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Do hardcore gamers ruin the game for themselves?

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  • Vaske1984Vaske1984 Member Posts: 228
    Originally posted by Scottc

    Originally posted by otter3370


    I've noticed that hardcore gamers tend to be the most passionate about mmorpgs, which of course is what makes them consider themselves hardcore.  They study everything about a particular game, download maps, analyze strategies, and buy multiple accounts.   They want to be the first to accomplish something ingame.  They can give you percentages of ratios in regards to how one piece of armor affects the dps, str, wis, int, whatever of another piece of equipment.  Most of the time I don't know what they are talking about. 
    When I play an mmorpg, I just want to know what's on the other side of that hill.  I want to have a story with somekind of thought put into it.  I want to be able to work with other people to save a kingdom, or defeat the dragon, monster, ultimate evil, whatever.
    For me, it's about being part of a community of people that "live" and work  together in this virtual world and immmersing yourself in said world.  It's like being an active participant in a good book.
    For some hardcore gamers, it becomes less about the adventure and wander of a new world to explore, than a breakdown and study of the mmorpgs game mechanics.  They want to be the first and only ones to beat that dragon.  It's less about being part of a community than being number one.  In doing that, they study the game so much in order to dominate other gamers that any real joy they get isn't in the game itself but in "pwnin nubs".  Pretty soon, that gets boring.  They bash the game and move on to the next upcoming game with all the zeal and passion they heaped into the first one.
    It reminds me of the classic Leroy Jenkins clip.  They're all planning the raid, doing "number crunches" and sounding bored as hell, when Leroy just runs in, trains everything and gets everyone killed.  He was the only one that was trying to have fun.  They sounded like bored office workers discussing paper clips.
     



    Hardcore gamers are not only a plague of MMORPGs, but also a plague of FPS, RTS, etc, name any genre and you have hardcore gamers who pretty much ruin it for everyone.  The problem is the only thing they care about is winning, winning is everything to them.  I'm pretty sure most hardcore gamers have a self esteem problem of some sort.  In shooters they're the guys who play for 10 hours a day and get so good that they absolutely wreck anyone 90% of the time, a lot of people think they're hackers, and eventually these sort of people take over the community and it becomes very insular, because people want to have fun but they can't when they get wrecked the moment they respawn, so they stop playing the game.  What's left is the "competitive" hardcore assholes.

     

    -Thats 100% true, i myself am a hard core player....and indeed i ruin the fun in game for myself because i expect from game to entertain me for 10 hours per day and game like that does not exist <_, so i end up bitching about how game is crap, in fps everyone is crying how i hack and its kinda boring since i can hs player without even trying, so yeah in the end hard core players ruin the game for everyone.

    image

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by Xziled



     

    The main problem with Hardcore gamers is that we tend to blow through content on a very fast pace and are left scratching our heads wondering what to do next.

     

    Often players like this tend to figure the thing to do next is turn to the developers with rage. Blaming them for the fact they are left there scratching their head. Sure both playstyles are fine, however at times certain players expect every game that comes along to have as much content as EQ and its multitude of expansions. They tend to forget the time in which it takes to create this content and everything else inside the game, patience is something they tend to not have.

    Differences between people are perfectly understandable and expected, rude obnoxious behavior because everything doesn't taste the same is not.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • toddzetoddze Member UncommonPosts: 2,150
    Originally posted by Vaske1984



     

    -Thats 100% true, i myself am a hard core player....and indeed i ruin the fun in game for myself because i expect from game to entertain me for 10 hours per day and game like that does not exist <_, so i end up bitching about how game is crap, in fps everyone is crying how i hack and its kinda boring since i can hs player without even trying, so yeah in the end hard core players ruin the game for everyone.

     

    hahaha good try If you fooled anyone id be shocked. Thats so far from the hardcore mindset.

    Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
    Now Playing: N/A
    Worst MMO: FFXIV
    Favorite MMO: FFXI

  • Vaske1984Vaske1984 Member Posts: 228
    Originally posted by Xziled

    Originally posted by Scottc




    Hardcore gamers are not only a plague of MMORPGs, but also a plague of FPS, RTS, etc, name any genre and you have hardcore gamers who pretty much ruin it for everyone.  The problem is the only thing they care about is winning, winning is everything to them.  I'm pretty sure most hardcore gamers have a self esteem problem of some sort.  In shooters they're the guys who play for 10 hours a day and get so good that they absolutely wreck anyone 90% of the time, a lot of people think they're hackers, and eventually these sort of people take over the community and it becomes very insular, because people want to have fun but they can't when they get wrecked the moment they respawn, so they stop playing the game.  What's left is the "competitive" hardcore assholes.




     

    I found this statement moronic. You hate the hardcore players because you dont have the skill, ability or drive to  compete with them.

    Go ahead and say, its because they have no lives... blah blah blah.. i know thats whats next..

    -Ok so it's not every day that i defend casual player as i am one of the hard core players, but what did you expect? we have "skills" because we indeed have no life and spend 10+ hours per day playing, unless you play at day time and live your aka life at night and never sleep?

     

    image

  • ScottcScottc Member Posts: 680
    Originally posted by Xziled

    Originally posted by Scottc




    Hardcore gamers are not only a plague of MMORPGs, but also a plague of FPS, RTS, etc, name any genre and you have hardcore gamers who pretty much ruin it for everyone.  The problem is the only thing they care about is winning, winning is everything to them.  I'm pretty sure most hardcore gamers have a self esteem problem of some sort.  In shooters they're the guys who play for 10 hours a day and get so good that they absolutely wreck anyone 90% of the time, a lot of people think they're hackers, and eventually these sort of people take over the community and it becomes very insular, because people want to have fun but they can't when they get wrecked the moment they respawn, so they stop playing the game.  What's left is the "competitive" hardcore assholes.




     

    I found this statement moronic. You hate the hardcore players because you dont have the skill, ability or drive to  compete with them.

    Go ahead and say, its because they have no lives... blah blah blah.. i know thats whats next..

    Where did I ever say I don't have skill?  I've been gaming for around 15 years, and while my first games were mostly 2D DOS games I played Quake quite early on and I was hooked on the FPS genre from that point on.  I am pretty good, I'm not the best, I can definitely play against competitive gamers, but in a game like Left 4 Dead for example, it annoys me a bit when they'll do anything to win no matter how cheap it is (such as closet camping or corner camping) as often as they can.  I keep playing though, it saddens me when the supply of gamers with less persistance than myself quit, because I often have more fun with them since it tends to be an even match.

    And if you think I'm wrong, go look at CS.  The entire community at this point consists of players who very closely resemble aimbots.  There's no way a newcomer is going to get into it.  L4D was the same just before L4D2 came out, although I think most of the players left were actually hackers.

  • Vaske1984Vaske1984 Member Posts: 228
    Originally posted by toddze

    Originally posted by Vaske1984



     

    -Thats 100% true, i myself am a hard core player....and indeed i ruin the fun in game for myself because i expect from game to entertain me for 10 hours per day and game like that does not exist <_, so i end up bitching about how game is crap, in fps everyone is crying how i hack and its kinda boring since i can hs player without even trying, so yeah in the end hard core players ruin the game for everyone.

     

    hahaha good try If you fooled anyone id be shocked. Thats so far from the hardcore mindset.

    -You just live in denial my friend....at least im honest.

    image

  • pojungpojung Member Posts: 810
    Originally posted by otter3370


    It reminds me of the classic Leroy Jenkins clip.  They're all planning the raid, doing "number crunches" and sounding bored as hell, when Leroy just runs in, trains everything and gets everyone killed.  He was the only one that was trying to have fun.  They sounded like bored office workers discussing paper clips.



     

    I think this paragraph exposes your bias. Number crunching certainly appeals to certain personality types according to Myers-Briggs. Someone who 'doesn't care' and is 'reckless' is not having any more 'fun' than the next guy.

    Also, 'hardcore' is a term that is all to often applied to statistical contexts. People who number crunch, stat-fiends, mechanics mongrels... Cannot someone be hardcore about roleplaying? Cannot someone be hardcore about crafting? You touched on the keyword but then glaze over the context: passionate. Do people who are passionate about something, ruin that said thing for themselves?

    Yes and no? Do stars burn brighter the bigger they are (and by being bigger, die sooner)? So, because duration is lessened, experience and 'fun' is as well? I'm not sure they correlate, but when they do, then sure.

     

    I do feel we have much to learn from every camp in the great Nth dimensioned matrix that is gaming (or life). Develop content that stands up to a hardcore's scrutiny, but is enjoyable and accessible to a casual. Lay foundations that appeal to the individual, and play well in a group. Each angle has its insights, concerns, and truths.

    That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
    We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
    So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
    - MMO_Doubter

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,852
    Originally posted by Xziled

    Originally posted by Scottc




    Hardcore gamers are not only a plague of MMORPGs, but also a plague of FPS, RTS, etc, name any genre and you have hardcore gamers who pretty much ruin it for everyone.  The problem is the only thing they care about is winning, winning is everything to them.  I'm pretty sure most hardcore gamers have a self esteem problem of some sort.  In shooters they're the guys who play for 10 hours a day and get so good that they absolutely wreck anyone 90% of the time, a lot of people think they're hackers, and eventually these sort of people take over the community and it becomes very insular, because people want to have fun but they can't when they get wrecked the moment they respawn, so they stop playing the game.  What's left is the "competitive" hardcore assholes.




     

    I found this statement moronic. You hate the hardcore players because you dont have the skill, ability or drive to  compete with them.

    Go ahead and say, its because they have no lives... blah blah blah.. i know thats whats next..

    The thing is, it's true. Hardcore gamers burn through the content and then expect new content tailored for them. Everyone else gets left behind, and then they start quitting.

    Once upon a time....

  • toddzetoddze Member UncommonPosts: 2,150
    Originally posted by Vaske1984

    Originally posted by toddze

    Originally posted by Vaske1984



     

    -Thats 100% true, i myself am a hard core player....and indeed i ruin the fun in game for myself because i expect from game to entertain me for 10 hours per day and game like that does not exist <_, so i end up bitching about how game is crap, in fps everyone is crying how i hack and its kinda boring since i can hs player without even trying, so yeah in the end hard core players ruin the game for everyone.

     

    hahaha good try If you fooled anyone id be shocked. Thats so far from the hardcore mindset.

    -You just live in denial my friend....at least im honest.

     

    RP'ing on a forum is not honesty.

    Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
    Now Playing: N/A
    Worst MMO: FFXIV
    Favorite MMO: FFXI

  • Vaske1984Vaske1984 Member Posts: 228
    Originally posted by toddze

    Originally posted by Vaske1984

    Originally posted by toddze

    Originally posted by Vaske1984



     

    -Thats 100% true, i myself am a hard core player....and indeed i ruin the fun in game for myself because i expect from game to entertain me for 10 hours per day and game like that does not exist <_, so i end up bitching about how game is crap, in fps everyone is crying how i hack and its kinda boring since i can hs player without even trying, so yeah in the end hard core players ruin the game for everyone.

     

    hahaha good try If you fooled anyone id be shocked. Thats so far from the hardcore mindset.

    -You just live in denial my friend....at least im honest.

     

    RP'ing on a forum is not honesty.

     

    -W/E dude your living in denial <_<

    image

  • ScottcScottc Member Posts: 680
    Originally posted by Amaranthar

    Originally posted by Xziled

    Originally posted by Scottc




    Hardcore gamers are not only a plague of MMORPGs, but also a plague of FPS, RTS, etc, name any genre and you have hardcore gamers who pretty much ruin it for everyone.  The problem is the only thing they care about is winning, winning is everything to them.  I'm pretty sure most hardcore gamers have a self esteem problem of some sort.  In shooters they're the guys who play for 10 hours a day and get so good that they absolutely wreck anyone 90% of the time, a lot of people think they're hackers, and eventually these sort of people take over the community and it becomes very insular, because people want to have fun but they can't when they get wrecked the moment they respawn, so they stop playing the game.  What's left is the "competitive" hardcore assholes.




     

    I found this statement moronic. You hate the hardcore players because you dont have the skill, ability or drive to  compete with them.

    Go ahead and say, its because they have no lives... blah blah blah.. i know thats whats next..

    The thing is, it's true. Hardcore gamers burn through the content and then expect new content tailored for them. Everyone else gets left behind, and then they start quitting.

    This is actually what creates grind in MMORPGs.  Hardcore gamers have progressed so far that they gain items and other shit (like higher level) that give them the ability to wtfstomp most players in the game.  It's bad if a game was designed to have a long character progression, because as people get wtfstomped not because of player skill but because the equipment and high levels/skills of the hardcore players, they too begin to powergame their way to a level where they can compete with hardcore gamer, because most of the players have done what they can to catch up to these hardcore individuals and it leaves new players with a huge grind to catch up.  People are forced to do boring repetitive things and spend a lot of time playing to catch up.

  • EthianEthian Member Posts: 1,216
    Originally posted by otter3370


    I've noticed that hardcore gamers tend to be the most passionate about mmorpgs, which of course is what makes them consider themselves hardcore.  They study everything about a particular game, download maps, analyze strategies, and buy multiple accounts.   They want to be the first to accomplish something ingame.  They can give you percentages of ratios in regards to how one piece of armor affects the dps, str, wis, int, whatever of another piece of equipment.  Most of the time I don't know what they are talking about. 
    When I play an mmorpg, I just want to know what's on the other side of that hill.  I want to have a story with somekind of thought put into it.  I want to be able to work with other people to save a kingdom, or defeat the dragon, monster, ultimate evil, whatever.
    For me, it's about being part of a community of people that "live" and work  together in this virtual world and immmersing yourself in said world.  It's like being an active participant in a good book.
    For some hardcore gamers, it becomes less about the adventure and wander of a new world to explore, than a breakdown and study of the mmorpgs game mechanics.  They want to be the first and only ones to beat that dragon.  It's less about being part of a community than being number one.  In doing that, they study the game so much in order to dominate other gamers that any real joy they get isn't in the game itself but in "pwnin nubs".  Pretty soon, that gets boring.  They bash the game and move on to the next upcoming game with all the zeal and passion they heaped into the first one.
    It reminds me of the classic Leroy Jenkins clip.  They're all planning the raid, doing "number crunches" and sounding bored as hell, when Leroy just runs in, trains everything and gets everyone killed.  He was the only one that was trying to have fun.  They sounded like bored office workers discussing paper clips.
     



     

    Hell ya they do! Aion is a perfect example. Plenty of folks rushed to max level and /quit when they get bored of end-game...when the majority of people playing Aion arn't even ready for end-game.

     

    I personally think that theres a large amount of gamers that play MMOs who are bored sick of the genre yet continue to play MMOs because they just can't let them go. This site in particular is full of folks who play or played way too many MMOs so their expectations are way too high. They end up dissapointed with new MMOs so the whine and biatch trying to ruin it for others to make themselves feel better for not finding their "perfect" MMO.

     

    I guess eventually these folks will get outside more and finally spend some quality time with their friends and family. Until then we gotta deal with them both ingame and on sites this...sucks huh? lol

    "I play Tera for the gameplay"

  • Avarice is what destroys games for the "hardcore" not passion or over-analysis.  They play like a plague of locusts.

  • 0tter0tter Member UncommonPosts: 226
    Originally posted by Xziled

    Originally posted by otter3370


     
    I never meant for this to be a casual vs hardcore thread.  I used to consider myself hardcore simply because of the time I invested in an mmorpg.  The hardcore I was talking about are the ones that put more study into a games machanics than the story.  They tend to be the ones that complain a game is too easy or dumbed down because they study it down to its code.
    How about an analogy that doesn't involve fast food or pop stars?  How many people have watched a magician perform a trick and were impressed and in awe of the act?  How did he do that, you wander?  So you research it, find out that he simply had it up his sleeve and were disappointed.  These hardcore gamers want to know who's behind the curtain, or how the trick is done and take all the wander out of it for themselves.



     

    I call BS. If you didnt think this thread was about Casual vs Hardcore, then your an idiot.

    This arguement has been going on since the beginning of MMO Genre. The stupid part about it, is that it doesnt matter one way or the other whos right. Hardcore players enjoy one style, while casual enjoy another... neither is right  or wrong, just different.

    The main problem with Hardcore gamers is that we tend to blow through content on a very fast pace and are left scratching our heads wondering what to do next. The problem with casual gamers is that they see the hardcore gamers with all the cool shit and complain about not being able to get it easily.

     Just my 2 cents..

    oh well...the thread was hijacked.  I wouldn't say I'm an idiot...maybe naive to think this wouldn't happen.  This isn't about hardcore playstyle vs casual playstyle.  My point was that some gamers delve into the machanics of a mmorpg.  They get too caught up in ratios and percentages and it becomes more work than work.  They tend to burn out on a game quickly and get bored because, IMO, they immerse themselves into the wrong part of the game.  There are hardcore gamers that actually care whether they save the kingdom or help defeat whatever.  They are focused on the story and lore of the game the way I think the devs intended.  

     

  • bill4747bill4747 Member Posts: 202

    Yes. Hardcore gamers DO ruin the games for themselves.

    But...how can you blame someone for playing a game the way they enjoy it?

    Just so happens to be difficult for a game design to have unlimited content that is not boring.

     

     

     

    Sure seems that mmorpg's are getting 'easier' over time to me. Are the games being dumbed down? I am pretty sure I am not getting smarter.

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,852
    Originally posted by Ethian



    I guess eventually these folks will get outside more and finally spend some quality time with their friends and family. Until then we gotta deal with them both ingame and on sites this...sucks huh? lol

     

    Uh, and you'll still be in here? heh..teasing, just teasing.

    Once upon a time....

  • LansidLansid Member UncommonPosts: 1,097
    Originally posted by bill4747


    Yes. Hardcore gamers DO ruin the games for themselves.
    But...how can you blame someone for playing a game the way they enjoy it?
    Just so happens to be difficult for a game design to have unlimited content that is not boring.
     
     
     
    Sure seems that mmorpg's are getting 'easier' over time to me. Are the games being dumbed down? I am pretty sure I am not getting smarter.

    You can play a "casual" game a-la hardcore style... the problem is self proclaimed "hardcore players" want everyone else to play hardcore so they can prove they have the bigger e-peen. They don't really give a shit about the challenge moreso than proving they are better than everyone else.

     

    "There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."

  • bill4747bill4747 Member Posts: 202

    I am Sooooooo freakin' HUGE................................... on the internet!

  • ComnitusComnitus Member Posts: 2,462

    In most cases, I think they do... and then they blame the developers. But what else is new?

    image

  • LansidLansid Member UncommonPosts: 1,097
    Originally posted by bill4747


    I am Sooooooo freakin' HUGE................................... on the internet!

    Oh yeah?!?!? Look at my join date... I'm O.G.! And my posts far exceed yours! lawl nubz... L2poast moar

    *woosh woosh* You hear that swingin'? That's right baby... e-peen ftw

    >_<;

     *note: yes I am joking just to be clear

    "There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."

  • Southpaw.GamerSouthpaw.Gamer Member CommonPosts: 572

    I'd say the worst part of hardcore gaming can be seen in games like Darkfall.  For years we were on edge wanting that game, wanting the ultimate pvp experience that was based on skill and not on player stats.  But what happened?  When the game launched the Hardcore did everything they could to ruin the balance of the game, they didn't spend time looking for pvp, they spent time looking for exploits in how to level up faster than the game was suppose to allow. 

     

    Darkfall is a great concept and game, yes it has faults... but those faults were exploited by the community.  At the core Darkfall represented everything I wanted in an MMO, yet the community of that game completely trashed the way the game was suppose to be.

    Full Sail University - Game Design

  • kzaskekzaske Member UncommonPosts: 518

    On of the problems with the way this thread is going is how the OP defines a Hardcore player. There are gamers that will blow through content at a ridiculous pace often “finishing” an MMO expansion over the first weekend. Are they hardcore? As I see it, no.

    To me a hard core player is one that studies aspects of the game. Most of them want to master one or more aspect of the game in question. These are the players that want to know what is going on behind the scenes. To me these are the hardcore players. Most of these players will do the same quest over and over again changing a weapon or a single piece of armor and make notes about as many aspects as they can. Once they master the aspect they are interested in they will normally use that to their advantage, they often will post what they learn on a personal web site or a public blog.

    As I see it, speed gamers want to be able to say they did something first, almost as if being first matters.

    Hardcore gamers don’t really care about being the first one to do something. They are the ones that dig in and understand how the game works. Sure they may fail a mission or whatever once or twice. But once they know what they are up against they will never fail that mission or whatever again. Hardcore games will often have specialized equipment or skill sets they use for a specific task.

    Where do I fit? Almost hardcore. I do have specialized sets of armor, skill sets and specialized weapon sets each for different areas of the game in question. I don’t normally repeat the same mission or whatever over and over again unless doing so is required by the game.

    As an aside, the only time I turn on xFire is when I am playing Guild Wars.  For other games I really could not care less.  There is so much to learn about Guild Wars, I am almost done.

  • bill4747bill4747 Member Posts: 202

    I am fairly well rounded; I like pvp games like lineage 2 and I also like pve games like horizons. (ouch....I sound old!)

    But I do not want my 'swordsman' character to have MY reflexes. I want him to be a level 50+ fighter :)

    I am pretty sure my charcaters hit harder than I do also.

     

    I prefer a mix of strategy and twitch as oppossed to all twitch.

     

     

     

  • LansidLansid Member UncommonPosts: 1,097
    Originally posted by Bainwalker


    I'd say the worst part of hardcore gaming can be seen in games like Darkfall.  For years we were on edge wanting that game, wanting the ultimate pvp experience that was based on skill and not on player stats.  But what happened?  When the game launched the Hardcore did everything they could to ruin the balance of the game, they didn't spend time looking for pvp, they spent time looking for exploits in how to level up faster than the game was suppose to allow. 
     
    Darkfall is a great concept and game, yes it has faults... but those faults were exploited by the community.  At the core Darkfall represented everything I wanted in an MMO, yet the community of that game completely trashed the way the game was suppose to be.

    I'd love to give it a test drive... I'd think that even if they opened a "Free trial server" so as the newbs not screw with the p2p server they might pull in a bunch more potentials. I don't mind getting ganked in PvP games, I mind paying for games that don't appeal to my interests in what I want in one.

    "There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."

  • lilbooshylilbooshy Member Posts: 6

    Of course they do.  They overreact to simple things (like when youre killing a monster they targeted even though the field is bloody full of the same thing).  Not only do they ruin it for themselves, they ruin it for others by coming into a newbie spawning area when they're lvl 80.  because killing a level 1 makes them sooooo badass.  Then they get ticked off when you suggest they find a challange.

    glue: its whats for dinner

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