Fact based STO thread

olepi

Ok, there are a ton of threads about STO, who likes it, who doesn't, and why. Most people on both sides claim its all opinions. I think there are some facts that are objective, and these ought to be considered, so that prospective new players can try to make a decision whether they want to buy it or not.

So, please keep flames, and simple "I like/hate the game" comments out of this thread. Let's just talk about the facts. I underlined spots where I am not sure of the info.

Is STO a traditional MMORPG?

    No, STO is not a traditional MMORPG, it is a battle action game. Multiple online players can play together in combat situations. Although there can be a massive number of players online together, each player is always in an instance with a max number of players. (What is that max?) STO does not have a large, open world, but instead is made up of many instances.

What is there to do in STO?

    Combat is the main activity in STO. Other activities that are common in MMORPG's, like harvesting, crafting, exploration, mini-games, are mostly missing in STO. It is a game set in the midst of a war, and you are there to fight. There are quests, and they involve space combat, or ground combat. There are a few that also involve (what? exploration?)

What kind of replayability is there?

    Many MMORPG's have multiple classes, multiple areas, and this leads to replayability. STO has some different classes (3), there is only one starter area. So if you do start an "alt", it will be doing the same quests in the same zones as the first character. There are two main factions, Klingon and Federation, although currently there is little or no PvE content for Klingons.

Does it have PvP? PvE?

    STO is mostly a PvE game; PvP is handled in instances like arenas. There are no open PvP areas with strongpoints (or space stations) to capture or defend. There is no lasting effect from a PvP battle that affects other players in the realm. PvE is either against other space ships, sometimes in large fleet battles, or it is on the ground of planets with small teams.

Is there a free trial?

    No, STO is too new to have a free trial yet. There was an open beta, where some of the game was made available for public testing. There might be a buddy key available from someone.

 

ktanner3

Originally posted by olepi


Ok, there are a ton of threads about STO, who likes it, who doesn't, and why. Most people on both sides claim its all opinions. I think there are some facts that are objective, and these ought to be considered, so that prospective new players can try to make a decision whether they want to buy it or not.
So, please keep flames, and simple "I like/hate the game" comments out of this thread. Let's just talk about the facts. I underlined spots where I am not sure of the info.
Is STO a traditional MMORPG?


    No, STO is not a traditional MMORPG, it is a battle action game. Multiple online players can play together in combat situations. Although there can be a massive number of players online together, each player is always in an instance with a max number of players. (What is that max?) STO does not have a large, open world, but instead is made up of many instances.
It is an MMORPG.Sorry, but your fact is wrong. You've already started wrong here.If by traditional you mean no instances, then of course it won't fit that narrow definition. Instances help reduce the annoying lag that happens when you get too many players in one spot. What difference does it make if hundreds of people can be in one spot when they can hardly move?
 I don't know what the max number of players are per instance, but I've done massive fleet action battles with as many players in one spot as anything I've seen in SWG and WOW, and those two game started lagging fiercely when you got too many people fighting in one spot. This game doesn't.  
What is there to do in STO?


    Combat is the main activity in STO. Other activities that are common in MMORPG's, like harvesting, crafting, exploration, mini-games, are mostly missing in STO. It is a game set in the midst of a war, and you are there to fight. There are quests, and they involve space combat, or ground combat. There are a few that also involve (what? exploration?)
What kind of replayability is there?


There is plenty of combat, but there is also lots of missions that have you exploring clusters where you can encounter anything from new races,new worlds to new anomilies. Exploration badges are given with this mission giver. Whenever I get tired of the storyline or I don't feel like patroling a sector, I go to that mission giver. These missions can be found by "Hailing Starfleet" and talking to the alien that wants you to "explore X starcluster." I believe this is what the devs were talking about with the "Genesis" system awhile back.  
    Many MMORPG's have multiple classes, multiple areas, and this leads to replayability. STO has some different classes (3), there is only one starter area. So if you do start an "alt", it will be doing the same quests in the same zones as the first character. There are two main factions, Klingon and Federation, although currently there is little or no PvE content for Klingons.
All true. One of the upcoming patches will be adding Klingon content, but until that day arrives PVE for Klingons is light. There might have been some PVE given to Klingons in this last patch, but I don't play Klingon so someone else will have to confirm this.
Does it have PvP? PvE?
    STO is mostly a PvE game; PvP is handled in instances like arenas. There are no open PvP areas with strongpoints (or space stations) to capture or defend. There is no lasting effect from a PvP battle that affects other players in the realm. PvE is either against other space ships, sometimes in large fleet battles, or it is on the ground of planets with small teams.
True and hence why I don't PVP. Until there is something to fight for and there is consequences for losing I won't be participating in that part of the game. I don't want people to lose their ships permanently, but something like a kick out of the sector until the battle is over would suffice. I get tired of battles that never end because players can fight recklessly and just zoom back in seconds after dying.
Is there a free trial?
    No, STO is too new to have a free trial yet. There was an open beta, where some of the game was made available for public testing. There might be a buddy key available from someone.
 

 

GrayGhost79

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by olepi


Ok, there are a ton of threads about STO, who likes it, who doesn't, and why. Most people on both sides claim its all opinions. I think there are some facts that are objective, and these ought to be considered, so that prospective new players can try to make a decision whether they want to buy it or not.
So, please keep flames, and simple "I like/hate the game" comments out of this thread. Let's just talk about the facts. I underlined spots where I am not sure of the info.
Is STO a traditional MMORPG?


    No, STO is not a traditional MMORPG, it is a battle action game. Multiple online players can play together in combat situations. Although there can be a massive number of players online together, each player is always in an instance with a max number of players. (What is that max?) STO does not have a large, open world, but instead is made up of many instances.
It is an MMORPG.Sorry, but your fact is wrong. You've already started wrong here.If by traditional you mean no instances, then of course it won't fit that narrow definition. Instances help reduce the annoying lag that happens when you get too many players in one spot. What difference does it make if hundreds of people can be in one spot when they can hardly move?
 I don't know what the max number of players are per instance, but I've done massive fleet action battles with as many players in one spot as anything I've seen in SWG and WOW, and those two game started lagging fiercely when you got too many people fighting in one spot. This game doesn't.  
He asked for facts not opinion. There is a max of 50 players per instance. No this is not a traditional MMORPG for numerous reasons. Weather those reasons make the game good or bad is for each individual to decide. The OP is correct, sorry. As a reference Guild Wars had instances as well to help reduce the lag, the difference is that even Guild Wars had a cap of 250 per instance. As far as it's an MMORPG, that seems to be opinion as many disagree. Even the developers of GW stated they don't consider GW's an MMO, most gamers don't consider GW's an MMO, yet most people seem to agree that GW's is more of an MMO than STO is. 
So again, he asked for facts not opinions. Stating that STO is a MMORPG is an opinion, and not a widely shared one. Me stating that it is not, is still an opinion even though it's one that seems to be shared by more people. So lets just stick with the facts. 
What is there to do in STO?


    Combat is the main activity in STO. Other activities that are common in MMORPG's, like harvesting, crafting, exploration, mini-games, are mostly missing in STO. It is a game set in the midst of a war, and you are there to fight. There are quests, and they involve space combat, or ground combat. There are a few that also involve (what? exploration?)
What kind of replayability is there?


There is plenty of combat, but there is also lots of missions that have you exploring clusters where you can encounter anything from new races,new worlds to new anomilies. Exploration badges are given with this mission giver. Whenever I get tired of the storyline or I don't feel like patroling a sector, I go to that mission giver. These missions can be found by "Hailing Starfleet" and talking to the alien that wants you to "explore X starcluster." I believe this is what the devs were talking about with the "Genesis" system awhile back.  
In the end there are 2 things to do. Click blinkies and combat. The exploration was a concept many enjoyed on papaer not sure how many still enjoy it now that it's been revealed to be nothing more than click blinkies and combat as well. 
    Many MMORPG's have multiple classes, multiple areas, and this leads to replayability. STO has some different classes (3), there is only one starter area. So if you do start an "alt", it will be doing the same quests in the same zones as the first character. There are two main factions, Klingon and Federation, although currently there is little or no PvE content for Klingons.
All true. One of the upcoming patches will be adding Klingon content, but until that day arrives PVE for Klingons is light. There might have been some PVE given to Klingons in this last patch, but I don't play Klingon so someone else will have to confirm this.
Does it have PvP? PvE?
    STO is mostly a PvE game; PvP is handled in instances like arenas. There are no open PvP areas with strongpoints (or space stations) to capture or defend. There is no lasting effect from a PvP battle that affects other players in the realm. PvE is either against other space ships, sometimes in large fleet battles, or it is on the ground of planets with small teams.
True and hence why I don't PVP. Until there is something to fight for and there is consequences for losing I won't be participating in that part of the game. I don't want people to lose their ships permanently, but something like a kick out of the sector until the battle is over would suffice. I get tired of battles that never end because players can fight recklessly and just zoom back in seconds after dying.
Is there a free trial?
    No, STO is too new to have a free trial yet. There was an open beta, where some of the game was made available for public testing. There might be a buddy key available from someone.
 

 

 

ktanner3

Originally posted by GrayGhost79






 
He asked for facts not opinion. There is a max of 50 players per instance. No this is not a traditional MMORPG for numerous reasons. Weather those reasons make the game good or bad is for each individual to decide. The OP is correct, sorry. As a reference Guild Wars had instances as well to help reduce the lag, the difference is that even Guild Wars had a cap of 250 per instance. As far as it's an MMORPG, that seems to be opinion as many disagree. Even the developers of GW stated they don't consider GW's an MMO, most gamers don't consider GW's an MMO, yet most people seem to agree that GW's is more of an MMO than STO is. 
So again, he asked for facts not opinions. Stating that STO is a MMORPG is an opinion, and not a widely shared one. Me stating that it is not, is still an opinion even though it's one that seems to be shared by more people. So lets just stick with the facts. 
Well then if either answer is an opinion, then why ask the question in a "fact" thread? According to the makers of the game it is an MMORPG. According to this webiste, it is an MMORPG. Adding the word "traditional" to it  turns it into an open ended question where only opinions can be given.
In the end there are 2 things to do. Click blinkies and combat. The exploration was a concept many enjoyed on papaer not sure how many still enjoy it now that it's been revealed to be nothing more than click blinkies and combat as well. 
No it is not just click blinkies and combat. Only someone who has not played the game or ignored that part would say something like that. Whether or not you enjoy it is irrelevant. This is supposed to be a "fact" thread remember? There is more than just combat in this game. I already provided the person you needed to talk to if you want to explore. The OP clearly wanted personal bias out of this thread since we already have enough of "This game sucks/is aweswome" threads. Can we at least have one thread in this site that isn't a big circle jerk of hate?
   

 

 

 

kakasaki

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by GrayGhost79






 
He asked for facts not opinion. There is a max of 50 players per instance. No this is not a traditional MMORPG for numerous reasons. Weather those reasons make the game good or bad is for each individual to decide. The OP is correct, sorry. As a reference Guild Wars had instances as well to help reduce the lag, the difference is that even Guild Wars had a cap of 250 per instance. As far as it's an MMORPG, that seems to be opinion as many disagree. Even the developers of GW stated they don't consider GW's an MMO, most gamers don't consider GW's an MMO, yet most people seem to agree that GW's is more of an MMO than STO is. 
So again, he asked for facts not opinions. Stating that STO is a MMORPG is an opinion, and not a widely shared one. Me stating that it is not, is still an opinion even though it's one that seems to be shared by more people. So lets just stick with the facts. 
Well then if either answer is an opinion, then why ask the question in a "fact" thread? According to the makers of the game it is an MMORPG. According to this webiste, it is an MMORPG. Adding the word "traditional" to it  turns it into an open ended question where only opinions can be given.
In the end there are 2 things to do. Click blinkies and combat. The exploration was a concept many enjoyed on papaer not sure how many still enjoy it now that it's been revealed to be nothing more than click blinkies and combat as well. 
No it is not just click blinkies and combat. Only someone who has not played the game or ignored that part would say something like that. Whether or not you enjoy it is irrelevant. This is supposed to be a "fact" thread remember? There is more than just combat in this game. I already provided the person you needed to talk to if you want to explore. The OP clearly wanted personal bias out of this thread since we already have enough of "This game sucks/is aweswome" threads. Can we at least have one thread in this site that isn't a big circle jerk of hate?
   

 

 

 

Actually, according to the official review of the game on this site, it should not call itself an MMORPG...

olepi

Let's don't get bogged down in whether it is technically an MMORPG or not. I said "traditional MMORPG" so that people would think of EQ or DAOC type games, and STO is not like those.  If someone wants a game like an EQ, and is hoping STO is EQ in space, I am saying that it is not. That is not a judgement, just an observation, neither good nor bad.

ktanner3

Originally posted by olepi


Let's don't get bogged down in whether it is technically an MMORPG or not. I said "traditional MMORPG" so that people would think of EQ or DAOC type games, and STO is not like those.  If someone wants a game like an EQ, and is hoping STO is EQ in space, I am saying that it is not. That is not a judgement, just an observation, neither good nor bad.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

Rocketeer

Originally posted by olepi

Ok, there are a ton of threads about STO, who likes it, who doesn't, and why. Most people on both sides claim its all opinions. I think there are some facts that are objective, and these ought to be considered, so that prospective new players can try to make a decision whether they want to buy it or not.

So, please keep flames, and simple "I like/hate the game" comments out of this thread. Let's just talk about the facts. I underlined spots where I am not sure of the info.

Is STO a traditional MMORPG? What exactly is the definition of a "traditional" MMORPG?

No, STO is not a traditional MMORPG, it is a battle action game. Multiple online players can play together in combat situations. Although there can be a massive number of players online together, each player is always in an instance with a max number of players. (What is that max?) STO does not have a large, open world, but instead is made up of many instances.

If you want a fact, STO is a modern mmorpg. It always brings enough people together for group content if you want, yet never so many that you have to make a line for mobs. Older mmorpgs have the problem that the population fluctuates heavily with the age of the game/server. At launch the starting areas are crowded, and at highend you dont see a soul. Later on its the other way around. WoW implementet cross server queues for groupcontent, this is taking it a step further cause it also solves the overpopulation part of the problem. There is no compelling reason to have more than 50 people in the same place, infact it would most likely be detrimental to the gameplay experience.

What is there to do in STO?

Combat is the main activity in STO. Other activities that are common in MMORPG's, like harvesting, crafting, exploration, mini-games, are mostly missing in STO. It is a game set in the midst of a war, and you are there to fight. There are quests, and they involve space combat, or ground combat. There are a few that also involve (what? exploration?) There are annoyingly many quest that do not involve fighting. Somehave you deliver medical supplys to a planet in need, others have you evacuating xy, sometimes you have to search for clues in a abandoned starbase, i once had to repair weatherstations on a planet or talk some sense into two merchants who each thought the other stole from him. And im not talking about combat optional, im talking about no enemys on the map. Thankfully you can avoid them mostly by avoiding some contacts/missions.

What kind of replayability is there?

    Many MMORPG's have multiple classes, multiple areas, and this leads to replayability. STO has some different classes (3), there is only one starter area. So if you do start an "alt", it will be doing the same quests in the same zones as the first character. There are two main factions, Klingon and Federation, although currently there is little or no PvE content for Klingons.

The "classes" in STO are the ships. There also is no ultimate ship in each tier, instead there are 2 ships of each class that require the admiral rank, and yes you need to skill your char different to specialize for them. Also you dont have to upgrade your ship to a newer one, nothing wrong with a defiant or intrepid at admiral. There can be good reasons for that.

Also cryptic already is busy adding content, and even new factions are planned. If you take your time you wont experience a shortage of content imho.

Does it have PvP? PvE?

    STO is mostly a PvE game; PvP is handled in instances like arenas. There are no open PvP areas with strongpoints (or space stations) to capture or defend. There is no lasting effect from a PvP battle that affects other players in the realm. PvE is either against other space ships, sometimes in large fleet battles, or it is on the ground of planets with small teams.

Is there a free trial?

    No, STO is too new to have a free trial yet. There was an open beta, where some of the game was made available for public testing. There might be a buddy key available from someone.

 

 

The technics behind the instance system are really interesting btw. Im not 100% sure yet but i think it is very dynamic. The way i think it works is that, if player a from instance Sol 1, and player b from instance Sol 2 would enter the same missionobject on their respective map, they could still end up in the same instance of that mission. So even if the other 49 people in your instance igore the object, you still wont necessarily be alone since people from other instances can enter it too.

rygar218

Ok hang on..... lets get this straight your telilng me the reason they went instance zones is to cut back on server stabiilty and lag due to high amount of people in one area?

Ummm anyone remember eq 1?

Back in the old days of Dial-up? I can remember countless times where I would do /who (zone) and show up 300+ people in an area. And I didn't lag even during epic battles lets say during nagafen where there 80 people in the area. Fought nagafen and all the fire giants without lagging without crashing. Being hit by his dragon breath weapon and his dragon roar (Fear) and still didn't lag.....

 

Rocketeer

Originally posted by rygar218


Ok hang on..... lets get this straight your telilng me the reason they went instance zones is to cut back on server stabiilty and lag due to high amount of people in one area?
Ummm anyone remember eq 1?
Back in the old days of Dial-up? I can remember countless times where I would do /who (zone) and show up 300+ people in an area. And I didn't lag even during epic battles lets say during nagafen where there 80 people in the area. Fought nagafen and all the fire giants without lagging without crashing. Being hit by his dragon breath weapon and his dragon roar (Fear) and still didn't lag.....
 

Well my trusty old 386SX also didnt lag when i played pong, yet my current machine cant run the new max payne 2 at max details, so yeah maybe your on to something there.

 

The reason they went instanced zones is that they only run one server, like eve. 300k people dont fit anymore on one STO server than they would on one WoW server. Once you had 5k+ people in dalaran you would beg for instances, cause you couldnt see the ground, or npcs, or well anything besides other players. And thats assuming 0 lag.

You either play in neat little packages of a a few k people per server, or you do massive instances(or the way eve did it with decentralizing, which wouldnt work in STO since earth is always the center). Personally i take the instances over the server approach, mostly because i hate being stuck on the wrong server(and your always on the wrong server, the dieing one with the crappy community and the horrible pvp balance where your side always looses). Warhammer pretty much showed why the server approach doesnt really work very well for anyone but blizzard, and even they have servers that are pretty much dead these days.

 

Sure there are downsides to instances, but there are upsides too, you always have people online to play with, that there are hundreds of good guilds, instead of 1-2 who dominate endgame on your server. Your also always going to be on the same server as your friends are, even if you started the game independently from each other and also you or your guild can make a name for yourself, you have a identity. If your rocketeer in STO(im not), its the only rocketeer in STO. Also the game feels never empty, and never crowded either. You always have a nice amount of people around you, and that includes 2am in the morning when you get home from nightshift on a weekday.

AmonSul

Originally posted by olepi


Let's don't get bogged down in whether it is technically an MMORPG or not. I said "traditional MMORPG" so that people would think of EQ or DAOC type games, and STO is not like those.  If someone wants a game like an EQ, and is hoping STO is EQ in space, I am saying that it is not. That is not a judgement, just an observation, neither good nor bad.

 

Aye, and it is an important distinction to be made as everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, in this game occurs in small instances with an average population of 20 people.

So if people come here and expect large zones with houndreds of people, they will be dissapointed. This game actually takes it one more step than in CO because in that game there was rather large instanced zones where as here the zones are small and short lived.

This is the main reason why I dont think PvP territorial control is possible in this game. How can you have territorial control over a bunch of instances? Fleet X control instance #2 and Fleet Y control instance #4?

Mopar63

Originally posted by olepi


Ok, there are a ton of threads about STO, who likes it, who doesn't, and why. Most people on both sides claim its all opinions. I think there are some facts that are objective, and these ought to be considered, so that prospective new players can try to make a decision whether they want to buy it or not.
So, please keep flames, and simple "I like/hate the game" comments out of this thread. Let's just talk about the facts. I underlined spots where I am not sure of the info.
Is STO a traditional MMORPG?


    No, STO is not a traditional MMORPG, it is a battle action game. Multiple online players can play together in combat situations. Although there can be a massive number of players online together, each player is always in an instance with a max number of players. (What is that max?) STO does not have a large, open world, but instead is made up of many instances.
I am not sure I buy into this arguement. Look at games like DDO that actually have some pretty heavy uses of instances ye no one questions their definition of MMO. Heck by EVE online standards WoW is questionably not an MMO.
True it is not traditional but that why is that bad? A lot of traditional games just plain suck.
What is there to do in STO?


    Combat is the main activity in STO. Other activities that are common in MMORPG's, like harvesting, crafting, exploration, mini-games, are mostly missing in STO. It is a game set in the midst of a war, and you are there to fight. There are quests, and they involve space combat, or ground combat. There are a few that also involve (what? exploration?)
This is not really fair. I mean do not most quests in ALL MMOs involve combat? Show me one that is mostly exploration please. While STO does lack free handed exploration so do most MMOs. As for harvesting there is some of that but crafting are you serious? I mean you Captain a starship with matter replicators that will make anything you like. I do not think having a ability to make stew in the game will be missed.
What kind of replayability is there?


    Many MMORPG's have multiple classes, multiple areas, and this leads to replayability. STO has some different classes (3), there is only one starter area. So if you do start an "alt", it will be doing the same quests in the same zones as the first character. There are two main factions, Klingon and Federation, although currently there is little or no PvE content for Klingons.
While the lack of "classes" might limit some people I have yet to find it an issue. The idea of the same starting area is a bit of an issue for sure but MANY MMOs have the same base set of missions. I mean once you get past the base starter area in LOTRO does not everyone replay the same missions all over again?
Does it have PvP? PvE?
    STO is mostly a PvE game; PvP is handled in instances like arenas. There are no open PvP areas with strongpoints (or space stations) to capture or defend. There is no lasting effect from a PvP battle that affects other players in the realm. PvE is either against other space ships, sometimes in large fleet battles, or it is on the ground of planets with small teams.
The same arguement can be used for PVP in most games. The number of MMOs with MEANINGFUL PvP could be counted on one hand.
Is there a free trial?
    No, STO is too new to have a free trial yet. There was an open beta, where some of the game was made available for public testing. There might be a buddy key available from someone.
 And again this makes it not an MMO why?

 

Vato26

Originally posted by AmonSul

Originally posted by olepi


Let's don't get bogged down in whether it is technically an MMORPG or not. I said "traditional MMORPG" so that people would think of EQ or DAOC type games, and STO is not like those.  If someone wants a game like an EQ, and is hoping STO is EQ in space, I am saying that it is not. That is not a judgement, just an observation, neither good nor bad.

 

Aye, and it is an important distinction to be made as everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, in this game occurs in small instances with an average population of 20 people.  Completely false.

So if people come here and expect large zones with houndreds of people, they will be dissapointed. This game actually takes it one more step than in CO because in that game there was rather large instanced zones where as here the zones are small and short lived.

This is the main reason why I dont think PvP territorial control is possible in this game. How can you have territorial control over a bunch of instances? Fleet X control instance #2 and Fleet Y control instance #4?

Instancing is a personal preference.  Despite people's complaining, it will not go away anytime soon.  So, truthfully, it is only a subjective negative rather than a factual negative.

Burntvet

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by AmonSul

Originally posted by olepi


Let's don't get bogged down in whether it is technically an MMORPG or not. I said "traditional MMORPG" so that people would think of EQ or DAOC type games, and STO is not like those.  If someone wants a game like an EQ, and is hoping STO is EQ in space, I am saying that it is not. That is not a judgement, just an observation, neither good nor bad.

 

Aye, and it is an important distinction to be made as everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, in this game occurs in small instances with an average population of 20 people.  Completely false.

So if people come here and expect large zones with houndreds of people, they will be dissapointed. This game actually takes it one more step than in CO because in that game there was rather large instanced zones where as here the zones are small and short lived.

This is the main reason why I dont think PvP territorial control is possible in this game. How can you have territorial control over a bunch of instances? Fleet X control instance #2 and Fleet Y control instance #4?

Instancing is a personal preference.  Despite people's complaining, it will not go away anytime soon.  So, truthfully, it is only a subjective negative rather than a factual negative.

  Too much of anything is usually bad thing. Like STO, over instancing was one of the main reasons POTBS tanked, and not only that, but the type of game (or doing it well, at least) lent itself to more open world and less restrictive mechanics. In GW, it was not game breaking, because the game revolved around matched area combat anyway.

In STO, this much over instancing breaks the game into little tiny boxes to go play in. For me and for many, this made it a crappy game, and a poor ST game (like many other poor ST games)  and breaks the flow of the game. If little shoeboxes are good enough for you, enjoy.

 

 

 

Vato26

Originally posted by Burntvet

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by AmonSul

Originally posted by olepi


Let's don't get bogged down in whether it is technically an MMORPG or not. I said "traditional MMORPG" so that people would think of EQ or DAOC type games, and STO is not like those.  If someone wants a game like an EQ, and is hoping STO is EQ in space, I am saying that it is not. That is not a judgement, just an observation, neither good nor bad.

 

Aye, and it is an important distinction to be made as everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, in this game occurs in small instances with an average population of 20 people.  Completely false.

So if people come here and expect large zones with houndreds of people, they will be dissapointed. This game actually takes it one more step than in CO because in that game there was rather large instanced zones where as here the zones are small and short lived.

This is the main reason why I dont think PvP territorial control is possible in this game. How can you have territorial control over a bunch of instances? Fleet X control instance #2 and Fleet Y control instance #4?

Instancing is a personal preference.  Despite people's complaining, it will not go away anytime soon.  So, truthfully, it is only a subjective negative rather than a factual negative.

  Too much of anything is usually bad thing. Like STO, over instancing was one of the main reasons POTBS tanked, and not only that, but the type of game (or doing it well, at least) lent itself to more open world and less restrictive mechanics. In GW, it was not game breaking, because the game revolved around matched area combat anyway.

In STO, this much over instancing breaks the game into little tiny boxes to go play in. For me and for many, this made it a crappy game, and a poor ST game (like many other poor ST games)  and breaks the flow of the game. If little shoeboxes are good enough for you, enjoy.

Yet, this is all your OPINION, not fact.  I, and many others totally disagree with your opinion that this is a "crappy game". 

My statement still stands that instancing is based on personal preference, which is a subjective negative rather than a factual negative.

Loke666

Originally posted by Rocketeer 
The reason they went instanced zones is that they only run one server, like eve. 300k people dont fit anymore on one STO server than they would on one WoW server. Once you had 5k+ people in dalaran you would beg for instances, cause you couldnt see the ground, or npcs, or well anything besides other players. And thats assuming 0 lag.
You either play in neat little packages of a a few k people per server, or you do massive instances(or the way eve did it with decentralizing, which wouldnt work in STO since earth is always the center). Personally i take the instances over the server approach, mostly because i hate being stuck on the wrong server(and your always on the wrong server, the dieing one with the crappy community and the horrible pvp balance where your side always looses). Warhammer pretty much showed why the server approach doesnt really work very well for anyone but blizzard, and even they have servers that are pretty much dead these days.
 
Sure there are downsides to instances, but there are upsides too, you always have people online to play with, that there are hundreds of good guilds, instead of 1-2 who dominate endgame on your server. Your also always going to be on the same server as your friends are, even if you started the game independently from each other and also you or your guild can make a name for yourself, you have a identity. If your rocketeer in STO(im not), its the only rocketeer in STO. Also the game feels never empty, and never crowded either. You always have a nice amount of people around you, and that includes 2am in the morning when you get home from nightshift on a weekday.

It is true that instanced games with one large server works fine. I prefer a server myself so I learn to know people better but this works, I played Guildwars myself for a year.

 

50 people at max however is a different thing. I think that is too small, some instances at least should have larger caps.

My main problem with STO however is that it doesn't feel like remotely what the series. A Star trek game should feel just like watching an episode and it doesn't. If you like it anyways, fine for you but I think they could as well made their own IP instead.

wookiemart

You want facts, I'll give you the plainest fact there is.
 
STO isn't stimulating, and fails to offer the player the tools required to create a story for himself that he could not otherwise achieve with his own imagination.
 
If the only way for me to make my character unique from others is with "supplemental logs" then the simple fact is that this game has absolutely no need to be played online. I could very well achieve the exact same effect in my living room with a pen and some paper.

furidiam

One of the main "issues" that most people will find with the game is the "flying/walking" around and meeting new people at different area's.  In STO you fly your ship around and may see a couple people which are also just "flying" around.  You will NOT see them fight unless you join a instance with them.

How many people remember running around an area (almost any mmo) and MEETING people that were actually doing things.  I remember in eq when i first started and i ran into some ruins and there were 3 people fighting mobs.  Everyone kept getting there butts kicked.  Then we all talking for a couple min and formed a grp to take it on.  THIS WAS THE FUN PART>.

 

STO you are RANDOMLY grped with people when you enter an instance (or you can go in solo).

The ship combat is FUN in STO but not challenging. example- 9 enemy ships attack you....you kill one then die....10 seconds later you respawn aka rinse repeat till you win.

Ground combat is "ok" but generally pretty generic.

I will not talk about pvp in STO because it is a pathetic attempt at it.

Klingon side is NOT FINNISHED.  If ANYONE says that klingons are even remotely finnished they are smoking crack.

As it sits right now STO is half finnished as a release product.  Even if it is only finnished due to the fact that one faction is completely missing content.

STO is a fun game but has little to no "depth".  I had fun playing STO in beta but once i reached a certain point it became bland due to the fact that everything feels the "same" pretty much once you reach LT commander.

Rocketeer

Originally posted by furidiam


One of the main "issues" that most people will find with the game is the "flying/walking" around and meeting new people at different area's.  In STO you fly your ship around and may see a couple people which are also just "flying" around.  You will NOT see them fight unless you join a instance with them. What kind of startrek would this be if captains saw other captains fighting for their lives without helping them? That wouldnt be startrek, it makes no sense in fantasy games, it would make less sense with this IP. Besides this has the nice side effect that you dont see combat everywhere, you only see combat when you join a instance requireing it. Sure intellectually you know everyone around you is probably coming from, or going to the next combat mission, but you dont get your nose rubbed into it.
How many people remember running around an area (almost any mmo) and MEETING people that were actually doing things.  I remember in eq when i first started and i ran into some ruins and there were 3 people fighting mobs.  Everyone kept getting there butts kicked.  Then we all talking for a couple min and formed a grp to take it on.  THIS WAS THE FUN PART>.

Shocking, but thats exactly how it usually works for me. What exactly in STO is preventing you from meeting up with other people, forming groups, and helping each other? Apart from the fact that you dont want to do it i mean?
 
STO you are RANDOMLY grped with people when you enter an instance (or you can go in solo).

Thats an option in team settings. Dont like it? Turn it off. Dont like grouping with randoms? Form a group with those in your fleet or friendlist. You dont have either? Well thats obviously the games fault.
The ship combat is FUN in STO but not challenging. example- 9 enemy ships attack you....you kill one then die....10 seconds later you respawn aka rinse repeat till you win.

Are you serious? Maybe, just maybe, try to leave out the dieing part? If i saw someone doing what you describe in any mmo, deathpenalty or not, i would quietly take them aside and explain them something about games, not computer games, but games in general. Short version would be, the point is not to loose. If you dont care about loosing, or winning, your inner kid, well ... its dead jim.
Ground combat is "ok" but generally pretty generic.
I will not talk about pvp in STO because it is a pathetic attempt at it.

Care to explain this one a bit? I kinda like capture and hold, or even the fleet stuff. It also gets nice and tactical with all the skills and drawn out fights, unlike certain other games where its just wham-bam-dead "Oh sorry you rolled a warlock and it appears there are 80% rogues on the other sides, well have fun."
Klingon side is NOT FINNISHED.  If ANYONE says that klingons are even remotely finnished they are smoking crack.
As it sits right now STO is half finnished as a release product.  Even if it is only finnished due to the fact that one faction is completely missing content.

I agree, cryptic agrees, cryptic is gonna change it. Your a diehard klingon? You can talk like a klingon, apply their mating rituals on dates and got a bat'let at home and chase kids with it yelling klingon obscenities? Wait a couple months.
STO is a fun game but has little to no "depth".  I had fun playing STO in beta but once i reached a certain point it became bland due to the fact that everything feels the "same" pretty much once you reach LT commander.

Strange its the opposite for me. I feel like the game is finally starting to get interesting, now that my enemies actually start using bad(for me) abilities, like tractorbeams and stuff. And i already own a escort, a cruiser and a science vessel, and they are nothing alike. Well maybe the cruiser and science vessel are alike a bit, looking forward to the next rank where the differences get emphasized even more.

 

All this drama, just because cryptic didnt make the kind of game some people wanted. Get over it, not every game is supposed to be your own wet dreamfantasy of a mmorpg. There are plenty of people liking STO just like it is, we want maybe more content for klingons, or more ships and more variety on missions. But you want a completly different game, and i for one am glad cryptic wont(cant) give in to that.

For a fun fact, compare the whining warhammer or AOC or other fails got at release, and compare the whining about this. STO isnt failing, people are simply discorvering that they dont like it, instead of raising legitimate issues like lag/lack of progression content/balance or population. This game is insanely fun if you play it with a friend or a couple friends, instead of like a sologame.

maxeborn

as a living breathing universe Eve has STO beat by lightyears

Thanosxp

Originally posted by maxeborn


as a living breathing universe Eve has STO beat by lightyears

So true...But in a parallel universe where CCP made star trek online..man,imagine the wonders..

 

=]~

Mopar63

Originally posted by maxeborn


as a living breathing universe Eve has STO beat by lightyears

 

Very true, there is no doubt. But then again EVE also does not carry the baggage of the ST IP, has had a few years to grow and has a learning cliff. There is a sad truth, for the majority of MMO players EVE is to hard and harsh. The game requires a lot of commitment to be successful in it and many people do not want thier game to feel like work, which EVE can become. However I will not dispute that EVE is a deeper and richer world.

Phry

Originally posted by Mopar63

Originally posted by maxeborn


as a living breathing universe Eve has STO beat by lightyears

 

Very true, there is no doubt. But then again EVE also does not carry the baggage of the ST IP, has had a few years to grow and has a learning cliff. There is a sad truth, for the majority of MMO players EVE is to hard and harsh. The game requires a lot of commitment to be successful in it and many people do not want thier game to feel like work, which EVE can become. However I will not dispute that EVE is a deeper and richer world.

 

Its true enough, some of the activities in Eve actually sound like hard work, and it beats me why people enjoy that.. all sorts i guess, but at least your not forced into playing in a particular way, i dont think i've ever come across a game with so many different types of players.. but even so.. its still a niche game, it does seem that fantasy games are the most popular, and that sci-fi based ones (IP's or not) seem to be less popular, just a thought, but do girls think that sci-fi games are more geeky than the fantasy ones - im not suggesting that the only reason guys play MMO's is because they'll find girls there, (although clearly some do seem to think that way!)  but is a games success measured by an increased ratio of female players ? or something like that

AmonSul

Originally posted by Mopar63

Originally posted by maxeborn


as a living breathing universe Eve has STO beat by lightyears

 

Very true, there is no doubt. But then again EVE also does not carry the baggage of the ST IP, has had a few years to grow and has a learning cliff. There is a sad truth, for the majority of MMO players EVE is to hard and harsh. The game requires a lot of commitment to be successful in it and many people do not want thier game to feel like work, which EVE can become. However I will not dispute that EVE is a deeper and richer world.

Those things in Eve, like overly harsch penalties, can be changed. What matter is that Eve has the right foundation for a space MMO where space is vast and persistant sandbox and STO will never have that because it is built on instances after instances and themeparks.

Exploring and persistant actions will not be seen in STO because everything is instances. Territorial control (like a war) will not be possible in STO because you cannot control somethign that has XX instances. That is why the Abyss is persistant in Aion and not instanced.

Exploring in themeparks is also not possible because themeparks is built around the notion of devs adding new rides to run and there is no time in the world where devs can add enough rides for 1000s of people to explore. Exploration needs vastness of space and such a thing does not exist in STO and will not ever exist because of their architecture, which consists of small, short lived instances.

junzo316

Originally posted by Rocketeer 
 
If you want a fact, STO is a modern mmorpg. It always brings enough people together for group content if you want, yet never so many that you have to make a line for mobs. Older mmorpgs have the problem that the population fluctuates heavily with the age of the game/server. At launch the starting areas are crowded, and at highend you dont see a soul. Later on its the other way around. WoW implementet cross server queues for groupcontent, this is taking it a step further cause it also solves the overpopulation part of the problem. There is no compelling reason to have more than 50 people in the same place, infact it would most likely be detrimental to the gameplay experience.

 

This is just one of my problems with this game and why I don't think it is an MMO.  Where is the massive?  50 people in an instance is not massive by any stretch of the imagination.  I really hope this isn't a "modern" MMO because I think it takes a step backwards instead of a leap forward in the evolution of MMO's.  Having 50 people in an instance max is NOT massive.

 

The biggest draw back of the game is the immersion.  It seems that Cryptic went out of their way to ruin this.  If I have to "switch" instances to help a friend, instead of warping to their location, you loose part of the immersion that I love when I play MMO's.  The instance thing kinda kills this game (among other things).  Once again, Cryptic has dropped the ball.

Vato26

Originally posted by junzo316

Originally posted by Rocketeer 
 
If you want a fact, STO is a modern mmorpg. It always brings enough people together for group content if you want, yet never so many that you have to make a line for mobs. Older mmorpgs have the problem that the population fluctuates heavily with the age of the game/server. At launch the starting areas are crowded, and at highend you dont see a soul. Later on its the other way around. WoW implementet cross server queues for groupcontent, this is taking it a step further cause it also solves the overpopulation part of the problem. There is no compelling reason to have more than 50 people in the same place, infact it would most likely be detrimental to the gameplay experience.

 

This is just one of my problems with this game and why I don't think it is an MMO.  Where is the massive?  50 people in an instance is not massive by any stretch of the imagination.  I really hope this isn't a "modern" MMO because I think it takes a step backwards instead of a leap forward in the evolution of MMO's.  Having 50 people in an instance max is NOT massive.

 

The biggest draw back of the game is the immersion.  It seems that Cryptic went out of their way to ruin this.  If I have to "switch" instances to help a friend, instead of warping to their location, you loose part of the immersion that I love when I play MMO's.  The instance thing kinda kills this game (among other things).  Once again, Cryptic has dropped the ball.

Instancing is a personal preference.  Thus, it is a subjective negative rather than a factual negative.

 

Anyways, regardless of "Massive" being a totally subjective term as well, I will answer your question.  Players can contact anyone they want wherever they are.  They can use ingame mail to contact other players.  They can see their own fleet-mates anywhere in the game.  They can trade with anyone in the game (regardless of faction) via the Exchange (auction house).  Sounds pretty "Massive" to me.

And, your last part was nothing but opinion.  Again, instancing is a subjective negative rather than a factual negative.