) because they're afraid to lose anything.
Agreed. However, I think the failure of so many WoW clones recently may swing the genre in a new direction where many different tastes are catered to. Just like other forms of entertainment do.
I can't think of another form of entertainment that only has a single egg and doesn't even need a basket to put it in! It would be akin to walking in to the local bookstore and finding nothing but mystery novels. This lack of depth could end up being the demise of the MMO as a whole for when WoW finally ends its run, what if there are no new ideas to take the spotlight?
Lemme see...
1) Full loot PvP games usually attract a highly competitive crowd, including but not limited to socially inept human wastelands. Frankly, I don't care to spend time with such people, neither virtually nor otherwise - and in these games they have a much higher impact on my already fairly time-restricted 'play time' than in other games.
2) People may have a competitive job and use games to unwind, instead of getting their kicks virtually after having spend the day behind a counter selling burgers
3) I don't need a risk-vs-reward system with full loot. I played DAoC in set groups for a good while and while you couldn't lose your stuff, it was still an amazing adrenaline rush - simply a very well designed system.
Sure sure, all matters of opinion (at least I don't call them 'THE TRUTH !!111'
It's completely true.
This is why Full loot/FFA PVP will remain a niche market. On the plus side, you can pat yourself on the back and tell yourself that YOUR way of pretending to be a magical elf in fairyland is ever so much more rough and tough and macho than someone ELSE'S way of pretending to a magical elf in fairyland. You're a very, very, very, SPECIAL person for being rough and tough and macho enough to not cry when your pretend armor and your pretend weapons are stolen by the other boys. You're very big and brave, and we all think you're just what we wish we could grow up to be.
(Unless you play EVE. *Then* you're pretending to be a magical machine-man who lives inside a great, big, long, hard, metal tube. A great, big, long, hard, metal tube full of precious cargo which it releases when it docks.)
Risk management exists in any game though doesn't it? The more you stand to lose, the more you try to manage the chances you will lose. This is not something expressly unique to full loot games. In some games it might just be gear repair costs and in others it might be a full re-outfitting of your character.
Once again though, when equating the ship as an avatar, it makes no sense to be able to take a ship just as it makes no sense to take a fallen humanoid avatar body. When either is "killed" they are rendered fairly useless; a destroyed ship isn't going to do much just as a dead body isn't likely to accomplish much. I want to agree that the pvp mechanic would change if you could take someones ship, but if the 'loser' has to replace their ship anyhow, what change do they see? The winner in this scenario now has a wreck of a ship that they may, or may not, have had the skills to fly anyhow. So, how is the mechanic changed for them if the alternative was to salvage the wreck and take the cargo anyhow?
As far as the second paragraph, I think this gets to the different play styles and resulting views on full loot (at least partially). I know that in EvE, the new tutorials actually force you to lose ships with the goal being that a player gets comfortable with the idea that they will lose stuff throughout their life in EvE. I think these leads to less attachment to items then a game where you might stand around a capital city in your shiny raid gear. Nothing wrong with that mind you, just a different play style. I'll certainly agree that neither is superior as it really is a matter of opinion and nothing else.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Perhaps take your money and play a game where random strangers can't decide for you which parts of the game you're paying for you can access at any given time?
Nah, that's crazy talk!
(Sure, the designers limit access to various aspects of the game as well, whether by quests, 'high level' zones, lockouts, class/race/skill barriers, or whatever. The key is, THEY have a need to make sure the limits they impose present you with goals and challenges which they also give you the tools to eventually overcome. You having a good time is their first, last, and only concern -- when you stop having a good time, they stop getting paid. On the other hand, for the most part, other players do not care if you have a good time, and a good number of them will cut off their nose to spite your face, putting a tremendous amount of effort into finding ways to make sure other players do not have fun, even if it gains them nothing.)
In other words, why should I *bother* going to all that effort to "not be a victim", when there's dozens of games where I don't have to worry about it? What's the point of saying "This is an amazing sandbox world! You can do ANYTHING!", when, in actual practice, the only actions I can take are chosen for me by other players, and I have to change my playstyle, choices, and actions to suit them?
In other other words, playing in a sandbox is no fun when everything you make is kicked over by the bully, and if your goal in the sandbox is to "build a sandcastle" not "find some friends to go fight the bully", you might as well go find another sandbox. Otherwise, you let the bully decide how you're going to play. You don't want to fight; he won't let you NOT fight.
Screw him. Take your bucket and shovel and go somewhere else. Let him stand alone in the sandbox, whining that no one wants to fight him.
"Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men." (Ayn Rand)
Perhaps take your money and play a game where random strangers can't decide for you which parts of the game you're paying for you can access at any given time?
Nah, that's crazy talk!
(Sure, the designers limit access to various aspects of the game as well, whether by quests, 'high level' zones, lockouts, class/race/skill barriers, or whatever. The key is, THEY have a need to make sure the limits they impose present you with goals and challenges which they also give you the tools to eventually overcome. You having a good time is their first, last, and only concern -- when you stop having a good time, they stop getting paid. On the other hand, for the most part, other players do not care if you have a good time, and a good number of them will cut off their nose to spite your face, putting a tremendous amount of effort into finding ways to make sure other players do not have fun, even if it gains them nothing.)
In other words, why should I *bother* going to all that effort to "not be a victim", when there's dozens of games where I don't have to worry about it? What's the point of saying "This is an amazing sandbox world! You can do ANYTHING!", when, in actual practice, the only actions I can take are chosen for me by other players, and I have to change my playstyle, choices, and actions to suit them?
In other other words, playing in a sandbox is no fun when everything you make is kicked over by the bully, and if your goal in the sandbox is to "build a sandcastle" not "find some friends to go fight the bully", you might as well go find another sandbox. Otherwise, you let the bully decide how you're going to play. You don't want to fight; he won't let you NOT fight.
Screw him. Take your bucket and shovel and go somewhere else. Let him stand alone in the sandbox, whining that no one wants to fight him.
"Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men." (Ayn Rand)
I love lizard. =P
Now that would be a nice twist wouldn't it? Suppose you (and if your teamed, your group) got wiped by a boss mob. The game now loots you! Your toon now has been a assigned an optional mission of reclaim. Perhaps you have a choice. Forfeit the mob rare item drop for a guarantee drop of your gear. That would defintely mix things up !
Ask UOers how much they enjoyed getting looted by mobs (lizard men, orc mages, trolls, liches, etc). Personally, I found it hilarious but way too many people would be frustrated by it.
Yeah, they complained out of frustration. But then they had those times that they killed a MOB that had looted other players, and found a surprise in the package. Then they were happy.
Giving wins and losses in a game is a more emotional ride, on both ends of the spectrum.
One of the worst things about PKing and looting is that the PKers are smart, and set themselves up for success. The victims can't overcome that without simply not playing the game. Scouts allow PKers to pick and choose their battles, and the targets don't get that option. So such a game becomes a mostly one sided affair.
And it's not that one PKer got you, it's that every PKer keeps getting you. When a player realizes that he's just feeding the PKs and falling behind them in skill and assets, and keeps spending loads of time "working" for stuff only to lose it to PKers time and time again, they are going to question if the game is worth it for them.
I fail to understand how the victims can't get smart..
If you keep getting pk'd in the same area, and yet, you keep going to said area, solo, expecting a different outcome...
Perhaps try and be a lil smarter than the PKs?
Perhaps get some "scouts" of your own?
Stop being a victim?
The victimes do get smarter. However, the amount of effort required to stop a PKer is way greater than the amount of effort the PKer needs to be a pest. Every play session must be an 'expedition' with multiple scouts needed to protect the rest who are actually doing stuff they want to do. It becomes the equivalent of sending in a SWAT team in to secure the area before going to the bathroom. It tires the players out and it becomes much more practical to just stay in the safe areas which are inevitably dull and thus the game itself becomes uninteresting.
I have never (and will never) played a full loot game. I did play EQ when dying meant loosing everything. I remember leaving corpses in hard to reach places and virtually begging for help to get it back. It was a horrifying experience, but the relief from getting your corpse back was amazing. Helping others get their corpses back was a very rewarding engagement also.
I just don't understand the satisfaction PvPers get from killing people in a skewed manner. When you have no chance of loss, what is there to gain?
The idea of losing one item to a mob if it killed you is intriguing though. Sounds like it was cool to get revenge and recover your lost item.
Perhaps take your money and play a game where random strangers can't decide for you which parts of the game you're paying for you can access at any given time?
Nah, that's crazy talk!
(Sure, the designers limit access to various aspects of the game as well, whether by quests, 'high level' zones, lockouts, class/race/skill barriers, or whatever. The key is, THEY have a need to make sure the limits they impose present you with goals and challenges which they also give you the tools to eventually overcome. You having a good time is their first, last, and only concern -- when you stop having a good time, they stop getting paid. On the other hand, for the most part, other players do not care if you have a good time, and a good number of them will cut off their nose to spite your face, putting a tremendous amount of effort into finding ways to make sure other players do not have fun, even if it gains them nothing.)
In other words, why should I *bother* going to all that effort to "not be a victim", when there's dozens of games where I don't have to worry about it? What's the point of saying "This is an amazing sandbox world! You can do ANYTHING!", when, in actual practice, the only actions I can take are chosen for me by other players, and I have to change my playstyle, choices, and actions to suit them?
In other other words, playing in a sandbox is no fun when everything you make is kicked over by the bully, and if your goal in the sandbox is to "build a sandcastle" not "find some friends to go fight the bully", you might as well go find another sandbox. Otherwise, you let the bully decide how you're going to play. You don't want to fight; he won't let you NOT fight.
Screw him. Take your bucket and shovel and go somewhere else. Let him stand alone in the sandbox, whining that no one wants to fight him.
"Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men." (Ayn Rand)
You answered this yourself..
You stop those random strangers from not allowing you access to a given area the same way you stop trash mobs in a high level dungeon stopping you from access to the boss mob.
Crazy talk, I know.
If your goal in a gear based game is to get epic lewtz, and not find some friends to go help you kill that boss mob that drops it, you may as well go find another game that allows you to craft epic lewtz..
Screw him. let that boss stand in the bottom of that dungeon by himself.
Wether that boss it at the bottom of an instance, or a pk standing in the wild, you may need to get some strategy up to kill him. Personally, i find more enjoyement killing the red when its all said and done... Some people like killing an NPC, more power to you. But in the end, its a game, and you're trying to overcome an obstacle.
For some reason, people think that in a PvP based game, they will always be the victim. They can never kill a Red Player because, they are the most epic players to walk across the face of an MMO. Reds die just as easily as the rest of us. When you see one, and you drop down into a fetal position becasue he is destroying your gaming experience... Well, chances are, you already lost.
More MMO people claming other MMO people are socially inept.
Take this conversation to any other genre and they would laugh as soon as you combined "prized possession" and "game."
A full loot PVP game would be a blast as long as the loot is readily available and easy to get. With the current flood of MMORPG's this will not happen. A dev wants the players to have their big carot at the end of their journey and now they are rare to almost non-existent and no a player does not want to lose that item.
I have lost items in the original Lineage 2. The cost was beyond reason so most of the pvp was consensual. There in lies the problem. UO had it right you got looted and went back a crafter could craft you new gear. It was relatively easy to replace. Crafter could even put their unique name on the items.
I think there is a good market for a FFA pvp game with full looting as long as there are also consequences for your actions. The problem is players want to have free reign to do whatever they like without any consequences for their actions. I think there should be a murder tag for PKers and there should be murderer towns and a bounty placed on their heads.
Crafting in the game would be the only way to get better items and the game would be skill point based not level based. Leveling skills should be done during your journey and not just leveling. Fighting players would yield the best results period. A sandbox game would be the only way to do it in my opinion.
The problem is every dev wants WOW's sub numbers when success is actually turning a profit and continuing to add content and support the playerbase. Thus reaping the rewards of a loyal playerbase. Take a look at EVE alot of folks do not like the game but alot have been there since the start and those that do like it stay a long long time. The same can be done in a fantasy setting.
The problem will continue as long as every producer wants Blizzards numbers.
Oh, I can "handle" drinking an entire bottle of bad tequila without getting too sick, but that doesn't mean I want to.
"Able to handle" and "want to do" are two different things. I can handle stabbing myself in the hand with a knife, but I'd rather not.
So if I kill off the PKer I am then guaranteed that he will not bother me again for another half hour and will not chase me once he respawns and I have moved on from my area?
If I could apply anti-mob methods to other players who attack me, I would love PvP games. The reality is that the PKers are more like the elite mob that keeps respawning almost right away after you kill it. It becomes an endurance race that prevents you from doing anything else.
So if I kill off the PKer I am then guaranteed that he will not bother me again for another half hour and will not chase me once he respawns and I have moved on from my area?
If I could apply anti-mob methods to other players who attack me, I would love PvP games. The reality is that the PKers are more like the elite mob that keeps respawning almost right away after you kill it. It becomes an endurance race that prevents you from doing anything else.
I'm not giving you a stop watch, but pretty close yes. Depending where you are compared to his spawn point, coupled with the fact he's needs to gear up again. Yes i know he has a bag in the bank ready to go, but he needs to get there, that will take a lil time
Unless you're standing 5 feet from his spawn point, it won't be "almost right away", and I'd hardly classify them as "elite", but thats just me.