Originally posted by kaltoum Originally posted by randomt If it was really good, sure, for a while.. My problem is that AI is just so predictable and so boring to fight against, whereas humans can be unpredictable so you constantly have to adapt to the situation, so often more challenging and therefore fun
Not really. After playing EVE for years and Warhammer from day one i have experinced that there is only so many strategies and surprise factors you can implement in a PVP game. Even builds become so predictable that its as boring as fighting with an AI.
Sure, but the difference is that an AI always reacts the same ways, whereas a human might do stupid illogical things, make mistakes, etc, leading to an unpredictable situation
yes i would... pvp is something that i usually avoid... i only do it when there is nothing else to do in a game, and in games like wow there is always something to do
I played Everquest when DoAC was around, I couldn't grasp the concept of PvP in a massive online roleplaying world cause then it just seems to take the massive and rpg out of the game.
I will however say that being a loyal supporter of Fallen Earth, it being very PvE oriented it seems to have the most interesting approach to PvP of any current mmo. Controled arenas in nearly every zone + bloodsports, and being that gear doesn't seem to be the contributing factor of a "win" vs "lose" since there are no "LEET" drops only what you yourself craft or buy from other crafters.
PvP was never meant to collide with MMOs WoW started the trend among many other things and since then games fail... why? Because they are so focused on the competative PvP that it kills what an mmo stands for.. I don't wanna spend 15 dollars or more per month to gloat about "who has the bigger stick" the idea of an mmo since UO and lineage was to explore, live, admire, and socialize with the community. You add something like PvP to the mix you lose all that and it because a big dramafest. PvP should stay with RTS and FPS games, enough said.
Yep. Pve is basically coop and coop can be a blast with good comms and the right people. If it is going to be a Pve game it has to have outstanding communications and party options. Complex environment, indepth crafting, powerful economy tools, cause you want to attract industry types like Eve has, and rewarding story telling , (like voice overs and a complete world-not one that peters out after level 20), and exploration all required. If the meat is not PvP then people got to have something to feast on for a couple years you know?
I would not, PvE or AI does not offer me enough of a challenge at this tech level, PvE gets boring and repetitive while PvP always has a chance to be something new and unexpected.
The real gaming challenges reside in PvP and it doesn't surprise me that most are not up for that challenge....much like real life people tend to be lazy and not want to challenge themselves save for the select few who do not fit that generalization.
PvP was never meant to collide with MMOs WoW started the trend among many other things
Oh dear, someone else who thinks WoW invented the genre. There's scarcely an original feature in WoW, the biggest reason for its success is that it took everything that worked in other games, polished them up, and released them all in one game. PvP existed in MMO's since the very beginning of MMO's, several years before WoW was conceived let alone developed. I can't remember off-hand if the Realm and Meridian 59 had PvP, but UO, EQ, AC, AO and DAoC certainly did and they were the first generation MMO's in terms of wide appeal and commercial success.
I would not, PvE or AI does not offer me enough of a challenge at this tech level, PvE gets boring and repetitive while PvP always has a chance to be something new and unexpected.
The real gaming challenges reside in PvP and it doesn't surprise me that most are not up for that challenge....much like real life people tend to be lazy and not want to challenge themselves save for the select few who do not fit that generalization.
Yes nowadays in most games. Now tell the guys who have been banging their head against some raid bosses out there for months before scoring the first kill that there is no challenge in pve. It has been watered down in many games, but there can be serious pve challenge and there are games out there to prove it.
On the other hand... To be honest, when I want to play PvP y play a shooter, or some console fight game. I don't think an mmo is the best environment for pvping.
I would not, PvE or AI does not offer me enough of a challenge at this tech level, PvE gets boring and repetitive while PvP always has a chance to be something new and unexpected.
The real gaming challenges reside in PvP and it doesn't surprise me that most are not up for that challenge....much like real life people tend to be lazy and not want to challenge themselves save for the select few who do not fit that generalization.
The way most PvP games are setup now one of four outcomes occurs almost everytime.
1. You exterminate your opponent, as in owning him.
2. Your opponent exterminates you, as in owns you bad.
3. A third party owns one or both of you and you usually didn't know they were even there.
4. For whatever reason one of you gives the other the slip.
That's it-not much challenge. But, man do people live for number 1. I don't know if it is the challenge or the fact that you just owned another living breathing person but it sure hits the deep down animal spot in my brain somewhere.
Pve dosen't work in a PvP environment because simply if someone is Pve'ing and you attack them you are forcing them to do something they are not wanting to do at the moment. Which in a way makes you their mom, and not in the cool owning them kind of way but in the pain the a$$ making them take out the trash griefer kind of way.
I have never understood how people enjoy killing people that have no chance of winning. I like my PvP man vs man ready for combat where the truely skilled person wins.
I would not, PvE or AI does not offer me enough of a challenge at this tech level, PvE gets boring and repetitive while PvP always has a chance to be something new and unexpected.
The real gaming challenges reside in PvP and it doesn't surprise me that most are not up for that challenge....much like real life people tend to be lazy and not want to challenge themselves save for the select few who do not fit that generalization.
Yes nowadays in most games. Now tell the guys who have been banging their head against some raid bosses out there for months before scoring the first kill that there is no challenge in pve. It has been watered down in many games, but there can be serious pve challenge and there are games out there to prove it.
On the other hand... To be honest, when I want to play PvP y play a shooter, or some console fight game. I don't think an mmo is the best environment for pvping.
I have faced many "hard" raid bosses or w/e and at the point the code is figured out or the trick then it's cake walk unless it's just slam damage. I have played many many games/MMO's and all PVE can be figured out and then it becomes old, easy and repetitive....like I said.
PvP remains to have the challenge and chance of being "unpredictable" since you are not dealing with scripted AI....
I consider myself a pretty big PvP fan, but I'd consider an all PvE game if it was really good. What's funny is even though I love PvP, I hate the average stereotypical PvPer who whines and complains and is obsessed with their ego. Yeah, maybe I get frustrated and angry sometimes, but I don't feel like the world is over when I lose. I also don't whine on the forums about how so and so is OP, I just deal with it. So yeah, the point I'm trying to make is that if there was a good enough PvE game to get me away from those kinds of people, I would definitely give it a go.
I would not, PvE or AI does not offer me enough of a challenge at this tech level, PvE gets boring and repetitive while PvP always has a chance to be something new and unexpected.
The real gaming challenges reside in PvP and it doesn't surprise me that most are not up for that challenge....much like real life people tend to be lazy and not want to challenge themselves save for the select few who do not fit that generalization.
The way most PvP games are setup now one of four outcomes occurs almost everytime.
1. You exterminate your opponent, as in owning him.
2. Your opponent exterminates you, as in owns you bad.
3. A third party owns one or both of you and you usually didn't know they were even there.
4. For whatever reason one of you gives the other the slip.
That's it-not much challenge. But, man do people live for number 1. I don't know if it is the challenge or the fact that you just owned another living breathing person but it sure hits the deep down animal spot in my brain somewhere.
Pve dosen't work in a PvP environment because simply if someone is Pve'ing and you attack them you are forcing them to do something they are not wanting to do at the moment. Which in a way makes you their mom, and not in the cool owning them kind of way but in the pain the a$$ making them take out the trash griefer kind of way.
I have never understood how people enjoy killing people that have no chance of winning. I like my PvP man vs man ready for combat where the truely skilled person wins.
Originally posted by Styij is in YELLOW
Once you figure out how to use the forums, then talk to me about other things you have yet to figure out.
The real gaming challenges reside in PvP and it doesn't surprise me that most are not up for that challenge....much like real life people tend to be lazy and not want to challenge themselves save for the select few who do not fit that generalization.
In theory yes your right, but in actuality your wrong. The majority of PvP mmo's consist of who has the bigger gank squad or who has the better equipment. With that theres just as much challenge in pvp as there is in keepin 20+ people doing what their suposed to be doing to down a big raId boss. And there are hard PvE bosses where one mistake can wipe a raid. WoW has simplified raids and given PvE raiding a bad name. Games like FFXI and EQ have had very challenging bosses.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i would perfer a PvE only mmorpg. thats one of the main resons i started playing city of heros back before it went pvp in issue 4 i think it was... alot less drama....
The real gaming challenges reside in PvP and it doesn't surprise me that most are not up for that challenge....much like real life people tend to be lazy and not want to challenge themselves save for the select few who do not fit that generalization.
In theory yes your right, but in actuality your wrong. The majority of PvP mmo's consist of who has the bigger gank squad or who has the better equipment. With that theres just as much challenge in pvp as there is in keepin 20+ people doing what their suposed to be doing to down a big raId boss. And there are hard PvE bosses where one mistake can wipe a raid. WoW has simplified raids and given PvE raiding a bad name. Games like FFXI and EQ have had very challenging bosses.
If I am wrong then how is it that my guild is known for doing more with less? We have won many battles with fewer numbers and even won matches with shittier gear.....I agree it's not common but it's also not theory since I have lived it for a decade now.
Didn't read all the responses but i think you can have a good mmo with no pvp, this from someone that plays mmos mostly. for the pvp. I however love playing vanguard. you just need other stuff to do besides endgame raids, i personally dont find those appealing. love crafting and other things though.
I would not, PvE or AI does not offer me enough of a challenge at this tech level, PvE gets boring and repetitive while PvP always has a chance to be something new and unexpected.
The real gaming challenges reside in PvP and it doesn't surprise me that most are not up for that challenge....much like real life people tend to be lazy and not want to challenge themselves save for the select few who do not fit that generalization.
The way most PvP games are setup now one of four outcomes occurs almost everytime.
1. You exterminate your opponent, as in owning him.
2. Your opponent exterminates you, as in owns you bad.
3. A third party owns one or both of you and you usually didn't know they were even there.
4. For whatever reason one of you gives the other the slip.
That's it-not much challenge. But, man do people live for number 1. I don't know if it is the challenge or the fact that you just owned another living breathing person but it sure hits the deep down animal spot in my brain somewhere.
Pve dosen't work in a PvP environment because simply if someone is Pve'ing and you attack them you are forcing them to do something they are not wanting to do at the moment. Which in a way makes you their mom, and not in the cool owning them kind of way but in the pain the a$$ making them take out the trash griefer kind of way.
I have never understood how people enjoy killing people that have no chance of winning. I like my PvP man vs man ready for combat where the truely skilled person wins.
Originally posted by Styij is in YELLOW
Once you figure out how to use the forums, then talk to me about other things you have yet to figure out.
Didn't realize it was in yellow, sorry about that. Excellent rebuttal and contribution to the discussion, about what I expected to hear from you.
PvP was never meant to collide with MMOs WoW started the trend among many other things and since then games fail... why? Because they are so focused on the competative PvP that it kills what an mmo stands for.. I don't wanna spend 15 dollars or more per month to gloat about "who has the bigger stick" the idea of an mmo since UO and lineage was to explore, live, admire, and socialize with the community. You add something like PvP to the mix you lose all that and it because a big dramafest. PvP should stay with RTS and FPS games, enough said.
UO had PvP, EQ1 had PvP, AC1 had PvP, DAoC is the mother of all PvP mmos. PvP has been part of mmorpgs since the dawn of mmorpgs.
I would also like to point out that what you posted as "the idea of an mmo" is purely your opinion and nothing more.
Finally, there is no such thing as a pure pve game, imo. All games have some form of PvP. Player vs. Player does not always equal direct combat, as there are many different forms of competition. If you play the economy game, you're trying to outbid or outsell your competition (other players), which is a form of PvP. If you're a crafter and there is competition for resources, that is PvP. If you're out questing or grinding on mobs in pve content and someone else comes along and is killing the same things, there might be a race to tag the mobs since there might be a limited amount in the area, again that's PvP.
There are many levels of PvP, and they are not always black and white. To compete is human nature. If you look at the very nature of any game ever created (not computer), it's almost always people vs. people. Chess, Checkers, Dominos, Backgammon, Poker, hell Hungry, Hungry, Hippos, and nearly every sport are all PvP games. Think about it.
I would not, PvE or AI does not offer me enough of a challenge at this tech level, PvE gets boring and repetitive while PvP always has a chance to be something new and unexpected.
The real gaming challenges reside in PvP and it doesn't surprise me that most are not up for that challenge....much like real life people tend to be lazy and not want to challenge themselves save for the select few who do not fit that generalization.
The way most PvP games are setup now one of four outcomes occurs almost everytime.
1. You exterminate your opponent, as in owning him.
2. Your opponent exterminates you, as in owns you bad.
3. A third party owns one or both of you and you usually didn't know they were even there.
4. For whatever reason one of you gives the other the slip.
That's it-not much challenge. But, man do people live for number 1. I don't know if it is the challenge or the fact that you just owned another living breathing person but it sure hits the deep down animal spot in my brain somewhere.
Pve dosen't work in a PvP environment because simply if someone is Pve'ing and you attack them you are forcing them to do something they are not wanting to do at the moment. Which in a way makes you their mom, and not in the cool owning them kind of way but in the pain the a$$ making them take out the trash griefer kind of way.
I have never understood how people enjoy killing people that have no chance of winning. I like my PvP man vs man ready for combat where the truely skilled person wins.
Originally posted by Styij is in YELLOW
Once you figure out how to use the forums, then talk to me about other things you have yet to figure out.
Didn't realize it was in yellow, sorry about that. Excellent rebuttal and contribution to the discussion, about what I expected to hear from you.
I made it yellow because you typed in my quote box (as if I said what you typed) but back at ya...bout what I was expecting from you (talking out your ass and can't figure out what is what on the basic end of things). Is there anything else i can teach you today?
YOU are way out of your element if you want to debate things with me it seems.
I would love a game that would have PvE exclusively; problem is, of course, the AI. If vast improvements were implemented on the AI then PvE could hold its own. My opinon is a bit different than some. I find several things wrong with PvP:
Causes developers to focus less on storyline and environmental flair to enhance game world immersion
When developers are out of ideas, they make end game PvP, less programming and you can grab those players that just desire to be better than one another. But, this takes away from the game in my opinion.
PvP is used to balance characters, if an AI was designed correctly, then you wouldn't need to do so.
I used to PvP, I used to LOVE PvP. The more games I played I found that the less I enjoyed PvP. I grew out of it. Soon I was just playing to be immersed in a storyline that would drag me from beginning to end. Well, not many games do this well. WoW does an OK job in my opinion. Warhammer, well, that went horribly. AoC, I lasted a week, the game was poorly implemented.
What does PvP do that is GOOD for the gaming community? Until they get a good AI, it is the best method for character balancing. That is, till they go to a classless design, then it would be skills that would be more important. This I wait for impatiently.
Another plus is that it give the developers a look at how to create an effective AI. Lets be serious, how is it that the most complex AI is used to play Chess. I would adore a game that made me think instead of "press 1, press 2, press 3" while at the same time I sit and watch "The Smoking Gun Presents: Some Idiots part 19". Instead, we are faced with enemies that meander on set paths and, as you walk by, may, MAY attack you.
AI improvements that would have to take place would be immense. The AI would have to know all moves and the counters for them. Enemies that attack in a set pattern are a waste of time. Sorry, when you can put a timer on an attack, your AI is flawed. The attacks from the opponents should come just like they would from a normal player. That would be an amazing break through and would cause the games to go from "Please press "X" now" to "OMG, he parried my ultimate attack, let me look at the AI's weakness and seek an opening..."
Games are getting too easy, PvP is not the answer. Fix the AI and make people work for it again. That being said, I give an emphatic YES, it can be done and if done right with a great AI, I would play and applaud.
I would enjoy a PvE game. I have enjoyed many PvP battles among which DAOC was my favorite, but what spoils it are the griefers and whinners and the constant complaining that accompanies PvP.
I like playing with others so grouping would be a must, but a PvE only game would be interesting.
Comments
Sure, but the difference is that an AI always reacts the same ways, whereas a human might do stupid illogical things, make mistakes, etc, leading to an unpredictable situation
Guess you've never experienced the awesomeness that was DaOC's pvp sieging, even the battlegrounds were great fun, despite the gank trains
Also Planetside, which I'd consider an mmofps, had great pvp battles.. 100% pvp too
yes i would... pvp is something that i usually avoid... i only do it when there is nothing else to do in a game, and in games like wow there is always something to do
I played Everquest when DoAC was around, I couldn't grasp the concept of PvP in a massive online roleplaying world cause then it just seems to take the massive and rpg out of the game.
I will however say that being a loyal supporter of Fallen Earth, it being very PvE oriented it seems to have the most interesting approach to PvP of any current mmo. Controled arenas in nearly every zone + bloodsports, and being that gear doesn't seem to be the contributing factor of a "win" vs "lose" since there are no "LEET" drops only what you yourself craft or buy from other crafters.
I would not, PvE or AI does not offer me enough of a challenge at this tech level, PvE gets boring and repetitive while PvP always has a chance to be something new and unexpected.
The real gaming challenges reside in PvP and it doesn't surprise me that most are not up for that challenge....much like real life people tend to be lazy and not want to challenge themselves save for the select few who do not fit that generalization.
PIRATE LORDS
Oh dear, someone else who thinks WoW invented the genre. There's scarcely an original feature in WoW, the biggest reason for its success is that it took everything that worked in other games, polished them up, and released them all in one game. PvP existed in MMO's since the very beginning of MMO's, several years before WoW was conceived let alone developed. I can't remember off-hand if the Realm and Meridian 59 had PvP, but UO, EQ, AC, AO and DAoC certainly did and they were the first generation MMO's in terms of wide appeal and commercial success.
Yes nowadays in most games. Now tell the guys who have been banging their head against some raid bosses out there for months before scoring the first kill that there is no challenge in pve. It has been watered down in many games, but there can be serious pve challenge and there are games out there to prove it.
On the other hand... To be honest, when I want to play PvP y play a shooter, or some console fight game. I don't think an mmo is the best environment for pvping.
I have faced many "hard" raid bosses or w/e and at the point the code is figured out or the trick then it's cake walk unless it's just slam damage. I have played many many games/MMO's and all PVE can be figured out and then it becomes old, easy and repetitive....like I said.
PvP remains to have the challenge and chance of being "unpredictable" since you are not dealing with scripted AI....
PIRATE LORDS
yes
I consider myself a pretty big PvP fan, but I'd consider an all PvE game if it was really good. What's funny is even though I love PvP, I hate the average stereotypical PvPer who whines and complains and is obsessed with their ego. Yeah, maybe I get frustrated and angry sometimes, but I don't feel like the world is over when I lose. I also don't whine on the forums about how so and so is OP, I just deal with it. So yeah, the point I'm trying to make is that if there was a good enough PvE game to get me away from those kinds of people, I would definitely give it a go.
Absolutely. In fact, I can only hope they make great games with 100% PVE focus in mind; hopefully FFXIV will fulfill that necessity.
Originally posted by Styij is in YELLOW
Once you figure out how to use the forums, then talk to me about other things you have yet to figure out.
PIRATE LORDS
In theory yes your right, but in actuality your wrong. The majority of PvP mmo's consist of who has the bigger gank squad or who has the better equipment. With that theres just as much challenge in pvp as there is in keepin 20+ people doing what their suposed to be doing to down a big raId boss. And there are hard PvE bosses where one mistake can wipe a raid. WoW has simplified raids and given PvE raiding a bad name. Games like FFXI and EQ have had very challenging bosses.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i would perfer a PvE only mmorpg. thats one of the main resons i started playing city of heros back before it went pvp in issue 4 i think it was... alot less drama....
If I am wrong then how is it that my guild is known for doing more with less? We have won many battles with fewer numbers and even won matches with shittier gear.....I agree it's not common but it's also not theory since I have lived it for a decade now.
PIRATE LORDS
Didn't read all the responses but i think you can have a good mmo with no pvp, this from someone that plays mmos mostly. for the pvp. I however love playing vanguard. you just need other stuff to do besides endgame raids, i personally dont find those appealing. love crafting and other things though.
Didn't realize it was in yellow, sorry about that. Excellent rebuttal and contribution to the discussion, about what I expected to hear from you.
UO had PvP, EQ1 had PvP, AC1 had PvP, DAoC is the mother of all PvP mmos. PvP has been part of mmorpgs since the dawn of mmorpgs.
I would also like to point out that what you posted as "the idea of an mmo" is purely your opinion and nothing more.
Finally, there is no such thing as a pure pve game, imo. All games have some form of PvP. Player vs. Player does not always equal direct combat, as there are many different forms of competition. If you play the economy game, you're trying to outbid or outsell your competition (other players), which is a form of PvP. If you're a crafter and there is competition for resources, that is PvP. If you're out questing or grinding on mobs in pve content and someone else comes along and is killing the same things, there might be a race to tag the mobs since there might be a limited amount in the area, again that's PvP.
There are many levels of PvP, and they are not always black and white. To compete is human nature. If you look at the very nature of any game ever created (not computer), it's almost always people vs. people. Chess, Checkers, Dominos, Backgammon, Poker, hell Hungry, Hungry, Hippos, and nearly every sport are all PvP games. Think about it.
I made it yellow because you typed in my quote box (as if I said what you typed) but back at ya...bout what I was expecting from you (talking out your ass and can't figure out what is what on the basic end of things). Is there anything else i can teach you today?
YOU are way out of your element if you want to debate things with me it seems.
PIRATE LORDS
I would love a game that would have PvE exclusively; problem is, of course, the AI. If vast improvements were implemented on the AI then PvE could hold its own. My opinon is a bit different than some. I find several things wrong with PvP:
Causes developers to focus less on storyline and environmental flair to enhance game world immersion
When developers are out of ideas, they make end game PvP, less programming and you can grab those players that just desire to be better than one another. But, this takes away from the game in my opinion.
PvP is used to balance characters, if an AI was designed correctly, then you wouldn't need to do so.
I used to PvP, I used to LOVE PvP. The more games I played I found that the less I enjoyed PvP. I grew out of it. Soon I was just playing to be immersed in a storyline that would drag me from beginning to end. Well, not many games do this well. WoW does an OK job in my opinion. Warhammer, well, that went horribly. AoC, I lasted a week, the game was poorly implemented.
What does PvP do that is GOOD for the gaming community? Until they get a good AI, it is the best method for character balancing. That is, till they go to a classless design, then it would be skills that would be more important. This I wait for impatiently.
Another plus is that it give the developers a look at how to create an effective AI. Lets be serious, how is it that the most complex AI is used to play Chess. I would adore a game that made me think instead of "press 1, press 2, press 3" while at the same time I sit and watch "The Smoking Gun Presents: Some Idiots part 19". Instead, we are faced with enemies that meander on set paths and, as you walk by, may, MAY attack you.
AI improvements that would have to take place would be immense. The AI would have to know all moves and the counters for them. Enemies that attack in a set pattern are a waste of time. Sorry, when you can put a timer on an attack, your AI is flawed. The attacks from the opponents should come just like they would from a normal player. That would be an amazing break through and would cause the games to go from "Please press "X" now" to "OMG, he parried my ultimate attack, let me look at the AI's weakness and seek an opening..."
Games are getting too easy, PvP is not the answer. Fix the AI and make people work for it again. That being said, I give an emphatic YES, it can be done and if done right with a great AI, I would play and applaud.
WinnTech
Bravo sir!
I would enjoy a PvE game. I have enjoyed many PvP battles among which DAOC was my favorite, but what spoils it are the griefers and whinners and the constant complaining that accompanies PvP.
I like playing with others so grouping would be a must, but a PvE only game would be interesting.