Movingtarget.. it looks liek you have copied some of my test from another thread and mixed it in. It's kind of hard to understand what you are asking for... but if you are asking if you can follow those procedures and get your money back the answer is YES. I have done it personally.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Movingtarget.. it looks liek you have copied some of my test from another thread and mixed it in. It's kind of hard to understand what you are asking for... but if you are asking if you can follow those procedures and get your money back the answer is YES. I have done it personally.
Yeah.. he pretty much copied some of it word for word there. I almost thought it was YOU!
Thats where the line kind of blurs. Its like, if you preorder 6 games from 6 different vendors to get the special item, and then once you have all the special item codes, you cancel all of your preorders but 1... you shouldn't get those special items right? If you have the items already, that you can trade or sell online (and people really do that kind of stuff) then technically you've received an item under the condition that you are purchasing the game.
If you pre ordered, and you're promised you get in early beta access.. and you get in early beta access, use the access continuously and then don't buy the game after using whatever codes they gave you to get in, then by definition of fairness, they should be able to charge you for the game when it releases. You said they didn't produce a product, yet you've been playing the product and didn't like it. Its very different then buying a chair in a store and it not being delivered to your house in 4 weeks. You don't get a chair prototype to sit on while the other is being made. You can argue the beta of the game wasn't the finished product... but people will come back and argue that no MMO is a finished product.
Thats ultimately why you don't pay for a beta, which is really what this was. Its also what happened with the lifetime subs for CO and STO.. and I've been hearing a lot of mixed things about that as well... not to mention those threads about players wanting refunds of their lifetime sub because champions didn't provide any lasting appeal. I'm not saying its common, but its been an observation over the past many months.
We can quite literally go round and round on this subject all day, so lets just agree that -- because this game isn't in the condition of what people were expecting, they don't want to pay for it.
No.. it's not like that at all. Your analogies are not even close to being applicable. Let's take them one at a time:
1. Preorder 6 times to get codes and then cancel. - OK.. then all the company has to do is delete the codes... Or as most have started doing now.. link the codes to the released product. Real easy to police. You return.. your code is gone. Item codes are useless until release as character wipes happen... I'm pretty sure that buying and selling the codes on Ebay would be against the TOS of most games so buyer beware...
2. You get beta access to a game, don't like it... and cancel.- My answer would depend on what the publisher said. In Mortal Online's case they SPECIFICALLY stated that you were not buying Beta Access. You were buying Mortal Online. Mortal Online hasn't released yet... thus no product has been received. Suppose they decided to delay until 2015? If companies want to charge you for beta access that's a different story. That's buying beta access... so if that's not the case and the company goes out of it's way to SAY you aren't buying beta access then there should be no problem cancelling on a product that was never received.
3. Purchasing a Lifetime Subscription to a game and regreting it. Well.. if you purchased a Lifetime Sub and cancelled before useing it that should be fine. After you start to use it, that's a different story. BTW this isn;t in any way shape or form related to the Mortal Online situation so I'm not sure why ti was mentioned.
Anyhow.. the REALITY of the situation is as I describe it... thus the people getting their money back. Everyone is entitlied to their own opinions, but it's clear what side reality is on.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
oh and another thing about their return policy if you go to the return policy on the MO shop it states "Note that this policy is not all inclusive. No reimbursement requests are guaranteed to be fulfilled. The general rule is that we must be able to verify that your loss should not have occurred during normal game play." However the game isnt even out yet so there is no "normal game play" to it.
oh and another thing about their return policy if you go to the return policy on the MO shop it states "Note that this policy is not all inclusive. No reimbursement requests are guaranteed to be fulfilled. The general rule is that we must be able to verify that your loss should not have occurred during normal game play." However the game isnt even out yet so there is no "normal game play" to it.
Since the game is not out yet, that means you can get a refund.
Thats where the line kind of blurs. Its like, if you preorder 6 games from 6 different vendors to get the special item, and then once you have all the special item codes, you cancel all of your preorders but 1... you shouldn't get those special items right? If you have the items already, that you can trade or sell online (and people really do that kind of stuff) then technically you've received an item under the condition that you are purchasing the game.
If you pre ordered, and you're promised you get in early beta access.. and you get in early beta access, use the access continuously and then don't buy the game after using whatever codes they gave you to get in, then by definition of fairness, they should be able to charge you for the game when it releases. You said they didn't produce a product, yet you've been playing the product and didn't like it. Its very different then buying a chair in a store and it not being delivered to your house in 4 weeks. You don't get a chair prototype to sit on while the other is being made. You can argue the beta of the game wasn't the finished product... but people will come back and argue that no MMO is a finished product.
Thats ultimately why you don't pay for a beta, which is really what this was. Its also what happened with the lifetime subs for CO and STO.. and I've been hearing a lot of mixed things about that as well... not to mention those threads about players wanting refunds of their lifetime sub because champions didn't provide any lasting appeal. I'm not saying its common, but its been an observation over the past many months.
We can quite literally go round and round on this subject all day, so lets just agree that -- because this game isn't in the condition of what people were expecting, they don't want to pay for it.
No.. it's not like that at all. Your analogies are not even close to being applicable. Let's take them one at a time:
1. Preorder 6 times to get codes and then cancel. - OK.. then all the company has to do is delete the codes... Or as most have started doing now.. link the codes to the released product. Real easy to police. You return.. your code is gone. Item codes are useless until release as character wipes happen... I'm pretty sure that buying and selling the codes on Ebay would be against the TOS of most games so buyer beware...
2. You get beta access to a game, don't like it... and cancel.- My answer would depend on what the publisher said. In Mortal Online's case they SPECIFICALLY stated that you were not buying Beta Access. You were buying Mortal Online. Mortal Online hasn't released yet... thus no product has been received. Suppose they decided to delay until 2015? If companies want to charge you for beta access that's a different story. That's buying beta access... so if that's not the case and the company goes out of it's way to SAY you aren't buying beta access then there should be no problem cancelling on a product that was never received.
3. Purchasing a Lifetime Subscription to a game and regreting it. Well.. if you purchased a Lifetime Sub and cancelled before useing it that should be fine. After you start to use it, that's a different story. BTW this isn;t in any way shape or form related to the Mortal Online situation so I'm not sure why ti was mentioned.
Anyhow.. the REALITY of the situation is as I describe it... thus the people getting their money back. Everyone is entitlied to their own opinions, but it's clear what side reality is on.
1) yes selling codes is against TOS, so's selling accounts, people still do it. When they drop a code in a preorder box, or send a randomly generated code out, it isn't linked to anything. Only recently when preordering on steam or D2D have they actually linked any access codes to your released game. Regardless, the question wasn't, "how do we stop this travesty" it was a statement, that in all fairness, if you preorder something strictly comes with a promotional item that you receive on purchase, and then you end up using the item, but don't purchase, then to me... that doesn't seem fair to the company. On the flipside, it works the same way, had the company taken your money, but not provide you with any communication or product to speak of, then that wouldn't be fair to you.
Thats why the situation is ridiculous in the first place... the reality is, this time theres a law in place... a technicality if you will, that they put in place so suckers don't lose their money. --2) A good question now would be, for all of those that are receiving the discs of mortal online, do they no longer get to refund their product? Now that they have something substantial, does that make the difference eventhough the game isn't launched. Just 10 or so posts back everyone was up in arms about not getting a disc.. had they sent one previously, would this conversation still be going on? I think it would be, but for different reasons. You may not have bought the game for beta access... but you knew you were getting it with the purchase of the game. Would you have preordered it so soon if no beta had been offered? Honestly most people wouldn't have. I remember seeing the posts on these forums when the news was posted... the talk wasn't about the game releasing, it was about when they were getting in beta. I see some familiar faces in here too
And those are just from a couple minutes using the search feature...
3)The lifetime subscriptions for CO were bought by some to get early access to STO... Those that realized the beta wasn't all that it was cracked up to be wanted a refund of the lifetime subs.. thats the only reason I brought it up... its purchasing something ahead of time, thinking you're getting one thing, but realizing its not what you expected.
Its apparent that those that are getting their money back DON'T like the game. Noone here has said... "This game is so great, but y'know.. they said they were going to release last month, and they didn't.. so I'm going to have to ask for my money back." It makes more sense to put 2 and 2 together -- meaning its not hard to see that you just don't want to pay for a bad decision. I get that.
Anyways, I really hope everyones learned a lesson or two about preorders now... I also hope it all works out with those chargebacks.
Regardless, the question wasn't, "how do we stop this travesty" it was a statement, that in all fairness, if you preorder something strictly comes with a promotional item that you receive on purchase, and then you end up using the item, but don't purchase, then to me... that doesn't seem fair to the company. As I said above... you can't use the codes/items until release. At that point you aren't getting your money back. For your example where someone ordered 6 codes and cancelled 5 of them or whatever.. the company should simply delete the codes. if they were bought on EBay too bad for the buyer.. I really don't see the issue here at all or how it's not fair to the company... they have the right to just stop the code from working....No payee-no playee On the flipside, it works the same way, had the company taken your money, but not provide you with any communication or product to speak of, then that wouldn't be fair to you. Which is exactly what happened not a single Email was sent to my address in over 6 months... not one notice telling me about a delay. I have to wade through forums and find things on reply #321 of a thread saying the game was delayed. Finally they posted delays on their news page, but that's still making ME come to look for info. They have my contact info from the sale.. they sent me a receipt... they should have sent me an Email for each and every delay. They didn't even respond to my attempts at contacting them. Thats why the situation is ridiculous in the first place... the reality is, this time theres a law in place... a technicality if you will, that they put in place so suckers don't lose their money. It's not a techicality.. it's a basic foundation of doing business. Otherwise people could take your money and never deliver a product and just tell you it's being worked on forever. As I said.. if 6 months isn't long enough.. how long should a company keep your money without allowing you to cancel? BTW it's against EU law to charge and not deliver a product within 30 days. That's reality. 2) A good question now would be, for all of those that are receiving the discs of mortal online, do they no longer get to refund their product? Now that they have something substantial, does that make the difference eventhough the game isn't launched. If they TOLD Starvault they were cancelling before SV sent them then SV should have to pay to get the boxes back if they so choose (doubt it). If they DIDN'T tell SV they were cancelling and got the box then the customer should have to pay to return the box and shouldn't get the refund until the company got the box. Since the box only contained a beta version of the game and the actual product is still pending there should still be no problem with a cancellation (provided they retutn the box) Just 10 or so posts back everyone was up in arms about not getting a disc.. had they sent one previously, would this conversation still be going on? I think it would be, but for different reasons. You may not have bought the game for beta access... but you knew you were getting it with the purchase of the game. Would you have preordered it so soon if no beta had been offered? As I have stated many times (this will be the last) yes I would have. I did it because the SV developers said that this was the only way to guarantee that you could play on day 1. I stayed up until 3AM waiting for the store to open and process everything. When Darkfall released a large portion of players could NOT buy the game and start playing for the first few weeks. Although (again) this line of discussion is meaningless as the devs specificly and quite clearly stated that they were NOT selling beta access in any way shape or form. If they weren't selling it.. I couldn't buy it... Its apparent that those that are getting their money back DON'T like the game. I don't know if I would like the game. I tested for a whole 10 minutes in 6 months(or maaaybe 15..).. the majority of that was in Sausage Lake. I don't like the company, their business practices, what I feel are their misleading statements, and their horrid communication. It makes more sense to put 2 and 2 together -- meaning its not hard to see that you just don't want to pay for a bad decision. I get that. Yet you still put the burden on the consumer's "bad decision".... No.. these rules are in place to protect consumers against bad BUSINESS practices.. not a consumers "bad decisions" Anyways, I really hope everyones learned a lesson or two about preorders now... I also hope it all works out with those chargebacks. Already has
See above.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
thanks for the "warning" but seriously, I think its just MO hate.
Pre-ordering is a risk you take, with ANY game. You have to do your homework first, and even then you might be disappointed. No one forces you to pre-order, and when you do you have to be aware of what could happen.
I think pre-orders are a bad ideas, for pretty much any game. Thats why I usually wait for release. Now if some people are too impatient, do you think they need to be warned ? Its entirely their money, their decision, their fault.
In short, if you pre-order you know the risk you are taking, and then you have no right to complain afterward.
thanks for the "warning" but seriously, I think its just MO hate.
Pre-ordering is a risk you take, with ANY game. You have to do your homework first, and even then you might be disappointed. No one forces you to pre-order, and when you do you have to be aware of what could happen.
I think pre-orders are a bad ideas, for pretty much any game. Thats why I usually wait for release. Now if some people are too impatient, do you think they need to be warned ? Its entirely their money, their decision, their fault.
In short, if you pre-order you know the risk you are taking, and then you have no right to complain afterward.
People can get refunds for a preorder, even Steam gives refunds before the game actually launches.
People can get refunds for a preorder, even Steam gives refunds before the game actually launches.
Its a steam policy, doesn't mean other games have to follow it. I'm pretty sure starvault has a "no-refund" policy .
If you buy something saying "no refund" and then bitch and moan because you want a refund...your fault.
Please read the other threads.. it has been shown that the "no refund" policy is against EU law and US regulations. Also.. the "policy" was not something you had to click on to buy the game buy was a clicky stuck on the side of the screen.
These regulations are there to protect the consumer against illegal business practices such as charging a customer and not delivering a product 6 months later...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Regardless, the question wasn't, "how do we stop this travesty" it was a statement, that in all fairness, if you preorder something strictly comes with a promotional item that you receive on purchase, and then you end up using the item, but don't purchase, then to me... that doesn't seem fair to the company. As I said above... you can't use the codes/items until release. At that point you aren't getting your money back. For your example where someone ordered 6 codes and cancelled 5 of them or whatever.. the company should simply delete the codes. if they were bought on EBay too bad for the buyer.. I really don't see the issue here at all or how it's not fair to the company... they have the right to just stop the code from working....No payee-no playee On the flipside, it works the same way, had the company taken your money, but not provide you with any communication or product to speak of, then that wouldn't be fair to you. Which is exactly what happened not a single Email was sent to my address in over 6 months... not one notice telling me about a delay. I have to wade through forums and find things on reply #321 of a thread saying the game was delayed. Finally they posted delays on their news page, but that's still making ME come to look for info. They have my contact info from the sale.. they sent me a receipt... they should have sent me an Email for each and every delay. They didn't even respond to my attempts at contacting them. Thats why the situation is ridiculous in the first place... the reality is, this time theres a law in place... a technicality if you will, that they put in place so suckers don't lose their money. It's not a techicality.. it's a basic foundation of doing business. Otherwise people could take your money and never deliver a product and just tell you it's being worked on forever. As I said.. if 6 months isn't long enough.. how long should a company keep your money without allowing you to cancel? BTW it's against EU law to charge and not deliver a product within 30 days. That's reality. 2) A good question now would be, for all of those that are receiving the discs of mortal online, do they no longer get to refund their product? Now that they have something substantial, does that make the difference eventhough the game isn't launched. If they TOLD Starvault they were cancelling before SV sent them then SV should have to pay to get the boxes back if they so choose (doubt it). If they DIDN'T tell SV they were cancelling and got the box then the customer should have to pay to return the box and shouldn't get the refund until the company got the box. Since the box only contained a beta version of the game and the actual product is still pending there should still be no problem with a cancellation (provided they retutn the box) Just 10 or so posts back everyone was up in arms about not getting a disc.. had they sent one previously, would this conversation still be going on? I think it would be, but for different reasons. You may not have bought the game for beta access... but you knew you were getting it with the purchase of the game. Would you have preordered it so soon if no beta had been offered? As I have stated many times (this will be the last) yes I would have. I did it because the SV developers said that this was the only way to guarantee that you could play on day 1. I stayed up until 3AM waiting for the store to open and process everything. When Darkfall released a large portion of players could NOT buy the game and start playing for the first few weeks. Although (again) this line of discussion is meaningless as the devs specificly and quite clearly stated that they were NOT selling beta access in any way shape or form. If they weren't selling it.. I couldn't buy it... Its apparent that those that are getting their money back DON'T like the game. I don't know if I would like the game. I tested for a whole 10 minutes in 6 months(or maaaybe 15..).. the majority of that was in Sausage Lake. I don't like the company, their business practices, what I feel are their misleading statements, and their horrid communication. It makes more sense to put 2 and 2 together -- meaning its not hard to see that you just don't want to pay for a bad decision. I get that. Yet you still put the burden on the consumer's "bad decision".... No.. these rules are in place to protect consumers against bad BUSINESS practices.. not a consumers "bad decisions" Anyways, I really hope everyones learned a lesson or two about preorders now... I also hope it all works out with those chargebacks. Already has
See above.
I tried to explain it the first time, but I don't think you understood about the beta codes... companies can't just cancel codes if they don't know what codes to cancel. If you prepurchase something and a code comes in a box, the company doesn't know what code is in the box that was just given out. They can't just cancel beta codes either just because they can't link up the e-mail that bought the game with the e-mail address thats registered to play the game. I don't think you've pre-ordered very many games because - like i said, until recently with steam do they actually link codes with your specific account. A company like SV or a company like DF most likely wouldn't have the resources like a AAA company would in that respect.
3) I don't know how much about the law you really know, but in software cases, including media, once the product is open or used, you can no longer return in in 99% of the cases. Also... "no refunds" is actually legal, believe it or not. When you agree to a no refunds policy..... you don't get refunds. Also, in most states, when it says "by clicking *X* you agree to our terms of use policy" that means you agree to it.. whether or not you read it or didn't. When I went to the site to "purchase" the game, I checked to see what their policy was. Of course I didn't buy the game.. but it definitely had Terms and Conditions to the purchase. Just because you didn't read them doesn't mean they don't apply to you.
In many cases there are times when people can defraud you, by taking your money and not giving you a product. This isn't one of those times because you were playing the product. Whether you logged in for 10 minutes or 30 minutes, you saw that there was a product... and at the end of the month, it will be a final version of the product.
Its like.. you see on the advertisements now battlefield heroes. When that game was in beta, they allowed you to purchase items in the item shops beforehand... had you bought those items, when the game went live you would still have access to those items. Had I purchased the items but then decided I didn't like them before it went live, should I have gotten my money back? If they postponed the launch 30 days? 60 days? If I could play the game, see where my money went, ... if I decided because the game was delayed that I wanted my money back, should I have gotten it back?
Its rather a thin line between what these companies should be able to get away with and what they shouldn't. In all honesty I would've probably tried to get my money back too had I preordered it... and I have preordered games... never in full.... and then moved my money to another preorder if I didn't like the game in beta. Never before have I pulled my money from a game that I liked though... and I think thats what really makes the difference between those that are pulling their money and those that aren't.
I tried to explain it the first time, but I don't think you understood about the beta codes... companies can't just cancel codes if they don't know what codes to cancel. If you prepurchase something and a code comes in a box, the company doesn't know what code is in the box that was just given out. They can't just cancel beta codes either just because they can't link up the e-mail that bought the game with the e-mail address thats registered to play the game. I don't think you've pre-ordered very many games because - like i said, until recently with steam do they actually link codes with your specific account. A company like SV or a company like DF most likely wouldn't have the resources like a AAA company would in that respect.
3) I don't know how much about the law you really know, but in software cases, including media, once the product is open or used, you can no longer return in in 99% of the cases. Also... "no refunds" is actually legal, believe it or not. When you agree to a no refunds policy..... you don't get refunds. Also, in most states, when it says "by clicking *X* you agree to our terms of use policy" that means you agree to it.. whether or not you read it or didn't. When I went to the site to "purchase" the game, I checked to see what their policy was. Of course I didn't buy the game.. but it definitely had Terms and Conditions to the purchase. Just because you didn't read them doesn't mean they don't apply to you.
In many cases there are times when people can defraud you, by taking your money and not giving you a product. This isn't one of those times because you were playing the product. Whether you logged in for 10 minutes or 30 minutes, you saw that there was a product... and at the end of the month, it will be a final version of the product.
Its like.. you see on the advertisements now battlefield heroes. When that game was in beta, they allowed you to purchase items in the item shops beforehand... had you bought those items, when the game went live you would still have access to those items. Had I purchased the items but then decided I didn't like them before it went live, should I have gotten my money back? If they postponed the launch 30 days? 60 days? If I could play the game, see where my money went, ... if I decided because the game was delayed that I wanted my money back, should I have gotten it back?
Its rather a thin line between what these companies should be able to get away with and what they shouldn't. In all honesty I would've probably tried to get my money back too had I preordered it... and I have preordered games... never in full.... and then moved my money to another preorder if I didn't like the game in beta. Never before have I pulled my money from a game that I liked though... and I think thats what really makes the difference between those that are pulling their money and those that aren't.
I really suggest you learn the law there Mr. Internet Lawyer since you are totally incorrect about the "no refunds" policy and are looking like a little kid like most of the MO supporters on here.
How about digging out your credit card agreement and reading it or mommies if necessary and see what is said about non-delivery of a product. How about checking the Uniform Commercial Code about non-delivery of a contracted product, how about reading what has been posted about EU law about non-delivery. How about learning about the requirements clauses that are required to be followed by all companies that uilize Master Card and VISA's services.
I could go on forever about how wrong you are but you know what, I really get tired of trying to explain facts to children.
Oh and your strawman argument example about returning open software??? That is a store policy NOT A STATE LAW. In fact Mr. Law expert do you even know what the state law say in Louisiana is regarding shrink wrap agreements is? How about Virginia, Colorado? Let me guess, not a chance in hell.
"If you were as smart as you think you are, you would realize that you are an idiot"
The reply above me.. while a bit harsh.. was spot on. There is a REASON we got our money back.. it's because there are laws and regulations that say so. Not because they decide to do so out of the goodness of their hearts. As he said.. you are dead wrong on the Refunds issue.. and I have previously provided the EU regulations applicable here and won't do so again.
You also continue to equate an unfinished beta product with a store bought boxed copy of software that a person opens and uses. At this point I would just be telling you the same information yet again so I leave you to your own devices. Let's just say I, and most of our society, are happy that there are laws and regulations that define how a company can and cannot act. It is the company that has run afoul of those regulations, not the customers and they should not be belittled for holding the company to the minimum of acceptable business practices... such as charging and not delivering a product after 6 months...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I tried to explain it the first time, but I don't think you understood about the beta codes... companies can't just cancel codes if they don't know what codes to cancel. If you prepurchase something and a code comes in a box, the company doesn't know what code is in the box that was just given out. They can't just cancel beta codes either just because they can't link up the e-mail that bought the game with the e-mail address thats registered to play the game. I don't think you've pre-ordered very many games because - like i said, until recently with steam do they actually link codes with your specific account. A company like SV or a company like DF most likely wouldn't have the resources like a AAA company would in that respect.
3) I don't know how much about the law you really know, but in software cases, including media, once the product is open or used, you can no longer return in in 99% of the cases. Also... "no refunds" is actually legal, believe it or not. When you agree to a no refunds policy..... you don't get refunds. Also, in most states, when it says "by clicking *X* you agree to our terms of use policy" that means you agree to it.. whether or not you read it or didn't. When I went to the site to "purchase" the game, I checked to see what their policy was. Of course I didn't buy the game.. but it definitely had Terms and Conditions to the purchase. Just because you didn't read them doesn't mean they don't apply to you.
In many cases there are times when people can defraud you, by taking your money and not giving you a product. This isn't one of those times because you were playing the product. Whether you logged in for 10 minutes or 30 minutes, you saw that there was a product... and at the end of the month, it will be a final version of the product.
Its like.. you see on the advertisements now battlefield heroes. When that game was in beta, they allowed you to purchase items in the item shops beforehand... had you bought those items, when the game went live you would still have access to those items. Had I purchased the items but then decided I didn't like them before it went live, should I have gotten my money back? If they postponed the launch 30 days? 60 days? If I could play the game, see where my money went, ... if I decided because the game was delayed that I wanted my money back, should I have gotten it back?
Its rather a thin line between what these companies should be able to get away with and what they shouldn't. In all honesty I would've probably tried to get my money back too had I preordered it... and I have preordered games... never in full.... and then moved my money to another preorder if I didn't like the game in beta. Never before have I pulled my money from a game that I liked though... and I think thats what really makes the difference between those that are pulling their money and those that aren't.
I really suggest you learn the law there Mr. Internet Lawyer since you are totally incorrect about the "no refunds" policy and are looking like a little kid like most of the MO supporters on here.
How about digging out your credit card agreement and reading it or mommies if necessary and see what is said about non-delivery of a product. How about checking the Uniform Commercial Code about non-delivery of a contracted product, how about reading what has been posted about EU law about non-delivery. How about learning about the requirements clauses that are required to be followed by all companies that uilize Master Card and VISA's services.
I could go on forever about how wrong you are but you know what, I really get tired of trying to explain facts to children.
Oh and your strawman argument example about returning open software??? That is a store policy NOT A STATE LAW. In fact Mr. Law expert do you even know what the state law say in Louisiana is regarding shrink wrap agreements is? How about Virginia, Colorado? Let me guess, not a chance in hell.
Where exactly did I say that returning open software was a state law? Its dependent on policy.. in all counts, which, wow, actually was proving the point I was making that the policy dictates how items are accepted for return. I don't know many companies that accept returned software... why would I ever suggest that the state would require a privately owned company to? (which is different completely different then non-delivery of items) As for the UCC, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is law everywhere where software is concerned (see UCC 2b) though it isn't widely accepted, it hints to changes being made in the "fairness" of software and consumer rights. Not that is matters at this point, but I just thought it was interesting you brought up virginias shrink wrap agreements.
Mr. high and mighty, if you had read, you'd understand theres a difference between what I said has happened and should happen. I never said anything about the facts of the law.. in fact I said that they *could* get a refund though for all intensive purposes I didn't think it was fair for SV. Of course, you would have to know how to read to see that what I was saying was mainly opinion. I think most people can understand the difference between the words "should" and "do" but.. then again, it looks like I was wrong after all.
Thanks for pointing that out though.
I realized really at this point I'm arguing just for the sake of arguing... and honestly I think I've made my point that I think that the refunds.. though warranted, is distasteful in my opinion, and I think I've tried to explain why sufficiently. The only reason I'm keeping the rest of the post above is because I did take the time to write it... and the guy above slapshot is really just kind of a jerk.
I realized really at this point I'm arguing just for the sake of arguing... and honestly I think I've made my point that I think that the refunds.. though warranted, is distasteful in my opinion, and I think I've tried to explain why sufficiently. The only reason I'm keeping the rest of the post above is because I did take the time to write it... and the guy above slapshot is really just kind of a jerk.
I realized really at this point I'm arguing just for the sake of arguing... and honestly I think I've made my point that I think that the refunds.. though warranted, is distasteful in my opinion, and I think I've tried to explain why sufficiently. The only reason I'm keeping the rest of the post above is because I did take the time to write it... and the guy above slapshot is really just kind of a jerk.
Ok, ttyl then I guess.
Naw Makedweasel not a jerk just a realist. You tend to become one with age and real life experience.
I am sick and tired of the internet kiddies spouting falsehoods and tend to come off a bit harsh, well only one thing I can say to those that are easily offended. Grow some and get some thicker skin because life won't treat you with kid gloves and will screw you over any chance it gets just like these companies are doing.
"If you were as smart as you think you are, you would realize that you are an idiot"
Naw Makedweasel not a jerk just a realist. You tend to become one with age and real life experience. I am sick and tired of the internet kiddies spouting falsehoods and tend to come off a bit harsh, well only one thing I can say to those that are easily offended. Grow some and get some thicker skin because life won't treat you with kid gloves and will screw you over any chance it gets just like these companies are doing.
Let me add to the argument. The company has to produce what a customer likes, they just can't release an incomplete game and then have all of their fans telling everyone that "its the best MMO ever made!" because once everyone sees how bad it is right now, people will not play past the first month.
Or we will just continue playing after first month? I will, and I am sure there are more to follow me. Every game drop subs aftewr first month of course. As long as they continue developing it it will be fine!
Or we will just continue playing after first month? I will, and I am sure there are more to follow me. Every game drop subs aftewr first month of course. As long as they continue developing it it will be fine!
Not an easy proposition if your box sales have to cover bandwith for those users, and if they don't resub you just bought yourself a month of bandwith that nobody's going to use.
Do this for a few months, and you're out of business. That's why companies need to learn how to develop a game properly, ESPECIALLY indy companies, because there is no big publisher holding purse strings to keep the game afloat.
I realized really at this point I'm arguing just for the sake of arguing... and honestly I think I've made my point that I think that the refunds.. though warranted, is distasteful in my opinion, and I think I've tried to explain why sufficiently. The only reason I'm keeping the rest of the post above is because I did take the time to write it... and the guy above slapshot is really just kind of a jerk.
Ok, ttyl then I guess.
Naw Makedweasel not a jerk just a realist. You tend to become one with age and real life experience.
I am sick and tired of the internet kiddies spouting falsehoods and tend to come off a bit harsh, well only one thing I can say to those that are easily offended. Grow some and get some thicker skin because life won't treat you with kid gloves and will screw you over any chance it gets just like these companies are doing.
OHHhh you're a realist, thats interesting, because what you said was actually very general and you just pointed your finger rather then actually explaining your point. In the age of internet anonymity where any idiot with a propeller hat can look up UCC regulations, you didn't actually point out anything other then a retail return policy. Sorry to burst your bubble, but my opinions are my own, and sadly, my opinions trump yours, so when you go back through and read all my posts, if you need me to point out in bright flashy colors (so that you won't miss them this time) what an opinion is and what a fact is (that could be misconstrued as a "falsehood") then let me know.
Mccoy, as stated before, I think you know my stand on the issue, the only reason people are wanting a refund is because they didn't like the game, and my OPINION stands firm in the belief that had the game turned out better when they played it in BETA, that this conversation would be very different. It seems the principle only matters when it just so happens to work in your favor. Thats kind of why theres not much left to say in that aspect of the conversation.
Originally posted by maskedweasel Mccoy, as stated before, I think you know my stand on the issue, the only reason people are wanting a refund is because they didn't like the game, and my OPINION stands firm in the belief that had the game turned out better when they played it in BETA, that this conversation would be very different. It seems the principle only matters when it just so happens to work in your favor. Thats kind of why theres not much left to say in that aspect of the conversation.
I agree with you about that. Also, taking 5 months longer than it was suppose to for the boxes to get shipped pushed it farther along.
Originally posted by maskedweasel Mccoy, as stated before, I think you know my stand on the issue, the only reason people are wanting a refund is because they didn't like the game, and my OPINION stands firm in the belief that had the game turned out better when they played it in BETA, that this conversation would be very different. It seems the principle only matters when it just so happens to work in your favor. Thats kind of why theres not much left to say in that aspect of the conversation.
I agree with you about that. Also, taking 5 months longer than it was suppose to for the boxes to get shipped pushed it farther along.
Comments
Movingtarget.. it looks liek you have copied some of my test from another thread and mixed it in. It's kind of hard to understand what you are asking for... but if you are asking if you can follow those procedures and get your money back the answer is YES. I have done it personally.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Yeah.. he pretty much copied some of it word for word there. I almost thought it was YOU!
No.. it's not like that at all. Your analogies are not even close to being applicable. Let's take them one at a time:
1. Preorder 6 times to get codes and then cancel. - OK.. then all the company has to do is delete the codes... Or as most have started doing now.. link the codes to the released product. Real easy to police. You return.. your code is gone. Item codes are useless until release as character wipes happen... I'm pretty sure that buying and selling the codes on Ebay would be against the TOS of most games so buyer beware...
2. You get beta access to a game, don't like it... and cancel.- My answer would depend on what the publisher said. In Mortal Online's case they SPECIFICALLY stated that you were not buying Beta Access. You were buying Mortal Online. Mortal Online hasn't released yet... thus no product has been received. Suppose they decided to delay until 2015? If companies want to charge you for beta access that's a different story. That's buying beta access... so if that's not the case and the company goes out of it's way to SAY you aren't buying beta access then there should be no problem cancelling on a product that was never received.
3. Purchasing a Lifetime Subscription to a game and regreting it. Well.. if you purchased a Lifetime Sub and cancelled before useing it that should be fine. After you start to use it, that's a different story. BTW this isn;t in any way shape or form related to the Mortal Online situation so I'm not sure why ti was mentioned.
Anyhow.. the REALITY of the situation is as I describe it... thus the people getting their money back. Everyone is entitlied to their own opinions, but it's clear what side reality is on.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
oh and another thing about their return policy if you go to the return policy on the MO shop it states "Note that this policy is not all inclusive. No reimbursement requests are guaranteed to be fulfilled. The general rule is that we must be able to verify that your loss should not have occurred during normal game play." However the game isnt even out yet so there is no "normal game play" to it.
Since the game is not out yet, that means you can get a refund.
No.. it's not like that at all. Your analogies are not even close to being applicable. Let's take them one at a time:
1. Preorder 6 times to get codes and then cancel. - OK.. then all the company has to do is delete the codes... Or as most have started doing now.. link the codes to the released product. Real easy to police. You return.. your code is gone. Item codes are useless until release as character wipes happen... I'm pretty sure that buying and selling the codes on Ebay would be against the TOS of most games so buyer beware...
2. You get beta access to a game, don't like it... and cancel.- My answer would depend on what the publisher said. In Mortal Online's case they SPECIFICALLY stated that you were not buying Beta Access. You were buying Mortal Online. Mortal Online hasn't released yet... thus no product has been received. Suppose they decided to delay until 2015? If companies want to charge you for beta access that's a different story. That's buying beta access... so if that's not the case and the company goes out of it's way to SAY you aren't buying beta access then there should be no problem cancelling on a product that was never received.
3. Purchasing a Lifetime Subscription to a game and regreting it. Well.. if you purchased a Lifetime Sub and cancelled before useing it that should be fine. After you start to use it, that's a different story. BTW this isn;t in any way shape or form related to the Mortal Online situation so I'm not sure why ti was mentioned.
Anyhow.. the REALITY of the situation is as I describe it... thus the people getting their money back. Everyone is entitlied to their own opinions, but it's clear what side reality is on.
1) yes selling codes is against TOS, so's selling accounts, people still do it. When they drop a code in a preorder box, or send a randomly generated code out, it isn't linked to anything. Only recently when preordering on steam or D2D have they actually linked any access codes to your released game. Regardless, the question wasn't, "how do we stop this travesty" it was a statement, that in all fairness, if you preorder something strictly comes with a promotional item that you receive on purchase, and then you end up using the item, but don't purchase, then to me... that doesn't seem fair to the company. On the flipside, it works the same way, had the company taken your money, but not provide you with any communication or product to speak of, then that wouldn't be fair to you.
Thats why the situation is ridiculous in the first place... the reality is, this time theres a law in place... a technicality if you will, that they put in place so suckers don't lose their money. --2) A good question now would be, for all of those that are receiving the discs of mortal online, do they no longer get to refund their product? Now that they have something substantial, does that make the difference eventhough the game isn't launched. Just 10 or so posts back everyone was up in arms about not getting a disc.. had they sent one previously, would this conversation still be going on? I think it would be, but for different reasons. You may not have bought the game for beta access... but you knew you were getting it with the purchase of the game. Would you have preordered it so soon if no beta had been offered? Honestly most people wouldn't have. I remember seeing the posts on these forums when the news was posted... the talk wasn't about the game releasing, it was about when they were getting in beta. I see some familiar faces in here too
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/243677/Please-think-about-it-before-you-pay-them.html
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/243613/Doh-guess-im-playing-the-Beta-afterall.html
And those are just from a couple minutes using the search feature...
3)The lifetime subscriptions for CO were bought by some to get early access to STO... Those that realized the beta wasn't all that it was cracked up to be wanted a refund of the lifetime subs.. thats the only reason I brought it up... its purchasing something ahead of time, thinking you're getting one thing, but realizing its not what you expected.
Its apparent that those that are getting their money back DON'T like the game. Noone here has said... "This game is so great, but y'know.. they said they were going to release last month, and they didn't.. so I'm going to have to ask for my money back." It makes more sense to put 2 and 2 together -- meaning its not hard to see that you just don't want to pay for a bad decision. I get that.
Anyways, I really hope everyones learned a lesson or two about preorders now... I also hope it all works out with those chargebacks.
See above.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
thanks for the "warning" but seriously, I think its just MO hate.
Pre-ordering is a risk you take, with ANY game. You have to do your homework first, and even then you might be disappointed. No one forces you to pre-order, and when you do you have to be aware of what could happen.
I think pre-orders are a bad ideas, for pretty much any game. Thats why I usually wait for release. Now if some people are too impatient, do you think they need to be warned ? Its entirely their money, their decision, their fault.
In short, if you pre-order you know the risk you are taking, and then you have no right to complain afterward.
People can get refunds for a preorder, even Steam gives refunds before the game actually launches.
Its a steam policy, doesn't mean other games have to follow it. I'm pretty sure starvault has a "no-refund" policy .
If you buy something saying "no refund" and then bitch and moan because you want a refund...your fault.
Its a steam policy, doesn't mean other games have to follow it. I'm pretty sure starvault has a "no-refund" policy .
If you buy something saying "no refund" and then bitch and moan because you want a refund...your fault.
Please read the other threads.. it has been shown that the "no refund" policy is against EU law and US regulations. Also.. the "policy" was not something you had to click on to buy the game buy was a clicky stuck on the side of the screen.
These regulations are there to protect the consumer against illegal business practices such as charging a customer and not delivering a product 6 months later...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
See above.
I tried to explain it the first time, but I don't think you understood about the beta codes... companies can't just cancel codes if they don't know what codes to cancel. If you prepurchase something and a code comes in a box, the company doesn't know what code is in the box that was just given out. They can't just cancel beta codes either just because they can't link up the e-mail that bought the game with the e-mail address thats registered to play the game. I don't think you've pre-ordered very many games because - like i said, until recently with steam do they actually link codes with your specific account. A company like SV or a company like DF most likely wouldn't have the resources like a AAA company would in that respect.
3) I don't know how much about the law you really know, but in software cases, including media, once the product is open or used, you can no longer return in in 99% of the cases. Also... "no refunds" is actually legal, believe it or not. When you agree to a no refunds policy..... you don't get refunds. Also, in most states, when it says "by clicking *X* you agree to our terms of use policy" that means you agree to it.. whether or not you read it or didn't. When I went to the site to "purchase" the game, I checked to see what their policy was. Of course I didn't buy the game.. but it definitely had Terms and Conditions to the purchase. Just because you didn't read them doesn't mean they don't apply to you.
In many cases there are times when people can defraud you, by taking your money and not giving you a product. This isn't one of those times because you were playing the product. Whether you logged in for 10 minutes or 30 minutes, you saw that there was a product... and at the end of the month, it will be a final version of the product.
Its like.. you see on the advertisements now battlefield heroes. When that game was in beta, they allowed you to purchase items in the item shops beforehand... had you bought those items, when the game went live you would still have access to those items. Had I purchased the items but then decided I didn't like them before it went live, should I have gotten my money back? If they postponed the launch 30 days? 60 days? If I could play the game, see where my money went, ... if I decided because the game was delayed that I wanted my money back, should I have gotten it back?
Its rather a thin line between what these companies should be able to get away with and what they shouldn't. In all honesty I would've probably tried to get my money back too had I preordered it... and I have preordered games... never in full.... and then moved my money to another preorder if I didn't like the game in beta. Never before have I pulled my money from a game that I liked though... and I think thats what really makes the difference between those that are pulling their money and those that aren't.
I really suggest you learn the law there Mr. Internet Lawyer since you are totally incorrect about the "no refunds" policy and are looking like a little kid like most of the MO supporters on here.
How about digging out your credit card agreement and reading it or mommies if necessary and see what is said about non-delivery of a product. How about checking the Uniform Commercial Code about non-delivery of a contracted product, how about reading what has been posted about EU law about non-delivery. How about learning about the requirements clauses that are required to be followed by all companies that uilize Master Card and VISA's services.
I could go on forever about how wrong you are but you know what, I really get tired of trying to explain facts to children.
Oh and your strawman argument example about returning open software??? That is a store policy NOT A STATE LAW. In fact Mr. Law expert do you even know what the state law say in Louisiana is regarding shrink wrap agreements is? How about Virginia, Colorado? Let me guess, not a chance in hell.
"If you were as smart as you think you are, you would realize that you are an idiot"
The reply above me.. while a bit harsh.. was spot on. There is a REASON we got our money back.. it's because there are laws and regulations that say so. Not because they decide to do so out of the goodness of their hearts. As he said.. you are dead wrong on the Refunds issue.. and I have previously provided the EU regulations applicable here and won't do so again.
You also continue to equate an unfinished beta product with a store bought boxed copy of software that a person opens and uses. At this point I would just be telling you the same information yet again so I leave you to your own devices. Let's just say I, and most of our society, are happy that there are laws and regulations that define how a company can and cannot act. It is the company that has run afoul of those regulations, not the customers and they should not be belittled for holding the company to the minimum of acceptable business practices... such as charging and not delivering a product after 6 months...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I really suggest you learn the law there Mr. Internet Lawyer since you are totally incorrect about the "no refunds" policy and are looking like a little kid like most of the MO supporters on here.
How about digging out your credit card agreement and reading it or mommies if necessary and see what is said about non-delivery of a product. How about checking the Uniform Commercial Code about non-delivery of a contracted product, how about reading what has been posted about EU law about non-delivery. How about learning about the requirements clauses that are required to be followed by all companies that uilize Master Card and VISA's services.
I could go on forever about how wrong you are but you know what, I really get tired of trying to explain facts to children.
Oh and your strawman argument example about returning open software??? That is a store policy NOT A STATE LAW. In fact Mr. Law expert do you even know what the state law say in Louisiana is regarding shrink wrap agreements is? How about Virginia, Colorado? Let me guess, not a chance in hell.
Where exactly did I say that returning open software was a state law? Its dependent on policy.. in all counts, which, wow, actually was proving the point I was making that the policy dictates how items are accepted for return. I don't know many companies that accept returned software... why would I ever suggest that the state would require a privately owned company to? (which is different completely different then non-delivery of items) As for the UCC, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is law everywhere where software is concerned (see UCC 2b) though it isn't widely accepted, it hints to changes being made in the "fairness" of software and consumer rights. Not that is matters at this point, but I just thought it was interesting you brought up virginias shrink wrap agreements.
Mr. high and mighty, if you had read, you'd understand theres a difference between what I said has happened and should happen. I never said anything about the facts of the law.. in fact I said that they *could* get a refund though for all intensive purposes I didn't think it was fair for SV. Of course, you would have to know how to read to see that what I was saying was mainly opinion. I think most people can understand the difference between the words "should" and "do" but.. then again, it looks like I was wrong after all.
Thanks for pointing that out though.
I realized really at this point I'm arguing just for the sake of arguing... and honestly I think I've made my point that I think that the refunds.. though warranted, is distasteful in my opinion, and I think I've tried to explain why sufficiently. The only reason I'm keeping the rest of the post above is because I did take the time to write it... and the guy above slapshot is really just kind of a jerk.
Ok, ttyl then I guess.
Ok, ttyl then I guess.
Naw Makedweasel not a jerk just a realist. You tend to become one with age and real life experience.
I am sick and tired of the internet kiddies spouting falsehoods and tend to come off a bit harsh, well only one thing I can say to those that are easily offended. Grow some and get some thicker skin because life won't treat you with kid gloves and will screw you over any chance it gets just like these companies are doing.
"If you were as smart as you think you are, you would realize that you are an idiot"
Let me add to the argument. The company has to produce what a customer likes, they just can't release an incomplete game and then have all of their fans telling everyone that "its the best MMO ever made!" because once everyone sees how bad it is right now, people will not play past the first month.
SV has to realize that.
Or we will just continue playing after first month? I will, and I am sure there are more to follow me. Every game drop subs aftewr first month of course. As long as they continue developing it it will be fine!
Do this for a few months, and you're out of business. That's why companies need to learn how to develop a game properly, ESPECIALLY indy companies, because there is no big publisher holding purse strings to keep the game afloat.
Lachrymose just lost his moderator powers. Wonder if it was from what he posted in the OP about how to get a refund. Wonder what happened.
Ok, ttyl then I guess.
Naw Makedweasel not a jerk just a realist. You tend to become one with age and real life experience.
I am sick and tired of the internet kiddies spouting falsehoods and tend to come off a bit harsh, well only one thing I can say to those that are easily offended. Grow some and get some thicker skin because life won't treat you with kid gloves and will screw you over any chance it gets just like these companies are doing.
OHHhh you're a realist, thats interesting, because what you said was actually very general and you just pointed your finger rather then actually explaining your point. In the age of internet anonymity where any idiot with a propeller hat can look up UCC regulations, you didn't actually point out anything other then a retail return policy. Sorry to burst your bubble, but my opinions are my own, and sadly, my opinions trump yours, so when you go back through and read all my posts, if you need me to point out in bright flashy colors (so that you won't miss them this time) what an opinion is and what a fact is (that could be misconstrued as a "falsehood") then let me know.
Mccoy, as stated before, I think you know my stand on the issue, the only reason people are wanting a refund is because they didn't like the game, and my OPINION stands firm in the belief that had the game turned out better when they played it in BETA, that this conversation would be very different. It seems the principle only matters when it just so happens to work in your favor. Thats kind of why theres not much left to say in that aspect of the conversation.
I agree with you about that. Also, taking 5 months longer than it was suppose to for the boxes to get shipped pushed it farther along.
Not gonna write 3 pages here about chargebacks, and people stupid enough to pay for Alpha...
m just gonna sit back and laugh as i will be trying it FOR FREE in a couple of days (open beta)
If i don't like it, i won't buy it, if i like it, i'll buy it..
Simple
right!?!
Take care
I agree with you about that. Also, taking 5 months longer than it was suppose to for the boxes to get shipped pushed it farther along.
who ships boxes in beta tho ..