I SAY PERMADEATH! Then if you fuck up, you really fuck up.
Also, realistic combat. If you get stabbed with a sword, YOU DIE. If you get burned with a spell, YOU DIE. The only way to survive is by actively parrying/blocking/dodging attacks. If you get shot in the head, YOU DIE. No health bar, no hitpoints, just vital spots that can be attacked.
What is with all the macho chest beating here recently? You nerds really need more in your lives if games mean so much to you.
Well, it is a message board about MMOs, where people discuss different aspects of the genre', which include, but not limited too, the really "hardcore" portions of the MMO community.
Yes and hardcore is a term ego maniacs use to make themselves feel special. I enjoyed old UO's slow skill progression but that doesn't make me hardcore, tough, or any stupid nonsense like that.
If you don't want to read how awesome people consider themselves, might i suggest not reading message boards? You'll not only find it here, but just about any message board, chat room, anywhere people tend to congregate on the web, for that matter.
Just a suggestion.
This place seems full of ego maniacs...
welcome to the web!
But reading message boards is the easiest way to find out how full of shit some people are.
Everyone bitches about how gaming communities are going to shit, but no one wants to step up and try to correct the problem. Nothing will ever change until you change yourself.
Forced grouping and too harsh death penalties will turn off casual players.
(AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH Dances with Amanda Tapping from Stargate series)
All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care. Playing: ESO, WOT, Smite, and Marvel Heroes
"Hardcore" is basically the same as "solar submarine". Sounds cool, doesn't make much sense. The reason you have already stated in your title: most people can't handle it, and thus will dislike it. And niche games are normally earning the company that produced it less money, so they rather want to create an easy but popular game.
Pencil, you're not hardcore enough. I SAY PERMADEATH! Then if you fuck up, you really fuck up. Also, realistic combat. If you get stabbed with a sword, YOU DIE. If you get burned with a spell, YOU DIE. The only way to survive is by actively parrying/blocking/dodging attacks. If you get shot in the head, YOU DIE. No health bar, no hitpoints, just vital spots that can be attacked. HARDCORE!
You've now got me interested in trying out hardcore mode in a game, and since I have both D2 and Torchlight on this machine, I shall begin my adventure posthaste.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Pencil, you're not hardcore enough. I SAY PERMADEATH! Then if you fuck up, you really fuck up. Also, realistic combat. If you get stabbed with a sword, YOU DIE. If you get burned with a spell, YOU DIE. The only way to survive is by actively parrying/blocking/dodging attacks. If you get shot in the head, YOU DIE. No health bar, no hitpoints, just vital spots that can be attacked. HARDCORE!
You've now got me interested in trying out hardcore mode in a game, and since I have both D2 and Torchlight on this machine, I shall begin my adventure posthaste.
I also think that there should be a small, protected starting village. However, once you leave the village, you are swamped by thousands of mobs. Everything from bandits to mad cows. That'll really test your skills, eh? HARDCORE!
Pencil, you're not hardcore enough. I SAY PERMADEATH! Then if you fuck up, you really fuck up. Also, realistic combat. If you get stabbed with a sword, YOU DIE. If you get burned with a spell, YOU DIE. The only way to survive is by actively parrying/blocking/dodging attacks. If you get shot in the head, YOU DIE. No health bar, no hitpoints, just vital spots that can be attacked. HARDCORE!
You've now got me interested in trying out hardcore mode in a game, and since I have both D2 and Torchlight on this machine, I shall begin my adventure posthaste.
I also think that there should be a small, protected starting village. However, once you leave the village, you are swamped by thousands of mobs. Everything from bandits to mad cows. That'll really test your skills, eh? HARDCORE!
And if you dont eat, YOU DIE.. and if you dont drink YOU DIE! HARDCORE! Let's get sooo realistic! Start out as an infant! HARDCORE! It'll take 16 years to mature, the entire time you have to train with a stick! HARDCORE! They have to be RL years or else it wont be HARDCORE! Also bathe regularly, if not you can get sick and die! HARDCORE! .. uhm... HARDCORE!
Wile the other poster is joking, there is no other hardcore pve mechanic than permadeath. If you want anything else you are just talking levels of carebear. Until you have that, your accomplishments mean nothing more than how much tedium you can take.
The real truth is you have hardcore players and casual players, in MMORPG's they BOTH can find their own niche, the big issue here is many don't want to find that as they keep being lead like sheeps, yet blame the company or it's developers for their own behaviour.....
If you want hardcore PVE then make your playstyle do that. If you want the game to hold your hand then let your playstyle do that.
I really do not understand these hardcore topics, as to me hardcore is a playstyle and can be done in about any game you wish to be hardcore in. If a game doesn't offer that what you look for then just leave, kinda simple and definitly not the end of the world, handholding is a choice if you don't want it then don't let it.
What we had 9/10/15 years ago should be considered more experimentations in this genre (overall this genre is still prety young), do I want feature's we had in the past to be updated in all way's into a new next gen MMORPG, OF COURSE I would love seeing that, But I don't see a reason why one type of playstyle player needs to insult another playstyle player. As that's all it is a playstyle as said before that can be played in about any MMORPG you wish, but again the issue is that people don't really want to, cause oh noooo, they might fall behind and others who might raise lvl's more quickly............
Wile the other poster is joking, there is no other hardcore pve mechanic than permadeath. If you want anything else you are just talking levels of carebear. Until you have that, your accomplishments mean nothing more than how much tedium you can take.
The only problem with Permadeath is it acts as a hit upon "Persistent Character Identity".
An MMO = persistent world + persistent characters + persistent community
The middle part of the above equation is blown out with permadeath.
However... there could be "some" uses for permadeath. Say a "plague" sweeps the lands every 2 or 3 real time years in the MMO's lifespan, and those who die from the plague suffer permadeath. Talk about spreading fear in the realm.
And, maybe going up against "the gods" or "the demi-gods" can yield the most treasure, but at risk of permadeath (i.e, being forcefully taken out of the Cycle of Life forever.)
I would not even mind if dying by the hands of undead incurred some very low (2%) risk of being permanently converted into an undead, and hence permadeath. This would make fighting certain creatures especially scary, as they should be, and thus heighten immersion and respect for certain zones (i.e., haunted keeps, dark forests, etc...)
Remember, a death penalty is more about immersion and encouraging superior gameplay than it is about the desire to inflict grief upon the player community. Therefore, "permadeath" could have some limited uses, but wholesale use (you die, you're gone) is stepping a bit too far. I think they call such servers "Iron Man" servers, and there may be a niche group of players who would play on those, but I would not base an entire MMO on such.
What is funny is that nobody considered EQ a hard MMORPG back then, it was just a plain normal game. I wonder if WOW will be considered hardcore in 2015.
In a way, people already are. Ginkeq has made a posting career out of his lament for the old days when WoW offered challenge. And he regularly compares that old WoW challenge to EQ's difficulty.
It's hilarious, because in the first couple of years of WoW's release, which he considers the 'hardcore' years, most posts against WoW were declaring it the 'dumbed' down mmo, a trend continuing to this day. But WoW is now old enough to have those who remember the 'good ol' days' and have forgotten the negative posts against it in the early years. Just as many lament the 'good ol' days' of EQ, without remembering the negatives which drove people from that game to WoW and EQ2, never to return.
Wile the other poster is joking, there is no other hardcore pve mechanic than permadeath. If you want anything else you are just talking levels of carebear. Until you have that, your accomplishments mean nothing more than how much tedium you can take.
The only problem with Permadeath is it acts as a hit upon "Persistent Character Identity".
An MMO = persistent world + persistent characters + persistent community
The middle part of the above equation is blown out with permadeath.
Mind you I wouldn't bother playing most perma-death games, nor would I ever want to be called hardcore in any game. However, regardless of persistant world or not, permadeath in a mmo is the hardcore end of MMOs. Everything else is just some level of being a carebear (of which I am). It's kind of like arguing over who's toughest at the beanie baby convention.
10% xp hit per death? That's just another time sink. There's no risk, other than more time spent grinding mobs/quests/baubles.
I could see someone make this work with a family clan type structure. You don't worry about the individual, just the good of the family. Or a game where leveling was not really that tough like GW.
Either way, posturing on how hardcore your 40 man raid was is kind of silly when there is no real risk involved in most games anyway.
Again, to stress, I certainly don't want to see games head this way. I'm not much of a masicist and I have no real desire to prove how l33t my skills are. I like to play, I don't care whether the game measures up to anyone's definition of hardcore as long as I am having fun.
They think their time is valuable and they are forcing themselves to sit and play the game when they can be doing other stuff? They are being hardcore on themselves???
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
PVP istelf is a great and varied subject in Gaming. I think all MMORPG's should have them. For there is no game without antagony, either from the environment or ,other players, or better yet, both.
The essential reason why players have trouble coping with PVP is not the "sting feeiing of getting popped" this is part of the ecxitment and one that all players learn to enjoy after a while. But the real issue as to why players can't cope with PVP is because their CPU's cant handle it. For ex. I enjoy a PVP situation, but i don't enjoy the latency that occurs from it. Most hard core PVP'ers have hard core CPU's . More power to them- but the majority of the total online gaming community have midrange CPUs. Keep in mind that the majority who have mid range CPU'c still contribute financially to the gaming industry itself. So one shouldn't knock them. So instead, mid range users must find a way to enjoy their gaming exp on limited equippment, this they do by adapting to the more routine pleasures of PVE.
Having both experiences availible to gamers as a whole I think is best. And high end game devs should work to create a standard where the games have designated zones/areas where PVP can take place. Thereby allowing lesser players to still enjoy thier exp without the worries of latency from unexpected PVP. Because in the end hard core PVPers expect to pvp as they dont experience the disadvantages of latency to the degree of incapacity. And a PVEer should expect to progress in their game unscathed by a PVPer to which they have no chance of even minimal use of defenses because of latency, even if they have mid-grape cpu equippment.
Wile the other poster is joking, there is no other hardcore pve mechanic than permadeath. If you want anything else you are just talking levels of carebear. Until you have that, your accomplishments mean nothing more than how much tedium you can take.
The only problem with Permadeath is it acts as a hit upon "Persistent Character Identity".
An MMO = persistent world + persistent characters + persistent community
The middle part of the above equation is blown out with permadeath.
Mind you I wouldn't bother playing most perma-death games, nor would I ever want to be called hardcore in any game. However, regardless of persistant world or not, permadeath in a mmo is the hardcore end of MMOs. Everything else is just some level of being a carebear (of which I am). It's kind of like arguing over who's toughest at the beanie baby convention.
10% xp hit per death? That's just another time sink. There's no risk, other than more time spent grinding mobs/quests/baubles.
I could see someone make this work with a family clan type structure. You don't worry about the individual, just the good of the family. Or a game where leveling was not really that tough like GW.
Either way, posturing on how hardcore your 40 man raid was is kind of silly when there is no real risk involved in most games anyway.
Again, to stress, I certainly don't want to see games head this way. I'm not much of a masicist and I have no real desire to prove how l33t my skills are. I like to play, I don't care whether the game measures up to anyone's definition of hardcore as long as I am having fun.
To me "hardcore" is not so much of a pissing contest but something to get the players immersed and to feel.
If a game has no death penalty, then trekking through the Dark Forest will be a mundane experience at best. Heck, I might even get my character killed on purpose so I can port to the other side.
However, if the death penalty is ratcheted up a bit so that dying has some "sting" to it, then the trek through the Dark Forest will be an exciting and spooky journey, and will get the adrenaline pumping a bit.
So, imagine a death penalty scale, with two polar extremes and some optimum setting in between:
Arguably, if the penalty is too "wimpy", then all achievements are meaningless, and challenge and fun sort of go out the window. If the penalty is too "extreme", folks hardly ever venture outside of town, and players start to quit.
There is some center point that is just right, IMO, and that would bring back immersion and a sense of adventure to MMO gaming.
Wile the other poster is joking, there is no other hardcore pve mechanic than permadeath. If you want anything else you are just talking levels of carebear. Until you have that, your accomplishments mean nothing more than how much tedium you can take.
The only problem with Permadeath is it acts as a hit upon "Persistent Character Identity".
An MMO = persistent world + persistent characters + persistent community
The middle part of the above equation is blown out with permadeath.
Mind you I wouldn't bother playing most perma-death games, nor would I ever want to be called hardcore in any game. However, regardless of persistant world or not, permadeath in a mmo is the hardcore end of MMOs. Everything else is just some level of being a carebear (of which I am). It's kind of like arguing over who's toughest at the beanie baby convention.
10% xp hit per death? That's just another time sink. There's no risk, other than more time spent grinding mobs/quests/baubles.
I could see someone make this work with a family clan type structure. You don't worry about the individual, just the good of the family. Or a game where leveling was not really that tough like GW.
Either way, posturing on how hardcore your 40 man raid was is kind of silly when there is no real risk involved in most games anyway.
Again, to stress, I certainly don't want to see games head this way. I'm not much of a masicist and I have no real desire to prove how l33t my skills are. I like to play, I don't care whether the game measures up to anyone's definition of hardcore as long as I am having fun.
To me "hardcore" is not so much of a pissing contest but something to get the players immersed and to feel.
If a game has no death penalty, then trekking through the Dark Forest will be a mundane experience at best. Heck, I might even get my character killed on purpose so I can port to the other side.
However, if the death penalty is ratcheted up a bit so that dying has some "sting" to it, then the trek through the Dark Forest will be an exciting and spooky journey, and will get the adrenaline pumping a bit.
So, imagine a death penalty scale, with two polar extremes and some optimum setting in between:
Arguably, if the penalty is too "wimpy", then all achievements are meaningless, and challenge and fun sort of go out the window. If the penalty is too "extreme", folks hardly ever venture outside of town, and players start to quit.
There is some center point that is just right, IMO, and that would bring back immersion and a sense of adventure to MMO gaming.
But everyone's scale is different. For you, its whimpy for a penalty to equal 5-10 minutes of playtime. For others thats acceptable. For some an hour of grinding might seem perfect but for most an hour is 1/2 a play session. So all that matters is the player base and if they're having fun. Is a person WHIMPY because he doesn't feel an hour doing repetitive, boring grinding is productive or fun or is a person a LOSER because he thinks farming for gold for an hour after each death makes their playtime exciting?
For me WOW had a great penalty when I play seriously back before TBC. A few minutes running back to my corpse and some coin for repair bills. It stung enough. The expansions I played so casually, I frankly didn't care=) WAR on the other hand had barely any penalty to speak of. I still cared about dying in WOW though. But in WAR I used it as a travel device and still had fun, since I don't NEED the game to kick me in the nuts to feel pumped. I quit after 5 months, but the penalty had nothing to do with it. The threat of my time being stolen from me is not a motivator to PLAY BETTER. Its motivation to just say bye, I have better things to do and better games to play that value my time. I guarantee MOST people feel this way. There's nothing hardcore about one's willingness to waste their time.
Your idea that meaningless penalties aren't fun doesn't actually mean anything because WOW still dominates with authority, so MORE people are having fun there than most MMOs combined. Everyone's fun is subjective, but obviously millions of people aren't delusional and paying for something they don't like. And NO, a game exactly like WOW with a tougher penalty would NOT make more people happy. It would only make a tiny niche happy;)
Wile the other poster is joking, there is no other hardcore pve mechanic than permadeath. If you want anything else you are just talking levels of carebear. Until you have that, your accomplishments mean nothing more than how much tedium you can take.
The only problem with Permadeath is it acts as a hit upon "Persistent Character Identity".
An MMO = persistent world + persistent characters + persistent community
The middle part of the above equation is blown out with permadeath.
Mind you I wouldn't bother playing most perma-death games, nor would I ever want to be called hardcore in any game. However, regardless of persistant world or not, permadeath in a mmo is the hardcore end of MMOs. Everything else is just some level of being a carebear (of which I am). It's kind of like arguing over who's toughest at the beanie baby convention.
10% xp hit per death? That's just another time sink. There's no risk, other than more time spent grinding mobs/quests/baubles.
I could see someone make this work with a family clan type structure. You don't worry about the individual, just the good of the family. Or a game where leveling was not really that tough like GW.
Either way, posturing on how hardcore your 40 man raid was is kind of silly when there is no real risk involved in most games anyway.
Again, to stress, I certainly don't want to see games head this way. I'm not much of a masicist and I have no real desire to prove how l33t my skills are. I like to play, I don't care whether the game measures up to anyone's definition of hardcore as long as I am having fun.
To me "hardcore" is not so much of a pissing contest but something to get the players immersed and to feel.
If a game has no death penalty, then trekking through the Dark Forest will be a mundane experience at best. Heck, I might even get my character killed on purpose so I can port to the other side.
However, if the death penalty is ratcheted up a bit so that dying has some "sting" to it, then the trek through the Dark Forest will be an exciting and spooky journey, and will get the adrenaline pumping a bit.
So, imagine a death penalty scale, with two polar extremes and some optimum setting in between:
Arguably, if the penalty is too "wimpy", then all achievements are meaningless, and challenge and fun sort of go out the window. If the penalty is too "extreme", folks hardly ever venture outside of town, and players start to quit.
There is some center point that is just right, IMO, and that would bring back immersion and a sense of adventure to MMO gaming.
But everyone's scale is different. For you, its whimpy for a penalty to equal 5-10 minutes of playtime. For others thats acceptable. For some an hour of grinding might seem perfect but for most an hour is 1/2 a play session. So all that matters is the player base and if they're having fun. Is a person WHIMPY because he doesn't feel an hour doing repetitive, boring grinding is productive or fun or is a person a LOSER because he thinks farming for gold for an hour after each death makes their playtime exciting?
For me WOW had a great penalty when I play seriously back before TBC. A few minutes running back to my corpse and some coin for repair bills. It stung enough. The expansions I played so casually, I frankly didn't care=) WAR on the other hand had barely any penalty to speak of. I still cared about dying in WOW though. But in WAR I used it as a travel device and still had fun, since I don't NEED the game to kick me in the nuts to feel pumped. I quit after 5 months, but the penalty had nothing to do with it. The threat of my time being stolen from me is not a motivator to PLAY BETTER. Its motivation to just say bye, I have better things to do and better games to play that value my time. I guarantee MOST people feel this way. There's nothing hardcore about one's willingness to waste their time.
Your idea that meaningless penalties aren't fun doesn't actually mean anything because WOW still dominates with authority, so MORE people are having fun there than most MMOs combined. Everyone's fun is subjective, but obviously millions of people aren't delusional and paying for something they don't like. And NO, a game exactly like WOW with a tougher penalty would NOT make more people happy. It would only make a tiny niche happy;)
Josher, you act like the biggest contrarian ("But what if everyone's scale is different?") Josher, "what if everyone doesn't want to play on easy mode?" Contrarian arguments are meaningless. Of course, everyone is somewhat different, but that does not mean bell curve distributions do not exist.
My scale is like the volume dial of a radio. Sure there is TOO LOUD and "I cannot hear", and sure some folks will want the volume up or down a notch, but there is some center-leaning point that "most" folks will enjoy. The purpose of the discussion is to find that point, or get close to it, so that immersion and gaming enjoyment can be maximized.
Josher, contrarian arguments do not add anything to a discussion, so please refrain from them and try adding something useful. Not getting personal, but I cannot think of anything more irritating. Reminds me of when I was on a roleplaying server in which someone chose a name clearly in violation of the policy. I pointed this out and someone replied, "But what if he doesn't like your name?" (Just a silly contrarian response that totally misses the point of complying with the Naming Policy on an RP server.)
WOW dominates because of "polish" and "accessiblity", but, and WOW is now losing subs because of lack of challenge (at least that appears to be so). There are things to take from WOW, certainly. But there are also things to leave behind, and "lack of challenge" is one of them. The gaming community that was new to MMO's when WOW came out is now veteran and they will demand more challenge and immersion in their gaming; at least most of them will.
How about this for a semi-hardcore death mechanic...
Allow the deceased a choice of penalties upon death:
% Experience Loss
% Penalty to All Attributes over "X" in-game hours (time spent logged out will not diminish)
All items remain on corpse and expire in "X" hours
This was there is a meaningful penalty, but it allows the user to decide how they want to handle it. For those looking to get right back into action, they may choose #1. Those planning go to back to the scene of the crime might choose #3. Those who are about to go craft or explore might choose #2 as it won't impact them (unless it also added a movement penalty).
How about this for a semi-hardcore death mechanic... Allow the deceased a choice of penalties upon death:
% Experience Loss % Penalty to All Attributes over "X" in-game hours (time spent logged out will not diminish) All items remain on corpse and expire in "X" hours
This was there is a meaningful penalty, but it allows the user to decide how they want to handle it. For those looking to get right back into action, they may choose #1. Those planning go to back to the scene of the crime might choose #3. Those who are about to go craft or explore might choose #2 as it won't impact them (unless it also added a movement penalty).
Sure, that would work. Heck, even the "chance" of a penalty is enough to get the adrenaline pumping. Maybe some sort of spin on the "Wheel of Fate" in which 90% of the time nothing serious happens, but that 10% is "ouch!".
Main thing is to bring feeling back into MMO gaming. To look forward to making it home from school or work in order to log into "the world" and to see what is going on with the "community."
All of this is much better, I think than going through the motions of instanced or phased solo quest grinding. The thing is, the more serious the death penalty, the less players incur it (i.e. they are much more careful).
What is funny is that nobody considered EQ a hard MMORPG back then, it was just a plain normal game. I wonder if WOW will be considered hardcore in 2015.
6 pages later, this is not entirely true. Before WoW, the entire MMORPG genre was considered to cater to hardcore players due to the large time investment and dedication required for success.
It wasn't until WoW was released that the genre started becoming more accepted among mainstream video game players.
Comments
Pencil, you're not hardcore enough.
I SAY PERMADEATH! Then if you fuck up, you really fuck up.
Also, realistic combat. If you get stabbed with a sword, YOU DIE. If you get burned with a spell, YOU DIE. The only way to survive is by actively parrying/blocking/dodging attacks. If you get shot in the head, YOU DIE. No health bar, no hitpoints, just vital spots that can be attacked.
HARDCORE!
Well, it is a message board about MMOs, where people discuss different aspects of the genre', which include, but not limited too, the really "hardcore" portions of the MMO community.
Yes and hardcore is a term ego maniacs use to make themselves feel special. I enjoyed old UO's slow skill progression but that doesn't make me hardcore, tough, or any stupid nonsense like that.
If you don't want to read how awesome people consider themselves, might i suggest not reading message boards? You'll not only find it here, but just about any message board, chat room, anywhere people tend to congregate on the web, for that matter.
Just a suggestion.
This place seems full of ego maniacs...
welcome to the web!
But reading message boards is the easiest way to find out how full of shit some people are.
Everyone bitches about how gaming communities are going to shit, but no one wants to step up and try to correct the problem. Nothing will ever change until you change yourself.
Forced grouping and too harsh death penalties will turn off casual players.
(AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH Dances with Amanda Tapping from Stargate series)
All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care.
Playing: ESO, WOT, Smite, and Marvel Heroes
I'm just here to comment on the thread title, love it.
"Hardcore" is basically the same as "solar submarine". Sounds cool, doesn't make much sense. The reason you have already stated in your title: most people can't handle it, and thus will dislike it. And niche games are normally earning the company that produced it less money, so they rather want to create an easy but popular game.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
You've now got me interested in trying out hardcore mode in a game, and since I have both D2 and Torchlight on this machine, I shall begin my adventure posthaste.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
You've now got me interested in trying out hardcore mode in a game, and since I have both D2 and Torchlight on this machine, I shall begin my adventure posthaste.
I also think that there should be a small, protected starting village. However, once you leave the village, you are swamped by thousands of mobs. Everything from bandits to mad cows. That'll really test your skills, eh? HARDCORE!
"If you cant change with the times, you get left behind."
maybe some people don´t like hardcore pvp? people tend to do fun things you know
You've now got me interested in trying out hardcore mode in a game, and since I have both D2 and Torchlight on this machine, I shall begin my adventure posthaste.
I also think that there should be a small, protected starting village. However, once you leave the village, you are swamped by thousands of mobs. Everything from bandits to mad cows. That'll really test your skills, eh? HARDCORE!
And if you dont eat, YOU DIE.. and if you dont drink YOU DIE! HARDCORE! Let's get sooo realistic! Start out as an infant! HARDCORE! It'll take 16 years to mature, the entire time you have to train with a stick! HARDCORE! They have to be RL years or else it wont be HARDCORE! Also bathe regularly, if not you can get sick and die! HARDCORE! .. uhm... HARDCORE!
Hummm!
OP I wonder if you know the definition of the word GAME.
Games are not for us to make badass virtual characters and feel like gods. Games are supposed to be fun.
Hardcore PvP and hardcore PvE is pure madness. No company will do that, unless they don't want money back.
More challenges in games? I can go with that. But hardcore?! No thanks.
Wile the other poster is joking, there is no other hardcore pve mechanic than permadeath. If you want anything else you are just talking levels of carebear. Until you have that, your accomplishments mean nothing more than how much tedium you can take.
The real truth is you have hardcore players and casual players, in MMORPG's they BOTH can find their own niche, the big issue here is many don't want to find that as they keep being lead like sheeps, yet blame the company or it's developers for their own behaviour.....
If you want hardcore PVE then make your playstyle do that. If you want the game to hold your hand then let your playstyle do that.
I really do not understand these hardcore topics, as to me hardcore is a playstyle and can be done in about any game you wish to be hardcore in. If a game doesn't offer that what you look for then just leave, kinda simple and definitly not the end of the world, handholding is a choice if you don't want it then don't let it.
What we had 9/10/15 years ago should be considered more experimentations in this genre (overall this genre is still prety young), do I want feature's we had in the past to be updated in all way's into a new next gen MMORPG, OF COURSE I would love seeing that, But I don't see a reason why one type of playstyle player needs to insult another playstyle player. As that's all it is a playstyle as said before that can be played in about any MMORPG you wish, but again the issue is that people don't really want to, cause oh noooo, they might fall behind and others who might raise lvl's more quickly............
The only problem with Permadeath is it acts as a hit upon "Persistent Character Identity".
An MMO = persistent world + persistent characters + persistent community
The middle part of the above equation is blown out with permadeath.
However... there could be "some" uses for permadeath. Say a "plague" sweeps the lands every 2 or 3 real time years in the MMO's lifespan, and those who die from the plague suffer permadeath. Talk about spreading fear in the realm.
And, maybe going up against "the gods" or "the demi-gods" can yield the most treasure, but at risk of permadeath (i.e, being forcefully taken out of the Cycle of Life forever.)
I would not even mind if dying by the hands of undead incurred some very low (2%) risk of being permanently converted into an undead, and hence permadeath. This would make fighting certain creatures especially scary, as they should be, and thus heighten immersion and respect for certain zones (i.e., haunted keeps, dark forests, etc...)
Remember, a death penalty is more about immersion and encouraging superior gameplay than it is about the desire to inflict grief upon the player community. Therefore, "permadeath" could have some limited uses, but wholesale use (you die, you're gone) is stepping a bit too far. I think they call such servers "Iron Man" servers, and there may be a niche group of players who would play on those, but I would not base an entire MMO on such.
In a way, people already are. Ginkeq has made a posting career out of his lament for the old days when WoW offered challenge. And he regularly compares that old WoW challenge to EQ's difficulty.
It's hilarious, because in the first couple of years of WoW's release, which he considers the 'hardcore' years, most posts against WoW were declaring it the 'dumbed' down mmo, a trend continuing to this day. But WoW is now old enough to have those who remember the 'good ol' days' and have forgotten the negative posts against it in the early years. Just as many lament the 'good ol' days' of EQ, without remembering the negatives which drove people from that game to WoW and EQ2, never to return.
Historic perspective can be interesting.
The only problem with Permadeath is it acts as a hit upon "Persistent Character Identity".
An MMO = persistent world + persistent characters + persistent community
The middle part of the above equation is blown out with permadeath.
Mind you I wouldn't bother playing most perma-death games, nor would I ever want to be called hardcore in any game. However, regardless of persistant world or not, permadeath in a mmo is the hardcore end of MMOs. Everything else is just some level of being a carebear (of which I am). It's kind of like arguing over who's toughest at the beanie baby convention.
10% xp hit per death? That's just another time sink. There's no risk, other than more time spent grinding mobs/quests/baubles.
I could see someone make this work with a family clan type structure. You don't worry about the individual, just the good of the family. Or a game where leveling was not really that tough like GW.
Either way, posturing on how hardcore your 40 man raid was is kind of silly when there is no real risk involved in most games anyway.
Again, to stress, I certainly don't want to see games head this way. I'm not much of a masicist and I have no real desire to prove how l33t my skills are. I like to play, I don't care whether the game measures up to anyone's definition of hardcore as long as I am having fun.
Why do people think time consuming =hardcore ...
They think their time is valuable and they are forcing themselves to sit and play the game when they can be doing other stuff? They are being hardcore on themselves???
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
PVP istelf is a great and varied subject in Gaming. I think all MMORPG's should have them. For there is no game without antagony, either from the environment or ,other players, or better yet, both.
The essential reason why players have trouble coping with PVP is not the "sting feeiing of getting popped" this is part of the ecxitment and one that all players learn to enjoy after a while. But the real issue as to why players can't cope with PVP is because their CPU's cant handle it. For ex. I enjoy a PVP situation, but i don't enjoy the latency that occurs from it. Most hard core PVP'ers have hard core CPU's . More power to them- but the majority of the total online gaming community have midrange CPUs. Keep in mind that the majority who have mid range CPU'c still contribute financially to the gaming industry itself. So one shouldn't knock them. So instead, mid range users must find a way to enjoy their gaming exp on limited equippment, this they do by adapting to the more routine pleasures of PVE.
Having both experiences availible to gamers as a whole I think is best. And high end game devs should work to create a standard where the games have designated zones/areas where PVP can take place. Thereby allowing lesser players to still enjoy thier exp without the worries of latency from unexpected PVP. Because in the end hard core PVPers expect to pvp as they dont experience the disadvantages of latency to the degree of incapacity. And a PVEer should expect to progress in their game unscathed by a PVPer to which they have no chance of even minimal use of defenses because of latency, even if they have mid-grape cpu equippment.
The only problem with Permadeath is it acts as a hit upon "Persistent Character Identity".
An MMO = persistent world + persistent characters + persistent community
The middle part of the above equation is blown out with permadeath.
Mind you I wouldn't bother playing most perma-death games, nor would I ever want to be called hardcore in any game. However, regardless of persistant world or not, permadeath in a mmo is the hardcore end of MMOs. Everything else is just some level of being a carebear (of which I am). It's kind of like arguing over who's toughest at the beanie baby convention.
10% xp hit per death? That's just another time sink. There's no risk, other than more time spent grinding mobs/quests/baubles.
I could see someone make this work with a family clan type structure. You don't worry about the individual, just the good of the family. Or a game where leveling was not really that tough like GW.
Either way, posturing on how hardcore your 40 man raid was is kind of silly when there is no real risk involved in most games anyway.
Again, to stress, I certainly don't want to see games head this way. I'm not much of a masicist and I have no real desire to prove how l33t my skills are. I like to play, I don't care whether the game measures up to anyone's definition of hardcore as long as I am having fun.
To me "hardcore" is not so much of a pissing contest but something to get the players immersed and to feel.
If a game has no death penalty, then trekking through the Dark Forest will be a mundane experience at best. Heck, I might even get my character killed on purpose so I can port to the other side.
However, if the death penalty is ratcheted up a bit so that dying has some "sting" to it, then the trek through the Dark Forest will be an exciting and spooky journey, and will get the adrenaline pumping a bit.
So, imagine a death penalty scale, with two polar extremes and some optimum setting in between:
<--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
Wimpy WOW DAOC Just right? EQ1 early UO Extreme
Arguably, if the penalty is too "wimpy", then all achievements are meaningless, and challenge and fun sort of go out the window. If the penalty is too "extreme", folks hardly ever venture outside of town, and players start to quit.
There is some center point that is just right, IMO, and that would bring back immersion and a sense of adventure to MMO gaming.
The only problem with Permadeath is it acts as a hit upon "Persistent Character Identity".
An MMO = persistent world + persistent characters + persistent community
The middle part of the above equation is blown out with permadeath.
Mind you I wouldn't bother playing most perma-death games, nor would I ever want to be called hardcore in any game. However, regardless of persistant world or not, permadeath in a mmo is the hardcore end of MMOs. Everything else is just some level of being a carebear (of which I am). It's kind of like arguing over who's toughest at the beanie baby convention.
10% xp hit per death? That's just another time sink. There's no risk, other than more time spent grinding mobs/quests/baubles.
I could see someone make this work with a family clan type structure. You don't worry about the individual, just the good of the family. Or a game where leveling was not really that tough like GW.
Either way, posturing on how hardcore your 40 man raid was is kind of silly when there is no real risk involved in most games anyway.
Again, to stress, I certainly don't want to see games head this way. I'm not much of a masicist and I have no real desire to prove how l33t my skills are. I like to play, I don't care whether the game measures up to anyone's definition of hardcore as long as I am having fun.
To me "hardcore" is not so much of a pissing contest but something to get the players immersed and to feel.
If a game has no death penalty, then trekking through the Dark Forest will be a mundane experience at best. Heck, I might even get my character killed on purpose so I can port to the other side.
However, if the death penalty is ratcheted up a bit so that dying has some "sting" to it, then the trek through the Dark Forest will be an exciting and spooky journey, and will get the adrenaline pumping a bit.
So, imagine a death penalty scale, with two polar extremes and some optimum setting in between:
<--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
Wimpy WOW DAOC Just right? EQ1 early UO Extreme
Arguably, if the penalty is too "wimpy", then all achievements are meaningless, and challenge and fun sort of go out the window. If the penalty is too "extreme", folks hardly ever venture outside of town, and players start to quit.
There is some center point that is just right, IMO, and that would bring back immersion and a sense of adventure to MMO gaming.
But everyone's scale is different. For you, its whimpy for a penalty to equal 5-10 minutes of playtime. For others thats acceptable. For some an hour of grinding might seem perfect but for most an hour is 1/2 a play session. So all that matters is the player base and if they're having fun. Is a person WHIMPY because he doesn't feel an hour doing repetitive, boring grinding is productive or fun or is a person a LOSER because he thinks farming for gold for an hour after each death makes their playtime exciting?
For me WOW had a great penalty when I play seriously back before TBC. A few minutes running back to my corpse and some coin for repair bills. It stung enough. The expansions I played so casually, I frankly didn't care=) WAR on the other hand had barely any penalty to speak of. I still cared about dying in WOW though. But in WAR I used it as a travel device and still had fun, since I don't NEED the game to kick me in the nuts to feel pumped. I quit after 5 months, but the penalty had nothing to do with it. The threat of my time being stolen from me is not a motivator to PLAY BETTER. Its motivation to just say bye, I have better things to do and better games to play that value my time. I guarantee MOST people feel this way. There's nothing hardcore about one's willingness to waste their time.
Your idea that meaningless penalties aren't fun doesn't actually mean anything because WOW still dominates with authority, so MORE people are having fun there than most MMOs combined. Everyone's fun is subjective, but obviously millions of people aren't delusional and paying for something they don't like. And NO, a game exactly like WOW with a tougher penalty would NOT make more people happy. It would only make a tiny niche happy;)
The only problem with Permadeath is it acts as a hit upon "Persistent Character Identity".
An MMO = persistent world + persistent characters + persistent community
The middle part of the above equation is blown out with permadeath.
Mind you I wouldn't bother playing most perma-death games, nor would I ever want to be called hardcore in any game. However, regardless of persistant world or not, permadeath in a mmo is the hardcore end of MMOs. Everything else is just some level of being a carebear (of which I am). It's kind of like arguing over who's toughest at the beanie baby convention.
10% xp hit per death? That's just another time sink. There's no risk, other than more time spent grinding mobs/quests/baubles.
I could see someone make this work with a family clan type structure. You don't worry about the individual, just the good of the family. Or a game where leveling was not really that tough like GW.
Either way, posturing on how hardcore your 40 man raid was is kind of silly when there is no real risk involved in most games anyway.
Again, to stress, I certainly don't want to see games head this way. I'm not much of a masicist and I have no real desire to prove how l33t my skills are. I like to play, I don't care whether the game measures up to anyone's definition of hardcore as long as I am having fun.
To me "hardcore" is not so much of a pissing contest but something to get the players immersed and to feel.
If a game has no death penalty, then trekking through the Dark Forest will be a mundane experience at best. Heck, I might even get my character killed on purpose so I can port to the other side.
However, if the death penalty is ratcheted up a bit so that dying has some "sting" to it, then the trek through the Dark Forest will be an exciting and spooky journey, and will get the adrenaline pumping a bit.
So, imagine a death penalty scale, with two polar extremes and some optimum setting in between:
<--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
Wimpy WOW DAOC Just right? EQ1 early UO Extreme
Arguably, if the penalty is too "wimpy", then all achievements are meaningless, and challenge and fun sort of go out the window. If the penalty is too "extreme", folks hardly ever venture outside of town, and players start to quit.
There is some center point that is just right, IMO, and that would bring back immersion and a sense of adventure to MMO gaming.
But everyone's scale is different. For you, its whimpy for a penalty to equal 5-10 minutes of playtime. For others thats acceptable. For some an hour of grinding might seem perfect but for most an hour is 1/2 a play session. So all that matters is the player base and if they're having fun. Is a person WHIMPY because he doesn't feel an hour doing repetitive, boring grinding is productive or fun or is a person a LOSER because he thinks farming for gold for an hour after each death makes their playtime exciting?
For me WOW had a great penalty when I play seriously back before TBC. A few minutes running back to my corpse and some coin for repair bills. It stung enough. The expansions I played so casually, I frankly didn't care=) WAR on the other hand had barely any penalty to speak of. I still cared about dying in WOW though. But in WAR I used it as a travel device and still had fun, since I don't NEED the game to kick me in the nuts to feel pumped. I quit after 5 months, but the penalty had nothing to do with it. The threat of my time being stolen from me is not a motivator to PLAY BETTER. Its motivation to just say bye, I have better things to do and better games to play that value my time. I guarantee MOST people feel this way. There's nothing hardcore about one's willingness to waste their time.
Your idea that meaningless penalties aren't fun doesn't actually mean anything because WOW still dominates with authority, so MORE people are having fun there than most MMOs combined. Everyone's fun is subjective, but obviously millions of people aren't delusional and paying for something they don't like. And NO, a game exactly like WOW with a tougher penalty would NOT make more people happy. It would only make a tiny niche happy;)
Josher, you act like the biggest contrarian ("But what if everyone's scale is different?") Josher, "what if everyone doesn't want to play on easy mode?" Contrarian arguments are meaningless. Of course, everyone is somewhat different, but that does not mean bell curve distributions do not exist.
My scale is like the volume dial of a radio. Sure there is TOO LOUD and "I cannot hear", and sure some folks will want the volume up or down a notch, but there is some center-leaning point that "most" folks will enjoy. The purpose of the discussion is to find that point, or get close to it, so that immersion and gaming enjoyment can be maximized.
Josher, contrarian arguments do not add anything to a discussion, so please refrain from them and try adding something useful. Not getting personal, but I cannot think of anything more irritating. Reminds me of when I was on a roleplaying server in which someone chose a name clearly in violation of the policy. I pointed this out and someone replied, "But what if he doesn't like your name?" (Just a silly contrarian response that totally misses the point of complying with the Naming Policy on an RP server.)
WOW dominates because of "polish" and "accessiblity", but, and WOW is now losing subs because of lack of challenge (at least that appears to be so). There are things to take from WOW, certainly. But there are also things to leave behind, and "lack of challenge" is one of them. The gaming community that was new to MMO's when WOW came out is now veteran and they will demand more challenge and immersion in their gaming; at least most of them will.
How about this for a semi-hardcore death mechanic...
Allow the deceased a choice of penalties upon death:
This was there is a meaningful penalty, but it allows the user to decide how they want to handle it. For those looking to get right back into action, they may choose #1. Those planning go to back to the scene of the crime might choose #3. Those who are about to go craft or explore might choose #2 as it won't impact them (unless it also added a movement penalty).
Sure, that would work. Heck, even the "chance" of a penalty is enough to get the adrenaline pumping. Maybe some sort of spin on the "Wheel of Fate" in which 90% of the time nothing serious happens, but that 10% is "ouch!".
Main thing is to bring feeling back into MMO gaming. To look forward to making it home from school or work in order to log into "the world" and to see what is going on with the "community."
All of this is much better, I think than going through the motions of instanced or phased solo quest grinding. The thing is, the more serious the death penalty, the less players incur it (i.e. they are much more careful).
6 pages later, this is not entirely true. Before WoW, the entire MMORPG genre was considered to cater to hardcore players due to the large time investment and dedication required for success.
It wasn't until WoW was released that the genre started becoming more accepted among mainstream video game players.