even though i quit playing i think this is total crap... rogues are the only melee class in the game that aren't hybrid, they can only do 1 thing, and thats damage. If they are saying that rogue damage is too high then i would like to know how they've come across this info, cos if they've look at the videos of rogues doing 10k dps then they need to consider that those were raid setups to maximise dps... in a average raid setup theres no way that rogues can do that damage... also whats the point of having a pure dps class when they can only do the same dmg as hybrid classes...
just another reason for no one to play rogue, on my server rogues don't get a look in on raids, people will always take a melee warrior ahead of a rogue due to the fact that most boss damage is aoe and we take too much of a beating...
oh and since when do warlocks do too low damage?? a warlock i know is always top3 on the charts so how is their damage too low... and have they actually thought of the knock on effect that increasing a locks damage will be in pvp, bloody hugh!...
The reason that two Rogue talent specs had their damage nerfed (around a 7% nerf to Assassination and a 2% nerf to Combat) is because they were way ahead of the curve in PvE. It has nothing to do with PvP damage. The reasoning behind it is to try and make the damage output of the DPS classes equal so no one class/spec has a huge advantage over another, so is not stacked in raids over bringing a player with another class/spec character that might do less damage. Anyone that plays WoW currently and raids has seen the numbers Rogues were putting up and...
------------------------- "Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"
Another thing that I want to point out is the nature of changes in MMOGs. I see a lot of people grappling onto the whole, "See WoW sucks because they can't seem to balance their game after 5 years! ROFFLE lookit me aren't I so clever?!" No, not really sir, because you didn't stop and think, as per usual... By the very nature of any MMOG it changes on almost a daily basis. Developers add one new piece of content and it can have one hundred different effects on the current game world. By that ever-changing nature that is inherent in an MMOG, the concept of "Balance" is an ongoing struggle. It's not a bad thing that MMOG developers have to keep tweaking and balancing aspects of their game then because it's just the nature of the genre... So stop making yourselves look stupid by bringing it up all the time, k?
Oh and by the way, I'm not really a big WoW apologist. Yes I do play it as my "default" MMOG when I'm bored or need a break from whatever I am playing at the moment. I don't think WoW is the second coming or anything, but it is what it is...
------------------------- "Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"
The reason that two Rogue talent specs had their damage nerfed (around a 7% nerf to Assassination and a 2% nerf to Combat) is because they were way ahead of the curve in PvE. It has nothing to do with PvP damage. The reasoning behind it is to try and make the damage output of the DPS classes equal so no one class/spec has a huge advantage over another, so is not stacked in raids over bringing a player with another class/spec character that might do less damage. Anyone that plays WoW currently and raids has seen the numbers Rogues were putting up and...
'no one class/spec has a huge advantage over another'.. tell that to raid leaders on my server who will always take more ranged then melee, and when they do take melee rogues are at the bottom of the list, they will always take a dps warrior over a rogue - the reason - bosses do aoe dmg mostly, warriors wear plate meaning they take less dmg then rogues. I have got a friend whos a dps warrior who has 30k+ health UNBUFFED!! now tell me why you would take a rogue when hes just going to go squish and is going to need healing alot more? this will just mean that rogues will be even fewer now..
Rogue type classes seem to always get the nerf in PvP games. I think other players just get angry that another class can sneak up to them, jump out of the shadows and do lots of damage. But that is what a rogue class does, it sacrifices armor and defenses to put out high dps and have stealth abilities.
It was the only class I had any slight enjoyment playing in WAR and then they destroyed it so I left.
Luckily as far as WoW is concerned I decided to try it out over christmas break to see how the game was now a days, and after playing for a couple weeks I got bored and I was getting ready to unsub. But something like this does help guarantee that since my main is a rogue that I can unsub. I thought hunters (at least level 40 and below since that's where I got up to) where so ungodly PvP powerful that it was disgusting but good to see rogues are the ones that got focused on just cause players seem to get extra anger over something that sneaks up as opposed to something that kites.
Originally posted by Merlin1977 'no one class/spec has a huge advantage over another'.. tell that to raid leaders on my server who will always take more ranged then melee, and when they do take melee rogues are at the bottom of the list, they will always take a dps warrior over a rogue - the reason - bosses do aoe dmg mostly, warriors wear plate meaning they take less dmg then rogues. I have got a friend whos a dps warrior who has 30k+ health UNBUFFED!! now tell me why you would take a rogue when hes just going to go squish and is going to need healing alot more? this will just mean that rogues will be even fewer now..
That is simply an effect of poor raid management and raiders not being raid aware enough to be in a raid environment... If your raiding with a bunch of scrubs that can't move out when an AoE is happening or something bad is on the floor, then they have no business raiding in the first place. If raid "leaders" have to compensate for scrubs that can't follow directions and be raid aware by stacking with ranged and plate wearing melee, then you are raiding with the wrong people... This is not Blizzards fault.
------------------------- "Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"
As has been pointed out, this mythical beast "Balance" doesn't exist. There are WAY too many factors(some out of the Devs hands) to ever be able to "balance" classes. Howling about some class being "OP" is MUCH easier than learning to use ones own class more effectively. Over Powered is another interesting concept, that needs to be examined, rather than emoted about.
What "OP" usually translates to is someone lost, and is looking around for excuses. Recount and other damage meters have become an obsession with all too many people. Damage out put doesn't always translate to superior results. We've all seen the results when some mage or lock grabs aggro from the tank. Its not just damage, but how and when its applied.
There are other factors that make classes shine in some situations, and get hammered in others. Player experience and knowledge go a long way towards using a classes abilities effectively. But WAY too many people can't think straight in the first place, and will grab the first and easy excuse of some class being OP. One has only to look at the forums to see endless examples of that type of behavior. One of the better ways to deal with this problem, is separate PvP and PvE so that one can change abilities in one, without causing problems in the other. Other than that, take the howling in the forums with a truck load of salt, and macro the response... "Working As Intended".
WoW developers have been playing FoTM since beta. It keeps players playing because many of them simply rotate their alts and make the new OP FoTM their main class. They could balance the game and be done with it, but they choose not to. Developers keep thier jobs, and there is a steady rotation of class populations. WoW has been like this since the beginning.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Great idea I read a long time ago. Let's give everyone the same skills across the board and just flavor them by calling one group "Warriors", one group "Priests" and the remaining as "DPS". That way everyone is even across the board and everyone can stop your crying about how one class is "OP" because they can't a) play it properly or b) just got ganked 5 min ago by one.
This is coming from a Mut rogue. Change it, leave it, whatever. Isn't really gonna stop anything I'm doing.
As far as lacking utility in a raid, I tend to agree. Rogues are pure dps. That's their job. However, anyone who is gonna try to argue that hunters are more useful is kidding themselves. Traps? Please. Tranc shot? Yeah, rogues have a poison to do that too (OH, FORGOT ABOUT THAT DIDN'T YOU?)
In any case instead of whining about it here, make yourself a nice online petition to have the class removed entirely since they're "useless". Until you take that small initiative to prove your point, you're just blowing hot air.
But then, you'll probably get what you want if they cut the damage back excessively, like Blizz LOVES to do, making the class useless besides for ganking level 10s.
But as I said, I'll still play mine either way.
NEWS FLASH! PAYING THE SUB IN F2P = NO DIFFERENCE THAN P2P GAMES!
My rouge frind is pumping about 13k dps in raids I think a nerf for pve is due , despite people crying about utlity there will always be room for rouges , they wear leather have very little competion for it (besides druids) and do there fair share of damage. To all the rogues crying "I wont get to raid we have no buffs" I say you wont get to raid because your rotation sucks
What about Ret Pali? Hell they do almost as much dps as rogues ,locks,and Mages yet they wear Plate,Can heal and dps witht he best of them.I watch all the time even with all the dungeon runs with the new dungeon grp finder and Pali is consistantly at the top of the dps charts.Instead of nerfing Rogue dps,why not work on the stun locks etc. I have seen Stun Locks many times on people and there were few chances for them to ever get out of it 1 on 1.
What about Ret Pali? Hell they do almost as much dps as rogues ,locks,and Mages yet they wear Plate,Can heal and dps witht he best of them.I watch all the time even with all the dungeon runs with the new dungeon grp finder and Pali is consistantly at the top of the dps charts.Instead of nerfing Rogue dps,why not work on the stun locks etc. I have seen Stun Locks many times on people and there were few chances for them to ever get out of it 1 on 1.
To quote Philip J Fry: "2 wrongs doesn't mean a right..." ("..but 3 does").
But to be honest doesn't it really matters anyways the next expansion is coming and Blizzard will be forced to start nerfing from the beginning again. There is as usual 2 problems here, first they raise the levelcaps several time unbalancing all classes. Secondary they should have some kind of formula to compare how good as class is (with stuns, armor dps and so on). Well, maybe they already have that but then they need to give it some more love.
Most pen and paper RPGs uses rather advanced mathematics to get the perfect balance, including with items. This assures that old content wont be useless after a while, for one thing do you count all effects in an item towards a point based system so that items at least have some balancing. They also stay at the same levelcap.
MMOs do it a different way and that means all older MMOs have balancing issues and that the gear from older zones is useless, EQ started that trend and most other MMOs including Wow is following after. It is not that strange of course, MMOs just been around for a bit over 10 years, PnP for 30.
Still, even if you have a point system that is rather exact you must sometimes pick out the old nerf bat. It is never fun to be nerfed but the only option is to get it right from the start and that is really hard.
Blizzard developers don't listen worth a shit, as they think all of their clients are teenage, bump face, monkeys with hormonal issues playing (they could be right).
Eventually, this game will sink itself. Why in the hell haven't they looked at Paladins, to me they are the ones that need the nerf stick?
"Rogues Taking it From Behind..." They nerf them? Finally, after 6 years of game life, t'was time. But do a nice nerf not just 10damage nerf cause they are the most imbalanced class over there in terms of damage. That's why u see half servers full of rogues...
seriously... did you even think before writing this down... rogues have NO utility in a raid
WARRIOR - can tank, Battle or commanding shout is always welcomed - wear plate, thus easier to heal
PALLY- healer, tank ,dps... plus they have blessings.
SHAMAN - again another hybrid.. but BL alone will make u more than worthy
PRIEST- heal . stam buff . you are ranged
DK - can tank. wear plate
LOCK - range dps. soulstone, portal..
HUNTER - range dps, tranq shot, traps..
MAGE -food, buff, spellsteal, range dps...
DRUID - battle rez... and there's just too much to type for this one.
Rogue- trick of trade....ummm......LOL. thats all.
Now tell me, why the hell would you bring a rogue in any raid if he is the most fragile melee dps, and doesnt bring anything of value to the raid except his dps?
soz for rant.
My old WoW guild was a 350 member raid guild, and one of the top 3 Horde raid guilds on the server, in progression. (We bounced between the second and third spot.) Know how many rogues we had?
TWO.
I think that pretty much says it all about a raid's "need".....for rogues.
Rogues, at least on my old server, were pretty much considered just a PvP class.
forget your last sentence about rogue being pvp class for a while, but saying that a raid doesn't need much of a rogue says quite much about. If blizzard is really thinking about adjusting all classes to the same level in DPS, they should make rogues worth the other classes.
it's not all about DPS in a raid. Survival, mobility and utility are quite important too. The thing is that Rogues lose on all field..
I find it extremely silly to keep worrying that one class is doing 10more DPS than another and having these constant balance changes. Certain classes should be doing more or less dmg than others, but this is the kind of BS that players must deal with in MMOs that try to mix PvE and PvP together!
Agreed. I am not a fan of PvP itself, but I only hate it because it keeps spilling into the PvE part of the game.
I really don't want to play a healer that can do equal damage to a soldier class. Hell, I don't even want to be able to survive easily on my own. If I wanted to kill things fast, I would roll a DPS class.
Everyone being equal also means nobody is unique.
It also creates players who think they should spec their support class as a damage class. Que Lotro Lore-masters specced for damage so they can't stun, or cure wounds.
Oh well, here is hoping some company or another will release a pure PvE game.
"Rogues Taking it From Behind..." They nerf them? Finally, after 6 years of game life, t'was time. But do a nice nerf not just 10damage nerf cause they are the most imbalanced class over there in terms of damage. That's why u see half servers full of rogues...
seriously... did you even think before writing this down... rogues have NO utility in a raid
WARRIOR - can tank, Battle or commanding shout is always welcomed - wear plate, thus easier to heal
PALLY- healer, tank ,dps... plus they have blessings.
SHAMAN - again another hybrid.. but BL alone will make u more than worthy
PRIEST- heal . stam buff . you are ranged
DK - can tank. wear plate
LOCK - range dps. soulstone, portal..
HUNTER - range dps, tranq shot, traps..
MAGE -food, buff, spellsteal, range dps...
DRUID - battle rez... and there's just too much to type for this one.
Rogue- trick of trade....ummm......LOL. thats all.
Now tell me, why the hell would you bring a rogue in any raid if he is the most fragile melee dps, and doesnt bring anything of value to the raid except his dps?
soz for rant.
hurray old-quoting.
Rogues can: TotT, which is stupidly useful on, y'know, good rogues, which you clearly aren't.
+3% crit buff to the raid VIA Master Poisoner in assassin
The ever-awesome Kick, which many fights need to utilize, of which only Shaman have a better version, kinda, in wind shear.
+4% physical damage received VIA Savage Combat in Combat (Cannot stack with the one from assassin)
A never-ending resource pool for damage that requires 0 cooldowns or dead zones to help recharge it, or gimmicks, like -every single GD mana user in the game- 8 seconds lost DPS is 8 seconds lost dps, rogues never need to evocate.
You don't need uber-awesome utility in every slot. Multiple mages negate each other with their respective buffs, except for 1 or 2 (focus magic can be cast on multiple people). Most classes with utility cannibalize each other. Period. Multiple rogues stacking TotT wouldn't, and all other utility usually doesn't suffer in this regard.
They have niche utilities like area de-enrages with Anisthetic Poison, powerful CC when needed, can mortal strike enemies. Sure, at a DPS loss for the poisons, but it's fricken there.
Throw in the fact that they aren't squishy at all compared to any other class in the raid unless you're an idiot and stand in void zones, and the rogue is a very well rounded utility/DPS class. They bring nothing more, and nothing less, to the table than a mage, hunter, or warlock would, and die just as fast as the mage, hunter, and warlock if the boss decides they should die.
All this pointless posturing merely shows that rogues don't want to lose their precious, stupidly-high DPS that trumps the boards on most fights in ICC so far.
Or, maybe you just want every raid to be 2 tanks, 5 healers, 2 "other" classes to support melee DPS, such as a fury war and enh shaman, and then 16 rogues.
Originally posted by Merlin1977 'no one class/spec has a huge advantage over another'.. tell that to raid leaders on my server who will always take more ranged then melee, and when they do take melee rogues are at the bottom of the list, they will always take a dps warrior over a rogue - the reason - bosses do aoe dmg mostly, warriors wear plate meaning they take less dmg then rogues. I have got a friend whos a dps warrior who has 30k+ health UNBUFFED!! now tell me why you would take a rogue when hes just going to go squish and is going to need healing alot more? this will just mean that rogues will be even fewer now..
That is simply an effect of poor raid management and raiders not being raid aware enough to be in a raid environment... If your raiding with a bunch of scrubs that can't move out when an AoE is happening or something bad is on the floor, then they have no business raiding in the first place. If raid "leaders" have to compensate for scrubs that can't follow directions and be raid aware by stacking with ranged and plate wearing melee, then you are raiding with the wrong people... This is not Blizzards fault.
No business raiding? So it is the player's fault then that they are using what works?
Actually when you think about it WOW should be one of the easiest MMO's to implement balance in PVP due to the fact that it mainly takes place in instances. I would think that a real easy way would be that when a person queues up for a battleground they are automatically given a preselected gear and weapon score for their class regardless of what they have equipped . From what I've come across in my years of playing the game its not so much the spec that a player has but the gear that they are able to use in those battlegrounds that helps to make them rather invincible.
I agree with you 100%! Guild wars uses this system, while it is technically not a MMO, to me it has one of the funniest and most balanced PVP system. When you join a PVP match everyone gets the same equipment, so you do not have people with way better gear then you, in the arena. Plus there is some Arena fights that limits what abilities you can use, it really makes it so it is based on the skill of the player.
Although to be honest what I am waiting for in a PVP game is full Collision detection for opposing factions, so you can not run through tanks or any other class. With that very limited CC, to me crowd control is a very pathetic way to attempt to add balance to classes. It is not fun for the person that just gets to watch his character die as he is constantly stunned. If ever a company makes a game like this, I would never play any of the MMOs out right now again. Since I hate unlimited CC in a PVP setting.
My rouge frind is pumping about 13k dps in raids I think a nerf for pve is due , despite people crying about utlity there will always be room for rouges , they wear leather have very little competion for it (besides druids) and do there fair share of damage. To all the rogues crying "I wont get to raid we have no buffs" I say you wont get to raid because your rotation sucks
As much as I like WoW, this is another huge problem in my opinion: The community is basically competing against itself instead of working together. I've never heard of someone complaining that someone else in thier group is doing a good job. WTF is up with that shit?
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
All this pointless posturing merely shows that rogues don't want to lose their precious, stupidly-high DPS that trumps the boards on most fights in ICC so far.
Oh it's all about the boards now. See, I thought it was about working together with a group to accomplish goals. Not who has the highest DPS. Guess I'm a little old-fashioned.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
EVERY class has got the bad end of the stick a time or two.. get over it... my rogue will still pull 8k DPS and i will pwn noobs in pvp if you just always going with what is OP your asking to get shot down...
One thing I truly hate about the classes is, basically ONE spec is viable for some classes in PvP. For Warriors, it was mainly Arms. Occasionally you'd see a Fury but compared to Arms they're DPS wasn't was good. So when I found a decent Prot spec, I rejoiced. Mainly cause I could SURVIVE and still deal decent damage. Warriors get virtually no healing outside of maybe Enraged Regen, pots and the occasional bandages. So a spec that doubles survival rate.. sign my ass up! I love prot on my warrior. They nerf it, I'll just roll another class.
My Rogue hasn't gotten any complaints from the NPC's, I wonder who's complaining? 1. PvP victims? 2. Jealous DPS? 3. Devs angry rogues are blowing through content too fast? 4. Tanks who can't hold aggro against a Rogue's mighty DPS? ...
looks more like rogue's conplaining here. Don't worry you can still stealth around like a chicken.
Balancing is quite simple,you either have the most dps or the most spike damage.If you have the most dps or the most spike dmg then you should have the weakest defense gear in the game.If the ystill have not figured it out by now,they will NEVER get it right.
The problem however is devs that play the game,the people in charge may be influenced ,you have to sometimes wonder if game changes especially after all these years are for the best of the game,or some selfish reason.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Comments
even though i quit playing i think this is total crap... rogues are the only melee class in the game that aren't hybrid, they can only do 1 thing, and thats damage. If they are saying that rogue damage is too high then i would like to know how they've come across this info, cos if they've look at the videos of rogues doing 10k dps then they need to consider that those were raid setups to maximise dps... in a average raid setup theres no way that rogues can do that damage... also whats the point of having a pure dps class when they can only do the same dmg as hybrid classes...
just another reason for no one to play rogue, on my server rogues don't get a look in on raids, people will always take a melee warrior ahead of a rogue due to the fact that most boss damage is aoe and we take too much of a beating...
oh and since when do warlocks do too low damage?? a warlock i know is always top3 on the charts so how is their damage too low... and have they actually thought of the knock on effect that increasing a locks damage will be in pvp, bloody hugh!...
/sigh
The reason that two Rogue talent specs had their damage nerfed (around a 7% nerf to Assassination and a 2% nerf to Combat) is because they were way ahead of the curve in PvE. It has nothing to do with PvP damage. The reasoning behind it is to try and make the damage output of the DPS classes equal so no one class/spec has a huge advantage over another, so is not stacked in raids over bringing a player with another class/spec character that might do less damage. Anyone that plays WoW currently and raids has seen the numbers Rogues were putting up and...
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"Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"
Member Since March 2004
Another thing that I want to point out is the nature of changes in MMOGs. I see a lot of people grappling onto the whole, "See WoW sucks because they can't seem to balance their game after 5 years! ROFFLE lookit me aren't I so clever?!" No, not really sir, because you didn't stop and think, as per usual... By the very nature of any MMOG it changes on almost a daily basis. Developers add one new piece of content and it can have one hundred different effects on the current game world. By that ever-changing nature that is inherent in an MMOG, the concept of "Balance" is an ongoing struggle. It's not a bad thing that MMOG developers have to keep tweaking and balancing aspects of their game then because it's just the nature of the genre... So stop making yourselves look stupid by bringing it up all the time, k?
Oh and by the way, I'm not really a big WoW apologist. Yes I do play it as my "default" MMOG when I'm bored or need a break from whatever I am playing at the moment. I don't think WoW is the second coming or anything, but it is what it is...
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"Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"
Member Since March 2004
'no one class/spec has a huge advantage over another'.. tell that to raid leaders on my server who will always take more ranged then melee, and when they do take melee rogues are at the bottom of the list, they will always take a dps warrior over a rogue - the reason - bosses do aoe dmg mostly, warriors wear plate meaning they take less dmg then rogues. I have got a friend whos a dps warrior who has 30k+ health UNBUFFED!! now tell me why you would take a rogue when hes just going to go squish and is going to need healing alot more? this will just mean that rogues will be even fewer now..
Rogue type classes seem to always get the nerf in PvP games. I think other players just get angry that another class can sneak up to them, jump out of the shadows and do lots of damage. But that is what a rogue class does, it sacrifices armor and defenses to put out high dps and have stealth abilities.
It was the only class I had any slight enjoyment playing in WAR and then they destroyed it so I left.
Luckily as far as WoW is concerned I decided to try it out over christmas break to see how the game was now a days, and after playing for a couple weeks I got bored and I was getting ready to unsub. But something like this does help guarantee that since my main is a rogue that I can unsub. I thought hunters (at least level 40 and below since that's where I got up to) where so ungodly PvP powerful that it was disgusting but good to see rogues are the ones that got focused on just cause players seem to get extra anger over something that sneaks up as opposed to something that kites.
That is simply an effect of poor raid management and raiders not being raid aware enough to be in a raid environment... If your raiding with a bunch of scrubs that can't move out when an AoE is happening or something bad is on the floor, then they have no business raiding in the first place. If raid "leaders" have to compensate for scrubs that can't follow directions and be raid aware by stacking with ranged and plate wearing melee, then you are raiding with the wrong people... This is not Blizzards fault.
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"Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"
Member Since March 2004
As has been pointed out, this mythical beast "Balance" doesn't exist. There are WAY too many factors(some out of the Devs hands) to ever be able to "balance" classes. Howling about some class being "OP" is MUCH easier than learning to use ones own class more effectively. Over Powered is another interesting concept, that needs to be examined, rather than emoted about.
What "OP" usually translates to is someone lost, and is looking around for excuses. Recount and other damage meters have become an obsession with all too many people. Damage out put doesn't always translate to superior results. We've all seen the results when some mage or lock grabs aggro from the tank. Its not just damage, but how and when its applied.
There are other factors that make classes shine in some situations, and get hammered in others. Player experience and knowledge go a long way towards using a classes abilities effectively. But WAY too many people can't think straight in the first place, and will grab the first and easy excuse of some class being OP. One has only to look at the forums to see endless examples of that type of behavior. One of the better ways to deal with this problem, is separate PvP and PvE so that one can change abilities in one, without causing problems in the other. Other than that, take the howling in the forums with a truck load of salt, and macro the response... "Working As Intended".
WoW developers have been playing FoTM since beta. It keeps players playing because many of them simply rotate their alts and make the new OP FoTM their main class. They could balance the game and be done with it, but they choose not to. Developers keep thier jobs, and there is a steady rotation of class populations. WoW has been like this since the beginning.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Great idea I read a long time ago. Let's give everyone the same skills across the board and just flavor them by calling one group "Warriors", one group "Priests" and the remaining as "DPS". That way everyone is even across the board and everyone can stop your crying about how one class is "OP" because they can't a) play it properly or b) just got ganked 5 min ago by one.
This is coming from a Mut rogue. Change it, leave it, whatever. Isn't really gonna stop anything I'm doing.
As far as lacking utility in a raid, I tend to agree. Rogues are pure dps. That's their job. However, anyone who is gonna try to argue that hunters are more useful is kidding themselves. Traps? Please. Tranc shot? Yeah, rogues have a poison to do that too (OH, FORGOT ABOUT THAT DIDN'T YOU?)
In any case instead of whining about it here, make yourself a nice online petition to have the class removed entirely since they're "useless". Until you take that small initiative to prove your point, you're just blowing hot air.
But then, you'll probably get what you want if they cut the damage back excessively, like Blizz LOVES to do, making the class useless besides for ganking level 10s.
But as I said, I'll still play mine either way.
NEWS FLASH! PAYING THE SUB IN F2P = NO DIFFERENCE THAN P2P GAMES!
Why the hell can't the whiners comprehend this?
My rouge frind is pumping about 13k dps in raids I think a nerf for pve is due , despite people crying about utlity there will always be room for rouges , they wear leather have very little competion for it (besides druids) and do there fair share of damage. To all the rogues crying "I wont get to raid we have no buffs" I say you wont get to raid because your rotation sucks
What about Ret Pali? Hell they do almost as much dps as rogues ,locks,and Mages yet they wear Plate,Can heal and dps witht he best of them.I watch all the time even with all the dungeon runs with the new dungeon grp finder and Pali is consistantly at the top of the dps charts.Instead of nerfing Rogue dps,why not work on the stun locks etc. I have seen Stun Locks many times on people and there were few chances for them to ever get out of it 1 on 1.
To quote Philip J Fry: "2 wrongs doesn't mean a right..." ("..but 3 does").
But to be honest doesn't it really matters anyways the next expansion is coming and Blizzard will be forced to start nerfing from the beginning again. There is as usual 2 problems here, first they raise the levelcaps several time unbalancing all classes. Secondary they should have some kind of formula to compare how good as class is (with stuns, armor dps and so on). Well, maybe they already have that but then they need to give it some more love.
Most pen and paper RPGs uses rather advanced mathematics to get the perfect balance, including with items. This assures that old content wont be useless after a while, for one thing do you count all effects in an item towards a point based system so that items at least have some balancing. They also stay at the same levelcap.
MMOs do it a different way and that means all older MMOs have balancing issues and that the gear from older zones is useless, EQ started that trend and most other MMOs including Wow is following after. It is not that strange of course, MMOs just been around for a bit over 10 years, PnP for 30.
Still, even if you have a point system that is rather exact you must sometimes pick out the old nerf bat. It is never fun to be nerfed but the only option is to get it right from the start and that is really hard.
Blizzard developers don't listen worth a shit, as they think all of their clients are teenage, bump face, monkeys with hormonal issues playing (they could be right).
Eventually, this game will sink itself. Why in the hell haven't they looked at Paladins, to me they are the ones that need the nerf stick?
seriously... did you even think before writing this down... rogues have NO utility in a raid
WARRIOR - can tank, Battle or commanding shout is always welcomed - wear plate, thus easier to heal
PALLY- healer, tank ,dps... plus they have blessings.
SHAMAN - again another hybrid.. but BL alone will make u more than worthy
PRIEST- heal . stam buff . you are ranged
DK - can tank. wear plate
LOCK - range dps. soulstone, portal..
HUNTER - range dps, tranq shot, traps..
MAGE -food, buff, spellsteal, range dps...
DRUID - battle rez... and there's just too much to type for this one.
Rogue- trick of trade....ummm......LOL. thats all.
Now tell me, why the hell would you bring a rogue in any raid if he is the most fragile melee dps, and doesnt bring anything of value to the raid except his dps?
soz for rant.
My old WoW guild was a 350 member raid guild, and one of the top 3 Horde raid guilds on the server, in progression. (We bounced between the second and third spot.) Know how many rogues we had?
TWO.
I think that pretty much says it all about a raid's "need".....for rogues.
Rogues, at least on my old server, were pretty much considered just a PvP class.
forget your last sentence about rogue being pvp class for a while, but saying that a raid doesn't need much of a rogue says quite much about. If blizzard is really thinking about adjusting all classes to the same level in DPS, they should make rogues worth the other classes.
it's not all about DPS in a raid. Survival, mobility and utility are quite important too. The thing is that Rogues lose on all field..
Agreed. I am not a fan of PvP itself, but I only hate it because it keeps spilling into the PvE part of the game.
I really don't want to play a healer that can do equal damage to a soldier class. Hell, I don't even want to be able to survive easily on my own. If I wanted to kill things fast, I would roll a DPS class.
Everyone being equal also means nobody is unique.
It also creates players who think they should spec their support class as a damage class. Que Lotro Lore-masters specced for damage so they can't stun, or cure wounds.
Oh well, here is hoping some company or another will release a pure PvE game.
seriously... did you even think before writing this down... rogues have NO utility in a raid
WARRIOR - can tank, Battle or commanding shout is always welcomed - wear plate, thus easier to heal
PALLY- healer, tank ,dps... plus they have blessings.
SHAMAN - again another hybrid.. but BL alone will make u more than worthy
PRIEST- heal . stam buff . you are ranged
DK - can tank. wear plate
LOCK - range dps. soulstone, portal..
HUNTER - range dps, tranq shot, traps..
MAGE -food, buff, spellsteal, range dps...
DRUID - battle rez... and there's just too much to type for this one.
Rogue- trick of trade....ummm......LOL. thats all.
Now tell me, why the hell would you bring a rogue in any raid if he is the most fragile melee dps, and doesnt bring anything of value to the raid except his dps?
soz for rant.
hurray old-quoting.
Rogues can: TotT, which is stupidly useful on, y'know, good rogues, which you clearly aren't.
+3% crit buff to the raid VIA Master Poisoner in assassin
The ever-awesome Kick, which many fights need to utilize, of which only Shaman have a better version, kinda, in wind shear.
+4% physical damage received VIA Savage Combat in Combat (Cannot stack with the one from assassin)
A never-ending resource pool for damage that requires 0 cooldowns or dead zones to help recharge it, or gimmicks, like -every single GD mana user in the game- 8 seconds lost DPS is 8 seconds lost dps, rogues never need to evocate.
You don't need uber-awesome utility in every slot. Multiple mages negate each other with their respective buffs, except for 1 or 2 (focus magic can be cast on multiple people). Most classes with utility cannibalize each other. Period. Multiple rogues stacking TotT wouldn't, and all other utility usually doesn't suffer in this regard.
They have niche utilities like area de-enrages with Anisthetic Poison, powerful CC when needed, can mortal strike enemies. Sure, at a DPS loss for the poisons, but it's fricken there.
Throw in the fact that they aren't squishy at all compared to any other class in the raid unless you're an idiot and stand in void zones, and the rogue is a very well rounded utility/DPS class. They bring nothing more, and nothing less, to the table than a mage, hunter, or warlock would, and die just as fast as the mage, hunter, and warlock if the boss decides they should die.
All this pointless posturing merely shows that rogues don't want to lose their precious, stupidly-high DPS that trumps the boards on most fights in ICC so far.
See: i49.tinypic.com/20uocn7.png and people.omnigroup.com/xmas/wow/Rotgut_DPS.png for comparison charts/etc.
Or, maybe you just want every raid to be 2 tanks, 5 healers, 2 "other" classes to support melee DPS, such as a fury war and enh shaman, and then 16 rogues.
That is simply an effect of poor raid management and raiders not being raid aware enough to be in a raid environment... If your raiding with a bunch of scrubs that can't move out when an AoE is happening or something bad is on the floor, then they have no business raiding in the first place. If raid "leaders" have to compensate for scrubs that can't follow directions and be raid aware by stacking with ranged and plate wearing melee, then you are raiding with the wrong people... This is not Blizzards fault.
No business raiding? So it is the player's fault then that they are using what works?
Oh, and it is not a reason it is an excuse.
I agree with you 100%! Guild wars uses this system, while it is technically not a MMO, to me it has one of the funniest and most balanced PVP system. When you join a PVP match everyone gets the same equipment, so you do not have people with way better gear then you, in the arena. Plus there is some Arena fights that limits what abilities you can use, it really makes it so it is based on the skill of the player.
Although to be honest what I am waiting for in a PVP game is full Collision detection for opposing factions, so you can not run through tanks or any other class. With that very limited CC, to me crowd control is a very pathetic way to attempt to add balance to classes. It is not fun for the person that just gets to watch his character die as he is constantly stunned. If ever a company makes a game like this, I would never play any of the MMOs out right now again. Since I hate unlimited CC in a PVP setting.
As much as I like WoW, this is another huge problem in my opinion: The community is basically competing against itself instead of working together. I've never heard of someone complaining that someone else in thier group is doing a good job. WTF is up with that shit?
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Oh it's all about the boards now. See, I thought it was about working together with a group to accomplish goals. Not who has the highest DPS. Guess I'm a little old-fashioned.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
EVERY class has got the bad end of the stick a time or two.. get over it... my rogue will still pull 8k DPS and i will pwn noobs in pvp if you just always going with what is OP your asking to get shot down...
Lvl 75 Black Mage/White Mage ffxi
Lvl 80 Druid WoW
Lvl 34 Ranger Aion
If that is the case you should have no problem with the latest changes.
Nerfing prot warriors is fucking retarded
One thing I truly hate about the classes is, basically ONE spec is viable for some classes in PvP. For Warriors, it was mainly Arms. Occasionally you'd see a Fury but compared to Arms they're DPS wasn't was good. So when I found a decent Prot spec, I rejoiced. Mainly cause I could SURVIVE and still deal decent damage. Warriors get virtually no healing outside of maybe Enraged Regen, pots and the occasional bandages. So a spec that doubles survival rate.. sign my ass up! I love prot on my warrior. They nerf it, I'll just roll another class.
looks more like rogue's conplaining here. Don't worry you can still stealth around like a chicken.
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Balancing is quite simple,you either have the most dps or the most spike damage.If you have the most dps or the most spike dmg then you should have the weakest defense gear in the game.If the ystill have not figured it out by now,they will NEVER get it right.
The problem however is devs that play the game,the people in charge may be influenced ,you have to sometimes wonder if game changes especially after all these years are for the best of the game,or some selfish reason.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.