Wile the other poster is joking, there is no other hardcore pve mechanic than permadeath. If you want anything else you are just talking levels of carebear. Until you have that, your accomplishments mean nothing more than how much tedium you can take.
The only problem with Permadeath is it acts as a hit upon "Persistent Character Identity".
An MMO = persistent world + persistent characters + persistent community
The middle part of the above equation is blown out with permadeath.
Mind you I wouldn't bother playing most perma-death games, nor would I ever want to be called hardcore in any game. However, regardless of persistant world or not, permadeath in a mmo is the hardcore end of MMOs. Everything else is just some level of being a carebear (of which I am). It's kind of like arguing over who's toughest at the beanie baby convention.
10% xp hit per death? That's just another time sink. There's no risk, other than more time spent grinding mobs/quests/baubles.
I could see someone make this work with a family clan type structure. You don't worry about the individual, just the good of the family. Or a game where leveling was not really that tough like GW.
Either way, posturing on how hardcore your 40 man raid was is kind of silly when there is no real risk involved in most games anyway.
Again, to stress, I certainly don't want to see games head this way. I'm not much of a masicist and I have no real desire to prove how l33t my skills are. I like to play, I don't care whether the game measures up to anyone's definition of hardcore as long as I am having fun.
To me "hardcore" is not so much of a pissing contest but something to get the players immersed and to feel.
If a game has no death penalty, then trekking through the Dark Forest will be a mundane experience at best. Heck, I might even get my character killed on purpose so I can port to the other side.
However, if the death penalty is ratcheted up a bit so that dying has some "sting" to it, then the trek through the Dark Forest will be an exciting and spooky journey, and will get the adrenaline pumping a bit.
So, imagine a death penalty scale, with two polar extremes and some optimum setting in between:
Arguably, if the penalty is too "wimpy", then all achievements are meaningless, and challenge and fun sort of go out the window. If the penalty is too "extreme", folks hardly ever venture outside of town, and players start to quit.
There is some center point that is just right, IMO, and that would bring back immersion and a sense of adventure to MMO gaming.
But everyone's scale is different. For you, its whimpy for a penalty to equal 5-10 minutes of playtime. For others thats acceptable. For some an hour of grinding might seem perfect but for most an hour is 1/2 a play session. So all that matters is the player base and if they're having fun. Is a person WHIMPY because he doesn't feel an hour doing repetitive, boring grinding is productive or fun or is a person a LOSER because he thinks farming for gold for an hour after each death makes their playtime exciting?
For me WOW had a great penalty when I play seriously back before TBC. A few minutes running back to my corpse and some coin for repair bills. It stung enough. The expansions I played so casually, I frankly didn't care=) WAR on the other hand had barely any penalty to speak of. I still cared about dying in WOW though. But in WAR I used it as a travel device and still had fun, since I don't NEED the game to kick me in the nuts to feel pumped. I quit after 5 months, but the penalty had nothing to do with it. The threat of my time being stolen from me is not a motivator to PLAY BETTER. Its motivation to just say bye, I have better things to do and better games to play that value my time. I guarantee MOST people feel this way. There's nothing hardcore about one's willingness to waste their time.
Your idea that meaningless penalties aren't fun doesn't actually mean anything because WOW still dominates with authority, so MORE people are having fun there than most MMOs combined. Everyone's fun is subjective, but obviously millions of people aren't delusional and paying for something they don't like. And NO, a game exactly like WOW with a tougher penalty would NOT make more people happy. It would only make a tiny niche happy;)
Josher, you act like the biggest contrarian ("But what if everyone's scale is different?") Josher, "what if everyone doesn't want to play on easy mode?" Contrarian arguments are meaningless. Of course, everyone is somewhat different, but that does not mean bell curve distributions do not exist.
My scale is like the volume dial of a radio. Sure there is TOO LOUD and "I cannot hear", and sure some folks will want the volume up or down a notch, but there is some center-leaning point that "most" folks will enjoy. The purpose of the discussion is to find that point, or get close to it, so that immersion and gaming enjoyment can be maximized.
Josher, contrarian arguments do not add anything to a discussion, so please refrain from them and try adding something useful. Not getting personal, but I cannot think of anything more irritating. Reminds me of when I was on a roleplaying server in which someone chose a name clearly in violation of the policy. I pointed this out and someone replied, "But what if he doesn't like your name?" (Just a silly contrarian response that totally misses the point of complying with the Naming Policy on an RP server.)
WOW dominates because of "polish" and "accessiblity", but, and WOW is now losing subs because of lack of challenge (at least that appears to be so). There are things to take from WOW, certainly. But there are also things to leave behind, and "lack of challenge" is one of them. The gaming community that was new to MMO's when WOW came out is now veteran and they will demand more challenge and immersion in their gaming; at least most of them will.
Since most people playing WOW have not come close to completing everything it has to offer, lack of a challenge is far from its problem. AGE is the only thing hurting WOW. WOW lacks a challenging while LEVELING UP soloing on greens, but there is plenty of challenge if you choose to do it. Its not even debatable. Its a fact. WIthout an armory profile proving you've completed the hardest dungeons, ranked top in the arenas and completed the tougher achievements, don't talk about lack of challenge.
Leveling up in Eve is NOT a challenge. You don't even have to be at the keyboard. You barely have to log in. Playing EVE can be a complete cake walk, even though a challenge is right there if you want it. Same with WOW. You can play on easy mode or you can challenge yourself. This isn't opinion. Its fact.
And last time I checked WOW was in the top 5 best selling PC games for Oct, so obviously people still aren't tired of it;) After 5 years and millions of players, what do you expect anyway? People are going to get bored. I did. Everyone does. If you think EVERYTHING in WOW is easy, good for you. Show us your armory and prove it.
Most folks are enjoying WOW still, so maybe that is the center point after all=) That scale of yours has been proven for about 5 years now. By the way, you can remove your extreme levels of difficulty right out of the equation. They shouldn't even be on the bell curve. Level of difficulty is bascially WOW circa 2004 and WAR. 15 minute penalties or none at all. You won't be finding any popular MMOs most people will like, punishing people any harder than WOW used to. Remember MMORPG.com is NOT, I repeat NOT, most people. Its not even some people;) Its more like, hardly any people;)
What is funny is that nobody considered EQ a hard MMORPG back then, it was just a plain normal game. I wonder if WOW will be considered hardcore in 2015.
6 pages later, this is not entirely true. Before WoW, the entire MMORPG genre was considered to cater to hardcore players due to the large time investment and dedication required for success.
It wasn't until WoW was released that the genre started becoming more accepted among mainstream video game players.
It wasn't until WoW that developers realized they had been wasting their time making games for a niche audience when there were millions of people and potentially millions of dollars to be made making games for the general population. That's how *ALL* things are, making anything for a niche audience just isn't as financially profitable as making it for a large one.
Wasn't that Vanguards claim to fame? A game built by leet nerds for leet nerds.
Here is why a game like this will never be made. The hardcore pve crowd is a niche market. Nothing wrong with that but it is. So a developer could not spend millions of dollars developing a very large game unless the hardcore crowd would be willing to pay a couple hundred dollars per box plus more the likely a larger monthly fee. Then the problem becomes the hardcore pve crowd rips thru content like it is going out of style so in a months time everyone would be crying and moaning that there is no new content.
It would be physically impossible to keep the hardcore pve crowd happy unless you all would be willing to pay thru the nose to have a large staff pumping out weekly content.
Wasn't that Vanguards claim to fame? A game built by leet nerds for leet nerds. Here is why a game like this will never be made. The hardcore pve crowd is a niche market. Nothing wrong with that but it is. So a developer could not spend millions of dollars developing a very large game unless the hardcore crowd would be willing to pay a couple hundred dollars per box plus more the likely a larger monthly fee. Then the problem becomes the hardcore pve crowd rips thru content like it is going out of style so in a months time everyone would be crying and moaning that there is no new content. It would be physically impossible to keep the hardcore pve crowd happy unless you all would be willing to pay thru the nose to have a large staff pumping out weekly content.
I would pay 50+ bucks a month for an "eq" style game with top end graphics. This price would drive away most of the kids and adults who in my opinion are ruining the genre anyways. I would then pay even more a month to have monthly cohesive and well developed content. In fact, I would go so far as paying 100 bucks a month for this type of gameplay and i would still be getting my moneys worth compare to other entertainment industries.Hell just the fact that it would drive away 99% of the kids and pot smoking, crack addled babies as well as the casual would be enough reason for me to pay for it.
And i bet i am not the only one. So here you go devs. Build us the game. We will pay for it.
The PVP'ers want full loot and free range kills, while the carebears want PVE on training wheels. Both of those statements are generalizations and neither apply to either ALL PvP'ers, nor to ALL PvE'ers. But something either group cannot seem to grasp is the challenge of hardcore PVE, with its wandering overconned mobs and stinging death penalties requiring strangers to group together and communicate in order to survive in a dangerous and unforgiving game world. So, except for niche gaming, ENOUGH with FULL LOOT PVP that only drives away most gamers. And ENOUGH with "Candyland" hold-my-hand PVE that bores all but the least cognitive to tears. IT IS TIME FOR HARDCORE PVE, like we had abotu 8 or 9 years ago. (With modern graphics, U.I., new world, of course). While I personally agree with you, at least to a degree, again...not all gamers feel the same way. We're as different as snowflakes. There need to be games for every type of gamer to play, including, the "carebears," and the DFO-style FFA PvP loot crowd. But you ARE correct...it does indeed seem that this is one style of MMO that is missing from our present day repertoire. I can't sincerely think of one modern day MMO that I would call "hardcore," other than if you're talking about "hardcore" as in the amount of time people invest in playing. But hardcore PvE? I can't think of a one...... Still thinking......
Wasn't that Vanguards claim to fame? A game built by leet nerds for leet nerds. Here is why a game like this will never be made. The hardcore pve crowd is a niche market. Nothing wrong with that but it is. So a developer could not spend millions of dollars developing a very large game unless the hardcore crowd would be willing to pay a couple hundred dollars per box plus more the likely a larger monthly fee. Then the problem becomes the hardcore pve crowd rips thru content like it is going out of style so in a months time everyone would be crying and moaning that there is no new content. It would be physically impossible to keep the hardcore pve crowd happy unless you all would be willing to pay thru the nose to have a large staff pumping out weekly content.
No. THIS is part of the new gamer's mentality (not for everyone, but for some). A HARDCORE PvE game would have content that was IMPOSSIBLE to "rip thru" in a month.
"Hardcore PvE" does not mean "PvE that I can pour all of my time and effort into and race to 'end game' (who the fuck created that damn 'end game' idea...it's idiotic)." WoW is not "hardcore" PvE. There are people that play "hardcore." That doesn't mean that the CONTENT is hardcore.
The OP is talking about the content being hardcore. Trust me....what he's saying (or at least what I'm understanding him to say) , is NOT content anyone could "rip thru."
Wasn't that Vanguards claim to fame? A game built by leet nerds for leet nerds. Here is why a game like this will never be made. The hardcore pve crowd is a niche market. Nothing wrong with that but it is. So a developer could not spend millions of dollars developing a very large game unless the hardcore crowd would be willing to pay a couple hundred dollars per box plus more the likely a larger monthly fee. Then the problem becomes the hardcore pve crowd rips thru content like it is going out of style so in a months time everyone would be crying and moaning that there is no new content. It would be physically impossible to keep the hardcore pve crowd happy unless you all would be willing to pay thru the nose to have a large staff pumping out weekly content.
I would pay 50+ bucks a month for an "eq" style game with top end graphics. This price would drive away most of the kids and adults who in my opinion are ruining the genre anyways. I would then pay even more a month to have monthly cohesive and well developed content. In fact, I would go so far as paying 100 bucks a month for this type of gameplay and i would still be getting my moneys worth compare to other entertainment industries.Hell just the fact that it would drive away 99% of the kids and pot smoking, crack addled babies as well as the casual would be enough reason for me to pay for it.
And i bet i am not the only one. So here you go devs. Build us the game. We will pay for it.
Well now all you need to do is organize a couple hundred thousand like minded people, get everyone to agree on definition of hardcore pve. Have everyone agree to pre-order and pay for a box that will cost a couple hundred dollars no refunds and sign a minimum of a 2 year contract for $50 dollars a month.
And then after all that you can walk on some water and maybe turn some into wine.
idk, but i think the real truth is, most people don't feel like killing crappy ai mindlessly when they could be doing that in a single player game with much better AI
With all due respect, this is of course baloney, as evidenced by MMORPG.COM's own poll, which shows that 3 times the number of people are interested in PVE as are interested in PVP.
Of course the same poll also shows that far more players are interested in mostly PVE with a little bit of PVP. But it's time the pro-PVP fringe minority stops hyperventilating about how so many people want PVP, as it's simply not true.
Wasn't that Vanguards claim to fame? A game built by leet nerds for leet nerds. Here is why a game like this will never be made. The hardcore pve crowd is a niche market. Nothing wrong with that but it is. So a developer could not spend millions of dollars developing a very large game unless the hardcore crowd would be willing to pay a couple hundred dollars per box plus more the likely a larger monthly fee. Then the problem becomes the hardcore pve crowd rips thru content like it is going out of style so in a months time everyone would be crying and moaning that there is no new content. It would be physically impossible to keep the hardcore pve crowd happy unless you all would be willing to pay thru the nose to have a large staff pumping out weekly content.
No. THIS is part of the new gamer's mentality (not for everyone, but for some). A HARDCORE PvE game would have content that was IMPOSSIBLE to "rip thru" in a month.
"Hardcore PvE" does not mean "PvE that I can pour all of my time and effort into and race to 'end game' (who the fuck created that damn 'end game' idea...it's idiotic)." WoW is not "hardcore" PvE. There are people that play "hardcore." That doesn't mean that the CONTENT is hardcore.
The OP is talking about the content being hardcore. Trust me....what he's saying (or at least what I'm understanding him to say) , is NOT content anyone could "rip thru."
And you don't think there are those extreme nut bags that would make it their mission to rip thru it in a month? Wasn't there people in old EQ that maxed character pretty quickly? If there wasn't then I'm sure there would be now. The great dork off. How many idiots would kill over for gaming to much?
Massive harsh would drive players away, which would hurt the over all game in the end. But I also think having the same sub-level MOB's, standing in the exact same place, time after time after time again also hurts.
What I'd like to see: More games using LotRO skirmish concept for MOB's; the make up isn't always the same, they come from different spots and Boss's spawn randomly with them. All 3 items to keep you on your toes and ensure the experience doesn't get stale.
I also think if you're just standing there farming MOB's, after the X time it's killed in X seconds, the AI should kick in and start uping the MOB's level and/or tossing bosses into the fight. And keep at it until it maxes out it's level number or it wins the fight.
To be the most successfull in the world will need to have content that is hardcore PvE, hardcore PvP, hardcore raid, hardcore solo and everything in between. And it's then going to have to stick to its guns and not water any of that content when people piss and moan that they can't experience X, Y or Z content.
Wasn't that Vanguards claim to fame? A game built by leet nerds for leet nerds. Here is why a game like this will never be made. The hardcore pve crowd is a niche market. Nothing wrong with that but it is. So a developer could not spend millions of dollars developing a very large game unless the hardcore crowd would be willing to pay a couple hundred dollars per box plus more the likely a larger monthly fee. Then the problem becomes the hardcore pve crowd rips thru content like it is going out of style so in a months time everyone would be crying and moaning that there is no new content. It would be physically impossible to keep the hardcore pve crowd happy unless you all would be willing to pay thru the nose to have a large staff pumping out weekly content.
No. THIS is part of the new gamer's mentality (not for everyone, but for some). A HARDCORE PvE game would have content that was IMPOSSIBLE to "rip thru" in a month.
"Hardcore PvE" does not mean "PvE that I can pour all of my time and effort into and race to 'end game' (who the fuck created that damn 'end game' idea...it's idiotic)." WoW is not "hardcore" PvE. There are people that play "hardcore." That doesn't mean that the CONTENT is hardcore.
The OP is talking about the content being hardcore. Trust me....what he's saying (or at least what I'm understanding him to say) , is NOT content anyone could "rip thru."
And you don't think there are those extreme nut bags that would make it their mission to rip thru it in a month? Wasn't there people in old EQ that maxed character pretty quickly? If there wasn't then I'm sure there would be now. The great dork off. How many idiots would kill over for gaming to much?
Of course there are those "extreme nutbags" that would try to rip thru it in a month. But there are "extreme nutbags" (I LOVE that terminology, by the way...lol) that think FreeRealms is a fun and challenging game too, or that think Darkfall is the end all be all of MMOs, or that think EVE is the salvation of the gaming universe. The gaming populace is a very very diverse bunch of people with different play styles, likes, dislikes, amount of time they can afford to spend, amount of mental effort they are either capable of, or willing to, expend on a game, etc., etc., ad infinitum. It is also rife with "extreme nutbags" of every type. But you can't consider that super small minority of "nutbagists" when designing a game. All games will have a "nutbag ratio" of some sort.
So I suppose what I meant to say is....that the vast majority of gamers would not be able to "rip thru" what the OP is referring to as "hardcore PvE."
The PVP'ers want full loot and free range kills, while the carebears want PVE on training wheels. But something either group cannot seem to grasp is the challenge of hardcore PVE, with its wandering overconned mobs and stinging death penalties requiring strangers to group together and communicate in order to survive in a dangerous and unforgiving game world. So, except for niche gaming, ENOUGH with FULL LOOT PVP that only drives away most gamers. And ENOUGH with "Candyland" hold-my-hand PVE that bores all but the least cognitive to tears. IT IS TIME FOR HARDCORE PVE, like we had abotu 8 or 9 years ago. (With modern graphics, U.I., new world, of course).
Speaking as one of those hardcore PvErs from 8 or 9 years ago...I think it might be time you grew up and realized there is more to life than MMOs. The vast majority of us who played hardcore in the old EQ days have since realized how much of our life we actually lost in doing so. Oh, don't get me wrong, we have some good memories...but we don't want to go back there.
Now...maybe you weren't hardcore back then, and maybe you do have a life (and did) and don't really know what hardcore means. So let me explain to you what hardcore PvE was:
-FCFS World mobs, where guilds were literally fighting to see which side could out DPS the other in hopes of getting credit for the kill.
-Vacations spent camping epic spawns, rather than spending time with ones family.
-Phone calls at 3 AM on a worknight telling you to get your ass online and help take down a mob someone in your guild needed for their epic.
-Getting IMd at work and told you need to leave early to help take down a mob.
-CRing from Plane of Fear at 5 AM, so your corpse doesn't rot, and not actually getting any sleep at all before going to work.
-Losing a level trying to break an encounter and no longer being able to actually zone in to recover your corpse...then having to grind back that level in less than 24 hours so you could go get your gear.
Sound familiar?
If not, you weren't hardcore and shouldn't be talking about things you don't understand. If so, then you already agree with me when I say, "No thank you" to the return of hardcore PvE.
The PVP'ers want full loot and free range kills, while the carebears want PVE on training wheels. But something either group cannot seem to grasp is the challenge of hardcore PVE, with its wandering overconned mobs and stinging death penalties requiring strangers to group together and communicate in order to survive in a dangerous and unforgiving game world. So, except for niche gaming, ENOUGH with FULL LOOT PVP that only drives away most gamers. And ENOUGH with "Candyland" hold-my-hand PVE that bores all but the least cognitive to tears. IT IS TIME FOR HARDCORE PVE, like we had abotu 8 or 9 years ago. (With modern graphics, U.I., new world, of course).
Finally someone with a brain wrote what true mmorpg's should be......
Fact: Majority of mmorpg gamers are PvErs
Fact: Small minority make up the PvPers
Fact: Out of the PvPers 80% are using scripting programs or other forms of hacks to win in PvP
Fact: Here on mmorpg.com the PvP supporters still make up a small % of the majority
i wouldn't mind more challenged pve but I see no for EQ like corpse runs and I really see no reason outside of pvp for anything to require more than a single group or maybe 2 groups. Being challenging is not the same thing as requiring 40 or more people. game wants to succeed they need to realize most of their players will have jobs and families so these guilds in WoW I see advertising for more raiders requiring 20-30 hours a week for raiding to me represent all that is wrong with mmos. These are for entertainment not to be a part time job.
Some of my best times in EQ were times when I had to get help to get my corpse when there were 3 mobs that were way beyond my level around it that could 2 shot me and I could not afford a coffin so a necro could summon me. Those times were amazingly fun. I find it amusing that people are like no that is a terrible idea and it cannot be amusing because it sounds bad but in reality just about everything in EQ was fun pre luclin.
What is funny is that nobody considered EQ a hard MMORPG back then, it was just a plain normal game. I wonder if WOW will be considered hardcore in 2015.
In a way, people already are. Ginkeq has made a posting career out of his lament for the old days when WoW offered challenge. And he regularly compares that old WoW challenge to EQ's difficulty.
It's hilarious, because in the first couple of years of WoW's release, which he considers the 'hardcore' years, most posts against WoW were declaring it the 'dumbed' down mmo, a trend continuing to this day. But WoW is now old enough to have those who remember the 'good ol' days' and have forgotten the negative posts against it in the early years. Just as many lament the 'good ol' days' of EQ, without remembering the negatives which drove people from that game to WoW and EQ2, never to return.
Historic perspective can be interesting.
I am not sure it was the negatives that drove people away from EQ. I think it was the fact that all at once these new experiences came out and why not try something new? So people try something new and get hooked by it and then never go back to a game that has crappy graphics by todays or even in 2004s standards. For instance I would love to play EQ pre Luclin but that does not exist and the graphics will be so painful to look at all day it will be even harder. I would love to make a barbarian and go kill me some wholly mammoths and stand in awe at the guys killing ice giants again. EQ with updated graphics and a reset on some of the mechanics they added would be great and I think would attract a lot of people but the graphics are sooo outdated and the game has changed SOO much that I am not sure it is worth it to play EQ again in its current form.
I would pay 50+ bucks a month for an "eq" style game with top end graphics. This price would drive away most of the kids and adults who in my opinion are ruining the genre anyways. I would then pay even more a month to have monthly cohesive and well developed content. In fact, I would go so far as paying 100 bucks a month for this type of gameplay and i would still be getting my moneys worth compare to other entertainment industries.Hell just the fact that it would drive away 99% of the kids and pot smoking, crack addled babies as well as the casual would be enough reason for me to pay for it. And i bet i am not the only one. So here you go devs. Build us the game. We will pay for it.
Well now all you need to do is organize a couple hundred thousand like minded people, get everyone to agree on definition of hardcore pve. Have everyone agree to pre-order and pay for a box that will cost a couple hundred dollars no refunds and sign a minimum of a 2 year contract for $50 dollars a month.
And then after all that you can walk on some water and maybe turn some into wine.
You make it seem like this isnt possible. Theres going to come a day that the mmo market is all broken up into niche markets since, as been pointed out, theres such a diverse player base. I dont want to pay more money just to "feel" elite or "hardcore". I would pay more money to get a game that is more to my preference and combining the cost and the gameplay would in my opinion gve me a better community to have to deal with.
I dont want to play Candyland or Checkers (WoW). I want to play Trivia Pursuit or Chess (EQ style).
I would pay 50+ bucks a month for an "eq" style game with top end graphics. This price would drive away most of the kids and adults who in my opinion are ruining the genre anyways. I would then pay even more a month to have monthly cohesive and well developed content. In fact, I would go so far as paying 100 bucks a month for this type of gameplay and i would still be getting my moneys worth compare to other entertainment industries.Hell just the fact that it would drive away 99% of the kids and pot smoking, crack addled babies as well as the casual would be enough reason for me to pay for it. And i bet i am not the only one. So here you go devs. Build us the game. We will pay for it.
Well now all you need to do is organize a couple hundred thousand like minded people, get everyone to agree on definition of hardcore pve. Have everyone agree to pre-order and pay for a box that will cost a couple hundred dollars no refunds and sign a minimum of a 2 year contract for $50 dollars a month.
And then after all that you can walk on some water and maybe turn some into wine.
You make it seem like this isnt possible.
You make it seem like until you actually try and find out for yourself, you're still going to believe it is possible.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I would pay 50+ bucks a month for an "eq" style game with top end graphics. This price would drive away most of the kids and adults who in my opinion are ruining the genre anyways. I would then pay even more a month to have monthly cohesive and well developed content. In fact, I would go so far as paying 100 bucks a month for this type of gameplay and i would still be getting my moneys worth compare to other entertainment industries.Hell just the fact that it would drive away 99% of the kids and pot smoking, crack addled babies as well as the casual would be enough reason for me to pay for it. And i bet i am not the only one. So here you go devs. Build us the game. We will pay for it.
Well now all you need to do is organize a couple hundred thousand like minded people, get everyone to agree on definition of hardcore pve. Have everyone agree to pre-order and pay for a box that will cost a couple hundred dollars no refunds and sign a minimum of a 2 year contract for $50 dollars a month.
And then after all that you can walk on some water and maybe turn some into wine.
You make it seem like this isnt possible.
You make it seem like until you actually try and find out for yourself, you're still going to believe it is possible.
[edited for rediculous length- sorry guys, I didn't preview it]
I think the word "hardcore" in this argument is pretty ambiguous at this point, some people meaning "extremely difficult" (I imagine something like Demon's Souls Online, if there were such a thing), and some meaning something along the lines of "intense and compelling" (which if also "challenging yet rewarding" could translate to "a lot of fun for most people") If we are simply arguing for or against the OP's view (which I thought was the purpose of this thread), it is important to look at how games have addressed PvE in the past, and what seems to work best for the most people. I would argue that there is a larger market for my second definition, but a very limited one (at least in the western world) for the first.
To summarize, to me a heavy PvP game with minimal PvE feels to be lacking in content, but a fully fleshed-out and compelling PvE experience with the added spice of balanced PvP gameplay feels like a complete game, and would likely jive with a large player base.
There should be a word limit on a user's first post.
The more hardcore a game gets, the less subs it will retain after the initial launch. Everyone loves to brag about how hardcore they are but very very few love to play a hardcore game.
Expirience penalties are stupid. They where stupid in EQ, they are stupid now. Noone with a life would EVER want such a thing, because if you have a life, your time is worth something, and you only have so much recreational time, having several hours of it negated is not fun, or exciting, or challenging, it's just frustrating , designing a game with feature meant simply to frustrate is ridiculous.
I don't mind if it take a long time to get somewhere, or if it's very challenging, but let keep what I've accomplished. I always felt like my subscription fee was being stolen when I lost a level, and in the EQ days I didn't have a life (hence I put up with it, though I shouldn't have) I would never stick around for a game that does this in this day and age, as most people wouldn't, hence it isn't done anymore. Let me rephrase that: Like most thing you so called "Hardcore" players (who are everything but) whine about IF IT WAS A GOOD IDEA GAMES WOULD STILL BE DOING IT!!!!
That's what kills me. It's not like you morons ever preach about something new, that game developers are afraid to try... no your preaching about old, been there done that, got the tee shirt (literally) features that had their chance, didn't work out, and fell by the wayside.
Oh, and for my final flame bait: WoW is not easier just because leveling does not entail waiting 15 minutes for the runner to pull another bear into the camp for 1/20th a % of a level!
Anyone play Shenmue? Remeber when you got a job moving crates? Was it hard? Hell no. But by the standards of so called "Hardcore" players, it doesn't get anymore "Hardcore" than that.
Pencil, you're not hardcore enough. I SAY PERMADEATH! Then if you fuck up, you really fuck up. Also, realistic combat. If you get stabbed with a sword, YOU DIE. If you get burned with a spell, YOU DIE. The only way to survive is by actively parrying/blocking/dodging attacks. If you get shot in the head, YOU DIE. No health bar, no hitpoints, just vital spots that can be attacked. HARDCORE!
You, sir, just made my day! Best thing I've read in weeks.
HARDCORE!
But, really, everyone has their own definition of what "hardcore PvE" should be. So how does one try to apply to all those different tastes?
Comments
The only problem with Permadeath is it acts as a hit upon "Persistent Character Identity".
An MMO = persistent world + persistent characters + persistent community
The middle part of the above equation is blown out with permadeath.
Mind you I wouldn't bother playing most perma-death games, nor would I ever want to be called hardcore in any game. However, regardless of persistant world or not, permadeath in a mmo is the hardcore end of MMOs. Everything else is just some level of being a carebear (of which I am). It's kind of like arguing over who's toughest at the beanie baby convention.
10% xp hit per death? That's just another time sink. There's no risk, other than more time spent grinding mobs/quests/baubles.
I could see someone make this work with a family clan type structure. You don't worry about the individual, just the good of the family. Or a game where leveling was not really that tough like GW.
Either way, posturing on how hardcore your 40 man raid was is kind of silly when there is no real risk involved in most games anyway.
Again, to stress, I certainly don't want to see games head this way. I'm not much of a masicist and I have no real desire to prove how l33t my skills are. I like to play, I don't care whether the game measures up to anyone's definition of hardcore as long as I am having fun.
To me "hardcore" is not so much of a pissing contest but something to get the players immersed and to feel.
If a game has no death penalty, then trekking through the Dark Forest will be a mundane experience at best. Heck, I might even get my character killed on purpose so I can port to the other side.
However, if the death penalty is ratcheted up a bit so that dying has some "sting" to it, then the trek through the Dark Forest will be an exciting and spooky journey, and will get the adrenaline pumping a bit.
So, imagine a death penalty scale, with two polar extremes and some optimum setting in between:
<--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
Wimpy WOW DAOC Just right? EQ1 early UO Extreme
Arguably, if the penalty is too "wimpy", then all achievements are meaningless, and challenge and fun sort of go out the window. If the penalty is too "extreme", folks hardly ever venture outside of town, and players start to quit.
There is some center point that is just right, IMO, and that would bring back immersion and a sense of adventure to MMO gaming.
But everyone's scale is different. For you, its whimpy for a penalty to equal 5-10 minutes of playtime. For others thats acceptable. For some an hour of grinding might seem perfect but for most an hour is 1/2 a play session. So all that matters is the player base and if they're having fun. Is a person WHIMPY because he doesn't feel an hour doing repetitive, boring grinding is productive or fun or is a person a LOSER because he thinks farming for gold for an hour after each death makes their playtime exciting?
For me WOW had a great penalty when I play seriously back before TBC. A few minutes running back to my corpse and some coin for repair bills. It stung enough. The expansions I played so casually, I frankly didn't care=) WAR on the other hand had barely any penalty to speak of. I still cared about dying in WOW though. But in WAR I used it as a travel device and still had fun, since I don't NEED the game to kick me in the nuts to feel pumped. I quit after 5 months, but the penalty had nothing to do with it. The threat of my time being stolen from me is not a motivator to PLAY BETTER. Its motivation to just say bye, I have better things to do and better games to play that value my time. I guarantee MOST people feel this way. There's nothing hardcore about one's willingness to waste their time.
Your idea that meaningless penalties aren't fun doesn't actually mean anything because WOW still dominates with authority, so MORE people are having fun there than most MMOs combined. Everyone's fun is subjective, but obviously millions of people aren't delusional and paying for something they don't like. And NO, a game exactly like WOW with a tougher penalty would NOT make more people happy. It would only make a tiny niche happy;)
Josher, you act like the biggest contrarian ("But what if everyone's scale is different?") Josher, "what if everyone doesn't want to play on easy mode?" Contrarian arguments are meaningless. Of course, everyone is somewhat different, but that does not mean bell curve distributions do not exist.
My scale is like the volume dial of a radio. Sure there is TOO LOUD and "I cannot hear", and sure some folks will want the volume up or down a notch, but there is some center-leaning point that "most" folks will enjoy. The purpose of the discussion is to find that point, or get close to it, so that immersion and gaming enjoyment can be maximized.
Josher, contrarian arguments do not add anything to a discussion, so please refrain from them and try adding something useful. Not getting personal, but I cannot think of anything more irritating. Reminds me of when I was on a roleplaying server in which someone chose a name clearly in violation of the policy. I pointed this out and someone replied, "But what if he doesn't like your name?" (Just a silly contrarian response that totally misses the point of complying with the Naming Policy on an RP server.)
WOW dominates because of "polish" and "accessiblity", but, and WOW is now losing subs because of lack of challenge (at least that appears to be so). There are things to take from WOW, certainly. But there are also things to leave behind, and "lack of challenge" is one of them. The gaming community that was new to MMO's when WOW came out is now veteran and they will demand more challenge and immersion in their gaming; at least most of them will.
Since most people playing WOW have not come close to completing everything it has to offer, lack of a challenge is far from its problem. AGE is the only thing hurting WOW. WOW lacks a challenging while LEVELING UP soloing on greens, but there is plenty of challenge if you choose to do it. Its not even debatable. Its a fact. WIthout an armory profile proving you've completed the hardest dungeons, ranked top in the arenas and completed the tougher achievements, don't talk about lack of challenge.
Leveling up in Eve is NOT a challenge. You don't even have to be at the keyboard. You barely have to log in. Playing EVE can be a complete cake walk, even though a challenge is right there if you want it. Same with WOW. You can play on easy mode or you can challenge yourself. This isn't opinion. Its fact.
And last time I checked WOW was in the top 5 best selling PC games for Oct, so obviously people still aren't tired of it;) After 5 years and millions of players, what do you expect anyway? People are going to get bored. I did. Everyone does. If you think EVERYTHING in WOW is easy, good for you. Show us your armory and prove it.
Most folks are enjoying WOW still, so maybe that is the center point after all=) That scale of yours has been proven for about 5 years now. By the way, you can remove your extreme levels of difficulty right out of the equation. They shouldn't even be on the bell curve. Level of difficulty is bascially WOW circa 2004 and WAR. 15 minute penalties or none at all. You won't be finding any popular MMOs most people will like, punishing people any harder than WOW used to. Remember MMORPG.com is NOT, I repeat NOT, most people. Its not even some people;) Its more like, hardly any people;)
6 pages later, this is not entirely true. Before WoW, the entire MMORPG genre was considered to cater to hardcore players due to the large time investment and dedication required for success.
It wasn't until WoW was released that the genre started becoming more accepted among mainstream video game players.
It wasn't until WoW that developers realized they had been wasting their time making games for a niche audience when there were millions of people and potentially millions of dollars to be made making games for the general population. That's how *ALL* things are, making anything for a niche audience just isn't as financially profitable as making it for a large one.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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Wasn't that Vanguards claim to fame? A game built by leet nerds for leet nerds.
Here is why a game like this will never be made. The hardcore pve crowd is a niche market. Nothing wrong with that but it is. So a developer could not spend millions of dollars developing a very large game unless the hardcore crowd would be willing to pay a couple hundred dollars per box plus more the likely a larger monthly fee. Then the problem becomes the hardcore pve crowd rips thru content like it is going out of style so in a months time everyone would be crying and moaning that there is no new content.
It would be physically impossible to keep the hardcore pve crowd happy unless you all would be willing to pay thru the nose to have a large staff pumping out weekly content.
I would pay 50+ bucks a month for an "eq" style game with top end graphics. This price would drive away most of the kids and adults who in my opinion are ruining the genre anyways. I would then pay even more a month to have monthly cohesive and well developed content. In fact, I would go so far as paying 100 bucks a month for this type of gameplay and i would still be getting my moneys worth compare to other entertainment industries.Hell just the fact that it would drive away 99% of the kids and pot smoking, crack addled babies as well as the casual would be enough reason for me to pay for it.
And i bet i am not the only one. So here you go devs. Build us the game. We will pay for it.
Again? Must we discuss this every day anew? Maybe we open a forum for "back to UO gaming" debates?
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
No. THIS is part of the new gamer's mentality (not for everyone, but for some). A HARDCORE PvE game would have content that was IMPOSSIBLE to "rip thru" in a month.
"Hardcore PvE" does not mean "PvE that I can pour all of my time and effort into and race to 'end game' (who the fuck created that damn 'end game' idea...it's idiotic)." WoW is not "hardcore" PvE. There are people that play "hardcore." That doesn't mean that the CONTENT is hardcore.
The OP is talking about the content being hardcore. Trust me....what he's saying (or at least what I'm understanding him to say) , is NOT content anyone could "rip thru."
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I would pay 50+ bucks a month for an "eq" style game with top end graphics. This price would drive away most of the kids and adults who in my opinion are ruining the genre anyways. I would then pay even more a month to have monthly cohesive and well developed content. In fact, I would go so far as paying 100 bucks a month for this type of gameplay and i would still be getting my moneys worth compare to other entertainment industries.Hell just the fact that it would drive away 99% of the kids and pot smoking, crack addled babies as well as the casual would be enough reason for me to pay for it.
And i bet i am not the only one. So here you go devs. Build us the game. We will pay for it.
Well now all you need to do is organize a couple hundred thousand like minded people, get everyone to agree on definition of hardcore pve. Have everyone agree to pre-order and pay for a box that will cost a couple hundred dollars no refunds and sign a minimum of a 2 year contract for $50 dollars a month.
And then after all that you can walk on some water and maybe turn some into wine.
idk, but i think the real truth is, most people don't feel like killing crappy ai mindlessly when they could be doing that in a single player game with much better AI
With all due respect, this is of course baloney, as evidenced by MMORPG.COM's own poll, which shows that 3 times the number of people are interested in PVE as are interested in PVP.
Of course the same poll also shows that far more players are interested in mostly PVE with a little bit of PVP. But it's time the pro-PVP fringe minority stops hyperventilating about how so many people want PVP, as it's simply not true.
No. THIS is part of the new gamer's mentality (not for everyone, but for some). A HARDCORE PvE game would have content that was IMPOSSIBLE to "rip thru" in a month.
"Hardcore PvE" does not mean "PvE that I can pour all of my time and effort into and race to 'end game' (who the fuck created that damn 'end game' idea...it's idiotic)." WoW is not "hardcore" PvE. There are people that play "hardcore." That doesn't mean that the CONTENT is hardcore.
The OP is talking about the content being hardcore. Trust me....what he's saying (or at least what I'm understanding him to say) , is NOT content anyone could "rip thru."
And you don't think there are those extreme nut bags that would make it their mission to rip thru it in a month? Wasn't there people in old EQ that maxed character pretty quickly? If there wasn't then I'm sure there would be now. The great dork off. How many idiots would kill over for gaming to much?
I'd go with 'sort of' as my vote to the OP.
Massive harsh would drive players away, which would hurt the over all game in the end. But I also think having the same sub-level MOB's, standing in the exact same place, time after time after time again also hurts.
What I'd like to see: More games using LotRO skirmish concept for MOB's; the make up isn't always the same, they come from different spots and Boss's spawn randomly with them. All 3 items to keep you on your toes and ensure the experience doesn't get stale.
I also think if you're just standing there farming MOB's, after the X time it's killed in X seconds, the AI should kick in and start uping the MOB's level and/or tossing bosses into the fight. And keep at it until it maxes out it's level number or it wins the fight.
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter
'Hardcore' anything is a niche market.
To be the most successfull in the world will need to have content that is hardcore PvE, hardcore PvP, hardcore raid, hardcore solo and everything in between. And it's then going to have to stick to its guns and not water any of that content when people piss and moan that they can't experience X, Y or Z content.
No. THIS is part of the new gamer's mentality (not for everyone, but for some). A HARDCORE PvE game would have content that was IMPOSSIBLE to "rip thru" in a month.
"Hardcore PvE" does not mean "PvE that I can pour all of my time and effort into and race to 'end game' (who the fuck created that damn 'end game' idea...it's idiotic)." WoW is not "hardcore" PvE. There are people that play "hardcore." That doesn't mean that the CONTENT is hardcore.
The OP is talking about the content being hardcore. Trust me....what he's saying (or at least what I'm understanding him to say) , is NOT content anyone could "rip thru."
And you don't think there are those extreme nut bags that would make it their mission to rip thru it in a month? Wasn't there people in old EQ that maxed character pretty quickly? If there wasn't then I'm sure there would be now. The great dork off. How many idiots would kill over for gaming to much?
Of course there are those "extreme nutbags" that would try to rip thru it in a month. But there are "extreme nutbags" (I LOVE that terminology, by the way...lol) that think FreeRealms is a fun and challenging game too, or that think Darkfall is the end all be all of MMOs, or that think EVE is the salvation of the gaming universe. The gaming populace is a very very diverse bunch of people with different play styles, likes, dislikes, amount of time they can afford to spend, amount of mental effort they are either capable of, or willing to, expend on a game, etc., etc., ad infinitum. It is also rife with "extreme nutbags" of every type. But you can't consider that super small minority of "nutbagists" when designing a game. All games will have a "nutbag ratio" of some sort.
So I suppose what I meant to say is....that the vast majority of gamers would not be able to "rip thru" what the OP is referring to as "hardcore PvE."
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Speaking as one of those hardcore PvErs from 8 or 9 years ago...I think it might be time you grew up and realized there is more to life than MMOs. The vast majority of us who played hardcore in the old EQ days have since realized how much of our life we actually lost in doing so. Oh, don't get me wrong, we have some good memories...but we don't want to go back there.
Now...maybe you weren't hardcore back then, and maybe you do have a life (and did) and don't really know what hardcore means. So let me explain to you what hardcore PvE was:
-FCFS World mobs, where guilds were literally fighting to see which side could out DPS the other in hopes of getting credit for the kill.
-Vacations spent camping epic spawns, rather than spending time with ones family.
-Phone calls at 3 AM on a worknight telling you to get your ass online and help take down a mob someone in your guild needed for their epic.
-Getting IMd at work and told you need to leave early to help take down a mob.
-CRing from Plane of Fear at 5 AM, so your corpse doesn't rot, and not actually getting any sleep at all before going to work.
-Losing a level trying to break an encounter and no longer being able to actually zone in to recover your corpse...then having to grind back that level in less than 24 hours so you could go get your gear.
Sound familiar?
If not, you weren't hardcore and shouldn't be talking about things you don't understand. If so, then you already agree with me when I say, "No thank you" to the return of hardcore PvE.
Finally someone with a brain wrote what true mmorpg's should be......
Fact: Majority of mmorpg gamers are PvErs
Fact: Small minority make up the PvPers
Fact: Out of the PvPers 80% are using scripting programs or other forms of hacks to win in PvP
Fact: Here on mmorpg.com the PvP supporters still make up a small % of the majority
Some of my best times in EQ were times when I had to get help to get my corpse when there were 3 mobs that were way beyond my level around it that could 2 shot me and I could not afford a coffin so a necro could summon me. Those times were amazingly fun. I find it amusing that people are like no that is a terrible idea and it cannot be amusing because it sounds bad but in reality just about everything in EQ was fun pre luclin.
In a way, people already are. Ginkeq has made a posting career out of his lament for the old days when WoW offered challenge. And he regularly compares that old WoW challenge to EQ's difficulty.
It's hilarious, because in the first couple of years of WoW's release, which he considers the 'hardcore' years, most posts against WoW were declaring it the 'dumbed' down mmo, a trend continuing to this day. But WoW is now old enough to have those who remember the 'good ol' days' and have forgotten the negative posts against it in the early years. Just as many lament the 'good ol' days' of EQ, without remembering the negatives which drove people from that game to WoW and EQ2, never to return.
Historic perspective can be interesting.
I am not sure it was the negatives that drove people away from EQ. I think it was the fact that all at once these new experiences came out and why not try something new? So people try something new and get hooked by it and then never go back to a game that has crappy graphics by todays or even in 2004s standards. For instance I would love to play EQ pre Luclin but that does not exist and the graphics will be so painful to look at all day it will be even harder. I would love to make a barbarian and go kill me some wholly mammoths and stand in awe at the guys killing ice giants again. EQ with updated graphics and a reset on some of the mechanics they added would be great and I think would attract a lot of people but the graphics are sooo outdated and the game has changed SOO much that I am not sure it is worth it to play EQ again in its current form.
Well now all you need to do is organize a couple hundred thousand like minded people, get everyone to agree on definition of hardcore pve. Have everyone agree to pre-order and pay for a box that will cost a couple hundred dollars no refunds and sign a minimum of a 2 year contract for $50 dollars a month.
And then after all that you can walk on some water and maybe turn some into wine.
You make it seem like this isnt possible. Theres going to come a day that the mmo market is all broken up into niche markets since, as been pointed out, theres such a diverse player base. I dont want to pay more money just to "feel" elite or "hardcore". I would pay more money to get a game that is more to my preference and combining the cost and the gameplay would in my opinion gve me a better community to have to deal with.
I dont want to play Candyland or Checkers (WoW). I want to play Trivia Pursuit or Chess (EQ style).
Well now all you need to do is organize a couple hundred thousand like minded people, get everyone to agree on definition of hardcore pve. Have everyone agree to pre-order and pay for a box that will cost a couple hundred dollars no refunds and sign a minimum of a 2 year contract for $50 dollars a month.
And then after all that you can walk on some water and maybe turn some into wine.
You make it seem like this isnt possible.
You make it seem like until you actually try and find out for yourself, you're still going to believe it is possible.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Well now all you need to do is organize a couple hundred thousand like minded people, get everyone to agree on definition of hardcore pve. Have everyone agree to pre-order and pay for a box that will cost a couple hundred dollars no refunds and sign a minimum of a 2 year contract for $50 dollars a month.
And then after all that you can walk on some water and maybe turn some into wine.
You make it seem like this isnt possible.
You make it seem like until you actually try and find out for yourself, you're still going to believe it is possible.
I would do it as well.
You make it it is possible.
See? I can quote just the parts i want to make my point also. Next time quote the whole thing rather than bits and pieces to make your point.
[edited for rediculous length- sorry guys, I didn't preview it]
I think the word "hardcore" in this argument is pretty ambiguous at this point, some people meaning "extremely difficult" (I imagine something like Demon's Souls Online, if there were such a thing), and some meaning something along the lines of "intense and compelling" (which if also "challenging yet rewarding" could translate to "a lot of fun for most people") If we are simply arguing for or against the OP's view (which I thought was the purpose of this thread), it is important to look at how games have addressed PvE in the past, and what seems to work best for the most people. I would argue that there is a larger market for my second definition, but a very limited one (at least in the western world) for the first.
To summarize, to me a heavy PvP game with minimal PvE feels to be lacking in content, but a fully fleshed-out and compelling PvE experience with the added spice of balanced PvP gameplay feels like a complete game, and would likely jive with a large player base.
There should be a word limit on a user's first post.
The more hardcore a game gets, the less subs it will retain after the initial launch. Everyone loves to brag about how hardcore they are but very very few love to play a hardcore game.
Life of an MMORPG "addict"
For 7 years, proving that if you quote "fuck" you won't get banned.
Expirience penalties are stupid. They where stupid in EQ, they are stupid now. Noone with a life would EVER want such a thing, because if you have a life, your time is worth something, and you only have so much recreational time, having several hours of it negated is not fun, or exciting, or challenging, it's just frustrating , designing a game with feature meant simply to frustrate is ridiculous.
I don't mind if it take a long time to get somewhere, or if it's very challenging, but let keep what I've accomplished. I always felt like my subscription fee was being stolen when I lost a level, and in the EQ days I didn't have a life (hence I put up with it, though I shouldn't have) I would never stick around for a game that does this in this day and age, as most people wouldn't, hence it isn't done anymore. Let me rephrase that: Like most thing you so called "Hardcore" players (who are everything but) whine about IF IT WAS A GOOD IDEA GAMES WOULD STILL BE DOING IT!!!!
That's what kills me. It's not like you morons ever preach about something new, that game developers are afraid to try... no your preaching about old, been there done that, got the tee shirt (literally) features that had their chance, didn't work out, and fell by the wayside.
Oh, and for my final flame bait: WoW is not easier just because leveling does not entail waiting 15 minutes for the runner to pull another bear into the camp for 1/20th a % of a level!
Anyone play Shenmue? Remeber when you got a job moving crates? Was it hard? Hell no. But by the standards of so called "Hardcore" players, it doesn't get anymore "Hardcore" than that.
Active: WoW
Semi-retired: STO
Fully retired: UO, EQ, AC, SWG, FFXI, DDO:EU, PoTBS, AoC, EvE
Tried: EQ2, Tabula Rasa, Auto-Assault, Isteria, LotRO, Wizard 101
Looking forward to: Star Citizen
You, sir, just made my day! Best thing I've read in weeks.
HARDCORE!
But, really, everyone has their own definition of what "hardcore PvE" should be. So how does one try to apply to all those different tastes?
TGWTETIPTNMAITC! -Gary Whitta