-- The game would need to have unpredictable AI (no phases on bosses. regular mobs werent only there for slaughter) I feel most people have a problem with the lack of pvp because monsters do NOT provide a challenge in most games. Must be fixed.
-- Crafting based economy is a MUST for me. I'm totally for materials dropping from world bosses, but crafters must combine them in the end.
-- Character development outside of gear upgrades is huge. I want to level skills, build my own house, carve my own piece of the world, etc. I also dont want a cap on how many I wish to level. It takes time, resources and the willpower to do it, but damnit im going to do it.
-- A heavy political based system would substitute a pvp system in my eyes if done right. City vs City (nation vs nation, clan vs clan) Race vs Race is -okay- but makes for boring comrades. FFXI had a good idea with nation vs nation. Area with most influence gained points redeemed for items as well as vendors who only sold goods if that area was in control. Could build off that idea to make it far more complex.
I would not, PvE or AI does not offer me enough of a challenge at this tech level, PvE gets boring and repetitive while PvP always has a chance to be something new and unexpected.
The real gaming challenges reside in PvP and it doesn't surprise me that most are not up for that challenge....much like real life people tend to be lazy and not want to challenge themselves save for the select few who do not fit that generalization.
The way most PvP games are setup now one of four outcomes occurs almost everytime.
1. You exterminate your opponent, as in owning him.
2. Your opponent exterminates you, as in owns you bad.
3. A third party owns one or both of you and you usually didn't know they were even there.
4. For whatever reason one of you gives the other the slip.
That's it-not much challenge. But, man do people live for number 1. I don't know if it is the challenge or the fact that you just owned another living breathing person but it sure hits the deep down animal spot in my brain somewhere.
Pve dosen't work in a PvP environment because simply if someone is Pve'ing and you attack them you are forcing them to do something they are not wanting to do at the moment. Which in a way makes you their mom, and not in the cool owning them kind of way but in the pain the a$$ making them take out the trash griefer kind of way.
I have never understood how people enjoy killing people that have no chance of winning. I like my PvP man vs man ready for combat where the truely skilled person wins.
Originally posted by Styij is in YELLOW
Once you figure out how to use the forums, then talk to me about other things you have yet to figure out.
Didn't realize it was in yellow, sorry about that. Excellent rebuttal and contribution to the discussion, about what I expected to hear from you.
I made it yellow because you typed in my quote box (as if I said what you typed) but back at ya...bout what I was expecting from you (talking out your ass and can't figure out what is what on the basic end of things). Is there anything else i can teach you today?
YOU are way out of your element if you want to debate things with me it seems.
Take no notice of him, Styij, he's just proving that hardcore PvP'ers tend to have over-inflated opinions of themselves and is providing perfect evidence why an awful lot of gamers wouldn't just be willing to play a PvE-only game, they'd positively welcome the chance to do so.
I would love a game that would have PvE exclusively; problem is, of course, the AI. If vast improvements were implemented on the AI then PvE could hold its own. My opinon is a bit different than some. I find several things wrong with PvP:
Causes developers to focus less on storyline and environmental flair to enhance game world immersion
When developers are out of ideas, they make end game PvP, less programming and you can grab those players that just desire to be better than one another. But, this takes away from the game in my opinion.
PvP is used to balance characters, if an AI was designed correctly, then you wouldn't need to do so.
I used to PvP, I used to LOVE PvP. The more games I played I found that the less I enjoyed PvP. I grew out of it. Soon I was just playing to be immersed in a storyline that would drag me from beginning to end. Well, not many games do this well. WoW does an OK job in my opinion. Warhammer, well, that went horribly. AoC, I lasted a week, the game was poorly implemented.
What does PvP do that is GOOD for the gaming community? Until they get a good AI, it is the best method for character balancing. That is, till they go to a classless design, then it would be skills that would be more important. This I wait for impatiently.
Another plus is that it give the developers a look at how to create an effective AI. Lets be serious, how is it that the most complex AI is used to play Chess. I would adore a game that made me think instead of "press 1, press 2, press 3" while at the same time I sit and watch "The Smoking Gun Presents: Some Idiots part 19". Instead, we are faced with enemies that meander on set paths and, as you walk by, may, MAY attack you.
AI improvements that would have to take place would be immense. The AI would have to know all moves and the counters for them. Enemies that attack in a set pattern are a waste of time. Sorry, when you can put a timer on an attack, your AI is flawed. The attacks from the opponents should come just like they would from a normal player. That would be an amazing break through and would cause the games to go from "Please press "X" now" to "OMG, he parried my ultimate attack, let me look at the AI's weakness and seek an opening..."
Games are getting too easy, PvP is not the answer. Fix the AI and make people work for it again. That being said, I give an emphatic YES, it can be done and if done right with a great AI, I would play and applaud.
I can appreciate your desire...you want to be told a story.
Some players want to be the story, they want the world changed by them and they don't want to be funneled into the same NPC storyline that everone else is being lead around by the nose by. IMHO it's more broing scripted AI repetition that just gets older because it's all basically the same.
For me it's just the opposite, the more I play the less I am impressed by scripted NPC stories and fighting.
I would not, PvE or AI does not offer me enough of a challenge at this tech level, PvE gets boring and repetitive while PvP always has a chance to be something new and unexpected.
The real gaming challenges reside in PvP and it doesn't surprise me that most are not up for that challenge....much like real life people tend to be lazy and not want to challenge themselves save for the select few who do not fit that generalization.
The way most PvP games are setup now one of four outcomes occurs almost everytime.
1. You exterminate your opponent, as in owning him.
2. Your opponent exterminates you, as in owns you bad.
3. A third party owns one or both of you and you usually didn't know they were even there.
4. For whatever reason one of you gives the other the slip.
That's it-not much challenge. But, man do people live for number 1. I don't know if it is the challenge or the fact that you just owned another living breathing person but it sure hits the deep down animal spot in my brain somewhere.
Pve dosen't work in a PvP environment because simply if someone is Pve'ing and you attack them you are forcing them to do something they are not wanting to do at the moment. Which in a way makes you their mom, and not in the cool owning them kind of way but in the pain the a$$ making them take out the trash griefer kind of way.
I have never understood how people enjoy killing people that have no chance of winning. I like my PvP man vs man ready for combat where the truely skilled person wins.
Originally posted by Styij is in YELLOW
Once you figure out how to use the forums, then talk to me about other things you have yet to figure out.
Didn't realize it was in yellow, sorry about that. Excellent rebuttal and contribution to the discussion, about what I expected to hear from you.
I made it yellow because you typed in my quote box (as if I said what you typed) but back at ya...bout what I was expecting from you (talking out your ass and can't figure out what is what on the basic end of things). Is there anything else i can teach you today?
YOU are way out of your element if you want to debate things with me it seems.
Take no notice of him, Styij, he's just proving that hardcore PvP'ers tend to have over-inflated opinions of themselves and is providing perfect evidence why an awful lot of gamers wouldn't just be willing to play a PvE-only game, they'd positively welcome the chance to do so.
And you back the one who doesn't even know if they typed in yellow or not and couldn't figure out how to quote properly before they stated mouthing off pertending to know a lil something something about other complexities
I would not, PvE or AI does not offer me enough of a challenge at this tech level, PvE gets boring and repetitive while PvP always has a chance to be something new and unexpected.
The real gaming challenges reside in PvP and it doesn't surprise me that most are not up for that challenge....much like real life people tend to be lazy and not want to challenge themselves save for the select few who do not fit that generalization.
The way most PvP games are setup now one of four outcomes occurs almost everytime.
1. You exterminate your opponent, as in owning him.
2. Your opponent exterminates you, as in owns you bad.
3. A third party owns one or both of you and you usually didn't know they were even there.
4. For whatever reason one of you gives the other the slip.
That's it-not much challenge. But, man do people live for number 1. I don't know if it is the challenge or the fact that you just owned another living breathing person but it sure hits the deep down animal spot in my brain somewhere.
Pve dosen't work in a PvP environment because simply if someone is Pve'ing and you attack them you are forcing them to do something they are not wanting to do at the moment. Which in a way makes you their mom, and not in the cool owning them kind of way but in the pain the a$$ making them take out the trash griefer kind of way.
I have never understood how people enjoy killing people that have no chance of winning. I like my PvP man vs man ready for combat where the truely skilled person wins.
Originally posted by Styij is in YELLOW
Once you figure out how to use the forums, then talk to me about other things you have yet to figure out.
Didn't realize it was in yellow, sorry about that. Excellent rebuttal and contribution to the discussion, about what I expected to hear from you.
I made it yellow because you typed in my quote box (as if I said what you typed) but back at ya...bout what I was expecting from you (talking out your ass and can't figure out what is what on the basic end of things). Is there anything else i can teach you today?
YOU are way out of your element if you want to debate things with me it seems.
Take no notice of him, Styij, he's just proving that hardcore PvP'ers tend to have over-inflated opinions of themselves and is providing perfect evidence why an awful lot of gamers wouldn't just be willing to play a PvE-only game, they'd positively welcome the chance to do so.
He dose make a very good point though...I did post in his quote field thingy.
I would not, PvE or AI does not offer me enough of a challenge at this tech level, PvE gets boring and repetitive while PvP always has a chance to be something new and unexpected.
The real gaming challenges reside in PvP and it doesn't surprise me that most are not up for that challenge....much like real life people tend to be lazy and not want to challenge themselves save for the select few who do not fit that generalization.
The way most PvP games are setup now one of four outcomes occurs almost everytime.
1. You exterminate your opponent, as in owning him.
2. Your opponent exterminates you, as in owns you bad.
3. A third party owns one or both of you and you usually didn't know they were even there.
4. For whatever reason one of you gives the other the slip.
That's it-not much challenge. But, man do people live for number 1. I don't know if it is the challenge or the fact that you just owned another living breathing person but it sure hits the deep down animal spot in my brain somewhere.
Pve dosen't work in a PvP environment because simply if someone is Pve'ing and you attack them you are forcing them to do something they are not wanting to do at the moment. Which in a way makes you their mom, and not in the cool owning them kind of way but in the pain the a$$ making them take out the trash griefer kind of way.
I have never understood how people enjoy killing people that have no chance of winning. I like my PvP man vs man ready for combat where the truely skilled person wins.
Originally posted by Styij is in YELLOW
Once you figure out how to use the forums, then talk to me about other things you have yet to figure out.
Didn't realize it was in yellow, sorry about that. Excellent rebuttal and contribution to the discussion, about what I expected to hear from you.
I made it yellow because you typed in my quote box (as if I said what you typed) but back at ya...bout what I was expecting from you (talking out your ass and can't figure out what is what on the basic end of things). Is there anything else i can teach you today?
YOU are way out of your element if you want to debate things with me it seems.
Take no notice of him, Styij, he's just proving that hardcore PvP'ers tend to have over-inflated opinions of themselves and is providing perfect evidence why an awful lot of gamers wouldn't just be willing to play a PvE-only game, they'd positively welcome the chance to do so.
He dose make a very good point though...I did post in his quote field thingy.
That is another problem I consistantly see with the "PVEers" you will bash PvP in game and come to forums and complain about it, then ignore points made like my reply to Winntech to persue forum PvP....
It's very interesting if not ironic....
And then after you lose the forum PvP you /report in many cases.
Yes people in PvP tend to get arrogant and says really immature things. Oh wait this is the INTERNETS!!! That happens EVERYWHERE.
PvP is just one aspect of it, and where some of the more degenerate ones are loudest. I have met plenty of encouraging, nice, and thoughtful people that play and enjoy PvP. I was just playing one game in WoW last night where the one group I was in stayed positive and encouraging when we were down in a battleground, and the team ended up pulling together and actually won it. The next match I was in was full of "you suck, I’m uber" children. Ironically guess what team lost?
The reality is PvP is just more dynamic an experience. PvE in MMO's bores the HELL out of me, and frankly is the last thing I want to do. PvP is not only more challenging, it’s different every time. People change tactics, they adapt, and they do things differently. There is no substitute for this. Beating a computer AI imho is totally unrewarding. It's like the difference between playing a live sport or chess game, and beating a maze on a piece of paper. Maybe a little rewarding the first time, but doing it over and over and over again?? Not my idea of a good time.
I would not, PvE or AI does not offer me enough of a challenge at this tech level, PvE gets boring and repetitive while PvP always has a chance to be something new and unexpected.
The real gaming challenges reside in PvP and it doesn't surprise me that most are not up for that challenge....much like real life people tend to be lazy and not want to challenge themselves save for the select few who do not fit that generalization.
The way most PvP games are setup now one of four outcomes occurs almost everytime.
1. You exterminate your opponent, as in owning him.
2. Your opponent exterminates you, as in owns you bad.
3. A third party owns one or both of you and you usually didn't know they were even there.
4. For whatever reason one of you gives the other the slip.
That's it-not much challenge. But, man do people live for number 1. I don't know if it is the challenge or the fact that you just owned another living breathing person but it sure hits the deep down animal spot in my brain somewhere.
Pve dosen't work in a PvP environment because simply if someone is Pve'ing and you attack them you are forcing them to do something they are not wanting to do at the moment. Which in a way makes you their mom, and not in the cool owning them kind of way but in the pain the a$$ making them take out the trash griefer kind of way.
I have never understood how people enjoy killing people that have no chance of winning. I like my PvP man vs man ready for combat where the truely skilled person wins.
Originally posted by Styij is in YELLOW
Once you figure out how to use the forums, then talk to me about other things you have yet to figure out.
Didn't realize it was in yellow, sorry about that. Excellent rebuttal and contribution to the discussion, about what I expected to hear from you.
I made it yellow because you typed in my quote box (as if I said what you typed) but back at ya...bout what I was expecting from you (talking out your ass and can't figure out what is what on the basic end of things). Is there anything else i can teach you today?
YOU are way out of your element if you want to debate things with me it seems.
Take no notice of him, Styij, he's just proving that hardcore PvP'ers tend to have over-inflated opinions of themselves and is providing perfect evidence why an awful lot of gamers wouldn't just be willing to play a PvE-only game, they'd positively welcome the chance to do so.
He dose make a very good point though...I did post in his quote field thingy.
That is another problem I consistantly see with the "PVEers" you will bash PvP in game and come to forums and complain about it, then ignore points made like my reply to Winntech to persue forum PvP....
It's very interesting if not ironic....
And then after you lose the forum PvP you /report in many cases.
Dude what are you talking about!?!? Something about people ignoring your post and not giving you respect or something?
All I did was post in a thread of a topic I thought may be interesting. I gave some insight I had from years of PvP gaming. Perhapes I don't have a doctorate in PvP vs Pve anatomy so a simple "Styij I think your way off" or "Styij you are way over simplifing things" but instead I get "You suck so STFU". I don't know what your history is with these people and I'm sorry if it is rough on here for you. Ooops...I appear to have posted in your quote field thingy again...sorry about that.
I would not, PvE or AI does not offer me enough of a challenge at this tech level, PvE gets boring and repetitive while PvP always has a chance to be something new and unexpected.
The real gaming challenges reside in PvP and it doesn't surprise me that most are not up for that challenge....much like real life people tend to be lazy and not want to challenge themselves save for the select few who do not fit that generalization.
The way most PvP games are setup now one of four outcomes occurs almost everytime.
1. You exterminate your opponent, as in owning him.
2. Your opponent exterminates you, as in owns you bad.
3. A third party owns one or both of you and you usually didn't know they were even there.
4. For whatever reason one of you gives the other the slip.
That's it-not much challenge. But, man do people live for number 1. I don't know if it is the challenge or the fact that you just owned another living breathing person but it sure hits the deep down animal spot in my brain somewhere.
Pve dosen't work in a PvP environment because simply if someone is Pve'ing and you attack them you are forcing them to do something they are not wanting to do at the moment. Which in a way makes you their mom, and not in the cool owning them kind of way but in the pain the a$$ making them take out the trash griefer kind of way.
I have never understood how people enjoy killing people that have no chance of winning. I like my PvP man vs man ready for combat where the truely skilled person wins.
Originally posted by Styij is in YELLOW
Once you figure out how to use the forums, then talk to me about other things you have yet to figure out.
Didn't realize it was in yellow, sorry about that. Excellent rebuttal and contribution to the discussion, about what I expected to hear from you.
I made it yellow because you typed in my quote box (as if I said what you typed) but back at ya...bout what I was expecting from you (talking out your ass and can't figure out what is what on the basic end of things). Is there anything else i can teach you today?
YOU are way out of your element if you want to debate things with me it seems.
Take no notice of him, Styij, he's just proving that hardcore PvP'ers tend to have over-inflated opinions of themselves and is providing perfect evidence why an awful lot of gamers wouldn't just be willing to play a PvE-only game, they'd positively welcome the chance to do so.
He dose make a very good point though...I did post in his quote field thingy.
That is another problem I consistantly see with the "PVEers" you will bash PvP in game and come to forums and complain about it, then ignore points made like my reply to Winntech to persue forum PvP....
It's very interesting if not ironic....
And then after you lose the forum PvP you /report in many cases.
Dude what are you talking about!?!? Something about people ignoring your post and not giving you respect or something?
All I did was post in a thread of a topic I thought may be interesting. I gave some insight I had from years of PvP gaming. Perhapes I don't have a doctorate in PvP vs Pve anatomy so a simple "Styij I think your way off" or "Styij you are way over simplifing things" but instead I get "You suck so STFU". I don't know what your history is with these people and I'm sorry if it is rough on here for you. Ooops...I appear to have posted in your quote field thingy again...sorry about that.
Originally posted by Styij is again...in yellow
I never said you suck and STFU, I said learn to use the forums so there is no chance of anyone thinking that what you are saying is me saying it (maybe pages later). Then we can talk..simply put.
I am not trying to be arrogant but I understand if it may look that way...just me. I will now wait till you have more experience with the forum functions but IMO your original reply to me had you associating RL kills with PK kills or PvP and that wasn't my intended meaning when I related RL challenges to MMO challenges.
On that note should I apologize to you for thinking you were just some ignorant troll?? If so and you are not then I apologize.
I would not play an MMORPG without PVP because it is too easy and predictable. I do not enjoy PVE in games . .. actually I do a little in Darkfall but thats about it. If I want PVE than I will play a console game or something.
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I would love a game that would have PvE exclusively; problem is, of course, the AI. If vast improvements were implemented on the AI then PvE could hold its own. My opinon is a bit different than some. I find several things wrong with PvP:
Causes developers to focus less on storyline and environmental flair to enhance game world immersion
When developers are out of ideas, they make end game PvP, less programming and you can grab those players that just desire to be better than one another. But, this takes away from the game in my opinion.
PvP is used to balance characters, if an AI was designed correctly, then you wouldn't need to do so.
I used to PvP, I used to LOVE PvP. The more games I played I found that the less I enjoyed PvP. I grew out of it. Soon I was just playing to be immersed in a storyline that would drag me from beginning to end. Well, not many games do this well. WoW does an OK job in my opinion. Warhammer, well, that went horribly. AoC, I lasted a week, the game was poorly implemented.
What does PvP do that is GOOD for the gaming community? Until they get a good AI, it is the best method for character balancing. That is, till they go to a classless design, then it would be skills that would be more important. This I wait for impatiently.
Another plus is that it give the developers a look at how to create an effective AI. Lets be serious, how is it that the most complex AI is used to play Chess. I would adore a game that made me think instead of "press 1, press 2, press 3" while at the same time I sit and watch "The Smoking Gun Presents: Some Idiots part 19". Instead, we are faced with enemies that meander on set paths and, as you walk by, may, MAY attack you.
AI improvements that would have to take place would be immense. The AI would have to know all moves and the counters for them. Enemies that attack in a set pattern are a waste of time. Sorry, when you can put a timer on an attack, your AI is flawed. The attacks from the opponents should come just like they would from a normal player. That would be an amazing break through and would cause the games to go from "Please press "X" now" to "OMG, he parried my ultimate attack, let me look at the AI's weakness and seek an opening..."
Games are getting too easy, PvP is not the answer. Fix the AI and make people work for it again. That being said, I give an emphatic YES, it can be done and if done right with a great AI, I would play and applaud.
I can appreciate your desire...you want to be told a story.
Some players want to be the story, they want the world changed by them and they don't want to be funneled into the same NPC storyline that everone else is being lead around by the nose by. IMHO it's more broing scripted AI repetition that just gets older because it's all basically the same.
For me it's just the opposite, the more I play the less I am impressed by scripted NPC stories and fighting.
Actually I do agree while at the same time I don't. When you look at the ability to create a game you can see easily, to create multiple methods of intergration into a storyline would be overwhelming for any team. It would be a daunting task for a team to create infinite possibilities of play and allow the game to be ultimately replayable.
Remember Gauntlet and its "infinitely replayable" dungeons? Anyone? Well, even that got boring. Fact of the matter is you cannot make a storyline infinitely replayable. Its just not possible without altering the storyline and deep instancing.
Now...perhaps...just a slim chance, someone were to develop a storyline that was engrossing enough to have high replayability based on multiple variables that would not instance you away from the populace but rather set you for or against it while playing with the same individuals...that could be interesting. One group, each on a quest to push their storyline forward while another's storyline may affect the others.
Since I am in dreamland here, perhaps the system itself can be developed to insert your character into random variable points in the story based of other variables. The system could then twist the story in a fashion that is within its boundaries based on your decisions and rewrite the story to the same end but multi-chain story lines. If that were the basis, then I would like also to see the system to try its best to be sure that you played as little repetition as possible and that you could see the fruits of your work (and others that happened to cross your path(s) ) while playing another storyline altogether.
PvPers, I don't see them as arrogant. My last guild leader loved PvP and I would run any dungeon with him. Great guy. PvP can add a dimension to a game, this I do agree with as well. But, keep in mind, none of us here have ever played a game with an AI so complex and well designed that we sat back and said "OMG..." as the game completely disembowled our well crafted toon. No, most games AI are set to do attack A, B, and C and repeat ad nausem.
Till the AI is perfected, for those of us that just don't want to PvP, we have to understand, it IS indeed a necessary evil. If one does not ever want to play a game with PvP, probably would be best to console game. I just avoid games that focus on PvP. Like I said before, its just not for me. But, I wouldn't want to strip others of the ability to PvP in some fashion in all games. Duels must be fought (at least). When the AI is finally up to snuff, then PvP won't be as needed, but it will never go away, just cause I don't like it, doesn't mean that someone else doesn't.
The real gaming challenges reside in PvP and it doesn't surprise me that most are not up for that challenge....much like real life people tend to be lazy and not want to challenge themselves save for the select few who do not fit that generalization.
In theory yes your right, but in actuality your wrong. The majority of PvP mmo's consist of who has the bigger gank squad or who has the better equipment. With that theres just as much challenge in pvp as there is in keepin 20+ people doing what their suposed to be doing to down a big raId boss. And there are hard PvE bosses where one mistake can wipe a raid. WoW has simplified raids and given PvE raiding a bad name. Games like FFXI and EQ have had very challenging bosses.
If I am wrong then how is it that my guild is known for doing more with less? We have won many battles with fewer numbers and even won matches with shittier gear.....I agree it's not common but it's also not theory since I have lived it for a decade now.
Out of curiosity what game are you refering to?
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
The real gaming challenges reside in PvP and it doesn't surprise me that most are not up for that challenge....much like real life people tend to be lazy and not want to challenge themselves save for the select few who do not fit that generalization.
In theory yes your right, but in actuality your wrong. The majority of PvP mmo's consist of who has the bigger gank squad or who has the better equipment. With that theres just as much challenge in pvp as there is in keepin 20+ people doing what their suposed to be doing to down a big raId boss. And there are hard PvE bosses where one mistake can wipe a raid. WoW has simplified raids and given PvE raiding a bad name. Games like FFXI and EQ have had very challenging bosses.
If I am wrong then how is it that my guild is known for doing more with less? We have won many battles with fewer numbers and even won matches with shittier gear.....I agree it's not common but it's also not theory since I have lived it for a decade now.
Out of curiosity what game are you refering to?
Games, we have played or tried- every major-semi major PvP MMO since UO and as PirateLords from SWG in 2003 till present. with Aion being the last one we were in and now going to Tera in Q1 2011
The real gaming challenges reside in PvP and it doesn't surprise me that most are not up for that challenge....much like real life people tend to be lazy and not want to challenge themselves save for the select few who do not fit that generalization.
In theory yes your right, but in actuality your wrong. The majority of PvP mmo's consist of who has the bigger gank squad or who has the better equipment. With that theres just as much challenge in pvp as there is in keepin 20+ people doing what their suposed to be doing to down a big raId boss. And there are hard PvE bosses where one mistake can wipe a raid. WoW has simplified raids and given PvE raiding a bad name. Games like FFXI and EQ have had very challenging bosses.
If I am wrong then how is it that my guild is known for doing more with less? We have won many battles with fewer numbers and even won matches with shittier gear.....I agree it's not common but it's also not theory since I have lived it for a decade now.
Out of curiosity what game are you refering to?
Games, we have played or tried- every major-semi major PvP MMO since UO and as PirateLords from SWG in 2003 till present. with Aion being the last one we were in and now going to Tera in Q1 2011
In DAOC whenever my guild would reroll we would still rock pretty hard with unfinished templates and being under RR5 against fully temped RR8+ groups. Its easier to win with better gear, but there is no substitution for teamwork and skill.
East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011 -------------------- Current game: DAOC
Games played and quit: L2, PlanetSide, RF Online, GuildWars, SWG, COH/COV, Vanguard, LOTRO, WoW, WW2 Online, FFXI, Auto-Assault, EVE Online, ShadowBane, RYL, Rappelz, Last Chaos, Myst Online, POTBS, EQ2, Warhammer Online, AoC, Aion, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Allods, Darkfall.
I would not play a MMO that shunned PVP completely. If they dont wanna give an option to fight against other players then they wont have my money or time...
The real gaming challenges reside in PvP and it doesn't surprise me that most are not up for that challenge....much like real life people tend to be lazy and not want to challenge themselves save for the select few who do not fit that generalization.
In theory yes your right, but in actuality your wrong. The majority of PvP mmo's consist of who has the bigger gank squad or who has the better equipment. With that theres just as much challenge in pvp as there is in keepin 20+ people doing what their suposed to be doing to down a big raId boss. And there are hard PvE bosses where one mistake can wipe a raid. WoW has simplified raids and given PvE raiding a bad name. Games like FFXI and EQ have had very challenging bosses.
If I am wrong then how is it that my guild is known for doing more with less? We have won many battles with fewer numbers and even won matches with shittier gear.....I agree it's not common but it's also not theory since I have lived it for a decade now.
Out of curiosity what game are you refering to?
Games, we have played or tried- every major-semi major PvP MMO since UO and as PirateLords from SWG in 2003 till present. with Aion being the last one we were in and now going to Tera in Q1 2011
In DAOC whenever my guild would reroll we would still rock pretty hard with unfinished templates and being under RR5 against fully temped RR8+ groups. Its easier to win with better gear, but there is no substitution for teamwork and skill.
Exactly...and when this method is translated to PvE, AI is a cake walk. The challenge starts with coodinating people to work together fluidly and then finding other groups with this trend to fight against. AI is no substitute and has yet to offer that kind of challenge.
Exactly...and when this method is translated to PvE, AI is a cake walk. The challenge starts with coodinating people to work together fluidly and then finding other groups with this trend to fight against. AI is no substitute and has yet to offer that kind of challenge.
No matter how good of AI a PVE boss has, it will always have an underlying script behind it. This means PVE will always be predictable and will always be beatable with only knowing one strategy.
PVP on the other hand requires a mass amount of strategy. Such as in DAOC 8 man, if you ran into a tank heavy group, balanced group, caster heavy group, or even a zerg, they all required different strategies and strategies would change mid fight to adapt to how the fight is leaning, or how aggressive the other group is playing.
For everyone saying that PVE is hard because if one person messes up everyone wipes, that does not show difficulty, that just shows your ability to be a bot and follow a script. Real skill comes from picking up peoples slack and adapting to situations.
East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011 -------------------- Current game: DAOC
Games played and quit: L2, PlanetSide, RF Online, GuildWars, SWG, COH/COV, Vanguard, LOTRO, WoW, WW2 Online, FFXI, Auto-Assault, EVE Online, ShadowBane, RYL, Rappelz, Last Chaos, Myst Online, POTBS, EQ2, Warhammer Online, AoC, Aion, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Allods, Darkfall.
Exactly...and when this method is translated to PvE, AI is a cake walk. The challenge starts with coodinating people to work together fluidly and then finding other groups with this trend to fight against. AI is no substitute and has yet to offer that kind of challenge.
AI ramblings are funny. A good script will defeat the vast majority of players. But really, who wants an NPC (or NPC party) that is actually designed to win?
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Exactly...and when this method is translated to PvE, AI is a cake walk. The challenge starts with coodinating people to work together fluidly and then finding other groups with this trend to fight against. AI is no substitute and has yet to offer that kind of challenge.
AI ramblings are funny. A good script will defeat the vast majority of players. But really, who wants an NPC (or NPC party) that is actually designed to win?
Your last sentence says it all, AI in MMO's will always be designed to figure out and be defeated (that's the point of PvE)...
The same can never be said about PvP (that's the real challenge of an MMO IMHO), since anyone can just get the same PvE experience from PvE in a solo play game.
And really, what is the point of an all PvE MMO?? If you want to play with a group vs PvE then just design a game that is all instanced PvE with no open worlds and only have a menu with options to craft-group-or sell. Then have the group form in their own little instance when the group is all ready and with crafting and selling there really isn't any reason for a game world unless you like running around and picking flowers or something.
Also, if there is just a PvE game world and it's popular then most likely 20-30% of it's population will be bots and gold sellers spamming you left and right and mindlessly stealing PvE mobs, especially any of the mobs that drop the more valuable itmes.
Comments
-- The game would need to have unpredictable AI (no phases on bosses. regular mobs werent only there for slaughter) I feel most people have a problem with the lack of pvp because monsters do NOT provide a challenge in most games. Must be fixed.
-- Crafting based economy is a MUST for me. I'm totally for materials dropping from world bosses, but crafters must combine them in the end.
-- Character development outside of gear upgrades is huge. I want to level skills, build my own house, carve my own piece of the world, etc. I also dont want a cap on how many I wish to level. It takes time, resources and the willpower to do it, but damnit im going to do it.
-- A heavy political based system would substitute a pvp system in my eyes if done right. City vs City (nation vs nation, clan vs clan) Race vs Race is -okay- but makes for boring comrades. FFXI had a good idea with nation vs nation. Area with most influence gained points redeemed for items as well as vendors who only sold goods if that area was in control. Could build off that idea to make it far more complex.
(Literary work in progress. will add more later!)
Take no notice of him, Styij, he's just proving that hardcore PvP'ers tend to have over-inflated opinions of themselves and is providing perfect evidence why an awful lot of gamers wouldn't just be willing to play a PvE-only game, they'd positively welcome the chance to do so.
I can appreciate your desire...you want to be told a story.
Some players want to be the story, they want the world changed by them and they don't want to be funneled into the same NPC storyline that everone else is being lead around by the nose by. IMHO it's more broing scripted AI repetition that just gets older because it's all basically the same.
For me it's just the opposite, the more I play the less I am impressed by scripted NPC stories and fighting.
PIRATE LORDS
And you back the one who doesn't even know if they typed in yellow or not and couldn't figure out how to quote properly before they stated mouthing off pertending to know a lil something something about other complexities
Ya...solid argument. /rollseyes
PIRATE LORDS
He dose make a very good point though...I did post in his quote field thingy.
That is another problem I consistantly see with the "PVEers" you will bash PvP in game and come to forums and complain about it, then ignore points made like my reply to Winntech to persue forum PvP....
It's very interesting if not ironic....
And then after you lose the forum PvP you /report in many cases.
PIRATE LORDS
Yes people in PvP tend to get arrogant and says really immature things. Oh wait this is the INTERNETS!!! That happens EVERYWHERE.
PvP is just one aspect of it, and where some of the more degenerate ones are loudest. I have met plenty of encouraging, nice, and thoughtful people that play and enjoy PvP. I was just playing one game in WoW last night where the one group I was in stayed positive and encouraging when we were down in a battleground, and the team ended up pulling together and actually won it. The next match I was in was full of "you suck, I’m uber" children. Ironically guess what team lost?
The reality is PvP is just more dynamic an experience. PvE in MMO's bores the HELL out of me, and frankly is the last thing I want to do. PvP is not only more challenging, it’s different every time. People change tactics, they adapt, and they do things differently. There is no substitute for this. Beating a computer AI imho is totally unrewarding. It's like the difference between playing a live sport or chess game, and beating a maze on a piece of paper. Maybe a little rewarding the first time, but doing it over and over and over again?? Not my idea of a good time.
lol. Debate is PvP.
NO IT IS NOT. Its not player vrs player. It's supposed to be idea vrs idea. For god sake I hope the most logical one wins.
Unfourtantly this is not human nature. People are mostly convinced by fallacies. It's sad really, but thats the way it is.
Originally posted by Styij is again...in yellow
I never said you suck and STFU, I said learn to use the forums so there is no chance of anyone thinking that what you are saying is me saying it (maybe pages later). Then we can talk..simply put.
I am not trying to be arrogant but I understand if it may look that way...just me. I will now wait till you have more experience with the forum functions but IMO your original reply to me had you associating RL kills with PK kills or PvP and that wasn't my intended meaning when I related RL challenges to MMO challenges.
On that note should I apologize to you for thinking you were just some ignorant troll?? If so and you are not then I apologize.
PIRATE LORDS
I would not play an MMORPG without PVP because it is too easy and predictable. I do not enjoy PVE in games . .. actually I do a little in Darkfall but thats about it. If I want PVE than I will play a console game or something.
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Actually I do agree while at the same time I don't. When you look at the ability to create a game you can see easily, to create multiple methods of intergration into a storyline would be overwhelming for any team. It would be a daunting task for a team to create infinite possibilities of play and allow the game to be ultimately replayable.
Remember Gauntlet and its "infinitely replayable" dungeons? Anyone? Well, even that got boring. Fact of the matter is you cannot make a storyline infinitely replayable. Its just not possible without altering the storyline and deep instancing.
Now...perhaps...just a slim chance, someone were to develop a storyline that was engrossing enough to have high replayability based on multiple variables that would not instance you away from the populace but rather set you for or against it while playing with the same individuals...that could be interesting. One group, each on a quest to push their storyline forward while another's storyline may affect the others.
Since I am in dreamland here, perhaps the system itself can be developed to insert your character into random variable points in the story based of other variables. The system could then twist the story in a fashion that is within its boundaries based on your decisions and rewrite the story to the same end but multi-chain story lines. If that were the basis, then I would like also to see the system to try its best to be sure that you played as little repetition as possible and that you could see the fruits of your work (and others that happened to cross your path(s) ) while playing another storyline altogether.
PvPers, I don't see them as arrogant. My last guild leader loved PvP and I would run any dungeon with him. Great guy. PvP can add a dimension to a game, this I do agree with as well. But, keep in mind, none of us here have ever played a game with an AI so complex and well designed that we sat back and said "OMG..." as the game completely disembowled our well crafted toon. No, most games AI are set to do attack A, B, and C and repeat ad nausem.
Till the AI is perfected, for those of us that just don't want to PvP, we have to understand, it IS indeed a necessary evil. If one does not ever want to play a game with PvP, probably would be best to console game. I just avoid games that focus on PvP. Like I said before, its just not for me. But, I wouldn't want to strip others of the ability to PvP in some fashion in all games. Duels must be fought (at least). When the AI is finally up to snuff, then PvP won't be as needed, but it will never go away, just cause I don't like it, doesn't mean that someone else doesn't.
PLEASE give me a good AI...(I even said please)
WinnTech
Out of curiosity what game are you refering to?
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
Games, we have played or tried- every major-semi major PvP MMO since UO and as PirateLords from SWG in 2003 till present. with Aion being the last one we were in and now going to Tera in Q1 2011
PIRATE LORDS
no
East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011
--------------------
Current game: DAOC
Games played and quit: L2, PlanetSide, RF Online, GuildWars, SWG, COH/COV, Vanguard, LOTRO, WoW, WW2 Online, FFXI, Auto-Assault, EVE Online, ShadowBane, RYL, Rappelz, Last Chaos, Myst Online, POTBS, EQ2, Warhammer Online, AoC, Aion, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Allods, Darkfall.
Waiting on: Earthrise
Names: Citio, Goldie, Sportacus
the poll kind of speaks for it's self.
Yes, if it was good. Although I do prefer RvR (which I don't consider PvP because they play completely differently if done right...)
In DAOC whenever my guild would reroll we would still rock pretty hard with unfinished templates and being under RR5 against fully temped RR8+ groups. Its easier to win with better gear, but there is no substitution for teamwork and skill.
East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011
--------------------
Current game: DAOC
Games played and quit: L2, PlanetSide, RF Online, GuildWars, SWG, COH/COV, Vanguard, LOTRO, WoW, WW2 Online, FFXI, Auto-Assault, EVE Online, ShadowBane, RYL, Rappelz, Last Chaos, Myst Online, POTBS, EQ2, Warhammer Online, AoC, Aion, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Allods, Darkfall.
Waiting on: Earthrise
Names: Citio, Goldie, Sportacus
I would not play a MMO that shunned PVP completely. If they dont wanna give an option to fight against other players then they wont have my money or time...
Exactly...and when this method is translated to PvE, AI is a cake walk. The challenge starts with coodinating people to work together fluidly and then finding other groups with this trend to fight against. AI is no substitute and has yet to offer that kind of challenge.
PIRATE LORDS
No matter how good of AI a PVE boss has, it will always have an underlying script behind it. This means PVE will always be predictable and will always be beatable with only knowing one strategy.
PVP on the other hand requires a mass amount of strategy. Such as in DAOC 8 man, if you ran into a tank heavy group, balanced group, caster heavy group, or even a zerg, they all required different strategies and strategies would change mid fight to adapt to how the fight is leaning, or how aggressive the other group is playing.
For everyone saying that PVE is hard because if one person messes up everyone wipes, that does not show difficulty, that just shows your ability to be a bot and follow a script. Real skill comes from picking up peoples slack and adapting to situations.
East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011
--------------------
Current game: DAOC
Games played and quit: L2, PlanetSide, RF Online, GuildWars, SWG, COH/COV, Vanguard, LOTRO, WoW, WW2 Online, FFXI, Auto-Assault, EVE Online, ShadowBane, RYL, Rappelz, Last Chaos, Myst Online, POTBS, EQ2, Warhammer Online, AoC, Aion, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Allods, Darkfall.
Waiting on: Earthrise
Names: Citio, Goldie, Sportacus
AI ramblings are funny. A good script will defeat the vast majority of players. But really, who wants an NPC (or NPC party) that is actually designed to win?
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
I already treat mmo's like that. So technically I already do.
Your last sentence says it all, AI in MMO's will always be designed to figure out and be defeated (that's the point of PvE)...
The same can never be said about PvP (that's the real challenge of an MMO IMHO), since anyone can just get the same PvE experience from PvE in a solo play game.
And really, what is the point of an all PvE MMO?? If you want to play with a group vs PvE then just design a game that is all instanced PvE with no open worlds and only have a menu with options to craft-group-or sell. Then have the group form in their own little instance when the group is all ready and with crafting and selling there really isn't any reason for a game world unless you like running around and picking flowers or something.
Also, if there is just a PvE game world and it's popular then most likely 20-30% of it's population will be bots and gold sellers spamming you left and right and mindlessly stealing PvE mobs, especially any of the mobs that drop the more valuable itmes.
PIRATE LORDS
I like pve most but pvp should be in a game.. if u get bored ^_^