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I had high hopes.
I really wanted to believe that Darkfall would be an awesome PvP game, one that relied on twitch based skills as much as player progression, one that allowed you to jump right into the action and defend yourself from or attack any interlopers who crossed you. God how wrong I was.
First off, the grind, good god the grind. Skilling up is the most important thing in the game and to achieve skills comperable to those of the average pvper or even of those that run around ganking noobs, you have to go through a ridiculous grind. Now I have no problem with skill progression, but since the whole idea of the game is open, FFA PvP you would think that the playing field would be a bit more even to give lower level players a fighting chance against vets. No such luck. Higher level players will not only have way more offensive and defensive power, which makes sense and would be acceptable, but they can have over twice as much HP as you which when combined with their attack and defense powers means you stand NO chance when you get ganked by some high level griefer which is just great, being completely helpless in a FFA PvP game. It's like spawning into a match of Battlefield 2 with nothing but a spork and a hockey helmet.
So your only hope in the lower levels is to scurry off to the middle of nowhere and either afk macro your way up or sit there smacking goblins for a month straight, which in itself is impossible to do without being found since all mobs spawn in nice little predefined areas of which there are very few compared to the world's size. And the griefers most certianly know where these areas are. If you do manage to make it back to a town, or your clan's town should you be in one, to visit the bank you'll have to watch your back the entire time as griefers will also target you in the middle of town. In fact at lower levels you will be targeted by them pretty much everywhere, there are whole clans dedicated to ganking noobs. Now thats not to say everyone hates new players, most high level players will intervene on your behalf should someone try to gank you, but they can't be around all the time and its really just an inconvience for them to have to come save you.
The game was touted as a skill based PvP centric MMO, and it delivered. Unforetunetly instead of actual player skill which usually comes into account in FPS games, its stat based, fully and completely, and it focuses so much on PvP that doing anything else is nearly impossible and quite frankly just not enjoyable. Now neither of these are a surprise really, but from the way the game was marketed you would have expected your skill at twitch gaming to be just as important as your player skills and for there to be a few more sandbox elements to compliment the PvP, this is not the case though. Housing, crafting, skill progression, PvP are all seemingly designed to put players off of this game. It's combat is interesting, its world is beautiful, if empty, and the openess and freedom of the game is great, but they don't make up for the failing of the basic gameplay and the staff's uninterested attitude towards the communities demands (check the official forums for countless threads on how unsatisfied it's customers are with the current product).
Hopefully Darkfall gets itself sorted out, but as it stands it would need a major overhaul of nearly everyone of its aspects to even resemble a balanced and fun sandbox PvP game.
Comments
Well, the combat system in Darkfall is advertised as twitch-based, but in reality is just a conventional combat system where you select abilities to fire off and simply have to aim and left-mouse click to emulate autoattack.
Granted, even in its state it's a breath of fresh air compared to tab-select autoattack games, but it's no more skill based than WoW is when it comes to PvP. You see a lot of strafing, jumping and mouse-spamming just like in BGs in WoW.
While i do think that any MMORPG, which relies on character development as one of the main goals of the game, must have power differentiation between players depending on the time they have invested playing, in Darkfall's case the FFA full loot would warrant more level ground right off the bat; skills advance decently now, but stats advance too slow and are crucial in determining player power (a veteran can have twice as many HP as a newbie, as was mentioned).
Since it is unlikely we'll see a combat system like M&B, where skill DOES matter, something to balance this huge gap in power is needed, most probably by re-calculating the bonuses of stats.
M&B?
My god has horns.... nah, I don't think he is real either.
So you dont like grind in MMOs. And you dont like combat? Ok?
I play casually and very much enjoyed DFO, if you can get past the god awful grind and the fact that skill is required only when stats are semi-even, then ya, it's fun. But I do really wish they put in a skill cap of oh say... 500-700 to really enforce that need for community and to really make the choices on your single character mean something.
"The question that sometimes drives me hazy: Am I, or the others crazy?" - Albert Einstein
Well i can only say:
You could be right about the hp gap.
But for the rest i think you are not making any sence at all.
And as a starting player the exitement is in escaping with your live not killing the veteran, wich makes alot of sence to me.
I play casually and very much enjoyed DFO, if you can get past the god awful grind and the fact that skill is required only when stats are semi-even, then ya, it's fun. But I do really wish they put in a skill cap of oh say... 500-700 to really enforce that need for community and to really make the choices on your single character mean something.
I also play very casually : )
But try and come up with something that dont restrict the players. That is something Aventurine have been very clear about. No restrictions.
Mount and blade. It's conbat is something that's going to require a a serious breakthrough in hardware before you'll ever see it in a MMO.
well, the Warband expansion plays pretty well with 64-man battles, if you choose a server close to your location with low ping. With some tweaking, M&B could very well be the next breakthrough if it becomes an MMO at some point in the future.
I play casually and very much enjoyed DFO, if you can get past the god awful grind and the fact that skill is required only when stats are semi-even, then ya, it's fun. But I do really wish they put in a skill cap of oh say... 500-700 to really enforce that need for community and to really make the choices on your single character mean something.
I also play very casually : )
But try and come up with something that dont restrict the players. That is something Aventurine have been very clear about. No restrictions.
I'm afraid in the end then the only thing that will happen is everyone will be alike internally with a few external differences.
"The question that sometimes drives me hazy: Am I, or the others crazy?" - Albert Einstein
I play casually and very much enjoyed DFO, if you can get past the god awful grind and the fact that skill is required only when stats are semi-even, then ya, it's fun. But I do really wish they put in a skill cap of oh say... 500-700 to really enforce that need for community and to really make the choices on your single character mean something.
I also play very casually : )
But try and come up with something that dont restrict the players. That is something Aventurine have been very clear about. No restrictions.
I'm afraid in the end then the only thing that will happen is everyone will be alike internally with a few external differences.
No two people are the same. And that shows in the gameplay.
And even if two people vere given the exact same characters, thier gamestyles would be totally different. Example: Two people training Karate for ten years.....but only one can win in a fight between them : )
I play casually and very much enjoyed DFO, if you can get past the god awful grind and the fact that skill is required only when stats are semi-even, then ya, it's fun. But I do really wish they put in a skill cap of oh say... 500-700 to really enforce that need for community and to really make the choices on your single character mean something.
I also play very casually : )
But try and come up with something that dont restrict the players. That is something Aventurine have been very clear about. No restrictions.
I'm afraid in the end then the only thing that will happen is everyone will be alike internally with a few external differences.
No two people are the same. And that shows in the gameplay.
And even if two people vere given the exact same characters, thier gamestyles would be totally different. Example: Two people training Karate for ten years.....but only one can win in a fight between them : )
I see what you mean, but still, eventually players will no longer need their armorsmith buddy or their cooking buddy... community will only be seen in those who group for PvP, and even then, it'll mainly be a bunch of roaring and growling as the run around rollstomping all in their path... :P
"The question that sometimes drives me hazy: Am I, or the others crazy?" - Albert Einstein
ha ha, dont worry.
Just because you CAN craft dont mean you WILL. True crafters for example in DF are very loved : )
EDIT: And seriously, would you not be more worried for a class/level game have that problem? All people playing the same class are the same??
Try Quake Live - ultimate player-skill based MMORPG
On more serious note - some skills / stats are just "badly" designed: vitality, weapon mastery, archmage, magic intensify etc. They just give obvious advantages as you level them up - more HP or higher DPS. It just encourages grinding.
Some are designed in a way that support character development, but does not encourage grind. High level power attack has just shorter cooldown, high level heal mount has longer range, high level witches brew has larger AOE - so you can easily compete without having high character skills.
You can overcome veterans advantages using proper tactics and / or proper gear. Battlehorn + mob dropped R50 1-hander allows you to kill anyone, including guys with 400 HP. The same with mob dropped full plate + R60 2-hander + destroyer spec.
you guys just want everything handed to you, if you cant be the best-über-pvp'er in 2 weeks the game sux.
And on a side note, to those of you saying that the game is not twitchbased, it is not it istwitch-related, and that is 1000 times better than Alt-Tab-fire, try to play against one of equal skill and you will see.
*****************************
I have nothing clever to say.
Mount and blade. It's conbat is something that's going to require a a serious breakthrough in hardware before you'll ever see it in a MMO.
well, the Warband expansion plays pretty well with 64-man battles, if you choose a server close to your location with low ping. With some tweaking, M&B could very well be the next breakthrough if it becomes an MMO at some point in the future.
Yea those 64-man enter a map, play it out then leave, weknow is possible from other single player games who ofer multiplayer too. A hosted persistent world is another kind of multiplayer called MASSIVE multiplayer with massive requirements.
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Mount and blade. It's conbat is something that's going to require a a serious breakthrough in hardware before you'll ever see it in a MMO.
well, the Warband expansion plays pretty well with 64-man battles, if you choose a server close to your location with low ping. With some tweaking, M&B could very well be the next breakthrough if it becomes an MMO at some point in the future.
Yea those 64-man enter a map, play it out then leave, weknow is possible from other single player games who ofer multiplayer too. A hosted persistent world is another kind of multiplayer called MASSIVE multiplayer with massive requirements.
A bit off topic here but: the comment was on the possibility of having a M&B combat system online with many people at the same time.
MMOs ofc have requirements much more demanding, but the hardest part is doing combat right. This seems to be resolved in Warband, so hopefully it will serve as a platform for developing a real-time FPS MMO with similar combat. It might never manage to support the numbers DFO can support but, hey, other current AAA class MMO games can't handle that either.
I've stuck it out about a month and my character is very strong. It's all about how much time you want to invest and how much you care about being a solo beast in pvp.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/3011051#3011051
Generation P
Perhaps I'm in a minority in that I both suck at pvp and can only play causally, but I'm still really enjoying DF. It helps having joined a great clan of helpful people (I mean as in advice etc, not in they constantly give me free stuff). I don't think of the grind as I don't grind.
I play and my skills go up as I play, depending on what I'm doing at the time. Sure, I'll always be behind the majority of the playerbase perhaps, and I do get shafted out in the wilds on a regular basis, but it's those times when I make that miraculous escape, or I'm crouched behind cover as a warband rides pass without seeing me that make DF a great game for me right now.
High level skills and pvp will come in time, and I'm in no rush.
You could of avoided those issues if you were actually social in a mmo.
Remember that this isnt a single player game and meet up with people. Wanna kill goblins? join up with some other newbs and have a goodtime.
Honestly a vet is going to have an issue when 10-15 newbs are firing shit at him.
Speak to people, team up, make friends in game, join a clan so you can safely skill up in a defended area.
Seriously? are you all new to these types of games?
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
It's quite the catch-22
Game developers set out to create a player controlled world in hopes of making a successful game....but in their effort to increase their player base (and revenue), the players in the game are driving other players out thus taking new subs away from the developer.
What do you do to get more players in your player driven game? Give them newbie protection till they level up to be competitive? Nah....that's too carebear. Let's keep letting them ganked while viewing their bank box.
Withing a few weeks you can contribute to group PvP. Within a few months you can solo PvP with reasonable success. If you don't want to work for your power then you should play a regular FPS instead of a MMO.
If you don't think the games skill based then try fighting a vet thats playing on a newbie character w/ the same skill levels as you. You'll still get your face beat in. Skill is an important swing factor along with stats... again if you don't want even a partially stat based game then play a regular FPS.
Stop demanding everything NOW NOW NOW and you might actually enjoy yourself and take pride in a character once you build it up to a respectable strength. That's suppose to be what MMOs are all about.
Agreed. Imo you should need something to work toward, a goal and raising skills is an easy one to focus on.
Dont want to raise skills? why are you in the mmo genre? You either level or raise skills overtime here guys.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
This is a game, as with any mmo, of skill progression. The way to counteract ones lack of skill is to be social and grow yourself in the meantime. Unfortunately, many come into any competitive arena whether it be a sport, education, job, or entertainment without skill or familiarity thinking they're entitled to be as proficient as another that has earned their familiarity, or skill by involvement, engagement and working for it, or in this case, gaming for it.
Skill gains in DF come with involvement and use, and it really doesnt come that hard over a short period of time.
I have only been playing a few weeks and yeah you have to raise your skills and your character isn't as developed as someone who has played for a year it is still fun. I can only play an hour or two a day if I am lucky and have no issue with the game. It is exactly as stated and if anyone expects different then maybe they misinterpret what is written. I have helped in pvp against groups, died and still had fun. I have been killed by way older toons and that is just part of the game. It is called paying your dues and developing your toons is part of an MMO. There are plenty of games that supply your killing starting out as equals provided and I am not sure why someone that doesn't like this, doesn't just go play them. I don't go to other games and expect sieging in a genre that it wouldn't be expected. If it is losing the gear that is an issue then there are other MMOs that cater to this aspect of gaming.
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awesome post. I agree with your points in the way you presented them. I just disagree that changing the Stat system is the answer.
When the game started Mana Missile dealt 2X the damage, even a lot more with intensify. If they made Mana Missile back to the way it was we it may help offset the insane difference in starting players.
I believe in Adjusting skills and adding Low level spells and abilities for lower skilled and stat players to be effective and have a chance.
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