The OP asked a simple question; “Would I play an MMO without PvP?” Answer; Yes. Why? Because of the number of people calling themselves “PvP-ers” (or whatever you want to call them) that attack and kill other players for no apparent reason other than they can.
Not that I really want to get into the PvP vs. PvE argument, but how did this thread degenerate into yet another play style bashing extravaganza?
Back to the topic posed by the OP. I rarely PvP simply because I don’t enjoy PvP. Yes, there is the thrill of beating another person. But that thrill is no less when defeating a boss with a group half the recommended size. That said; PvE can become very predictable the tenth time you kill the same boss using the same AI they used the first time. Then again, most PvP can, over a period of time, become so standardized that the same can said for it. How many times can you kill a magi using the same skills and tactics?
I am very glad the OP did not ask how long I would be playing a PvE only MMO. I enjoy it when PvP-ers come to the PvE-ers looking to work on titles and keep getting there newb butts kicked because they have no clue what is going on.
Exactly...and when this method is translated to PvE, AI is a cake walk. The challenge starts with coodinating people to work together fluidly and then finding other groups with this trend to fight against. AI is no substitute and has yet to offer that kind of challenge.
AI ramblings are funny. A good script will defeat the vast majority of players. But really, who wants an NPC (or NPC party) that is actually designed to win?
Your last sentence says it all, AI in MMO's will always be designed to figure out and be defeated (that's the point of PvE)...
The same can never be said about PvP (that's the real challenge of an MMO IMHO), since anyone can just get the same PvE experience from PvE in a solo play game.
And really, what is the point of an all PvE MMO?? If you want to play with a group vs PvE then just design a game that is all instanced PvE with no open worlds and only have a menu with options to craft-group-or sell. Then have the group form in their own little instance when the group is all ready and with crafting and selling there really isn't any reason for a game world unless you like running around and picking flowers or something.
Also, if there is just a PvE game world and it's popular then most likely 20-30% of it's population will be bots and gold sellers spamming you left and right and mindlessly stealing PvE mobs, especially any of the mobs that drop the more valuable itmes.
Yeah, pretty much. AI will always be some purposfully beatable script. Well, I wouldn't say that it always will be but there is certainly little incentive to build something other than a basic, unadaptive script. However, that does not mean it is not challenging or enjoyable to the people that like PvE.
However, there is more than one way to do these things. Direct pvp or basic pve do not always have to remain the only ways to do things. Can always combine the two. They are not mutually exclusive. PvP through PvE and PvE through PvP for example.
Almost all established game genres are untouched by MMOs. Lots of room to mix things up in already established mechanics.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Exactly...and when this method is translated to PvE, AI is a cake walk. The challenge starts with coodinating people to work together fluidly and then finding other groups with this trend to fight against. AI is no substitute and has yet to offer that kind of challenge.
AI ramblings are funny. A good script will defeat the vast majority of players. But really, who wants an NPC (or NPC party) that is actually designed to win?
Your last sentence says it all, AI in MMO's will always be designed to figure out and be defeated (that's the point of PvE)...
The same can never be said about PvP (that's the real challenge of an MMO IMHO), since anyone can just get the same PvE experience from PvE in a solo play game.
And really, what is the point of an all PvE MMO?? If you want to play with a group vs PvE then just design a game that is all instanced PvE with no open worlds and only have a menu with options to craft-group-or sell. Then have the group form in their own little instance when the group is all ready and with crafting and selling there really isn't any reason for a game world unless you like running around and picking flowers or something.
Also, if there is just a PvE game world and it's popular then most likely 20-30% of it's population will be bots and gold sellers spamming you left and right and mindlessly stealing PvE mobs, especially any of the mobs that drop the more valuable itmes.
You cant win this argument. Just like I cant win it. This isnt about pvp being better than Pve or pve being better than pvp. This is about what you as a gamer like! Once you come to grasp the concept that there is a wide varaity of gamers out there you will see that some dont enjoy pvp, while other prefere PvP. People like what they like for w/e reason theres no need to try and prove somebody with a different opinion wrong. It will get you no where.
We might as well argue over which is better Pizza or Spaghetti.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
Exactly...and when this method is translated to PvE, AI is a cake walk. The challenge starts with coodinating people to work together fluidly and then finding other groups with this trend to fight against. AI is no substitute and has yet to offer that kind of challenge.
AI ramblings are funny. A good script will defeat the vast majority of players. But really, who wants an NPC (or NPC party) that is actually designed to win?
Your last sentence says it all, AI in MMO's will always be designed to figure out and be defeated (that's the point of PvE)...
The same can never be said about PvP (that's the real challenge of an MMO IMHO), since anyone can just get the same PvE experience from PvE in a solo play game.
And really, what is the point of an all PvE MMO?? If you want to play with a group vs PvE then just design a game that is all instanced PvE with no open worlds and only have a menu with options to craft-group-or sell. Then have the group form in their own little instance when the group is all ready and with crafting and selling there really isn't any reason for a game world unless you like running around and picking flowers or something.
Also, if there is just a PvE game world and it's popular then most likely 20-30% of it's population will be bots and gold sellers spamming you left and right and mindlessly stealing PvE mobs, especially any of the mobs that drop the more valuable itmes.
You cant win this argument. Just like I cant win it. This isnt about pvp being better than Pve or pve being better than pvp. This is about what you as a gamer like! Once you come to grasp the concept that there is a wide varaity of gamers out there you will see that some dont enjoy pvp, while other prefere PvP. People like what they like for w/e reason theres no need to try and prove somebody with a different opinion wrong. It will get you no where.
We might as well argue over which is better Pizza or Spaghetti.
I stated something simllar but simpler on page 51 in my reply to Winntech.
Yeah, pretty much. AI will always be some purposfully beatable script. Well, I wouldn't say that it always will be but there is certainly little incentive to build something other than a basic, unadaptive script. However, that does not mean it is not challenging or enjoyable to the people that like PvE.
However, there is more than one way to do these things. Direct pvp or basic pve do not always have to remain the only ways to do things. Can always combine the two. They are not mutually exclusive. PvP through PvE and PvE through PvP for example.
Almost all established game genres are untouched by MMOs. Lots of room to mix things up in already established mechanics.
They could at least do the AI more random, have a bunch of different scripted things and the boss gets his when he spawns or something.
Many FPS games have very good AI but MMO AIs tend to be really dumb and predictable. I really like PvE but I would like it even more if it was a bit less easy to guess the mobs next move. And for the same of the gods, add a random ability or something to nameds so they not always are exactly the same. It would lessen the grind when you do a dungeon multiple times.
I voted yes I would play a full PVE, no PVP. I personally don't do PVP because I am awful at it. Kind of hard on the ego to constantly loose. Gives one a complex.. LOL. I have NP with those that do and there is a huge portion of gamers who totally enjoy it. It almost has to be included in some form for any MMO is be popular, as long as I don't have to PVP.
yes, i would for most pvp games are not really pvp they are mostly person vs gang if it was a fair pvp game sure where your skill really matered , but then most pvp'er would not for they go for the ganging up or attacking lower players not a fair fight were skill judges the winner..
Yes, but it would have to be a helluva good game. I don't pvp every day or even every week in games, but I'd miss it if there was no pvp outlet at all. I'd probably have to play two games, this hypothetical helluva game with no pvp, and a side game to get my pvp fix.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
I would like to point out here that PvP doesn't necessarily mean "competition" as i see some of the posters, assume. Many, if not most, modern MMOs have shown us that PvP is about team-play, coordination and group dynamics. I am talking about games like Guild Wars, Warhammer Online, Darkfall and possibly many others i don't know.
It's not always about 1vs1.
In that context, yes i want my MMO to have both.
"Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."
I do not mind PvP in the context of the game .. as in Warhammer or Dark age of Camelot .. where I CHOOSE to enter in pvp as a choice to HELP the Realm sort of thing ..
I Absolutley will NOT play a Gank PvP Game where higher players or Groups of Players are allowed to Prey on Newbies or even seasoned players ...
No matter the Penalty for Ganing in PVP games ... the Penalty soon becomes the BADGE Of Honor for the Gankers ... Rather then the Badge of shame that the developers planned it to be, to prevent Ganking to happen at all in the PVP world.
Go look for your Full PVP game worlds .. you will see them to be the lowest populated places on the Planet and destined to fail soon as the new box smell wears off.
Look to the stars to know HE is with us. HE hung them as markers, of times and of seasons.
I would definately play a PVE only game as long as there was at least some good co-op opportunities. Basically I look at it like playing a great single player game with the ability to play with others and a world that is impacted by the player base decisions.
While I understand that GW2 will have PVP the PVE sounds like it could be the game I am referring too.
I play almost all the MMO's as PvE only. Only in DAOC did I really enjoy PvP.
And creature AI is mostly dumb, but Ryzom has the best AI. In Atys, the creatures chase and eat each other, they migrate based on the seasons, they sleep and roam, etc. A Yubo may come up, sniff you, and then pee on your leg!
To me, the most MMORPG fun is when a group has to cooperate and use their skills wisely in order to beat a superior enemy.
It's been proved time & time again that for the average mmorpg that in terms of populations players spend far more time out of PVP doing other things like PVE or the economy than in it, probably of the ratio 80% - 20% PVP.
So when designing any mmo it must primarily have a good PVE content with lots of safe areas & PVP should be designed around balanced combat mechanics. Also the risk/loss must be resonable with not too harsh death penalties.
Players also need achievement paths that cater for both PVE & PVP players so that cater for differing play-styles & all age groups.
71 Month vet in CoX. Only did PvP while beta testing CoV and some after CoV launched. Still working on the PvP badges... and by working I mean I don't have them and probably won't any time soon. If I want PvP I'll play a FPS or a Fighter.
Sure I`d play it if the pve was designed in the way I`d like. I like playing with other people but most mmorpg`s arent designed well to pve in a group. People are strangely anti-social lol, and don`t group unless they have to. Like for raids in WoW, and in AoC you kindof have to quest in a group in certain areas or you will get ganked. Other than that it`s quite rare. So... if I want to play with actual humans, I don`t really have a choice but to pvp in most games. *shrug* Not that I care for one or the other, but I usually find myself doing pvp more often.
I am happy to see the people proven wrong who usually say something like: "The majority of the player base wants PvP and PvE only games can only fail." The results are about how I thought the ratio would be...
and this is a poll aimed at VERY rabid fans of the genre (visiting and subscribed to a fansite)
I am happy to see the people proven wrong who usually say something like: "The majority of the player base wants PvP and PvE only games can only fail." The results are about how I thought the ratio would be...
and this is a poll aimed at VERY rabid fans of the genre (visiting and subscribed to a fansite)
I didn't read all 50+ pages but I don't recall anyone saying that...
I am happy to see the people proven wrong who usually say something like: "The majority of the player base wants PvP and PvE only games can only fail." The results are about how I thought the ratio would be...
and this is a poll aimed at VERY rabid fans of the genre (visiting and subscribed to a fansite)
Yeah and the results are skewed in favor of PvP.
I mean the casual majority doesn't even know that this site exists not to mention bothering with voting and posting in this thread.
I think that the real numbers would be more like 95% for PvE and 5% for PvP.
But as you said the PvPers are VERY vocal.
All those memories will be lost in time, like tears in the rain.
I don't mind pvp, but if i doesn't exist, I can live without it. I prefer actually then a pvp-centric game like Warhammer or Darkfall. Otherwise, I am fine with 100% PVE in WoW, etc. (err, I mean, playing existing games with pve only).
Comments
The OP asked a simple question; “Would I play an MMO without PvP?” Answer; Yes. Why? Because of the number of people calling themselves “PvP-ers” (or whatever you want to call them) that attack and kill other players for no apparent reason other than they can.
Not that I really want to get into the PvP vs. PvE argument, but how did this thread degenerate into yet another play style bashing extravaganza?
Back to the topic posed by the OP. I rarely PvP simply because I don’t enjoy PvP. Yes, there is the thrill of beating another person. But that thrill is no less when defeating a boss with a group half the recommended size. That said; PvE can become very predictable the tenth time you kill the same boss using the same AI they used the first time. Then again, most PvP can, over a period of time, become so standardized that the same can said for it. How many times can you kill a magi using the same skills and tactics?
I am very glad the OP did not ask how long I would be playing a PvE only MMO. I enjoy it when PvP-ers come to the PvE-ers looking to work on titles and keep getting there newb butts kicked because they have no clue what is going on.
Yeah, pretty much. AI will always be some purposfully beatable script. Well, I wouldn't say that it always will be but there is certainly little incentive to build something other than a basic, unadaptive script. However, that does not mean it is not challenging or enjoyable to the people that like PvE.
However, there is more than one way to do these things. Direct pvp or basic pve do not always have to remain the only ways to do things. Can always combine the two. They are not mutually exclusive. PvP through PvE and PvE through PvP for example.
Almost all established game genres are untouched by MMOs. Lots of room to mix things up in already established mechanics.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
You cant win this argument. Just like I cant win it. This isnt about pvp being better than Pve or pve being better than pvp. This is about what you as a gamer like! Once you come to grasp the concept that there is a wide varaity of gamers out there you will see that some dont enjoy pvp, while other prefere PvP. People like what they like for w/e reason theres no need to try and prove somebody with a different opinion wrong. It will get you no where.
We might as well argue over which is better Pizza or Spaghetti.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
Obviously Pizza.
Cake has entered the thread.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
I stated something simllar but simpler on page 51 in my reply to Winntech.
PIRATE LORDS
They could at least do the AI more random, have a bunch of different scripted things and the boss gets his when he spawns or something.
Many FPS games have very good AI but MMO AIs tend to be really dumb and predictable. I really like PvE but I would like it even more if it was a bit less easy to guess the mobs next move. And for the same of the gods, add a random ability or something to nameds so they not always are exactly the same. It would lessen the grind when you do a dungeon multiple times.
are you kidding me? thats stupid of course pizza is better then spaghetti.
East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011
--------------------
Current game: DAOC
Games played and quit: L2, PlanetSide, RF Online, GuildWars, SWG, COH/COV, Vanguard, LOTRO, WoW, WW2 Online, FFXI, Auto-Assault, EVE Online, ShadowBane, RYL, Rappelz, Last Chaos, Myst Online, POTBS, EQ2, Warhammer Online, AoC, Aion, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Allods, Darkfall.
Waiting on: Earthrise
Names: Citio, Goldie, Sportacus
I voted yes I would play a full PVE, no PVP. I personally don't do PVP because I am awful at it. Kind of hard on the ego to constantly loose. Gives one a complex.. LOL. I have NP with those that do and there is a huge portion of gamers who totally enjoy it. It almost has to be included in some form for any MMO is be popular, as long as I don't have to PVP.
yes, i would for most pvp games are not really pvp they are mostly person vs gang if it was a fair pvp game sure where your skill really matered , but then most pvp'er would not for they go for the ganging up or attacking lower players not a fair fight were skill judges the winner..
Pizza is actually better than spaghetti, that is true.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Yes, but it would have to be a helluva good game. I don't pvp every day or even every week in games, but I'd miss it if there was no pvp outlet at all. I'd probably have to play two games, this hypothetical helluva game with no pvp, and a side game to get my pvp fix.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
SWG had, and possibly still has, the best PvE game that has ever existed.
PvE=Economyy, SWG had the best Economy ever in terms of PvE. SWG did have PvP but it was seondary to PvE.
Pre-Cu had the best PvE/Economy any game has ever had.
So... A troll walks into the thread and says "Hey guys how's the wheather? Whatcha all talking about? PvE/PvP, the heck is that?" =D
I would like to point out here that PvP doesn't necessarily mean "competition" as i see some of the posters, assume. Many, if not most, modern MMOs have shown us that PvP is about team-play, coordination and group dynamics. I am talking about games like Guild Wars, Warhammer Online, Darkfall and possibly many others i don't know.
It's not always about 1vs1.
In that context, yes i want my MMO to have both.
"Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."
I do not mind PvP in the context of the game .. as in Warhammer or Dark age of Camelot .. where I CHOOSE to enter in pvp as a choice to HELP the Realm sort of thing ..
I Absolutley will NOT play a Gank PvP Game where higher players or Groups of Players are allowed to Prey on Newbies or even seasoned players ...
No matter the Penalty for Ganing in PVP games ... the Penalty soon becomes the BADGE Of Honor for the Gankers ... Rather then the Badge of shame that the developers planned it to be, to prevent Ganking to happen at all in the PVP world.
Go look for your Full PVP game worlds .. you will see them to be the lowest populated places on the Planet and destined to fail soon as the new box smell wears off.
Look to the stars to know HE is with us. HE hung them as markers, of times and of seasons.
I would definately play a PVE only game as long as there was at least some good co-op opportunities. Basically I look at it like playing a great single player game with the ability to play with others and a world that is impacted by the player base decisions.
While I understand that GW2 will have PVP the PVE sounds like it could be the game I am referring too.
I play almost all the MMO's as PvE only. Only in DAOC did I really enjoy PvP.
And creature AI is mostly dumb, but Ryzom has the best AI. In Atys, the creatures chase and eat each other, they migrate based on the seasons, they sleep and roam, etc. A Yubo may come up, sniff you, and then pee on your leg!
To me, the most MMORPG fun is when a group has to cooperate and use their skills wisely in order to beat a superior enemy.
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
It's been proved time & time again that for the average mmorpg that in terms of populations players spend far more time out of PVP doing other things like PVE or the economy than in it, probably of the ratio 80% - 20% PVP.
So when designing any mmo it must primarily have a good PVE content with lots of safe areas & PVP should be designed around balanced combat mechanics. Also the risk/loss must be resonable with not too harsh death penalties.
Players also need achievement paths that cater for both PVE & PVP players so that cater for differing play-styles & all age groups.
At least that's my 5 cents worth.
71 Month vet in CoX. Only did PvP while beta testing CoV and some after CoV launched. Still working on the PvP badges... and by working I mean I don't have them and probably won't any time soon. If I want PvP I'll play a FPS or a Fighter.
Sure I`d play it if the pve was designed in the way I`d like. I like playing with other people but most mmorpg`s arent designed well to pve in a group. People are strangely anti-social lol, and don`t group unless they have to. Like for raids in WoW, and in AoC you kindof have to quest in a group in certain areas or you will get ganked. Other than that it`s quite rare. So... if I want to play with actual humans, I don`t really have a choice but to pvp in most games. *shrug* Not that I care for one or the other, but I usually find myself doing pvp more often.
I am happy to see the people proven wrong who usually say something like: "The majority of the player base wants PvP and PvE only games can only fail." The results are about how I thought the ratio would be...
and this is a poll aimed at VERY rabid fans of the genre (visiting and subscribed to a fansite)
I didn't read all 50+ pages but I don't recall anyone saying that...
PIRATE LORDS
Yeah and the results are skewed in favor of PvP.
I mean the casual majority doesn't even know that this site exists not to mention bothering with voting and posting in this thread.
I think that the real numbers would be more like 95% for PvE and 5% for PvP.
But as you said the PvPers are VERY vocal.
All those memories will be lost in time, like tears in the rain.
I don't mind pvp, but if i doesn't exist, I can live without it. I prefer actually then a pvp-centric game like Warhammer or Darkfall. Otherwise, I am fine with 100% PVE in WoW, etc. (err, I mean, playing existing games with pve only).