Looking back at my own post, I think it has a lot to do with the quality of that content. I mean, just because there's enough to level up on doesn't mean I want to level up on it. That's where you combine polish with content - something that Vanguard, IMO, never had. I hated that game from the first 5 minutes and never bothered to touch it again because of how absolutely atrocious its level of polish was. Nothing about it made me want to explore any further - I just logged off in disgust.
Like I touched on - it's about the overall feel of something. Some games just feel right, and others don't. It's a combination of things, from music, to animations, to the overall art theme of the game having a certain flow, where the characters fit the environment and nothing feels just out of place. Sounds have to be there, appropriately themed to the world. Things like ambient sound are often just tossed into a game as part of the soundtrack, and as an audiophile nothing drives me crazier than to have that lack of directional feeling to sounds. There's just a lot that goes into it that so many games released these days just fail at, and that goes beyond just the MMO genre...
Edit to add: +1 Heerobya. Some nice points indeed.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
Awesome post Heerobya! I agree with every single point you make.
So how do we create a new age of MMO that focuses on the experience, the fun, and the intrinsic value of enjoying the game?
instead of being told by developers that we want to complete quest A for Y experience and loot and we should go after Achievements 1-46 and make sure to walk not run...
and for the love of god someone make a sandbox MMO without FFA PvP.
That, I feel, would be a more productive discussion then analyzing the failures of the genre, but instead to give suggestion of how to create a better way forward?
I'll start-
I create a AAA quality, polished, complete MMO that is fantasy/sci-fi your choice, that has no levels or skills to grind, and all the gear is cosmetic (no stats) and everything in the game is available as soon as you create your character:
-epic solo and group story-quests and vast multi-chapter story arcs
-awesome combat system focusing on player skill and strategy and is perfectly balanced
-super cool solo, group, and large group instances and dungeons
-endless exploration and discovery
-either fully consual PvP that is perfectly balanced or full FFA your choice
-amazing super cool crafting and property ownership and construction/housing personalization
-tons of purely social aspects like singing, dancing, decorating, hairstyling etc. and politics/government
-anything and everything else YOU want in the game, expect for the above underlined (no levels/skills/stat-based-gear)
Like I touched on - it's about the overall feel of something. Some games just feel right, and others don't. It's a combination of things, from music, to animations, to the overall art theme of the game having a certain flow, where the characters fit the environment and nothing feels just out of place. Sounds have to be there, appropriately themed to the world. Things like ambient sound are often just tossed into a game as part of the soundtrack, and as an audiophile nothing drives me crazier than to have that lack of directional feeling to sounds. There's just a lot that goes into it that so many games released these days just fail at, and that goes beyond just the MMO genre...
Unfortunately these things are part of what creates an experience, not simply a game, and far too often developers don't give enough time to the experience and too much to what they feel would be the part of the game we should enjoy most.
I am asking, if you take away the achievements and the titles and the uber-cool loot epics and awesome stats and everything that makes one player "better" then another by anything other then their skill at playing the game...
and are left with.. whatever you want but just a game where the rewards for playing are simply that it is a fun game to play...
One of the points of mmorpg's is character progression in some form or other, without that wouldnt the game be rts, fps whatever you want to call it?
Would it?
I've never heard of a "role playing game" being defined as something where you HAVE to have statistical, numerical based progression....
What if you "progressed" by becoming active socially in the game through guilds, property ownership, or pvp (or pve) based terriotry control?
Or you "progressed" by having fancy looking shiny new armor and weapons? who says those new weapons and armors HAVE to be "armor+1" instead of just..... different looking?
Do you need armor+1 to prove to people you defeated a special boss and looted it? Wouldn't wearing it be proof enough without the +1?
Would simply DOING it and HAVING it be enough to keep you interested and entertained, or do you NEED the numerical stat progression?
So as a new player, you start the game with the abilites of a Pawn in the game of Chess.
You can move forward one space and attack diagonally one space.
The more you play, the more you PROGRESS, you can start moving and attacking like a Rook in addition to the abilities of the Pawn.. then you also gain the ability to move and strike diagonally over long distances like a Bishop...
The point is, yes that'd be a terrible game lol chess 2010!!!
but no, I digress, the point is, you NEVER gain "Pawn movement +1"
It's horizontal progression - you gain new abilities and equipment that alters your strategy and what you are capable of, but everything has trade offs and everything has weaknesses and there are no "upgrades" only side-grades.
So your character will grow and progress in terms of power and ability and strategy available to you, but you will never get a stronger "pawn attack 1" then the newbie who starts with it too.
let's use a more commonly known example that is easier to understand in terms of a MMO-
World of Warcraft -
Let's say, when you level up you don't gain any new stats, but you do gain new abilities.
As you keep leveling, you don't EVER gain upgrades to the abilities you already have, and you don't gain any stats so the abilities you have never get any better.
So a newbie mage would have a Fireblast spell and a Frostbolt spell.
A mid-level mage would have the same stats as the newbie, but would also have Polymorph and an AoE attack like Blizzard and maybe a utility spell like Conjur food/water in addition to the Fireblast and Frostbolt spell.
A max-level mage would have the same stats as the newbie and the mid-level mage, and all the same abilities as the the mid-level mage but they'd ALSO have Blink, Teleport, Dispel, Spell Steal, and a Spell Reflect.
All three mages Fireblast would do say 13-18 damage and an additional 2 damage per second for 5 seconds total.
In a straight nuking fight, things would be 100% even. But the mid level mage could polymorph the noob to prevent them from casting for a bit, and they'd have an AoE spell to hit multiple characters at once.
Then the veteran would have all those same abilities too, but they could spell reflect the mid-level mages polymorph and then Blink themselves out of range to use their food/water they conjured earlier to heal up a bit mid-battle.....
The point I am trying to illustrate -
You add depth and strategy WITHOUT having to add increasing numerical values.
So horizontal instead of vertical progression, yes i would support that model. I already play Eve which has some vertical progression (with diminishing returns) but mostly horizontal progression. BUT, it would have to be fun and either have the tools for the players to do things or have things for players to do.
So horizontal instead of vertical progression, yes i would support that model. I already play Eve which has some vertical progression (with diminishing returns) but mostly horizontal progression. BUT, it would have to be fun and either have the tools for the players to do things or have things for players to do.
As an EVE player myself I definitely agree that it is a mix of horizontal and verticle progression.
My biggest beef is that you have no control over the time it take to progress... you put a skill in your queue, oh crap it's 3D 1H 26M 43S so what do you have to do till that skill trains?
Well, I could mine some more... that's fun.. do randomly generated PvE combat missions.... what a grind for ISK... and unless I'm in a good corp, no one is going to take a Rifter pilot and trying to go PvP solo is just suicide 99% of the time until you have at least a few million SP...
I just feel like I spend more time waiting then I do playing and that's not fun at all for me. If I want to sit and play for 8 hours straight, I want to progress my character more then making some ISK and seeing if I can make my eyes and ears bleed from boredom waiting for Frigate IV to train so I can fly a new ship....
And then once again, it's all about the numbers.
Tier 2 ships, Tier 2 weapons and equipment for ships, tier 2 ammo! all of it $$$$ so many millions of ISK...
I don't want to wait 2 months to get enough skills and ISK to be self-sufficient enough to run L4 combat missions in a Battleship and make a decent profit harvesting in an ORE ship to FINALLY be able to join a good corp... and then sit around ganking randoms or being ganked by randoms in 0.0 sec while I.. you guessed it... do L4 combat missions and do some harvesting... and EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE get involved in an awesome and cool group versus group territory PvP war.
Cheap shallow, instanced, solo player, heavily instanced, linear, quest driven, and lack of challenge/depth/length. There you have it right there. To top it off, greed with double dipping item shop on top of a sub.
Now me, I'm a big fan of time based training, it allows me to progress when i am asleep, when i am working, when i am playing something else, its great for casual players. It also shows the company behind the game is in it for the long haul, they aren't wanting quick profits and go down to maintenance. Its also a great leveler in that the people that can play 14 hours a day will only progress faster in terms of learning the game and making game money and it cuts out leveling services and macro's to skill.
I'll try anything. The key is whether it is fun, captivating, immersive and able to hold my attention for months or more.
I personally don't have a problem with number/statistic based progression, although I would try a system that doesn't have this just to see how it works.
I think the key is making it less a job/chore/grind and more of a natural aspect of everything else I am doing in the game.
Overhype of the game creates certain expectations which generally can't realisticly be met in the timeframes presented. Games based of established IP's generally can't capture the whole of the IP and leave alot of the fans disappointed. On top of that the devs vision of the IP is just that their personal vision of the IP which will differ from just about everyone elses vision of the IP. Investors and publishers/producers expect a return on their investments soon as possible tightening already tight time restraints and budgets. Throw in feature creep and the fact that no matter how simple something seems it's never that easy to actually impliment in such a way that it meshes with everything already in place and the stuff that is about to emerge from the pipeline.
Now we come to us the end users. Generally speaking most of the time we can't evan agree amougnst ourselves what we actually want from a game. Those vets amounst us have tried so many different MMO's that they can barely find anything original anymore and new releases tend to get distilled down to this system is like this one in this game and these other systems seem pretty similar to the same game hence this new game is a badly done clone of this game. That and as they move further away from their first MMO they tend to forget the bits that annoyed them in that game and the reasons they left and remember the good bits. Hence we get the why don't they make this game like this other old game I used to play line of thought or this will fail because it's nothing like this older game before it was ruined by such and such expansion.
We are much less forgiving of a new games lacks and seem to be expecting a new game to release in 4 years with the same level of content and polish of a game thats had over 10 years of constant updates and live playtesting. We also seem less able to take our time with a new release and explore what the devs have created. Instead we focus on end-game from day one and wonder why it doesn't really exist when we get there in a few weeks cause we have fallen for the trap that the real game doesn't start till end-game.
So there we go sure there is fault to be found on the devs and publishers as to why recent releases havn't taken off as expected but there is plenty of fault in us and our levels of expectation and general jadishness. I am sure those who are new to MMO's have a much rosier outlook on what the current crop of MMO's is like but we won't find them here on these forums as they are too busy playing an MMO to care about us.
The lesser of two evils is still evil.
There is nothing more dangerous than a true believer.
I'll try anything. The key is whether it is fun, captivating, immersive and able to hold my attention for months or more. I think the key is making it less a job/chore/grind and more of a natural aspect of everything else I am doing in the game.
I would agree. You need to take the focus off of the reward - the achievement, the title, the loot.. and instead make the focus about the experience itself and making it fun!
So let's try another experiment - another line of thought here -
Would you do quests if they had NO reward - no bonus XP and no bonus items or money, just the "natural" xp/rewards from completing the objectives of said quest?
If they were truly just ENTIRELY about the story, the characters involved in that story, and the cool places you get to go for the quest and experiences you get to have, with NO reward for completing them other then the fact that the quest itself was fun and interesting?
Probably most if not many would answer yes they would, with only the "hardcore achievers" who I imagine would say "no, i'll just grind mobs to get to the top fast if quests don't speed things up any."
Now here is another question -
Let's assume you like to do group PvE content, be it small group or large group (raids)
Would you still want to do small group / raid content if there were NO additional rewards for doing so outside of the enjoyment of the content?
No special titles or mounts, no "better" armor and weapons, no "tiered" raid gear progression, nothing but bragging rights and the fun/entertainment from doing it?
...I still can't see why they are supposed to be a fail. AoC, WaR, Aion - all have somewhere +100k subs. How does this can not be considered as success?
Right, those games 100+ subs in the US markets? LOL not.
Its more about the degree of success . Theres games that fail and games that achieve the kind of success which keeps them profitable but not on a par with Warcraft . A game does'nt need to have 12 million subs to be a success .
Originally posted by heerobya Originally posted by elocke I'll try anything. The key is whether it is fun, captivating, immersive and able to hold my attention for months or more. I think the key is making it less a job/chore/grind and more of a natural aspect of everything else I am doing in the game.
I would agree. You need to take the focus off of the reward - the achievement, the title, the loot.. and instead make the focus about the experience itself and making it fun! So let's try another experiment - another line of thought here - Would you do quests if they had NO reward - no bonus XP and no bonus items or money, just the "natural" xp/rewards from completing the objectives of said quest? If they were truly just ENTIRELY about the story, the characters involved in that story, and the cool places you get to go for the quest and experiences you get to have, with NO reward for completing them other then the fact that the quest itself was fun and interesting?
Probably most if not many would answer yes they would, with only the "hardcore achievers" who I imagine would say "no, i'll just grind mobs to get to the top fast if quests don't speed things up any." Now here is another question - Let's assume you like to do group PvE content, be it small group or large group (raids)
Would you still want to do small group / raid content if there were NO additional rewards for doing so outside of the enjoyment of the content?
No special titles or mounts, no "better" armor and weapons, no "tiered" raid gear progression, nothing but bragging rights and the fun/entertainment from doing it?
As much as I agree with most of what you say. Here is where I differ. I actually enjoy the questing scheme of games like WoW, Lotro, VG, and EQ2. I also ONLY group to get something I want, most of the time it is to get a group quest done. Also, achievements should not be overlooked, I know many people including myself who do these like they are crack. OCD and all that when it comes to achievements. Part of the problem though, is lack of reward for those achievements beyond bragging rights. I want a reward for my effort.
Now that reward can be done GW style, where you get skills you can actually use. My personal favorite type of reward. Or it can be the final cutscene of that huge story arc you've been on, ala FFXI style. Another favorite of mine.
Overall, I would have to say I still need a "reason" to group with people. But that's just me.
Now me, I'm a big fan of time based training, it allows me to progress when i am asleep, when i am working, when i am playing something else, its great for casual players. It also shows the company behind the game is in it for the long haul, they aren't wanting quick profits and go down to maintenance. Its also a great leveler in that the people that can play 14 hours a day will only progress faster in terms of learning the game and making game money and it cuts out leveling services and macro's to skill.
I underlined the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. You do realize you just said you liked paying to play a game that you don't actually want to play to progress? That isn't for "casual players" that is for someone retarded. Why pay to play something that levels you without actually playing? I can't get over how absurd that is.
I will never get some people. It is called a "game" for a reason. You know they are bought to be enjoyed and "played". IF you don't have time to actually PLAY it then there is no sense in purchasing it. I will sell you a car that I can drive for you. You can be a "casual" driver, what is great is you don't have to actually drive it .. I will and put the miles on for you.
Instead of buying a game that you feel you have to pay to be offline while it skips content you don't have time for. Why not find something in life games or what not that you can play and enjoy in the time you have? Instead of thinking is is so great to be able to advance offline, why not play that you do have time to actually play?
New games are failing because they are crap. Look at Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Aion, Warhammer Online, Age of Conan. They were all hyped either by players or developers or both and they all turned out to be crap.
no sir there not crap far far from it they are just what they were ment to be fast cheaply made mmo's to hit the market with stunning speed piggy bank up a nice lump of cash very quickly and sold off or left to rot in there own lost luster
no sir its not the deva's fault we the gamers have let this happen we the gamers dump money into these games and alot of time with pre orders befor the games ever seen
the speed in which gamers are willing to open the wallets for these "new" mmo's has shown the game dev's a new path to faster return
if a super hype game can bring in a green profit line in the first 2 months of release while taking less than 6 months to make why push on with the game ? why put more money into it knowing the return will never be as good as the first 3-6 months ?
will we close our wallets to sub par games ? of course not , and so we enter this new ugly stage of fly by nite mmo games that set great hype fuel our expectations and drop us on our faces upon release .
the world of great mmo's will most likely never grace the web again and if it does will any of us still be gamers? will we sate our gameing needs on junk/hype mmo's keep playing keep the gaming spark alive in the hope a year 2 years 3 down the road the mmo's grow new life
my expectations at this point are very low for a return of the mmo
We can blame only ourselves. Why? Because if I would know bunch of suckers that will buy my product just because I said it's good I would suck them dry. This is happening with all new mmorpgs lately and people are still preordering! Hell, people are preordering Xsyon (or something like that) without even seeing ingame footage. Couple of screens and bunch of features posted on main site is enough for them to spend some cash.
Preorder? - something is wrong with game Lifetime subs before launch? - just stay away
Unless the mentality of gamers who buy games only based on hype don't change, developers won't stop doing crap.
People expect the same content and pollish they know from games that have been around for years. This is a huge part of the problem as this can not be delivered at release. People are expecting to much because games are overhyped.
But even more important is the fact that all these games feel like just another MMO, why leave my high level character in a polish3ed world that took months of dedication to start all over again? Low level character play in MMO's that have no fresh mechanismes (like TCoS, AoC do) is boring compared to the flashy game play of the high level characters people where used in that other game. Even worse, there has never been released a game that gave you that Amazing cool experience of entering an online world for the first time.
Currently WoW is the most complete game... new games that copy the WoW style have no chance... they need to be different to make big sales...
Spellborn and AoC where different enough to make a difference, but they where both released in a state not fit for release as they where both push forward by financial problems. AoC has somewhat recovered and is a great game by now.(but still needs a lot of work, but then MMO's allways need a lot of work and are never finished) Spellborn has vanished and is currently being redeveloped by Aclaim
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Not everyone gets to play 14 hours a day 7 days a week 52 weeks a year. Yes i like progressing when i am doing other things as well. That's my opinion, you obviously differ.
Comments
BTW, your sig... is the best ever.
Looking back at my own post, I think it has a lot to do with the quality of that content. I mean, just because there's enough to level up on doesn't mean I want to level up on it. That's where you combine polish with content - something that Vanguard, IMO, never had. I hated that game from the first 5 minutes and never bothered to touch it again because of how absolutely atrocious its level of polish was. Nothing about it made me want to explore any further - I just logged off in disgust.
Like I touched on - it's about the overall feel of something. Some games just feel right, and others don't. It's a combination of things, from music, to animations, to the overall art theme of the game having a certain flow, where the characters fit the environment and nothing feels just out of place. Sounds have to be there, appropriately themed to the world. Things like ambient sound are often just tossed into a game as part of the soundtrack, and as an audiophile nothing drives me crazier than to have that lack of directional feeling to sounds. There's just a lot that goes into it that so many games released these days just fail at, and that goes beyond just the MMO genre...
Edit to add: +1 Heerobya. Some nice points indeed.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
So how do we create a new age of MMO that focuses on the experience, the fun, and the intrinsic value of enjoying the game?
instead of being told by developers that we want to complete quest A for Y experience and loot and we should go after Achievements 1-46 and make sure to walk not run...
and for the love of god someone make a sandbox MMO without FFA PvP.
That, I feel, would be a more productive discussion then analyzing the failures of the genre, but instead to give suggestion of how to create a better way forward?
I'll start-
I create a AAA quality, polished, complete MMO that is fantasy/sci-fi your choice, that has no levels or skills to grind, and all the gear is cosmetic (no stats) and everything in the game is available as soon as you create your character:
-epic solo and group story-quests and vast multi-chapter story arcs
-awesome combat system focusing on player skill and strategy and is perfectly balanced
-super cool solo, group, and large group instances and dungeons
-endless exploration and discovery
-either fully consual PvP that is perfectly balanced or full FFA your choice
-amazing super cool crafting and property ownership and construction/housing personalization
-tons of purely social aspects like singing, dancing, decorating, hairstyling etc. and politics/government
-anything and everything else YOU want in the game, expect for the above underlined (no levels/skills/stat-based-gear)
Would you play this game?
Depends, would it deliver in terms of fun?
F2P/P2P excellent thread.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/282517/F2P-An-Engineers-perspective.html
Unfortunately these things are part of what creates an experience, not simply a game, and far too often developers don't give enough time to the experience and too much to what they feel would be the part of the game we should enjoy most.
Depends, would it deliver in terms of fun?
Well that's the point -
I am asking, if you take away the achievements and the titles and the uber-cool loot epics and awesome stats and everything that makes one player "better" then another by anything other then their skill at playing the game...
and are left with.. whatever you want but just a game where the rewards for playing are simply that it is a fun game to play...
Would you still play without the rewards?
One of the points of mmorpg's is character progression in some form or other, without that wouldnt the game be rts, fps whatever you want to call it?
F2P/P2P excellent thread.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/282517/F2P-An-Engineers-perspective.html
Would it?
I've never heard of a "role playing game" being defined as something where you HAVE to have statistical, numerical based progression....
What if you "progressed" by becoming active socially in the game through guilds, property ownership, or pvp (or pve) based terriotry control?
Or you "progressed" by having fancy looking shiny new armor and weapons? who says those new weapons and armors HAVE to be "armor+1" instead of just..... different looking?
Do you need armor+1 to prove to people you defeated a special boss and looted it? Wouldn't wearing it be proof enough without the +1?
Would simply DOING it and HAVING it be enough to keep you interested and entertained, or do you NEED the numerical stat progression?
What about....
let's make a comparison.
So as a new player, you start the game with the abilites of a Pawn in the game of Chess.
You can move forward one space and attack diagonally one space.
The more you play, the more you PROGRESS, you can start moving and attacking like a Rook in addition to the abilities of the Pawn.. then you also gain the ability to move and strike diagonally over long distances like a Bishop...
The point is, yes that'd be a terrible game lol chess 2010!!!
but no, I digress, the point is, you NEVER gain "Pawn movement +1"
It's horizontal progression - you gain new abilities and equipment that alters your strategy and what you are capable of, but everything has trade offs and everything has weaknesses and there are no "upgrades" only side-grades.
So your character will grow and progress in terms of power and ability and strategy available to you, but you will never get a stronger "pawn attack 1" then the newbie who starts with it too.
Make sense?
let's use a more commonly known example that is easier to understand in terms of a MMO-
World of Warcraft -
Let's say, when you level up you don't gain any new stats, but you do gain new abilities.
As you keep leveling, you don't EVER gain upgrades to the abilities you already have, and you don't gain any stats so the abilities you have never get any better.
So a newbie mage would have a Fireblast spell and a Frostbolt spell.
A mid-level mage would have the same stats as the newbie, but would also have Polymorph and an AoE attack like Blizzard and maybe a utility spell like Conjur food/water in addition to the Fireblast and Frostbolt spell.
A max-level mage would have the same stats as the newbie and the mid-level mage, and all the same abilities as the the mid-level mage but they'd ALSO have Blink, Teleport, Dispel, Spell Steal, and a Spell Reflect.
All three mages Fireblast would do say 13-18 damage and an additional 2 damage per second for 5 seconds total.
In a straight nuking fight, things would be 100% even. But the mid level mage could polymorph the noob to prevent them from casting for a bit, and they'd have an AoE spell to hit multiple characters at once.
Then the veteran would have all those same abilities too, but they could spell reflect the mid-level mages polymorph and then Blink themselves out of range to use their food/water they conjured earlier to heal up a bit mid-battle.....
The point I am trying to illustrate -
You add depth and strategy WITHOUT having to add increasing numerical values.
So horizontal instead of vertical progression, yes i would support that model. I already play Eve which has some vertical progression (with diminishing returns) but mostly horizontal progression. BUT, it would have to be fun and either have the tools for the players to do things or have things for players to do.
F2P/P2P excellent thread.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/282517/F2P-An-Engineers-perspective.html
As an EVE player myself I definitely agree that it is a mix of horizontal and verticle progression.
My biggest beef is that you have no control over the time it take to progress... you put a skill in your queue, oh crap it's 3D 1H 26M 43S so what do you have to do till that skill trains?
Well, I could mine some more... that's fun.. do randomly generated PvE combat missions.... what a grind for ISK... and unless I'm in a good corp, no one is going to take a Rifter pilot and trying to go PvP solo is just suicide 99% of the time until you have at least a few million SP...
I just feel like I spend more time waiting then I do playing and that's not fun at all for me. If I want to sit and play for 8 hours straight, I want to progress my character more then making some ISK and seeing if I can make my eyes and ears bleed from boredom waiting for Frigate IV to train so I can fly a new ship....
And then once again, it's all about the numbers.
Tier 2 ships, Tier 2 weapons and equipment for ships, tier 2 ammo! all of it $$$$ so many millions of ISK...
I don't want to wait 2 months to get enough skills and ISK to be self-sufficient enough to run L4 combat missions in a Battleship and make a decent profit harvesting in an ORE ship to FINALLY be able to join a good corp... and then sit around ganking randoms or being ganked by randoms in 0.0 sec while I.. you guessed it... do L4 combat missions and do some harvesting... and EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE get involved in an awesome and cool group versus group territory PvP war.
Cheap shallow, instanced, solo player, heavily instanced, linear, quest driven, and lack of challenge/depth/length. There you have it right there. To top it off, greed with double dipping item shop on top of a sub.
Now me, I'm a big fan of time based training, it allows me to progress when i am asleep, when i am working, when i am playing something else, its great for casual players. It also shows the company behind the game is in it for the long haul, they aren't wanting quick profits and go down to maintenance. Its also a great leveler in that the people that can play 14 hours a day will only progress faster in terms of learning the game and making game money and it cuts out leveling services and macro's to skill.
F2P/P2P excellent thread.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/282517/F2P-An-Engineers-perspective.html
[/quote]
Would you play this game? [/b][/quote]
I'll try anything. The key is whether it is fun, captivating, immersive and able to hold my attention for months or more.
I personally don't have a problem with number/statistic based progression, although I would try a system that doesn't have this just to see how it works.
I think the key is making it less a job/chore/grind and more of a natural aspect of everything else I am doing in the game.
It's a combination of things.
Overhype of the game creates certain expectations which generally can't realisticly be met in the timeframes presented. Games based of established IP's generally can't capture the whole of the IP and leave alot of the fans disappointed. On top of that the devs vision of the IP is just that their personal vision of the IP which will differ from just about everyone elses vision of the IP. Investors and publishers/producers expect a return on their investments soon as possible tightening already tight time restraints and budgets. Throw in feature creep and the fact that no matter how simple something seems it's never that easy to actually impliment in such a way that it meshes with everything already in place and the stuff that is about to emerge from the pipeline.
Now we come to us the end users. Generally speaking most of the time we can't evan agree amougnst ourselves what we actually want from a game. Those vets amounst us have tried so many different MMO's that they can barely find anything original anymore and new releases tend to get distilled down to this system is like this one in this game and these other systems seem pretty similar to the same game hence this new game is a badly done clone of this game. That and as they move further away from their first MMO they tend to forget the bits that annoyed them in that game and the reasons they left and remember the good bits. Hence we get the why don't they make this game like this other old game I used to play line of thought or this will fail because it's nothing like this older game before it was ruined by such and such expansion.
We are much less forgiving of a new games lacks and seem to be expecting a new game to release in 4 years with the same level of content and polish of a game thats had over 10 years of constant updates and live playtesting. We also seem less able to take our time with a new release and explore what the devs have created. Instead we focus on end-game from day one and wonder why it doesn't really exist when we get there in a few weeks cause we have fallen for the trap that the real game doesn't start till end-game.
So there we go sure there is fault to be found on the devs and publishers as to why recent releases havn't taken off as expected but there is plenty of fault in us and our levels of expectation and general jadishness. I am sure those who are new to MMO's have a much rosier outlook on what the current crop of MMO's is like but we won't find them here on these forums as they are too busy playing an MMO to care about us.
The lesser of two evils is still evil.
There is nothing more dangerous than a true believer.
I would agree. You need to take the focus off of the reward - the achievement, the title, the loot.. and instead make the focus about the experience itself and making it fun!
So let's try another experiment - another line of thought here -
Would you do quests if they had NO reward - no bonus XP and no bonus items or money, just the "natural" xp/rewards from completing the objectives of said quest?
If they were truly just ENTIRELY about the story, the characters involved in that story, and the cool places you get to go for the quest and experiences you get to have, with NO reward for completing them other then the fact that the quest itself was fun and interesting?
Probably most if not many would answer yes they would, with only the "hardcore achievers" who I imagine would say "no, i'll just grind mobs to get to the top fast if quests don't speed things up any."
Now here is another question -
Let's assume you like to do group PvE content, be it small group or large group (raids)
Would you still want to do small group / raid content if there were NO additional rewards for doing so outside of the enjoyment of the content?
No special titles or mounts, no "better" armor and weapons, no "tiered" raid gear progression, nothing but bragging rights and the fun/entertainment from doing it?
Right, those games 100+ subs in the US markets? LOL not.
Its more about the degree of success . Theres games that fail and games that achieve the kind of success which keeps them profitable but not on a par with Warcraft . A game does'nt need to have 12 million subs to be a success .
I would agree. You need to take the focus off of the reward - the achievement, the title, the loot.. and instead make the focus about the experience itself and making it fun!
So let's try another experiment - another line of thought here -
Would you do quests if they had NO reward - no bonus XP and no bonus items or money, just the "natural" xp/rewards from completing the objectives of said quest?
If they were truly just ENTIRELY about the story, the characters involved in that story, and the cool places you get to go for the quest and experiences you get to have, with NO reward for completing them other then the fact that the quest itself was fun and interesting?
Probably most if not many would answer yes they would, with only the "hardcore achievers" who I imagine would say "no, i'll just grind mobs to get to the top fast if quests don't speed things up any."
Now here is another question -
Let's assume you like to do group PvE content, be it small group or large group (raids)
Would you still want to do small group / raid content if there were NO additional rewards for doing so outside of the enjoyment of the content?
No special titles or mounts, no "better" armor and weapons, no "tiered" raid gear progression, nothing but bragging rights and the fun/entertainment from doing it?
As much as I agree with most of what you say. Here is where I differ. I actually enjoy the questing scheme of games like WoW, Lotro, VG, and EQ2. I also ONLY group to get something I want, most of the time it is to get a group quest done. Also, achievements should not be overlooked, I know many people including myself who do these like they are crack. OCD and all that when it comes to achievements. Part of the problem though, is lack of reward for those achievements beyond bragging rights. I want a reward for my effort.
Now that reward can be done GW style, where you get skills you can actually use. My personal favorite type of reward. Or it can be the final cutscene of that huge story arc you've been on, ala FFXI style. Another favorite of mine.
Overall, I would have to say I still need a "reason" to group with people. But that's just me.
I underlined the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. You do realize you just said you liked paying to play a game that you don't actually want to play to progress? That isn't for "casual players" that is for someone retarded. Why pay to play something that levels you without actually playing? I can't get over how absurd that is.
I will never get some people. It is called a "game" for a reason. You know they are bought to be enjoyed and "played". IF you don't have time to actually PLAY it then there is no sense in purchasing it. I will sell you a car that I can drive for you. You can be a "casual" driver, what is great is you don't have to actually drive it .. I will and put the miles on for you.
Instead of buying a game that you feel you have to pay to be offline while it skips content you don't have time for. Why not find something in life games or what not that you can play and enjoy in the time you have? Instead of thinking is is so great to be able to advance offline, why not play that you do have time to actually play?
New games are failing because they are crap. Look at Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Aion, Warhammer Online, Age of Conan. They were all hyped either by players or developers or both and they all turned out to be crap.
no sir there not crap far far from it they are just what they were ment to be fast cheaply made mmo's to hit the market with stunning speed piggy bank up a nice lump of cash very quickly and sold off or left to rot in there own lost luster
no sir its not the deva's fault we the gamers have let this happen we the gamers dump money into these games and alot of time with pre orders befor the games ever seen
the speed in which gamers are willing to open the wallets for these "new" mmo's has shown the game dev's a new path to faster return
if a super hype game can bring in a green profit line in the first 2 months of release while taking less than 6 months to make why push on with the game ? why put more money into it knowing the return will never be as good as the first 3-6 months ?
will we close our wallets to sub par games ? of course not , and so we enter this new ugly stage of fly by nite mmo games that set great hype fuel our expectations and drop us on our faces upon release .
the world of great mmo's will most likely never grace the web again and if it does will any of us still be gamers? will we sate our gameing needs on junk/hype mmo's keep playing keep the gaming spark alive in the hope a year 2 years 3 down the road the mmo's grow new life
my expectations at this point are very low for a return of the mmo
We can blame only ourselves.
Why? Because if I would know bunch of suckers that will buy my product just because I said it's good I would suck them dry. This is happening with all new mmorpgs lately and people are still preordering! Hell, people are preordering Xsyon (or something like that) without even seeing ingame footage. Couple of screens and bunch of features posted on main site is enough for them to spend some cash.
Preorder? - something is wrong with game
Lifetime subs before launch? - just stay away
Unless the mentality of gamers who buy games only based on hype don't change, developers won't stop doing crap.
People expect the same content and pollish they know from games that have been around for years. This is a huge part of the problem as this can not be delivered at release. People are expecting to much because games are overhyped.
But even more important is the fact that all these games feel like just another MMO, why leave my high level character in a polish3ed world that took months of dedication to start all over again? Low level character play in MMO's that have no fresh mechanismes (like TCoS, AoC do) is boring compared to the flashy game play of the high level characters people where used in that other game. Even worse, there has never been released a game that gave you that Amazing cool experience of entering an online world for the first time.
Currently WoW is the most complete game... new games that copy the WoW style have no chance... they need to be different to make big sales...
Spellborn and AoC where different enough to make a difference, but they where both released in a state not fit for release as they where both push forward by financial problems. AoC has somewhat recovered and is a great game by now.(but still needs a lot of work, but then MMO's allways need a lot of work and are never finished) Spellborn has vanished and is currently being redeveloped by Aclaim
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
@qombi
Not everyone gets to play 14 hours a day 7 days a week 52 weeks a year. Yes i like progressing when i am doing other things as well. That's my opinion, you obviously differ.
F2P/P2P excellent thread.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/282517/F2P-An-Engineers-perspective.html