Hardcore gamers are not only a plague of MMORPGs, but also a plague of FPS, RTS, etc, name any genre and you have hardcore gamers who pretty much ruin it for everyone. The problem is the only thing they care about is winning, winning is everything to them. I'm pretty sure most hardcore gamers have a self esteem problem of some sort. In shooters they're the guys who play for 10 hours a day and get so good that they absolutely wreck anyone 90% of the time, a lot of people think they're hackers, and eventually these sort of people take over the community and it becomes very insular, because people want to have fun but they can't when they get wrecked the moment they respawn, so they stop playing the game. What's left is the "competitive" hardcore assholes.
I agree with this statement. The hardcore players think you dont have the skill, ability or drive to compete with them.
Go ahead and say, its because they have no lives... and you're right.. i know thats whats next..
In my experience, casual gamers spend 70% of the time playing and 30% of their time complaining that someone else is better than them/has beaten something before them. IE this post.
Why do you care? Let us play how we want. Aren't you guys the people who get pissed when hardcore gamers gank you or ruin your content?
I'd be willing to bet a lot of the people here you're referring to, were what could be considered "hardcore" players at some point. Due to RL issues and changes in life style a lot of people don't have the time for that any longer. When I played galaxies I was straight up a hardcore player I wouldn't of gotten into FIGHT otherwise (you were in VOD a casual and hardcore guild weren't you?). I know exactly where you're coming from in your opinion of other players who aren't like that. I was accused of hacking left and right in that game. Most in our guild were to some extent simply because we played so much we all had uber gear.
What I am seeing in this thread for the most part are people speaking from experience on the issue. IMO it's only bad when these types of players expect every game to be hardcore and expect every dev to cater to them and theirs.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Have we yet come to agree upon the defintion of a hardcore player?
I'll take a stab at it:
A hardcore gamer is a person who is, or thinks he is, a better or more committed player than people he sees as being inferior or less committed in playing the same game. The general pattern is that a hardcore gamer prioritizes large amounts of personal resources (time, money, effort) toward playing the game, and often times in doing so is perceived as neglecting other areas of his life. Hardcore gamers are proud of their achievements (real or imagined) and tend to hold an elitist self image based upon such achievements. In general, it could be stated that their perception of the game falls more along the lines of a sports event, or possibly even a crisis real life event such as military participation in a war.
In more general terms. If you win and you're damned proud of it moreso than anything else in your life, then you more likely fit as a hardcore gamer. If you lose and you think the guy who beats you has malformed personal priorities and is out of touch with the fact that "its just a game", then you more likely fit in as a casual, or that's how a hardcore would look at it.
That's my take on it, but hey... I'm just a recovering hardcore who can't play like I want to because I work too much.
Ken
www.ActionMMORPG.com One man, a small pile of money, and the screwball idea of a DIY Indie MMORPG? Yep, that's him. ~sigh~
Wouldn't most here be considered a part of the hardcore MMO crowd? Honestly would a casual come to sites like this? Sure maybe you consider yourself casual by your playstyle within a game. However when you're using the rest of your spare time to discuss MMO's in general to me that's basically stepping into the realm of hardcore, second when you're building your own MMO alone I'd say your pretty hardcore :P.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Not so much the ones that race through content as much as the ones that do a breakdown study of a game's mechanics and care nothing about the game's lore. Although those people tend to be the ones that race through content and discover and use exploits.
They're typically the people who break the game too. If anyone discovers that by using a certain piece of armor, coupled with a particular weapon, modified by this sequence of buffs, you can become ridiculously powerful, you can be certain that it was one of the anal-retentive hardcores who would rather maintain a spreadsheet on the minutia of the game than just sit down and play.
You might be hardcore if you ..... -dabble in adult underwear to avoid downtime. -start to catch on fire if you walk into sunlight. -consider mountain dew part of the nutrition pyramid.
Since we're flaming.....
You might be casual if you....
-Had your mom buy you a trophy so you could feel good after finishing last in your grade school spelling bee.
-Have ever bragged about your job and wife to a 12 year old over the internet after they killed you. Good job ace, I'm sure he cares.
Originally posted by Loke666 Originally posted by toddze No the casual MMO's ruins the game for the hardcore players.
You are both wrong.
Hardcore players playing casual games are begging for it, same as the other way around. A game made by and for hardcore players is made to be played that way, it works fine then. But if you try the same with a game for casual players you will get bored soon. There is no right or wrong way to enjoy playing but there are right or wrong game for your play-style. Buying a casual game and then complaining about it is pointless, you are not playing the game as intended. Right now is casual gaming most popular and therefore are most games casual, it was the other way around 10 years ago but things like that goes and comes, but there are still some games that aims at hardcore players. Saying that your play-style is right and someone else's wrong is just ignorant.
Very well said. My thoughts exactly.
There is NO miracle patch.
95% of what you see in beta won't change by launch.
Hope is not a stategy. ______________________________ "This kind of topic is like one of those little cartoon boxes held up by a stick on a string, with a piece of meat under it. In other words, bait."
In some games being "hardcore" is a requirement for the upper tier endgame content.
For example, it is absolutely impossible for a casual player, and in fact for most players to upgrade relics in FFXI. It has taken me 3 years to upgrade Mandau and I don't expect to be finished until the middle of next year.
Few gamers don't ruin it for themselves. If the core of why games are fun is pattern discovery, then when patterns are fully discovered and mastered the game is no longer fun. It "gets old". Every game gets old. Every gamer makes it old, by playing it. Hardcore gamers just demand a sharper incline in the pattern's depth. They accelerate the natural process by focusing on the patterns (therefore discovering/mastering them faster; therefore making them old faster.)
Actually, I think this needs hedged. Every game gets old IF you obsess over it.
Here's a little trick that I learned awhile back. Play about three games at a time. Not simultaneously silly. Just don't focus entirely on one game. It also helps if those three games are in different genres.
Of course, this is a major problem with MMOs in general and the main reason why I don't normally play them. MMORPGs demand all of your time. Unless you are willing to devote 4+ hours a night, every night (8+ hours a night on the weekends), don't bother. This doesn't leave a lot of time for deathmatching on Quake Live or managing your team in Madden or Racing in Forza Motorsport 3 or trying to beat Contra with three lives and no continues or.... or.... Well, you get the picture....
Playing three games simply spreads your time investment out -- it doesn't modify the gameplay hours it takes for any of those individual games to get old. The only thing that might do that is if your memory is poor and you forget some of the gameplay patterns (and rediscover them.)
The only thing that will keep players playing prolonged periods of time is if the game's depth is layered. Grandmaster chess players have long past the point at which pattern discovery came in a rapid series of fun, but they still play because of the enjoyment of mastery and because there are still-deeper patterns to be discovered. This is referred to as Game Depth.
Basically the goal of a game is to unearth new layers of patterns on a regular basis, so the player is always in a simultaneous state of Discovery (of new patterns) and Mastery (of known patterns) to counteract the burnout of Expiration (of old patterns.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Few gamers don't ruin it for themselves. If the core of why games are fun is pattern discovery, then when patterns are fully discovered and mastered the game is no longer fun. It "gets old". Every game gets old. Every gamer makes it old, by playing it. Hardcore gamers just demand a sharper incline in the pattern's depth. They accelerate the natural process by focusing on the patterns (therefore discovering/mastering them faster; therefore making them old faster.)
Actually, I think this needs hedged. Every game gets old IF you obsess over it.
Here's a little trick that I learned awhile back. Play about three games at a time. Not simultaneously silly. Just don't focus entirely on one game. It also helps if those three games are in different genres.
Of course, this is a major problem with MMOs in general and the main reason why I don't normally play them. MMORPGs demand all of your time. Unless you are willing to devote 4+ hours a night, every night (8+ hours a night on the weekends), don't bother. This doesn't leave a lot of time for deathmatching on Quake Live or managing your team in Madden or Racing in Forza Motorsport 3 or trying to beat Contra with three lives and no continues or.... or.... Well, you get the picture....
Playing three games simply spreads your time investment out -- it doesn't modify the gameplay hours it takes for any of those individual games to get old. The only thing that might do that is if your memory is poor and you forget some of the gameplay patterns (and rediscover them.)
The only thing that will keep players playing prolonged periods of time is if the game's depth is layered. Grandmaster chess players have long past the point at which pattern discovery came in a rapid series of fun, but they still play because of the enjoyment of mastery and because there are still-deeper patterns to be discovered. This is referred to as Game Depth.
Basically the goal of a game is to unearth new layers of patterns on a regular basis, so the player is always in a simultaneous state of Discovery (of new patterns) and Mastery (of known patterns) to counteract the burnout of Expiration (of old patterns.)
I see exactly what you're saying, but it rings just a little hollow for me. Or rather, it brings up an even deeper question about design issues. Games like Chess and Go are incredibly deep but they have a bare minimum of rules and elements. You can literally print the rules to either game on a single sheet of paper. Bringing it back to video games, I still play tons of classic arcade games as well as indie and doujin games that are similarly designed. These games also were made with a minimal number of game elements and gameplay so simple that you could just pick them up and play them. Seriously, who would have thought that anyone would still be playing Ninja Gaiden (NES version) and Contra in 2010? And XBox Live is about to add a virtual Arcade feature where you can buy old arcade games, complete with 3D modeled cabinet, or pay 50 cents per play.
And this isn't just confined to board games and arcade games. I dare you pick up Elite, Master of Orion, Angband or M.U.L.E. and not become engrossed. Likewise, these games used little in the way of game elements and some even used procedurally generated content. Yet, they were infinitly replayable.
MMORPGs seem to go in a different direction and I think it somehow undermines the replayability. Rather than keeping a small number of elements that can be mixed and matched in infinitely useful combinations, they just pile tons of very specific crap on top of a sub par combat system and then constantly nerf and patch. Even with the encylopedic amount of items, spells and monsters, the fact that it all boils down to a handful of stats and canned strategies just destroys the long term gameplay possibilities. Even in something as old as Chess, there is room for the player to inovate. I don't think you can say that about any MMORPG on the market today.
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe I see exactly what you're saying, but it rings just a little hollow for me. Or rather, it brings up an even deeper question about design issues. Games like Chess and Go are incredibly deep but they have a bare minimum of rules and elements. You can literally print the rules to either game on a single sheet of paper. Bringing it back to video games, I still play tons of classic arcade games as well as indie and doujin games that are similarly designed. These games also were made with a minimal number of game elements and gameplay so simple that you could just pick them up and play them. Seriously, who would have thought that anyone would still be playing Ninja Gaiden (NES version) and Contra in 2010? And XBox Live is about to add a virtual Arcade feature where you can buy old arcade games, complete with 3D modeled cabinet, or pay 50 cents per play. And this isn't just confined to board games and arcade games. I dare you pick up Elite, Master of Orion, Angband or M.U.L.E. and not become engrossed. Likewise, these games used little in the way of game elements and some even used procedurally generated content. Yet, they were infinitly replayable. MMORPGs seem to go in a different direction and I think it somehow undermines the replayability. Rather than keeping a small number of elements that can be mixed and matched in infinitely useful combinations, they just pile tons of very specific crap on top of a sub par combat system and then constantly nerf and patch. Even with the encylopedic amount of items, spells and monsters, the fact that it all boils down to a handful of stats and canned strategies just destroys the long term gameplay possibilities. Even in something as old as Chess, there is room for the player to inovate. I don't think you can say that about any MMORPG on the market today.
Heh, yeah that's the way good design works. As the quote goes,"Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is not left to take away." (Antoine de Saint-Exupery)
Sadly few MMORPGs pursue this goal (even games like WOW, where this philosophy rears its head a bit, are bogged down in complexity in the end.) Sadder still are the subset of gamers who decry game accessibility as if it's somehow bad that a game can be easily learned, as Chess is. It's not only a positive trait, but one of the keys to a great game.
I disagree with your (possible) insinuation that the nerf/buff balancing process is bad for a game. Balancing is critical so that a game offers mutliple viable strategies. Poor balancing hurts a game, sure, but good balancing patches can take a rather shallow game (early Starcraft) and turn it into a Chess (current Starcraft).
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You might be hardcore if you ..... -dabble in adult underwear to avoid downtime. -start to catch on fire if you walk into sunlight. -consider mountain dew part of the nutrition pyramid.
Since we're flaming.....
You might be casual if you....
-Had your mom buy you a trophy so you could feel good after finishing last in your grade school spelling bee.
-Have ever bragged about your job and wife to a 12 year old over the internet after they killed you. Good job ace, I'm sure he cares.
I bow to your awesomeness, sir.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I've noticed that hardcore gamers tend to be the most passionate about mmorpgs, which of course is what makes them consider themselves hardcore. They study everything about a particular game, download maps, analyze strategies, and buy multiple accounts. They want to be the first to accomplish something ingame. They can give you percentages of ratios in regards to how one piece of armor affects the dps, str, wis, int, whatever of another piece of equipment. Most of the time I don't know what they are talking about. When I play an mmorpg, I just want to know what's on the other side of that hill. I want to have a story with somekind of thought put into it. I want to be able to work with other people to save a kingdom, or defeat the dragon, monster, ultimate evil, whatever. For me, it's about being part of a community of people that "live" and work together in this virtual world and immmersing yourself in said world. It's like being an active participant in a good book. For some hardcore gamers, it becomes less about the adventure and wander of a new world to explore, than a breakdown and study of the mmorpgs game mechanics. They want to be the first and only ones to beat that dragon. It's less about being part of a community than being number one. In doing that, they study the game so much in order to dominate other gamers that any real joy they get isn't in the game itself but in "pwnin nubs". Pretty soon, that gets boring. They bash the game and move on to the next upcoming game with all the zeal and passion they heaped into the first one. It reminds me of the classic Leroy Jenkins clip. They're all planning the raid, doing "number crunches" and sounding bored as hell, when Leroy just runs in, trains everything and gets everyone killed. He was the only one that was trying to have fun. They sounded like bored office workers discussing paper clips.
Do casual gamers ruin the game for themselves?
There are people who want everything to be soloable and achievable no matter how good or bad they are. In effect, they ask for godmode, but a game with godmode turned on becomes very boring indeed. When the game has been made casual, they complain there is no challenge left.
The problem with your post is that you mistake hardcore for gear orientated AND also have a rather self-centered view of the universe. YOU think Leroy is the only one having fun. Who are you to say what someone else finds fun? Maybe the rest of the group enjoyed the planning, executing it and seeing it succeed. Not everyone is satisfied with just hack&slashing their way through everything.
What is ruining MMO's is that we, customers and developers are unable to accept that not all games are for everybody. It would be like trying to merge Deus Ex, CounterStrike, Duke Nukem and Arma2 into one game and then expect it to be any good.
Some players want large complex battles that take as long to plan as to fight. Other want a hack&slash. Itis foolish to try to satisfy both in the same game.
You might be hardcore if you ..... -dabble in adult underwear to avoid downtime. -start to catch on fire if you walk into sunlight. -consider mountain dew part of the nutrition pyramid.
Since we're flaming.....
You might be casual if you....
-Had your mom buy you a trophy so you could feel good after finishing last in your grade school spelling bee.
-Have ever bragged about your job and wife to a 12 year old over the internet after they killed you. Good job ace, I'm sure he cares.
Woah! I wasn't flaming, i was attempting to make a funny !!
and i get killed all the time in cod4. Probably by 12 year olds. and i don't have a wife........./wrists
What is ruining MMO's is that we, customers and developers are unable to accept that not all games are for everybody. It would be like trying to merge Deus Ex, CounterStrike, Duke Nukem and Arma2 into one game and then expect it to be any good. Some players want large complex battles that take as long to plan as to fight. Other want a hack&slash. Itis foolish to try to satisfy both in the same game.
You are absolutely right here, you cannot satisfy everyone in any single game, but that doesn't automatically mean that everyone deserves to be satisfied in any particular genre either. It's like asking to combine a FPS and Pokemon. Gotta shoot 'em all. Nintendo just isn't going to make that game no matter how much you might want them to.
What's really the issue IMO is that a lot of people have an entitlement fantasy that says because they enjoy doing X, there has to be someone out there who is going to cater to X or life is unfair. The makers of these games, or any games for that matter, are in business to make money. If they can make a big enough profit from your particular niche, great, they'll probably do something for you. If not, then they won't and it's foolish to whine and cry and kick your feet because you happen to enjoy something that is inherently unprofitable for developers. Nobody owes you anything, you get to pick from the games that are on the market, you can pass feedback to developers if you like, but there are no guarantees that they'll implement any of them. A lot of people think they have far more power and influence as end-users than they actually do.
Absolutely. It's like everything else; take stuff too seriously and it just sucks the fun right out of it .. that's twice as tragic when said stuff happens to be a recreational activity like gaming. It's lamentable, but a futile lament. People don't change, and some MMO gamers just have an overly aggressive streak of competitiveness that drives them to attempt to "win" the MMO. There are also the people with vast reserves of spare time that exhaust all the available content then whine about how stale the game is. Crazy but true. I blame "hardcore" gamers for the lack of fluff/social mechanics in modern MMOs. They're constantly sucking up content and demanding moremoremore, it's no surprise that the developers can't spare time on the fun stuff like crafting and housing. (The Leroy Jenkins thing was completely staged, btw)
being a X-Hardcore Gammer i will tell you from the door that YES YES YES YES we kill any game we play. not only for our selves but in the long run for everybody.
This is a thread that will definitively make it to the Staff Blog section :P
I'm what you could call an Hardcore gamer. I spent several hours a day playing a game but I don't race to the finish. I take my time and enjoy the game. I'm playing a sandbox MMORPG though.
What I think is that the mass-market MMORPG is not adapted to Hardcore gamers. They are more about the casuals than the Hardcore which explains why hardcore will burn through content too quickly. But it's not the mass-market's fault. It's the hardcore's fault for not playing a game adapted to his needs.
I left the linear-based MMORPG market long ago. I couldn't stand playing games that I also believe lacked content. I wasn't really burning through content though, I just happened to have more free time than a normal person and since I love MMORPGs well....I played MMORPGs. So of course I'd reach the end-game a lot faster than the average person and, at the same time, would get bored a lot quicker by the lack of update. Then I started playing sandbox MMORPGs (I was too young back in UO days) and there's a never-ending influx of player generated content, that I rarely get bored (unless the server is pretty quiet).
Basically, I think Hardcore gamers didn't ruin the game for themselves, they bought the wrong game in the first place.
I've noticed that hardcore gamers tend to be the most passionate about mmorpgs, which of course is what makes them consider themselves hardcore. They study everything about a particular game, download maps, analyze strategies, and buy multiple accounts. They want to be the first to accomplish something ingame. They can give you percentages of ratios in regards to how one piece of armor affects the dps, str, wis, int, whatever of another piece of equipment. Most of the time I don't know what they are talking about. When I play an mmorpg, I just want to know what's on the other side of that hill. I want to have a story with somekind of thought put into it. I want to be able to work with other people to save a kingdom, or defeat the dragon, monster, ultimate evil, whatever. For me, it's about being part of a community of people that "live" and work together in this virtual world and immmersing yourself in said world. It's like being an active participant in a good book. For some hardcore gamers, it becomes less about the adventure and wander of a new world to explore, than a breakdown and study of the mmorpgs game mechanics. They want to be the first and only ones to beat that dragon. It's less about being part of a community than being number one. In doing that, they study the game so much in order to dominate other gamers that any real joy they get isn't in the game itself but in "pwnin nubs". Pretty soon, that gets boring. They bash the game and move on to the next upcoming game with all the zeal and passion they heaped into the first one. It reminds me of the classic Leroy Jenkins clip. They're all planning the raid, doing "number crunches" and sounding bored as hell, when Leroy just runs in, trains everything and gets everyone killed. He was the only one that was trying to have fun. They sounded like bored office workers discussing paper clips.
Your confusing hardcore gamers with powergamers. Hard-core people generally like unforgiving worlds and loose rulesets. Powergamers are the ones who analyze game mechanics and rush through content trying to be the "best".
Do they ruin it for themselves? No, not at all. It's part of their psychological makeup... its what "gets them off". Chances are if played the way you play, they would be bored senseless. The same way you would be bored playing the way that they play.
I've noticed that hardcore gamers tend to be the most passionate about mmorpgs, which of course is what makes them consider themselves hardcore. They study everything about a particular game, download maps, analyze strategies, and buy multiple accounts. They want to be the first to accomplish something ingame. They can give you percentages of ratios in regards to how one piece of armor affects the dps, str, wis, int, whatever of another piece of equipment. Most of the time I don't know what they are talking about. When I play an mmorpg, I just want to know what's on the other side of that hill. I want to have a story with somekind of thought put into it. I want to be able to work with other people to save a kingdom, or defeat the dragon, monster, ultimate evil, whatever. For me, it's about being part of a community of people that "live" and work together in this virtual world and immmersing yourself in said world. It's like being an active participant in a good book. For some hardcore gamers, it becomes less about the adventure and wander of a new world to explore, than a breakdown and study of the mmorpgs game mechanics. They want to be the first and only ones to beat that dragon. It's less about being part of a community than being number one. In doing that, they study the game so much in order to dominate other gamers that any real joy they get isn't in the game itself but in "pwnin nubs". Pretty soon, that gets boring. They bash the game and move on to the next upcoming game with all the zeal and passion they heaped into the first one. It reminds me of the classic Leroy Jenkins clip. They're all planning the raid, doing "number crunches" and sounding bored as hell, when Leroy just runs in, trains everything and gets everyone killed. He was the only one that was trying to have fun. They sounded like bored office workers discussing paper clips.
Well... that's kind of a tricky situation. After all, for some players, doing the number crunching, parsing and squeezing every last stat % they can out of a game *is* the fun. They have little to no interest in lore or questing. They're all about making the most effective and efficient character they can. *That's* the game to them. And it's their right to play it that way. I personally couldn't care less about percentages and my playstyle seems to closely mirror your own... but I don't think the so-called "min-maxers" are having any less fun in their own way.
Now... in terms of long-term enjoyment? Perhaps a different story. After all, once you find that perfect build and have your character spec'd out as the most effective and efficient character you can... what's left? Work on another one and do the whole thing over again? I do notice those people getting bored because, in essence, they are limiting their own enjoyment to one very specific thing. So, they're definitely enjoying themselves, just not for as long as the more "explorer/adventurer" type would.
I have a good example...
Friend of mine and I both started playing FFXI one day apart - he started the day after me after seeing me starting out on it. The difference in our playstyles became immediately apparent. I was very much the explorer/adventurer/socializer/goof-offer type who did what ever struck me as entertaining. If I felt like partying, I partied. If I felt like crafting, I'd get what I could and craft... exploring, socializing, etc. etc. My friend was all about "playing the game as perfectly as possible" - in fact, that was practically his mantra.
I would learn the game by playing, observing, trial-and-error, etc.. He learned the game by studying it. It's no exaggeration to say that for a while, he knew every single FFXI-related site on the 'net - including those in foreign-languages which he would find a way to translate. His strategy guide was so worn and filled with bookmarks, highlights, notes and such that it was falling apart after a time. My strat guide remained almost like new and I eventually ended up giving it to him to replace his own... the one I gave him was pretty beaten up before long as well. He spent easily as much time studying FFXI out-of-game as he did actually playing it.
I would describe a situation that came up that I had a great deal of fun in, usually just involving me or someone else doing something random for the hell of it. He would respond by saying "Sounds fun, I guess, but it's not very productive use of your time. Personally, I would have..." and t hen goes on to give me a lecture on how to play FFXI as "perfectly as possible".
He would send me link after link after link after link to guides on how to play a given job, how to do this, how to do that... He *swore* by those and wouldn't *dare* do anything if a guide didn't tell him to. In his mind, he was playing FFXI "as perfectly as possible"... to me, I was just having fun.
The key difference in what our individual playstyles yielded for us became most apparent when we were discussing CoP missions. He was satisfied at having completed a portion of his CoP missions as "perfectly as possible" with the "perfect group setup" - which he'd derived from an online guide... with "the perfect strategy" - also derived from an online guide.. using "all the perfect gear" - yep, also derived from an online guide. That was his enjoyment.. he knew nothing of the storyline, felt nothing in terms of satisfaction of having defeated a difficult battle. To him, it was all about "having played the game as perfectly as possible". When I came around to discussing my impressions, it was all about the storyline, the fights themselves, the funny things that happened, the close-calls, etc. etc. All he could take away from it was how we could have been more efficient had we followed the guides he used. And we'd both been successful, mind you. Only my friend insisted that my group hadn't done it the "best possible way" and, so, "did it wrong", basically.
When I think of it... the guy's a freaking Vulcan.
But anyway... he burned out on FFXI a long time ago, no longer finding anything enjoyable about it. I'd argue he never really "had fun" a single moment in all the time he played, because he was too busy scrutinizing his every move in trying to "play the game as perfectly as possible". Conversely, I can still enjoy logging into FFXI and doing whatever I feel like doing, just as much as I ever did. While I can bring up "good old times" in FFXI and reminisce about a novel's worth of fun memories and intense moments... My friend's memory banks are practically empty. He was so caught up in playing "as perfectly as possible" that he never allowed himself to just have fun. And, when I bring up fun moments to him, I think I can sense what might be a bit of jealousy for that very reason.
To sum it up... I look back on FFXI as being a series of great memories... He looks back on it as wasted time and seems almost resentful of it.
So... Though we were both certainly playing the way we preferred... who do I think has enjoyed the game more at the end of the day? I would say myself, hands-down.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Comments
I agree with this statement. The hardcore players think you dont have the skill, ability or drive to compete with them.
Go ahead and say, its because they have no lives... and you're right.. i know thats whats next..
FIXED
So let me see if I have this straight.
Hardcore Vs Casual
Group Vs Solo
Trinity Vs Zerg
PVP Vs PVE
Open World Vs Instancing
Sandbox Vs Themepark
There seems to be a pattern of left vs right.
Did I miss any on my list?
Ken
www.ActionMMORPG.com
One man, a small pile of money, and the screwball idea of a DIY Indie MMORPG? Yep, that's him. ~sigh~
You forgot casual vs hardcore. Nope, nvm.
Then I say level vs skill grind.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Have we yet come to agree upon the defintion of a hardcore player?
Yes, anything leaning towards masochism.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
I'd be willing to bet a lot of the people here you're referring to, were what could be considered "hardcore" players at some point. Due to RL issues and changes in life style a lot of people don't have the time for that any longer. When I played galaxies I was straight up a hardcore player I wouldn't of gotten into FIGHT otherwise (you were in VOD a casual and hardcore guild weren't you?). I know exactly where you're coming from in your opinion of other players who aren't like that. I was accused of hacking left and right in that game. Most in our guild were to some extent simply because we played so much we all had uber gear.
What I am seeing in this thread for the most part are people speaking from experience on the issue. IMO it's only bad when these types of players expect every game to be hardcore and expect every dev to cater to them and theirs.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I'll take a stab at it:
A hardcore gamer is a person who is, or thinks he is, a better or more committed player than people he sees as being inferior or less committed in playing the same game. The general pattern is that a hardcore gamer prioritizes large amounts of personal resources (time, money, effort) toward playing the game, and often times in doing so is perceived as neglecting other areas of his life. Hardcore gamers are proud of their achievements (real or imagined) and tend to hold an elitist self image based upon such achievements. In general, it could be stated that their perception of the game falls more along the lines of a sports event, or possibly even a crisis real life event such as military participation in a war.
In more general terms. If you win and you're damned proud of it moreso than anything else in your life, then you more likely fit as a hardcore gamer. If you lose and you think the guy who beats you has malformed personal priorities and is out of touch with the fact that "its just a game", then you more likely fit in as a casual, or that's how a hardcore would look at it.
That's my take on it, but hey... I'm just a recovering hardcore who can't play like I want to because I work too much.
Ken
www.ActionMMORPG.com
One man, a small pile of money, and the screwball idea of a DIY Indie MMORPG? Yep, that's him. ~sigh~
Wouldn't most here be considered a part of the hardcore MMO crowd? Honestly would a casual come to sites like this? Sure maybe you consider yourself casual by your playstyle within a game. However when you're using the rest of your spare time to discuss MMO's in general to me that's basically stepping into the realm of hardcore, second when you're building your own MMO alone I'd say your pretty hardcore :P.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
They're typically the people who break the game too. If anyone discovers that by using a certain piece of armor, coupled with a particular weapon, modified by this sequence of buffs, you can become ridiculously powerful, you can be certain that it was one of the anal-retentive hardcores who would rather maintain a spreadsheet on the minutia of the game than just sit down and play.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
You might be hardcore if you .....
-dabble in adult underwear to avoid downtime.
-start to catch on fire if you walk into sunlight.
-consider mountain dew part of the nutrition pyramid.
Yes, I do agree with the statement, As i find myself sometimes slipping in and out of the harcore casual style of play
Since we're flaming.....
You might be casual if you....
-Had your mom buy you a trophy so you could feel good after finishing last in your grade school spelling bee.
-Have ever bragged about your job and wife to a 12 year old over the internet after they killed you. Good job ace, I'm sure he cares.
The Official God FAQ
Hardcore players playing casual games are begging for it, same as the other way around.
A game made by and for hardcore players is made to be played that way, it works fine then. But if you try the same with a game for casual players you will get bored soon.
There is no right or wrong way to enjoy playing but there are right or wrong game for your play-style. Buying a casual game and then complaining about it is pointless, you are not playing the game as intended.
Right now is casual gaming most popular and therefore are most games casual, it was the other way around 10 years ago but things like that goes and comes, but there are still some games that aims at hardcore players.
Saying that your play-style is right and someone else's wrong is just ignorant.
Very well said. My thoughts exactly.
There is NO miracle patch.
95% of what you see in beta won't change by launch.
Hope is not a stategy.
______________________________
"This kind of topic is like one of those little cartoon boxes held up by a stick on a string, with a piece of meat under it. In other words, bait."
In some games being "hardcore" is a requirement for the upper tier endgame content.
For example, it is absolutely impossible for a casual player, and in fact for most players to upgrade relics in FFXI. It has taken me 3 years to upgrade Mandau and I don't expect to be finished until the middle of next year.
Actually, I think this needs hedged. Every game gets old IF you obsess over it.
Here's a little trick that I learned awhile back. Play about three games at a time. Not simultaneously silly. Just don't focus entirely on one game. It also helps if those three games are in different genres.
Of course, this is a major problem with MMOs in general and the main reason why I don't normally play them. MMORPGs demand all of your time. Unless you are willing to devote 4+ hours a night, every night (8+ hours a night on the weekends), don't bother. This doesn't leave a lot of time for deathmatching on Quake Live or managing your team in Madden or Racing in Forza Motorsport 3 or trying to beat Contra with three lives and no continues or.... or.... Well, you get the picture....
Playing three games simply spreads your time investment out -- it doesn't modify the gameplay hours it takes for any of those individual games to get old. The only thing that might do that is if your memory is poor and you forget some of the gameplay patterns (and rediscover them.)
The only thing that will keep players playing prolonged periods of time is if the game's depth is layered. Grandmaster chess players have long past the point at which pattern discovery came in a rapid series of fun, but they still play because of the enjoyment of mastery and because there are still-deeper patterns to be discovered. This is referred to as Game Depth.
Basically the goal of a game is to unearth new layers of patterns on a regular basis, so the player is always in a simultaneous state of Discovery (of new patterns) and Mastery (of known patterns) to counteract the burnout of Expiration (of old patterns.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Actually, I think this needs hedged. Every game gets old IF you obsess over it.
Here's a little trick that I learned awhile back. Play about three games at a time. Not simultaneously silly. Just don't focus entirely on one game. It also helps if those three games are in different genres.
Of course, this is a major problem with MMOs in general and the main reason why I don't normally play them. MMORPGs demand all of your time. Unless you are willing to devote 4+ hours a night, every night (8+ hours a night on the weekends), don't bother. This doesn't leave a lot of time for deathmatching on Quake Live or managing your team in Madden or Racing in Forza Motorsport 3 or trying to beat Contra with three lives and no continues or.... or.... Well, you get the picture....
Playing three games simply spreads your time investment out -- it doesn't modify the gameplay hours it takes for any of those individual games to get old. The only thing that might do that is if your memory is poor and you forget some of the gameplay patterns (and rediscover them.)
The only thing that will keep players playing prolonged periods of time is if the game's depth is layered. Grandmaster chess players have long past the point at which pattern discovery came in a rapid series of fun, but they still play because of the enjoyment of mastery and because there are still-deeper patterns to be discovered. This is referred to as Game Depth.
Basically the goal of a game is to unearth new layers of patterns on a regular basis, so the player is always in a simultaneous state of Discovery (of new patterns) and Mastery (of known patterns) to counteract the burnout of Expiration (of old patterns.)
I see exactly what you're saying, but it rings just a little hollow for me. Or rather, it brings up an even deeper question about design issues. Games like Chess and Go are incredibly deep but they have a bare minimum of rules and elements. You can literally print the rules to either game on a single sheet of paper. Bringing it back to video games, I still play tons of classic arcade games as well as indie and doujin games that are similarly designed. These games also were made with a minimal number of game elements and gameplay so simple that you could just pick them up and play them. Seriously, who would have thought that anyone would still be playing Ninja Gaiden (NES version) and Contra in 2010? And XBox Live is about to add a virtual Arcade feature where you can buy old arcade games, complete with 3D modeled cabinet, or pay 50 cents per play.
And this isn't just confined to board games and arcade games. I dare you pick up Elite, Master of Orion, Angband or M.U.L.E. and not become engrossed. Likewise, these games used little in the way of game elements and some even used procedurally generated content. Yet, they were infinitly replayable.
MMORPGs seem to go in a different direction and I think it somehow undermines the replayability. Rather than keeping a small number of elements that can be mixed and matched in infinitely useful combinations, they just pile tons of very specific crap on top of a sub par combat system and then constantly nerf and patch. Even with the encylopedic amount of items, spells and monsters, the fact that it all boils down to a handful of stats and canned strategies just destroys the long term gameplay possibilities. Even in something as old as Chess, there is room for the player to inovate. I don't think you can say that about any MMORPG on the market today.
Heh, yeah that's the way good design works. As the quote goes, "Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is not left to take away." (Antoine de Saint-Exupery)
Sadly few MMORPGs pursue this goal (even games like WOW, where this philosophy rears its head a bit, are bogged down in complexity in the end.) Sadder still are the subset of gamers who decry game accessibility as if it's somehow bad that a game can be easily learned, as Chess is. It's not only a positive trait, but one of the keys to a great game.
I disagree with your (possible) insinuation that the nerf/buff balancing process is bad for a game. Balancing is critical so that a game offers mutliple viable strategies. Poor balancing hurts a game, sure, but good balancing patches can take a rather shallow game (early Starcraft) and turn it into a Chess (current Starcraft).
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Since we're flaming.....
You might be casual if you....
-Had your mom buy you a trophy so you could feel good after finishing last in your grade school spelling bee.
-Have ever bragged about your job and wife to a 12 year old over the internet after they killed you. Good job ace, I'm sure he cares.
I bow to your awesomeness, sir.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Do casual gamers ruin the game for themselves?
There are people who want everything to be soloable and achievable no matter how good or bad they are. In effect, they ask for godmode, but a game with godmode turned on becomes very boring indeed. When the game has been made casual, they complain there is no challenge left.
The problem with your post is that you mistake hardcore for gear orientated AND also have a rather self-centered view of the universe. YOU think Leroy is the only one having fun. Who are you to say what someone else finds fun? Maybe the rest of the group enjoyed the planning, executing it and seeing it succeed. Not everyone is satisfied with just hack&slashing their way through everything.
What is ruining MMO's is that we, customers and developers are unable to accept that not all games are for everybody. It would be like trying to merge Deus Ex, CounterStrike, Duke Nukem and Arma2 into one game and then expect it to be any good.
Some players want large complex battles that take as long to plan as to fight. Other want a hack&slash. Itis foolish to try to satisfy both in the same game.
Since we're flaming.....
You might be casual if you....
-Had your mom buy you a trophy so you could feel good after finishing last in your grade school spelling bee.
-Have ever bragged about your job and wife to a 12 year old over the internet after they killed you. Good job ace, I'm sure he cares.
Woah! I wasn't flaming, i was attempting to make a funny !!
and i get killed all the time in cod4. Probably by 12 year olds. and i don't have a wife........./wrists
You are absolutely right here, you cannot satisfy everyone in any single game, but that doesn't automatically mean that everyone deserves to be satisfied in any particular genre either. It's like asking to combine a FPS and Pokemon. Gotta shoot 'em all. Nintendo just isn't going to make that game no matter how much you might want them to.
What's really the issue IMO is that a lot of people have an entitlement fantasy that says because they enjoy doing X, there has to be someone out there who is going to cater to X or life is unfair. The makers of these games, or any games for that matter, are in business to make money. If they can make a big enough profit from your particular niche, great, they'll probably do something for you. If not, then they won't and it's foolish to whine and cry and kick your feet because you happen to enjoy something that is inherently unprofitable for developers. Nobody owes you anything, you get to pick from the games that are on the market, you can pass feedback to developers if you like, but there are no guarantees that they'll implement any of them. A lot of people think they have far more power and influence as end-users than they actually do.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
being a X-Hardcore Gammer i will tell you from the door that YES YES YES YES we kill any game we play. not only for our selves but in the long run for everybody.
This is a thread that will definitively make it to the Staff Blog section :P
I'm what you could call an Hardcore gamer. I spent several hours a day playing a game but I don't race to the finish. I take my time and enjoy the game. I'm playing a sandbox MMORPG though.
What I think is that the mass-market MMORPG is not adapted to Hardcore gamers. They are more about the casuals than the Hardcore which explains why hardcore will burn through content too quickly. But it's not the mass-market's fault. It's the hardcore's fault for not playing a game adapted to his needs.
I left the linear-based MMORPG market long ago. I couldn't stand playing games that I also believe lacked content. I wasn't really burning through content though, I just happened to have more free time than a normal person and since I love MMORPGs well....I played MMORPGs. So of course I'd reach the end-game a lot faster than the average person and, at the same time, would get bored a lot quicker by the lack of update. Then I started playing sandbox MMORPGs (I was too young back in UO days) and there's a never-ending influx of player generated content, that I rarely get bored (unless the server is pretty quiet).
Basically, I think Hardcore gamers didn't ruin the game for themselves, they bought the wrong game in the first place.
Your confusing hardcore gamers with powergamers. Hard-core people generally like unforgiving worlds and loose rulesets. Powergamers are the ones who analyze game mechanics and rush through content trying to be the "best".
Do they ruin it for themselves? No, not at all. It's part of their psychological makeup... its what "gets them off". Chances are if played the way you play, they would be bored senseless. The same way you would be bored playing the way that they play.
Well... that's kind of a tricky situation. After all, for some players, doing the number crunching, parsing and squeezing every last stat % they can out of a game *is* the fun. They have little to no interest in lore or questing. They're all about making the most effective and efficient character they can. *That's* the game to them. And it's their right to play it that way. I personally couldn't care less about percentages and my playstyle seems to closely mirror your own... but I don't think the so-called "min-maxers" are having any less fun in their own way.
Now... in terms of long-term enjoyment? Perhaps a different story. After all, once you find that perfect build and have your character spec'd out as the most effective and efficient character you can... what's left? Work on another one and do the whole thing over again? I do notice those people getting bored because, in essence, they are limiting their own enjoyment to one very specific thing. So, they're definitely enjoying themselves, just not for as long as the more "explorer/adventurer" type would.
I have a good example...
Friend of mine and I both started playing FFXI one day apart - he started the day after me after seeing me starting out on it. The difference in our playstyles became immediately apparent. I was very much the explorer/adventurer/socializer/goof-offer type who did what ever struck me as entertaining. If I felt like partying, I partied. If I felt like crafting, I'd get what I could and craft... exploring, socializing, etc. etc. My friend was all about "playing the game as perfectly as possible" - in fact, that was practically his mantra.
I would learn the game by playing, observing, trial-and-error, etc.. He learned the game by studying it. It's no exaggeration to say that for a while, he knew every single FFXI-related site on the 'net - including those in foreign-languages which he would find a way to translate. His strategy guide was so worn and filled with bookmarks, highlights, notes and such that it was falling apart after a time. My strat guide remained almost like new and I eventually ended up giving it to him to replace his own... the one I gave him was pretty beaten up before long as well. He spent easily as much time studying FFXI out-of-game as he did actually playing it.
I would describe a situation that came up that I had a great deal of fun in, usually just involving me or someone else doing something random for the hell of it. He would respond by saying "Sounds fun, I guess, but it's not very productive use of your time. Personally, I would have..." and t hen goes on to give me a lecture on how to play FFXI as "perfectly as possible".
He would send me link after link after link after link to guides on how to play a given job, how to do this, how to do that... He *swore* by those and wouldn't *dare* do anything if a guide didn't tell him to. In his mind, he was playing FFXI "as perfectly as possible"... to me, I was just having fun.
The key difference in what our individual playstyles yielded for us became most apparent when we were discussing CoP missions. He was satisfied at having completed a portion of his CoP missions as "perfectly as possible" with the "perfect group setup" - which he'd derived from an online guide... with "the perfect strategy" - also derived from an online guide.. using "all the perfect gear" - yep, also derived from an online guide. That was his enjoyment.. he knew nothing of the storyline, felt nothing in terms of satisfaction of having defeated a difficult battle. To him, it was all about "having played the game as perfectly as possible". When I came around to discussing my impressions, it was all about the storyline, the fights themselves, the funny things that happened, the close-calls, etc. etc. All he could take away from it was how we could have been more efficient had we followed the guides he used. And we'd both been successful, mind you. Only my friend insisted that my group hadn't done it the "best possible way" and, so, "did it wrong", basically.
When I think of it... the guy's a freaking Vulcan.
But anyway... he burned out on FFXI a long time ago, no longer finding anything enjoyable about it. I'd argue he never really "had fun" a single moment in all the time he played, because he was too busy scrutinizing his every move in trying to "play the game as perfectly as possible". Conversely, I can still enjoy logging into FFXI and doing whatever I feel like doing, just as much as I ever did. While I can bring up "good old times" in FFXI and reminisce about a novel's worth of fun memories and intense moments... My friend's memory banks are practically empty. He was so caught up in playing "as perfectly as possible" that he never allowed himself to just have fun. And, when I bring up fun moments to him, I think I can sense what might be a bit of jealousy for that very reason.
To sum it up... I look back on FFXI as being a series of great memories... He looks back on it as wasted time and seems almost resentful of it.
So... Though we were both certainly playing the way we preferred... who do I think has enjoyed the game more at the end of the day? I would say myself, hands-down.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops